Decoding The Science Behind The Best Tasting Bone Broth On The Face Of The Planet.

Hello, Ben Greenfield here, and I hope you're hungry, because you are about to learn how to nourish your body with some of the tastiest stuff on the face of the planet in today's interview with Justin from Kettle and Fire. Bone broth. And if you think you know everything.

There is to know about bone broth.

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Fitness show, people use it as part of a weight loss regimen that also incorporates fasting. And then we also see it for a lot of people, it helps them with digestion. And so they're getting more nutrients from the food that they're actually eating, which means that over the long run, they've seen a reduction, the dampening of their appetite. We have a ton of customers that feed it to their kids. I mean, this is one of the oldest things you see that's in many traditional cultures, hunter gatherer cultures that we have today is they'll make a bone broth from bones of animals that they've killed and feed it to their kids.

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Hey, Folks, it's Ben Greenfield. And as you might suspect, there's a little bit more to this thing called bone broth than first meets the eye. And bone broth is incredibly trendy these days. There's, like, bone broth restaurants popping up in New York City and bone broth flying this way and that way around the country, and all sorts of different bone broths on the shelf of the grocery store. But honestly, it's not all created equal. You could look at the bones, for example, right? Like, what kind of bones do you use? Knuckle or patella or femur or feet, as nasty as that might be to think about, yes, your feet have bones. They can be used to make bone broth. Hopefully not your feet, but the feet of the correct animal. But there are some bones that have really high levels of collagen and some bones that frankly don't. And what you add into bone broth matters as well, right? There are things like bay leaves and parsley and alkalinic compounds like apple cider vinegar and the bioperine from peppercorn, and things that can make bone broth actually pack way more of a punch than a normal plain Jane bone broth with. With just say, like, bones and water would. And the packaging matters, too. I mean, there's a lot of companies shipping bone broth all over the place, and it's got everything from pathogens and germs in the packaging to BPA to additives to sodium to our dear friend MSG and a whole lot more. So I thought that on today's show, we'd tackle this subject of bone broth and tackle it kind of from a different perspective of teaching you how to say, like, hunch over a crock pot in your kitchen with a chicken carcass, making your own bone broth, and instead kind of delve into a lot of these done for you packaged bone broth options out there and what would allow you to actually make the best choice. And my guest on today's show is a guy who's kind of a bone broth ninja. He basically spends his entire day making bone broth and shipping bone broth and packaging bone broth and teaching people about bone broth. His name is Justin Mars, and Justin's actually the founder of a bone broth company, which I think probably has the coolest name of just about any bone broth company on the face of the planet. It's called Kettle and Fire. Kettle and Fire Bone broth. I've had it. It's pretty tasty.

It's fresh.

It's not like a frozen organic bone broth, but like a good, fresh organic bone broth that you can get shipped to your house. And I figured Justin would be the perfect guy to really fill us in on what goes into actually making a bone broth that you could actually package and ship and drink straight from your refrigerator or wherever else you happen to be. So, Justin, welcome to the man.

Awesome, man. Thanks so much for having me.

There are not a lot of people who actually work as intensively in the bone broth sector as you do. And so I'm curious, what got you so freaking obsessed with bone broth enough to actually start a business in bone broth?

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, so I was traveling a lot. I used to work in tech, and basically I wanted to incorporate bone broth into my diet, but I was traveling too much. And as you know, it takes a really long time to make. And, like, when I'm in and out of, you know, all the time, like I was then, it just wasn't really convenient. And as a result, I wasn't incorporating it into my diet. And so this was a problem I had. And then my. My co founder, who's also my brother, he suffered a really bad knee injury, like, playing soccer. He tore up his ACL and was basically bedridden after surgery for six weeks. And so we were looking for foods that could help him with recovery. He lived on the other side of the country, and I was like, man, you should try some bone broth. Went online to buy him some, and, like, none existed. And so that was the point where I just decided, you know, I want this in a more convenient format. I want this for my brother. And, you know, it just didn't exist, really.

There was like, no, because. Because I've been like, I've been to the grocery store. It seems like for a few years now, there's been bone broths. Like, I know, like Pacific Foods, for example, is one that I see a lot of times at different grocery stores, but none of that was available back then.

Yeah, so this was about two years ago. And then as I looked into it, I saw the Pacific stuff. And truthfully, it's not. I mean, it's just not a real bone broth. They basically take their chicken stock, they add apple cider vinegar, and they call it a bone broth. If you take it home, you open it up, it won't gel in the fridge. It won't solidify at all. It doesn't taste good. And the micronutrients and stuff just aren't there.

Well, what does that mean? Oh, by the way, we just lost any of our listeners who work for or affiliated with Pacific Bone Broth. My apologies, but what does that mean? That when you say it doesn't gel in the refrigerator, why would that matter? What would make a bone broth gel? And why would a bone broth that doesn't actually gel when you put it in the refrigerator not be a good bone broth?

Sure. So when you make bone broth at home, what's happening is the bones are basically breaking down. And so you get a lot of collagen, gelatin, glycine, among other amino acids and proteins in the actual bone broth. And so when you put that in the fridge, just like when you toss a jello in the fridge, which is like, high concentrations of gelatin, you know, a natural one or whatever, bone broth does the same thing. Like, when cold, the gelatin will actually bind to one another. And so you have, like, a pseudo gelatinous substance that allows you to see, like, okay, this is actually a bone broth made the real way. And you can literally see there's a lot of gelatin, glycine, collagen in this broth because of how it's firming up, how it's gelling, how it's coming together.

Okay, so that. So that firm stuff, that's not necessarily, like fat globules, it's actual gelatin.

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, you could skim the broth and skim the fat off the top of the bone broth as you're making it, and then you take what's left, throw it in the fridge. It should still firm up. It should still gel or at least become more gelatinous because of the high level. High concentrations of gelatin and other amino acids.

Okay, gotcha. All right, so your brother, his name is Nick. Right. Okay. So Nick tore his ACL while he was playing soccer, and he was looking for things that could help with healing and help with recovery. You went online to buy bone broth, and you just basically couldn't find anything.

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, we. He was living at home at the time because he was. It was his senior year of high school, and he basically. You know, we're the oldest of seven kids, so my mom had no time to make bone broth for him, and so we went online, couldn't find it anywhere.

Okay, so in terms of bone broth, what about, like, the frozen stuff that you can. You can get shipped to your house? Frozen?

Yeah. So that didn't exist at the time. But now that it's out there, there are a couple companies that have a frozen bone broth. I just truthfully, I think it still doesn't solve the problem that I wanted to solve, which is it's not convenient. You buy it, you have to put it in your fridge or freezer, you have to thaw it for multiple days in order to be able to use it. And then the shipping is incredibly expensive, and it comes in kind of harmful styrofoam containers that I'm just personally not a big fan of.

Okay. And so I want to ask you a little bit more about, like, the packaging and stuff like that in a little bit. But I think that before we get too far ahead of ourselves and talk about like, the packaging and the ingredients and things like that, in terms of bone broth itself, I mean, there might be some people listening in who haven't really, you know, tapped into using bone broth or aren't aware of its benefits. So why would somebody. Because I have about a cup of bone broth every day for my recovery. You know, I put it up there with things like colostrum and aloe vera and chlorella and a lot of these stem cell precursors that help an athlete's body or anybody's body to recover and repair more quickly. But for people listening in, what would be some other reasons that you'd even want to do something like drink a cup of bone broth a day or cook with bone broth or make it a staple in your diet?

Sure, yeah. It's a great question. So the biggest reason for me is I think if you look at the average person's diet, maybe not yours, but even someone that's relatively health conscious, maybe they lead a paleo lifestyle, eat pretty well, whatever. What people are often missing is they're missing a lot of the key proteins and amino acids that you just don't get from eating cuts of lean muscle meat and organic vegetables, fruits, nuts. If you're just eating organic vegetables and then cuts of meat, chicken breast, grass fed beef, whatever it is, oftentimes you're not getting a lot of the amino acids and proteins that exist in high concentrations in organ meats, in bone marrow, and in the bones themselves.

I was going to ask you. When you actually are looking at a lot of these things that bone broth has that maybe you're not getting from other nutrients, one of the things that comes to mind for me is something I've mentioned on a podcast before, and that I should probably mention again, that's this whole, like, red meat causes cancer type of idea and the concept here. And I don't know if you're too familiar with this, Justin, do you know where I'm going with this?

I am, yeah.

By the way. Okay, so, yeah, red meat has a ton of methionine in it. It's an amino acid that when unopposed, when consumed in high amounts and unopposed and not balanced out with other amino acids, is actually the part of red meat that makes red meat carcinogenic. Like when you see all these headlines that, like, red meat causes cancer. And so when I started to delve into that research, because I eat, I probably have red meat like two or three times a week, which is not a ton compared to some egg and bacon chugging paleo enthusiast, but I still eat a decent amount of red meat. And so one of the things that got fleshed out from that research, pun intended, kind of is that you have to balance out the red meat, the methionine in the red meat with this other amino acid called glycine, and apparently, from what I understand, bone broth. And so for me to do like a cup of bone broth on the same day that I have like a rib eye steak or some ground beef or something like that, that's actually providing me with a pretty concentrated source of glycine. Is that correct?

Yeah, absolutely correct. And that certainly helps with digesting red meat, with regulating and clearing out excess methionine and the stuff that you just mentioned. There's also interesting studies around how glycine can actually modulate or the. I was going to say attenuate, but you can cut that. That might be too much. But how it can effectively attenuate and dampen the metabolic response to sugar. So when you, when you increase your consumption of glycine or ingest glycine with sugar, glucose, the glucose response is severely dampened in terms of the insulin response. And so effectively, when you. Some studies are showing. Yeah, and I'm happy to send this to you too, if you want to include it in the show notes. There's some interesting studies around there, but they're basically showing that the insulin response after the ingestion of glycine is pretty different in terms of 50% dampened when you ingest glucose plus glycine, as opposed to just glucose alone.

Interesting. So similar to something like, you know, because I've mentioned before about the use of cinnamon or apple cider vinegar or even, you know, a supplement like bitter melon extract prior to consuming a carbohydrate rich meal. You could also, for example, to stabilize blood sugar while consuming a carbohydrate rich meal, you could, you could have something like bone broth.

Yeah, exactly.

With your chocolate cake.

Yep, exactly.

Interesting. I actually was unaware of that. So it has a blood sugar lowering effect. We know that the glycine is important. And, you know, I've seen all sorts of claims, I'll be honest with you, James or Justin, about healing a leaky gut or overcoming food intolerances, or improving joint health, or reducing cellulite, or boosting the immune system. And one of the things that, that I tend to see people complain about with bone broth is this idea that there's not really a lot of research on bone broth itself. Right. Like, when we look at a lot of these studies and these claims that people make about bone broth, they're referencing, like the individual constituents of bone broth and no actual, like, lab studies that have been done on bone broth as a whole itself. What do you think about that? I mean, can you take all the individual components of bone broth, like say, glycine or glucosamine or collagen, and say, well, hey, lab research has said that collagen can help your joints heal. So therefore bone broth is going to cause your joints to heal, or same for glycine or glutamine or anything else. How do you tackle that issue?

Yeah, it's a great question. So I think that to some extent you can say, okay, collagen is. Studies show collagen is good for you. Bone broth is extraordinarily high in collagen. So therefore, it's highly likely that the collagen in bone broth, especially given how bioavailable it is, is likely to have similar or better effects than lab studies that have been done with collagen supplements. So that's one point. I totally understand where people are coming from in that some people are skeptical of that. But to me, given the responses I've seen from our customers, given, you know, some of the research done around these different constituent parts, I think it points to this. You know, it points to that. It points to bone broth being a really, really powerful food in terms of healing and helping with some of the things that you mentioned. Now, that said, there's certainly not enough studies that can conclusively say, you know, bone broth is this miracle superfood that does X, Y and z. And to that, that's something obviously I want to fix it's something that we care about. And to that we're actually working with some academics right now to pull together.

A well proposed, scientifically valid study that hopefully will give a better sense of what exactly are the hard numbers? What are the impacts of incorporating bone broth into your diet?

Gotcha. Just don't kill any laboratory animals in that study.

Yeah, none.

Be careful with the rodents. And by the way, send me that study on the blood sugar lowering effect of bone broth. I'd love to put that in the show notes. And for those of you listening in, you can go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com KettleAndFire that's BenGreenfieldFitness.com kettleandfire to access the show notes for today's episode. So we know a little bit about why bone broth is good for you, good for your joints, good for your immune system, etc, and you know, I personally, from my own anecdotes and also I know a ton of people listening in like they swear by this daily cup of bone broth. There's even that old proverb, right, that how's it go? Bone broth can raise the dead. Is that.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And I mean, if you open our refrigerator here at the Greenfield house, you see mason jars and there's usually like, well, there's four different things that you'll find in the mason jars in our strange fridge. Number one, anything my wife ferments and she, she ferments fricking like lemon rinds and tomatillos and elderberries. And like our whole fridge is just a bunch of mason jars of things that have been fermented and preserved and pickled. And then there's also, and this is more for me, chia seed slurries, where I'll take chia seed and I'll mix like 1 part chia seed to 9 parts water. And I use that chia seed as like a base for, for smoothies and stuff like that. And then I'll also use it as like a natural stuff sports drink, right, where I'll add some stevia or some lemon juice or some sea salt or things like that to it. And then the third thing that you'll find in glass mason jars in our fridge is this stuff called pao d' Arco bark tea, which basically involves me ordering pao d' Arco bark off of Amazon. And I let it sit in these jars and then I blend it with something called sunflower lecithin. And that creates a very, very potent precursor for something called nad, which all These, like, pharmaceutical companies are rallying to produce drugs that contain it. You can actually get the same thing by making bark tea. And then the last thing that you find, as if there weren't enough jars in our fridge, is bone broth. Like, those are the four things, like fermented foods, the chia seed slurry, the bark tea and bone broth are staples here at the Greenfield house. So we've got, we've got tons of bone broth around and, and I'm certainly convinced for myself that it, that it, it makes or breaks me in terms of like recovery and joint health etc, and also keeps me from having to, you know, buy a bunch of glucosamine chondroitin supplements. But I want to delve into some of the nitty gritty of bone broth because I know it's not all created equal. And the first question that I have.

For you, if I can just start.

Start throwing stuff at you, because I want to take advantage of having you on the call because I know you study this stuff a lot more than I do. There's cowbone broth, there's chicken bone broth, there's fish bone broth. Right. Those are the three most common bone broths that I see out there.

What's better?

Or is there one that's better? If you were just going to choose one bone broth or basically focus on just one specific animal, would you choose one?

Yeah, I mean, personally, I think that the beef is the best, and that's for a couple of reasons. One, bigger bones. And so, you know, you get a lot more marrow in them, which means that you get a lot more of the benefits of the bone marrow actually seeping into the broth itself. Chicken bones, just by virtue of being smaller, they're not going to have as much marrow in them, you know, and fish is even, you know, will have even less. And so if I'm putting my money on.

One or two animals to use to make a bone broth for, I'm likely going to use cow bones.

Do you need to be concerned about the cow itself? Let's say a cow got growth hormone.

Or got antibiotics, Is that the type.

Of thing that can actually pass into the broth? Can those get concentrated in the bones, or do you just have to worry about the, the fat and the meat of a cow in a situation like that?

No, you absolutely have to worry about that stuff. And that's why grass fed is incredibly important. That's why, you know, using organic practices and raising is incredibly important. And, you know, that's why personally we, we make sure that all of the bones we use in our stuff is 100% grass fed, certified, both grass fed and grass finished. Because that's really important. It makes its way into the bone marrow. You know, that changes the fatty acid composition in the bone marrow, which then means that you get a different broth if you're using it from a factory fed animal as opposed to one that has access to pasture 100% grass fed, all of that.

Now for your guys's cows, where are you getting the actual bones from the cows that you use?

Yeah, so we're getting the bones from small kind of family ranchers certified, again like I said, 100% certified grass fed, but ranchers all over the Midwest and into California. So we, we're sourcing a lot of bones. And so we're working with actually a grass fed bone collective that helps us source from all of these ranchers that have, you know, agriculture and raising practices that, that we agree with.

Got it. Is there any kind of like hypoallergenic benefit of choosing like a fish or a chicken over a cow or is it. Or just simply the convenience that it's easier for the, for the average, whatever housewife or house husband to toss a chicken or a fish in a crock pot versus shoving an entire cow femur in?

Yeah, truthfully, I think it's convenience. I mean, I haven't seen any studies that point to chicken being better than beef or anything like that. So I think it's mostly convenience just because to make bone broth the way that we're making it, you need to have, you know, you need to cut the bones in a very specific way to expose more marrow. You need to do a couple of different things that assist with breaking down and make sure that you get all the nutrients in the bone broth. And most people are just unlikely to have a bone saw or something like that in their kitchen or even be willing to want to do that.

Right. Actually, my wife has a giant bone saw in the garage because she actually does things like butcher entire pigs. And then I have it now that I can use on deer and some of the wild game that I get. But you are correct, most people don't have bone saws just laying around.

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Okay, so, so another, another question for you related to bones and bone saws. The actual bones themselves. Does it matter what kind of bones you use? And if so, why?

Yes, it certainly matters. So we like to use a combination of bones because we found that different bones provide different benefits. Some bones will have more connective tissue.

A lot of the knuckle neck bones that come from that part of the animal will be very, very rich in connective tissue. And that's where you get a lot of the collagen and some of the other proteins that make up the connective tissue. Tendons and the like, other bones like femur, neck, back, you know, they will be more marrow rich. And so that's where you get a lot of the benefits of the bone marrow. And so we use the combination of those to kind of get the best of both worlds. And so we don't prefer to use, you know, just toe, just knuckle, just neck. We try and get a combination so that we get all of the benefits that you can get from bone broth.

Okay. So the best bones would be bones that actually have the connective tissue on them. So we're talking knuckle, patella, femur, feet. Any others?

No, you pretty much nailed it.

Okay, all right, cool. And the main reason for that is that those are the ones that have the highest level of collagen, and they also have the highest level of marrow.

Yeah, exactly. So specifically, the connective tissue ones, you know, toe, knuckle and the like, will be more. They'll be more high on the protein side, whereas the other ones are more marrow rich, like femur and all of that.

Okay. And now when you're using a word like marrow, obviously marrow tastes pretty good when you smear it on sourdough bread with a little bit of sea salt. At least that's the way that I like to eat it when I'm not getting it from bone broth or even as gross as out my wife, but that I like to do. I'll even suck it out of the bones. But in terms of marrow, I know there's some differences in marrow. Like you've got like white stem cell marrow and red stem cell marrow. What's the different types of marrow? What's actually going on in the body when you consume marrow?

Yeah, so there's some really interesting studies that show that the fat tissue in bone marrow is a really significant source of certain hormones, especially adiponectin, which help maintain insulin sensitivity and break down fat. And so you're getting those hormones, as well as a lot of lipids, which are also called alkal glycerols, which are involved in the production of white blood cells, which again, is really, really good for you. That helps fight off infections, contributes to general health maintenance and the like. And so by getting these different hormones, these different lipids from the bone marrow, it's just more nutrition, more tools to arm your body with and, you know, in terms of improving your health.

Does the marrow automatically seep out of the bones or do you have to, like break up the bones and cut them up in order for the marrow to come out when you're making the broth?

Yeah, so it will seep out on its own. If you're making it at home, you know, it's certainly better than not making it at all. However, if you break it up, cut it, kind of do the things that we do to treat it, you can maximize the amount of bone marrow that is actually seeping out from the bones and gets into the broth itself. And so you can see a really big difference too. I mean, between treating bones, cutting them, splitting them, whatever it is, there's a really big difference between that and just bones that you toss into a pot and cook for a while.

Now, when it comes to the actual ingredients that you put into the bone broth. So you got the bones, you get the marrow, you've got water, I'm assuming. And I actually want to ask you, like, if there's a certain kind of water like distilled or reverse osmosis or.

Carbon block or whatever, what kind of.

Water you actually use. But I'd like to hear more about. About why you choose the specific ingredients that you choose. Because your bone broth tastes really good. Don't tell my wife this, but I like it just as much as the chicken broth that she makes on the kitchen counter here at home. The stuff that I've got in my refrigerator from you guys, it tastes amazing. But I'm curious, you've got this big list of ingredients, like your carrots and your organic celery and organic onions and bay leaves and apple cider vinegar. What's the secret sauce? Like, why did you choose what you choose to add to the bone broth? I know that's kind of a loaded question, but I'd love for you to delve into your recipe for sure.

Yeah. So we chose a couple of the ingredients just to maximize the nutritional benefits. So things like apple cider vinegar, we.