Outbound Business Development With Christian Banach

Hey everyone, and welcome to this week's actionable episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast. This week we are talking all about lead generation and specifically outbound lead generation. I'm really excited to have my guest Christian Banach with me and he has a really different perception and a different view of lead generation to the one that I typically have. But that's one of the reasons why I love having guests on the podcast, because I don't always agree with them or I don't always have the same viewpoint, but their viewpoints are very valid and clearly working for them and their customers. So, so we're talking all about outbound lead generation, cold calling, cold emailing, and so on. So make sure you grab a pen and let's get on with the episode.

Accelerate your agency's profitable growth with tools, tips and value added interviews with your host agency owner and coach, Rob DaCosta.

This week's episode of the podcast is sponsored by Cloudways. Cloudways is a managed cloud hosting platform that is loved by agencies around the world. With Cloudways, agencies can focus on growing their clients whilst Cloudways takes care of all the hosting related complexities. Now, Cloudways is offering an exclusive discount for the Agency Accelerator podcast listeners. So visit cloudways.com and use the promo code agency15 to get 15% off for three months on the hosting plan of your choice. Hey everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of the Agency Accelerator. And we are talking all things business development, which is a topic that we've visited a number of times but is probably one of the most important topics that we can cover. And I'm really excited to have to have with me today Christian Banach. I hope I've pronounced your surname correctly, Christian. And Christian's been an agency owner, a sales team leader and a new business, business development. And his passion is reinvigorating agency leaders and empowering them with confidence in their future. Now I also noticed, Christian, that you were a concert promoter before that. So I'm really interested to learn how you made the leap from concert promoter to the agency world.

Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me. First and foremost, Rob, really looking forward to chatting with you here today. But yeah, my career, which I guess is not too different from a lot of people in the agency space. It wasn't something I necessarily set out to do. I started a business, as you had mentioned in high school, which really was came out of a need that I thought I was 16, 17 years old and going to some of the, what we call here, juice bars, so teen nightclubs no alcohol and was really just not happy with the music that was being played at these venues. So, so decided I was always entrepreneurial. So that the latest incarnation of my entrepreneurialism, even at that age was, you know what, I'm going to do one of these events on my own. So I gathered a bunch of friends together, we rented a banquet hall out, we booked the DJs that we thought were interesting and exciting and the result was we had a thousand people show up and the event went off incredibly well. So that led to the idea of let's do another one and then another one. And throughout college then those events grew from banquet halls into concert venues and eventually grew into working with artists like Lady Gaga and Pitbull and T Pain. So some really great award winning, you know, artists. And that's what the business was for the first, you know, I would say five, six, seven years. But I was then approached by an experiential marketing agency who had a local activation. I'm based in Chicago and they had something going on in Chicago. They got into a jam and they needed some people feet on the street to help with the activation. They knew we had concert promotion capabilities which lended itself well to this particular activation. And we said, heck, let's give it a shot. So we went out, we did it, executed it flawlessly for them. That led to then another activation and others and then other agencies found out about us and you know, so we were working directly with agencies for a while but then the light bulb went on is, you know, why are we working with the middleman here? Why don't we try to go directly to the brands ourselves? So fast forward, we ended up working with, you know, some great brands like Allstate and Toyota and we eventually that business became, you know, half of our business was the concert promotions and the other half was more of the corporate experiential and event marketing. So not something I set out to do, just sort of fell into it, but really, really loved it and it was really exciting. Especially when you're a concert promoter, you're putting your money on the line for all these events. So it was certainly a different way of going about things when you're using, you know, some more corporate dollars to produce some events.

So yeah, and I reckon a lot of people will be able to relate to your story not as a contract concert promoter, but just how circumstance and opportunity leads you in one direction. And I think a lot of people end up run agencies because they might have started off freelancing and it's grown. And they thought, oh, I need some extra resource, and so on and so on. So I just want to start with this question. So we're talking everything to do with business development today, and I want to see. I just said to Christian before we went on air that I suspect Christian and I have very similar outlook. So it'll be interesting to see if this is the case. So see if you can relate to this. I. When I meet a prospect, an agency prospect, and I ask them, how do you get your new business? Invariably they tell me they've got all their business through word of mouth and referral, and they're quite proud about that, puffing up their feathers. And of course, we all know there's some fundamental flaws with that and they've probably hit a brick wall, which is why they've come to talk to you or me. And is that something that you commonly see, that that's how they've relied on growing their agency up until the point they engage with you?

Yeah, yeah. I would say same. Same boat as you. You know, 95% of the agencies that I speak with have grown through word of mouth and referrals, and it's gotten them to a certain point. However, they inevitably do hit that brick wall and they're looking for other options on. On how to grow or, you know, they want to maybe be looking in growth in a certain direction or with a certain type of client, or they just need more leads. But inevitably, you know, at some point that. That, well, of referrals and word of mouth, you know, isn't sufficient any further.

Yeah, for sure. And as someone said to me the other day, which I thought was so true, is that word of mouth and referrals is not a strategy, it's just an opportunity. And it's great. And of course we want to nurture that and all the rest of it, but there's a whole bunch of pitfalls with it, including the quality of the leads and when those leads are going to come in. So you've met this agency. That's their starting point. What do you do with them next? What's your advice and what journey do you take them through to work out what they should be doing?

Yeah, yeah. So I think, again, I'm in the same boat. I think word of mouth referrals are a bonus is the way I look at it, you know, but it's not a strategy. So one of the first things that we do with our clients is really take a look at and audit the work and body of work that they've had and really try to understand what we call a pivotal problem. You know, what are, what is the challenge that these companies have been coming for you, to you, for you to solve? And we try to find commonalities then between those, those challenges and, and then from there, you know, identifying, you know, what are those pain points? Are you doing anything different in the marketplace with the way you're solving those, those challenges and those problems? And usually, you know, it's tough sometimes for most agencies to articulate that because they've never really thought about the challenges, you know, that, that, that they're actually solving. They know how they're solving them, the work that they're actually doing for, but they don't really know or they know, but they don't think about, you know, what is that challenge. So that's the first thing that we always do to start off with is do that audit and try to find some comm. And from there we could really start to build out a strategy around those pain points that clients are experiencing.

Yeah, and what's, I think, again, I think I know the answer to this, but what's your view on how niched or niched an agency should be when again, you might meet them and they might say, we're a, you know, we're a WordPress development agency and that's our niche. And it's like, yeah, is that really niche enough? I don't know. But what's your view on that?

Yeah, you know, I think when you're implementing more of an outbound, proactive strategy for new business, it's, it's really critical to, to have a niche, a specialization, and that might be a sector, you know, you're great at food and beverage, that could be a discipline of marketing. It could be regional, regionality. You know, you're great in a certain market, but usually it's, it's, it's a combination of all of those. I mean, there's just so many agencies that are out there all buying from the same level of business. And, you know, to really kind of break through these days, you really have to be an expert in something or even a couple areas. I don't know if you have to put all your eggs in exactly one basket, but you need at least 2, 3, 4 most, you know, special areas of specialization, you know, to really cut through because, you know, these clients are not going to want to work with a generalist agency in most, you know, situations. And, and maybe that was sufficient. When you're doing more of a word of mouth, you know, referral strategy because there's some level of trust and, and, and, and, and they know you through the referral so they're more willing to maybe give you some of that work. But if you're trying to get business from a cold prospect, you really have to demonstrate you're an expert at something or else they're not going to give you, you know, the, really the time of day.

Yeah, sure. I mean, and also if you're a generalist, then how do you differentiate yourself? Well, you differentiate yourself by being cheaper or by promising ridiculous levels of a recipe for disaster. Right?

Absolutely, absolutely.

So talk to me about some of the outbound communications that is work that works for agencies that you work with or some of the things that you're seeing working. Well now. What kind of tactics might you use?

Yeah, you know, it's really what we're seeing is it's a multi channel, multi touch based approach. You know, we really are big on cold email. We're still big on cold calling, but both, you know, used together, you know, because it's so easy these days for, you know, anybody to fire off an email and you know, because of that these executives inboxes are just flooded. So we also like to, to use the phone as a strategy. A lot of people say cold calling is dead. And that has not been, you know, our experience. You know, we're, when working with clients, we're setting a, and they're setting for themselves, you know, a large volume of calls still from, from the phone. But in addition, you know, it's just another touch point for more of an omnichannel type of approach where they may even respond to you via email. However, that voicemail that you left, you know, may influence them because it makes that you stand out from the hundreds of other emails that they may have received from another agency. And you know, the other thing is it's got to be multi touch as well. I talk with agencies a lot. That said, well, you know, we've experimented and we've worked some outbound programs before, but we just didn't get anything out of it. And when I kind of start peeling back the layers of the onion, I find out, you know, they may have fired off one email and you know, they sort of just expected business to just flow in from there where, you know, we're generally, you know, doing, you know, fairly aggressive sprints of, you know, seven, eight, nine touch points over the period of 30 days or less. And you know, what we're seeing is that that's just what it's going to take. It's because there's just again, so much noise, you know, in the marketplace place. And, and I think agencies should, should recognize that, you know, they're, you know, you would never just buy a TV ad and run it one time and just assume business is going to flow in. Right. You know, you're gonna, you need multiple touches in order to really start to build that awareness and get people to respond. So multi touch, multi channel is, is very important.

Yeah. And I think they, I mean, there's obviously lots of different stats on this, but you need to have like seven touch points with someone before they're going to engage with you. And like you say, if you're doing that from multiple ways, then you're much more likely to be heard. I think we live in an immediate world at the moment where we're, we want immediate results, we want immediate gratification and we're distracted by all of these things. And I see that as well, that someone's tried something and they've given up really quickly rather than recognizing that. Actually, I really need to stick with this. I always say, why do you think Coca Cola is continually advertising Coke on the tv? They don't just need to run one ad that you see once in your life and you'll buy Coke. They need to be front and mind at the exact moment you're thinking, I could really do with a Coke. And that's when it's, you're going to see the advert. So we need to apply that same sort of strategy to, to our marketing as well. And there any other, so that's. You talked about cold emailing, cold calling. Any other strategies that you're using with, with your agencies?

Yeah, I think a couple other things that has, have really come to light over the last couple years, especially is personalization in your outreach where I think when I was really starting to get heavy into outbound, you know, five, six years ago, you know, it was okay to kind of send out more of a mass email. Maybe you might tailor it to an industry, but you weren't tailoring it necessarily down to the company or the individual. However, that's what we're seeing, you know, in order to cut through these days so, you know, to kind of piggyback off your, you know, example of Coca Cola. If you're looking to win a soft drink company, you know, you might have a general email of kind of, you know, who you are, what you do, the offer you bring. But when you're reaching out to Coca Cola, you need to, you know, research them. And what, what is the CMO said, what is the CEO said? What are some of the challenges they're experiencing? And you need to personalize it to that particular company. If you're then going to reach out to Pepsi, Pepsi is going to have slightly different challenges than Coke, you know, are having. So you got to do the same level of research and then customize that message to Pepsi. It has to be unmistakable that, that your message was written directly for that company. Otherwise, again, in all of the sea of, you know, emails that these, you know, executives are getting, you're just going to be deleted. You know, you got to really look like it's a human sending, you know, message.

Really interesting. I'm running a workshop in November with a partner, and we're still working on it. But the theme of the workshop is how technology can help personalize your marketing. And I guess on the one if we think of one extreme of completely cold calling or cold contacting and the other extreme of very personalized, researched emails as you're. Or contacts as you're talking about, what does that middle ground look like and how can technology kind of help you expedite that? Because, you know, there's a lot of great tools out there to help you personalize this in a sort of pseudo way rather than, you know, spending hours just crafting one email that you might want to write. So you meet a client. What do you say to a client when they say to you, hey, Christian, we, we want to work with you, but we need business now. So we need some help from you right now because we've got this empty order book and mouths to feed.

Yeah, well, those types of clients I like to try to stay away from because, you know, as much as I wish I had a magic wand that, you know, was able to, you know, win business tomorrow, you know, that's just not the case. Right. You know, there is, you know, again, obviously, a little bit depends on the deal size that you're chasing. But, you know, we're typically working with, you know, agencies that are working and trying to get six and seven figure opportunities. So there's a sales cycle involved. You know, even if I was to get tomorrow, you know, the CMO of Coca Cola on the phone, you know, you're talking, you know, three, six, nine, maybe more, you know, months before they're ready, and there's nothing you can really do to speed, you know, that process up. You know, some of the lower ticket items, you know, there, there's a lower sales cycle involved in that so, so I think, you know, you have to go into, with a long term strategy, you know, I don't think to relate it, if you were taking an SEO strategy, you know, you would never, you know, engage, you know, an SEO program and expect, you know, the next day that, you know, you're going to post a blog and then business is just going to, you know, fly in and your Google rankings are going to go to number one. It takes time, you know. Now with that being said, I think compared to other strategies, you know, outbound is, you know, because it is more of a direct response, you know, you, you can really, you know, start generating those meetings, you know, very quickly, you know, but in terms of that converting into closed business, you know, that, that's something that's going to take, you know, a little bit of longer, longer time. But we, you know, we also advise our clients to, to really think about, we think of it almost like a baseball, you know, analogy, you know, try to get to first base first. And, and that's really that first meeting, that first conversation. But you have to go into that, you know, with second base in mind. And second base might be a smaller consulting project, you know, something, you know, very easy for them to buy. Don't expect to go from first meeting to an AOR opportunity right out of the gates. That's probably not going to happen. But if you can start with smaller, you know, engagements and then build trust along the way, that's a really great strategy to, you know, speed up that sales cycle, at least get some revenue incoming, you know, quicker than later. So we're working a lot of times our clients in that and really trying to think about what, what is that second base, you know, offer that you could be putting, putting out there.

Yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. I sometimes do an interesting piece of work with my clients where we use a time to conversion calculator to help them work out how long does it take from a lead coming into their world to actually converting into a client. And when they work that out, most people are really surprised. Like I did it for myself and I worked out that it was about 11 months. And that means, okay, if it's, if it's 11 months from someone figuring out, learning about who I am to buying from me, then what am I doing in that 11 month period to keep nurturing and moving that, that contact through the buyer's journey. And again, I think people live in an immediate world. But I kind of laughed when I asked you that question. You answered it like we try and stay away from them because I kind of do as well because, you know, probably quite quickly that they don't have very realistic expectations or they think you have a magic wand to, you know, to suddenly solve their problem. I, you know, I always say to people, if they have that problem, I say the best thing you can do is reach out to past clients, reach out to people you've worked with in the past and see if you can re engage with them because that's probably your best bet to get some business quickly.

Yeah, yeah, and that's a great point. And you know, I, I think what, what we are oftentimes doing now with some clients is we're, it's still a very much an outbound, proactive way to nurture your own network. And what we see a lot of clients are they've done a great job building their network, say on LinkedIn. They are connected with a lot of great decision makers and what, what happens with those contacts? Right. So you know, you might have people that worked at your agency that went client side. You might have junior people that were your day to day that have now been promoted into, you know, more senior decision making roles. You have other clients that have moved on to other agencies. So I think, you know, with referrals and word of mouth, you're kind of hoping that they come back to you, but you can still go and mine that network of your own and proactively reach out and try to start convers with that. And you would really be surprised on, you know, the movement that has happened probably in your network. And you know, most executives are not very good. They're so busy doing client work that they're not nurturing their, their network. So I think if you want to do something quick, I think that's probably the best way. You know, it's still not going to probably be tomorrow. But because they have some level of trust and they like you and they know you already, the sales cycles are, you know, truncated compared to, you know, a really, a true cold outreach.

Yeah, I mean it's interesting that sometimes people are looking for the juicy fruit in the top of the tree for their new clients, but meanwhile there's some ripe fruit that's fallen on the ground that actually is at their feet that they could be nurturing and that using, you know, using things like LinkedIn is a really great example of that. I think so many of us don't do that very well and don't do it consistently. So let me ask another question because you might Have a differing view to me on this one. So sometimes a client says to me, rob, we're thinking about hiring a business development person in house. What do you think and how would you respond to that question? If there's like an SME agency size. Sorry to interrupt.

I'm sorry.

If they're like an SME sized. A small to mid sized agency.

Yeah, you know, I think if they're a small agency, you know, I think it's, it could be a dangerous proposition if I really think that at a small agency size the, the principal or principals really need to be, you know, in charge of new business, they're going to sell the agency the best. You know, I think we've run into a lot of situations where they kind of go out and they expect, you know, this biz dev director, I call it kind of the one with the magic Rolodex, you know, that supposedly has all these contacts and rarely do I see that work out very well. I can't tell you that there's a certain size that I would recommend. I mean, I would say, you know, if you're, you know, maybe 12 or more people, might be a good place where you might want to start thinking about a new business director. Below that. I think it really needs to be spearheaded by, you know, the agency senior leadership, you know, probably the principal, you know, not to say that, you know, you know, they're not. There aren't other resources, other outsourced, you know, type of companies, you know, that you might want to think about engaging to help at least generate those leads. Because we understand the principal is wearing a lot of different hats. Prospecting may not be, you know, their skill set may not even be something they have the time to do, but they, but at the end of the day, you know, they're going to need to be the ones to kind of reel in, you know, and nurture that business and close that business. And once you get a little bit bigger, I think you can start, you know, thinking about, you know, bringing else someone from the outside in to help, you know, on a full time basis.

Yeah. What is your perspective on that? To be honest and for the listeners. I didn't prompt Christian to say that by the way. Exactly the same. To be quite honest, and this is always interested to hear your perspective. To be quite honest, I've heard more horror stories of people hiring business development people who by their own nature are probably good salesmen when it comes to the recruitment process. So they promise the earth but then they become a very expensive resource and they don't deliver the results. And I often see there becomes a conflict between the marketing person that they might have and the biz dev person, because the biz def blames marketing for not having given them all the tools or the decks that they need. And I say exactly the same thing. Look, business owner, you are the best person to sell your agency. You can sell it with passion, you can sell it with belief. And it's not one of those challenges that you should be outsourcing. And my advice to people is hire marketing people before you hire business development people, because you need to have all of the marketing tactics and assets in place to support that. So I completely agree with what you've said and unfortunately I've seen more examples of where it hasn't worked and where it's cost the agency, you know, six figures to hire and get rid of them than. And they brought very little in. So. Yeah, I agree. Let me just ask you a question, changing tact a bit. How have you seen the business development landscape change over the last couple of years with coronavirus and remote working and all that? Have things changed of the way we do things changed?

Yeah, I have seen some differences. You know, I think one of the things that is interesting and we'll see how this plays out over time, but there was, you know, there was a belief by a lot of companies and agencies that, you know, you had to work with someone that's in your, you know, driving distance basically from from where you work. And now with everybody working, you know, remotely and proving that that model could work in most situations, there just is a general sense that, you know, that is not as important anymore that if you're really great at something, it doesn't matter if you're, you know, one down the block or you're, you know, you know, a thousand miles away. So I think it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I think that also lends itself to that specialization even more because they're, they're willing to seek you out no matter where you're at, versus maybe they were working with general estate agencies just because they were close to them before. So that's one, one thing that we're, we're certainly seeing now and, and again, we'll see how it plays out over time. I think another thing that's, you know, been interesting as well is just with. Because at least for what we do a lot of, is working with agencies to kind of start that, you know, that top of the funnel, build the relationships and, you know, there was Just so much travel going on before with executives traveling from meeting to meeting and speaking at conferences that we've actually found it to be easier, you know, to get on their calendars now because they're at home more, you know, it's easier for them to jump on a 30 minute Zoom call because they're not on a plane somewhere or they're not meeting with other clients. So again, we'll see as travel starts to pick up more, you know, how that plays out over time as well. But, but those are a couple different things that we're seeing.

Yeah, I agree. And I, I kind of personally, my, my work has changed so much. It must be the case for you as well. Whereas before I would, you know, spend two hours driving into London and spending a couple of hours with a client and maybe seeing two clients that day and then head now, you know, I can have a day where I can see six or seven clients if I need to. Not that I want to do that in one day. It just reminds me of how much more efficient we can be. But as you say, we're just, when we're recording this episode, we're just at the point of the world sort of opening up again. So it will be interesting to see where it lands when the sort of pendulum swings back to wherever it's going to swim. But, but I don't know how it is in the US at the moment, Christian, but over here there's a massive skill shortage. One of the most frequent conversations I'm having with my clients, if it's not around sales, it's around people and recruitment and it's just tough to recruit people at the moment. So hiring remote workers just opens up a whole new opportunity.

Yeah, yeah, we're seeing, that's, that's the number one challenge that we're actually seeing right now is this huge talent shortage, you know, here in the US and you know, quite frankly, then it's, it's putting pause on some new business efforts because they can't service the current clients that they have, you know, right now because they're running out of, you know, team members to work on the work. So it's kind of put this. But they also see the future. This is not, you know, we need new business to keep growing. So it's, you know, kind of darned if you do, darned if you don't type of situation here. But yeah, hopefully that changes, I think, you know, with remote work as well. You know, that's, that's a whole nother can of worms there. About, you know, agencies. I speak with some that are very traditional and want to go back to the office and once everybody working in the office, others that have decided we want to go fully remote. But I think there's a general sense from a lot of agency staffers that, you know, would they want to work remote and, and, and those companies and those agencies that don't do that, I, I think might be at a disadvantage. And those that do embrace it could get access to talent that, you know, they never could have gotten previously because they just, you know, they weren't in that, that regionality of theirs. So. Yeah, interesting to see how that plays out.

Yeah. And I think people just need to open their eyes to solving the challenge in different ways. I was talking to one of my clients who's an SEO agency this morning and they're hiring a lot of people from Eastern Europe now. And you know, and because they can paying the same salary they'd pay in the uk, they can hire the absolute best people in Eastern Europe. And whereas in the UK they'd be hiring kind of starter to mid level people. And so that's the strategy that's working well for them. And obviously they can be based wherever and you know, we have technology like this to communicate more effectively. Let's just wrap this up. I just want to put you on the spot for a moment and ask you if you've got, if you were talking to an agency and they're trying to do business development themselves, have you got any other tips for them besides the things that you've already shared with us today? Any advice to them about their business development?

You know, I think there's really three things that are critical. You know, one is, like I mentioned earlier, is getting really clear on the problems that you solve for clients. That's number one. Number two then is, you know, really getting clearer then on the type of clients that what we call, you know, the right to win, you know, not necessarily you want to win, you know, that, that client, but you have a right to win them. So really again, getting clear on the types of companies, the sizes, the locations, you know, whatever it is that means for you categories. So that's the second thing and then the third, which is often kind of overlooked that, you know, if you're really again trying to do a more proactive approach approach like we've been talking about, these executives are very busy. So think about how you can leverage your thought leadership, your subject matter experts, if you have proprietary research or tools, how do you use that, you know, in order to open up a door. You know, we talk about leaving a deposit before you make a withdrawal. You know, so how do you reach out and, and offer your prospects something that will help them, give them value and, and use that really to start a relationship? And, you know, I don't want to think about, I, I don't like the term lead generation for what we do. I really think about it more of relationship generation. And, and I think if you think of it in that regard, think more long term. You'll see a lot better, you know, success than trying to be really transactional.

Yeah, that's. There's a couple of really good quotes I need to steal from you there because I really like that idea of making a deposit before you make a withdrawal. It's so true. It's like value first, right? Lead with value. Get, deliver something that demonstrates you know what you're talking about, that actually can help your prospects. Then they're much more likely to engage with you rather than just thinking of, oh my God, selling is selling, and I've got to sell to them because you're never going to get anywhere with that. So let me, let me just ask you the last question I ask all my guests. If you could go back in time and give that younger Christian who's just starting out in business a piece of advice, what would it be?

Yeah, that's a great question. Funny. Interesting enough, actually. My, my parents, who are getting older now were in last week and I asked them that same question, what advice they would give themselves. And they turned around and then they asked me after they answered and like, I, I didn't have an answer, you know, ready at the time, so I had to do some thinking about it. And funny you asked me this question because I literally just went through this. But what I had shared with them and I'll share with here today is, you know, I think for me it's really keeping more of an open mind. I think when I was younger, I felt maybe I knew everything, you know, that I, that I didn't maybe need to have, you know, as wide of experiences that, that I see today. And, and I, and I think that's what I would, I would teach my. Want to tell myself. I think there were some opportunities that I just completely overlooked or dismissed because I thought I had it all figured out back then, and I really, obviously I didn't. So that, that's the advice that I would, that I would get. I don't know if I would have listened to myself.

See, that was going to be My next question, this is a question I've started asking everybody. Do you think your younger self would have actually listened to that? But that is a really good bit of advice. And I was just saying to Christian before we went on the show that I'm collating all this feedback into ready for our hundredth episode to include all the feedback from all the guests and almost, I don't think anybody has ever said the same thing. And I, I would convince, gladly confirm that no one has said that before, Christian. So that's really interesting, but a really good bit of advice because, you know, when we're younger we can be quite cocky and quite cocksure and sometimes that kind of youthful, ignorant arrogance serves as well because we just blindly go on and do things. And I sometimes think now being old and gray, that I wouldn't have the courage to do some of the things I did when I was younger. But also, you know, being a bit more open minded and listening to those who have got a bit of gray hair is probably not a bad idea at all. So listen, Christian, we need to wrap things up now. Really appreciate your time today. If the listeners wanted to find out more about your get in touch. Where would they go?

Yeah, I think the best place to go would be my website, Christianbinoc.com from there we have a free agency growth master class. We could subscribe and get, you know, weekly updates on different CMOs that have been recently appointed. So that's a great resource. Obviously there's links to all the different social channels that I'm on there. But I think that my website is really the hub where I think would be the best place to start.

Good. And that's why I tell all my clients your website should be the central hub of everything. So we'll include that link into the show notes so people can find it. But I just want to say a big thank you for giving up your time today to join us on the Agency Accelerator podcast. I know our listeners will have found that really useful because I got a few really great nuggets from it as well. So thanks for joining us today.

Yeah, thanks for having me. This was a lot of fun.

So there you have it, an interesting take on lead generation and I really hope you got some practical ideas that you can start implementing. As ever, if you enjoyed the show, please please please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and also share this with your colleagues. Other than that, I will see you next Thursday for the next episode of the Agency Experience Accelerator Podcast.