Recruitment: The 7 Needs Of An Employee With Rory Spence

In this week's episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast, we are talking about what is probably the hottest topic right now and that is recruitment and retention. If you're anything like my clients, then you are finding it particularly difficult to attract and retain great talent. So we're going to unpack that and we're going to talk about the seven needs of an employee and the seven needs therefore of a candidate you might be recruiting. Really fascinating stuff, gives you a great framework for your recruitment. So let's dig in and get on with today's show. I'm Rob Da Costa and this is the Agency Accelerator Podcast. As someone who has stood in your shoes, having started, grown and sold my own agency, I know just how it feels in the ups and downs of agency life. So this podcast aims to ease your journey just a little by sharing mine and my guests experiences and advice as you navigate your way to growing a profitable, sustainable and enjoyable business. Hey everybody and welcome to this week's episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast. I am delighted to be joined yet again by Rory Spence from the wow. Company. In fact, Rory is my first three Pete client interviewee on the podcast. So I'm really excited about that and I know I had lots of great feedback from the previous episode. So thanks for joining us again. Now, in case you haven't listened to those episodes, I will put a link in the show notes. But Rory works for the wow. Company and he helps agencies across the UK by advising them on their pricing strategy, project management and financial processes. So the wow. Company recently launched two new market research bench press reports. One for agencies under a million and one for agencies over a million that are focused on the very hot topic of recruitment and retention. Now I don't know about you Rory, but this is a topic of conversation that I'm having time and time and time again with my clients. It's definitely an employee's marketplace right now and it and it's tough to find and retain good talent. So your reports are really well timed. So thanks for joining me again Rory. And let's just start by discussing broadly some of the key findings that you think our listeners will be interested in from from the reports.

Great. Thanks Rob. Yeah, thanks for the intro. I didn't realize this was the hat trick of podcasts. Exciting times. But you're absolutely right, this is a really hot topic for agency owners right now. For the last six months and probably more, every conversation I seem to have with agency owners involves recruitment and challenge of that and how competitive the market is and also inflated salaries and so I'm hoping today we can share a few tips around all of that as well as some, some ideas around retaining staff and what the top agencies are doing that we can see through our bench press report. So you mentioned, what are some of the key findings from the, the latest bench press report? Well, what I'd add, of course, is I can, I can share the link with you, Rob, to share with the audience and I guess that can go in the, in the podcast notes.

Yeah, we'll put that in. We'll put all the links in the notes.

Perfect. Per. But yeah, I think some of the key headlines have been around what employees are looking for from top agencies. So I think this is really important for retention. Of course, you know that it's employees that are looking for these things, but also how important that is as part of your recruitment as well. Because the times have changed, as you said, this is kind of an employee's market right now, or a candidate's market. And it's just as important that you as the agency owner and the recruiter are selling your yourself and showing the value of your agency as a place to work. It's just as important you're doing that as candidates are selling themselves and the value that they're going to bring because ultimately you want them to choose to come to work at your agency. And so for me, the number one stat that stood out from bench press this year was that only 33% of agencies have a conscious strategy to deliver a great candidate experience throughout that recruitment process. And that I found, I found really surprising. And that's a number that I think should be considerably higher. Absolutely. If, if you're not in that 33% and you're competing for talent against someone in that 33%, you probably wouldn't fancy your chances too well. And so I think that that's a really important stat.

Yeah. Can you just explain what that means? What does a great candidate experience mean?

Yeah, absolutely. So a great candidate experience, I guess I liken this to almost your new business process in a way. So when you are doing your new business and you have got a potential client, you've got a prospect there, you will think and you will map out the exact touch points you're going to have with that prospect and you're going to think of all the ways that you can showcase the value that you can bring to, to that potential client. And, and you will have a clear strategy on the new business side of things, of pieces of content you direct them to. When you're going to Meet them for a coffee or a bit of lunch or when you're going to present to various people within the team and when you're then going to follow up to that and you map that out meticulously and you think about that. Absolutely. We should take the same approach to recruitment. We should be thinking about how we showcase our value. When do we share certain, you know, questionnaires or videos that we've done internally or little things that just show case what it's like to work at the team? When do we introduce them to other people of the team or their direct line manager, for example, so that they can meet them as, as well as you potentially? Absolutely. You need to think about having a really clear strategy for when you're going to do this. And what I'd just add to this as well. When we, when we're making these comparisons to new business, you know, from a new business perspective, you will all, everyone listening will have one a client where you weren't the cheapest. You know, you'd have been pitching against other agencies and you will have not been the cheapest, but you'll have still have won the work. And why has that happened? Well, it's because you've been able to showcase the value that you can provide to that client and they've chosen to work with you because of that feeling that you've given them and because you've done a great job of sharing that value. Well, exactly the same can apply for recruitment. Candidates will come to work for you even if you're not paying the highest salary. Because if you're able to showcase these sort of other, other things that you can do and that these candidates are looking for, and I'm sure we might touch on those seven things candidates are looking for on the podcast today. But if you can really showcase that and you can show the value that you can bring as an agency and as an employer, then candidates, great talent, great talent, great candidates will come and work for you even if you're not paying the highest salary necessarily.

Yeah. It's an interesting point really, that we are in a different era to a point where it was all about the candidate selling themselves to you to get the job. Now you've also got to sell yourself to the candidate. And thinking about this and how you're going to do it should be a conscious decision, not just doing it on the wing. And I think, you know, I always say to people like when you're recruiting and you found the person, that's the start of the solution. It's not the end of the problem. And therefore having like that first hundred days mapped out is super important so that you can, you know, give yourself and them the best chance of being successful. And you know, if we play that back, then what you're saying really Rory, is that we should think about that in the recruitment process as well. Just, let's just talk about recruitment, the actual process of recruitment before we jump into those seven things that candidates are looking for. I found it interesting that in the two reports the sub million agencies I think had using recruitment agencies third on their list. And I think LinkedIn was the number one place that they were going, whereas the plus 1 million agencies had recruitment agencies the top of the list. Have you got any thoughts on that and what, what are your thoughts about using recruitment agencies in general?

Yeah, it's really interesting. I think if you can find a great recruitment agent then, then, then you're absolutely winning. But of course that there is a fairly hefty cost a lot of the time with using recruitment agents. So it didn't overly surprise me I guess that recruitment agents were a little bit lower on the under 1 million pound agencies, on the over 1 billion pound agencies. I think also probably not too surprising to see LinkedIn as kind of number one and number two on both reports and job boards being the same basically. But I guess one of the key things that I was really interested to see was that on both reports, interestingly it was the same percentage, only 5% said that employee referrals was the best way of finding talent. And I think that is a huge opportunity for agencies to tap into more. So when it comes to employee referrals, there's a number of wins here that you can find. Well one, of course they're going to be cheaper than recruitment agents. Even if you are offering a, a kind of referral incentive which I think you, you should, you know, absolutely, you should incentivize your team to, to go and find great talent and to help you out. You know, it will be a win, win all round. To give you an example, I know a number of our clients will offer £1,000. Some of those will be 500 pound when they get the job and 500 pound after a year. Some might be you don't get anything until they pass their probation and some might be you get the back after they've signed their probation or finished their probation. But that just, just gives you an example. But that thousand pound is still going to be cheaper than recruitment agents. But not just is it cheaper. Also, we talked a second ago, Rob, about how important is your showcasing the value you can offer as an employer as well? Well, if your team are going and speaking to their family, to their friends, to ex colleagues, to mates from university or training courses, then. Well, actually they're only going to do that if they believe that it's a great agency to work at anyway, and therefore they're going to do that selling for you. You know, they're going to say, hey, you need to come and have a chat with us. You would love to work at this agency. You know, this is what we do and this is how we do the work. And, oh, by the sounds of it, you do things really differently. Well, I think you'd really love working here. So they're almost doing the selling for you, which I think is a huge win.

Yeah, really good. Really good shout.

And I think that the final thing I'd add there as well is, is, of course, if you've got, you believe is highly talented within your team and, hey, they know a couple of people from a previous agency they used to work at. Well, you know, the chances are they're going to be pretty talented as well. You know, the training that's gone on at that previous agency or that training program or uni or whatever it is, you know, it's a safer bet than taking someone on who nobody knows and you don't.

You don't know.

Apart from an interview process.

Yeah, I think, I think that's a really good shout. I think people really overlook that and they really forget that actually happy employees are really good salespeople, both for finding new employees and, of course, for winning new business as well. What I think about recruitment companies, you said at the beginning, is that if you can find a good recruitment company, they're worth their weight in gold. And the cost might seem a lot, but you have to factor in what is the cost of me hiring the wrong person and the disruption to my agency and to my clients when I have to let them go after three months. I've invested all this time, so I think there are no shortcuts. And when we try to take shortcuts, it usually ends up costing us more in the end. So that's my experience and I've had a few clients who've been very resistant about using recruitment companies, but I've got sort of desperate. So they have, they found good staff and then they realize a year down the line that that was actually worth paying whatever the fee was because I've got this great member of staff, they fitted in really well. The clients are happy with them. And, you know, I'm not having to go back to the drawing board, which I might do if I try and cut corners. So, you know, remember, like anything really, when it comes to recruitment, I've got time or I've got money and if I've got time, I can go trolling through LinkedIn and try and do it myself. But is that the best use of your time and should you be investing the money? So not saying we should all be using recruitment agencies and like you say, it's probably not surprising that the sub million aren't, but I would factor that into your decision making when you're looking at. Don't just discount it out and absolutely, as Rory said, go talk to your staff because they're perhaps your best recruiters. Now, I don't know whether you've got any view on this, but because it's a candidates market at the moment, some agencies used to have very protracted interview processes where they'd have two, maybe even three interviews. I was talking to a client yesterday who's recruiting a digital marketing execration and we were talking about the kind of exercises they might get them to do. But I was actually saying you might be better off just having one interview and making your decision based on that one interview and get them to do that exercise. Do you have a view on that or did the report tell us anything about that?

Yeah, the review didn't. Sorry, the report didn't touch on that specifically, but I do have an opinion on it and I think it does go back to just ensuring you have that great candidate experience. So in my opinion, you could do one interview or you could do three interviews. And that alone isn't going to dictate whether it was a great candidate experience or not. It's actually how thought out that is. Who am I meeting as part of that process? How is that structured? Where does it happen? When does it happen? I think that is probably in my opinion, more important than like simply the number. You know, if you can have, you know, one interview, but it maybe involves two other members of the team as well as you, as, let's say, you know, the owner, founder, director, like that, that could be really good because then you're getting different opinions and you're still giving that person, rather than grilling them for two hours, you know, you're giving them the opportunity to chat to other members of the team and get different perspectives as well. Can you maybe get them to do a test but in their own time rather than as part of that interview. But how can you make that fun as well? Like, let's be honest, you know, some of these like interview tests are pretty like laborious. How can we make that fun and an enjoyable process? But like I said, I think equally you could have a three interview process. But as long as you're thinking out and mapping who's that going to be with, how is that going to happen? Are you doing it kind of on their terms in terms of timings to an extent as well. So it's not a huge task for them and a drain then? I think as long as, like I said, that key thing is having that great candidate experience in mind. I think that's the key thing.

Yeah, yeah, good for calling me out on that. That's very true. I suppose I was saying it in terms of speed because what's happening is some people have these protracted recruitment processes and by the time they get to the second or third interview, that candidate's got a job somewhere else. So we need to react a bit quicker. It's a bit like seeing a house at the moment because the housing market's going through the same thing. One quick question before we talk about those seven things that the candidates are looking for. What do the reports tell us about in house versus remote, working versus part time, freelance and all that kind of stuff?

Yeah, good question. So this, this I think was a big thing that people will be curious to see. And when they were answering the survey, I know a number of people kind of were getting in touch saying, oh, you know, can you give me any early insights into this? We're making our decisions now as to office decisions and the like. So, so ultimately I've, I've got the kind of, I've got the full stats here. And so in terms of days of the week that need to be worked in the office, still the highest percentage is, is one to two days, you know, so one in the office and therefore three to four days at home. And that's 39% of agencies that have that. Then 28% of agencies will need them in the office three to four days a week and therefore at home one to two days a week. So kind of reverses and interestingly, 27%, so very close, 27% that they can choose, they can completely choose how often they're in the office, whether they're in the office at all, basically. Now you mentioned before, well, we've both mentioned and we're keeping people, you know, in suspense about these seven things, but one of those is flexible working and so we will come back to that. But I think that this is a key thing people are looking for, put it that way. Only 1% of agencies that answered our bench press report had people in five days a week. That's 1% because it was probably one agency. You know, in all honesty I think that you're going to really struggle, I think long term to, to retain staff if, if that's the approach you take. And I know that that person would probably justify it by saying, hey, everyone wants to be in the office. You know, they love hanging out with each other. But I think really the chances of everyone in your team wanting that every single day for the next, you know, year or so, they might right now or they might, when Covid sort of ended in the lockdown sort of ended, they might have really enjoyed that. But think in the long term you need to review that.

And I think that's a, that's an interesting point. I have an HR expert joining my membership group self running agency later this month and we were doing a prep call for. We put like an expert in the hot seat and the group gets to quiz them and it's HR this time and she has a, she feels that the pendulum hasn't stopped swinging yet. And so it'd be interesting. I don't know whether you're planning to do this report every year but it'd be really interesting to see what those numbers are in say a year's time when we've got enough distance from the pand and the pendulum has stopped somewhere because obviously we were all forced to work from home during the pandemic. Where is it actually going to end? Maybe that your report's already saying that, but I'm not sure. I mean a couple of times, you know, I've been doing some one to one work with a sort of a mid level agency member and they've been sitting on their bed because it's the only place in their house and they live with their parents. So it's the only place in the house that they can get a piece of peace and quiet. So obviously people like that probably don't want to keep working at home. So I don't know whether you've got a view on that but it will be interesting to see whether pendulum stops.

Yeah, I think it's interesting because two stats that stuck out from, from bench press around kind of this topic. One was that 82% of agencies are going to keep an office basically. And so I think it is clear that very few agencies are going to Be going, like completely remote, where those people that you mentioned. Because you're absolutely right, Rob, you know, there are people we need to think about. Those people that, you know, do live at home with their parents or in shared spaces, for example, with friends, where is maybe not the best working environment, actually. Those people are still going to have somewhere that they can go, which I think is so key. But what was also really interesting is that 71% of agencies will be recruiting remotely. And how we defined remotely is outside of a commutable distance to that office, basically, which I think is great, by the way, 100%. I think this is a great idea. It opens up a massive talent pool for you as well. We've seen at wow. The benefit of doing that. We've hired some really brilliant people that we wouldn't have considered previously. And so. So I can say firsthand, like, what. What a great decision that has been. But like, I guess, interestingly just on this, while we're talking about wow as well, to give you an example, we've moved to a remote first kind of process, basically internally and with clients, really. So what that means is we still have the office, the same offices we had before. It's open Monday, Wednesday, Thursday. People can choose to go in if they want to. However, there's absolutely no obligation to. And clearly those people that we've recruited in Scotland, for example, you know, are not going to be coming down and I'm working from the office. But what it also means is that remote first sort of idea means if there were four of us in a meeting, an internal meeting, and three of them were in the office and one was remote, we do that call on zoom and everyone dials in individually. Because I don't know if you've ever been in this situation, Rob, but when you kind of dial into a meeting that's happening face to face and you're just the face on a computer that's kind of propped up in the corner of the room, you can't quite hear what's going on. It's a lot harder to contribute to that conversation as well. And so that's why we've made this decision to say, right, well, we will be remote first. So the only time we'll do a face to face meeting is if everyone in that meeting is all there, like face to face, which the chances of that happening these days is pretty minimal. And that, I think, has worked really well and has really helped people to kind of feel really part of the team as well. You know, rather than that just that Face on a computer that's been propped up in the corner, basically. I think that's important to avoid.

Yeah. It's interesting in this week's. My group call this week, someone was asking, how do you make a remote worker who's completely remote because they're based in Scotland, for example, and they're based down on the south coast. How do you make them feel part of the team? What tools are there? And we came up. I will list one of the tools. I can't remember the name of it, but I'll list it in the show notes. Someone shared this really clever tool where you almost recreate the office layout and then you can move into the meeting room and you can get on a zoom call with them or you can hang out in the kitchen with people and they, you can have like chat. And it was a really interesting. I guess there's more and more software tools like that emerging where we're trying to create this sense of community for a very disparate group of people. I also think that, you know, all of this works provided you have the right culture in your business. Right. If you have, you know, take the Boris Johnson approach that, you know, you'll be eating cheese and drinking coffee all day and not working. If you work at home, if that's your culture, then obviously it's going to be really problematic. But I would hope that most of our listeners and the agencies in this world don't have that kind of culture. They have a trusting culture where it's all about getting the work done, not necessarily the hours you work. Okay, we've kept everyone in suspense long enough. Let's talk about the seven things that candidates are looking for in an agency when they're looking for a new job.

Yeah, well, awesome, awesome. So those, those seven things, and I'll summarize it at the end as well so that we've got a clear list. But, but the first, and these are in no particular order, the first of those seven is, is purpose. You know, more and more now this is important, I think younger generations, this has kind of always been important for them. When you look at their kind of buying ideolog and who they're loyal to in terms of brands in day to day life, like actually a really clear purpose is really important. Do they really feel that they are making a difference personally? And do they feel that, hey, the company I'm working for is making a difference? You know, am I really, do I have a clear purpose here within the business? And does this business have a purpose? What are we actually doing here or are we just churning out websites for money? Basically. So I think having that clear purpose is absolutely key. I'm a huge Simon Sinek fan. People that have attended events with me before know pretty much every time I seem to give this guy a shout out. I'm not on a commission, I promise, but he has, has written a brilliant book. Start with why all around how important having a purpose and a clear why is. He's done great podcasts, great TED talks, he's everywhere, you know, you won't struggle to find it, whatever medium you like to listen to or read.

Yeah, I'll put a link in the notes to that if anyone who wants to find out more about the book.

So, so purpose is, is that that first thing. The second thing is candidates and employees are looking for from top agencies is a vision as well. So actually are they excited about what the future holds for the business? And I think what's an even more important question to ask, and probably the question to start with is do they even know what that looks like? So there's one thing than being excited about it, but actually do they know what the future holds for the agency? And that's absolutely got to start with, with, with you, I assume. I think a lot of your listeners, Robert, are kind of founders, owners, aren't they? And so that, that has to start with you as the, as the owner, the founder.

And you'd be amazed, I mean, this is what keeps me employed. But you'd be amazed at how few people do that because they're just, you know, stuck on the treadmill doing the day to day without a sense of where they're headed. So. Yeah, and I bet you. I'm just listening to you. Rory, sorry to interrupt you, but I'm just thinking how many people in the recruitment process actually present any of this? I bet they, I bet so few do actually do. But it's of. You don't just want to hire someone for today, but you want to hire someone who buys into that vision and buys into that journey with you.

100%, right, 100%. And that's where we went back earlier and we likened new business and recruitment and said, you know, you can hire the top candidates without paying over the odds and offering the highest salary. Well, it's these seven things that we're talking about now that if you can demonstrate this in that recruitment process, then these are the reasons why someone will come to work for you rather than that huge agency where they are just going to be, you know, kind of a cog in the wheel, basically, and they don't have a clear purpose and they, they're not really on board with the vision of the business, but they're getting paid an extra five, ten grand. You know, actually these are the things you need to be thinking about and how can you showcase these things in that recruitment process and that candidate experience? So, so, yeah, absolutely. Vision that's got to come from you as, as the, as the owner of the business. How can you first of all map that out and articulate it it. But then how can you crucially get people really excited about it as well, you know, so that they're really excited for where the business is going to be in two years time, five years time. Now, the third point here of the seven is around leadership. This is so important. There was a mental health survey that went out last year that asked employees, you know, what is the most important thing to protect your mental health at work, basically? And the number one answer by far was empathetic, educated leaders. That was the key thing. So appreciate we've gone off on a slight tangent, but I just want to share as well, beyond simply recruitment, leadership is absolutely crucial for so many reasons anyway. Like, probably not too surprised to hear that anyway. But yeah, particularly in that recruitment process and for employees, your current employees, from a retention perspective, they want to be working with inspiring leaders. They want to be working with people that really understand them and give them opportunities. And so leadership is so, so important. I'm a huge fan of Ben Francis, founder of gymshark, and he did a fantastic podcast with Stephen Bartlett, the diary of a CEO podcast, where he talks about when he got 360 feedback from his team. I think he was quite upset when he first kind of read it and thought, no, that's not me, that's not me. But actually I think it was his partner that ended up reading it and saying, hey, this is actually a really accurate representation of you. And therefore he made some really big changes. And I think in the end he actually ended up sort of kind of stepping down as CEO and focusing on a different role that was better suited for him, basically. And I think it's a really inspiring story and shows the importance of this.

And so yeah, that's the power of 360 feedback. So important.

Yeah, without doubt. So, so like I said, like leadership and great leaders is, is the third thing on that list. The fourth thing is, is a great team as well. People want to be working around really talented staff. They say, you know, iron sharpens iron and so people want to be surrounding themselves with, with other people who are going to improve them and they're going to build and all learn and progress together. And so this may feel like a slight chicken and egg situation because you need a great team to recruit great staff. But then if you don't have a great team, how can you recruit great staff? And I appreciate it sounds a bit chicken and egg, but I think the reality is you all have a great team already. How do you showcase this in your recruitment process? You know, are your candidates literally just meeting you and don't get to meet the people that they'd be working alongside day to day? They're going to spend more time with these employees than they are the their wives and husbands potentially. And therefore, like, why not give them the opportunity to meet some of them and actually see, hey, look, this is who you're going to be working alongside and to see firsthand what a great person that that employee is, but also hear from them their experience of working at the agency. So I think showcasing your team is really key. The fifth thing of these seven points is progression, which no one will be surprised to hear. This is in that. That seven, that list of seven things candidates are looking for, but progression, opportunities. And I think, again, how can you showcase this? Have you got examples or case studies of people within the team that have been promoted internally after, you know, however many years of working in the business or where they've almost sculpted a job role for themselves because they've identified, hey, there's this opportunity and we're not doing this, and I'm going to take that on. And therefore, that gets people excited and gets candidates wanting to work for you because they see that there's those progression, opportunities, opportunities. So again, I think this is a key one. You can't simply make progression happen. Of course you need a great team. But again, I think the point here is if, if there's examples of this, of where this has happened previously, like, how do you showcase that in your, in your recruitment process? So anything you'd add to this, by the way, Rob, I just want to check in from you.

No, it's what. I'm listening to you. I'm just nodding my head. And, you know, I think sort of summarizing this whole, whole podcast is that people typically need to be a lot more considered when they're doing recruitment. They, they can't just think, okay, I need to fill this role. Let's put a job ad together, let's put it out there. Let's recruit a Few people asking the obvious questions and then hopefully we'll find an amazing candidate. It's so much more than that. And I think this, I'm looking forward to hearing six and seven, but these seven points should really give people a bit of a framework for putting the whole recruitment process together and thinking about how do I weave all of these needs into the conversations I'm having with candidates, even from that job ad, and into the first conversation. So, yeah, I think it's fantastic.

Yeah, yeah, great. So, yeah, to kind of wrap it up then and finish the sixth and the seventh point. So the sixth point is flexible working. And we touched on this a little bit earlier in terms of the days of the week, people need to work in the office. What I would say and laugh about is, you know, two or three years ago, flexible working meant something very different to what it does now. You know, I think two or three years ago you could say you offered flexible working and it would be, you can start anytime between 8 and 9 and finish anytime between 4 and 5. That is, is kind of not going to cut it anymore, unfortunately. Actually, like, flexible working now really means give it. Giving people, where possible, like, the autonomy to really decide what, like, when works best for them. Of course there's going to be some things that you need to almost put in place. You know, we need you working between these hours. But, but with childcare, with school runs, for example, do people want to get up at six in the morning before, like, you know, before their kids are even awake, and do a couple of hours, then, for example, but then log off because they're going to do the school run but be back on a bit later when they come back on, do they have the flexibility to do that? You might be listening to this going, oh, no, that would never work for us. Well, okay, that's fair enough. However, other agencies are making that work, and therefore, if that's important for, for one of your employees and you're not offering it because you think it won't work, what's to stop them from going to another agency where they're going, yeah, okay. Yeah, we'll be flexible around you. If that's what works for you, you know what? We'll make that work.

Yeah. And I mean, I just wanted to say if anybody is sitting here thinking this is all fine, but it won't work for me, then I would really challenge your mindset around that because no agency is unique, really, and it is absolutely possible. I think one of the most positive things of the pandemic is it taught us that we can do this and it can, and we can still be efficient and we can make our working environment more attractive to people because we can flex around their life. And yeah. So I would challenge anyone who's thinking, this won't work for me, because you can make it work for you if you choose to. And like you, like you say, Rory, otherwise you're going to lose great candidates to someone who will implement flexible working.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, yeah. And I think what's interesting as well is at the time of us recording this, I don't know when this is going to go live, but at the time of us recording this, they're currently trialing the four day week across the uk, like the biggest trial ever. And there'll be some of you thinking, oh, yeah, no, I'm not interested in this four day week. Like, I don't think it would work for us for this reason or that reason. But the reality is, regardless of how this trial goes, there are already a load of agencies that are doing this. You know, we've got a dozen clients of our own who are doing this. You know, you work on a Monday or a Friday, for example, and over years, in two years time, honestly, I think a load of businesses will be doing this, like I said, regardless, as the outcome of this trial. And so do you want to be the agency that does that because you're almost forced to do it, or do you want to be the agency that dictates this in your terms and says, right, we're going to introduce this and this is how we're going to do it. And also know that, hey, look, there's going to be benefits from a recruitment process. What I would also add is like, people talk about this four day week, it's not for everyone. And so, and I don't just mean that from an employer's perspective, I mean that from an employee's perspective as well. That is not for us, everyone. You know, actually some people are more than happy doing a five day week. So I guess what, I don't want it to sound like I'm trying to pressure people into doing it, but what I am saying is like, I think without any doubt, in two years time we're going to see like a load of businesses that are doing this.

Yeah.

So it's just worth making that decision now of do we want to do it when we kind of have to or do we want to do it? You know, because, because we want to do it and we're going to, we're going to Create something that works for us.

Yeah, so I work a four day week and I recorded a podcast episode which I will put in the show notes all about how I make a four day week work. In fact, I'm, I do as much work as I used to do in a five day week and my revenue hasn't dipped in my four day working week. You just have to get super, super, super efficient. So it is possible. And of course, if as an employer that's what you're offering, then that suddenly becomes a huge incentive. But as you say, Rory, it isn't going to be for everybody, both from an employee or an employer, but it is just another thing to throw into the mix. And like you say, more and more companies will probably be doing this over time.

Time. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Love that. Awesome. And then the seventh thing, so that the final thing candidates are looking for, like it is an empowered culture as well within the agency, like people. And I think again, and I don't really like to stereotype and use the sort of Millennials and Gen Z kind of phrases too much because I've never felt that I fit into my stereotype particularly well. And I know a load of people that don't fit into theirs either. But so, so I won't use those phrases. But, but certainly the younger generation, again, are looking for a bit more autonomy and that empowerment to be able to say, hey, I think there's a better way of doing something and knowing that their leaders, you know, these great leaders, to go back to point three, they're listening to them and they're saying, yeah, okay, we hear you and let's give this a go. Or someone saying, hey, at my previous agency, we use this particular software and wow, did it make our lives easier. Okay, that sounds interesting. Let's give that a try. People want to be heard. People want to be able to, to decide, hey, look, I think there's a better way of doing this. Oh look, actually I feel I'll work better in this particular environment or within these times. And it's not to say people are dictating anything. You know, of course you can say no, you don't have to just be a yes person. But just that these people are feeling heard and that they're affecting change, again is so important both for retention for your current employees, but also, again, really crucial thing here is of these seven things, how can you showcase all of these seven things within your recruitment process? How can you share with that can candidate this, really talented candidate that, hey, look, this is what you're going to get if you work for my agency and you might be offered an extra ten grand to work over here at this huge agency in London. But look, you won't get these things. I think that's, that's so important.

Yeah, that's so, so, so interesting. And like I said, if you take those seven needs, if you like, of a candidate and you use that as a bit of a framework to formulate your recruitment strategy, then you're going to be on a pretty really good footing to find candidates that you don't necessarily have to pay more than anybody else because they can see their opportunity and their needs being met. So I was really, I really appreciate you sharing that. I just want to wrap this up now because I appreciate your time and we could carry on talking as ever for a lot longer. But any final thoughts on this? I guess my final thought is, guys, recruitment is a strategy, is not a tactic. So really think about recruitment and think about the experience that, that you give the candidates during the recruitment process and also those sort of onboarding those first 100 days as a new member of your team, how you're going to get them to fit in as quickly as possible. That's my summation of this.

Have you got any very similar to yours, Rob, in that?

Yeah.

Please just make sure you're really thinking about how you recruit. Because we've got into a habit over years and years and years and years of doing the same thing. You know, you created a process 10 years ago for recruitment and how you do that and probably a step by step guide for, for the questions that you ask in an interview and you've never had to revisit it, right? Because it's worked for 10 years now. Times have changed. Screw that up, rip it up and start again. And really just take a day, just take a day at some point where you just think about how am I going to deliver a brilliant candidate experience? What exactly is that going to look like? Who am I going to get involved? Who are the people? And right now they might not be involved in recruitment at all within the team, but you might identify them as someone who you want to help showcase the value of your agency. And for them that might be a really exciting opportunity. They might say, no, I really have no interest in doing this. But they might say, oh, this is quite cool. Yeah, I'm getting involved in recruitment, that feels like progression. So yeah, I'm up for doing that. So just, yeah, my lasting thought is, please just put a focus on how are you delivering that great candidate experience.

Fantastic. We will put a link to both the reports into the show notes. I'll also put a link in to the books that Rory mentioned and, of course, Rory's contact details if you want to reach out to him. But that was another action packed episode. I know people are going to find this useful. This is an episode that I'm going to be pointing all of my agency clients to go and listen to because they will learn a lot from this. So I know the wider audience will. So, as ever, thank you so much for joining us today and thanks for sharing your insights with us.

Thanks very much, Rob. It's great to be on here. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Let's see if we can get you on for a fourth time later on this year.

It.