How to let go of Perfectionism and Bounce Back from Mistakes - #BossTalks FT. Ebony Beckwith

I got a feeling that you got a feeling that this is gonna be good. I got a feeling that you got a feeling that this is gonna be good. Say hello to the world winner. I'm the queen of em all.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Boss Talks, a new series featuring candid career conversations with people I admire and trust to keep it real. Today we're talking about something I can totally relate to, and that's letting go of perfectionism. I know there was a point in my career when I thought it was a good thing to try and do everything perfectly. But in reality, the fear of making mistakes is what was holding me back from going after new career opportunities and really being my authentic self. I've often referred to myself as a recovering perfectionist because I've definitely had to learn how to ask for help and bounce back after making mistakes. But I've come to realize that this process of moving away from perfectionism is actually a sign of growth for me. And that's the framing I want to take into today's conversation. I couldn't be more excited to welcome someone I personally have a career crush on. The brand new CEO of TIAA and the former CEO of Chase Consumer Banking, Thasunda Brown Duckett. Thasunda, welcome to Boss Talks. I am so thrilled to have you here with us today.

Thank you so much, Ebony. I feel the exact same way.

So today's episode is all about letting go of perfectionism, which I shared is something that I personally had to learn and sometimes the hard way. Thoshanda, you make it look so easy, but I know there's so much more to someone's journey to success than what we think we know or see on the surface. And that's what I want to dig in today. So let's jump in, starting with the first question. So your career trajectory has been so inspiring to watch, and I'm sure there are a lot of people watching today who who would join me in saying we've been cheering you on from the sidelines and you just took on another big role as CEO of tiaa, which, for those of you who may not know, is a Fortune 100 provider of secure retirement and outcome focused investment solutions. So congratulations on that. Can you take us back to where it all started for you and what your journey has been to get there?

For me, you know, the truth is, I did not dream of becoming a CEO. That was not in my consideration set. But I grew up in Rochester, New York, moved to New Jersey, and we moved to Texas, and we moved with everything that we owned, in a car, two siblings and myself, my mom and my dad, and all of our belongings, which means there was not much. And so I know what it's like to literally start your life at the bottom. What my parents taught me, which I think is key to where I am today, are my ownable assets. They taught me the importance of whatever you do, you do it with excellence or you don't do it at all.

I feel like we can't have a conversation about perfectionism without talking about the pressure of black excellence. I know for me, my mom was very intentional about how she raised me and insisted that I be excellent. For me, I know that. I remember if there was so much as an eraser mark on my paper, she'd look at my homework and she'd say, do it again, do it again. And sometimes I had to create my own paper just to turn in my homework, because she was like, it's not excellent enough. It's not good enough. You can do better. I laugh, and it's a funny story now, but I'm grateful for it. Can you share about how this showed up for you or if it still shows up for you?

I think, honestly, Ebony, I think what our parents were giving us was an understanding of what we're up against. And I think for me, knowing that I had to be so good that I couldn't be denied if there was an opportunity where I was just as good or a little bit better and I did not get it. I didn't beat myself up as much because I said I wasn't so good, that I couldn't be denied. But that comes with a lot of pressure. And if we're honest, I think this level of being a perfectionist is also at the intersection of confidence and lack thereof and insecurities and vulnerabilities. Because in our pursuit to be a perfectionist, we're doing mental gymnastics in our head. We are second guessing ourselves. We're saying, I could make it a little bit better, I can make it a little bit better versus saying I'm at a place where I produce the best that I could produce at this moment and putting that pen down or that pencil down. And I think that comes from a really deep place of understanding what it means to have black excellence, but also the pressure that it puts on ourselves when we are not ascending or when we don't get that opportunity, we start to do those mental gymnastics. And I think that's where it can become counterproductive in our own confidence building.

That is so true. One of My mentors tells me, to this day, she'll remind me to tell myself, I am enough. I have enough. I do enough. And that's a mantra that I have to repeat because I have a hard time sometimes letting that go. I love what you said about the mental gymnastics. So what advice can you offer for our audience when dealing with this perfectionism, especially women?

You?

Yeah, I mean, the advice your mentor gave you is an advice that I'd hold with me as well, that I am enough, I think, reminding ourselves that we are worthy and deserving to be in the room, and also reminding ourselves that the reality is, to get to the room, we were not perfect. The reality is we went through a lot of ups and downs, whether it's our own, how we were raised, narrative, or. Or whether it was those moments where you had to overcome your lack of confidence or insecurity. And so I think sometimes reminding ourselves that that excellence lies within those levels of not being perfect. And in fact, if you are striving for perfection, that's okay. You're striving, but realizing that the job is never done and perfection is never, ever attained. But the pursuit of always trying to be the best version of yourself is where you really want to be. But not ever settling on saying perfection is the destination. Because, in fact, if you ever believe you've reached that level of perfection, you probably have marginalized or lowered your standards.

So let's transition. So that mentality that we had when we were younger, of needing to do things perfectly or not at all, that definitely for me, crept into what both my personal and professional life. And this was really especially apparent for me when I needed to ask for help. And that was something I had to actually learn. But when I did, it really opened up my capacity for leadership because I was able to collaborate and also consider new ideas. Can you talk about just your process for asking for help? Did you have to learn to do that? Did that come naturally for you? And how did you use maybe your mentors for that?

Yeah, I mean, I come from a sports background, and I think my mindset is understanding that in order for me to be excellent, I need a coach. And how I define a coach in the sense of mentorship means that mentorship is all around me. I just have to have an openness and a willingness to receive it. And so let me tell you what that means for me. Ebony, my executive assistant, mentors me because she shows me the ability to put someone before self and how she presents herself. You know, the person who delivers your coffee with that Smile every day is mentoring you, reminding you about kindness. And so I just think that when we define mentorship, sometimes we narrow that definition and we look for one person to be all things for us. And the reality is there is so much that makes me, me, and you, you. Which means I may need a mentor for the examples I just raised, or a mentor on how to navigate motherhood, or being a wife or being an executive or being vulnerable or being a dreamer. And so I think the goal is not to rely on rented titles for your mentorship, but rely on the character with. In individuals that connect to what you need development or reminding or help with, I think is the most important thing.

I hope you all are getting this. So mentorship can come from anywhere. It's about that character, the qualities that we're looking for, not the title. I think that's absolutely.

I like to say, ebony, I rent my title. I own my character. And I just. I mean, honestly. And I think if we all operate in that space. Space, knowing that titles are rented, you give yourself a breath.

So, Tashonda, I'm a big believer in taking risk. And I recently wrote something on Boss notes encouraging people to try something new, even if it means you might not get it 100% right all the time. And a few people wrote me to say that they wanted to take more risks, but they fear the criticism that comes from making a mistake. So how do you think about taking risk at work? And also, do you have any guidance on how to bounce back if you've made a mistake?

First, let's just remember we can't escape criticism. Just my being can invite criticism. And so I think if we think of criticism in the context that there is nothing that you do or do not do that will exempt you from criticism is step one. I think step two is knowing that it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to invite feedback in. No one wants to hear it, but we all need it. But what I would encourage everyone to think about is what are your hopes and your dreams? What are you really trying to accomplish? And in the pursuit of making and attaining those goals, there will be risk that we have to take. And even if we fall down, you never know that in that risk may be where that real unlock that real opportunity or learning, if nothing else resides. And I think that's just so important. Risk is difficult. We all want to stay in that safe space sometimes. But to be the best version of you, to unlock your talent, you will be taking risks.

That's right. Well, I want to Go back to something you said about feedback and criticism. So you don't see those as the same thing. So I look at feedback as a gift, giving it and receiving it.

Right.

So tell me how you've learned how to. If you think of feedback. Some people think of feedback as criticism, right? So how did you learn how to kind of change that for yourself?

Well, listen, feedback is a gift, but sometimes it feels like a gift. You don't want feedback if we're being, you know, if I'm being honest. I mean, feedback is a gift, but sometimes you're hesitant to hear it. But the difference between feedback and criticism for me is anchored on intention. If someone is giving me feedback, I receive it better than criticism because I think feedback for me at least says, this person wants me to be better. This person is giving me a true gift. This person is helping me with my blind spots. This person is on my team. Criticism. I may not know where your intention is lying. Are you critiquing me to make me feel small in order for you to feel big? Are you critiquing me because you just haven't learned how to articulate it in a way that I can receive it or feedback? And so I just think feedback is important. Criticism, you have to sometimes navigate. But here's the most important thing, Ebony. Whether it's criticism or feedback, because sometimes the receiver, we can mix it up. The point is, we should be open to receiving what people have to say. But you have to calibrate that in your own prism, and you have to say, I am open and receiving the feedback in the critique. But then I am the CEO of Thasunda, and therefore I have to process everything that people have said. And I either say exactly the way in which you shared it with me is the way I will receive it, or I will say the way in which you said it. I would modify it, but I can receive it. Or I will say return to sender, because all take back your. Exactly. But I think it's important because sometimes criticism or feedback may not be exactly the point of what you're trying to solve for. It's someone expressing their thoughts. And you have a responsibility to process it in a way that you can decide how is this going to make me better. And sometimes there's feedback that you will receive that you will disagree with, and that's okay. But the trick is to always be open to receiving it and have gratitude for. For what people are willing to share, even if it's not always positive.

You just said something that I want to take us back to. Because it's something we talk a lot about. And I know I talk about this personally. I have this concept of I have Team E, and I am the CEO of Team E. And I have a personal board of directors at all levels in my life. And so. But it's ultimately, I have to make the decision. So when it's. Whether it's accepting feedback or criticism or whatever it is, advice, guidance, I have to internalize that and make sure it works for me. Because people have all kinds of advice, suggestions for you. So do you feel the same way? And who's in your team?

Wow. First, I do feel the same way. I am the president, the CEO of Thichonda. But I realize in order to be the best, I need to have those truth tellers around me. And I need to make sure that I am the biggest truth teller of myself. And I think that's important too. But who's around me? Oh, my goodness. First of all, you have your core board, the ones who really understand who I am at my core. And that's that sisterhood for me and some brothers in the brotherhood. But my network that know the essence of who I am, and therefore, they may not be on the board to help me think through complex issues, but they are my board reminding me who I am and what I am here to do. And then you have your other boards. You have your boards when you are working through those complex issues or when you are, as we are, EBONY senior executives, and that loneliness that comes with it and being able to connect with people that really understand what that means and how to navigate through it. So I think that for me, I create boards that really, really embody all the aspects of who I am, because not one board can be the best board for all aspects of me. And I just think you can't put that pressure on your one board because you will not be able to get the best advice. You have to give yourself permission to say, what am I trying to tap into? And who are the best people that I trust that can give me that? And it could be my children, it could be my spouse, it could be my girlfriends, it could be my guy friends, it could be people at work, or it could be even the people that I mentor, because there's a lot to me, and I need that coach and. And that feedback from a host of different people.

That's right. I know there are a lot of parents in the audience, so I just wanna take a moment. We started off kind of talking about our parents and what we learned and that feeling of black excellence. So I'd love to know just what are you teaching your kids right now that you hope that they take with them into adulthood? Or is there anything you're teaching them with regard to fighting that urge towards perfectionism that you can share with other parents who are building these mini bosses?

Right. Well, I would start with affirmations. If you ask my children who they are, they will say that they are smart, kind and brave. And that's from my 5 year old all the way up. Because I think reaffirming what you want from your children is the most important thing.

That's right.

I would also say that I am a huge believer in teaching my children that the only job they really have is to be the best version of themselves. And I think it's really important when you are this mom that you know is ascending and who's trying to be the best version of herself, which is me, I'm trying to be the best version. And I never want my excellence to be the thing that my children feel they cannot be. And therefore it's a negative in their own psyche. And so I am reminding my children to be the best version of themselves, anchored in character.

And it's so important, especially as we think about the next generation coming up, there's so much that they're dealing with, like you said, that we never had to deal with. So. Yeah, well, we've been 12, we've been five. We've never been five in 2021, right?

Correct.

Corre. So, Tashonda, final question. I'm asking everyone what their superpower is, and I'm going to make it a little harder for you and ask you for your superpower and your advice for those who haven't been able to yet identify what their personal superpower is.

My superpower is where my passion lies, which is to inspire. And that shows up through my ability and quest to connect with others and through always understanding the power of community. And so what I would say to those who are saying, I don't know my superpower or I don't know my purpose, let's break it all the way down. And I start with letting everyone know that you are extraordinary. And if I play back these words, it will connect to you. Extraordinary is kindness. Are you kind? That can be your superpower. Extraordinary is intellectual curiosity. Are you curious? Extraordinary is giving all of those adjectives that define who you are is your superpower. The only question we have to ask ourselves is, is what aspect of that are you going to unlock and unleash. And the unleash is where your superpower lies.

That was so inspiring, Thasunda. I wanna thank you for giving us an inside look into the life of a real boss. This has been such a treat for me and for everyone watching at home. So I just wanna say thank you so much for being here and sharing your authentic spirit self with us.

Thank you, Ebony. It was a pleasure.

And now I want to hear what you have to say. So let's hear your questions.

Hi, Ebony. You know the saying, don't let perfect be the enemy of good? I find it hard to share things that are a work in progress because I'm afraid it'll reflect poorly on me. What's your advice for getting over this?

Hi Jeremy, great question. And you know, it sounds like you already know that perfectionism is getting in the way of collaboration, which is so, so essential in getting the best possible product. So my advice for sharing your work early is to do it with some boundaries. For example, let your team know that you're working on something that's not finished. Or give them specific instructions for how and where to plug in. Be explicit and say how you'd like the feedback. You know, here but not there. Or ask support for figuring out X but that you've got Y covered. I find that people are often eager to help. They just don't always know how to be the most helpful. And it can get pretty overwhelming unless you offer some direction. So try setting up some boundaries the next time you share your work so that you can gain that helpful input and perspective of your team without feeling bombarded. I just want to thank you all for sending us your questions. I will definitely include some each episode, so please add your questions in the comments on our LinkedIn page or or send me a tweet. Ebonybeckwith using Bosstalks I hope you all enjoyed today's conversation on perfectionism. To continue building valuable skills for your career, head on over to Trailhead Salesforce's free online learning platform that helps anyone skill up for in demand jobs in the Salesforce ecosystem. With that, I'm Ebony Beckwith. Thank you for tuning in to Boss Talks.