Non-Surgical Knee Fix, Youthful Muscle Building, Zenjections, Peptides for long-COVID

My name is Ben Greenfield and on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life.

Podcast, you have more bacteria and yeast in your gut than there are star in this, in the sky, in the colon, but then in the small intestine, it's supposed to be nothing. When the bacteria kind of crawl up into the small intestine, it's small and it can't take being distended. So then what we do is we do a trio test. We look to see if there are bacteria and if they're methane.

The trio is a breath test, right?

It's a breath test. And then based upon that, we'll do potentially some antibiotics and then we will potentially give them some peptides. And the peptides would be like maybe an immune peptide and LL37 in parallel to that. Then we may give them a diet that focuses on avoiding fermentable foods like specific carbohydrate diet or a low fodmap diet.

Faith, family, fitness, health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the show.

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And you'll automatically get that 20% off free shipping on any US orders. Over 75 bucks and free returns. All right, you want to know my secret? Meat rub weapon in the kitchen that caramelizes meat, boosts nitric oxide levels and is full of potent adaptogens and antioxidants and even a clinical dose of cordyceps mushroom, which is one of the most powerful mushrooms you can get your hands on for lung performance and overall energy levels. Well, I use this stuff called organifi red juice. I blend it up with salt and black pepper and use it as a meat rub and a steak rub. I write about this in my cookbook. It's a game changer. And it wasn't even made for being a meat rub. It was honestly made just like mix in some water or blend up in some coconut milk and give you this natural caffeine free boost of energy that unlike these overpriced juices that you get from the refrigerator at the overpriced health food store. This stuff is pennies on the $100% USDA certified organic. Super simple to make with no shopping and chop and clean up afterwards. They've even got these handy on the go stick packs. It's all high quality freeze dried berries, extremely low in sugar, dairy free, soy free, vegan, non GMO 100% organic whole food, USDA organic certified gluten free. This stuff just works. It's a freaking blood building, energy enhancing nutrient packed powder. And did I mention it tastes great as a meat rub. You get 20% off. Go to Organifi.com that's Organifi with an I.com Ben and that will get you your 20% off of anything from Organifi. But may I recommend to you as your superfood powder sommelier that you grab this red stuff because it's pretty amazing. Try it out. Organifi.com Ben Matt Cook is, I think one of the most repeated guests on my podcast of all time. Dr. Matthew Cook. Now I'm going to link to all of his fascinating previous episodes if you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com YoungMuscle WhyBenGreenfieldLife.com YoungMusCLE because Matt took my knee over the past year and a half from hobbling, swollen and barely being able to run, walk, squat, play tennis, play pickleball, anything. And now it's at 90% and continually getting better. He uses exosomes, he uses stem cells, he uses placental matrix, he uses nerve hydrodissection. He has all these crazy tricks up his sleeve but but has a really really cool perspective from a regenerative medicine standpoint on muscles, ligaments, tendons, joints and maintaining this so called young muscle and even combines it with things like vagus nerve resets and other combinations that help to treat not only the muscles in the joint but also the brain. Now if I happen to sound like I have the voice of God on today's podcast, or more specifically a smooth, buttery, best podcasting voice ever. Because I do have, I think as we were talking about earlier, Matt, not only a voice for radio but also both of us have a nice face for radio. Yeah, it's probably because of that weird needle you just stuck into my neck. And I would be curious as I'm sure my listeners would also be about what this thing is that you do with the vagus nerve. So what is that that we just did?

So that is something called a vagus nerve hydrodissertion. The traditional thing that I do for people with PTSD and trauma or people with chronic nerve pain, especially in the head and neck, is I will take a needle and put it in the area where the fight or flight nerves are in the front of the neck, turns out the rest and relax nerves are right next to those and that's called the main rest and relaxed nerve that goes to your heart and lungs and intestines that comes from your brain is called the vagus nerve. And so what I do is I take that needle and I come close to the vagus nerve and then I put a little fluid of growth factors around the vagus nerve. And what it does is it tends to support, seems to turn it on. You feel kind of your voice starts to get rich in. And part of that is because one of the branches of the vagus nerves goes to your voice box. And so I did that kind of selfishly just to improve the vocal tone and rocky roots.

Right. So when you bring the band back and if that went over everybody's head, check out rockyrootsmusic.com where Matt and I have an EP of an album that we recorded. We're actually recording at Matt's office, passing a microphone back and forth. So this is probably going to be the least you ever hear me interrupt a podcast guest, since we are doing the mic passing. But anyways, this whole vagus nerve approach, I feel a combination of super relaxed, de stressed, kind of Zen. After doing it, almost. I would love to test my HRV right now because I would imagine it's pretty high. What would be the reason, besides just sheer curiosity on my part, which is why I did it, that people would do a procedure like this.

Our primary trajectory of using this procedure is people with PTSD and trauma. And for those people, we are rebooting and resetting the fight or flight nerves. But then we'll also treat the vagus nerve. One of the things I started to see is sometimes people would lose weight after I did it because they have less visceral fat. Sometimes I would see people, they would say, oh, all my abdominal pain went away. Or people will start to say, I just start to feel better in my intestines. People with chronic pain in their intestines often will start to get better. And we were doing that with numbing medicine. So I'm using Ropivacaine, which is a local anesthetic. And the concept of that is to turn those nerves off. Kind of like you're turning a computer off and rebooting it. And that was why I actually called my company Bioreset in the very beginning, because we're doing this fight or flight reset and kind of turning the computer off, resetting you to the factory default settings and turning it back on. However, we eventually started finding that people would do better if we rebooted both rest and relax and fight or Flight. And so then that's when we started doing that. And I noticed people did so well. I realized I put growth factors around every nerve in the body. And so it kind of made sense to me what would happen if I started putting plasma and growth factors around the vagus nerve. And sure enough, that is a way of not blocking it to get it better, but putting growth factors around it to get it better. And then almost 100% of the time, what people will say is, oh, my voice starts to feel a little bit more rich. I start to feel a little bit of a vibration on my chest. And people will. It's a fairly repeatable sense of wellness and calm.

So I've heard of the thing called the stellate ganglion nerve block before. Is this the same thing as that?

I'll get into the weeds a little bit. The fight or flight nerves in the neck, in the middle of the neck, basically kind of between C4 and C6, tend to run in between the two deepest muscles in the front of the neck. Those muscles, the superficial one, is called longus capitis, and the deep one is called longus coli. The fight or flight nerves, tend to run primarily in that plane at that level. However, they can also be a little bit in the muscles there, and then eventually they come down and run in the front of your vertebrae in the thoracic area. When you stick a needle into that fascial plane, when you do a stellate ganglion block, we block those nerves. Often when you stick a needle in that plane, the fluid will shoot over by the carotid artery and go and kind of get the vagus nerve. What I started doing is intentionally going over there because it's very safe for me. When I create a fluid, I'm just sticking my needle, tracking my needle in the fluid, and then going over and putting it kind of in the corner pocket where the vagus nerve lives.

Okay. And you'd think, I mean, for people listening, they're like, whoa, needles in my neck. Like, even for me, as I was laying there for a brief second, I was like, wait, this is, like, I felt really vulnerable. And then you have this nice, soothing approach where you kind of, like, talk me into a state of relaxation, but then also, you don't feel anything. Like, honestly, all I felt was just, like, your fingers around my neck.

Right. But I would say of. Of things to do that could be just about the most advanced procedure, because I'm right next to your carotid artery, and I do.

Which I could see on the ultrasound by the Way I can see right.

There by the hole.

Yeah. So I don't sneeze, Matt.

I do five or six big procedures on the neck almost every day since like 2001. So it's something that I do a lot. We say we're starting a teaching organization to teach basically everything that we do. Hydrodissection from around nerves, arteries, veins, every joint in the body, fascial planes. And it's a fairly substantial journey to get to a point where you feel comfortable knowing where a needle is to be able to do that.

Yeah, it's kind of like any surgery. You'd want somebody to do it who's done a lot of procedures before, especially when you're playing around in that area where there's a lot of sensitive nerves vessels. So this might seem like a far cry from regenerative medicine lower down, like in a joint, for example. And we might be kind of working backwards here, but. But do you actually combine this with, let's say, work on a knee or a hip or a shoulder? Is there any crossover effect into the joints?

So the crossover is, what I like to do is get a sense of where are people in their pain cycle? So some people will come in and have been in long term pain, and their central nervous system and their spinal cord are sort of upregulated. From a pain perspective, yes. In those patients, they tend to do really well with a stellate ganglion block. And so often what will happen is people will come and let's say they've got debilitating back pain.

And they've been in pain for quite a while. For those patients, often as part of their journey of three or four days, I'll do a stellate ganglion block on one side on one day, on the other side on another day, the right stellate ganglion resets blood flow to the right side of the brain. Okay. And the right vagus nerve comes from the right basically side of your brain stem, and it goes to your liver and kind of the right side of your intestinal tract. And I just recently, a couple of weeks ago, had a woman come in that had abdominal pain, and I did the stellar stellate. And she goes, oh, all the pain in the right side of my abdomen is gone, but the left side's still here. So that's crazy. The next day we. We did the other side. And so then the left vagus comes from the left brainstem.

Yeah.

And so. And so on.

Yeah.

Have you ever.

I mentioned hrv, but have you ever actually had anybody either in real time measure their heart rate variability or track their nervous system response at some point, quantified manner or afterwards track it and see that it went up.

Oh, yeah, all the time. It almost always goes up when you track it. And what I tell people is that mindfulness and meditation and everything good that you've ever heard of, that anybody has ever talked about on your podcast, fundamentally, at some level drives you into higher levels of heart rate variability. And all of those are techniques that drive you in so you can experience and sort of maintain a connected state that is a quote unquote, a rest and relaxed state.

Right.

This is just one more tool.

That will drive you into a rest and relax state. And I like to say that you leave some breadcrumbs along the way, and after having gone through the experience a lot of times, then that just as a way for you to help to reconnect and for some people just to realize it's possible to get into a kind of a deep, connected, calm, coherent state. And then often once that happens, like, I did a selling ganglion block for somebody yesterday and I said, how's it going? And she goes, well, my fiance's flight was canceled and he couldn't show up here. But I was totally fine with it.

Yeah.

And so I was kind of stuck.

Yeah. Change the name to call, like, the Zenjection or something like that.

The Zen Injection. That's what we're going to call it from now on.

Yeah, I love it. Okay. So I mentioned that I was pretty hobbled up. I was actually almost not, like, depressed, but super disappointed. Like two years ago when I felt like I was getting old. Like, my knee, I couldn't play tennis. I hadn't yet discovered the sport of pickleball, but there's no way I would have been able to play that. I couldn't run. Bike riding hurt, couldn't squat, heavy, couldn't deadlift, couldn't lunge, and going up and down stairs hurt. And I went to, like, three different orthopods. They all told me that I was probably going to have to get surgery, that I probably had arthritis and that my knee was pretty much shot and that they might be able to scope it. That might help, but no guarantees. And then I came down and saw you. You did some stuff on it. And then here I am, like, you know, we're what, like 10 months out now?

And.

And I'm doing all like, I'm running, I'm playing tennis, I'm playing pickleball, I'm squatting, I'm deadlifting. I'M going up and down stairs. Basically, my knee. I can tell, like, something happened to it in the past, but it's not an issue at all. Walk people through, like, what you actually did.

I'm. I'm going to do something even better. Hopefully. What happened is, is in addition to that, Ben was a hardcore endurance athlete who was a lot of years competitive for a lot of years. And so when I first met you, at the very beginning, you had an effusion in that knee. And that knee, I explained, if you want an infusion, so you had water on the knee. And so you. When I first met you, I pulled out 30ccs of fluid. And so that you. You had what's called synovitis, which was inflammation of the joint lining. And as a result of that, you were just. And the body's. The body, you damaged your meniscus a little bit, and you damaged some of the ligaments in your knee a little bit. And so your body has this idea. I got a great idea. Let's put some more WD40 in there. And so the body says it starts to secrete some fluid, and the knee is kind of a sealed joint. Next thing you know, you got a little water on your knee. But you're tougher than the average bear. And you just kind of trained through that.

Oh, I know I trained to. I raced it like I did one Ironman triathlon in Hawaii, where going into the race, my knee was like the size of a softball. And I just taped the hell out of it and hammered on it for 12 hours. There was, like, teeth gritting pain, like, just on ibuprofen. I took a Valium that night, went to bed, and I would do that kind of stuff, like, every few months, right?

So then you're gonna. You're gonna get some excess wear and tear. And then when you put. When your body starts to make a lot of fluid in there, it starts to get inflammatory. And so then that was going on. And when you do that, then you can cause damage and inflammation at every level. And so the title of our talk was muscle ligament tendon fascia.

Yeah, Joint.

The young muscle.

We changed it to young muscles. And Zen injections.

Yeah, injections.

And so then you came in in a super, super inflamed state. You tore your mcl. All of the nerves around your knee were super painful. So your. Your peroneal nerve was super painful. You had a huge baker cyst, which is fluid in the back of the knee. Bakers used to lean into the thing to pound the dough and then they.

That's why it's called it.

That's why. And what happened is they would kind of tear their meniscus, and then there's a little hole basically between their gas rack and their hamstring, and fluid would put pop out. And so that would happen.

I thought it was because it looks like you have a cinnamon roll on the back of your knee kind of after Baker's. Almost like Mad Hatter's disease was because people used to dye the hats. Okay.

What happens is that when you're. When you run in real hard or take some trauma, you can get inflammation in your bone marrow. And so you had a little. You had bone marrow edema. And so bone marrow edema is super, super painful, which is why you were hobbling around in a lot of pain.

Yeah.

And you had a little bit of an osteochondral defect, which is basically where you've lost cartilage that is between the cartilage. Basically between the cartilage and the bone. And the reason for that is. Is when you have edema in the bone marrow, then the bone marrow is what's giving all of the nutrition that leaks across the bone to support that cartilage. So then when you start, when you get inflammation in the bone marrow, then it can't make all the growth factors that keep everybody happy.

But thank God for kratom and weed, because I could still work out with the former and still sleep at night with the latter. So I was pretty much good to go.

Pretty much shut down pain. And the one thing that I would never take away from you is working out, because I don't know what you would do.

Just be bouncing off the walls.

So then what I did was I. And so then, you know, there's a variety of ways to fix bone marrow lesions. Probably the one that makes the most sense is to treat bone marrow with bone marrow. And so we pulled some bone marrow out of your hip and then spun a needle inside the bone and put some bone marrow in there.

Was that the one that's called intraosseous needling. It's almost like. Like aerating a lawn where, like, drilling holes into the bone, patching that up with bone marrow. And then the cartilage apparently regrows in response to that.

Yeah, yeah. And your cartilage is about 60, 70% better, but it's not 100 perfect. There's a hint of an osteocarb. Osteochondral defect, but it's way better than it was. I treated all of the ligaments I hydrodissected, which is putting fluid around those nerves. I treated the joint, I pulled all the fluid out, treated the joint. And I think that this is kind of a testament of one of those cases. You know, a lot of times people come and you. You have these heroic experiences where somebody has some big problem and you kind of fix it in. One time, your knee was in super bad shape and things were not looking good. And then I did that and it was a slow recovery. And then I took you to Mexico twice and gave you stem cells and you just doggedly kept at it. And today I treated you again. Treated a couple ligaments, treated the joint. I pulled all the fluid out of your baker cyst. So now we're going to call you a baker Baker Ben. Yeah, I pulled fluid out of the front of the joint. I said, I said, how much fluid am I gonna pull out? And I. Ben goes 35ccs. And then I thought. And we were thinking about the over under on that. And then I, I thought, I'm not gonna take it over under because it's. It's within like 1cc. I don't know why I didn't. So I just didn't even say anything. And then it was literally 35. You took a picture, didn't you?

I'll put in the showers. People want see the nasty yellow fluid that you can pull out of a knee. And, you know, you talked about doggedly keeping at it. I should mention that at the same time that we were doing all of this, I met and interviewed Ben Patrick, the knees over toes guy. And I started doing knees over toes lunges. I started doing reverse hyperextensions. I started doing a lot of clamshell and external rotator work. I started doing some of his, like deep squats, but unloaded, where your knees are actually going over your toe. With the idea that despite it being a general. No, no in strength conditioning to squat and have your knees go forward of your toes. Ben's theory is that by loading it in that manner, you're actually increasing blood flow, causing the cartilage to become loaded, triggering a regrowth response, and actually increasing vascularization to the joint. So I got his cheapo little book on Amazon. He's got two on there, one called ATG for Life and one that's more of an knee book. You can find them easily. Go listen to the podcast. I'll link to it in the show notes@bengreenfieldlife.com youngmuscle but I started doing his program. It only took like 10 to 15 minutes. And I usually did it in the sauna, like when my knees are pretty warm and most of it unloaded in the sauna. And then occasionally I do it a little bit loaded, like holding a couple kettlebells or whatever for some of the lunges. And so I think that combined with the regenerative medicine protocols helped a ton. So this wasn't like me sitting in my butt in between stem cells and bone marrow and some of the other stuff you were doing. I think that the physical thera pretty important as well.

Yeah, 100%. And you're still doing the light.

You're wrapping it in light every day.

Yeah. So what I do now also, and this is like I do this for both knees because I just feel like when I do my morning workout, because I usually work out like about 8:30 in the morning. And so I get up about 4:30 or 5 and I roll over and grab these little. They're called kineon lights. The Kineon Move plus. And it's like this combination of LED and laser. You wrap it around a joint and then you can just walk around the house making coffee or doing whatever you're doing in the morning while it shines light for five minutes. And I usually will do it for like 20 minutes. I'll just press the button when it turns off and go for another five minutes. And that feels like it just kind of wakes up my knees for the morning.

Yeah. And so I 100% believe in that. I believe in the knees over toe stuff. And I believe in the. We talk about, you know, muscle, ligament, tendon, fascia, joint, all of that stuff where you're working your muscles and fascia, there's little nerves in your fascia. And so then when you start to get that healthy, then suddenly then the. That's all of the structures that support the knee. And what I found is a lot of times what will happen is people will have pain or dysfunction of one or two muscles. So a classic thing for people is they'll have a tight, super tight vastus lateralis and their IT bands in pain. And then their adductors and their vastus medialis is weak.

Right.

And so they get outside tight, inside.

Outside tight, inside weak. And so then now they're pulling their kneecap laterally. And when they pull their kneecap laterally now they got a tracking problem, which is a problem. And you had that. And I actually spun some bone marrow into your patella as well.

Right.

And that seems to be way better.

And that's a big part of the knees over toes program, too, is strengthening of the vastus medialis. Everything from, like, flutter kicks where you have your VMO contracted, to some of the inner thigh strengthening exercises. And there's like this. This step down that you do. I think he calls it like a Poliquin step down where your heels are down and your toes are up, usually on like a slant board, and you're stepping down off that slant board, and you got to use your VMO to get yourself back up.

Oh, you know, the Charles Pollock one was like a really good friend of mine.

I knew that and forgot it. And now when I'm just now talking about Ben Patrick and Charles Poliquin, apparently Ben Patrick studied under Poliquin and learned a lot of this knees over toes stuff straight from Poliquin.

Oh, really? Okay, so that's 100%. Yeah. Charles Poliquin is basically one of the greatest strength coaches to have ever lived. And so then I would. I would. He would come here and then I would do stuff for him, and then. And he would just basically just tell me stories about the strength and conditioning world. And he would just talk for hours and hours. He was the most hilarious, greatest person I've ever met.

Yeah. I recently did a podcast interview with another person who worked with him on foot proprioception and treats everything from the ground up, like a lot of toe splaying devices. These proprioceptive textured soles that you stand on and then like different balls that you roll the feet with. Do you ever do feet much with your patients?

Like, focus on the foot? Tons. So then, same thing. Ligament, tendon, fascia muscles for the foot. One thing is I'm looking at all the muscles, basically the extensors and the flexors, and so checking out, are those muscles working? Are they in pain? If they are, I may treat the central tendon, I may do a hydrodissection in between the muscles, and then I may treat the nerves. And then.

Oh, so you're actually doing injections into the feet?

Oh, yeah, all the time. And so. Well, so then that's all basically in the calf. And. And often we are hydrodissecting inside the muscle primarily with plasma. And plasma is basically what's in your blood, which is going to muscles. And so then we will start to treat basically the central tendons, which is where a lot of the growth, where the nerves are. So we're treating the nerve that's basically going down to be around the tendon. Tendons hurt because there's a lot of nerves then in the foot Basically what happens is there's a constellation of important ligaments that if they're partially torn, then we will treat those ligaments to build stability. And then I will treat. Probably one of the main things that I do is treat foot pain. And so then just like you've got a carpal tunnel in your wrist, you've got something called a tarsal tunnel in your foot. And then basically your tibial nerve goes down and it splits into three branches. One that goes back to the back of your foot called Baxters, and then one that goes towards your big toe, which is called the medial plantar nerve, and the one that goes towards your little toe called the lateral plantar nerve. And then we do what's called hydrodissection, where we'll put plasma or something anti inflammatory around the nerves to treat nerve pain.

Yeah, yeah. And we did a whole podcast on hydrodissection too, where we got deep into the science of it. And I'll link to that if people want to go listen to more about hydrodissection. But there's also like, you know, I haven't talked about this much on a podcast. I know that you appreciate the importance of it, but that's the nutritional piece. Like, I. One of my friends was at my house last week and we were going to do a breathwork session in the sauna, and she came down the stairs and she was like hobbling. She's going down the stairs, she's like, my Achilles tendon is killing me.

And.

And she said that she had gluten at the dinner party that I threw the night before because she'd stayed the night at my house. And she said that she was just like super swollen and inflamed from that and had a bunch of joint pain. And then you have guys like Tom Brady who are swearing by the no Night Shades diet for Long Term Joint health for athletes. How often do you actually step back and look at a patient's diet when you're doing this kind of work?

All the time. And it's interesting. We have a gluten sensitivity in our family. And because I've treated my mom so much with stem cells, she's basically the only person that hasn't had total joint replacements, like everywhere. And so then it's. I think that it's going to be something that over time we learn more and more about. And so we pay a lot of attention to it. And so then we'll do the Cyrex.

Just gluten or all of them lectins.

And so then all of nightshades all of that is, is significant. Now one, one thing just to step back is to say a lot of the people that I see that have the most trouble are the ones that have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth or fungal overgrowth, which means they have leaky gut and they're reacting to everything that they eat. And so in that case, those are the ones that are really susceptible to many of these systemic things. The next category is the ones that are just genetically celiac sensitive. And so then generally what I do is I'll pay attention to that and then I'll try to do some testing and sort of manage thinking about that. But then for the Achilles I would say of things that really respond well is I'll put plasma basically around the Achilles tendon and I'll do a hydrodissection of that tendon. And so then that's kind of an interesting one.

You're probably familiar with the fact that the average adult should get seven to nine hours of sleep each night. I realize that's not always possible. More and more people are forced to make lifestyle changes to get more deep sleep especially. But the good news is that quality matters just as much as quantity. So when you're in bed sleeping, you want the quality of the sleep, even if you're not able to be in bed seven or eight or nine hours, to be as high as possible. The first half of the night is when your deep sleep window occurs. And that's when things start to drop. Your heart rate, your breathing, your blood pressure, your muscle activity, your body temperature, temperature. And since that temperature drop is such a crucial aspect of the deep sleep stages, finding ways to activate that sleep switch can help to increase your levels of deep sleep. So that's where this thing called sleep me comes in. Sleep me is the system that circulates cold or hot if you need it. As like an alarm clock water to circulate underneath your mattress. So it's a hydropower temperature controlled mattress topper that fits over your existing mattress. No matter what kind of mattress you have to give you your ideal sleep temperature. I'm pretty straightforward. I just set that bad boy 55 degrees and sleep all night. And occasionally I'll switch it to warm water. If I need an alarm, I don't want a blurring alarm clock. The warm water function is amazing. You've probably heard of sunrise alarm clocks that make natural sun. This is like. That works just as well though. It's weird. Warm water just wakes you up and makes you not feel tired like you do when an alarm Breaks you out of your sleep stages that might not be ideal for getting broken out of early in the morning. So it's called the Dock Pro system. This new system that they've made, it's super slick. It'll even tie to your phone. You can set schedules. It's really cool, I guess literally and figuratively in this case. So here's how you can save up to 25% on the purchase of any new sleep system from Sleep Me. And this offer is available exclusively for my listeners only for a limited time. Sleep Me, Bengreenfield. That's Sleep Me.

And that's how you can get that ultimate discount on the Sleep Me. Enjoy. So I wrote a book last year that is my guide to dealing with personal struggles, spiritual growth, temptations. And it's essentially a sequel to my original book, Fit Soul, in which I talk about, as the name implies, getting a fit soul. But this book called Endure is about tools, tactics and habits for improving your spiritual stamina as kind of a fun side project. For that book, I commissioned an artist to create 13 really cool, amazing limited edition covers of super inspirational figures like a bald eagle and David fighting Goliath and a rock climber and an archer and stallions running through like a wildfire and somebody charging up a hill and a ship on the raging ocean. Really, really beautiful books. And then I work to get these books printed. I personally signed each one of them. And so I've got 13 books literally in my office, all limited edition versions of my book Indoor. And what I'm doing is I'm opening up all 13 as an NFT, meaning you can go to BenGreenfieldLife.com EndOrNFT you can bid on any of the books. And when you do, I send the book to your home. You also own the digital right? And we're doing a VIP book signing party with me for the 13 people who each own one copy. Only one copy will ever exist of this Endure book. So I'm super proud of the way these things turned out. They're really beautiful. They'd be great for a gift. They'd be great for a cool place on your bookshelf. You could get all 13. If you want to own the whole collection and be everybody to the punch, that's up to you. But anyways, you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com.

To bid on a book to own it, get the signed version sent to you, own the digital version, and also have a private virtual book signing party with me. Let's check it out. BenGreenfieldLife.com endornft Back to bacterial and fungal overgrowth. I remember at one time you had mentioned to me this peptide called, I think it was LL37 that you've used in the past for that. Do you still like that?

So LL37 is an antimicrobial peptide. And so there is a compounding pharmacy that I'm aware of that will make a liquid LL37. And so then for people who have active SIBO, which means that your small intestine is supposed to be sterile and there's not supposed to be any yeast or bacteria for the most part in there. And then you can get into situations where the bacteria and yeast kind of get ahead of everybody in the food line, basically. An interesting way to think about this, you have more bacteria and yeast in your gut than there are a star in the sky in the colon. But then in the small intestine, it's supposed to be nothing. When the bacteria kind of crawl up into the small intestine, it's small and it can't take being distended. So then what we do is we do a trio test. We look to see if there's, there are bacteria and if they're methane.

The trio is a breath test.

Right? It's a breath test. And then based upon that, we'll do potentially some antibiotics and then we will potentially give them some peptides. And the peptides would be like maybe an immune peptide and LL37. And then in parallel to that, then we may give them a diet that focuses on avoiding fermentable foods like specific carbohydrate diet or a low fodder nap diet.

Okay, but you know, we talked about bacteria and fungus, but from a viral standpoint, we did a podcast about like Covid and vaccinations and long haul Covid and all these Covid related issues. Do you ever see a link between muscle, ligament, tendon, joint health and viruses like Covid or even though I realize this is a controversial topic, something like vaccinations?

Yeah, I got just one of the greatest people I ever met. Firefighter came in, was basically fine, got, got a recent vaccination because he was going to have to go be around family members who were sick and then has developed a fairly substantial neuropathy. We get a call every day that is a vaccine or a Covid complication. Clearly there are some substantial and negative consequences that are, start at the top, neurological. And so then especially Covid can affect the limbic system and affects the brainstem. The brainstem is where the vagus nerve comes from. It can affect any of the cranial nerves. So it can affect people. You hear people lose their sense of smell, sense of smell and taste. So that's the first and then basically the last cranial nerves that can hit everywhere in between. And so then Covid can affect that. It can have a real profound effect on emotionally with depression and anxiety and kind of trauma that is sort of out of proportion to what I've seen before. Interestingly, you say, and I'm in close contact with a lot of doctors in Asia who are very advanced at doing the same type of stuff that I'm talking about, treating the vagus nerve and doing hydroductions of the carotid artery. And from a regulatory perspective, they're very limited in terms. They don't have regenerative medicine to the extent that we do. And so they're mostly doing a lot of this either with plasma or with 5% dextrose. And like me, they're also seeing very positive experiences when they do hydrodissections of the carotid artery and really vagus nerve in COVID patients. For long Covid. For long. For long. For long Covid. With neurological. And they're also doing a lot of stellate ganglion blocks. For long Covid. And the idea is, when you do a stellate ganglion block, it causes a vasodilation of the carotid artery, and that causes an increase in blood flow. And that increase in blood flow seems to reboot and reset, basically, the deep brain structures. And so we use that for long Covid. The other thing that I will do is I'll use plasma, basically, from your blood, and then I treat what's called the C1 plexus, where I come to the anterior side of the first cervical vertebrae, and then I will touch on the anterior side of that, and then I will inject fluid. That fluid will go over, and it gets the carotid artery before it goes into the brain, and it gets the vagus nerve before it comes out. So I can either do that basically right underneath your ear or kind of in the middle of the neck, where I did it for you today. And they're both different, but interesting ways.

To do that based on how that affects the carotid artery. What about headaches? Is it something that can help people have, like, migraines or cluster headaches or anything like that?

When I think about headaches. So then the treat. Treating the carotid is a great way to treat headaches that are in the distribution of the Carotid artery. The stellate can be helpful in general. And then often when I treat the stellate, I'm actually in between the carotid and the vertebral artery. Because I'm in. The vertebral artery is basically deeper.

It goes through these foramen on the sides of the vertebra. But when I get in the fascial plane, I'll see fluid go down towards the vertebral artery. And so I'll get that and go up. So I will. And depending on what's going on, if I'm trying to treat the back of the brain, then we will focus, trying to get some fluid to reboot and reset blood flow vertebrally. Those can be quite helpful for headaches. The other thing is that if people have headaches that are occipital headaches, the patients with mold, patients with Lyme, almost all of the chronic immune people will have a lot of headaches and occipital headaches. And so then we will do hydrodissection with plasma, most likely of the greater occipital nerve. And so then that comes out sort of and wraps around in the back of your head and goes over the. Goes over basically the back of your head. So we try to differentiate what's the cause, is it immune, is it nerve, is it vascular? And then kind of manage those things.

Okay, now, when it comes to some of these chronic stealth co infections that you've mentioned, like the Lyme or the Epstein Barr or something like that, is there like one test? Kind of like there's like that tri test that you talked about for gas issues like sibo. Is there one test, or are there a ton of different tests you have to do? If somebody comes in, they're like, I don't quite know what's going on. We've ruled out almost everything. And then you run something and you find out all this stuff that's hidden, or is it a whole bunch of different tests?

I got a great answer for this. This is like oral board exam with Ben. I love it. This is like one question. It's like rapid sequence. What I've been telling people lately is I said, if you pick me and you and Ben Greenfield and all of our close friends, everybody that we know, and then I did $10,000 worth of testing, and I'll say what that is. What I'm going to tell you is all of our friends are going to test positive for three to four things out of the 10 to 15, 12 things. And yet in our cohort Most of those people are not going to have any symptoms. And so what that means is we have a microbiome in our gut and that microbiome is there's more bacteria in our colon than there are stars in the sky. So then if you think about this, we also have a virome. And so we've been exposed to all kinds of different viruses. We've been exposed to potentially cmv, obscene Barr virus is a virus that millions of people have and then bacteria. And so then some people, cmv, that's cytomegalovirus. So some people will have devastating symptoms from this. And that's because their immune system is dysregulated. They may have toxicity, they may have a big gastrointestinal problem that's driving dysfunctional immune system. And so then all of it comes is out of control control. Or you could be like you and you might have some of those things, but you don't have any symptoms. So then the question is, what do you do for testing? So then there's a company that looks at what you're making antibodies to. We know about antibody testing because people did antibody testing to see if you were had made antibodies to Covid.

Yeah.

So then is that Cyrex? So, well, there's a bunch of different companies, but the Igenx does antibody testing. This probably Igenics is the best antibody testing, which looks for Borrelia, Bartonella, Babesia, Ehrlichia, and kind of the primary infections from an antibody perspective. Then in the United States, there's a company called Infecto Lab and they look at your T cell response and so they look at your T cell response to the same things.

And then they look at your T cell response to Epstein Barr and cmv. And Igenx also looks at those. Infecto Lab and Igenx will cover your B cell and T cell responses, which is going to be interesting. Next thing is Andrew Campbell has a company called MyMyCo that will look at your to see if you're making antibodies to mold.

Okay.

And so then those three labs together, MyMyCo, Isagenix and Infecto is my Mico and Infector labs. Okay. And then if you're in Europe, it's Armand Labs.

Okay. Armand Labs instead of all three of those.

Armand Labs instead of Infecto labs.

Okay, got it.

And so, and so then that as a constellation will, will give you a fairly robust assessment of those.

But then are those all blood tests?

That's all, that's all blood tests. Okay. Now you can Do a mold urine test. There's controversy. Some people think it's the best thing since sliced bread, and some people think it's, it's in balance.

Sliced moldy bread.

It's sliced moldy bread. And so you go, you can go into testing for days and days, but what I'll tell you is what you have to do is get your immune system working. Get, get dialed in from kind of a lifestyle wellness perspective. Heal your gut. And then for. And you're going to do the same thing whether you're focusing on high end well or whether you're in a fairly devastating situation of chronic fatigue. If there's, in the chronic illness people, there's usually one thing driving it. And so it may be that Borrelia, which is Lyme disease, It may be the Epstein Barr is the big driver. And that's kind of the classic driver of chronic fatigue. What happens with COVID is Covid comes on and creates the cytokines storm that creates a huge immune stress. And then often it dysregulates your immune system. And as a result of that, then these other things that were in the background come out. Oh, so you get basically two versions of long Covid. Okay, it could be that. And basically data has come out that when it first came out, they said, oh, yeah, Covid comes and it's gonna be gone. It's no longer in your body. And I thought, there's no way that's true. And sure enough, now some people will have a viral reservoir, most likely in their gut. And so the virus is living on and then triggering you. Option two is that you just have viral particles of the COVID bacteria. Option three is viral particles.

Those are in the bloodstream or the.

Gut or both, everywhere. Because those viral particles. And that viral particle would be like the spike protein that your body's having a hard time getting rid of. Long Covid could be those things, or long Covid could have triggered your immune system, brought all of these other Epstein Barr CMV infections and mold triggered that to kind of come into the forefront. And so then we're trying to kind of sort that out. And then when people come in, then we're sorting that out, sorting out what's going on neurologically with them, and then kind of building sort of a treatment plan to support them.

How big of an issue is Covid still? Because it seems like, you know, there's obviously not a lot of masking policies and stuff like that, but you still seeing a lot of people come in with it fresh at the time. Of recording this was April 2023 now.

Yeah, yeah. So when we did our last podcast and you said, well, are you what's going on with vaccination? And I said, well, you know what's happening? It seems like there's a trend where Covid may be starting to dwindle. And so then we are minimally involved in hearing about people that are with active Covid. We hear all the time about long Covid.

Okay. Which means that the COVID that people contracted, say like perhaps during the pandemic, is sticking around for a very long period of time.

Well, most likely the COVID is long gone. And there may be some particles of the virus or there may be some particles that are related to, to the vaccine that are triggering an immune response. And that immune response is what we call long Covid.

Okay.

And that is either a pure immune response to Covid or an immune response that is Covid plus whatever else was happening to be going on with it.

Yeah. Okay. Now this isn't a total disconnect from COVID because in our last podcast you talked about some different peptides that can be handy for, for working with COVID or long haul Covid. But then I think a few months ago you told me you had a chance to hang out with Dr. Kavinson. Oh, Cavinson. Yeah, Cavinson, the Russian research who has all these crazy like human long term studies on decreased all cause risk of mortality with peptides or peptide bioregulators. Have those become like a major part of your routine or your practice?

So the bioregulator peptides are going to be amazing and I'm a big fan.

Yeah. I mean I interviewed Phil Mikens about them and I'm shocked more people don't know about them.

Right.

And it will explain to people.

So Phil, shout out to Phil, you're the best. Basically all of your major organs have a one or two peptides that regulate functions within that organ.

Right. Liver, heart, pancreas, kidney, brain.

Yeah. Pineal gland.

Yes.

And, and, and so then these are, these are small peptides that are two or three or four amino acids. The great thing about that is, is that there are oral versions of them and because they're just a few amino acids, you can absorb them. And so then I take the oral bioregulators all the time.

You take them all. I thought you only had to do like a couple stints of them during the year.

So then there's, there are people who will take all of them for a short period of time. There will people who will take two or three of them and then they will cycle through them.

Oh, to a new set.

To a new set. And so then for different organisms, you're gonna have 18, 20 bioregulators. And so then you could, you could take four at a time and kind of always be rotating. And then there are some that help your immune system. And so I find that it's super interesting. Dr. Cavinson was the person who came up with these because they were able to figure out what the sequence was. There are synthetic versions of these available.

Not super available from the tissue of the animal.

Yeah. And so then there's synthetic pills, and then there's also pills where they take a thymus gland from a cow that was raised organically, and then they extract and isolate that peptide and give that to you. And then you can also. There are also versions that are synthetic, synthetically produced in an injectable form. So you have all of that available.

Okay. There's this one company called Ancestral Supplements that has sent me up like desiccated glandulars and capsules like thyroid and obviously liver, heart, kidney, spleen, etc. Is that kind of like the same thing as taking a peptide bioregular but just direct from the animal, or do you think bioregulators are more precise or more bioavailable?

All things that are great have been happening for a long time.

Yeah.

And so then I. Except chatgpt except. Exactly. And so the glandulars have been a great product forever. And so people in Chinese medicine have always used them and use them to a lot of success. And I know a lot of people in Chinese medicine and otherwise that used glandulars a lot to support people from an immune perspective going through Covid. And then almost for sure those glandulars have bioregulators in them. If you look at anything from a plant herb based product, then there's one theory that you're going to get an entourage effect if you have a constellation of things that came together. Yeah. There's another side of the equation that says, well, what if I had a synthetic one and I could do it in higher dosing? And so then Dr. Cavan's head protocols where he was regularly treating people and then even after they stopped doing their treatment, then they, they tracked these people and he presented this. I went to a conference in Europe basically just to meet him. And that's where I met Phil. And I was just totally, totally impressed. He's done a lot of work and what we need to do is we need to Have a better way to start to study this. And I think that we will fundamentally be able to reproduce all of the work that he's done. And they've got a huge, basically clinical research program that they've done for a long time over there.

There's impressive 25 or 30 of them.

Right.

Like at least a couple of dozen.

For me, what I've had access to has only been 16 to 20.

Okay, so let's say 18 or whatever. Could you just take all of them, all the fragments, put them all in one insulin syringe, and then just do a stent where you inject all of them for a few days in a row, like a couple times a year.

That, that would be an appealing concept to study.

It seems to me like that would be a pretty good anti aging or longevity play if that actually worked.

And well. So then you think so then go into longevity. So what is longevity? And then how are we going to manage that? I think the bioregular peptides are one interesting thing. And you have Cavinson's data, which is going to be an interesting perspective on it. And they had less cardiac, more morbidity and mortality. That's going to be an interesting one. Then there's going to be immune peptides, I think are going to be an interesting one because the. Why did they call pneumonia the old man's friend? Because what happens is our immune system starts to get derailed when we get old. And so then we just start to have susceptibility to immune problems. And so then there's a theory. Just like when people get older, a lot of times their thyroid gland is not making enough to support them, and so they take a thyroid supplement. Eventually we're going to start to take immune supplements. And so things to support the immune system from a peptide perspective, I think will be standard of care in 10 years. Okay, okay, we'll get on a podcast in 10 years. And that's going to be like a super normal thing, maybe 15 years. Then next thing is the exosome and stem cell conversation, which. Which I think is going to be interesting. And then the next interesting thing about that is, is how do you drive exosomes, stem cells, plasma to different parts of the body. You know, part of that is things like doing a stellate to increase blood flow to the brain.

Well, there's other doctors using red light. Dr. Todd Ovil Koski, something like that. I met him at the Da Vinci conference. He was talking about he'll do stem cells and activate them to the area where they need to travel by using lasers. Have you heard of this?

Yeah. Yeah. So there's a. I think, a very good logic of activating fluid. And so what can you do? You can. If you pull. You pull blood out, and then you separate the blood and you get plasma. Then plasma has a host of interesting things in it. One of the things that's in plasma is platelets. And so that's why we like the platelets and we use those platelets, and you can concentrate those platelets. The other thing that you could do is you could just take the plasma with the platelets. What else is in there? V cells are in there. And very small embryonic.

Like stem cells.

Exactly. And so then those are pluripotent stem cells. My mentor in B cells is one of my favorite people in the world is Bill Paspillarius, who is in Australia, who's done a deep amount of research in this, and he has a company called Tython. And so then there's a fairly robust protocol that they have, which is isolating those B cells and activating them. And there's a light activation in those. And so I've done quite a bit of this. And then Dr. Todd also has a great protocol for activating those cells and then giving them back. And there's approaches of giving them back around a nerve or muscle, ligament, tendon, nerve, fascia.

Yeah.

And so then imagine if I was going to inject plasma into muscle, which I do a lot, then one of the things that happens is there's B cells in there.

Yeah.

But the primary thing that I call that, I call it plasma because there may be V cells, and we do our best to activate them. But overall, it's back to the Entourage effect. There's a constellation of kind of positive things that are in plasma that seem to be helpful for muscles.

Okay. All right, got it. That makes sense. By the way, I can't seem to get out of my head since you mentioned about how pneumonia is an old man's best friend. The old Jack Handy quote. You ever watched Jack Handy used to be on Saturday Night Live. These, like, crazy random quotes, and he goes, you know, my grandfather used to say that laughter was the best medicine, which is why, I guess, several of us died of tuberculosis.

Look up Jack Hannah. If anybody googles Jack Hannah, you're gonna laugh for hours.

Matt.

You're always a wealth of information. If you were to put all our podcasts together, you'd have, like, eight hours of pure regenerative medicine gold and all sorts of crazy ideas. When I act as like I'm quizzing you for the board and put you in the hot seat. And I'll link to all those@BenGreenfieldLife.com YoungMuscle anything else you wanna throw in for folks that's super cool that you're up to lately?

I'm gonna do a shout out and this one, we're not ready for this. But it was kind of funny just because of this podcast that you brought up, Charles Poliquin. Because my trainer that I go to every week and is training me is one of the greatest people in the world, also named Toby Hansen. And he's very Charles Poliquin esque. And he basically developed something and I'm, I'm going to create chaos. I've already created chaos for myself because I got him so busy and he's so great that it's hard to get in to see him. But he basically took and re engineered basically flywheel training with this with the original inventor of it pair who lives in Spain. And so then they have flywheel training which basically does a profound eccentric load of muscles. And we've been going deep and he's developed exercises to train basically every part of the body using flywheel training to build eccentric load. And so then when you said how, how important is the, the concept of physical therapy and myofascial stuff and training to go along with basically our hydrodissection approach? 100% important. It's the most important thing.

And is there a name for his devices if I wanted to find them and link to him?

We're going to, I'm going to, we're going to, we're going to find a website for Tony.

Find it and let me know. Flywheel training, by the way, I believe has a very high isokinetic component because I've worked out on a couple of flywheel like machines, meaning whether the concentric or the eccentric phase, the harder that you generate force against the flywheel, the harder it pulls or pushes back against you.

Exactly.

So it's concentrated and tension throughout the entire range of motion. Very similar to if you were like in water and you were to open your palm and move your arm straight up against the water and then down against the water. It'd be hard the whole time. Like that's an isokinetic force generation.

Yeah. And he's training and we see a lot of pro athletes together and he's training a lot of pro athletes and seems to be fixing musculoskeletal problems that other people couldn't fix. And often where you doing combinations of therapy where plus stuff.

So if I was here longer, I'd go work out with you.

You know what? We can, you know, we can go over there because I have access and we could actually go do it tonight.

I'll sneak in there in the morning or tonight after pickleball, after our school. You and pickleball. All right, well, I'll put all the show notes@bengreenfieldlife.com youngmuscle again along with a link to all the other shows that Matt and I had done and resources for everything that we talked about in today's show. If you want to come see Matt, his clinics in San Jose, super close to San Jose airport, but you can check it out. It's at bioreset medical. Bioreset medical. Let him know you're a friend of the show and he'll take good care of you. And Matt, once again, thanks for coming on, man.

Thanks, you the best.

And now for some BONUS Audio from.

Dr. Matt Cook on hydrodissection and treating joints and connective tissue.

People always ask, what's the best product to use for the injections that we do. I like to break it down into products that come from your own body and then products that come from somewhere else. In terms of the products that come from your own body, if we pull some blood out and then spin and separate the red blood cells from everything else, we call that plasma. And plasma has platelets in it, it has growth factors in it and has been probably one of our favorite products that we use for hydrodissection. You can further separate out the platelets and have platelet rich and platelet poor plasma. And those can have a variety of benefits that we will use for different problems both in joints and in connective tissue and in fascial planes. Another thing that is potentially one of our favorite products of all time is something called nanofat. For nanofat, we do a small adipose harvest and take some of the fat which contains fat stem cells, and then we size that through these little screens and break it down so that you can inject it into a small needle. And then that does something that both transfers some of your own cells from one area to another. And so we can do that and place them either into joints or around nerves or into fascial planes of everything that we use. This is probably our longest lasting product. And there are some interesting things going on now in terms of being able to bank your own fat stem cells. And so as a result of that, often what we will do is Do a nano fat procedure and then also bank some solves and that would allow you to potentially use those in the future. Final thing of your own solves to come from your own body is bone marrow. And as you know, Ben, we've used these for you. A great product and something that we have a lot of experience with. It can be a little inflammatory and in terms of putting it into joints and we generally find we have so much success with everything else that it's probably our last choice. But it can be helpful and it can be very helpful if you're. If there's a bone marrow lesion and we use bone marrow to fix bone marrow. In terms of products that come from someone or somewhere else, the thing that has been probably one of the most helpful products that I've ever found is placental matrix, which is connective tissue basically that was gamma radiated. So there's. That came from a placenta that was donated at a C section. And so this doesn't have any stem cells in it, but it does have growth factors and it tends to have an anti inflammatory effect on connective tissues. Another one is peptides and there's a whole host of peptides that, you know, we could do a whole podcast on that have different mechanisms. And so there's different peptides you can use both in joints and in connective tissue. And that's kind of a great topic. The growth factor. Products that had been quite popular in regenerative medicine are fundamentally going away in North America. But then there's also some other things that are real cheap products that if you do a great job with hydrodization, often it kind of relieves impingement and compression and opens up fascial planes. And so we've used 5% dextrose and saline for a lot of injections over the years with a lot of great success.

All right folks, it's coming up quick. VIP event with me that occurs during the time that I am in London for the Health Optimization Summit. I'm throwing in a private VIP meetup at Hum2n Labs with Dr. E over there. This is one of the most advanced biohacking facilities I've ever stepped foot into. We're opening up to a select group of VIPs. Very small group, you could be one of them. Kicks off at 5.30pm in London on Monday, June 19. You're going to get to network with me and a bunch of the other biohacking enthusiasts and physicians there. We will do a special talk on age reversal. There'll be a Q&A a variety of healthy organic foods, biohack cocktails, a swag bag where you get to try IV cryotherapy, red light therapy, hyperbaric oxygen, different types of nootropics and smart drugs that they have there. So it's going to be a pretty cool event and you can get in now if you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com HUM2N London that's BenGreenfieldLife.com HUM 2N London. If that's too much for you to remember, just go to BenGreenfieldLife.com calendar and everywhere that I'm going that I'm speaking, where you can join me. All the events are also there on the calendar@bengreenfieldlife.com calendar but this Hum2n event, Monday, June 19th is going to be a good one.

More than ever these days, people like you and me need a fresh, entertaining, well informed and often outside the box approach to discovering the health and happiness and hope that we all crave. So I hope I've been able to do this that for you on this episode today and if you liked it or if you love what I'm up to, then please leave me a review on your preferred podcast listening channel, wherever that might be and just find the Ben Greenfield Life episode. Say something nice. Thanks so much. Means a lot.