Stem Cell Myths, Hydrodissection, Exosomes, & Vagus Nerve Stimulation - Part 2 With Dr. Ahvie

The other thing that I wanted to bring up about that C1 is because it's altering your blood supply to your brain and we can, it can modulate.

Your immune response to a certain extent to your autonomic system. It. When people have cold and flu and allergy symptoms, we do a lot of times see those dissipate and you know, just with that 100 day section and instantaneous relief of that congestion, of that runny nose, of that cough, of that, that altered temperature.

Wow, that's crazy. So it's almost like it, like it can be an instant fix for just like an acute sickness.

That's correct.

That's crazy.

It is really. And then it's like even in looking at people that are okay, they're like, we talked about hard, hard issues, blood pressure issues, we can kind of turn somebody on a dime and make a real impactful.

Change.

Please enjoy part two of Ben's interview with Dr. Avi Herskovitz, a follow up to Thursday's episode. You can find part one, along with.

A background and introduction at BenGreenfieldLife.com Anatara.

That'S BenGreenfieldLife.com A N A T A R A and the show notes for.

This episode are@BenGreenfieldLife.com Anantara 2 Anantara with a number 2.

This is obviously a big adventure through anantara medicine and everything that they do. But what we haven't talked yet about are some of these injections, particularly a flavor of injections called hydrodissection. I've talked about hydrodissection when it comes to joint health before on the podcast. And a lot of these treatments that people will do for knee pain, elbow pain, carpal tunnel, et cetera. But there's kind of like this weird component of hydrodissection that's related to the nervous system, related to stress. And I haven't talked about that too much. You know, there was a podcast a couple months ago where I'd mentioned these nerve blocks like stellate ganglion and briefly mentioned it. But apparently from what I understand, and Avi was filling in on this briefly and said that you had a lot of flavor to add on this as well. Dr. Tierney, there's, there's this idea of hydrodissection specifically for the nervous system with things like cervical spine injections or vagal nerve treatment. So tell me a little bit about that.

Well, that, you know, one of the things that maybe is lacking in healthcare is this address addressing peripheral nerves. And what's come to light with the, with COVID is how Essential there's some plexus of neuro of nerves are. So you think of nerves as traveling through the body, but we don't often recognize how much they need to move. Literally, if you move your neck, the nerves are moving, you know, several inches as you, and you move as you move. So if there's adhesions around the nerves or webbing around the nerves that may be caused from inflammation and infection and injury, then you start to have nerve problems. So just take a look at if you ripped your skin off, you know, with a, you know, when you scrape your skin off with a cut, you notice as it heals, it kind of gets pulled back together, which is very useful because you throw out these webs to stitch things together. But if you have, you know, an infection or an injury or arthritis and you're throwing these webs out between the muscles, and now you're restricting the nerve's ability to move between the muscles and the nerve starts to become dysfunctional. So when we look at, you know, what group of nerves do we least want to see dysfunctional? It's, it's probably the C1 Plexus, which is your vagus nerve, your sympathetic chain or your internal carotid plexus. So that's basically your heart rate and your blood flow and your blood pressure, you know, to your entire body, along with your digestion. So, you know, a low blood pressure can be very bad. A high blood pressure can be very bad. It goes along to the hypoglossal and the glossopharyngeal nerve, along with the vagus nerve, which are sensory and motor to the tongue. Then we go on to the superior laryngeal nerve that controls your ability to swallow and your vocal abilities. We also have the facial nerve that's going to control not only the muscles of the face, but also your ability to focus your hearing and adjust the pressure in your middle ear.

And these are, these are all the so called, these are all the so.

Called cranial nerves that, that series of nerves, for whatever reason with COVID and with other infections that are chronic, tends to get adhered. And then people have these, you know, symptoms where their vision is not okay because that, those nerves control the pupil dilation, constriction and the blood flow to the brain. Their, their hearing is altered. They have ringing in their ears of taste, loss of smell. They have lower blood pressure, especially when they stand up. We call it pots. So they have this situation where, you know, their blood, blood pressure may go down their heart rate, which should probably, for them be 60 is down at 30 and they pass out when they stand up. So we can literally just simply hydrodissect that plexus of nerves and within 10 minutes, that person's blood pressure, heart rate goes from 30 to 72. And then, you know, that person was headed for a pacemaker and trouble. And that's just such a common thing right now. So the same thing happens for these visual changes or the hearing changes.

And that's the one area that those nerves being dysfunctional can be a matter of life and death, you know? Yeah, yeah.

And I remember back when I was taking anatomy in college and we had all these different cranial nerves snaking through the head, I believe what was the mnemonic on old Olympus, towering tops of Finn and German budsome hops. And the first letter of each of those words, I think corresponded to a different nerve like the vestibular, the vestibulocochlear, et cetera. And I think that these days, a lot of people who are into biohacking technologies or stress mitigation strategies, they'll use things like vagal nerve stimulators. There's all these different devices. I've gotten some sent to my house over the past few months that kind of deliver this mild electrical current over the vagal nerve area. And that seems to actually help people a little bit with stress. People who, as you were alluding to, have this, what is it? Postural orthostatic hypotension where they'll stand up and they'll get dizzy, and a lot of times that'll correlate to having been through a period of stress, et cetera. And I think a lot of people have felt what you're describing. But beyond these vagal nerve stimulators which people use at home, back to this concept of hydrodissection, you can actually go in and adjust these nerves using ultrasound guided imaging and needles, from what I understand.

So you have better than a tenth of a millimeter accuracy to put a needle right in that very delicate plexus and then just put, push the muscles apart. And then the particular muscles here would be the rectus capitis anterior and a digastric. But you know, regardless of that, it's, it's, it's the big guns. I think you have your big guns for adjusting your nervous system. Your autonomic system is probably celiac ganglion block and that C1 Plexus 100A section. And then you have all these other things like, you know, the vagus nerve stimulation, breathing techniques, you know.

Exercise, weight train, is it trained? Your autonomic system, even acupuncture is adjusting. So you have all these tools, you know, biofeedback, meditation, breathing that we can use. But the big guns would be that hydrodissection. And one of the things with. I talk about with hydrodissection is.

It'S really hard from any other technique that we would use, any that I mentioned to create more mobility and more health in those nerves. So you can relax those nerves, get them functioning, but they're not going to stay functioning if they're continuously restricted. So you have this opportunity to make a change that's a lasting change.

Okay, so as much fun as it would be for Avi to just come over here and jam a needle in my neck, I don't think this is going to be one that we demonstrate right now, but describe to people how this would actually work. I hear you talking, and I find a doctor who's well versed in these hydrodissection procedures. And I asked about stellate ganglion nerve block, and I go in for this stellate ganglion or the whole C1 plexus. What's somebody actually experienced during one of these? How's it go down?

Well, you're going to, you know, in the C1 Plexus case, you're going to be lying on your side, and we're going to look at the anatomy in that area, and we're going to kind of be aware of. Of the things that we want to avoid and the things that we want to address. We're going to avoid any major vessels, especially the occipital artery, internal, jugular vein. Those are the two things that are in that plexus along the nerves. We're going to make a plan of are we going to come from the back or the front? So you'd be lying on your side, and it would come either from posterior or from anterior, and it would go to that fascial plane, and we would just inject fluid, and that fascial plane would open up, and you would just see that space created, breaking those adhesions around those nerves and.

Making a lasting change.

The nice thing about this kind of work is not only does it make a lasting change, but we can actually see within 10 minutes a dramatic change in somebody's function in most cases. So it's not unusual to say, okay, your heart rate, your blood pressure was low. Now it's the normal. You know, your blood pressure was high. Now it's normal. Your. Your visual acuity is. Is very low. Now it's normal, you know, your ability.

To clear your ear.

So you have this instant feedback that, that, that it makes it easier for us as providers to, you know, guide you through.

Your best care.

And you do this on both sides of the neck?

Yes. Now that's the one thing that's different between a stellate block. The stellate block is we're blocking the sympathetic side so that the vagus side or the parasympathetic side can express itself and also so that the nervous system can recover when it's been overwhelmed metabolically and spinning too fast. So that that stellar ganglion block is lower. You're lying on your back and you're turning, it turned to one side. So the stellar ganglion block is lower and it's. That it can only be done on one side per day. And the reasoning for that is that the, there's a nerve, the laryngeal nerve, and there this. And if that is blocked, which is the branches of the vagus nerve, that nerve is blocked, then you may not be able to swallow normally or talk normally on one side. But if we blocked both sides, then you wouldn't be able to breathe without being intubated. So we only do one side per day to avoid that issue. So with a stellate with it, with the stellate block, it's one side, and with the C1 plexus, we can do both sides. Because there's not an anesthetic, there's not that risk of doing both sides on the same day.

How do you think these compare to those vagal nerve stimulators like the electrocurrent devices?

I think it's like I talked in general with, when you're treating something that needs a hydrodase section, not doing a hydra day section, it's essentially like a massage. So when we get a massage.

It feels better. If you have a lot of adhesions around your nerves and really muscles don't have a sensation for pain. So we just think, okay, muscles don't have a sensation for pain. So if I have a, have pain and I feel like I need a massage, then I'm going to feel better if I get a massage. But if there's, if the, if the nerves are still restricted, the next, in a couple days I'm going to feel the pain again. So the same thing happens when you're dealing with your autonomic system. So if I use a vagus nerve stimulation to get the vagus nerve to function better, to relax and be more healthy, it's a really Useful thing. And I don't discourage it in any way, but, you know, you're not being realistic if you think that's going to last.

When the vagus nerve dysfunction is related to adhesions that are restricting the vagus nerve from. From moving and getting normal circulation. So it's a great thing. I think it's an additional thing to do, but you would have to. You would likely have to continue doing that and not have a lasting result. Whereas a C1 hydrodasection is something that you may have to do, you know, one or three times period, to solve the problem, like, ever.

And then your nervous system just kind of like, reset at that point.

Right, right. It's essentially just. You're just. You just freed up that nerve. So even if the muscles get tight, even if there is inflammation in your body, even if something happened, unless something created that readhesion of those connective tissue, that most muscles, that connective tissue around the nerve, you're not going to have to go through that again.

And.

It occasionally will happen that it comes back. If there's an inflammatory process and we come back with different biological tools, you know, that will make it last. I'll give you an example. I had a patient that came in. She had Covid, and she. Her heart rate was 30 beats a minute. You know, she happened to be in the office for something else, but she was scheduled for a pacemaker the next week. And I said, well, you know, sometimes we can help out with this. Why don't we do this? It's a minimally invasive thing to do. It's. You know, it's not. Not extraordinarily expensive. So we. We did that procedure, and her heart rate went from 30 to 72 within 10 minutes, and it stayed there for four days. So she's coming back. It's starting to go off. I said, okay, well, if. If it doesn't last, that usually means there's an inflammatory process. So come back with us a product that. That kind of stops that. So we. We did the procedure with that product, and now she has been. She's had a heart rate of 72 for the past year, and that change was, like I said, within five minutes of the procedure.

Wow. Wow. I just want to say a few things, Sean, when I ask our patients, when you come around twice a month to the office here, I want to thank you for that. That.

What's your fate? What's the most effective thing that we've done for you this month or this last two months? And they say, well, that C1 injection woke me up. Wow. So it's a wake up. It's not just, you know, again, Covid is a great unveiler of pathology underneath. And it's not just affecting and not just giving us sore throats. It's inflammatory in the neck and can tie up all your cranial nerves. But the majority of people that we use them in the real world are folks that they just want an extra boost. So it's cognitive boost, energy boost, even performance boosts. And so that's the average thing. We'll talk later about the German resetting of the nervous system using intravenous procaine later. But the other thing about the stella ganglion block, which we've used on all of our cancer patients to, to basically allow their parasympathetics to come up so they have more calming effects because they're dealing with their stress, is reacting to the real world. So that's not going to go away.

And they want, they want to have, they want to have it done repeatedly. So this is not painful. It's very fast, very quick. And they say, oh, let's do the. I can't wait to do the other side. I can't wait to do the other side. And, and also that there's this.

Issue about other things that one other thing that comes up a lot is that I wasn't aware of until you told it to me and you said that hydrodissection at that level, one way or another is.

In the neck area and in the head area is outstanding treatment for migraine.

Interesting. Yeah, I could see that being the case with migraines. You've actually experienced that as well, Dr. Toney?

Oh, yeah. Well, you know, the. What we have to look at with migraines and I have only ever had to my knowledge, one patient that I couldn't get rid of the headache with hydrodissection. And that's not just that C1 plexus, but. And that was my nephew. We actually to get rid of his headache and end up being from the circulation to the brain and abnormality in the, in the brain circulation. But that aside from that story, just to go over the basics of headaches now, headaches, it turns out, are.

Really nerve impingements. And the migraine headache has the nerve impinged. And also next to an artery, usually the occipital artery sits right next to three nerves. We have really three nerves that do the same thing without looking and pushing and doing a good exam by talking to somebody. I don't know which of those three Nerves. It is, it's pretty simple. It's the greater occipital, the lesser occipital, and the least or third occipital and all those nerves that are going to wrap around to the forehead and to behind the eye. So just to kind of basically give you an understanding of that. And I, and I like the greater occipital as one of the best examples of why hydrodissection is important. So I'm just going to turn here so you can see. So the.

Less. The greater occipital is the only nerve that comes posterior kind of between the lamina or between the particles of C1 and C2. So this nerve comes out between C1 and C2 and goes posterior. Most nerves come out and go anterior or lateral coming out of the spine. So this nerve goes posterior and it turns and goes all the way to midline, all the way to midline, and then it turns all the way back out to about.

Halfway to the lateral side.

Then it goes.

Shoots right over the head. Now, the reason that, that that nerve comes out and goes to the left and goes to the right and shoots over the head is because if I turn my head like this, now that's a straight line. That means that nerve is going to be moving that much, you know, inches by 3 inches through the muscles just for me to turn my head that way. So when I have restriction in or between the muscles or webs between the muscles and I restrict that motion.

That nerve is going to be very vulnerable. So when I just. When we hydrodisect and push those muscles apart and then the nerve can glide as you move your head, then we make. We really enhance the function and the circulation to that nerve. And there's. The other nerve is kind of complex too. I'm not going to bore everybody with it. But the, the third occipital nerve actually comes out at C2, goes down to C6, back up and wraps around another muscle and goes around. So you have all these different wrapping and turning. It just allows your, your nerves to not tear as they move through your body. And there's a lot of places where, you know, you need inches of glide and, and those nerves that cause headaches, that there's. There's two of the three really needs inches of, of gliding. And the reason that we have that C1 plexus here is because that's the least amount of motion that's going to happen as we move our head anywhere other than right in front of C1. We have to have these loops where nerves can move and accommodate for that motion, that stretching of our muscles.

Interesting. And I guess if somebody's dealing with a migraine headache right now or they're incredibly stressed, that they might be googling stellate, ganglion, nerve block, name of their city or whatever. But I guess adrenaline, seeing the elephant in the room here. These are sharp objects going into one's neck, near extremely vulnerable arteries. How does somebody know if they're going to Somebody who's actually well versed in these protocols and knows what they're doing?

Well, I mean, the most predictable thing is, you know, if you, it's, it's what their experience is to an extent. There is an RMSK certification that people that are experts at ultrasound tend to have. So you can look for somebody that has a RMSK certification or you can just, you know, look at, look at somebody's experience, you know, talk to them, look at their background. And I've been teaching these procedures for 13 years.

So I do know a lot of the people in areas all over the world. You know, I've taught, you know, teaching from, you know, China, New Zealand, Australia, to, you know, Canada.

In South America and all those areas. So I kind of know who's going to have it. And then I think if you know somebody who's an expert in it, you can call them and say, hey, you know, I'm in Phoenix. You know, who's the closest person that I, that I, that you trust? And we can kind of guide you to the best of our ability.

So it is kind of tough. I think that there is probably, you.

Know.

Less than 50 people in the United States, I would say possibly less than 20, that are going to be really skilled at those, those.

Those procedures. And the numbers may be more. I, I, I personally know of.

20. Yeah, okay, maybe there may be, hopefully there's a lot more. Right. But basically they're looking at less than 1% of the, of the providers out there.

Yeah, that makes sense. What, what I'm going to do is I'm going to put the name of your website and everything in the, in the show notes so people could at least start there as far as some digging goes. I'm sure Avi knows some good, good folks for this as well. So if you're listening in right now, both Dr. Tierney's and Dr. Avi's clinics are going to be in the shownotes@bengreenfieldlife.com Anutara if you're interested in getting a procedure like this done, because I think it's absolutely one of the most profound things I've seen for nervous system management. So I'm super appreciative if you're filling us in, Shane.

Yeah, I mean there's a tendency to have people go one direction or another direction. For me, C1, that plexus, it just, I feel really, really good. And some people that are tend to run really high, they feel better after getting a stellate block. But yeah, you have that, that almost a personality that it's going to do better with one versus the other. The other thing that I wanted to bring up about that C1 is because it's altering your blood supply to your brain and we can, it can modulate.

Your immune response to a certain extent to your autonomic system. It. When people have cold and flu and allergy symptoms, we do a lot of times see those dissipate and you know, just with that 100 day section and instantaneous relief of that congestion, of that runny nose, of that cough, of that, of that altered temperature.

Wow, that's crazy. So it's almost like it, like it can be an instant fix for just like an acute sickness.

That's correct.

That's crazy.

It is really. And then it's like even in looking at people that are okay, that like we talked about hard, hard issues, blood pressure issues, we can kind of turn somebody on a dime and, and make a real impactful change.

You know, I'm, I'm really glad folks.

Are finding out about last time Sean was here last, last week at the office here in an Atara, we had a woman with a malignant form of hypertension and tachycardia. And after the procedure her blood pressure was 113 over 67 and heart rate was 72. Wow. So it can have an immediate effect. The question is whether it'll last. And of course the way we performed it on this particular woman, it should last. But let's just see how it goes. But you can have an immediate impact. The thing about the immune system connected to the nervous system is sort of a really cool pearl that you can take out of this because it's not to be expected. But of course they're connected.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean of course they're connected to the brain. Of course they're connected to the autonomic nervous system.

Yeah.

But to have that type of instantaneous turnoff, it's pretty remarkable. Wow.

Amazing.

I have four patients that.

Every so often will have visual deficits so far as their ability to focus. And they, we kind of concluded over over the years that hey, this is what, what they need. So they'll literally come in, I won't see them for a year. They come out like, yeah, my, my vision is starting to get a little blurry again. Let me get another C1 plexus. And then that's, you know, and within five minutes they're like, okay, I'm back and I'll see you when we see you. And sometimes it's a year or two and we'll come back in and say, hey, you know, it does make sense because really your pupillary.

Size, your size of your pupil is controlled by your autonomic system. And if that system is out of balance, you may lose that ability to focus. And the latest medication for actually focusing for like somebody like me who needs reading glasses, the little drops that just make your pupil smaller and then you, all of a sudden, you know, you can read the small print again without glasses. So there, there's a lot of science and technology and physiology behind that, that being effective. And the other thing that I would see that it's, I see those repeat people coming in as the people get that get tinnitus or tinnitus.

Where they have ringing in their ears and, or some loss of hearing and that those, those people kind of come back and oh, that's, I need another C1. I know, you know, maybe it's been a year, maybe it's been a couple of years, but it started to come back. So let's just get it taken care of. And that's going to be a devastating condition to have.

Yeah.

Well, this is fascinating.

Thank you, John.

Appreciate it.

Appreciate it.

All right, man, good, good to see you on the Internet.

Yeah, yeah.

All right.

All right, see you later.

We'll see you.

Well, one thing we haven't talked about yet that is obviously a hot topic in the whole anti aging longevity medicine sector is stem cells. I've talked about stem cells a lot in the podcast before, but I'm curious in your office if there's a specific flavor or approach that you use to stem cell management. Because you obviously talk to a lot of people about this and you're kind of forward thinking on the whole topic. So I'm curious how you do things as far as stem cells are concerned.

Surely I'll be happy to discuss it.

We've taught stem cell therapies under the umbrella of ACAM for about six years, but we started doing, using our own.

Adipose derived stem cells here around nine years ago.

And they were quite effective in a very wide range of population.

And when you say adipose derived. You mean taken from the patient?

Taken from the patient. And actually the mom of one of my. The oldest employee that we have, who was at that time, she was 96 years old. She was the second patient that I, I did it on. Wow. And I got an amazing number of stem cells out of her fat. And she.

Oh, you took the stem cells out of the 96 year old?

Yeah. Oh, wow.

Or the fat out of the 96 year old?

Yeah, yeah. Usually in. In the flank.

Yeah.

And you know, with.

Obviously make her sound like a cow.

Jeez.

Well, from coming from Brooklyn, I didn't know about cows, so.

Yeah.

So. But we were able to get a sufficient amount and. And it doesn't hurt. What, you know, it's done under. And it's under local anesthesia. It doesn't hurt. But we've had, let's say, five years of experience with that. Completely safe. And the more cells you were able to derive and you could predict who, who would have low yields. The lowest yields were the. Were the people with diabetes really low?

Diabetes had the lowest.

Had the lowest yields. Because they have, I mean, however, whether it's type one or type two, they had the lowest yields. And that was just the learning from it. And. And then the high yields got better, longer effects. And then the FDA came in and said that the material we were using to digest the connective tissue off of the fat and then get the fat to release the stem cells was.

An intervention of some kind that went against their rules. So they put a hold on it. And then ultimately, five years, six years later, they lost that case.

From what I understand, the problem was they essentially were treating it, reviewing it as the creation of a pharmaceutical product.

Yeah. And of course.

It has no standardization. There's no way to standardize my, my fat cells with stem cells and yours. There's no way to standardize it. So they didn't like the whole concept of it. And so we then had to move on to other stem cell products. So we went through the whole gamut. And if you look at my formulary in the front of office, you'll see that we, we test a lot of different formulas. And so we went through. We went through them and came up with a few of the better ones, both on the whole cell side, the whole mesenchymal stem cell side. This is umbilical cord cells.

Fresh taken out of C section umbilical cords and then.

Set up and froze. You know, cultured and frozen. No, I mean, not cultured, but frozen.

And then Tested and so on. So, and then the problem. That was the first group that came up, and we tested and we found one or two of them beat the others. And so we focused only on those two.

And at that point, the exosomes came up. Exosomes are simply the small particles.

From which the whole stem cells communicate with. With their neighbors. So once they're infused into the body, one controversy is still out there that people think that stem cells given to you, either your own or someone else's, replicate in your body. And there's very little data that suggests that that happens.

The stem cells do not replicate in your body.

Not that I'm aware of.

Of. Why is that important?

Well, because it's not the way they operate.

Okay.

Yeah, they don't operate that way. They operate locally. When they're homed into an area that. That's a molecular signaling that the body produces, we don't produce it.

And we can mimic it by saying, if I, if I want to give, let's say, a cardiac patient stem cells intravenously, I will put.

The lasers, the laser pads on his chest.

Laser pads.

In this case, the same device that you had attached to yourself with the intravenous lasers also has a way to put them locally. Oh, and. And one of the ways that you can put them locally is with a pad.

So it's like a transdermal absorption of the wavelengths instead of.

You can. Yeah, because infrared. Infrared will be. Penetrate 10 centimeters. Yeah, so it will. So we've known that from the very beginning that.

In my laboratory at Johns Hopkins many years ago, we were leading in on the immunology side, and we were leading on the transplant side.

We started experimenting with how to get stem cells into the heart. And we realized that you didn't need to go an arterial route. You can go. Go a Venus route. You can, you can get them there that way. So we knew that that was still a good mechanism. And you can get them to stick there for 30 minutes. They'll. They'll probably preferentially stay there. The fact is, once, once you infuse stem cells into your body, they typically migrate to the lung, to the lung lymphatics, into the spleen until they're called on for a specific task.

And then when exosomes came forward, then we had a much easier approach to get the signaling molecules that they're using with the appropriate RNA signals into tissues that normally the larger stem cells would not be able to reach. And the most important of which is the blood brain barrier.

And so that's where you combine with exosomes to get the stem cells to go to places they normally wouldn't otherwise go.

Yeah, well, you don't need the stem cells anymore because these are products from the stem cells. So the exosomes come from activating your stem cells in vitro and then. And then collecting them and counting them and, and proving that they're sterile and so on, and then giving it to the patients. Now there's controversies in terms of how many of these stem cells do I have, how many of these exosomes do I have? The. The money, the, the number doesn't count. You can be off by a factor of a thousand and say, my stem cells, my exosomes have 15 billion and yours have 15 trillion. And the 15 billion work better. It's not the number because you can adapt the counting device to any range of size you wish and come up with a bigger number. So at the same time, there's a counting war going on. But the exosomes can travel, traverse very tiny spaces, and they can easily traverse the blood brain barrier. Easily traverse. Probably easier to traverse bone in terms of difficult areas to get into. So we now use both umbilical cord cells as well as exosomes. The science and the technology.

On the stem cell side is no clear arguments that the stem cell technology is better abroad than it is here.

Whether or not I like to use them with the lasers. But that's not a technology per se. It's not. We're not culturing them, we're not expanding them here in the United States. You can get that elsewhere. But when we had experience with culturing and expanding stem cells early on for the first several years and then giving them back to patients, we noticed that there was a differential between the activity level of the stem cells given fresh versus the activity level cultured. So it's not. It's not.

If you get five times more cells in the culture, it doesn't mean that it's five times more poisonous potent. Right? It may be, it may be better, but it may not. So it's not crystal clear to me that the number is important. It's the viability and the potency of the stem cells.

And if you had to choose, you care if you're using an umbilical source versus the patient's own stem cells, I.

Would, again, the older you are, the more, the better it is to use umbilical. We just have that experience that.

We could derive the effect that everyone was looking for with our own cells, typically, except when we got too Too low a number. And that, that the, the value of that.

Systemically was strong enough to be equivalent or as good, certainly as good as the umbilical cord cells or the exosomes that are derived from the umbilical cord cells.

Okay.

The trouble with it is, and this they have to be clear about is stem cells are not a panacea. They're, they're not the holy grail at this point in time.

They're mature enough, they're primitive, but they're mature enough that they can't become an organ system. And they can't, they're not primitive enough for that. And so they're not going to take you from kidney failure to normal kidneys and, or a second heart. It's not going to do that. At the same time.

They'Re the strongest type of treatment of its kind. So the strongest global reparative, global antioxidant, anti inflammatory therapy that we have. I don't want, I don't like, I won't waste it by coming to. You can't come to see us and just come in and get stem cells and leave. Right. I won't do it. You have to first give someone a month of, of gut repair, a month of hormone replacement, a month to get the signaling. Correct. Right.

And you don't want to basically put stem cells into an inflammatory messed up body or it's almost now they still work.

Interesting. Interestingly enough because we had a lot of clients that used to come from China before the pandemic and they were not interested in any anti aging strategies. They just wanted stem cells and they wanted stem cells they could trust. Yeah. So they would get that. And they were, they warned us clearly that they're not going to listen to anything else we're going to say. And then they'd complain about four months later, say the effects are gone. Maybe you sold us, maybe we didn't get the right thing. I said, well we told you exactly that that would happen because you can't go back and smoke and drink every night.

It'd be like the ganglion nerve block that we talked about and somebody hyper stressful lifestyle and using that as a band aid.

Right. So that, but that's in fact a reasonable way to go. It's not going to get you to live longer. But if you wanted to maintain that life, that ridiculous damage control, so to speak, control lifestyle, then you need to do it three or four times a year, period.

Yeah.

So, so then the question is who do we, who do we treat? So again, the, the diagnosis is for anti aging.

We treat people who have difficulty reaching their performance goals. Locally, the majority of folks that are above 60 don't reach their performance goals because they have a local issue that has to be taken care of. And again, it's either going to be taken care of. Now that's the reason I brought hydrodissection to Donatara because it's so profoundly, you know, not used.

Yeah.

And it's so potent. So for example, with.

With hydrodissection, there's nothing as good, as good as that for low back pain and, and upper neck pain and fingers and joints and smaller joints and so on just to be very, very, very precise.

The other way we sometimes need to use them for a large joint is to be able to place.

One of the Weber laser needles into the joint when we give the stem cells.

Oh, that's interesting.

So that's using both the lasers and the stem cells together at the same exact time. Do you have to use a larger needle? You have to know where you are. So it's better to do that under ultrasound guidance. Otherwise in the injection like we did four or five years ago, we did, we did it just with anatomical markers. We didn't need to go with that.

So. So basically if somebody wanted to feel really good, they were going to come in here. They do something like in addition to getting a diagnostic from you as far as bloods, you know, mold screening, the urine test, et cetera and a blood cell analysis, they do something very similar to the protocol that I'm on the tail end of today. It looks like that that nad is still dripping in as we talk. Something like ozone, vitamin C, B complex cocktails, phosphatidylcholine, antioxidants. And that would be like a protocol for somebody for like a gold standard full body health type of workout.

And understanding that someone at your age, if you wanted to do it more, you can. But you probably don't need to do the stem cell component more than once a year. It depends on how, how competitive an athlete you are today versus the way you used to be.

Yeah.

Three, four years, four years ago. But when you reach 60, 70, even 80 and you want to make, there's so much to pay back that the folks, the only folks that use the stem cells correctly are the ones that make a long term investment and say I need to do this every two months for the next 18 months to pay it back and then I can come in twice a year.

Yeah.

But without that it just now at the same time doing a lot of other things Making sure their hemoglobin A1C drops to 5.1, 5.2 and their C reactive protein goes down and, and they're repairing properly. The methylation is proper. They're their, their true age from the methylation test goes down. Right. Otherwise it's just a shot in the dark. And it's just, it makes you, makes people feel good, but it's not, it's not accomplishing what they, what they hope. Right. It just doesn't.

That makes sense.

Now you can, you can take someone with moderately severe hip arthritis or knee arthritis and delay, delay surgery with a single injection. If you want to avoid surgery, it's going to be a series of injections over 18 months. Once they get this to bone on bone, it's simply just delaying surgery. Yeah. You know, because you have to have, you have to buff them up for other reasons. Yeah. But that's the way it's poorly utilized. The, the. It's. It's something everyone wants to do.

Yeah. Yeah.

From a business standpoint, have you like branded the type of thing I'm doing today where. Let's say somebody listening to this podcast. Podcast, whether they live in the Bay Area where you're at, or freaking flying from China or whatever. Like if they call the office and they, and they ask to come in and just do like a full body, like feel good and also eradicate some, you know, viruses, mold, etc. Is there a name for the type of package that I was just doing today?

Well, I, I guess the name Super Special. Yeah, the name has been used by others, but it's like the whole. When, when someone like that wants to come in, I'll, I'll do that whole day or two days, one after one afternoon and one morning the next day with Dr. Tierney here.

Because we, we have to reorganize your. Reset your autonomic nervous system also to make sure that a single treatment will stick and you can go back home and don't have to worry about it for six months.

Yeah.

Or a year for that matter. But otherwise we can mimic the total body approach. Has been. That's being done elsewhere in the country. But we won't likely do it one day because I'm hermesis type of a guy and I just think it's too much.

It's a lot to do in a couple of days.

A lot to do. But unless you're super healthy, you'll get away with it. If you're not, you'll get sicker before.

You ever get better.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then afterwards, people Feel kind of run down from all the procedures. I mean, like, right now I feel like my energy is. Levels have gone up throughout the day, but I would imagine I'll probably sleep pretty well tonight.

Yes, you will sleep.

Yeah.

Well, tonight. Yeah.

Now, the URL is Anatara Medicine.

Yeah.com.

Yeah. Yeah. A N A T A R A Anatara. It's a Sanskrit word that means core. But typically when people misspell it, they'll get Antara, which is a hotel group in Asia.

Okay.

A luxury group.

Okay, well, good. That's at least good that it's not some fringe bed bugs and herpes in your bed sheets. Hotel. The thing is, also, you and I had another podcast I've alluded to a couple of times four years ago, where we talked about. Talked about food constitutional assessments and some of these other things that you do. If you're listening in right now, I recommend you go listen to that one too, because it would pair pretty well with this one as far as wrapping your head around some of the nutritional components and body typing components and the Chinese medical approach that Avi alluded to a while ago in this podcast. But what I'll do for everybody listening in is there's gonna be a bunch of videos, photos, really cool visuals that you guys can follow if you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com AV Anatara A N A T A R A. And in those show notes, I'll link to the previous podcast that Avi and I did as well, if you guys want to listen to that. And, man, it's pretty cool what you're doing. And I'm just super grateful to be able to cover it and open people up to these kind of procedures that can change their lives and make them feel a heck of a lot better.

The whole purpose of Anantara, when I first started it, was to figure out how to treat people who are overdone. I've been overdoing it for years. So for my group of people, it was social entrepreneurs that dealt with global health and had entities in Europe and in Asia. And we're up 247 and.

So. So the concept of having social entrepreneurs like yourself doing good things is the whole point of this. To optimize and do it in our way that's more international. Yeah. And more open to older stuff and not stuck with only. Only what's going on now. Yeah.

I've learned a new name for myself too today. Social entrepreneur.

Well, yeah, well, you know, you're, you're, you're for profit, but you're not motivated. But you're motivated by doing social good information. Yeah. Yeah.

I consider myself to be a teacher and a storyteller.

That's right. So when I consider myself a doctor and a philosopher. So that's the way it used to be. Yeah, you're right.

Well, Avi, you're a good man. Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.