East Meets West Medicine Part 1: Blood Oxygenation, Early Cancer Detection, Mold Eradication & More

Light energy, or photo modulation as it's called, is something that's underserved. I mean the public doesn't know very much about it. And this is the device on your left is called the Weber laser and it's from north of Frankfurt in Germany.

It's quite the machine.

And it's got, it's, it's probably the best studied laser device. And there's two, two or three different components to it. You have the, the different frequencies, typically between 500 and 1,000 nanometers. But you have red.

Blue, green, yellow and UV light and infrared. So you'll get all of those. So in what we call a rainbow, a rainbow IV session. And it interacts with things that have a.

It photo modulates so it interacts with the yellow in the vitamin C and the magnesium in the drips. So it activates the I, the, the energy drip.

More.

More.

All right folks, this is a pretty epic show. I've been aware of some time for this hotspot down in the Bay Area right in downtown San Francisco called Anutara Medicine. As a matter of fact, I was there four years ago. I recorded this intriguing podcast with Dr. Avi Herskowitz there. I met him at a longevity conference called a 4M in Vegas. A few months later, wound up at his facility and he has this crazy east meets west medical approach he did the last time I was there, a constitutional Chinese based analysis of my body type and metabolic type and set up this whole diet and did live blood cell analysis and a bunch of testing using some interesting inflammatory markers a lot of doctors aren't doing. And it was so interesting. And I will link to that original podcast in the show Notes, by the way, which are going to be at BenGreenfieldLife.com Anatara A N A T A R A. It's named his clinic Anatar Medicine. Anyways, it was so interesting I found myself back there at his facility a few weeks ago because he's been up to a lot since that original episode. In the realm of integrative and functional medicine, we got into a ton of stuff while I was there, including extracorporeal blood oxygenation, ozonation, plasma filtration, detoxification, metal chelation, some details on some very early cancer detection protocols via liquid biopsy, acupuncture and qigong style treatments. Stem cells just covered a host of topics on this show, so it's super interesting. And we had a videographer there the whole time. So if you want to see the visuals, definitely check out the video on YouTube on the show notes@BenGreenfieldLife.com Anatara and a whole lot more. Avi works with some of the Bay Area's top biohackers and celebrities and actors and longevity enthusiasts and patients from all over the world. People flower to see them from China looking for eradication of issues like mold and spike protein, fungus and viral particles. We even had a chance to bring in via Zoom as a part of this podcast, Dr. Sean Tierney to talk about nerve hydrodissection for stress and vagal nerve resets and some really interesting things regarding tweaking your nervous system and even getting, like, instant elimination of headaches and colds and other issues via nerve hydrodissection protocols, which I haven't talked about in as much detail as you're gonna hear em talked about on today's show. So, yeah, this one's a doozy. So strap yourself in, get ready for a wild ride.

Ch.

Check out the video version if you can, because there's a lot of visuals on this one. And again, it's all going to be over at BenGreenfieldLife.com Anatara A N A T A R A. All right, let's do this, man. It's been, I think, four, maybe almost five years since I've stepped foot into the beautiful Anatara medicine up here.

That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. And every time I walk in here, it seems like right off the bat, I get hooked up to all these crazy tools, and I got. I got a tube in one arm, I got a tube in the other arm. You've already drawn a bunch of my blood, Avi. So. So my first question for you here is, what the heck is going on here? I've got blood coming out both arms and this weird machine off to my left. Can you explain this to people?

Well, this is called the EBOO device. Eboo? Extracorporeal Blood Oxygenation and ozonation.

Extra corporeal blood oxygenation in ozonation. Okay.

Okay. One of those tubes is going out from you into the machine itself.

Okay.

Machine has two components. One component is where it receives the ozone.

Okay.

And the other component, after it's ozonated, it goes up upstream into that filter that's off to the left, off to your left. That filter.

Is. Is controversial in the sense that really, when you. If you. If you ask AI to talk about eboo, it only talks about the ozone component.

You mean literally, like, if you go.

To GPT and inquiry 4.0 GPT and you ask it to talk about Eboo, it only talks about the effect, the positive effects of ozone.

Okay.

That's because there aren't been. There haven't been published studies as to what's found in the filter. So there's a debate going on in the community. Is it filtering anything? So I can tell everyone here now that there are credible studies that we've reviewed that show in the filter. When you study the filter after a treatment, you find a variety of things that you don't want in your body. You find bacteria, viruses, fungi, mold, and heavy metals.

And you. Do you do that with every procedure with the filter, or is this just something that researchers will do occasionally to see if the filter is actually picking anything up?

Well, we didn't do the testing. The testing is done by third party sophisticated groups.

Okay.

But we know after looking at all the data, and we presented the data at a course that I ran about a year or so ago before the ACAM meetings and were very impressive data. So they were also trying to find clues as to whether you could find the spike protein because it was the pandemic time. Yeah, that couldn't be. That couldn't be documented.

And what's an ACAM meeting?

ACAM is the. I'm president of the oldest integrative society in the United States. It's. It's going to celebrate its 50th anniversary in our next meeting in the spring of 2024. It's an. It's. It's the. It's the group that brought chelation therapy to the United States for.

You mean for like heavy metals and toxins and things like that.

This is the group that brought it to the forefront. It's the group that will bring it again to the forefront. Because the second chelation study will. Will soon be published by the end of this year or the begin or Q1 of 2024. So there's a lot of. So when we have our meetings which draw very solid, functional medicine and integrative medicine folks, mold experts, experts in ozone experts across the spectrum of all chronic diseases. We also have another focal meeting, you know, focused meeting, and we focus this meeting on ibu.

What's ACAM stand for?

American College for the Advancement of Medicine.

Okay, all right, got it. So this controversial filter that the blood goes through, that's not even theoretically, but it sounds like, based on research filtering out bacteria, viruses, fungi, possibly mold, spike protein, et cetera.

Yes.

Okay. And then what happens to the blood after it goes through the filter?

Well, then it returns back to you so you can see if the camera could focus on it.

Or in the B roll.

And oh, by the way, if you guys are listening and not watching, I'll put the video@BenGreenfieldLife.com Anatara A N A T A R A so go to Ben Greenfield, Life Anatara because it's actually a pretty funky looking machine and a very, a very slightly violent looking protocol because there's blood in a lot of tubes. But the machine that you were illustrating here, Avi, is off to my left. That's where the blood's getting ozonated.

And then it goes. The ozonation is occurring below after it.

Passes through the filter. That's when it.

No, before the filter.

Okay, gotcha.

So before the filter, before the ozonation, the blood is darker red because it's Venus blood. After it's ozonated and the O3 minus, which is what ozone is, binds to all the cells, red cells and white cells in the blood. It turns the blood brighter red because it's oxygenated.

Can you tell by the color of the blood coming out of somebody when you first hook them up to this thing, whether or not they're healthy or whether, whether you'd be concerned?

There are ranges of redness.

Yeah.

And if you, if you can't transport.

If you can't respond to ozone, then you're, you're, you're very way off the, the curve. Okay, so at the same time, you cannot tell a person's health from the color of their venous blood. So the darker your venous blood, it could mean that you're extracting more oxygen in the arterial sector. You're just extracting more and you can have darker blood. It doesn't mean anything. Negative.

Why do they call it blood oxygenation and ozonation? What's the oxygen component?

Oh, it's just the ozonation produces oxygen.

All right, so. So both of those effects are happening in response to the ozone. The ozone's cleaning and oxygenating at the same time.

Ozone is a pro oxidant, as you know, it happens in seconds or milliseconds and then induces an antioxidant, anti inflammatory, vasodilatory membrane stabilizing effect on the whole body that it comes in contact with.

And does the level of ozone matter? Do you select that carefully in terms of how much ozone you're exposing the blood to?

So when we first started using these devices, this is the third one we bought our first device, and that was calibrated at a higher level of ozone. And there were other mechanical issues with the device and that device had what I consider serious complications. So we stopped, we analyzed it, we understood what they were, and we realized that it was not for us. So then we went to the Malaysian group that, that really founded eboo therapy about 25, 30 years ago, like in.

The country of Malaysia.

The country of Malaysia is, is the epicenter of EBOO technology.

It's kind of random.

Yeah, it's just. But I think it was, it may be an Australian doctor that moved there.

Oh, I got you. Okay.

So. But they have the most experience in the world. We're catching up now because they're now, you know, a few, certainly more than a few dozen centers that are using it.

And.

So these devices, this is the second iteration of that device, are exceptionally safe, but they're much lower in continuous ozone concentrations. So when you're using a single. Last time you were here four and a half years ago, you had a 10 pass. You had. Yeah, remember that 10.

That's different than this.

200Cc amounts of blood ozonated, not continuously. It was sucked into the bowl. We then ozonate it and then give it back to you 10 times.

10 times, like all the time.

So that's a certain concentration. And we use the highest concentration, the highest gamma, so to speak. And that's the, the, that's the, the way we, we measure the concentration. So we use 70 gamma on 200cc. You come up with a calculation. The amount of ozone in this is smaller, but the effect is larger because it's continuous.

Okay.

It's a continuous flow. It's continuously probably flowing 2/3 of your blood, of your blood volume.

Now, just in case the doctors listening to this and they're interested in this, in this protocol or for their clinic, what's the name of the machine for Malaysia or the brand? Are you allowed to say no?

No. I don't even know what it is. But we'll, we'll.

It's just a Malaysian one. Just, just Google Malaysian eboo.

I'm sure you'll find it's really the, the art is in the tubing and in the filter. The choosing of the tubing because the, the tubing is having a smooth treatment, as you're having right now, is a function of flow. And the flow has to be proper and consistent, even though placement of the vein is not consistent and your vein valves are not consistent and eventually coagulation isn't consistent. So we have a certain level.

Of modification that's built into the tubing size and then more importantly into the filter. The filter Itself has to be ozone resistant, can't be. Can't be damaged by ozone. So you have to be cautious as to the name of the, of the filter.

How big of an issue is that in, in this whole, like, you know, IV medical treatment industry where, you know, people are cowboying off all over the place and, you know, in random clinics and getting these, these type of IVs done. In terms of the type of things that might wind up in the blood from the tubing or from the machining, is that an issue, you think, with microplastics and things like that? I've always wondered.

Clearly is. But with ozone in particular.

If it's not ozone resistant, you will deliver byproducts of the tubing into the body.

Interesting. And what's the bucket on the floor over here?

Well, that's the effluent. And the effluent is, is supposed to be fairly clear. And it's, it's considered to be a byproduct. And when you test the byproducts, you have more concentration of heavy metals.

So that bucket on the floor is different than the filter. It's catching something different.

It's catching what's gone through the filter.

And that's called the affluent effluent.

Effluent, E with an E. And what.

Kind of stuff would you find in the effluent?

You find the similar types of things.

That are in the filter, except.

The filter is made up of millions of microfilaments. And when you snap, when you cut those microfilaments and you test them, you're much more likely to find higher concentrations.

So you tested my blood before we started this procedure?

Yes.

Would you be able to tell from that test you did on my blood whether I've got bacteria and yeast or viruses or things that this ozone would be treating, or would it make more sense to take that effluent and send it off to a lab and test that?

Well, what we did do, just because the audience hasn't seen it, we did take a little tiny bit of your blood and you're welcome. And we put it on. We. We did a dark field microscopy to look at the, the shape of your red cells and so on. They're quite healthy, as I told you. But what's going on? The plasma, Is there.

A biofilm in the plasma? Is there excess fibrinogen in the plasma? Is there extra things that will clog the microcirculation up? And yours was pristine, as I told you.

Do you do that before all of.

Your ozone treatments before any of the EBOO treatments? Yes.

And what happens after? Do you ever do a live blood cell?

We've done. We've done. That's how we do them.

Does it look different?

We show them a massive difference.

Really?

Yeah.

Interesting. So can you Steel, man, the, the blood cell analysis? Because I've heard some people say, oh, it's inaccurate, or, you know, that's dumb, that you're trying to look at blood cells on a slide. Like, do you ever hear stuff like that?

Well, I can tell you as a, as a formerly trained pathologist, that that's very naive, not that's very naive kind of statement to make. There's an enormous amount of expertise that goes into reading darkfield microscopy, and you can make a myriad of different diagnoses. But looking at the shape of red cells is exactly what the machines do every day at LabCorp. A million times. Yeah, but sometimes you have to have an overlay of someone looking at it themselves.

And why do they call it dark field?

Because it's not using stains and it has. The light source is indirect, so you're looking at it in a way where, where you can best visualize the cells and the plasma.

What else did you test when you took my blood?

Oh, we tested. Well, there's two things, two major categories. One is something that you've had before, which was I, I knew you from. This is four or five years ago. Super, super, super healthy. Gone.

Yeah. And I'll link to that initial podcast.

We did biohacking, guys. So I, I, I surmised that you had no evidence of acute, you know, the standard inflammatory markers, the C. Reactive protein and so on. I, I surmise that.

Yeah.

But, yeah, that probably we're more interested in. If you're interested in longevity, you have to deal with the chronic immune system, which is not measured by the C. Reactive protein. So we go to the complement cascade. That's complement with an E. And the best measure for chronic disorders like biotoxins like mold, Lyme viruses, occult tooth infections. Those things that are not evident to a person until it's late. Well, your C4A level, which is the complement marker that we use more most.

Frequently for chronic inflammation.

Yeah, we also use C3A, but C4A is the most common one came up. I think it was four or five times elevated. So it suggested that you may be exposed from mold from your travels. We know you don't have mold in your home, but you probably capture mold.

In, oh, notoriously found in Airbnbs and Hotels and, you know, front load washers and all sorts of things people experience on a regular basis. But the, the, the blood test that you did for these inflammatory markers, you'll often hear people say, well, CRP might be elevated if you exercise hard the day before or something like that. So, like, if I'd have lifted weights or ran, would that also artificially elevate those?

No, that they would and they can. There's no way to disprove it. But the other markers, to get to the other thing. So you look at other markers for oxidative stress. That's not good. So you look at ferritin, which is a classical iron marker, but when it's rises in a, in a normal man or woman, it's really an oxidized.

Iron, which is rust.

Yeah, like rusting your body from the inside out if your ferritin levels are too high.

That's correct.

Which is, can be concerning because there's a lot of, I know, especially women out there who are taking both ferritin and iron. And from what I understand, if there's things like an imbalanced copper ratio, not a lot of that is winding up in the cells. You can develop like an induced hemochromatosis from something like supplementation.

Most of our patients that have elevated ferritin don't have hemochromatosis. They have oxidative stress that's out of control. And then you could also get some indirect information from using oxidized ldl. You could say, if I'm oxidizing my iron, maybe I'm oxidizing my lipids also.

Yeah.

So then you say, you put the package together and you say, well, maybe I'm not really repairing well at night. I'm not detoxing properly at night. And you could measure homocysteine levels and say, do I have enough magnesium? Do I have enough B vitamins to repair, to do my appropriate level of methylation at night? And if I don't, you're more likely to be oxidatively challenged. And then most folks are not walking around with antioxidants that are sufficient to handle their oxidative load. So they may be, particularly your group, they may be pushing themselves and, you know, using NAD and using all the things that produce more energy. The question is, what? When you produce more energy, you're also producing more reactive oxygen species. And do you have enough of a buffer to capture those and, and buffer them in your body? So, so ozone, for example, the few people that feel fatigued after ozone treatment because ozone is exceptionally safe. Let's make crystal clear here. We've done it tens and tens of thousands of cases here over the last 12 years. But if you feel fatigued afterwards, that means that that oxidative burst was too much to be handled by your antioxidant stores at that moment.

So would it be a good idea based on that before you use ozone to take antioxidants?

Well, no, to a certain extent. You want the oxidative burst to be unencumbered.

Yeah, I was going to say because like with exercise, if you take antioxidant, blunt some of the, some of the beneficial hormetic response.

And that's the hermesis is the one. I want to get into a lot more in detail with you today. But you're right. So you don't want to do that. But at the same time you want to give an antioxidant. It's sort of counterintuitive. You say, I have a pro oxidant and then why would I give an antioxidant? Well, because the way it manifests the majority of its beneficial effects is by activating our own antioxidant systems. So you, you give it a little bit more. And typically we give glutathione intravenously and people just feel great afterwards.

So theoretically you'd get the ozone. You would possibly get a clue based on that and even verifiable data from the blood testing that you are in a pro oxidative state and might have a higher antioxidant requirement. But rather than using antioxidants before an oxidative event like ozone, you would then just know that you need to weave those into your daily routine on a more regular basis.

Let me tell you the poor man's test for one of my antioxidant stores. All right? It's a, it's an old story. And you take, we take the, the. One of the better. One of the best vitamin C preparations as a powder is a few we happen to. In the office we use perk. P, E, R, Q U E. He's got a very nice powder. It's three grams per teaspoon.

Is this like a whole foods vitamin C type of source?

Yeah, yeah. So. Well, nothing is whole food based vitamins. This is a sodium ascorbic. Okay, but it's, it's as good as it gets. It's not vitamin C. It's not like eating an orange. I'm sorry, but, but to get to high level, so you take 3 grams, 1 teaspoon, put in water and drink it. 20 minutes later, another 3 grams. 20 minutes later, another 3grams.

Why do you split it up?

Well, because that's the way the, that's the way it's done, I don't think, because we don't know how much you really need. Now when you saturate your vitamin C receptors of your body, you activate the CFTR receptor, the cystic fibrosis translocator receptor in your gut. This is the same thing that turns on when you get cholera diarrhea. It's like a water faucet. So you have this sudden urge to run to the bathroom. You can't do this on the street, you have to do this at home. And then you just poop. You have your watery diarrhea movement and that's the number, that's the level of antioxidant. That's the level of grams of vitamin C that was required to meet your antioxidant load at that moment in time. So who.

That is definitely a poor man's test.

The prize here was won by someone who, who needed 120 grams. The next one was 54 grams. I mean, so you don't.

That's a lot of items.

That's a tremendous.

They have to take that much vitamin.

C. Yeah, you can't take that much because you'll want to poop.

That would, that would indicate that they were in a state of, of, of ox sedation, of inflammation.

These folks both had serious autoimmune disorders. Yeah, but the lesson was, you know, one gram of emergency is not going to help you.

Yeah.

You know, you have to layer in glutathione, resveratrol, quercetin, alpha boric acid. Now you can. So that's a rare case for, for those people in your audience in particular, in my patients, I say we need pro oxidation. It's mandatory to, for, for generation of ATP and for wound repair in particular, we need pro inflammatory cytokines to walk around and do their job. We just don't need, we don't need to overdo it.

Yeah.

So the folks that come in with two suitcases into the office, two suitcases now, and they have about a hundred different supplements. Yeah, there's a lot of overlap. But let's say there's 30 or 40 different pathways of which there are six antioxidant pathways. I say that's not a coherent answer because you're, you don't know whether you're over treating, under treating. You just don't know where you are. So then we go through a large Set of, Of. Of. Of laboratory data. We do a lot of labs here. All, all the patients will complain about that. And so we say, here are the validated biomarkers of longevity. There are a few that all of us know that there are more. You, I'm sure, have your guess as to which ones. But there's hemoglobin A1c, of course, on the blood sugar side, vitamin D is probably the most significant one. That's unappreciated by the society and certainly by the government.

Right. Certainly Certain atherogenic risk parameters too, like triglyceride to HDL ratio or apobiology.

Yeah, well, but, yeah, that those have been validated. But even ferritin has been validated as a marker of oxidation and homocysteine is a validation of. Has been validated for longevity because of its effect on methylation. So we have some. And then the other thing that I always forget to say, being alkaline has been validated to increase your lifespan. The urine ph, early urine ph, the first morning ph, if it's not between six and a half and seven and a half, then you've been acidic the whole night and then you're making 25% less protein.

So if you use a pee strip in the morning, one of these urine alkaline strips, I actually, I found a company called, I think it was VIVU last year that tests a whole bunch of stuff on the urine. And you hold it up to your phone and get an analysis and it does the alkalinity as well. Okay, but you want 6.5 to 67.

If you're doing the morning 65 to 7 5.

So 6, 5 to 7, 5 to.

7 is, is, is really perfect.

And above 7 or 7 5, that would indicate elevated acidity. And a lot of people will hear.

That elevated alkalinity acidity is down.

So most of us, I'm sorry, elevated alkaline.

Yeah, most of us are running around between 5 and 5.5.

Wow. So very acidic.

Yeah.

What do you think about the people who will hear that and go out and buy one of these alkaline water generators and, you know, get on the alkaline diet and everything, versus enabling the kidneys to naturally adjust the PH balance?

I think that's a good, tremendous marketing coup by an industry that's running out of ways to sell water because it's neutralized immediately in the stomach. And if you have, if you want to invest in a water system and get to a reverse osmosis system, take out the, the crap in the water.

What would you do if someone's acidic? If they are peeing in the morning? It's like below 6, 5.

Yeah. Probably start with something as simple as giving them some water with lemon and some pinch of salt and. And then you move up to.

Apple cider vinegar.

They'll confuse a lot of people who think lemons and apple cider vinegar are acidic because they taste kind of acidic.

But they induce.

An alkaline reaction.

I was hoping you'd say that. That's what a lot of people don't realize, technically, that's. Those are alkalizing ozone.

Ozone. Why are you giving. Why is the FDA think that ozone is a dangerous thing? Because they read a line, it says it's pro oxidant.

Yeah.

And so, well, that's what happens in a millisecond. So as soon as you drink your lemon water or you take your.

Other remedies, it's instantaneous. And then the body responds to it instantaneously. So the net effect is alkalinity.

You said that you're a fan of hormetic stressors.

Yeah. So the concept that everyone's got to understand because you can mess up if you're just going to Google everything on your own, you know, if you're listening to you, then you already have protection because you've, you've, you know, you've done so much and so much good for the society, in my opinion. That's why, first of all, I love having you over.

Thank you. There's a lot of, there's a lot of grumpy people sitting in ice baths because of me.

But I know, I know. And I'll talk about that in a minute as a positive thing too, but a little twist to it, but the concept that. Listen, we come. I've been doing this for 40 plus years. Okay. How did chemotherapy start? Chemotherapy started because somebody found that one. One child with. In the 50s, one child with leukemia responded to nitrogen mustard. Okay. And so when that person died, the oncologist of the most famous oncologist ever doubled the dose on the next patient and then quadruple the dose on the next patient. So if 1x is good, 4x must be better. That's the concept of traditional medicine per se. But it doesn't. The body doesn't work that way. So the hermetic effect. The hermetic effect is this curve is going up and you can be too. You can have such a low dose of something that it's irrelevant.

Or such a high dose that is, it induces negative side effects. So for ozone, for example, if you went to. You're on now, six gamma. Right?

Okay.

Being the level of ozone that's pumping.

Into my body right now. Yes, right now. So if you went up to 12, you would already induce blood clotting and a reaction that's actually happening here but also happening in your body. You'll be producing microclots. Given the way it's given in this particular setting, the Europeans max out their ozone concentrations at 40, 50 gamma, and in the US we routinely use 70. And it's been safe. But the reason they don't do it is they're more interested in harmetic effects than we are here. We're more, we're more cowboys here in the United States. But if you think, look at heat, look at cold, look at caloric restriction exercise, exercise in particular, you can do way too much. Now when you compete nationally, period, you're a D1 athlete or you're a competitive athlete, you're doing too much. Yeah, that's the only way to compete.

You're doing too much for health. I mean, that's a trade off. Right? It's glory versus health or career versus health when it comes to professional exercising or fitness.

That's right. So then you may have to pay back some, some, some things later.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's like our mutual friend Dr. David Minkoff, I mean, I, I certainly know that he's aware of the fact that doing, you know, hundreds of iron mans, or I think like 40 some over the, over the past, you know, I don't know how many dozen of years, it's not necessarily the best thing for your body, but it is a pretty cool Mount Everest to climb, you know, and it's inspiring for people. And so, you know, I think you just have to accept the fact and not fool yourself into thinking it's actually good for you. Last night at dinner, you and I were talking about how, you know, I have high calcium scan score and accumulated plaque most likely due to cardiac stress from excessive endurance exercise. And James o' Keefe has shown that with some of his research on arterial stiffness and this whole law of diminishing returns or increased mortality with, with excessive exercise. So regarding hormetic stressors, then you. Do you advise those and program them into your patient's protocols?

Oh, yeah. So I think when you look at Master. Master. So we know what drives. So over the last 20 years, we now know the genomics of aging. And doc Peter Attia gets that into that in detail in his good book and his longevity book. And, and get into the, the pathways that are fundamental. Right. Well, some, some, some easy interventions are fundamental. I sort of like it can do multiple things. Right. So ozone is one of those. NAD is the other classical example. It can have multiple effects on energy cycle which then also have effects on longevity.

Yeah.

But cold immersion heat with the saunas and exercise have global impacts.

What was it you were going to say about cold? You said you had your twist on cold.

I think you probably know better than I what you think is.

The ideal timing of cold. But I know that people are different from one another and, and your archetype would handle cold easier than my archetype. So I, I may have a shorter duration.

Are you referring to like the constitutional typing? Yeah, like the, the discussion we had last time. And by the way, if you want to wrap your head around that, Avi and I talked about constitutional typing and your diet and your lifestyle based on whether you're, you run hot or run cold quite a bit. Yeah, I think you're right. I, I would say that there are definitely some people who get too much sympathetic stress in response to cold. Too much of an adrenaline norepinephrine response and almost like an over training response to cold. But I personally think too many people do like these long 10, 20 minute ice.

That's too long.

My protocol is frequent and short. So I have an ice tub outside the front door of my office and I jump in that thing like four or five times a day and I'm in there for 20 seconds to a minute just for these brief cold forays throughout the day. And I don't do a lot of the long shiver your butt off for.

Well, that's what I wanted. That, that would be my opinion too.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that every, so occasionally, especially for like chronic pain, fibromyalgia, etc. That these, you see these polar bear swimmers right out here in the San Francisco Bay. And lots of stories of people who eliminate chronic pain and joint issues through longer cold soaks. But even those, I'd see the people successfully doing those. They'll like go for a cold swim like once a week. And everything in between are these short cold exposures. Kind of like exercise. You might have one hard workout session per week, but then everything else is just kind of tune ups. And I think that's a much, much better way to do. It's more sustainable too.

Yeah. So the question is one in 5,000 people live to a hundred. Okay. We now know their genetic profiles and more so than when I first started medicine A long time ago. We know that just like in the beginning, we always thought that the, the centenarians only lived in Japan, only lived.

In the Caucuses, and only lived in Loma Linda, Sardinia.

Yeah, but, but now we know there's some people living in the inner city too. And one thing we always knew about them is that they were maybe happier. They may be socially very open and they may be eating organic, you know, organically, but they don't necessarily live very healthy lifestyles. They, some of them, you know, smoking cigars. The oldest woman in the world was smoking a cigar every day and drinking, you know, having alcohol every night.

So. And a lot of times it's not just wine. We're talking like scotch, whiskey, gin. Yeah, everything.

I mean, whatever made them happy. Okay, so that's, it's not because they lived a unique lifestyle. So then you say, okay, I have some genetic pathways that you probably are well compensated for. But my most profound observation in my entire 40 plus years was when I first got out of medical school. I did a residency and chief residency in pathology and I was blessed. I went to Einstein in the Bronx and I was blessed by having some of the oldsters that were chief of pathology when Einstein was still alive. They used to come in once a week just for fun and they used to look around the center and so I showed them.

An aorta of a 60 year old person who obviously passed away.

And it was moderately severely affected. And then I showed them another aorta of 104 year old person looking identical. It looked identical. And then I didn't say anything about it. And they said, so they analyzed it and they said oh, these are, they look, this is classical. Classical. I said, but this One is from 104 year old, it looks identical to the 60 year old. So they said well let's, let's have some fun with it. Let's, let's look at the histochemistry, let's look at the cell types, let's look at it under the electron microscope and let's do that. Let's have a fun time with this because we want to know if they're completely the same or not, or the cell types different and so on. Are the pathways different? And after months of all the data points coming together, they're identical. One of the, one of the people develops the full on bore thing that ultimately kills them at the age of 60. The other one has the full on disease 40 years later. But it's the same exact pathology, the same pathways just delayed 30, 40 years so to me that was, I thought that was an open my brain to this concept that.

If you have, if we could understand that, that gap, that 40 year gap, 30 year gap, we'd be able to have the rest of us, the rest of the 4,999 of us who aren't fortunate enough to have these pathways up front and center because, and with the genomics today, it's not difficult to organize that, that we'd be able to make a real serious dent in our lifespan because the average centenarian doesn't really have any serious medical problems until and the age of 93.

Whereas the average person passing away in the late 70s is already sick in the 60s, in their 60s.

That's interesting. Did you actually do that kind of testing on your patients? Like do you do genomics testing to see what someone's risk is?

Yes.

And there's actual markers that you can pull up that literally translate to so for increased lifespan despite lifestyle.

Right. So we know what they are, you know, they're, they deal with, with senescence, they, they deal with, with insulin sensing, with glucose metabolism, cell repair mechanisms. And are you pro inflammatory in your genomics? Do you tend to be on the pro inflammatory side? Do you have mutations of TNF, alpha, IL6, IL1 receptor? Are you in that direction or not? Are you protected against autoimmunity versus not so.

So so this is not a single mode, a single or a single gene that you're looking at and sets a cluster of genetic factors that would dictate that the fewer of them that you present, the more equipped you likely are for lifespan.

Because for example, let's say you have multiple, there are multiple detoxification pathways. Right. But our epigenome is now bombarded with toxificants which just completely bombarded. So if you have the normal amount of, and you may have a little snip in, in the glutathione pathways, for example, so you don't have your full expression of your master antioxidant and detoxificant, then you're going to run into trouble faster.

Yeah.

Now everybody's got heavy metals, everybody does. Everyone has toxic against pesticides. I mean if you want to measure it, you can. It doesn't help me that much.

In the treatment because we use the heavy metals.

As the most tested and the most true.

Types of data points for the last 50 years. If you get rid of them, you will feel better, you will have less coronary disease, you'll have less dementia.

Yeah.

When you get rid of Them, but.

And, and you, you from a heavy metal standpoint, because we, we had fish last night.

Right.

And like, I ordered a poke bowl for lunch today. You don't, you don't totally avoid them from a food chain standpoint, but do you yourself engage in regular chelation therapy?

Yes.

Like ozone?

Well, ozone is. Makes chelation more efficient.

Okay, but it wouldn't count as chelation.

It doesn't count as chile. Yeah, that's right.

What do you do for collation?

Well, you use the different formulas, but you use a chelating agent like EDTA.

Okay.

And you chelate it out. It takes 45 minutes, an hour. And, and you do it.

What's that. What's that mean? 45 minutes to an hour.

You can do it orally. Oral. Oral chelation works, but it takes a much longer time.

Okay. All right. Okay. So, by the way, this ozone, if they're. You're watching the video, you'll see that they've pulled the tubes out of my arm and all the blood's gone back into me at this point.

Right, right.

Okay. And what's that bucket look like? I can't quite see without craning my neck. But did it accumulate? Good. Can we get a picture of that on the camera?

Well, the less of it. The less of it, the cleaner you.

Are, so that's good. I don't know. It doesn't look like I have very much. And it's all clear.

No, And. And heavy metals would. The heavy metals would have a color.

Yeah. Okay, and then what's this test that she's doing right now on my. On my fingertips?

She's going to give us this. The. The. Your blood sugar.

Why'd my blood sugar go up so much during that treatment? It was at 73. Now it's at 111.

Oh, it's because you. You had your. You had your perfect amino bars.

Oh, that's right. You did give me a bar. Because you don't want your blood sugar to be low during.

No, you don't. Because.

The rapidity of. Of, of the oxidative burst is, Is muted by having a normal blood sugar level.

And this clear glass slide that she just held up to the blood, that's. That's a repeat of the live blood cell.

Yes.

And you just look at that under a microscope.

Yes.

And you showed it directly sends it to your phone.

Yeah, I have the shots on my phone, but we. I just took a photograph of the. Of the microscope. Okay, I can send it to you. I can send your photo.

Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes at Ben Greenfield Life.

Yeah, because you're clean. There's nothing to. I can show you some things that before and after, and I can send them to you before and after that. You can clearly see the difference between.

What the average, what many of us are walking around with, because we're not, we're not. We don't have a regular sauna routine. We don't have a regular exercise routine. We don't have a regular caloric restriction routine or time restricted, time restricted eating routine. We don't do the X, Y and we, we're not on any. Oh, I take a few vitamin C tablets once in a while. How come I had my. How come I needed a bypass surgery? I mean, I eat a banana every day. I mean that it's not going to work anymore.

I have my oatmeal, my whole grains. So the, it's, it is kind of funny though, because I, I'm glad my blood is looking good and my effluent is looking good because I just literally got back from two weeks of cycling in Italy, eating cake for breakfast, gelato for lunch, and pasta for dinner. But I was also riding my bike like 30, 35 miles a day in the sunshine, you know, 30, 000 steps a day. And so I was, I was, I was fine from a caloric standpoint. I think I lost like seven pounds. Now, what's this, this IV that they just put into me after finishing up? This is, it says energy on it. That must be good.

It's a nutritive. It's a complex nutritive drip.

What's that mean?

It, it has vitamin C at its core and relatively low dose. And then it has probably 20 micronutrients in it.

Low dose enough to where I'm not going to be doing the diarrhea test today.

No, no, no. Okay.

Well, we just took a little break here after ozone and so before we get into these new needles that I have in my arm. Avi, what was that? Why'd you have me collect my urine in the bathroom just now?

Well, we wanted to rule in and rule out whether you had mold biotoxin in your urine. So it's a standard test for mold and it'll test for ochratoxin, aflatoxin, gliotoxin, a few, half a dozen other mold species which are the most toxic, and then we'll match it to what the new level of the complement cascade number is.

How often is it that when you do a test on some of these Days they're presenting with high levels of, of these toxins.

I think the, the estimate would be in the general population that around two thirds of us are walking around with toxic mold in our systems in a, in an environment which is wet and cold like San Francisco is. So it comes primarily from water damage. You can have a leak in, in, in the desert, you know.

In Phoenix, and still get mold toxicity. Except there's a few parameters that have to be important. One is, am I genetically susceptible to having. Once I, once I see mold and once my body is exposed, that I can't get rid of it on my own. And you have that genetic susceptibility. And so do I really. Now, I, I didn't have a single MALD symptom in my body until I was in my late 60s. Wow. I have a genetic susceptibility. So it was sort of like an area under the curve, and then it.

Reaches like a threshold.

Yeah. And then you say something is funny, something's wrong, and I'm just not sure what weight is difficult to take, you know, to, to lose more, more easily. That is more difficult than before. Sleep is a bit. Patterning is a little bit off. You measure it. It's the same type of number that you had. And then you have to use binders.

Yeah.

These. Charcoal or ozone.

Right. Ozone could also make it down.

But again, the, the real, the real direct approach is to take a binder. Okay, gotcha. And it's not super difficult. They're tasteless. But it's black. It's like black water, we call it. And you take it every day for.

Usually for the treatment you call black water.

I mean, it's, it's charcoal, but.

Okay.

It's a quicksilver. Makes the number one product the. Okay, yeah, I have that product, the ultra binder. And we. You use it and you will sort of feel. When you have mold in your body, you'll feel something going on on the CNS side after you take a dose. But it's mild.

Yeah.

And then eventually you will feel better.

And do you recommend combining a binder like that with protocols like sauna, coffee, enema, trampolining, or lymph circulation, the type of things that, that help. Once that binder is in the system for the liver to actually.

Yes.

Process and remove everything via the skin, via the stool, etc.

It's as, it's as efficient as, as the binder. So. But the binder is, is unique in its ability to attract the mold out at the same time. You have to be able to be pooping. Yeah, because otherwise it just recirculates.

Yeah.

Okay, but, but the sauna, the exercise, the trampolining and sauna is probably the most single most important one.

When someone does a urine test like that, how quickly do you get results back?

Oh, we should have the results back by the middle of next week.

Okay, interesting. That'll be, that'll be fascinating to delve into. And by the way, I'll publish all these results and photos and things like that on the website if you guys want to take a look. I'll put it all. BenGreenfieldLife.com Anatara all right, so now I've still got this Energy IV. The B complex is going into my body with the vitamin C. But now there's like a, is this like a laser in my other arm right now?

So here, my goal here when I started this around 12 years or so ago, was to try to find fundamental ways of, of activating our energy cycle. And oxygen is one. That's why ozone has such an important role. NAD is nad. It's a separate, it's a separate system. But light energy, or photo modulation as it's called, is something that's underserved. I mean, the public doesn't know very much about it. And this is, the device on your left is called the Weber laser. And it's from north of Frankfurt in Germany.

It's quite the machine.

And it's got, it's, it's, it's probably the best studied laser device. And there's two, two or three different components to it. You have the, the different frequencies, typically between 500 and 1,000 nanometers, but you have red.

Blue, green, yellow and UV light and infrared. So you'll get all of those. So in what we call a rainbow, a rainbow IV session. And it interacts with things that have a.

It photo modulates, so it interacts with the yellow in the vitamin C and the magnesium in the drips. So it activates the I, the, the energy drip More.

More. So the way this works, like right now it's plugged into one different light. And then you'll shift it to a different light.

15 minutes for each of the five, and it'll be over in an hour and 15 minutes.

Okay.

And we, we try our best to, to use this regularly in, in a few different populations. One is cancer populations. The tumor cells are typically sensitive to heat shock protein activation. And heat shock proteins are activated by the laser.

When you first went through medical school, did you think you'd be getting done all this kind of, you know, lesser known protocols that you don't see a lot of doctors doing. Like. What do you think attracted all this?

Well, I come from a heavy European background. I was born in Israel, but my parents are European. There was no question that I would probably seek to do something like medicine because it was good, it was a good thing for a good Jewish boy to do. I got into law school first and when I found out what lawyers did, I said no, no way. Went to medical school and then really was on the outside looking in saying everybody seems to really know what they want and I'm just sort of going to observe things for a while and, and it took me a while to find a niche, but I wanted to do it in a European style. So the Europeans, the, the old German doctors, now this is after World War II, then, they're not high in everyone's list, but they, they were always known for outstanding medical care. And they trained in, in anatomy first. They had full, really serious anatomical training and then they also did a year of pathology. So that's what, why I, I got, I wanted to mimic that even though I did three full years of pathology. But, so I wanted to be a little bit different but more old style because I, I truly believe that my general practitioner actually, you know, gave me a shot in my butt once for pneumonia and, and he actually came to the house and I like that idea.

A shot in your butt?

Yeah, penicillin. He gave me a penicillin injection and it came to my house and had a little bag and, and that was all gone by the time I, I went to medical school. That was not done anymore. So I wanted a little bit of the older flavor and concept that something old was fundamentally not as good as something brand new came into really is fundamental. You know, has been so fundamental the last several decades in understanding how little genomics has changed the world. It's going to change the world will take a long time and how little.

The, the brand new technologies always may be incremental, but they're not fundamental. So, so a lot of the, A lot of the, of, of the reasons we ultimately use, what we use is because they're completely safe, they can be stacked easily. So you're going to be treated with five or six things, but they're all coherent and they're convergent with your systems. We're not just only detoxing you, we're not just only oxygenating you, we're not just only talking, trying to talk to.

To any individual organ. So then when I Ran a heart. So I was trained there. Then I went to Yale for medicine and then cardiology at Hopkins. That was the pinnacle of my academic career. I stayed there for 12 years, published a lot of work, became an immunologist as well as a cardiologist and had a big lab and we were expert, the world's experts in myocarditis.

I mean there may be some groups in Germany that will tell me otherwise, but I think we were one of the best people in myocarditis. And we.

What's myocarditis?

Myocarditis is now in everyone's tongue because of the COVID induced myocarditis. Because Covid we knew from the very minute that it came to New York.

That the virus had a tropism, had a magnetism to the heart.

Okay, so myocarditis would be like inflammation of heart tissue.

Inflammation of heart tissue in this case due to a virus. It's not directly due to the virus.

It's a reaction to the viral proteins on the heart surface, on the heart cell surface that then induces an autoimmune reaction. So the first paper I ever wrote to the ACAM members was on lookout for post viral myocarditis, particularly in your kids and the college age students. And understand that it's going to go away, more likely, except when it doesn't, then it's very serious. So then. And so I was doing transplants, I was doing invasive cardiology, I was catheterizer and so on. But I went to the top and I felt what it felt like. And that is an outstanding experience for anyone in any profession to go to the, to the best and study with the best. But then it was time to move from Baltimore to the Bay Area because my wife was from here and I ran a heart institute and the heart institute had global centers, big, big data, big clinical trials. And we had a lot of centers in Germany. And when I went to Germany, I realized the hospitals were identical, but the pharmacies and the shops and the towns were completely different. The pharmacies were run by equivalents of PhD pharmacists here, like Pharm D's? Yeah, here every pharmacist there was trained like that. And they were equally as trained in pharmaceuticals as they were in homeopathic and herbal medicine.

And why is that important in pharmacy?

Because, you know, aspirin is not a pharmaceutical. Hello, it's an herbal remedy. You know the Kirk, you know, a lot of the anti inflammatories, a lot, a lot of the fundamental chemicals.

The Sulforaphanes, the phenols, the, the ones that affect multiple pathways at the same time. It's not a targeted, single assay, targeted development of a pharmaceutical entity that needs to target something to be very, very, very specific, more of a global impact. They're all, they're all natural, so they understand that and they understand that. So they don't have a problem of, of over, of over, over prescribing antibiotics there. They don't give antibiotics for viral illness. They give you 10, 20 different things that you can use. So I had that experience and, and then I was still professor at, I was made professor of medicine at UCSF as an honor, as a privilege. And I took it and I taught for 16 years and then realized that none of my felt, none of my cardiology fellows were listening to anything I talked about in integrative cardiology. They were just not interested because they were overwhelmingly doing the technical part, which is appropriate. But they wouldn't do something like order COQ10 for someone with heart failure. They wouldn't, they wouldn't treat, you know, metabolic syndrome. They didn't even, they wouldn't want to understand what it was. So a few of them sent their patients to me. I thought this would become an integrative cardiology center. And that's what I thought when I first opened it up. But they never got their patients back, so they stopped referring them to us.

Why wouldn't, doctor, why wouldn't doctors like that just implement these same protocols themselves versus sending folks?

I think that that's the big, that's the big problem that we see across every specialty. It requires you to, to learn new things. And I don't think that the doctors today have a problem with that, but they have, have a bias that their things are, are much, much, much stronger, much better. And, and if it's not the case that they don't want to go close to that. So sometimes they have a family urgency or an emergency, and they have to learn it through their mom, through their dad, through their children. And then they come over. But the, the guys who, the, the women and men that come over frequently are anesthesia people, er, ER docs and family practitioners.

Those are the three types of doctors that wind up beginning to migrate towards.

The type of practice that you have. And then dermatologists too, because they're into beauty, and beauty is from the inside out. You have to then figure it out. And, and, and, but the, the gut doctors don't. And even though the gut biome, everyone knows about biome and they, they don't come over. Cardiologists don't come over because they're electricians, they're plumbers, they're doing what they need to do and they're doing it the best in the world. But that's it.

Is there an actual name for what you do? Is it just holistic wellness?

I think it's called, it's called sometimes integrative medicine. It's now the new name du jour is functional medicine.

Okay, okay, got it. So what kind of patients do you actually see? Is this mostly people who are sick? Are these like the Bay area anti aging longevity enthusiast CEOs, these like celebrities or a mix of everything?

So we, we enjoy the celebrities a lot and we enjoy the CEOs a lot. And you went to dinner with one of them last night. And we, we like healthy people once in a while to break the monotony of folks. So this ultimately was supposed to be what I skipped in my story was that we, we then started the world's first non profit pharmaceutical company which was for disease of poverty. So we had malaria, we produced the artemisin and E. Coli and we have.

The major source of the anti malarial drug in the world is now produced in the way that we produced it with Sanofi events.

Is that hydroxychloroquine?

No, this is artemisinin I tested.

Okay. Wormwood.

Yeah, yeah.

Grows like weeds in my backyard.

No longer grows, now it's in E. Coli. So we genetically modify, we genetically.

Bacteria make artemisin now.

Now they do. And so Sanofi Aventus is now in charge of that. But we, we organize that and we, we have a new chemical entity for cholera, diarrhea and some other diseases that we, that we did. But, but that took us all over the world, into Asia, in South Asia in particular, studied with the gurus and so on and had some more exposure to the different forms and realized that certain, like, you know, everyone knows that ayurvedic medicine has archetypes. Everybody knows that there's certain types, right?

Yeah.

So which type are you?

We talked a lot about that in our last podcast because you had me set up on a whole diet based on my, my constitution.

So the, the, so the concept of here, as you know, we're not going to do one thing. We're going to, we're going to, we're going to tackle the toxic load that we're all exposed to in an elegant, safe, but multi layered approach. And Ayurvedic doesn't fit that. So The Chinese versions of.

Archetypal medicines do. So they do transcend different. Different lineages.

What do you mean by that? What would be the main differentiating characteristic between. I think it was a kind of Chinese approach.

I don't know, but they don't. But Ayurvedic medicine doesn't play well with other. With other kids in the sandbox. It just. You're either going to go that way and go and do it, do the best possible, go to Ayurvedic specialist. But when you start mixing pharmaceuticals and start mixing, you know, for serious illnesses, it doesn't. And you start using natural remedies like curcumin, resveratrolophyllopoic acids, all these antioxidants and these master regulators. It doesn't work well. It doesn't work as well as it should. So either you do that or. Or then you have to go to another form. So we tried it and it just didn't work well. So in my hands, it didn't work well.

Yeah. Now, you talked about German medicine. There's a lot of these European biological medicine clinics, like Paracelsus is perhaps the most famous. There's another one I took a group on a fantastic health tour of for a couple of weeks out in the Swiss Mountains, called the Swiss Mountain Retreat. Are those any different than what you do here? Like, can they still do stuff in Europe that you can't do over here?

No, no more. It's just the idea, the concept of.

You could also say traveling all that way and sitting on the airplane makes it feel more special.

Well, I mean, they're good at it. You know, they also emphasize things that we're just coming to terms with now. They emphasize detoxification. They emphasize that the first. The first doctor you see there is a dentist because the hidden infections in the. In the oral cavity are exceptionally common.

Yeah, I interviewed a doctor from over in that area, Germany, I believe. Dr. Dom. And there is a big bigger belief, at least over there, that disease begins in the mouth. A lot of times over here in functional medicine here, the disease begins in the gut. Arguably the mouth is the gut, the beginning of the gut. But I think a lot of people don't realize that. I've personally been doing a lot of work with a dentist in Phoenix who's done bacterial profiling of my mouth and does a lot of repeat labs and considers that a lot of disease, heart disease, Alzheimer's, et cetera, can be detected by bacteria in the mouth and also via things like silver sprays and oil pulling and different medical techniques and even biomechanical adjustments can, can be fixed by starting with the mouth and then moving down from there.

I couldn't say it any better. You said it very elegantly.

Do you have dentists that you work with here in San Francisco or did you do all that work yourself here also?

No, no, we don't. We, we don't. We have the stable of biological dentists is the name. So the biological dentists can either handle the, the infected root canals, the infected gums and so on. But also then there's biological dentists that focus on the airway.

Okay, got it. Also, they're also called a holistic dentist.

Right, right.

Well, biological holistic dentists. Now what about, you know, you, you talked briefly with me. I don't even know if we were, if we were on air yet or not, as you were drawing my blood. About your ability to also get some early detection of cancer, is that also something that you're testing for here?

Yeah, well, we're been very interested in that because the first patient that when I first opened up that asked me their opinion was the first employee of the non profit that we ran and she was first diagnosed with stage 4.

Colon cancer and said, what should I do? And I said, well, I promise you, eventually we'll figure that out. I just didn't know. That was 15 years ago.

And.

And to today.

The field is now ready to be, to be completely changed. So we've known for years now, probably about 10 years here of the concept of liquid biopsies. Liquid, Liquid biopsies are the, the reality. The fact that tumor cells that are in the body are spilled over into the blood circulation.

Most people believe, the ones that have studied it for longer times than I have is that the circulatory, the circulating tumor cells predate when you can find the tumor in, in an image. That is, it's one of the earlier findings, but I, I don't know whether that's true or not. I, I know that there's a lot of, there's a lot of reasons to believe that that's the case, but it's, it's counterintuitive. You say, well, even if it was in the blood, maybe it has nothing to do with the, with the, with the tissue itself. Maybe they're unrelated. Well, they're not unrelated. The, the, the. And in the blood you can, you can divvy out the, separate out the tumor cells as well as the, as the conductors. The conductors are called the tumor stem cells. You can culture them out and you can study their biology and you can study their sensitivities. And again, is a whole world there except to say that you do get a numerical value. Do you have them? Yes or no? And if you have them, how much, how many of them per unit of blood do you have? Well, that's generation one. And the other generation is. Well, I, I have.

Right now that works right now is I have a tumor. So that, you know that they, they run genomics on, on tumors themselves. They run genomics to, to express whether the immunotherapies, the newer version of chemotherapies that are targeting immune, the immune systems will, which ones will be effective.

So they take the, the same amount of tissue as that. It's a slice on a slide. Study the mu, the DNA mutations there and then look for those same mutations in the blood and, and then track it. So for example, if you're on chemotherapy, why wait three months to get your pet CT scan when you can get, get a blood sample every month or every, every, every three weeks to see whether you're going in the right direction? Namely, are your tumor specific DNA that is in your tumor in your blood going down, the blood levels going down? Because you know, most people with traditional chemo have complications. Yeah, they're not easy to tell whether I'm getting better or not. So this is going to transform. So this is going to be phase two and we're in it. So we're beta testing two of these companies and they're allowing us to draw the bloods as often as we please.

And it's as simple as a blood draw.

It is a blood draw. It's a blood draw not only for.

Cancer detection, but for cancer progression monitoring.

This is for progression. So for the tech, the test we send off to Europe is for the detection and progression and biology. But in the future they'll be able to use it for detection. But that's, that's going to, this is all going to go through fda. Everything I'm talking about will go through fda. It's going to take its sweet time. In the meantime.

The, before they get to, before they get to detection, which is the largest market.

They'Ll have to go through a lot, a lot more testing.

So right now someone can't go in and do this cancer detection screening.

No, you can only do the screening test for the company that we send it off to Europe for is called the RGCC company and you have to be a member and so on. But that's pretty widely known in the United states and widely known and also widely criticized because. Because the oncologists don't believe in the test results.

Now because you can, you can have a number and obviously if, if the number correlates to you having a tumor, then it's. Obviously it's true. But what happens when you have a number but you can't find the tumor anywhere? And it tells you that it's lung, it tells you that it's colon, it tells you that it's. It's prostate. It tells you.

Yeah. So even before something like a full body MRI.

That's correct. So you know, the full body MRIs are limited to 3, 4 millimeters. So you can't always smaller than that.

It's not going to pick up. But a liquid biopsy could detect.

That's correct.

That's interesting.

So this is going to.

Seems like that could be transformative.

Transformative for the environment, for the entire industry, but also for follow up.

And how long do you think we are out from these being widely available as testing?

I think it's going to be about. Well, there's another one coming in, coming forward in through fda. It's going to be. It'll come in stages, but it'll be from one to three years.

Yeah. Wow. Interesting.

But it's very interesting and it's very specific. I mean these are tumor specific DNA mutations that are belong to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow. You have just heard part one of.

Ben's discussion and in person experience with Dr. Avi at Anantara Medicine. Since Ben and Dr. Avi spent a lot of time together at Anatara, we decided to make this a two part episode.

We will post part two of this episode on our next podcast publish date.