A "Healthy Soda" Super-Special: Is Diet Soda Good For You, Stevia DeMystified, Sugar Alcohols,...

What's up? It's Ben Greenfield.

I'm back and I am once again recording from the Peak Brain Institute facility in or near Los Angeles. I'm actually in a place called Culver City doing brain training, which is why you might hear background voices and brain training sounds like whirring and clicks and whistles, but that's just part of the gig. I'm making myself smarter, so I have to have making smarter sounds in the background. I'm also staying down here with my friend Tai Lopez. Quite entertaining guy.

You should go check him out on Snapchat.

Go to Snapchat and do a search for Tai Lopez. The guy's garage is full of Lamborghinis and Ferraris and he's got like this 18 room mansion here in Beverly Hills. And not that I think money is everything or prestige or the Beverly Hills lifestyle is everything, but this guy has marketing and making money and business pretty much down to a science. I've interviewed him three times on my show, so he's a guy you should check out. Very, very interesting fella. If you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com and you do a search for. Actually, I'm not even gonna have you do that. He's got a website in which he shares how he went from having 47 bucks in the bank to being wealthy beyond measure, at least by Beverly Hills standards. Perhaps not by Dubai standards, but Beverly Hills standards. The dude is freaking loaded. Go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com 67Steps. That's BenGreenfieldFitness.com67Steps. If you want to see Ty what he this place that I'm staying at. Very interesting dude. Anyways, though, this podcast today is about soda. Yes, soda, the stuff you drink. But before we dive into today's podcast on soda.

Did you see what I did there?

I was going to say dive into soda, but I should stop. I want to tell you about today's sponsors. First of all, this podcast is brought to you by something that I have actually been using quite a bit on my ankle. I competed in the Train 2 Hunt National Championships last week, the Spartan four hour race, along with another Spartan race back to back the week before. And I sprained my ankle. I've been using this thing called electrical muscle stimulation, but it's different than any other form of electrical muscle stimulation because it produces what is called a square waveform. So what I do is I surround the area of pain with the four electrodes that come with this device. It's called a Mark Pro. And it in a very therapeutic manner, recruits muscles, increases blood flow, gets rid of inflammation and essentially causes my body to heal much more quickly. I even slap some magnesium lotion on the ankle and then I put the electrodes on and I put ice over that. And that 1, 2, 3 combo nurses my body back extremely quickly.

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In this episode of.

The Ben Greenfield Fitness show in controversy around is stevia natural? It's because some vendors out there use nasty chemicals to extract the ingredient. There is one basic indisputable fact about GMOs. They were created by seed companies who sell pesticides to sell more pesticides. End of story. Caramel color that is used in zero calorie sodas has trace amounts of a nasty chemical called 4 Mei. And 4 Mei is linked in a lot of different studies to cancer.

He's an expert in human performance and nutrition, voted America's top personal trainer and one of the globe's most influential people in health and fitness. His show provides you with everything you need to optimize physical and mental performance. He is Ben Greenfield.

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Hey folks, it's Ben Greenfield. And if you are a longtime podcast listener, you may have heard me before pop open a bottle or a can of soda prior to actually.

Interviewing my guest. And although I do not have a soda in hand right now, frankly, because I'm recording in the morning and I don't drink soda that often in the morning, we are definitely going to be talking about soda. And if you happen to watch the most recent CrossFit games, because I know all of you are into the CrossFit games, you may have noticed they were brought to you by soda. That's right, a soda company was a sponsor of the 2016 Reebok CrossFit Games, which is the worldwide competition to find the fittest man or the fittest woman on earth. And that's not exactly something that you'd associate with Coke or Pepsi or Mountain Dew or my old all time favorite, Dr. Pepper. However, the name of that soda company is Zevia and my guest on today's show is named Paddy. That's right, his name is Paddy P A D D Y Patty Spence. And he's actually a 23 year veteran of the natural and organic food. He completely cut sugar out from his diet 14 years ago and then he purchased this company called Zevia, which is a Stevia Sweden soda company that's now the world's top selling zero calorie natural diet soda. So Patty lives in LA and he's done over 40 triathlons and he's trained in Brazilian jiu jitsu and wrestling and Karate and boxing. So I thought he'd be a great guy to get on the show, not only because we love super duper active people who can't seem to stop, but also because he appears to be the world's leading expert on all natural soda. So, Patty, welcome to the show, man.

Well, thank you so much, Ben. What a great intro.

Aside from the fact that I'm not drinking soda or Zevia.

Well, I can't pop mine on the air, but I am drinking a Zevia Cola right now, although it is 10 in the morning here in Los Angeles. But I start early with Zevia because of the reasons we'll talk about.

Do you actually drink coffee or do you just start your day with Zevia?

You know, I'm not a coffee guy. I do very much appreciate caffeine to get me going in the morning. So what I do is I start my day with a couple of cups of yerba mate, which for your listeners who aren't familiar, is an Amazonian herbal tea. Very high in caffeine, but it also has some of the active constituents that appear in chocolate. So some folks will tell you it's a little bit euphoric. It's definitely easier on your stomach than coffee. So I'll have a couple of cups of mate in the morning and then I switch over to Zevia.

Yeah, that's really interesting. On yerba mate, a lot of people don't know it has some of those same bioactive components in it that.

Chocolate has in it. It's got xanthines, like those caffeine like compounds that acts differently than coffee. A lot of people feel like they get like more wakefulness than yerba mate because it has. What are they? Theobromine and theophilamine are the two that you find in yerba mate. You know, yerba mate, for me, I don't. It sounds like you do pretty well with it. It's almost like too much like, unless I'm doing it right before a workout. I get. And perhaps it is from those added components I get almost jittery with yerba mate.

Well, it definitely is a strong stimulant. And I tell my wife the first cup kind of makes me human. Second cup gets me going. And then switch over to Zevia.

Yeah, it'd be interesting. Theanine. L. Theanine is a compound that takes the edge off of caffeine when you combine it with coffee or when you find it in its natural format, like with green tea. It'd be interesting to combine theanine with yerba mate and see if it takes some of the edge off yerba mate or perhaps gives you a little bit more of like a, a caffeinated high that lasts a little longer. I don't know.

Right, interesting.

I have to try that. And by the way, are you doing a bulletproof zevia? Are you blending MCT oils or coconut oils with your Zevia or do you just drink it straight up?

No. So with yerba mate, for folks who haven't tried it, it's a unique taste. I think of green tea as an acquired taste. Mate is that much more strong and thus acquired. So I put liquid stevia and generally non fat organic milk, but sometimes do use a coconut creamer in my mate. Definitely.

Gotcha, Gotcha. Cool. And what about the zevia? You mix anything in that or you just take it straight up?

I take it straight up. Interestingly, if I'm out of liquid stevia at home, I'll mix zevia with yerba mate. You know, the carbonation dissipates really quickly in a hot beverage, but it gives it that nice sweetness and a little bit of flavor. So like a lemon lime zevia or a ginger ale goes great with yerba mate.

Okay, I want to fill you in. Maybe towards the end of our interview, I'll fill you in on a few of my unique twists that I have used Zevia for in the past.

Yeah, I would love to hear that.

I have thrown some interesting things into it. But let's talk a little bit about soda in general. So I have seen on your website, because I stalked you a little bit before getting on today's show that you mentioned things like Paleo on your website, like Paleo approved or, you know, this is something that that a Paleo person could drink. I think you guys even had a presence at Paleo effects.

That's correct.

If I'm not mistaken, do you really think that caveman or our ancestors drank a soda or soda like substance? Can you argue that, that this is something ancestral?

Well, it's interesting. I mean, I think Paleo is really more of a metaphor for reducing or ideally eliminating processed foods from our diet. Right. The Paleo diet is all about eating the way we ate thousands of years ago. And what that really means is processed foods, sugar and grains. Those are three things that have only been introduced into the human diet in the last few thousand years. And one could certainly argue none of them had a positive effect on the health of people around the world. So Paleo is all about lean protein, red meat, fish, shellfish, eggs. Not sure how many eggs a hunter gatherer is consuming, but that's on the diet. Fruits, vegetables, and healthy fats like olive, coconut, and avocado oils. So the things you want to avoid, again in Paleo are grains, legumes, processed foods, a lot of potatoes, and of course, sugar. So when we think about typical soda, artificial sweeteners didn't exist. Obviously, sugar in its refined form didn't exist. So those are some of the. No, no ingredients in conventional soda. But then you get into things like caramel color, which is from corn. I mean, look, corn is clearly a product of industrialized farming and processed food technology, right? Corn was not pervasive in our diet.

Well, like modern corn. I mean, Native Americans did quite a bit of corn, but from what I understand, it was like the tiny little baby corn, not the. Not the giant ass ears of corn that we have today.

Well, exactly. And it wasn't integrated into beverages and every single thing you ate. And I think, you know, that's where we as a society have kind of gone astray from a dietary standpoint, is we're using ingredients like corn far beyond where they were ever meant to be used.

You know. You know, one thing before we dive into the issue with corn, because I did want to ask you a little bit about, you know, if you guys have any, like, GMO type of compounds in your soda. You know, returning to this concept of beverages and whether or not our ancestors would have drank soda, I actually had a really interesting discussion with a gal named Hannah, who's also known as the kombucha mama. And she mentioned during our interview that when you look at the practice of, like, hunter gatherers or you look at many ancestral populations, they didn't drink a lot of water. They actually consumed a whole bunch of different varieties of ferments and fermented beverages. You see, like mead would be one popular one, right? Like mead or honey wine that you'll find a lot in, like, Norse mythology, for example. Kombucha, of course, is another one. Kombucha or jung, which is kind of like a form of kombucha. There was another one. I don't remember if it was her that talked about it or someone else I mentioned this to or was talking about this to. In South America, they have chicha, which is like a fermented beverage made from roots or fruits. And you'll find folks in many situations not drinking water, but instead drinking ferments throughout the day or drinking things other than water. And that's what I was kind of thinking about when I asked you that question was perhaps modern forms of carbonated beverages like this are almost our version of that. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, you know, I think it's a great point. It's interesting. My daughter is in kindergarten, and one of the things I did last school year was go in and make Zevia ginger ale for her class. And it's really simple. It's carbonated water, liquid stevia, some chopped up fresh ginger, and some lemon juice. So, you know, when you think about that in a hunter gatherer environment, carbonation. Yeah. Maybe naturally occurring from a spring, you're throwing a little bit of lemon in there, the leaf of a stevia, and you're maybe throwing some fresh ginger in. That's ginger ale. So, yes, it's definitely not a stretch to say that adding indigenous fruits and spices to water to make it more palatable. I mean, God knows, back in the day, the water probably wasn't very filtered, Right? Yeah.

That's another thing, is you almost had to add things to water.

You put stuff in it to make it more palatable. No doubt. So, yeah, I think what's interesting about soda is it got its start in the late 19th century. Back then, we didn't have a chemistry lab in the way we do today to create new ingredients. So the compounds used in soda when it was first invented in the late 1800s were natural flavors. They were things like ginger and lemon and lime and orange extract.

And cocaine.

Yeah, exactly.

I guess they originally did have coca leaves in Coca Cola, Hence the title, I believe.

Yes. It's been heavily disputed by the folks in Atlanta, but there's certainly a lot of documentation, Right?

Yeah. It's interesting. Now, the other thing or another thing I wanted to really delve into was this whole idea behind the actual name of your company. And I do want to return to the GMO issue. I'm sure we'll get to that. But. But I wanted to ask you about stevia itself, because I assume zevia is an adaptation of the word stevia.

That's exactly right.

Okay. By the way, what's the Z?

The Z is zero. So we're zero calories in stevia. And just a little bit of a sidebar. My personal history with Stevia goes back 16 years. And in 2000, my wife and I went off of sugar. And I thought at the time that I was a healthy guy. And then one day I took stock of my diet and realized that through all this stuff that I was buying at Whole Foods and other natural food stores, I was getting 250 grams of sugar a day. Literally 1,000 calories a day from sugar. And here I was doing all this exercise to burn it off. Crashes of energy, spikes of energy, crash, spike, crash, spike throughout the day. We went off of sugar Cold Turkey in 2000. Been using Stevia ever since. And so that's what led me to this brand.

And when you say you got off of sugar, I assume you're saying that in the same way that most people say you didn't stop eating, for example, potatoes or carrots or things along those lines, you cut out processed sugar.

I guess what I would say is, at the outset, because I was such a hardcore addict, as was my wife, we went cold turkey. I mean, she didn't eat fruit for three weeks, cut out dairy. And that first week was really the toughest part. So what I tell people is, start with a food journal. Figure out where the hell you're getting all this sugar. That's the only way you're going to eliminate it. But for us, we went cold turkey. We were out in a cabin in upstate New York. Nearest grocery store was 12 miles away. And my body went into shock. The first three days, I had hives head to toe all over my back and legs. Just because it was detoxing from these massive amounts of.

Your fat cells were lysing.

Exactly. But once I got through that first five days, things got better. And then I gradually started to reintroduce in modest quantities, things like potatoes and dairy, et cetera. But even to this day, I control my fruit intake. If I allowed myself, I'd eat four bananas, but I don't. I eat one.

I hear you. I personally consider fruit to be nature's dessert. I will have fruit about once every one to two days, probably the equivalent of a piece of fresh, raw fruit, unless I'm in a very hot tropical climate. There's some evidence that exposure to sunlight or large amounts of vitamin D and longer days may actually increase your insulin sensitivity. It's really interesting. You actually get a lower postprandial glucose response when you're, like, in the Caribbean, you know, sipping on rum or eating a pineapple versus when you're, say, like in a northern climate covered in snow, eating fruit. So it's interesting how the human body is kind of tuned to its environment when it comes to how much sugar can get away with in addition.

Sorry to interrupt, but the other thing is we get used to a diet, right? My kids are kind of a science experiment, right? They've grown up in this household with no sugar and to your point, dessert is a banana or some cereal with milk. And their palate has adjusted such that a banana provides that sweetness they're craving without having to eat a cupcake.

It's amazing how sweet fruit can taste once you've sworn off cupcakes and other forms of processed sugar. You know, there's a term now, I don't know if you're familiar with this term, keto flu. Have you heard of this?

I'm familiar with ketosis, but I could guess what it means, but I'd love to hear about it.

Well, it's kind of similar to what you experience when you quit sugar cold turkey. It's like you get crippling headaches and lightheadedness and dizziness and irritability because you've built up such efficient sugar burning machinery that you actually have to adapt to burning fat. Your mitochondria have to shift into beta oxidation and the utilization of ketones and fatty acids. And I've actually had, because I recommend to many, many folks who I coach or consult that they lower their carbohydrate intake or they lower their sugar intake. And there are little things that we'll do to really ensure that they don't have that. What's called the low carb flu or the keto flu, like you amp up mineral and electrolyte intake. That's one biggie, because your blood pressure drops as you dump all that glycogen and carbohydrates. Another one is we'll get lots of medium chain triglycerides, like lots of coconut oil or coconut fats into the diet because those can preferentially, they kind of skip digestion and they get converted into ketone based fuels pretty readily. And then another big one, of course, similar to how glycogen stores electrolytes, it also stores water. And so you can get more dehydrated. And so I'll amp up water intake. And there's all sorts of little, little tricks you can use if you cut sugar out. But that's interesting that you just went, you went full on cold turkey.

Yeah. And what's interesting is hearing your expert advice that you provide your clients. I didn't have a Ben Greenfield helping me out, unfortunately, but what I did have is just my body telling me what it wanted. And I'll tell you the thing that helped me. I'm a meat eater and an unapologetic meat eater. It was massive amounts of protein was the only thing that would kill my sugar cravings. And I think to some extent that dovetails with some of the medical advice. Advice you would give to people.

Yeah, kind of. The only issue with that, not to be contrarian, is that, you know, a big reason for that is because of gluconeogenesis. You get a lot of the protein converted into glucose, which is what you're trying to get away from. You know, and that's, I think, again, not, not to, not to be too, too divisive here, but it's a reason that. Or a mistake a lot of people make, right. They, they eat a bunch of protein instead. It's hard in the kidneys, they produce a bunch of ammonia. They still get these bumps and in insulin and glucose because the protein is just getting converted into sugar. It's almost just like a longer wait or a longer biochemical method to get sugar spiked into the bloodstream.

That's fascinating. Well, yeah, it was a short term fix for me. And you can't eat pounds of meat for very long. But it kind of kept me sane for that first week.

Kept you from being curled up in a fetal position, sucking your thumb in this cabin in the wilderness.

Well, I think I was doing that anyway, but from crying while I did that. Yeah.

So Stevia, obviously, Z. Stevia is named after stevia. And you said that you quit sugar and you found stevia. But I'd like to talk a little bit about stevia because.

People have lots of questions about it. There are different forms of it. I notice when I look at the label of your soda, for example, you have Reba Reb A listed there. I'm curious what Reb A is and what your thoughts are on the appropriateness of stevia as far as the research behind it and the. The health of stevia. Granted, I know people are going to be screaming this through the podcast, so I'll point out the painfully obvious fact that you might be biased because you have a company named after, named after Stevia. But still, I'm curious to hear your take on this and especially curious what Reb A is.

Yeah, so for folks who don't know, stevia is a plant in the sunflower family, native to Latin America, but grows in virtually any hot climate around the world. And what's amazing about this plant is the leaves are two to 300 times as sweet as sugar, with no caloric intake associated with them and no associated spike in blood sugar. So it really is an amazing, what we would call high intensity sweetener that doesn't have calories. Within the stevia leaf, there are a number of different sweetening compounds which we would call stevia glycosides. And the history of stevia was used for centuries in Latin America. I believe it was 1970 or 71, it was approved for use as a sweetener in Japan. So it's got a decades long usage history in Japan, centuries in Latin America. It was only in 2008 that in the US the FDA said, hey, you can now market this as a sweetener. So back in 2000, when my wife and I consumed stevia, we found it in the health food store in the supplement section because it was a dietary supplement starting in 08, FDA said, Yep, you can use it as a sweetener. And, and initially the companies creating stevia as a sweetener, FDA approved Reba, which was one of the sweetening compounds, the stevia glycosides.

And what does REBA mean? What does REB stand? Is REB short for something or is that the actual form?

Reb is, I believe, rebaudioside A. So that's the scientific name for that sweetening compound. There's a Rebb B, there's a Reb D, Reb M, et cetera. So there are about a dozen sweetening compounds within the leaf. And like any natural botanical ingredient, there are different characteristics to each of those sweetening compounds. Some have a little more of a licorice Y taste, some have a more pure, clean sweetness. And so initially, imagine we were kind of in the Ms. DOS of Stevia back in 2008. People were just starting to work with it. We didn't know exactly how to use it. And the initial thinking was we can get the purest sweetness from Reb A and refining Reb A to the highest concentration. So back in 2010 in Zevia, we used an 80% reb a stevia with the other 20% being other stevia glycosides. We then continue to improve. The purity of that went to a RAB a 95, 97%, 99%, which is what we use in Zevia today. But what's happening actually in stevia is now that the food science folks have caught up with the ingredient, we're starting to see novel uses of different sweetening compounds or stevia glycosides. And so actually, Zevia just released a line of sparkling flavored waters and a line of energy drinks. Both of those product lines use only stevia. And we're doing that through a blend of different stevia glycosides.

Now, when you say glycoside, that is the actual compound that tastes sweet on the tongue, is that correct?

That Is correct.

Okay. So when you're tasting stevia and it tastes sweet, it's not an actual calorie that you're tasting, because it is. Correct me if I'm mistaken, there are no calories in stevia. Is that correct?

That is correct.

Okay, so those glycosides, those actually react with the same sweet sensors on your taste buds, on your tongue, as, say, sugar?

That is exactly right.

Now, some people think stevia tastes bitter. Why is that?

Well, I think everyone's palate is different, and it's really amazing. You get 1,000 people and have them taste the same thing, especially if it has a number of different flavor notes. Some people will pick up notes that others don't. It's the same. We look at a shade of red, ask 100 people, and they'll have different descriptions of that shade of red. And some people will think it's green. Similarly, our palates are all different. And so some people do taste a little bitterness. What's occurred, though, as I mentioned, back in 2008 or 2010, Stevia was Ms. DOS. Maybe we're Windows 95 now, but we're still very, very early in the development of this ingredient from a taste standpoint. And anyone that's been drinking Zevia for a number of years will tell you our product tastes distinctly different and vastly better than it did five years ago. Because we've gotten better not only at using a more refined and pure stevia, but also at how to mask any bitter aftertaste through the use of natural flavors and through the use of essences, lemon flavor, lime, et cetera, et cetera.

How do you get the actual rebidiacide a or the reb A that you mentioned out of the stevia plant? Like, how do you go from a plant to this reb A stuff that goes into the soda?

So there are a couple of different things around that. The first, of course, is before the plant is out of the ground, you want to breed a plant that has the highest reb A content that you can.

And that's not through genetic modification or anything. It's just through simple breeding. You're breeding a high reb a plant at that point, then you take those plants, you cut them out of the ground, and it's the leaf that you want. So the first thing you do is you de stem them. You take all the stems off, and you've just got the stevia leaves. You then dry those and you crush them into a powder, which you then put into a solution like a tea, and through an extraction process. Using non GMO extraction technology, we're able to extract the reve spray dry it and create a powder from that, which is in our case, 99% reb a rebodioside, a vestibule glycoside, the sweetening compound in that powder. And so it's, as I mentioned at the outset, 200 to 300 times as sweet as sugar with no calories and no impact on blood sugar.

Okay, let's dive even deeper. So once it winds up in your digestive tract, is this.

I gotta get that.

Or we'll just say Reb A from here on out that gets metabolized into. What do you know?

I don't know. I guess what I would tell you is going back on a technical fine point, it's probably not accurate to say it has zero calories. If you consumed a kilo of stevia, which no human being could consume, it would have more than a zero caloric contribution. But if you think of it as two to three hundred times the sweet as sugar. Right. A teaspoon of sugar has, I believe.

Four calories, or I'm sorry, a gram of sugar has four calories.

One gram is four calories.

Right. A gram of sugar has four calories. A gram of stevia might have a couple of calories, but a gram of Stevia is like 200 grams of sugar. So you would never consume a gram of stevia. So it has some caloric contribution, but you're ingesting it in such minute quantities that there's. It's like eating a couple of crystals of sugar. Yes, there is a caloric contribution and it's negligible and thus not measurable.

I gotcha. And by the way, I just looked this up and it looks like it gets metabolized in the reb egg gets metabolized into something called stevioside that gets broken down into glucose and steviol. And it looks like that glucose actually does not get absorbed into the bloodstream. It gets metabolized by the bacteria in the colon, which is really interesting. I actually didn't know that. So. So basically what I'd like to see actually is the bacterial profile, the colonic bacterial profile of someone who had a lot of stevia in their diet versus someone who didn't. Because it appears that it just gets eaten up by the bacteria in the colon and then the stevial isn't digested. I suppose that's like a sugar alcohol and it gets excreted. So that's interesting. How does the stevia. How does this Reb A that you guys use in Zevia differ from say like, because I know Coca Cola, for example, uses this one called Truvia. And Pepsi has their own brand, I think it's called Purvia. How do you guys differ from what Coke and Pepsi are doing?

Well, so the most important way that we differ is in the processing of the ingredient. Like any natural ingredient, you put enough technology into it, you can render it unnatural. And so to the extent that there has been controversy around is stevia natural? It's because some vendors out there use nasty chemicals to extract the ingredient. What I tell people is we use a non GMO project verified stevia and we don't use methanol, for example, in the extraction of that stevia. Some folks use methanol and other nasty chemicals. And so same with sugar, right? You can use ingredients that render sugar arguably non natural, but you don't have to. Right? You can eat a piece of sugar cane. And similarly, we have a non GMO project verified stevia, which is different than Truvia, different than Purvia. And we were the first and the only brand in the zero calorie soda space to use a, to have a completely non GMO project verified formula.

If someone is consuming a diet product or a soda or something like that that has stevia as its base, are there things that they can look for as a red flag? I mean, aside from it sounds like you've mentioned that truvia and purvia, which would be respectively the Coke and Pepsi forms of stevia, those are extracted using some of these harsher solvents that you've described. Are there other red flags that folks should look for aside from those names Truvia and Purvia?

Well, I generally just look at is a product non GMO project verified. Because to me that or organic are the gold standard for meaning it's processed in a way that I'm comfortable with, that's not using harsh chemicals. And so, so we were the first soda to become non GMO project verified. And to me, I think that's a really important stamp of approval for consumers.

Okay, gotcha. So you look for non GMO verified. And when you guys are non GMO verified, I noticed that you do have things like natural flavors listed on the soda and you've got some other ingredients in there. What goes into that non GMO certification process?

Well, non GMO project verification is quite amazing. And let me take just a moment to explain why I think non GMO is important because there's a lot of rhetoric on both sides of the argument. Do we want to feed the world? Is the kind of what the pro GMO folks would say and non GMO folks would say, well, we don't know if GMOs are safe in the long term. I would say throw away all those arguments. Don't even think about that stuff. There is one basic, indisputable fact about GMOs. They were created by seed companies who sell pesticides to sell more pesticides. End of story. Dupont, Monsanto, they want to sell pesticides. And so they created seeds that were resistant to herbicides and pesticides so you could spray throughout the year. And what we're now seeing is rainfall in the Midwest. The predominant rainfall that occurs has traces of nasty toxic chemicals like Roundup, a pesticide and herbicide that's used in those GMO crops. So enough ranting about GMOs. What we use in our product is non GMO, all non GMO ingredients. And that means not only are they grown and without the use of genetic modification, but they also are processed without genetically modified ingredients. So a lot of times you'll see fermented products, and you can use GMO enzymes to be the catalyst for that fermentation. We don't do that. Non GMO project does not approve that. So it goes way beyond just the seeds that are in the ground to the whole method of processing and creating a product and not using GMOs throughout that supply chain.

Okay, so this would include, like, what you. You were talking about, what you would use to extract the actual sweetness. These are biocides from the. From the stevia plant. You would ensure that, like, the solvents you were using also were not derived from genetically modified ingredients. Ingredients.

That's exactly right.

Now, what about erythritol, this sugar, alcohol? I've seen that in quite a few diet compounds, from bars to sodas. Am I correct that you guys have erythritol in Zevia?

We do. We have a non GMO project verified erythritol. And I should note, we have that in our soda. We do not have it in our sparkling waters, and we don't have it in our energy drinks. And not ready to announce anything today. But I would tell you, if you look at the path we're on, it's a path of increasing purity in our products. So back in 2010, we had 12 or 14 grams of erythritol in a can of Zevia. Then we went to seven. Now we have three and a half. And the new products We've unveiled this summer have zero. So you can see where we're going in general as a company, which is fewer ingredients.

Pretty soon you'll just open the can. It's just going to be air, so.

It'S going to be water, stevia and flavor like air.

A shot of oxygen. So erythritol, why do you have that and why are you going towards the root of getting rid of it?

Well, so as I mentioned, when you look at the development of stevia, initially we were focused on this one sweetening compound, REB A. And it is what a food scientist might call a spiky sweetness, in that it doesn't have any caloric value and it's not teaspoons of stuff on your palate. It's a tiny, tiny trace amount. So it hits your palate with a spiky sweetness and then tails off. Erythritol is not as sweet as sugar. It's 70 to 90% as sweet as sugar. And so in a can of soda, when you have four or three and a half, that adds what we might call mouthfeel. It's actual bulk. It's 4 grams of stuff on your palate. And so that's got. Because it's less sweet than sugar, it's got kind of a more rounded sweetener. It doesn't hit your palate as aggressively and intensely as stevia does, but it works in a complementary sense in that it's a slow onset and the stevia kicks in and then erythritol kind of ends up on the finish on your palate. So as we get to a more and more rounded stevia taste by using multiple sweetening compounds, the need for something like erythritol starts to go away. Because you can achieve that same effect by using different steviol glycosides or sweetening compounds, all from the stevia leaf.

Okay, gotcha. So erythritol, in terms of it being a sugar alcohol, is there any caloric effect of something like erythritol or is that completely non absorbed calorically?

It's not absorbed calorically. So the erythritol itself does have a slight carb contribution, but your body does not absorb those carbs and thus there's no caloric contribution.

Okay. And you choose that instead of something like, say, let's say xylitol is another popular one that you'll find. Why?

Well, xylitol is a cousin of erythritol in that it's a sugar. Alcohol also but it's really a different compound and it's not an ingredient that you can consume in large quantities. So xylitol can give you stomach upset and digestive issues?

Yeah. Xylitol makes you fart.

Yeah, that's what people say.

Even xylitol gum. A lot of people do these new xylitol gums. I actually didn't realize this. I just started down a search and I think I found one called Simply Gum that is a stevia only flavored gum. But I would find when I chomp on gum all day long, I'd start to fart a lot. And I didn't realize that there was so much xylitol in this gum that I've been chewing that it was actually messing with my digestive tract because of the vast amounts of sugar alcohol that I was consuming. And, and a lot of people have. Are you familiar with sibo? Small intestine bacterial overgrowth?

Yes, I certainly am.

A lot of people who have sibo, they can't deal well with these things like maltitol and sorbitol and lactitol and xylitol. But erythritol, from what I understand, it's one of the few that does not actually cause this type of tummy rumbling, at least in moderate doses.

Well, that's exactly right. And I think again, it's a side. The amounts of erythritol that you would need to consume for digestive distress are far, far above what we use in Zevia. And so I'll tell you, I drink 10 cans of Zevia a day, so that's maybe 40 grams of erythritol nowadays. Back in 2010, that was 120 grams of erythritol. I never had any issues, but as I said, we are on a path of continuous reduction. And. And at some point in the future, Zevia is going to be a stevia only soda line.

Yeah. And my kids both do about a can a day and I personally do one or two cans a day and I don't have any issues with gas or anything like that from the erythritol in there. Have you tried that simply gum stuff, by the way?

I'm not a gum chewer so much, so I'm a bad candidate for that. But I think it's a great concept.

Oh, it's my new favorite. They've got different flavors like ginger and fennel and coffee and maple, but it's all stevia flavored. It's really interesting.

If you're listening and you're interested in this, I'll put a link in the show notes. Just go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Paddy that's BenGreenfieldFitness.com p a d D Y and I'll link to some of the flavors of stevia that I like or of Zevia and also this gum that I like. Another ingredient that I wanted to ask you about, Patty, is monk fruit. I noticed that you guys have had monk fruit in some of your flavors. Why monk fruit? And how is that not falling into like a category of a caloric based sweetener or a fructose based sweetener?

So monk fruit is quite similar to stevia in that it is a botanical ingredient that is 200 to 300 times as sweet as sugar without any calories and without any impact on blood sugar. Stevia is a leafy plant. Monkford is actually a gourd that looks a little bit like a guava maybe, and it's grown in the foothills of in the hills in China and in parts of Thailand. And again, it works in a complementary sense with Reb A. And so as I mentioned, you know, erythritol provides a little bit of mouth feel and a more rounded sweetness. Monk fruit provides a little bit of extra sweetness in our sodas without any added bitterness. And so, so monk fruit, stevia and erythritol work nicely in conjunction. But again, in our sparkling water line and our energy line, we're only using stevia, and I think that's the future.

Okay, so are there actual calories in a monk fruit extract or is it kind of like stevia where it's just a sweet taste?

It's just like stevia, where it's a sweet taste. And I guess if you consumed 100 gourds of monk fruit, which no one could ever tolerate, there might be a couple of calories in that quantity. But yes, it has no caloric contribution to our problem.

Do you know if there are other nutritional benefits of something like monk fruit?

You know, I'm always very cautious about talking about diagnosing, treating or curing any diseases. And so what I would tell you though is monk fruit, also known as luo Han guo, has been used in Chinese medicine for centuries. And yeah, it's a tonic that is often used for a variety of things. And I'm sure there are people who will tell you it'll cure cancer.

But no, it has definitely been used in traditional Chinese medicine. And I would encourage folks to go research monk fruit or luo Han Guo, to find out some of the traditional uses of that ingredient in Chinese medicine.

Extremely, extremely low on the glycemic index. I know that it's almost got like a negative glycemic index score in terms of glycemic index. Most folks listening know this. You know, the potential something to actually spike your blood sugars. Monk fruit, although it's called a fruit, from what I understand, it just has so many of these glycosides in it, and that's what's responsible for the sweetness, not actually high amounts of fructose. That it is one of those few fruits out there that is super sweet, but that won't actually spike your blood sugar.

That's exactly right.

Cool. And it's a beautiful fruit. I'll try and put a picture of it in the show notes for those of you listening in. All right, so we've covered sugar, alcohols, we've covered stevia, We've covered the monk fruit. Now, I want to get into another question that I get quite a bit about soda and that I've even wondered myself, you know, when slamming one or two cans of Zevia during the day. And that's the whole issue with, like, teeth and bones and acidity of soda. Talk to me about concerns, you know, in terms of, like, the acids in soda and how you get past those type of concerns, or if that is a concern.

Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting, stevia as an ingredient is tooth friendly. And if you were to use only stevia, you could probably get a dental claim on your package saying, this supports tooth health. And you talk to any dentist and they love stevia for that reason.

And the reason, the specific reason is stevia does not promote creating an environment in the mouth that promotes the growth of plaque and bacteria. So it is tooth friendly. As you noted, soda in general, and Zevia specifically is an acidic product. The acidity or the ph of the product is one of the ways that we keep the product preservative free. So having carbonation in a can and having a somewhat acidic product allow us to not use preservatives and still have that stay fresh. So the acidity of Zevia means that, yes, you can't say that's helping your teeth, but all the dentists I've spoken to tell me, you know, there's a really easy way to deal with acidity in your mouth. It's called rinsing your mouth with a glass of water. Right. And at the end of the day, really, that's what we're talking About. And it's interesting. There are actually we have several hundred, if not now, a thousand dental hygienists on our professionals mailing list. And they are starting to provide Zevia as samples to their patients because it is a tooth friendly alternative to conventional sodas, which are really nasty to your teeth. I mean, we've all done that great experiment where you take your tooth and drop it in a glass of classic Coke and it's gone in a day because that tooth is getting completely dissolved by sugar.

So you guys actually don't use phosphoric acid.

That's exactly right. We don't. And what's amazing, and a lot of folks don't know this, there are 23 million Americans with kidney disease. And one of the ways, whether you're on dialysis or you have an earlier stage of kidney disease, one of the best and only ways to manage that disease is through your diet. And one of the things you need to do is eat a diet that's very low in.

Potassium and phosphorus. Zevia doesn't use phosphoric acid. If you have kidney disease, you should never drink regular cola, but you can drink Zevia cola. So that's a big market for us. And we have several thousand and kidney patients and renal dietitians who we work with to help spread the word in that community.

Now, I know that phosphoric acid is typically used as this acidifying agent to give soda or to give cola, like that. Nice. That tangy kind of flavor that you get from it. Do you guys just not have that flavor in Zevia or do you use something else to replicate that flavor that acidity would normally give?

Well, so phosphoric acid, in addition to having challenges for kidney patients, also has been shown to decrease bone density and thus be linked to osteoporosis. And so we use tartaric acid, which does not have a negative effect on bone density. And so it does give our cola that little bit of bite that folks are looking for without some of the negative effects of phosphoric acid.

Okay, so you use tartaric acid instead of phosphoric acid.

That's exactly right.

And there's no issues in terms of, like the dental industry with tartaric acid?

No, no. I mean, they love.

Okay, wow, that's really interesting. So it's actually good for your teeth. I like it.

Right. So I guess, you know, by the.

Way, less those of you listening in should be raising a big eyebrow right now. I have no financial affiliation with Zevia. I just Think this is fascinating to talk about how we could make a soda healthier.

So go ahead, go talk to four experts, talk to Ben on the nutritional side, talk to your fitness trainer, talk to your dental hygienist, and talk to your kidney doctor, and they'll all tell you, this is a product that meets the medical needs of Americans.

Interesting. Okay, well, I don't know. Meets the medical needs of Americans. That's getting pretty darn close to a medical claim. It's not gonna cure cancer, right?

No, it is definitely not.

Okay, so I have another question, and this is another eyebrow that I always raise when I see this on the label of a product, and that is this term natural flavors, which I see on the ZEV Alert label. The reason I ask that is because I've talked about this on the podcast episode before. But, I mean, natural flavors can cover a whole host of nasties. And there's even this beaver butt that they use as flavoring in natural flavors. It's called castoreum, and it actually comes from the castor sacs within the anus of a beaver. And you'll find it in, like, vanilla flavorings and strawberry flavorings and raspberry flavorings.

Do you guys know where the source of your natural flavors actually is coming from?

Yeah, and the reason, Ben, that we put natural flavors on there is we have to have something that's proprietary. I mean, I gave your listeners the recipe to ginger ale. Right? It's carbonated water, stevia, ginger, and lemon. But we don't want, obviously, everyone to just go out and knock off our product. And so natural flavors allows us to have some secret sauce. What I can tell you is 100% of our product, including everything in the natural flavors, is certified vegan. Right. So.

The vegan certification agency has no interest in beaver's anal glands being in any product.

I was going to say, is a beaver's anus vegan?

Yeah. So no, we have no animal ingredients of any kind, including that one. We also don't use msg. And when folks reach out to us and they say, hey, I'm allergic to X, Y, or Z, we can tell them, hey, you know, there's no allergens in there. I mean, we get people who say, well, I'm allergic to grapefruit extract. Is that in any of your flavors? And we can tell them, no, it isn't, or, yes, it is, but we don't reveal every one of those flavors because there's still some secret sauce. But what I can tell you is what's not in Them no animal ingredients, no MSG and no ingredients that aren't non GMO project verified.

Okay, what about bpa? And I know I'm throwing all these curveballs at you, hopefully you're like the guy in the Matrix, right? Leaning back, dodging all the bullets. I'm trying not to throw you softballs here, but bpa, that is something I get concerned about with cans especially, I do know, and I've purchased before at the grocery store, Zevia, in glass bottles, which, which I know are completely safe. And I always go out of my way when I'm shopping, for example, for water, I always pay that little bit extra. Especially when I'm traveling and I'm buying water. I always go for the glass bottled spring water because it's just, you know, it's more structured, it's got less issues with, with plastics leaching, et cetera. What do you do about the BPA in cans?

Yeah, you know, it's a, it's a real challenge. And I would tell you there are no great solutions in packaging. I love glass. Glass. Unfortunately, Zevia is almost twice the price in glass as it is in cans. And it's not because of us. Glass is extremely expensive to transport, unfortunately. Although it's infinitely recyclable, it has a significantly lower recycling rate than aluminum and it really has a gigantic carbon footprint, which is really unfortunate. So that's glass. We know all the evils of plastic, starting with the fact that it's a petroleum based product and most plastics have bpa, etc, etc, etc, and it's not very recyclable. You know, I guess we see aluminum and the aluminum can as kind of the lesser evil from a packaging standpoint. It's got a very low carbon footprint because it's very inexpensive to fill and transport. There are no safety issues like you have associated with glass. But to your point, aluminum cans, the liquid never touches aluminum. It's important for folks to know that, you know, you hear about, don't cook with aluminum, et cetera, et cetera. Well, liquid can't touch aluminum in a soda can and it doesn't. So these cans, every aluminum can in North America is lined with bpa. Now, bpa, as I think you inferred from your comment about plastic bottles of water, BPA leaches based on heat. Right. And so what kind of products are filled hot? Well, things like soup. Right. So historically, soup was one of the highest BPA concerns because when you fill soup in a manufacturing plant, you're filling it, not boiling, but almost into a can that was lined with BPA iced tea, often filled hot on the product on the production line, and thus iced tea in a can. BPA soda is filled at 34 degrees, as close to freezing as you can get it. So it is freezing cold and there is BPA in that lining. What I would tell you, Ben, is that we're always experimenting with new compounds. And I think in the next couple of years we're going to see the first aluminum cans that are BPA free in North America. I think as some there's no companies already using BPA free cans, not aluminum cans. There is no aluminum can that is currently in use in North America that is BPA free.

Okay, so what about like, for example, I purchase native forest coconut milk as my chosen brand of coconut milk because it says BPA free on the label. Is that because it is a different type of actual can that they use that doesn't have aluminum in it?

It's probably a steel can. I think some of the coconut milks are in steel cans. And so. So actually Eden Foods in the soup category was the first company to ever use a BPA free steel can for the reasons I mentioned. When you're filling soup, it is blazing hot. When you fill it on the production line, you don't want BPA in that can. And so they pioneered the BPA free steel can. Steel cans are not used in soda or very many beverages. Coconut milk may be an exception, but an aluminum can in North America has BPA and a store.

Okay, got it. So how come you guys don't just use a steel can?

Steel cans are very expensive, very heavy, and we don't want to sell $2 cans of soda.

Okay, gotcha. Yeah, you'd burn up a lot of jet fuel too, probably shipping that stuff around. So don't let your zevia get warm. Basically, don't let it sit in the sun. If you're going to go shopping, you wouldn't want it like in your car, for example, if you wanted to completely get rid of any issues as far as BPA is concerned.

That's correct. And frankly, I would say not that.

Hot soda tastes good anyways.

Well, in general, yeah. I mean, you shouldn't be keeping foods and beverages in your car. And folks who live in Phoenix will tell us don't keep anything in your car. Right. And in 20 years when it's 100 degrees everywhere all the time, we'll probably be even more strict with that.

Okay, so a couple other things that I wanted to ask you. Really one other thing before we delve into a couple of quick fun topics. Caramel color. Did you say that you do or you do not use caramel color? Like I mentioned, I don't have a can sitting in front of me right now, so I don't remember on this one.

None of our products use color. And so we're not using artificial colors in the grape or the orange. And we're not using caramel color in our colas or our Dr. Xevia. And there's a very specific reason for that, which is the caramel color that is used in zero calorie sodas has trace amounts of a nasty chemical called 4 Mei. And 4 Mei is linked in a lot of different studies to cancer. The state of California has it on the Prop 65 list of toxic chemicals. And when we started hearing from consumers about their concerns about caramel color, we kind of stepped back and we said, well, wait a second, is this a flavor or a color? It's a color. What are we thinking? Why do we need this in our product? We can make a better product by getting rid of caramel color. So we were the first major soda brand to go clear beer.

Interesting. So that's why when I pour out your Coke, it's actually a little bit weird. You pour out your Coke can. Because I honestly don't drink from the can. I pour it into a glass cup full of ice. That's my preferred consumption method. Occasionally I want that. I guess there's almost something. It's like a comfort food, right? When you take a can of soda and open it and drink so straight from the can, there's something that reminds me of like baseball games and drinking Coca Cola when I was a kid. But usually I pour it into a glass over ice and it's kind of weird because it's. For example, your Coke flavor tastes just like Coke and your Dr. Pepper flavor tastes just like Dr. Pepper, but it comes out clear.

Well, that's exactly right. And you know, when you start to look at the ingredients in a conventional soda, even a zero calorie soda, you know, you've got artificial sweeteners, you've got GMOs, you've got glutes, you've got animal ingredients, potentially, as you noted, in the natural flavors. And then you've got a color that some folks will tell you is linked to cancer. What are you thinking? So we just said we want to make the cleanest product that we can. Not just for the consumers of Bazevia, but for our own friends and family. Why would you want to consume Something that might make you sick.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. So no caramel color. All right, so a few other things here, Patty. First of all, I have some things that I mix into Zevia. For example, I like your ginger root beer flavor. That's actually my wife's favorite flavor. We typically do ginger root beer or cream soda. Those are our two flavors of choice here at the Greenfield household. I will take the ginger root beer, and I'll take a few drops of dark chocolate stevia and put them into the ginger root beer to make it chocolate flavored ginger root beer. My kids get the vanilla coconut ice cream from the grocery store, like a coconut bliss. They make root beer floats using the ginger root beer Zevia, and they pour that over the coconut ice cream and make root beer floats. And then finally, I will take the cream soda and I actually pour that over ice like I mentioned. And this is an occasional cocktail for me in the evenings. I. I'm typically prone to use kombucha because the glucuronic and the gluconic acid in that, it's actually a good liver cleanse. And so I'll take a kombucha and do a shot of vodka and a squeeze of lemon and a pinch of sea salt. Sometimes, though, I will do that same recipe, but I will use the Zevia flavored cream soda instead and actually make a vodka cocktail with the cream soda and a bit of lemon and sea salt. And I actually think it tastes fantastic and it gives you that. That fizzy flavor. And those are some of the things that I'll do with Zevia. I'm curious if you have any little mixes, like personal mixes, personal favorites you've found along the way that you use in addition to just drinking plain old Zevia?

Well, definitely plain old Zevia. I'm a big fan, and so favorite flavor is just FYI, I love our strawberry. Grape is a big favorite in our household. Ginger ale and cola. So one of the things that we like to do is actually we will make.

Popsicles with Zevia. And so in particular, the strawberry and the cream soda make great popsicles. So we just pour that. Sometimes we'll just do it in ice cubes. Sometimes we'll do it in actual popsicle trays that have the little stick in the mold and you just freeze it, and that's fantastic. We'll also do kind of what our kids call banana swirl, where we just take frozen banana, put it into the blender, sometimes a little bit of cinnamon and then a little bit of cream soda, which does have those nice vanilla notes and that's kind of a, it's a puddingy frozen dessert that is, you know, ridiculously better for you and guilt free.

Okay, one more time for those listeners who are out swimming or biking or running. What's that recipe? One more time.

So banana swirl, a couple frozen bananas, pinch of cinnamon, and some cream soda which has a slight vanilla flavor. Zevia cream soda, throw that in the blender, ideally like a Vitamix or a pretty powerful blender because those bananas can be pretty hard. But that's going to go into a nice kind of almost custardy frozen dessert that has a little bit of spice from the cinnamon, nice vanilla notes and banana and is super guilt free.

Okay, I just wrote that all down. I'm literally going to be making that tonight for my kids.

Oh, it is awesome.

And I'll put that in the show notes, too. For those of you listening in, go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Paddy P A D D Y Not only am I going to include Patty's amazing recipe for Zevia custard dessert and I might Skype you afterwards to get your exact measurements, Patty, if that's cool. So we can put them in the show notes for people. But I'll also link, of course, to Zevia soda. I'll put a link to that gum that I mentioned, Patty's cool little bio and everything else that we discussed on today's show. Patty, can I hold you to it to send me that recipe?

Absolutely.

You rock. All right, folks, you heard it. You can find it at BenGreenfulFitness.com Patty and Patty, thank you for coming on the show today and sharing all this stuff with us and for making some fantastic soda that has saved my butt in terms of allowing my kids to experience the great American experience that is soda without actually destroying their teeth or their kidneys.

Well, thank you so much, Ben. Great questions. And yes, soda doesn't have to be a four letter word anymore.

That's right. All right, folks. Well, this is Ben Greenfield and Patty Spence signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have a healthy week.

You've been listening to the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.

Go to BenGreenfield Fitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness and performance advice.

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