Your HR Questions Answered With Lynda Goncalves

Hey everybody and welcome to this week's episode of the Agency Accelerator Podcast. Today we are talking about your most valuable asset in your business, your people. Whether that be an in house team or a freelance team that you work with. We want to get recruitment and retention right. And to discuss this really important topic, I'm excited to be joined by Linda Gonzalez from Sussex hr. I'm Rob Da Costa and this is the Agency Accelerator Podcast. As someone who has stood in your shoes, having started, grown and sold my own agency, I'm an just how it feels in the ups and downs of agency life. So this podcast aims to ease your journey just a little by sharing mine and my guests experiences and advice as you navigate your way to growing a profitable, sustainable and enjoyable business. Sussex HR provides human resources consultancy for all types of different organisations. Now Linda and I have worked together on and off at least 10 years, I think so. And she provides really no nonsense advice, which is why I was really keen to get her on the podcast today. So first of all Linda, thank you so much for giving up your time and joining us today. And I thought it would be good just to start with a very broad general question and ask you what you see the biggest challenges organizations suffering with right now when it comes to their people.

I was going to say it's a funny old market out there at the moment. It's funny world. Nobody can quite predict, I guess what is ahead of us. And I think that's a combination of just living through a pandemic for two years. I saw a presentation from the CEO from Sweaty Betty who said as business owners we are actually living through history and we won't really appreciate that until we're sort of fully out of the other side and we're not there yet. So it feels a funny old market. And I think that even I was sort of saying to somebody last week that at the moment it probably feels very strange because in our own personal life we're able to do the things that we couldn't do. Go on holiday, go to concerts, go and see comedy shows, go to the theater, do all those things. There's not this kind of, you know, it's in my diary, but I'm not sure if it will happen. So it's a bit funny. Business wise though, I think the biggest challenge is the fact of what the pandemic bought and that was the fact that everybody was instructed to work from home, those that could. And we're having businesses that are really struggling getting people back in the office. There is hybrid working there is people that being paid a high salary due to locations I. E London but perhaps are now living in Cornwall and they haven't got that commute. So there's a lot of things that need to kind of even out. So as, as business owners I think that is a massive contributing factor to recruitment because of the fact that actually for new staff, in order for them to understand your business, understand your eth, to train them, to develop them, you cannot do that through a screen. Graduates coming out, you can't do it. And then for those employees that you already have, the biggest challenge is going to be retention because actually they haven't got a sense of belonging to your business when they're working in the PJs perhaps at home. So it is a massive challenge and I do think that unless businesses are forward thinking, it is worked through the pandemic because it's had to, but it's going to cause a real skills deficit and a very high level of, you know, retention issues going forward because there's no loyalty, there's no sense of belonging to a business which is really, really important.

So how do we replicate that? Obviously like you say, the pendulum hasn't fully stopped yet as a command pandemic. But I think a lot of people have got a flavor from working from home and all the benefits that brings in terms of not having to commute and pay all those additional costs and spend that time. And so probably a lot of employers are thinking, okay, I can't force everybody back into the office so we're going to have some kind of flexible working. But how do we replicate that sense of team and that culture when we've got people who are, you know, I mean I've got one client who's based down in the south of England and they recru an account manager who's based in Scotland and obviously during the pandemic he's never been to the office. Whether he has actually been there now I don't know but he certainly won't be coming very often. So how do we replicate that cultural kind of sense that we get when we're all in the office?

I think it's really important. I think communication is really key. So I was outside the O2 in London with, waiting for my daughter along with lots of other parents because they'd gone in to see Billie Eilish and I was talking to somebody there and she was saying she worked for the same company, had moved departments and actually she doesn't know anybody in her team. She doesn't, you know, how people communicate with each other is pretty terrible because the whole teams thing is then it's business WhatsApp. So actually the tone of how people communicate and how they communicate is much more relaxed. So all these fast, quick communication things are actually causing, causing a massive difficulty and it creates a much more informal environment. So we also are in the situation where through the pandemic, everyone was re evaluating their own lives and people perhaps got pet dogs and all sorts of things, paid a fortune for them because there was a shortage along with toilet roll and pasta at the time. So, you know, and that's one of the reasons that they're saying that they can't come back into the office because they've, you know, got said puppy and stuff. So it's really difficult. And obviously you've then got the employment law around that, around everybody's right to request flexible working. And one of the big things that businesses can claim is actually the impact on the business and that argument becomes weaker when they've been able to do it because we've had to do it for the last two years. So it's really, really tricky when you're talking about engagement and employees. It is all about them feeling that they belong to the organization and that's all about them doing team building stuff and doing communication and linking them up. But I think it always starts from the top in terms of this is what the business is doing. This is where we're aiming to be and linking everybody up. But I'm not gonna lie, it's so difficult doing that virtually because, you know, people are so disengaged. So I think it's doing more social events face to face. This lady was also saying to me, you know, I, I feel really anxious because actually I don't really m with people now outside the kind of comfort zone of going to business meetings and doing that. So I think it is those face to face encounters and people engaging in the business and knowing where they contribute and knowing their colleagues because we all like to feel like we belong and we, we get on is so important.

Yeah. And I guess we're not having those informal chats around the coffee machine or the water cooler like we used to have. Have you seen any great. I don't know if you have, but have you seen any great software tools besides the obvious things like WhatsApp and Zoom and Teams and stuff? Have you seen anything that has come out that helping with any of this or this stuff?

Not at all. I think the only thing that's coming out of it, it's a bit like things like rah rah skirts that come round and round, round. In my day I kind of sound, you know, it's terrible, isn't it? When you get to a certain age and you. In my day, when I first started working in hr, one of the, you know, it's interesting that sickness issues become sort of come round in. It's okay if I hold this down. Sickness issues come round and it was, you know, about bad backs and then it became stress and then it was anxiety and depression and things like that. What we are going to see is the only a high level of, you know, retention issues and recruitment issues, but a lot of mental health issues because people not used to interacting and everybody's world is becoming smaller and the more that you mix and you integrate with others, the better it is. And I think, you know, as a strategy for business your marketing is even more key in terms of how you're recruiting and how you, you are attracting. So it is about that more strategic level with marketing and HR working together to ensure that we are getting a clear message across about bringing people together. So then we are effectively addressing the shortfalls and the challeng that are facing. In three years time everyone will be back in the office because it's not going to work, you know, and all those office blocks that have been turned into flats and all the Costa coffee shops in the city that have closed down will be scrambling to find space.

Do you think that's where the, do you think that's where the pendulum will finally swing back to then? That everybody wants to come back into the office?

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, working from home really works at a certain level and for certain jobs but for graduate school leavers or people that are learning their trade, whatever it is, it will stunt the talent's growth with without a doubt and it will mean that people will not stay in jobs long term and that all has an impact on businesses. So it is really important those two strategies are aligned.

Yeah, it's really interesting. A couple of points there. I, you know, I, I've had a few clients that I've been working with where I've been, for example, working with someone like the marketing manager or an account manager and when I'm doing my call with them, I can see they're sitting on their bed in their bedroom because that's the only place they've got to go that's quiet away from. They might be living with their parents still. Tell us a bit about. I mean, as we record this there is a huge talent shortage. So everything you just said is compounded by the fact that it is definitely an employee's marketplace and it's difficult to recruit at the moment. So tell us about some of the key considerations you think people should be putting in place and communicating when they are recruiting new staff.

I think what's important is for me is it's kind of just stopping having a look. My dear dad used to say take time to smell the roses. So you need to kind of sit and think about what sort of person you're trying to recruit. What's the, the nature of your company in terms of what's your ethos and what you stand for. That's really important. It's all about standing out from the crowd. I think that there are lots of different job boards out there but it's, it's the wording of the job advert has got to be different. It's got to kind of really reflect who, who the company is. And I think as well that you know, it's the usual stuff, making sure the salary is competitive, making sure the job titles. Right. All those sorts of things are really, really key. Salaries are going up in certain sectors and in certain was the fact of Amazon. You can earn £14 an hour delivering Amazon parcels and you can also, you know, around 11 pound 12 an hour for working in the supermarket. So people are weighing up, you know, the having the responsibility and having all those things. So it's important to kind of really pitch it there. Other great consideration I think is where you will place the advert. You cannot be solely reliant upon placing it on adverts. There is a lot of social media and that's where the synergy between marketing and HR comes in because it is about getting the right people around, around the table to ensure that there is growth in these challenging times. Because just put an advert out there now is not going to crack it. In certain industries it will. But when you've got the added challenges, particularly for office based jobs and then people wanting and demanding to work from home, you need to attract people that fit for your business.

Yeah, so there's a couple of really interesting points there that are worth pulling out. One is that it's really important that you are clear about your culture, your vision and your values because I guess a lot of Gen Z people are special generation said people are going to be really caring about that. So you want to have clarity on that. That's more than just words on a wall but actually stuff that you live By. And the second thing is this importance of working with marketing or even if you're doing both yourself, if you're a small agency just thinking about the fact that you need to market the position you're recruiting for. Now, I want to ask you a bit of a loaded question here because this is a conversation I have a lot with my clients. But what's your views of using a recruitment agency versus trying to advertise the job yourself on LinkedIn or using some platform like. Indeed. What's your view around that?

So it's a loaded question. So does that mean that I can give my absolute honest answer?

Please do.

Yeah, completely a thousand percent honest, yes. So I wouldn't touch recruitment consultants with a barge poll and I think they have this. They have, they do have their, their space within the market for very, very hard to recruit positions or very specialist positions and I tell you why and that, that they will charge you 30% of the annual salary. They're not particularly interested in terms of getting the right candidate for you. What will happen is, is that they will come for the interview. The first candidate will then get a call to find out what questions they asked, what was important. They then ring you and then find out, you know, how did that go and what you're looking for. They prime candidates because they want the 30%. That is a massive kind of minus for me. We do recruitment here. We place our adverts on exactly the same job boards as them. We don't charge 30% salary, we just char fixed fee to place them on there. But every single candidate gets alerts. So if they've registered their CV for argument with these job boards, they get alerts for jobs you don't need to go to that cost is what I would say. And it's, you know, I don't want to be completely disrespectful. They charge a lot for doing very little. And there is other options out there where you can use a great company like myself or others out there or purchase, you know, vouchers from or credits from other job boards. But you don't need to do it is what I would say. The key to good recruitment moment is being responsive and having a good selection process that's quick as well.

One of the reasons why I love doing this podcast, I love having guests on is because often they will say the absolute opposite of me and I'm, you know, always really happy to engage in that dialogue. The reason why I tell clients that they should use an external resource and it's interesting because I hadn't really thought about people like you doing it. It's because I always say to people that you've either got time or you've got money.

Yeah.

And a lot of the people who'll be listening to this podcast and a lot of my audience are very small marketing agencies who don't are really pushed for time and they think they can cut corners by doing it themselves by posting ads on LinkedIn or doing link paying LinkedIn ads or using. Indeed. Or some of those other job boards. And they get inundated with lots of really poor quality CVs because a lot of people just throw it and hope some of it sticks. And now they've got to plow through 50100 CVs to try and find the five that are worth actually interviewing. And so that takes up a lot of time and even then they might not find the person. So I'm saying if you found a really good recruitment agency then you should use it. But what I hadn't thought about is using people like you to do to take that first layer away from the client. Because that's the bit that I find the issue is that they think they can cut costs but it ends up costing them more when they factor in those indirect costs of their time time. So I guess people should go talk to them.

Every day is a school day and this is he just. Even the benefit of the podcast, you didn't realize we did that. But yeah, I mean we charge a fraction of the cost. Right. So for argument's sake they will. A salary of 30k, you know, 30 of that, you work it out. Nine grand, isn't it?

Yeah.

And that's right, we charge 500 pound plus VAT to put the adverts out on the same job boards that they will. And we're more in control because actually we're not about getting the fee, we're about getting the right people and people come back and using us again and you're, you're spot on. I mean the process of the wording of the advert, where it's placed, sorting out, you know, is it the correct job title, those sorts of things are really important. But also the responsiveness after that. And I was only talking to a group this morning about how important it is to do your research, do look at them, look them up on social media, you know, that's really important. Silly things like their, what their personal email address is, if it's something that is rude or silly or gives an insight to that person having a look at the cv whether they flitted around or whether they stayed somewhere. And we always do telephone screenings because that's really important as well. How they answer the phone to you as an unknown number and how they communicate when you catch them off the hop gives you a really good impression. And that's a very, very key point of a. The first stage of recruitment to deciding then who goes through to the interview stage. And it all saves very busy people time and it gets the best results.

Yeah, well that's great, that's good, good advice. Let's move on to talk about. I found someone there now and I'm hiring my first employee or even my first freelancer. What and then it can become a legal minefield. So tell us about some of the baseline legal responsibilities that an employer needs to put in place to make sure that they are supporting that employee and doing everything legally correct.

Yeah, I think it'd be good for me to split up in terms of talking about an employee and then perhaps a self employed freelancer. So for an employee they have to, they're legally entitled to have their contract of employment now from day one. The good work plan changed that. So it used be within eight weeks, but now it's day one. So good practice is that you always put your offer of employment in writing so there's no confusion about what the salary is, the terms and conditions. Good practice is that you always do reference checks, always the last two employers, always when you get the references back, is checking that their dates correlate with what's on the cv. Sometimes there's gaps, sometimes there's bits missing. So that's good practice. Legally there is a contract of employment from day one, so you need to have that in place. And you also have to have a pension, obviously payroll. And the minimum policies and procedures you have to have in place is a disciplinary policy and procedure, a grievance policy and procedure and GDPR. So that's data protection, employee privacy notice, etc. So that's the bare, bare, bare minimum. But a good contract of employment, you can get free ones online. But if you're working like you guys are working in marketing and it's your own business, you need to have some additional clauses in there to protect you so they don't around copyright, data protection and obviously restricted covenants around not, not nicking your clients. So that's really important. So that's what we would call in Sussex hr. We call that an enhanced contract of employment rather than a basic contract of employment. So you know, that's to protect your Business as well from a self employed basis, instead of having a contract of employment, you have a contract for services and that's a legal document that's really important again to protect you as a business so that it's very clearly defined that they are self employed whose responsibilities they are to pay our good friend hmrc, we can never forget them in the whole business of running one. So putting one of those in, but also ensuring that you have documents to evidence that they are in fact self employed. So company registration number, also the professional liability insurance, checking ID documents, those sorts of things, you would still do the same pre engagement checks rather than pre employment checks because obviously you have a duty to your clients to make sure that they have got the necessary qualification experience to do the work.

And I don't know much too much about IR34, but I'm assuming that you would also want to know that they're not just solely working for you because I believe if they are, they're in danger or you're as an employer in danger of falling foul of IR35.

Yeah, and it's, it's happened to a company that I knew who took the risk. They, I mean it's within certain industries they take risks and I knew a company that did take the risk and they got bitten for a considerable sum of money for back pay in terms of employer contributions and they also got named and shamed. So it's actually really, really important. It was hopped the government's list in terms of things they really wanted to crack down on. But obviously the pandemic happened so that sort of went a little bit quiet, but it will come back and it will be a big issue. But also I think it's to protect yourself as well. You don't want there, it's not just from hmrc, but you don't want there to be an issue if you ever decide to not utilize them that they actually say, well hang on a minute, I am actually an employee and they could take you to employment tribunal as well. And then you have that debate. So the terminology using everything and how you treat a self employed person is really, really different to that of employed. Yeah, that's a whole other podcast that is.

Yeah, no, exactly. No, and it is, and I'm not an expert on this, but just to be clear, for anyone who's not clear about IR35, it basically says that if you hire a freelancer and your gig is the only piece of work that they do, then in the eyes of the law, they will see them as an employee of your business. So you want to make sure that they have a few other contracts with other clients as well so that you are not falling foul of that and then implement all the things that Linda mentioned. So someone might be listening to this and thinking where do I get a template for a contract of services or a template for an employment contract from? Have you got, again, I'm putting you on the spot. Have you got any recommendations of where someone could get that information from?

So acas or Unison's website, the trade union website are normally very good. What I would say is it is really important to get that condition contract rights to protect not only what you have to tick for to adhere to the Employment Rights act as what needs to be included, just watch those websites do. But it's also it won't give you the additional clauses that you need to have in there to protect your business.

Yeah, I mean this is definitely a slow down to speed up moment for all our listeners, which is a phrase I use a lot. Make sure you put these things in place. They may not feel that urgent or important when you are at the beginning, but if something comes and bites you in the backside later on, you will really wish that you had covered your backside and put these in place in the first place. So I would really recommend looking for them. I also know, I don't recommend know any, but I also know that there are a bunch of websites where you can pay for different types of templates and you would probably be able to find both contract of services and the employment contract on there as well. Let's move on to the final portion of our conversation. So I've recruited someone, I've put all of this in place. They've been with me for a while, but they're not really performing that well. Any advice on dealing with employment issues or employee issues and performance management issues? What would you say about this?

I mean, first of all, always ensure that when you make office employment that it's subject to a six month probationary period. Some employers are really worried about doing that length time and think that it's a bit long. But actually it's really, really important. It gives you time then to review their progress at the three month stage and then also at the five month stage along with the informal stuff in between. Top tip of hr, document everything. So if you have a conversation and you, you know, have got concerns, you know, the typical areas are either around their performance, could be a conduct issue, could be around attendance, could be a sickness issue, but you document everything in terms of dating it you know who was present, what was discussed and what was agreed. If you haven't documented it in the eyes of employment law, it hasn't happened. So it's really, really important. I think the key thing is if we stick with performance issues is sitting down, doing informal one to one supervisions. All documented of course, highlighting the concern, seeing if there are any, you know, one is the biggest trick is obviously the biggest problem first of all is them recognizing perhaps that there's an issue. That's the first barrier and it's quite painful sometimes but I think it's outlining what the expectations are, looking and seeing what support, training etc can be given given a reasonable time scale to improve and then reviewing it's recognizing as individuals we all learn in different ways. Some people learn by doing, some people learn by being shown, some people learn by reading about it. So it's trying different angles, view it like a game of po. So if ever you're playing a game of ball, you want to the best thing you can do is cover every single pocket. So it's giving them every opportunity to improve. There's no surprises. They're very clear and reviewing and addressing it again to they're in the middle, the ball's in the middle of the pocket, middle of the table, all pockets are covered. That there's no sort of health issues or anything like that that is affecting them. And there's a, you know, recognition that there is a, a problem. So that's, that's my kind of top tip. To go through conduct issues and sicknesses is quite a lot. But I think, you know, ultimately honesty is always the difficult as it is. And my big tip is actually just treat people how you'd like to be treated yourself. I think that's really important is always treating people with respect, sometimes difficult when you're running a business and perhaps people are not as respectful back to you because sometimes you're raising tricky issues. But it's we're the adult in this situation. We have to sit back and kind of, you know, take on board, you know, what they're saying and the emotion and the impact that that has. But I think honesty is always the best policy in treating how you like to be treated yourself.

It's an interesting one and I'd also add to that I that don't bury your head in the sand about problems. If you see a problem, address it as soon as you can. And I think if you address it as close to the actual situation then it's going to be easier to address it isn't it?

Yeah. And I think always make sure you address it way before the two year. So you don't want them getting two year service if there is issues of any kind because they then have full employment rights under that. They don't have the right to take you really to employment tribunal unless it is whistleblowing or any claim of discrimination. But you still. The other thing to remember though is that even if you, you a bit cutthroat with an individual and you've got other people in the business, that sends a big message to them as well. So you should always look after your staff, if that makes sense. So it's getting the balance right. But I think seek advice as well, particularly if it's performance, particularly if it's disciplinary. Because it's always good to use one of your who Wants to Be a Millionaire lifelines and phone a friend, I. E. A HR person or someone like that to get some advice. And I'm always willing to give advice and guidance to help people along their way, you know, because it is tricky and, and particularly when you're a small business, it's very close knit, it's very tight and you know people quite well and the difficulties that perhaps they have but we're still running the business.

It always, when I speak to a client and they say, and I ask them about their culture and they say oh, we have a family culture, I'm always a bit like my amber warning lights start to go off because I always say, well you know, families are very dysfunctional and boundaries get blurred. So that isn't always the best culture to have. Let me just ask you one other question. That is a loaded question again. What is your view on someone who has a six month probation and then their employee decides, decides as they get to month five to extend it. What do you think about that?

If the employee extends it, employer decides.

To extend it because maybe they're obviously not happy with the employee, the new employee. So rather than kind of saying well you've not, you've not passed your six months, they decide to extend their probation.

Well, I would expect that there would be some dialogue prior to that to know that there was issues, but absolutely extend rather than terminate if there is hope, if there is a glimpse of. Are that actually the areas of concern that there's likely to be an improvement then I, I think an extension is, is a good idea. If it's because you're feeling guilty, then it's not. But my biggest concern would be somebody who then is extended at five Months, then extending again. You know, they've extended for two months and it's, and we're getting nearer and nearer the year Mark, you get splinters on, you know, if you sit on a fence, don't you, for too long.

See my view about this and I'm no HR expert. Well, I've always said to my clients, don't extend a probation because if someone hasn't passed at six months then there's, there's a reason. Unless like you say, there is a glimmer of hope. But often, you know, if you, if, if you feel like as an employer you've done your absolute best job, you've been best practice, you supported them, you've addressed any concerns way before the six month, if you get to six months, are you extending it because you feel in your mind that's a smaller problem than letting them go and having to recruit someone new, or are you extending it because you genuinely see that there's a hope that they can improve?

Yeah, I, is always in exceptional circumstances that things are extended. We've done it when somebody's had been off because they were off sick for genuine reasons. We've had cancer treatment, we've had where somebody's broken a leg and things like that. Covid was a good one as well. Where people are off and things like that. Or the fact is that there is particular training that they need to do in order for, to do the job. But I agree, I mean, I think it is in exceptional circumstances that it is extended. But I think sometimes companies are guilty of keeping hold of staff because actually, actually being without them feels far more daunting than having someone who is perhaps only performing at 50%.

Yeah. And I think we need to be really mindful that if we keep a member of staff that appears to their other colleagues to be getting away with murder because they're not performing, then that can have a really detrimental effect. So again, don't bury your head in the sands, address these things, but hopefully, you know, do it way before the six month period. Listen, we could go on talking for ages, but I'm conscious of time. So let me ask you the last question that I ask all of my guests, which is if you could go back in time and give young Linda, just starting out on her own in business, a piece of advice, what would it be?

So I won't give the same answer that I gave you earlier. I trust your gut instinct. I think that your gut instinct is never, ever wrong. And I think I, I love to use analogies and, and the reason why you got instinct never wrong, is always view it that, you know, you see birds, I'm sorry, trust your gut instinct and also have confidence in yourself and I think in the decisions you make. Because you see a bird, right next time you pass in a tree and look up and there's a bird on the thinnest of twigs off the branch and you think, goodness me. But actually the reason why they're on their thinnest twig is because actually if it breaks, they've got confidence that they can fly. And that's basically it. So as a business owner, if you haven't got confidence in yourself, you can't expect anybody else to. Yeah, you got two tips there.

So that's good. And, you know, one question I asked a guest the other week, week, which I thought, I thought maybe should ask everyone, this is a supplementary question, is would younger, would young Linda listen to that if you were going back and telling her that? I don't know, hopefully she would.

I think so. I think the thing is, we're all very cautious, aren't we? And I think that this whole thing of what if, it. What if, what if, what if? But I think that I joke and, and sort of say I have conversations with fellow MDs and kind of go, wouldn't it be great one day to just sit on a till and just, you know, hear the sound of beep, beep as you're kind of. As you're, you know, just scanning and not having any responsibility and is with Sonia, actually. And she said, yeah, but you and me wouldn't last because within three days you'd be rearranging the shelves to kind of make it more attractive to people. And. And everyone has started a business because the fact they've got that in them. But it is just remembering that to have confidence in yourself and follow your gut instincts because the more people you surround yourself with it, it kind of. You can lose your way sometimes. Sometimes. Or something doesn't quite go to plan and you don't trust your gut.

Well, and also I think that's compounded in this day and age where we're bombarded with so much information that it's easy to not trust your gut instinct because you've got someone over here telling you to go left, someone over here telling you to go right. This person saying, go straight on, and you're thinking, actually, I should stand still, but you don't know what to do. So I think trusting your gut instinct is particularly relevant in the crazy world of all this news. And information that we bombarded with. If people want to find out more about you and Sausage hr, where, where are the best ways for them to go? We'll put these links into the show notes.

Yeah, I mean obviously I'll give you sort of my telephone number and email address. You can look at the website. Although it's my very old website, there's a brand new one in behind the scenes. But I think people are welcome to contact me. I'm always, you know, more than happy to help businesses and, and give them words of advice. You know, I don't do the hard sell. I actually just generally want to, want to help because it just helps the world keep moving forward, doesn't it? So more than have a chat, they just got mention your name, Rob. That's it, that's what they're going to do.

Well, we'll put, we'll put those links in the notes. I'm just the listeners that one of the reasons why I've sort of worked with Linda over the last 10 plus years is because I know that she gives no nonsense advice and I find without being disparaging to your industry or your colleagues, but sometimes HR people don't really understand what it's like to run a small business. So they give you this big business corporate advice which just isn't going to work for a small business that you know, is investing so much and so much risk in hiring that first employee. They want to get it right but they, the advice they're being given just doesn't fit. So and also I think Linda is, you know, she understands what it's like to be an employer and therefore, you know, she's sort of on our side as much as the employee side. And that's a breath of fresh air, I think from some of the people I've experienced. So we will put your links into the show notes and there's a whole bunch of things we could talk about in a future episode. So we'll definitely get you back for a future episode for part two and probably part three. But thank you so much for joining us today. I know that the listeners will find a bunch of really useful insights in there. And as I said, you said a few things that are different to what I said. So that always gets me thinking as well. So I appreciate that.

No problem. Thanks for having me.

Sam.