The Secret to Scaling Ambition Across Industries | Dreamforce 2026

And now, our CEO and Chair, Mr. Marc Benioff.

All right. All right. Thank you so much, everybody. Really excited. How's everybody doing today? Did you all have a good time at the concert last night?

Yeah.

And is Dreamforce going well?

Yeah.

All right, fantastic. Well, we have a fantastic entrepreneur here and a great leader of our industry who I've known for a tremendous amount of time, and I'm thrilled that he's back at Dreamforce. So welcome, Travis Kalanick. Great to see you.

Good to see you too, Mark.

All right.

I want to get Matthew McConaughey pitching my stuff. That was awesome. I'll buy whatever he's selling.

This is going to be a very easy interview.

So, you know, we've known each other for 21 years.

Yeah, amazing, huh?

Do you remember where we met?

I do.

Should I tell her or you?

Davos. Yeah, we met right when you were discovering the concept for Uber itself.

Yeah, it's true.

You were like in Davos trying to get a car and you could not.

That's fair enough. That's fair enough. That's funny. Well, I'm sure there's a lot of Marc Benioff fans in the audience.

Why don't you actually just tell us the vision? What happened actually? There you are, it's 2 decades ago, you're in this little ski town, you're having all these thoughts, whoa, why can I not just get a car on my phone?

I mean, look, here's the thing. So I'll make it quick on the Davos thing. They allow sort of young entrepreneurs to come, they call them tech pioneers, and it's, we're just there for like entertainment and just sort of like we're the crazy weirdos. And they let a few of us through every year. And I was watching you hold court at Davos, and I was like, okay, that's a thing. And basically, Mark runs Davos. The idea for Uber, and it's crazy, I mean, I don't know what it's like today because I don't go anymore, but the idea for Uber was actually, was originally in Paris. We were at a conference, me and my buddy, I was sort of in between things. It was the end of 2008, and my buddy Garrett was like, I wish we could push a button and get a ride. It was December, it was snowing, and before Uber in Paris, if you went out to a restaurant, had dinner, you're walking home. Doesn't matter how far, that's just what it was. The metro shuts down and taxis won't pick you up, so we were on a 3-mile walk back. He said, I wish we could push a button and get a ride. And I'm like, damn.

Yeah.

That's pretty good. He was like, let's go buy 20 S-Classes, hire 40 drivers, and get a parking garage. And I'm like, no. I'm like, there's enough cars out there. Let's use them better. And so the way we started Uber was, you know, my co-founder Garrett, he brought the classy, and I brought the efficiency. And it was off to the races. Yeah.

You mentioned Paris, and I mean, that was a memorable moment. You rolled Uber out in Paris. Were you shocked to see the reaction and kind of the tension that started to develop in that kind of a unique moment versus San Francisco?

Look, we saw tension everywhere we went. I, you know, my line back then was, I, you know, sort of scratched my head and I'd be like, I really don't know how one citizen taking another citizen across town became so damn controversial. And it's kind of interesting when you think about it that way, because that's all it is. We started in San Francisco, and 3 months after we launched, there was a cease and desist by the city of San Francisco. and the state of California, and all we were doing was black cars. So the black cars in California, you see it has a TCP license on it. They're all licensed, commercially licensed, commercially insured. Instead of picking up their phone and taking an order, it was picking up your phone and taking an order. They decided they're going to send us a cease and desist that threatened me with 90 days in jail for every ride that had happened. That was the beginning of Uber.

So 3 months after we launched, That's a long jail time right now, huh?

Well, at that time, it was 20,000 years in jail. Today, I don't know, it'd be like 100 billion years in jail. So yeah, it was a little weird. And it's— but it goes to show you, like, we weren't doing anything wrong. That's why I'm not in jail. It's funny. Okay. But it goes to show you when you're disrupting something, what can come back at you, especially if it's an industry that at its very core outlaws competition, which is a pretty wild situation. That's the taxi world. Happy to get into it if we want, or we could use our time in another way. It's up to you, Mark.

I mean, the world has transformed now from that moment. I mean, looking back over 2 decades, you completely transformed how we all get around.

Well, we— you now can push a button and get a ride. And so, you know, there's like a fun trajectory or sorts. You could sort of look at the different companies I did. The thing I did before Uber was called Red Swoosh, and it was networking software to move data around networks really efficiently, like a super geeky networking thing. And the way I think about it is like, there's, you know, a lot of times I talk about bits and atoms and digitizing the physical world, which is really, and I'll get into what that means, it's really treating atoms like bits. We know the bits world is a computer. CPU manipulates the bits, storage stores bits, network moves bits from point A to point B. But if you're digitizing the physical world, treating atoms like bits, you're like, okay, CPU manipulates bits, what manipulates atoms?

Manufacturing.

Storage stores bits. What stores atoms? That's real estate. Network moves bits from point A to point B. What moves atoms? That's transport or logistics. So you have these 3 core computing resources in what I refer to as an atoms-based computer. And I did networking software before Uber, then I did Uber. So I went from networking software, networking bits, to networking atoms. And after Uber, I was like, I wanna go after the computer as a whole. And, you know, there's a ton of things to do in digitizing real estate, and there's a ton of things to do in digitizing manufacturing, CPU, and storage for the physical world. And so the first thing we rolled out was, a food computer. We are automating an entire industry known as the food industry with manufacturing real estate.

That was how this started, Cloud Kitchens.

Yeah, that's right.

The post-Uber company.

That's right.

Cloud Kitchens. You don't call it Cloud Kitchens anymore.

Well, it's still called Cloud Kitchens. We just do a lot of things besides that. So the overall company's called Atoms, and we automate industries. Some people might call it physical AI, industrial AI, but it's more than that. It's just we take an industry and we automate the whole damn thing, but they're physical, gritty, atoms-based industries. Food is one of them, started as cloud kitchens. We're also doing mining. We're also doing transport. There's a lot of cool things in there. Like a couple months ago, I was in a mine in the middle of Amazon, the Amazon, There's nothing there but that mine. And there's a truck fully loaded that's 2 million pounds going 35 miles an hour autonomously. And so there's a lot of really cool—

This is the company that you bought, this company, is that right?

So what happened is I— okay, so we're— Catch me up on this. Mark's keeping me honest here. Okay.

So We have that relationship, don't we?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You should see us. It's good. I like it. Okay, so we're like, okay, let's— the first thing I did was called Cloud Kitchens, and we're like, we're going to digitize food. We're going to make a computer, a food computer. And the overall idea is, can you make a meal that's prepared and delivered to you so efficient that it approaches the cost of going to the grocery store. I mean, if you can do that, you've done some really cool stuff. What you do is you, you're basically giving people their time back, which is often what happens in the, let's call it the atoms-based computer. You are giving people their time back, the most important luxury in life. And so you go, cool story, but how do you do it? One, you need to automate the production of the food. So that's food robotics. 2, you need to automate the movement of the food, whether it be inbound logistics, trucks, freight, midsize commercial, all the way to the end user, a vehicle that brings the food to you autonomously. So think of like, you see the Waymos out there, but what about something that keeps food at temperature? that's going towards you 35, 45 miles an hour, but safely, and high-quality meal at the end of that. But then the third thing you've got to do is industrial real estate, because online delivery is essentially— online delivery of food is, you know, when you do DoorDash, Uber Eats, that is e-commerce. And so you need industrial warehouses to do the logistics from, But because food has a 30-minute half-life, after it's made, every 30 minutes, it's like just getting less valuable. The manufacturing, i.e., the production of the food, has to happen in the same place the logistics do, and it has to be close to you. So we have facilities in this industrial e-commerce real estate for manufacturing and logistics in every major city in 30 countries around the world, many of them. So like here in the Bay Area, probably like 20 facilities. That is the digitized real estate, robotics that makes the food, and we're getting into the courier piece of it now. And the minute I went into courier, I had to get my band— the band back together because at Uber, we had an autonomy program that was catching up to Waymo. When I left Uber, the team that came in divested autonomy.

We don't have to go there.

We don't have to go there. It's not that interview. It's not that interview. I agree. But we got the band back together because we're getting back to autonomy.

But we do want to know the origin story on Cloud Kitchens. That is important.

I was at Uber Eats. We were building Uber Eats. We were making it awesome. And we started seeing kitchens, restaurants that were on Uber Eats, that were just in kitchens. There's no restaurant as you know it. It was a regulated kitchen. It had the little letter grade and all that, but it wasn't a restaurant as you know it. It was a commissary. We started— the first ones we saw were actually in Melbourne. And the idea around cloud kitchens was how can you do this in a much more efficient way? So 30 kitchens in a single facility. We buy the land, we do the construction, and then we lease the kitchens, these delivery-only locations, to restaurants, restaurant groups, restaurant enterprises.

And how many of those locations are there now?

Oh, I mean, high hundreds.

Yeah. So you have basically, that's like restaurants, and then who's picking those up? Is it Uber Eats and DoorDash and coming to get them? Totally.

So first of all, the high hundreds, that's— but multiply by 30 or 40 because there's 30 kitchens in each. So tens of thousands of restaurants.

Yeah.

And so what happens is they'll list in Uber Eats and DoorDash the same way you normally would. You push a button and order. The courier comes to our facility as if they were coming to a restaurant, but they wave the phone in front of a camera and the locker pops open that has the food they're supposed to pick up. Behind the scenes, when you order, the restaurant starts making the food, an AGV comes, picks the food up when it's done, brings it to front of house, it gets put in a locker, and then of course the courier waves his phone in front of a camera, locker pops open, he gets it. And you're saving minutes everywhere. Those minutes mean that the distribution of the food gets cheaper and cheaper and cheaper because people are waiting around less.

Yeah.

And your food is higher and higher quality Because you're getting it faster.

Now, in the facility, is it robotic? Is it humans? What is going on? How do you make that happen so quickly?

So it starts, everything starts, you know, sort of very manual. It's a normal kitchen, and little by little you automate it. We just rolled out food robotics, like we rolled out a bit ago. We have restaurants using it. Think of it as like if you walk into a Chipotle, The frontline of Chipotle is just automated. What that means is your meal to the gram has everything it's supposed to have. There's far fewer mistakes. You get it faster, you get it at a higher quality, and it's cheaper. So the meal, we talk about the cost of meals these days, et cetera, the cost comes down. And what's interesting is, like, you know, look, in AI, there's a lot of discussion about jobs and labor and things like this. But what's so interesting when you're talking about home meals, these are meals you have at home, the labor that we're taking away is yours, right? So this is not labor in a restaurant, this is labor for e-commerce, essentially, so that you don't have to do it yourself.

Yeah. And this has gone very well, right? Because how many years have you been at this now?

So we started this 8 years ago.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's turned into an incredible business almost overnight.

So we're having a lot of fun. I think the thing to keep in mind, and you see this with folks who really go after atoms-heavy industry, is the atoms take longer than the bits. I think it was like the other night, Mark, you introduced me to an entrepreneur. He was like 24 years old or something. He's like, got a 2-year-old business, 3-year-old business that's doing like $4 billion in revenue or something wild like this. And I'm like— and he's like, yeah, we went from like $100 million last year to $4 billion this year.

Yeah.

And that's cool. It's cool, okay? But the atoms-based world works slower. So think about this, like Elon with Tesla, How many years did it take before he was doing 100,000 vehicles a year? I mean, it was probably like 15 years. It took 15 years to get the rocket that's going up to come down and land. But once you get it, oh, wow. And so we're starting to get to that, oh, wow, now. Because I have a robotics division that's pushing out a lot of robotics that helps with the production. We're about to get the courier thing going. And now the food computer's working. Now you can, you know, and I'd say in a short period of time, some, in some short period of time, you're gonna start seeing the, the cost of a meal that's prepared and delivered to you starting to come down dramatically. And when that happens, it's a big deal. Right now, online delivery, which is thought of as a huge category, it's 2% of all meals in the US, just 2%. E-commerce, on the other hand, retail is 25%. So when that cost comes down to parity, you're going to see a huge multiplication in sort of the number of meals, of course, that are coming across, the quality and sort of variety and selection you get.

Yeah.

And the time that you get back because of it.

So you're in this post-Uber moment, you have this vision for cloud kitchens.

Mm-hmm.

You have this idea that you're going to have these hubs. You can have multiple restaurants in every hub. The hubs are kind of hybrid robots and humans and automation and all that's going along. And now this is working after, you know, 8 years. But then all of a sudden this year, you all of a sudden said, Wow, this is a really cool company. I could acquire this and now turn this into another industry. Is that a fair characterization?

It's close. Like I said, I was starting to look at the courier stuff. Word got out that, oh shit, Travis is coming back to autonomy. Partners started to come out of the woodworks like, hey, I want autonomous wheelbase for freight, or I want autonomous wheelbase for blank. Uber came back and said, hey, I know we'd love to use your autonomous stuff if you're going to do it again.

Right.

Getting the band back together meant, okay, well, the guy who's running ATG, when Uber had an autonomous program, is working for me doing my robotics. There's another guy, Anthony Levandowski, who was doing an autonomous mining company that I was the largest investor in. I acquired his company. Brought them in. He's our CTO of autonomy, and then we're off to the races. And we're also now in the mining business, and that's how the whole thing wraps up.

And it is kind of awesome, right? Restaurants, mining in the same company.

It's freaking awesome.

Yeah.

But the thread that pulls through it, of course, you have this framework for admins-based computation, but the But it's also, we go after large industries and automate them one after another. When we're done with mining, we're going to go to another. Right now, we've got food and mining, and then there's platforms we do, like we do real estate platform that we use for ourselves, of course, but we also build things for other people. We have a transport platform that, of course, we do for ourselves for all of the autonomous things that are happening in our industry efforts, but other people can use as well. It helps subsidize and pay for the investment that we're making.

What is a transport platform? Explain that to us.

So, like, so as it relates to robotics, we believe in specialized robotics that move and act in the physical world. And I'll explain what that really— another way to think about that is non-humanoids. That doesn't mean that I think humanoids suck. They're going to do lots of cool things, but you don't put a humanoid in a car to drive it. You don't put a humanoid in a kitchen to make— if you needed 1,000 pancakes an hour, you wouldn't have a humanoid do it. You'd have an iron apparatus, you'd put batter in it, it would cook it perfect, perfectly brown, perfectly circular, and you'd be churning out 500 a minute. So when you go to industrial scale, humanoids aren't the thing. specialized robotics are. And the minute you go to specialized robotics, you're like, well, they do 2 things. They move and they act. If they're going to move, that's on wheels, usually. And if it's on wheels, you need to do wheelbase autonomy. You can't depend on somebody else to do that because honestly, almost nobody does it. And if you depend on them, they're going to say, hey, you can use our wheelbase autonomy. It'll just cost you 120% of your revenue. So you just got to own it. And so that's why we do that.

Sounds like this could be more companies or more technology that starts spinning out of this?

There's lots of cool stuff. So, like, for instance, you hear about the frontier models, and you talk to Dario and Sam, but, like, there's frontier models in the physical world too that are totally different. Because instead of, like, the input being all of the internet, and I'm downloading all these words and trying to do something with it, Right. We are— have sensors that sense the physical world and bring in point clouds and video, and you go, okay, what do I do with that? And like, driving's really interesting, right? Because in digital AI, the output is a paragraph of something. In physical AI, the output is speed and direction. Just 2 things. That's it. Like, your tokens on the output side are like 2 tokens. And so it's a totally different thing. And so to do that well, there's a whole effort we have internally is defining the frontier of the physical world AI, or what I call industrial AI. Yeah. I'm riffing hard.

No, that's right. Right? There's going to be frontier robot models and frontier industrial models.

Totally.

Because the current frontier models, you know, they're reconstituted Reddit and internet data they've scraped off the internet, or that they've been able to achieve from their users, but they don't have that kind of data that you're talking about.

Yeah.

And so it provides an opportunity for another capability.

That's right. And so in the digital AI, you just download the internet. In physical AI, there's no internet to download. If you want to teach a car how to drive, you then have to get lots of miles and pull that in and teach it. You can't go download it somewhere. So there's a whole effort of the production of the data that you then use to then teach and learn.

Coming back to CloudKitchens, what was the hard part there? I mean, you're obviously a hugely accomplished entrepreneur. You've done Multiple companies, large companies, small companies, crossed industries. You're exiting Uber, you're looking for the next idea, you have the vision of the hubs and the restaurants and the autonomy. What's the greatest challenge that you had to really overcome to make CloudKitchens work?

I mean, going— look, it's one thing Uber people think about, oh, digital and physical, pretty cool. but like child's play compared to real atoms and physics. We buy property in every major city in the world and do construction in all those cities, and then sell to restaurateurs in that market. We have software that is running that facility, but helping those restaurateurs run their business in every single one of those markets. The thing I would say is the atoms grind is real. Remember, I was doing B2C, like Uber is a consumer business. I just put it in the App Store, piece of cake. I think there is amongst the consumer guys, what they don't really get is the B2B grind is actually a really— it's an art and a science, and being the best at it is the difference between winning and losing. And so that's also a thing about Salesforce I have, like, a huge amount of admiration for, is what you guys have done in go-to-market, in reaching your customers, teaching them, persuading them, and winning together with them, and doing that well. And it comes down to the finance geeks talk about LTV to CAC and ARR and all these other metrics. the magic number or whatever. But the bottom line is that at the bottom of it has to be an inspired go-to-market process. I tell my guys on the SMB side especially is that the most important product we have is go-to-market. On the SMB, it has to be. You still have to have great products, but if you don't do go-to-market, it doesn't matter how good your product is. So I think that's also another one that's like when you go from B2C to B2B, Reality slaps you upside your head. It's a real thing.

You also very intentionally went offline. You went from a very public persona to kind of— it seemed like Travis disappeared for a while, but we all knew what you were doing. You're building this incredible company. That was a very intentional strategy that you personally took. Is that a fair way to look at it?

Yeah. We went stealth on this company. 8 years ago, I had a whole strategy, like a deck that I would teach, like, with my leadership team, and we called it Be Uniconic. And we worked our asses off to be unknown. So up until a few months ago, I had thousands of employees. Not a single one of them was listed on LinkedIn. Think about that. How fucking crazy is that? That is one of the weirdest things of all time. All of my employees' families thought they were in the CIA. But what happened was, is at the end, you know, in my end of my time at Uber, I was just like, you know, the world was getting weird. Business became politics, and you were starting to make decisions based on what the New York Times was going to say tomorrow. And I just wanted to wake up in the morning and build.

So it was a very intentional strategy.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And at some point, we put the toothpaste back in the tube, like people forgot who I was.

And then this acquisition was kind of the door open, and you're like, now I can relaunch the company.

Is that right? I just think there are a lot of things that happened all at once. The world changed, right? So instead of— when business becomes politics, in the mid-2010s, people didn't realize it, right? You think of your favorite politician, now go online and search for them, and what kind of terrible, horrible things are said about them. Sometimes it's true, but you know what I mean. Like, you can't really believe everything you read, and you know that there's going to be, like, the haters, and we know this in politics. What happened is it then got applied to business. But we all sort of digested that, came out the other side, and we're like, okay, we know that media is weird and it's not always correct. And there are now channels where you can go out there and optimistically talk about what you're building and what you're trying to do. And so the world changed too. Yeah.

You're a walking masterclass for entrepreneurship because of, you know, the diversity of your entrepreneurial experience on such a long period of time. I think, Few people have as much learned knowledge as you do on being able to create a— start and create and either sell or take a company public and run a company and also continue to innovate and transform and change.

Yeah.

Let's take that at the tippy top. What are the top 3 rules for all entrepreneurs going forward based on now what you know as the master entrepreneur? What are the 3 things that every entrepreneur must know?

That's funny. Yeah. All right, I'll answer it and then tell a funny story. But it's— look, I've been working on this a long time. Like, all of us in the entrepreneurial game, the leadership game, culture is the whole thing. People talk about culture, sometimes they don't totally understand, but it's basically how do you do what you do every day? What does it feel like to be doing it? And it, in many ways, has to be wrapped— success has to be woven into it, but there's style points for how you do it. So our 3 values are truth, trust, and passion. Truth is about truth-seeking, obviously, but we do a special kind of truth-seeking. We call it valuable unknown truths.

This is a huge shift for you from where you were a decade ago.

I don't know what you're talking about.

I mean, that would be like the last thing that you would say. I just wanted to say that because we had some pretty serious fights, like all the way down, like blood on the floor on those words.

It's all good. I can't say that I didn't learn from you, Mark. Okay, much love.

All right, truth, trust, and passion.

Truth, trust, and passion. So truth is about truth-seeking. It goes 2 ways. Valuable unknown— how can you seek valuable unknown truths? Are you good at it? Valuable unknown truths, things that are true that nobody else knows. If you get good at that, you know things other people don't know. If you know things other people don't know, you can do things other people can't do. When you do that at scale, you're bringing change, interesting change fast, okay? But there's the other side of truth, which is inward, which is who are you, self-awareness, and what am I strong at, what am I weak at, and how do I get better every day? So at Uber, we had a mindset called be yourself. We upgraded that in this one because each of these values has like little mindsets. We upgraded it, we call it be your best self.

Yeah.

So that's truth.

Yeah. And I think that I have a teacher who's no longer alive, Thich Nhat Hanh. He would say, no mud, no lotus.

I don't even know what that means. Okay. Oh, fair. Okay. It took me a second. All right. Got you. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

And that's kind of what you're saying.

Yeah. And also, yeah, so yeah, we all have strengths and weaknesses. So everybody at my company, we talk about our Ts and Bs, the top 3 things, the bottom 3 things. And it's just honest. And it's in a performance management system where everybody's doing reviews of everybody else written. Not like secret 360 bullshit, like straight up. If you can't say it to the person's face, you don't say it. This kind of thing. So that's a culture choice. I could go into the whole passion and trust thing.

Go ahead.

Yeah. Look, passion, it's about making magic. It's about winning. It's about really loving your customer and really delivering for them. Trust is really important because if you're making change really fast because you find valuable unknown truths at scale, if you can build trust while you do that, you have advocates versus adversaries, right? And I could go on. We have 8 hours of content on this, but that's basically how we do our thing. That's how we think about it. Yeah.

Yeah. So speaking to other entrepreneurs out there, this idea of aligning your core values like this you're talking about, truth, trust, and passion with now the core vision or mission of your company, this becomes critical going forward. Is that right? What else do entrepreneurs need to know so they can really manifest at every level?

Look, the way I think about truth, trust, and passion is not just like that's for me. I think that's for everybody, which is we've sort of developed what we call a handbook for innovation, which is about innovation at speed and at scale. You know, like, part of the trust thing, right, is like, don't— on the trust thing, we have this one called just change. Okay, so what does that mean, just change? It means just change, but it also means change that is just, which means don't force change upon others unless it's obviously and massively good. No Pyrrhic victories. Like, there's like, so like, I could go on, but like, the point that I guess I'm getting at is we've tried to make a universal playbook for how to innovate and do it with heart, do it well, win at the end of the day. How you apply those things to your business is like very specific to your business.

Yeah.

You know, but one time I got in an Uber Pool. This was back when I was running Uber. And, you know, somebody recognized me. I was on my way to the Uber office, and somebody recognized me in the Uber pool. And they're like, oh my God, it's Travis, the founder of Uber. He's in our Uber pool. And he's like on the phone telling his friends, he's texting. And then on my way, he's like, dude, Travis, what do you have to say for an entrepreneur? Like, what's the thing? Like, what's your advice?

Mm-hmm.

I have a tough time with the one-liners, and I was just like, you can bend reality, but don't break it. That's all I could— I just made it up. He's like, oh my God, he said bend reality and don't break it. But I don't know, I don't really have the one-liners for how do you win, you know?

Yeah. So if we hit the big 180 and we went to the Wayback Machine, and there you are, you're starting Uber, you're a different entrepreneur today than you were Then, right? You've learned so much, you've grown, you've kind of taken yourself to a whole other level. What is that one seminal jewel that if you could go back and give the pre-Uber Travis, what would it be?

Yeah, look, the—

I'm sure you've thought a lot about it.

Yeah. The company I did before Uber was a very difficult one. I mean, they're all difficult, but this was tough to just get off the ground. The first 4 years, I didn't have a salary. I ran out of money many times. I was on welfare, you know, that kind of thing. And in order to pay for the groceries next week, I had to be epically precise to just make ends meet. And I grinded it out and barely made it out the other side. So then Uber happens, and it's like so vertical, it's starting to tilt to the left. It's like up to the right. No, no, this is like bending back. I don't know. I get it doesn't make sense, but it's just a joke. Okay, I'm trying to warm them up here. Okay, so—

You're doing fine.

Yeah. So when you take that hardcore hardscrabble, gnarly, intense entrepreneur that barely could make ends meet, trying to figure out how to pay for groceries, and then apply that to the Uber problem, that's what makes Uber Uber. But you can get too close to the line. And so I had a lawyer once who's like, I defend every decision I ever made at Uber. It was good intentions, and did the right thing, I'll defend every single one of them. But I had a lawyer who said, you don't have chalk on your shoe. He would make this sort of comment. I'm like, yeah, I don't. But in order to determine that, you would need an electromagnetic scanning microscope zoomed in. You're like, you know what? I don't think he— reverse slow-mo, and you're like, yeah, he doesn't have chalk on his shoe. But the problem is, is that when you get big, There are different expectations. If you have to zoom in hard and think hard and really look at the atoms to make sure there's no chalk on the shoe, you lost the plot. Is that when you're big, people think of you differently, you have to act differently. It's not that the— even though there are one set of rules, the world works in this way, and I didn't really get it. You can get too close to the line when, you know what, just be 2 inches off the line. It's not a big deal.

Yeah.

And it was like that. It's like I was always doing the right thing, but I had to over and over and over prove it because I was too intense on that epic extra alpha, too intense in being clever, you know, that thing.

Now give us some inspiration. You know, 5 years from now, here's this incredible company, Atoms. We've got the cloud kitchens now fully underway. We've got the mining fully underway. Sounds like we've got some incredible transport kind of capabilities coming as well. You know, where are we going? What, what's the big shift that we can all expect, you know, as we kind of head towards 2030?

Well, I'll do it from— I mean, there's so many ways to answer that. I'll just do it from my own perspective, like what we're doing for a living. When you sort of go down this industrial AI path or automating industries, you know, really what's happening is we're going into a new industrial age. Whether you are a fan of the first industrial revolution or the second one, I like the second one. You got some interesting characters like Henry Ford and Carnegie and a bunch of those guys, and it's very physical and very atoms-like. like. We're entering an industrial age, and we have made the call that the best way to enter that is to go full stack with that industry, with those industries' leaders, and help them automate things in a way that makes sense for them. And so we're just going to keep going through a bunch of different industries and help them in that automation. These are physical industries. That's sort of how we roll. And I think we're going to, you know, I think Elon talks about abundance. I think there's a really good argument for that's where things are ending up. And I don't believe in no money or infinite. I don't believe in infinity. We're just going to be at a different level. But human progress is going to see a massive increase in the next 10 to 20 years that I'm quite optimistic about. Yeah.

Would everybody please thank Travis Kalanick for coming to Dreamforce? We're so thrilled to have you here. Thank you.

Thank you.