Ben's Current Fasting Protocol And The Power Of Combining Fasting With Spiritual Disciplines

Temptation is about immediate gratification right now, where spiritual disciplines are about delayed gratification and a little bit after you make the right decision. And that's how temptation gets you, is it? It wants you to experience that immediate gratification, whether it's sleeping in or pornography. Pornography is huge for men and women now, but it's all connected. It's all connected. A life that's not spiritual, spiritually disciplined, is falling apart in many different.

Well, folks, I met my guest on today's podcast, or at least became interested in him when I was listening. As I'm prone to do to a sermon in the morning. I like to, for the very first 60 to 90 minutes of the day, listen to my Bible in one year podcast and then move on and listen to a sermon. Because I believe that you should feed yourself spiritually before you move on to a focus on any of the physical work or the business work, etc. And so as I'm tooling around the house, you know, doing foam rolling and making coffee and getting ready for the day or whatever, it's always the Bible and then some kind of a sermon that feeds my soul. And I, I, I have multiple sermon podcasts that I listen to. I think I might have heard today's guest, whose name is Shane Idleman on. I think it might have been Calvary Unplugged, maybe one of the daily sermon podcast series. You know, there's so many of them, I forget the names. But anyways, he was talking about fasting and feasting also he actually has a book called Feasting and Fasting. What works, what doesn't and why. And it was really interesting to hear a guy who prioritizes spiritual health also talk in a pretty educated way about physical health and mental health and biology and lifespan and health span. It really piqued my interest because, let's face it, not to, not to stereotype or paint with too broad a brush, but often, you know, you have like the stereotypical, you know, cigar smoking, whiskey chugging Reformed Baptist pastor or maybe the evangelical preacher who puts a lot in their congregations but doesn't take care of their own body or their own temple or even know how to do so. And this guy seemed to be cut from a different cloth. So I started to look into him and again, his name's Shane Idleman and he's got about a dozen different books from the feasting and fasting one that I mentioned to 40 days to reset your life for physical and spiritual renewal to a book on addiction, overcoming the cravings that Overcome you to all the way down to books like if my people in case of national emergency read this, another book about connecting to God called Desperate for God. And so, you know, I dove in, I read a few of his books, I listened to some more podcasts by him and it's really inspiring and I'll allow him to share his story. But he actually had a promising career as a corporate executive and basically left all of that behind to follow a different dream and that God placed in his heart. And now he's the founder and the lead pastor of a church called the Westside Christian Fellowship in Southern California, which is close to Los Angeles. And his collection of books on Amazon, which I'll link to in the show notes@bengreenfieldlife.com idleman it's idle m A N are just fantastic to download and have on your Kindle or have as a physical copy at your house because they're just chock full of practical and pretty easy to read wisdom. So you don't have to be like a theological wizard to get through Shane's books, but they also have this focus on health, which of course, as a guy in the health industry, I really appreciate. So, Shane, I'm really stoked. I've been working for a while to get you on the show and I'm glad we finally made it happen here.

Yeah, it's been a while that we've been planning this and I know, I think you made the connection even with Victor Marks when I was on his podcast and that might maybe prompted you to, to look into it further. But yeah, I've got a background, you know, and I think God uses different giftings for his purposes, of course. And so my background was with health and fitness. Never, you know, went to school for it. I studied a lot of the National Academy of Sports Medicine and, and just that was my lifestyle in my 20s. And what you alluded to was I worked my way up the corporate ladder and started working for 24 Hour Fitness and became a district manager over multiple fitness locations. And that's when I was overseeing, you know, personal training department accelerated results supplementation. And we had certain numbers we had to hit each month, you know, board allocated budgets and, and I was just, it was, it was, I was like the full steam ahead. I was even called the Steamroller. But with that came, but with that came anger, arrogance and addiction. And it really took me out. It hurt a lot of things in my life with alcoholism and addiction and arrogance and angry. I was taking steroids, you know, before I got into that, I think.

Yeah. By the way, to briefly interrupt you on the steroids piece. Oh, absolutely. Again, the shownotes@bengreenfieldlife.com idleman I'm gonna include a picture because you sent me a photo of you. I mean, you were jacked. I don't know how much you weighed there. Maybe you can talk about what you were doing from a steroid standpoint. You, you obviously had a little bit of that kind of like inflammatory, almost like bloated look that some folks will get with steroids. But I mean you were both overusing alcohol but then simultaneously on steroids as a personal trainer.

Yeah, well, no, I was at that point. I wasn't with 24 Hour Fitness just yet. And a lot of it was self esteem. I was chubby as a kid growing up and I'm just releasing it maybe right before this one, a podcast I did on dyslexia. I have dyslexia, learning disability, reading disabilities. So I hate reading in public. Barely graduate high school with the 1.8. Kind of the stupid kid in the class, you know, make fun of chubby. And then I said, okay, somebody at the gym said, hey, try these little blue pills, you know, Diana Ball or Anavar and try, just try these. And, and you start to get bigger and bigger. And then, you know, you get more self esteem and now, you know, fighting people and getting thrown out of clubs and clubbing and, and just this really rebellious. I was 270 some pounds.

Two hundred and seventy, yeah, you, you were pretty big. And I, by the way, I missed the steroid train back in college. I remember because I studied exercise physiology and a lot of the athletes at University of Idaho also were in the exercise science program. I remember a guy sitting beside me, a big old German guy who was playing for the football team. He was actually thumbing through like this, this catalog. It was, it was written in German, but it was basically a collection of different steroids and chemicals of course were getting jacked. And he tried to get me to go in on an order with him. And not only did I not have the money at the time, but I was a little bit scared of that whole scene. So even for me, when I got into bodybuilding and.

Extreme hypertrophy in college, I was pretty much like creatine, tuna fish and the cheapest steaks I could get from the grocery store. But you know, the, the steroids were, of course, you know, they, they were there and they were available. And you know, by God's grace, I, I didn't Happen to, to get connected to them. But how long were you using steroids?

Yeah, I mean that's, and that's what I want listeners to know too. That's always the best way to go is how God created us healthy because there, there has effects and you know the word steroid is used a lot, you know, with, with I'm getting a steroid shot in my shoulder for shoulder injury. Now it's a different steroid. Yeah, we're talking about anabolic. Anabolic, androgenic steroid. Anabolic means growth as opposed to catabolism. Androgenic means male hormones. And so you know, then I got into heavier testosterone, sustenance, 250 equipoise, Winstro V from pharmacies, actually veterinarian pharmacies for horse, horse drugs, echopoise and then there's water based, oil based. But then I got into Anadrol which is a very strong tablet, very hard on the liver and then also eventually into growth hormone. Growth hormone which was about a thousand dollar a month shot. You had to keep it refrigerated and then just you know you begin to inject yourself and and so I was just boy looking for affirmation, looking so almost in the cost versus the benefit, you know. Now looking back it was crazy because I did end up in the hospital at age 24 with myopericarditis, inflammation of the heart muscle due to strep throat. Strep throat went to there. But I started at about age 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22. And that's when I started working for 24 Hour Fitness. Worked the way up the corporate ladder and eventually said, you know, I, I got to stop this. But I continued just with this destructive lifestyle and learned a lot about, learned to read my own blood work, you know, HDL and LDL and triglycerides and, and, and trying to formulate what was going on. But that's when so I now I use. My point was now I use all that information to help people because I think spiritually and physically they, they affect each other. You know, if I have a big venti and a big big vente and a big donut and I try to go preach, I don't feel too well or if I get, you know, Pandix Panda Express and in out Burger and get a poor night's sleep, I don't feel too well. And so how we treat our body make. I don't think people realize the connection between depression and gut bacteria, you know and, and, and productivity and it's Good to be. It's good to focus on longevity, but also productivity. I want to be productive while I'm, you know, searching out this longevity goal. So that's what God used. God. God broke me in my 20s, humbled me massively. It's in my books. I talk about it. And that basically called the prodigal son home.

Yeah. I want to hear about how God actually entered the scene for you, because we got time to talk about how he got broken. But you mentioned donuts, so I'd be remiss not to mention that you can have donuts, folks, but you got to do the healthy variety. And this is top of mind for me, because I baked a beautiful batch of a dozen donuts yesterday. And it's this super antioxidant, rich form of flour called Himalayan tartary buckwheat. And I combine that with some baking powder, some collagen, some eggs, and a little apple cider vinegar. And you. You stir that all up, and then you add a little bit of melted coconut oil and a little bit of, like, a sweetener like stevia or monk fruit. You pour that into these silicone donut molds you can get on Amazon or wherever. You bake them for 15 minutes. It's super easy. Wow. And then the. And then I made a glaze. And the glaze is just melted coconut butter and a little bit of maple syrup, or you could use honey and a little bit more coconut oil. And you kind of like, dip the donuts after they cooled in the glaze. And then I sprinkled bee pollen and coconut flakes on those and put them into the refrigerator to set. And I literally. Breakfast for me this morning. I had a couple donuts with a cup of coffee and. As opposed to the venti Starbucks that you mentioned and going and grabbing a fried donut from the local donut place. You know, you can actually. You can have donuts, Shane. It is allowed. You just got to make them the right way.

Well, you. I mean, you just made a great point in the fitness industry that we get caught up on labels. You know, all natural or. Yeah, it's. It's. It's not the item itself necessarily. It's what's in it. You know, partially hydrogenated oils and processed foods and the white flour, and it just. No. No health benefit to your body at all. Where everything you just mentioned, from the bee pollen, I mean, that's one of the most complete foods on the planet Earth.

Oh, yeah. Technically, the donuts is healthy as a steak.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so. But, yeah, to answer your question, I was pursuing everything but God. I was one of the top paid, you know, highest producing sales counselors and managers and district because it was all about, you know, performance and hitting my numbers. And that's how we were rating success.

And then in the corporate world as it's people, my mom was praying for me, people were praying for me. I don't want anything to do with God. You know, I'm kind of, you know, just having fun. Leave me alone. But then my life started to fall apart. God really got. Began to get my attention with just, just a broken, broken marriage. And again, alcohol, arrogance, punching holes in the wall, you know, just a mean, angry man without the spirit of God in me. And then as a corporate, you know, you probably know this. A lot of people know this in the corporate world, but as in a corporation, you know, we had. We had same store growth. So I had to have a 6 to 8% same store growth. And I had to keep beating myself every month, you know, in hitting, hitting goals and what's. And I began to miss those goals. And then I eventually got demoted for a season. So from a district manager down to a manager and my boy, that was humbling. And just all of this, there's so much more to it. Just issues that were happening behind the scenes and the alcoholism was taking its toll. And that's why I wrote that book, Help, I'm Addicted. And it was a hungover. I remember it was 1999 or so. And I just said, God, I need to come back to you. I'm sorry, I've drifted like the prodigal son.

Wait, when you say, God, I need to come back to you. So were you raised in a religious or spiritual household?

Yeah. And that's another controversial topic. You know, was I safe to begin with in the first place? But I believe at 12 years old, I was at a camp. And the Bible talks about repenting and believing. I repented, I believed. But then the bad influences came in. My dad wasn't a Christian. And so I just went the way of the world, you know, from Laughlin to Vegas to Palm Springs to the clubs down at Venice Beach. I mean, it was a mess and so. But I always woke up in the morning convicted, you know, like, this isn't right. This isn't right. This isn't right for years. And kept fighting that and fighting that. And so it wasn't. That's different than somebody who says, I don't care. I love this lifestyle. I actually didn't like the lifestyle, but I Was caught in it because of the sin and the addiction. And so I think to me it was full surrender. If I could use a choose a word, it'd be full surrender. I finally surrendered everything. God, you've got my whole life I repent I've been running from you. And that was a defining moment that really changed everything.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because, you know, I too grew up in a. Well, I grew up in a, in a Christian, in a relatively, you know, strict conservative Christian household. You know, I was homeschooled. I was the little Sunday school boy, went to church every week and, you know, memorized scriptures that my dad gave to me and read theological books. And it was really in college that I got tempted by the world and began to take a deep dive into alcohol primarily.

Right.

And in a lot of partying and girls and clubs. And it sounds like a lot of the lifestyle that you were living, very similar. But I remember like, I would still go to church almost every week in college and I'd be at church hungover and having, you know, sitting in the pew at like 10am after having gotten out of the club or the bar at 2am that morning. And, you know, I live that lifestyle all the way up until I got married and kind of sort of cleaned up, at least by, you know, the world standards when I got married, but still continued to live what I would consider to be a life relatively distant from God. You know, still going to church on Sundays when I felt like it, and just being a kind of non present, absent world obsessed father and husband. And it took my marriage nearly falling apart, like, oh, this would have been about eight years ago, that until I actually realized, oh, I'm going to lose my family, I'm going to lose my wife, I'm going to lose my kids, I'm going to lose everything that I've built up to this point. And most importantly, I'm going to lose my union with God unless I actually step back and begin to prioritize primarily God and then my spouse and then my children and then my health and then finally my business and what I at that point had on a pedestal, you know, making money. And so, yeah, it's kind of interesting that you can be raised Christian, you can be raised knowing the truth, you can be raised knowing all these principles that really allow you to be spiritually healthy, and yet with all these other temptations that come by, you can completely neglect that and live almost like a hypocritical lifestyle.

I didn't even know that Ben that's pretty, pretty cool to hear your story. And I think that's why it's so important that I said what I said earlier, that God has to break us.

Not.

It's not true of everyone, but a lot of us. I needed that pride broken out of me. And you know, there's just, there's a. There's a rebel within, a rebel within that wants to just do his own thing. Especially in my 20s. And just a series of, you know, who God loves, he chastens, he brings them back. And so just. And that was a turning moment. And then now, you know, I start preaching. Of course, preaching is my passion. Preaching the word of God, the totality of God, the absolute truth of God's word, the inerrancy of scripture. And believe it or not, I don't know if I haven't shared this very much, but for many years I tried to bring in some health aspects and people would say, you know, Pastor, leave that at home. You know, this isn't important. Spiritual things are important. I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, maybe, you know. But then I came to realize they just like their Big Mac and they like being 60 pounds overweight. And so conviction. So I said, you know what, Enough of this, because it helps a lot of people. So years ago I started bringing back in. Not during a sermon necessarily, but on the side. You know, we have health expos. I teach on health and fitness and fasting. And I think when your body, when you start to feel better, you start to live for God better. And again, I mean, there's people in the third world countries or on the mission field or people bedridden. I'm not, I'm not suggesting that, but I'm. Those of us who can make changes, it can really, really, really impact your life, even spiritually. Because think about this. How important is discipline spiritually? So if we're not disciplining our body physically, we're often not disciplining our body spiritually. They go hand in hand without a.

Shadow of a doubt. Oh, absolutely. I was reading a book, it's actually a book on the Jesus prayer, which is a huge thing for me these days. I fall asleep now and when I wake in the wee hours of the morning, I mean, this was like an hour for me last night between 2 and 3am and also when I'm tempted, for example, when I travel and I'm tempted by pornography at night, right, when you're alone in your hotel room and that's pretty easy to access, nobody's watching. And my Wife's not there. And.

I rely on this prayer. It's called the Jesus Prayer. It's very simple and pairs well with breath. Actually, you breathe in and you say, oh, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God. And you breathe out and you say, have mercy on me, a sinner. And you. And you almost develop like this mantra. You breathe in, oh, Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And you begin to just repeat this prayer over and over and over again. And, you know, I found that something as simple as that just seems to allow me to be able to retain my focus on God in moments of stress, in moments of sleeplessness, in moments of temptation. And while reading that book on the breath, or it's actually called the Jesus Prayer, she gets into this section where she talks about the link between physical stoicism and physical discipline and spiritual discipline. And she actually, I don't know if it's research that she cites as much as anecdotal data that goes into how people who are athletes who. Or people who have a rigorous physical disciplinary protocol actually tends to be folks who report struggling less with addiction.

And succumbing to temptation. And also people who report having an easier time doing things like devotion, prayer, meditation, breathwork, reading the Bible, etc. Because they're just so used to overcoming, let's say like those first two really uncomfortable moments in the gym, or those first super uncomfortable 30 seconds in the cold bath. Or you know that marshmallow test at the restaurant when you're not punishing the entire bread bowl as soon as it comes out? And it's kind of the same when you wake up in the morning and you want to flip on your phone and start working or.

Delve into the tasks and the business of the day. Especially for driven individuals, it feels like kind of taking that step, first step into the gym. There's that same resistance when you are instead dropping chew knees in prayer or opening the Bible before you open your cell phone or doing something that allows you to grow spiritually. For me, every morning it feels the same as a workout, and it just never goes away. It feels the same as a cold bath, and it never goes away. This slight cognitive resistance to. To starting off the day with something that is spiritually meaningful. Yet I think that the practice of things like self denial from a food standpoint, doing the hard thing and swallowing the frog with the morning workout, getting in the cold bath even when it's cold, seems to ease that transition into having some kind of a spiritual discipline. It's probably one of the reasons why the apostle Paul says that spiritual training will or physical training is of some benefit. Because there's, as you've just noted, some real concrete crossovers, I think, into the spiritual disciplines.

Wow, that's a lot. I've got a lot of thoughts, so cut me off when it's time. But even that verse, that verse in context, Paul is not saying that physical exercise is not beneficial. All he's saying is listen spiritually. And where you're going spiritually in your relationship with God is the priority and the physical will benefit to some degree. And so people use that scripture out of context and say, well, look, it doesn't matter. No, it actually matters a lot to take care of your body and to be physically active. And the whole point that you're just saying, I haven't heard of that book or anything. But the point is, as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So as you're disciplining yourself to pray and to read things that are God honoring and to not watch the Internet and things at time. And these, these spiritual disciplines have ramifications later. And often we don't do them because we don't feel like it right now. Right. Our feelings. And we have to remember that feelings are the caboose of the train. They're not the engine. Self discipline is the engine of the train. And our feelings, how we feel, that's the caboose of the train. So I think it's so important, as you think is, is the direction you're going to go. And then finally, you know, there is a lot of. When I did that book on addiction, I did a lot of research, but there's a big connection between like gluttony and pornography, you know, alcohol and pornography, because you're giving in, you're not remaining disciplined, you're giving in to these fleshly appetites. And then as a result, the flesh gets stronger and stronger and stronger. And so that, that's definitely tied in. Discipline is so important. It's a biblical principle. It's actually a fruit of the spirit, you know, love, joy, peace, contentment, long suffering, self control, controlling self. But when we make it a work, you know, Christianity, we call works based. We don't want to make it okay if I do this, you know, for example, if I fast, God's going to love me more. No, he's not, but I'm sure going to love him more. You know, there's there's, there's. These spiritual disciplines are just absolutely incredible, and they benefit us in a huge way, spiritually speaking.

Oh, yeah. Those of you who might be watching the video of this podcast may have seen me craning my neck just a little bit as Shane was talking, because I was looking back at my bookshelf in my office library. One shelf contains all of the books that I want to come back to that are big heck yeses to reread every one to two years. And one book, I was forgetting the author, which is why I was straining my head. I believe it is. Let's see. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Richard Foster. I want to make sure I got the name right. So, Richard Foster, the celebration of discipline is. Oh, yes, there's another guy named Donald Whitney who has a great book on the spiritual disciplines. As a matter of fact, not to toot my own horn, but in my book Endure, which is a book I wrote on the spiritual disciplines, I have this whole anthology of about eight different books that I've read that have taught me all about meditation, silence, solitude, fasting, breath work, et cetera. But, you know, this idea of disciplining oneself physically is actually something that, surprisingly, despite you and I talking about, it's important. Shane doesn't appear so much in these books on spiritual disciplines, but I would love for more of these books on spiritual discipline to throw in a section on physical disciplines like cold plunges and breath work and heat tolerance and working out, because again, of that crossover. And with my sons, I pray with them each morning. We gather for family Bible reading and meditation about 7:30am each morning. But then I'm very intentional about. About tossing them in the cold pool. I. I say that it sounds like I'm just, like, abusing my children, but it's all voluntary on their part. They follow dad out in the cold pool. I'm intentional about them kind of getting to the point where they're super uncomfortable with high heart rates in the sauna. I'm intentional about breath work. I'm intentional about even when we travel, you know, before we have breakfast, sometimes it's 100 burpees in the Airbnb. But I know that part of that is going to make them stronger and more resilient and, you know, harder to kill, so to speak, from a physical standpoint. But it has direct crossover into their spiritual growth and their ability to be able to do things like resist temptation and to grow spiritually. So I think that in Christian circles, sometimes this stuff is underrated or considered to be too Much of living carnally or living in the flesh. But in fact there's a lot of crossover into spiritual growth.

Yeah. And I've got five kids too. 18 down to four. So I'm going to have to, maybe I'm going to see how many of them want to jump in the cold pool with me. And you know, all these points you're making are biblical. As we learn things, as we get wisdom. I mean breathing and meditation. We're not talking about some mystic religion. We're talking about waiting on the Lord and breathing and just spending time and turning off everything so you can hear the voice of God. And those who wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength.

Yeah.

And their spiritual strength is renewed. But yeah, you're right. Discipline.

I think it's because anytime I talk on this there's always, you know, 1 out of 10 people that get upset because they think like, man, you're too extreme. You're making it like Christianity do all these works when it's just a relationship. Well, true, but because it's a relationship, I want to commit myself and live to the best of my ability. And therefore that's going to require spiritual disciplines and disciplining the body in all areas. Because man, the flesh given full rule and reign in your life is a disaster. Think about it.

Yeah.

How many people sleep in because of the flesh? They go grab a, you know, 600 milligram caffeine venti and then the, the bad donuts. And then now they want In N Out Burger. Now I have to lay down. Now I want my three hour Netflix binge. So most people are living their whole day is guided by the flesh. The flesh wants this. What you're talking about is saying, no, stop. Here's what we're going to do instead of. And it's called delayed gratification because I don't feel like it right away, but later on, sometimes within minutes. I'm so glad I got up at 3:30 or 4 in the morning and started reading the Bible. But right then it didn't feel good. So we have to remember that the feelings, this is how temptation works. This will be good for some people. Temptation is about immediate gratification right now where spiritual disciplines are about delayed gratification and a little bit after you make the right decision. And that's how temptation gets you, is it? It wants you to experience that immediate gratification, whether it's sleeping in or pornography. Pornography is huge for men and women now. And there's, there's steps to that as well. I Talk about in other books, but it's all connected. It's all connected. A life that's not spiritual, spiritually disciplined is falling apart in many different areas.

Yeah, it's trading short term mouth pleasure or sexual pleasure or physical pleasure for some long term deleterious effects on your overall life. And I actually have a couple of thoughts based on what you were just saying. The first is that I don't talk about this too much on my podcast, but some people are like, well, why would you want to live your life in such a stoic fashion? Why would you want to buffet your body each week with a frowny face in the cold pool, or pushing the weights around or swinging the kettlebells or doing the heat like this just seems almost like a form of masochism. And I'll admit that it can be. I think that there are even some social media influencers out there and fitness experts and even probably people listening to this podcast who take things too far, who push their bodies too much, who are on their 20th Ironman Triathlon and are working out two hours a day to the neglect of relationships or their spiritual walk, or who have fitness and stoicism on almost too high of a pedestal. But at the same time, yes, it does take a little bit of the pleasure and enjoyment.

And the tasty marshmallows out of your life's experience when you are operating in a spirit of discipline, in a spirit of stoicism, even to the extent where like you were talking about Shane getting up at 3:30 or 4:00am and being slightly more tired all day long compared to maybe your friends who are sleeping until 6 or 7am well, there's two thoughts I have on that. One is obvious. It's that there's not a lot of impactful world leaders and world changers who are not a little bit tired all the time and who also do not have some element of disciplining themselves and passing that marshmallow test. And then secondarily and again, I realize this might alienate some members of my audience who might not believe in eternal life or the message of Christianity, but I believe in a forever life. I believe in eternal bliss forevermore that we experience after we die in the presence of God in heaven, on a brand new heaven and a brand new earth, that's going to be absolutely amazing. And you know what? If me going and doing the hard thing each day transfers over into me being better able to to follow God's law and maintain my spiritual disciplines, and that then leads to me being given the opportunity to live forever. Well, I tell you what I will do. Cold baths and meditation and reading the Bible and praying and following God's law all day long, if again by the grace of God and not by my own works. That amount of stoicism and discipline that I got to hold onto for 70 or 80 or 90 years is something that is giving me the opportunity to exist for infinity in the presence of God. To me, it's a pretty logical trade off.

Wow, there's so much. I just appreciate what you said and even to piggyback off of some of it, you made a good point. What we believe and I can show through the Bible, historically, prophetically, archaeologically, scientifically. I mean, I'm a skeptic by nature. And so, you know, with lining up with the Bible.

What we believe is you're not saved because of your works, you saved because of repent. You repent and believe in Jesus, that finished work on the cross, but now you have to not work for, but you work out your salvation. In other words, I don't want my testimony to be ruined. I don't want to live a lazy, lethargic, gluttonous lifestyle that's, that's not biblical either. And so you made a good point about finding that balance because it is hard to find on one extreme is slothful and, and these people rarity, they don't accomplish much. But then you do have the other extreme where you know, this is I, I'll, I, I probably gravitate towards this side for sure. Probably like you and other type A driven because there's no happy medium. You're always kind of, you know, do I fast too much? Do I do this too much? And so I mean we can talk about that in a minute too, how to find that balance. But my point is the more I and people need to be encouraged to fall forward too. If you think I do everything perfectly. I don't think. I mean I fell on most of my fasting, I fall often. But the key is to get back up and fight again to fall forward. That's really the key. Not about perfection. You got to do this. Hey, I'm pursuing Christ and I'm going to fall in the way, but I'm going to get back up and finish the journey and spiritual disciplines, you know, with it's basically as you know, sitting is the new smoking. And so if you, if you turn that into spiritual comfort is actually not our friend. If we're too comfortable and hoping to talk to Gary Beckett Becker, I think is his name you mentioned him before, Gary Breca. Oh, Breca, yeah, yeah, man, what a lot of great information. But he's right. With comfort those who are comfortable, you know, you sit more, you don't move as much. Your body really needs to be like fasting doesn't, you know, and kicks in autophagy and telomere growth and brain derived neurotropic factor and all these things under stress. So your body's adapting under stress. So if there's no stress, you don't. You actually longevity is hindered as well because your body is created to react to these stressors and to become stronger and build your immune system up and all these other areas up even better. And so that's why spiritual disciplines or even physical disciplines, I should say that to me, physical and spiritual run parallel. I know spiritual is more important, but if I'm, if I'm disciplined physically, I'm also going to be disciplined in the spiritual things as well. And so just kudos to a lot of what you said. But I think it's important for people to know that we're not saying you have to do all these things, but to finish the race. Well, and I tell people, do you want to live the last 10, 15 years of your life in a nursing home or hiking and walking and maybe pass away in your sleep or maybe pass away, you know, some other way, but to have the quality of life and to be productive as long as possible. And so yeah, it is. The lifestyle is harder. But think about this. Those who are just, who are not disciplined, they're not. They don't care about what they eat, they don't care about, you know, that's too hard. Well, they also live with a lot of depression because they live in the pain of either experience the pain of regret or the pain of discipline. You're going to experience one of those pains. So yes, although being disciplined has its downsides, I guess if you want to say that you're not having as much fun. Me, my wife have these discussions sometimes, you know, she was a sugar addict, complete opposite. And so we kind of meet in the middle. But you know, you live with some depression and man, I wish I would have gotten shape. I wish I could have been a better grandparent or parent for my kids. I wish I would have. So you know, there's pain with that as well. It's not being slothful and lazy and not doing anything doesn't really lead to wonderful things in the future.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. You know, to expound upon what you were saying about how you're not perfect all the time, man. I don't want to tell you how many times, especially with travel, Shane, where I feel like I've, you know, I'm, I've got my spiritual walk all in order and I'm praying every morning and I'm reading the Bible and I'm meditating. And then you travel and your whole schedule gets thrown to whack. You gotta, you know, you're used to maybe not taking your first business call till 9 and all of a sudden you gotta be at the conference room, breakfast at 7am or you got in late the night before and you need a few extra minutes of sleep because you have a big day or a speech to give or whatever. And it's so easy for things to start to slide, especially when you travel or when life gets busy at home. And I don't want to tell you how many times I've had to get myself and get the family back on the bandwagon. That's just the reality. Do not expect perfection. If you're listening right now when it comes to the spiritual disciplines in the same way that from a physical standpoint, yeah, you're going to miss the gym sometimes because life happens, or you're going to miss your sauna cold or whatever, you're going to miss your breath. Like that just happens. Don't hold yourself to perfection. But the most important thing, as you noted, Shane, is to get back on the bandwagon. I think also that you noted this concept of autophagy of cellular cleanup and increased cellular resilience in response to healthy and moderate doses of physical stress, or so called hormetic stressors. Everything from the slight damage that eating a wide variety of plants and herbs and spices might do to your gut, but the long term resilience that can produce in your body from being able to produce its own antioxidants, or the short term rise in heart rate or rise in blood glucose, a rise in body temperature in response to the sauna, or a similar physiological response to the cold that would kill you if extended, but that allows you to bounce back stronger in the long run. Well, from a spiritual standpoint, be careful or at least know what you're wishing for. Because if you ask God to be spiritually strong and you ask God for spiritual resilience and you ask God for the ability to become who he fully has created you to be, oh, there are definitely going to be some trials and tribulations that get sent your way. But you know, it's kind of you Know back to what Viktor Frankl says in man's search for meaning from a secular standpoint or job from the book of the Bible from a religious standpoint, if you're happy no matter your circumstances and if when God sends, I don't know, a house fire or a relationship issue or a financial problem or you know, one of one of your children having a real serious issue or a medical or a health problem, if you say, you know, God gives and God takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord. I'm going to be happy no matter my circumstances and I'm going to use this as a way to refine me, right? The pressure makes the diamond and the fire makes the gold and you move through that. Then every single time something like that happens, you begin to become someone who's not only.

Able to maintain your union with God and your belief in salvation no matter what and your own spiritual growth, but you also become someone who's able to help and encourage and empathize with so many other people. I mean one example of that, Shane, is like I have a princess gut and I've had a lot of serious gut issues in my life and have struggled in years with everything from diarrhea to constipation to sibo to parasites to yeast to fungus. You name it, my guts taken it. It might be because I'm 25% Ashkenazi Jew and the Ashkenazi Jewish population is known for kind of having this super sensitive gut. But when someone comes to me for help with their gut, man, oh man, not only do I empathize with them, but my body of knowledge, not to toot my own horn, but I'm really, really good at helping people out with gut issues because of so many curveballs God has thrown me with my own gut. So there's kind of a silver lining there as well. And you know, we've alluded to it a few times, Shane, but I really and this was my initial reason for wanting to get you on I want to talk about fasting and kind of this fast fee cycling and your own experience with fasting. So tell me about the book you wrote on fasting and what your own fasting protocol or I believe it was almost like an experiment was in writing that book.

Yeah, there was the one you're talking about feasting and fasting. I did bring bring a copy people can take it, take a look at actually and just so people know we're not necessarily promoting a book is they can actually download these for free on our church website at Westside Christian Fellowship. All the books are there, free downloads. Poop. Click it and you're good to go. So I just want to help people, but Amazon, last I checked, doesn't let me put them on there free. We tried to get, you can do.

Like 99 cents on Kindle, which a lot of people do.

Yeah. So we went real low on Kindle and audible and things like that.

So with fasting, the funny thing is, you know, in the bodybuilding world that's like, no, do not miss a meal. You know, every two and a half hours. Keep the metabolic rate up. And of course we know that. I don't think that's really true anymore. With insulin and how it's released, you.

Got to have all your Pyrex class containers full of, full of brick and you know, broccoli and chicken at least three or four times a day.

I was up to when I had the 8,000. I was up to 8,000 calories when I was at 270 on growth hormone. And you had to make yourself eat, you know, it was, yeah, I remember the bowl of pasta and chicken. So anyway, so I was taught, I mean, I've heard, I read it in the Bible and I would justify like, oh man, I don't. They didn't know what they didn't really know, you know, as much as we know now. I know. Ezra fasted, Nehemiah fasted, Esther fasted, Moses fasted, Elijah fasted, Jesus himself fasted, Paul said in much fastings. And so fasting is throughout the whole Bible. And Jesus said, when you fast, not if you fast. So that's pretty interesting. So there was a lot of conviction, you know, when I first came back to the Lord, like, ah man, they don't know. It's not that good for you really because you'll die if you don't eat for what, what was a normal three.

Days, you'll die or at least you'll miss some of your gains, bro.

Yeah, you'll miss. They call it, looking back when I was lifting, it was, you look sucked up. I don't know what they say now, but you look sucked up. And now you call it gear for steroids. Back then we called it on the juice.

So I was pretty much pushing it away. Especially if you're into, as I get older now, wanting to retain my muscle.

Hello.

You know, I went from bench pressing 315 pounds 15 times to now maybe deadlift it. You know, it's just because you start to decrease, as you know.

And so that, by the way, Shane is an uphill battle. Now, in people who are encouraging fasting is this concept of muscle centric medicine, which is fantastic. Muscle is critical for longevity. The problem is there's this myth going out there that in order to maintain or build muscle, you must feed it constantly. And in fact, it's kind of the opposite, actually. You've probably come across this research that short term fasting stints can, especially combined with resistance training and things like protein refeeds, cause subsequent bounce back and increase in growth hormone and testosterone and hypertrophy, while also giving the gut a break and allowing for some cellular autophagy to occur. So there's a definite case to be made for intermittent fasting cycles and even periods of longer term caloric restriction.

Yeah, like the five day fast with insulin, like growth factor raising and everything you just said. I, I personally would. I always went past that. I actually did a 40 day fast, primarily water only. You did 40 days and 40 days, what price. I did some bone broth and I did some juice. If I had to preach and I talk about it. It's a fasting documentary on Amazon Prime. They just, they just posted it. It's. I think it's called 40 days, my 40 day journey. And it was, I was confused.

I want to hear more details on this. Walk me through this 40 day fasting journey.

You go from a guy who's totally against fasting and then just reading, you know, in the Bible, Jesus fasted 40 days. You know, I follow a little bit of Alan Goldhammer's stuff. We've talked on email before and of course they don't recommend, don't, don't fast without. Super. We should probably say that too. Disclaimer. I'm not giving medical advice here. I'm just telling you about my own personal experience. And I think you do need to get medical advice if you're delving into waters that you're not familiar with. So I was just ignoring it for a while and playing around with it, but I thought, you know, hey, this is possible. I lost 37 pounds over the 40 day period. We did the documentary, but I had to preach sometimes three times a day, like on Easter. And so that I would bring like a cajava, you know, smoothie, maybe 200 calories, two scoops in it. So it wasn't what they would call pure water only because in order to do that, you can't take any nutrients. Nutrients in whatsoever to go. You know, if you're fighting. I would recommend if you're fighting cancer or these, these types of diseases that really need you to go deep into autophagy. And so it was just incredible. After three or three days, not really having hunger, but the, the, the, my mouth was, and I was getting heavy. I was eating primarily plant based and I got to £230 and just a lot of nuts, just too many calories. And so I, I, I, I understand that calorie, you know, we shouldn't count calories like we used to. And it's, it's, it's more about hormone levels and not as much about, but I, I, calories also play a role in, I mean if your body, if you're taking in more than you're, more.

Than you're burning, calories play a bigger role than anything else, Despite a lot of the folks who try to defy that. If it fits your macros like at the end of the day, if you restrict calories and exercise, you'll lose weight. Yeah. Just watch that horse to death on other podcasts.

Yeah. And so maybe it'd be good to talk. We can talk in the future. I'm curious where you stand on that. But the bottom line is I think we should be aware of what we're eating because I said okay, mainly plant based, got some clean meat and was just eating too much. And people are like, well yeah, I work out five days a week, but I eat too much. So if you eat too, because I'm that late night eater, I don't know if I could just stop at 5 after a healthy big salad and chicken breasts, I'd be great. But then the chocolate, you want this, you want peanut butter, you want, we have. Lady dropped off a couple gallons of raw organic goat milk.

Oh man.

Oh, I love that stuff.

And by the way, I'm the same way with late night eating. Just because we have so much good food around our house that people send us the dark chocolate bars and all the different healthy ice creams. You know what saved my butt is ketone esters. I now have ketones with dinner and after dinner I don't even think about food because my ketone levels are so high. That's my days.

The little five dollar liquid.

Yeah, they're not inexpensive, but yeah, like a shot of ketone esters or even the ketone alcohol alternative, the one made by ketone aid. Like having a big glass of that with dinner if you can. And you can, you can measure this with a sensor like biosensor, any ketone measurement device. If you can kind of figure out a way by the time you finish staring at ketone levels above about 3 millimolar. Like you just, you don't think about snacking at night just goes away. Which is great.

Well yeah and I actually ordered some after you recommended though so I'm anxious to try. I try one out but I want to get more too. So anyway back to the 40 day fast and there was a time where I said forget it. We were at the in laws house and I had some salad and a little bit of meat and I feel like you know how you, you're going two weeks you feel like upset, depressed that I blew it a little bit and so I got back on track the next day and just kept going, going. Eventually got to like 193.

From 230 and so the what why I was doing it though mainly is spiritual reasons. You know there's a verse in the Bible this kind does not come out except by prayer and fasting and the spiritual disciplines because if you just fast it's a weight loss program for Christians. That's why you've got it instead of, instead of eating you take it to prayer and time with God. And what's amazing is I didn't realize how much extra time I had. Have you ever, you know when you don't eat all day?

Oh at least the calculations I've done is with making the smoothie in the morning, you know, lunch with the emails, dinner with the family that I don't quite count because I want to be in the family with the, or with the family in the evenings anyways. But it comes out to about an hour and a half or two hours that if I cut out a meal or on the days I decide I'm just going to do like a fatty coffee or some ketone esters and amino acids with lunch because I want to be highly productive. Yeah. I mean the, the, the time and the freedom of time and also of course you combine that with the focus and the productivity from the, the elevated ketones and the fasting and it. Yeah, I mean the productivity impacts are.

Enormous and one so I, you know and I was, I wasn't too worried about you know vitamins, minerals because I took a little bit of supplementation and overall it was a great experience and I, I wanted to do another fast that was about a year ago and it is, I struggle. Okay. When is too much but I began to realize studying it in the Bible, looking at all these different things, I think a person especially as a believer should live a fasted lifestyle. Now I don't mean I should Clarify. I don't mean you gotta be fasting all the time, but I don't think you should just fast for 21 days, juice only on January 1st, and go back to bad habits after that. You know, there's a lifestyle enjoying what God has given us, enjoying, you know, the donuts you mentioned or birthday cake or. But there's a, there's a, there's, you're, you're either disciplining the flesh or the flesh is disciplining you. There's, you know, that, that's, that's. I hate to say it that way, but that's the truth. I'm either bringing my flesh into subjection or my flesh is leading me. And it's a, it's a balance, it's a hard, you know, you've got the, that, that battle inside of us. And so I think as we're following God, as we're asking for clarity, as long as it's not, you know, oh, I want to get a six pack of abs. I want to be this super spiritual person. I want to, you know, if your focus is on serving God and pleasing him in the Word, you know, you'll be guided, you'll be, you'll be led to what is the right direction. So I don't know if there's a happy medium because, you know, those who fast a lot feel like they're fasting too much and those who don't feel like they need to do it more. But I think if you can just, you know, live a self disciplined life and I think adding fasting to your weekly schedule is, is pretty important because that way you don't get too out of control.

I think so too. And just to share with people like a practical boots on the streets protocol, actually I'll do that in a moment. But I got to mention, and I don't know if you've seen this book, but I first discovered the power of combining spiritual disciplines with self denial from a clerk or a food standpoint. When I read a book, it's super cheesy looking, you can find on Amazon, I think it's only a couple bucks, but it's called Atomic Power with God through Fasting and Prayer. It's by a guy named Franklin hall and he gets into all of the different remedies that are healed and the impact in terms of the power of prayer when you combine it with self denial. And as we were talking about earlier, the link between curtailing hunger and appetite and being able to curtail things like sexual appetite or sinful Appetite. And I read that book, it was absolutely fantastic. But to get back to what I do now is daily, I do an intermittent fast for 12 to 16 hours. And I gotta admit, I'm a lean guy with the high metabolism. Most days I wake up hungry and I could go make myself a smoothie right away. But I engage in all of my morning spiritual disciplines. The prayer, the devotion, the scripture reading, etc. Without any coffee, without any food, and I have a big glass of water when I get up. So this is like a mini fast each day for, for women who are premenopausal. You want to be kind of careful with that because it can down regulate fertility and have an impact on the endocrine system. So women do a little better with 10 to 12 hours, guys closer to like 12 to 16 hours, but I think that's fine from a daily standpoint. And then every quarter I do a longer kind of like getaway, similar to your 40 day fast, but only three to five days where it'll be juice or bone broth or amino acids and ketones, at least 40% or less of the calories I'd normally consume. This would be almost like what would be called a fasting mimicking diet approach. And I use that time to catch up on the giant stacks of books on the deeper sections of prayer. Sometimes a solo retreat in my house, like a staycation, so to speak. And so four times a year, spring, summer, winter and fall, I have caloric restriction and fasting combined with prayer, meditation, spiritual reading, and a focus on the spiritual disciplines. So it's intermittent fasting daily and then a quarterly deeper dive for three to five days, which is pretty achievable. And then you mentioned about kind of balancing the caloric intake with the caloric denial. Well, this is where I think religion, if you want to call that, ties in pretty beautifully with these spiritual disciplines because we have one day of the week, Sundays, where not only is my physical activity much lower or at least less intense, you know, it's like walking with the family, bike rides, tennis, pickleball, et cetera. But Sundays are the feast day, Sundays are the glorious like double waffle breakfast with the family, or big pile of eggs and the big lunches sometimes with friends and a big dinner party at our house. And you just basically fill the body with everything it needs for the whole week. Which is also great for resetting the thyroid, making sure the thyroid doesn't get downregulated from too much caloric or carbohydrate restriction. That's a Day in which I don't worry at all about carbohydrates, even though I'm more careful with carbohydrates on the other days. So basically I would say six days of the week, I'm kind of sort of hungry most of the day and especially hungry during that intermittent fasted period. And then that's the self denial piece that we talked about earlier in this podcast, has so many side benefits. And then I get that one day of a week where it's rest, where it's embracing, almost like a little glimpse of heaven. And I get all the food I want, all the feasting I want, and then four times a year I can do the fasting with a deeper focus on the spiritual disciplines. Again, back to what you just noted, especially because I've got an extra two or so hours in the day because I'm not making or worrying about food anyways.

Yeah, well, you just made a couple good points. And I think that protocol, I would actually heavily endorse that protocol and encourage people to do that. And when you take that three to five day, it's good when you have a little bit of juice. That's why you can get a lot of stuff done with your book, reading different things because if it's just water only, you know, that's when you go into some pretty deep detox symptoms and things like that, which is good too. But I want people to know, hey, I'd rather have you have 2, 3, 400 calories of juice every day and get through a five day fast and have you give up on day one. You know, the benefits are amazing. And you talked to, you mentioned the longevity diet or the, what was that?

The fasting diet.

Yeah. Valter Longo is just an hour for me at usc. He's got a lot of great research. And then Daniel Pompa, you know, mutual friend of ours. Yeah, he talks a lot about that feast day. The reason the feast day is important is because your body will become accustomed to what you're doing. And, and that's why people are worried about a metabolic rate slowing down. That's actually why it slows down, is if you, if you keep this caloric restriction you keep and your hormone levels from, I mean, gosh, glucagon up to insulin, up to the different ones that regulate the thyroid, then your, your metabolic rate will slow down to meet this caloric restriction. So that feast day is like kind of a throwing into the system. Oh, wow, okay. We can, we can absorb, you know, we're not, we're not going to starve to death here. And on feast days I encourage people, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't eat as much until your stomach's going to pop like Thanksgiving. But you know, to where you've, you've been satisfied. Well and you've went deeply into these areas and that I think that's another important, you know, six days a week you're. And it's okay to feel a little hungry. I don't think people, even from a biblical perspective there wasn't an ampm on every corner. I mean people would go, I mean they would go sometimes days and not eat. And that's why I look at everything from a creation standpoint. So when you ask me what diet people talk about paleo, carnivore, you know, keto, I look at creation. How did God create us? And he created us for seasons of feasting and famine. And so I think if you're not fasting to some degree and you're just taking in whatever your body wants it, that's why, why are all of our health related illnesses skyrocketing? Diabetes is lifestyle related. It's a lifestyle choice. Heart disease, obesity, even Alzheimer's and the things, how the brain is affected, a lot of these things all cause mortality. If you look at most of it's diet related.

Yeah, yeah. Could it be that excess and hyper palatable food.

Excess, yes.

Yeah, exactly.

And the wrong kind of food.

Yeah, yeah.

You talked about thyroid downregulation and we're going to kind of get into the weeds here momentarily or for just a moment. But I think there are even ways to skirt that. And yeah, maybe Jesus and the apostles and a lot of the Old Testament prophets didn't have access to a little bit of better living through science, so to speak. And perhaps they didn't even care about longevity maybe quite as much as we seem to be obsessed with it. But nonetheless I think that ketone esters again are fantastic because they give the body a metabolically available fuel that keeps it from engaging in as much endocrine downregulation and thyroid down regulation as you'd see with pure caloric restriction. And then so and it also has a very, very low impact on things like MTOR and insulin pathways. And so I think it's, it's probably one of the better things, even better than juice for something like an extended fast being able to get by with as few calories as possible. And then the other thing, and this would be more for like super lean people or people who would tend towards hypothyroidism or downregulated thyroid activity. Anyways, and this is not to be misconstrued as medical advice, this is a total biohack. But you can actually get desiccated thyroid glandular. There are companies like Ancestral Supplements or I believe Heart and Soil has some. There's another company out of New Zealand that has one called Thyro Gold. And you can actually take thyroid to keep your thyroid supported in the face of caloric or carbohydrate restriction. And it can actually help out a little bit with your body not kind of resetting the metabolic rate too low after a period of caloric restriction. So I'm a big fan of the ketone esters and the thyroid glandulars for fasting as well.

Yeah, and you mentioned the ketone esters. Unless people might not be aware, but it's the liquid. So if you're taking in ketones right away, it's already in your bloodstream, it's already in digestion. Your body doesn't have to now, you know, break down ketone bodies and the fat and the fuel. And also if people are interested, they can follow me on YouTube and rumble and Instagram and Twitter. And I sometimes do a lot of health related from a biblical perspective. Like I just did one on, on supplements yesterday, talked about Thor or Thorn, I guess it's called and all the different supplements out there. And I also try to help people on a budget because not all of us can have, you know, infrared beds which you can just walk out in the early sun or grounding, you know, grounding is great but if you don't can't buy anything, you can go out in the grass and in the dirt. I think that's biblical. I mean that's how we were created because the body's letting off charges. And so what I mean by I look at everything based on creation, how did God create us? What types of foods? What type of diet is best based on creation? What type of is fasting biblical? And it's really because you have this person say no meat. You have this person say all meat. Both experts. So where do you find the source of truth? So if I stick with that, I really don't get too confused on and that's why I liked your whole aspect on your books and your website is because whether you knew it or not, it's grounded, you know, in creation. Like how are we created? What types of foods did God give the body to eat? Yeah, it's so important.

And despite there of course being A great deal of biochemical individuality. I think that if you really step back and if you are a creationist, for example, which any Christian listening into the show probably is the right. The first diet known to human, humankind likely did not involve death or killing or animal suffering or anything of the like. And I do believe that the human body, in the way that it was originally designed, can do just fine on plants and fruits and seeds and nuts and really good water and sunshine and a connection to the planet. Yes, there must also be involved with that type of dietary approach a great deal of fermentation and, and soaking and sprouting and treating things like plants and seeds and nuts in such a manner that they have improved digestibility, more amino acids and a reduction of their plant defense mechanisms that can do damage to the gut. And I think that also there's a need to eat a plant based diet in as whole foods based a fashion as possible, rather than kind of like the ultra processed vegan or vegetarian, you know, tofu whole wheat sandwich, you know, giant 18 apple smoothie that you see so commonly implemented these days in a plant based diet. But I think that you can do a plant based diet. It just takes a lot of work. And I think furthermore, this might also get into the weeds a little bit. Shane, I think the, the chemical composition and the environmental composition of the planet was likely far different prior to the Great Flood. And we know this from some fossil records. The size of fruits and vegetables, the amounts of them, and probably also their nutrient and chemical composition was likely superior when the earth was first created. At least that's my belief. And so I don't think that we'll be having ribeye steaks and, you know, Mary's half roasted organic chicken in heaven. I think it'll be plants and fruits and seeds and nuts, that there won't be any death or animal suffering or anything of the like. Yet fast forwarding and getting back to what you were talking about like a biblically based omnivorous approach, because I do think, and there's ample evidence for this in scripture, that God kind of gave the thumbs up on people eating meat and fish and that that's just a natural part of our existence now and that if we do so without the animals suffering to a great extent, and if we do so we'll be in good stewards for this planet, that it's okay and arguably a much more convenient way to get adequate nutrients and calories than eating plants. I think that if we were to step back and include that omnivorous consideration that two examples of really good diets. One would be a guy I interviewed yesterday on my podcast that hasn't been released yet, Jordan Rubin, who wrote a book called the Maker's Diet, which is a diet that takes into account our stewardship of the planet and caring for this planet in the way that God's called us to, while also eating a lot of organic grass fed grass, finished, pastured, raw products. And then a very similar diet would be the Weston A. Price diet, which again is a lot of ferments and vegetables and plants that have been treated properly, combined with things like sourdough bread, grass fed grass, finished meats, pastured pork, chicken that's been raised humanely, et cetera. So those are just two examples of diets that I think would fall into the category of something that feeds the body adequately and that also honors the planet, honors the animal and honors God if it's, if it's comprised properly and of course, eaten with gratefulness.

Well, I'll tell you a funny story you mentioned. Who did you have on the program yesterday?

Jordan Rubin.

Oh yeah. Jordan Rubin. In 2001, I met with a large publisher in, in Anaheim. It was my first book and the title was what Works When Diets Don't. And I was just coming out of the fitness industry, but I decided not to go with a publisher. I just, that's why I can offer them free. I can do them on my own. I can bring them to events and different things. And so I turned it, turned them down and they took the Maker's Diet instead. With Rubin, I joked about them. I ran into him once and joked about, said, hey, I should, I, they should have, you should thank me that they picked up your book. But I didn't want to be an organic farmer and do what he's doing. So God had his, you know, I don't regret it. I don't regret it for one minute because now we can actually, we give away thousands of books for free. And that's just where God has us. But anyway, to. Your question was.

Yeah, I mean, if you look at, you know, we were originally created to eat. And you're right, the environment was incredible. And then actually it was right after the flood. God, God told, you know, Noah, just like I gave you the, the green herbs and the plants to eat, now I also give you every living thing to eat to become fuel for you, food for you. And so maybe because there wasn't enough grass, I mean, we don't really know. All we know is you're right. From a Biblical perspective. Jesus ate fish, Jesus ate lamb. I'm sure with Passover. And John the Baptist, you know, was.

Was eating grasshoppers and wild honey.

Yeah.

And so we do see that now. But the thing is, for me, meat and dairy have become so toxic and dirty. You have to really, you know, make sure you're. You're eating something that is. Is going to, you know, give you some benefit from the inside.

Toxic and dirty. And also, the way that they're raised and the plants are raised is raping the planet, creating dirt instead of soil and abusing animals. And so I think even. And I don't want to get all judgy, but I think more Christians at the church potluck or whatever, or even with the communion bread, et cetera, should take into greater consideration what the impact of the food that they're eating has, not only on their bodies, but the planet as a whole. Because we were called to be stewards of this planet. And I think that eating mindlessly, whether or not something is, quote, healthy, unquote, is.

Something akin to almost like disobeying or neglecting that mandate because we're essentially destroying the earth and abusing animals in the process. So I think that really needs to be taken into consideration. It seems like something that's almost like a painful point to bring up in Christian circles, though, because people kind of look at you like you're some kind of a hippie pantheist, you know?

Right. Well, I mean, to your point, we're actually called to steward the environment better than anyone else. We should. And because meat is allowed doesn't mean you have to. I mean, you know, the process of how they're raised, and it's just, it, it's, it's. It's pretty sad that how we treat the animals and we can do better in a lot of areas, so I think Christians should be fine with that. It's just a matter of, you know, choosing your battles carefully and finding out more, getting more information. But, yeah, I agree that we should be good. Like, when you go backpacking or hiking in the mountains, like I do up in the High Sierras here, you want to bring out a little trash more than you brought in.

Yep.

You know, you want to keep the streams and the river and you want to just keep everything even. How I fish, catch and release, fly fishing or something. You know, you want to, you want to just be good stewards. There should be a love for God's creation. And I just, I agree.

Yeah, I don't, I don't have Any desire to be on a spaceship to Mars anytime soon because the Earth is inhabitable? No. So, you know, you mentioned Dan Pompa and I mentioned Jordan Rubin, and I've done a few other podcasts on feasting and fasting, both the science and the historical significance of it, even from a religious standpoint. And so if you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com idleman it's I D L E M A N, which is Shane's last name. I'll link to all of those previous shows if you want to take a deeper dive. Like I mentioned, Shane's written over a dozen books, many of which are free, on the Westside Christian Fellowships website. You can also, of course, get them on Amazon, deliver them to your Kindle, etc. And I'll link to Shane's Amazon page and also his church website in the show notes, and he also has a podcast. I'll make sure that I provide you with details in the show notes on that one, too. So that's all going to be at BenGreenfieldLife.com idleman and as a bonus, I will post the crazy picture of Shane when he was a massive, huge weightlifter on gear, just so you can see the before and after compared to how he looks now.

And I was miserable and getting ready to get drunk that night, if I remember correctly.

You can tell you're not super happy, but you're huge. Well, Shane, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really like the message that you have. I like that you're teaching Christians about health and fitness. And I like the message for fasting, which of course is something applicable to to everyone. This podcast isn't just for those who go to church or those who are Christians, although I think that's a very good idea to engage in both of those things. But nonetheless, Shane, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thank you too, Ben. What a blessing to sit and talk and help people in this area.

Yeah, for sure. All right, folks. Well, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Shane Idleman, author, speaker, and pastor at Westside Christian Fellowship in Southern California, signing out from BenGreenfieldLife.com have an amazing week.