The Ancient Seed That Amplifies Every Supplement You Take with Dr. Michael T. Murray

I've been studying herbal medicine and natural approaches to health and healing for 45 years now, and black seed is not a new thing. It's actually one of the oldest plant medicines ever used. There's one compound in particular that gets a lot of attention. It's called—

I do know that there's some pretty interesting studies on it.

It's great that it's finally getting the recognition that it deserves.

My guest on today's show is Dr. Michael Murray. We talk a lot about this stuff called black seed oil. He has received lifetime achievement awards from the Natural Products Association, Bastyr University, the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. He is himself a naturopathic physician. He has been named as the voice of natural medicine, and he's been doing this for over 45 years. He's got a ton of books and We are specifically diving into this compound he knows a lot about called thymoquin, which is derived from black seed oil. So, all the shownotes are going to be at BenGreenfieldLife.com/BlackSeedOil. That's BenGreenfieldLife.com/BlackSeedOil. Let's go talk to Dr. Michael Murray. Okay. So, Michael, I heard about black seed oil, I think, for the first time maybe 6 or 7 years ago. And, it was kind of described in the same category as some people describe bone broth, kind of a, what can't it do? Raises the dead. And, I'm like, oh, this is interesting stuff. And, I've come across it here and there since then, but I've never actually done a full podcast dedicated to what the heck black seed oil is, which I'm sure you and I will have a chance to discuss. But, what even turned your head about black seed oil in the first place?

Well, first of all, we got to talk about black seed. I've been studying herbal medicine and natural approaches to health and healing for 45 years now. And black seed is not a new thing. It's actually one of the oldest plant medicines ever used. It's really a gift from nature and we're going to get into it. And there's a lot of science behind it. And when we look at the chemical composition and the basic underlying aspects of its mechanisms of action, you're going to understand why it has this panacea-like effect and why it's so perfect as a natural approach to many of the ills of modern life.

So, was it something that you first got exposed to in med school or in your practice or what got you interested in it?

Oh, yeah. Again, this is one of the most historic plant medicines in the world. It's been a big part of the Ayurvedic and the Unani systems of medicine in the Middle East and India. And, it really is a very unique plant and these seeds are truly magical in what they're able to do. And, it's just an amazing history and it's been revered by so many cultures for so long that it's great that it's finally getting the recognition that it deserves.

Yeah. going to be curious about the research because people always push back. They're like, well, ancestral wisdom doesn't really mean much. So, I do know that there's some pretty interesting studies on it, which we'll get to. But, you mentioned, I said black seed oil, you said, well, the black seed is kind of where this starts. And then, you also mentioned the plant. So, walk me through this horticulturally or whatever. What is black seed oil in terms of the plant to the seed to the oil?

Yeah. Well, let's first talk a little bit about the oil is the valuable inside of the seed, but let's talk a little bit about kind of the reason why these seeds are black. First, I want to dispel something. Often, black seed is called black cumin, but it is not in the same family as the spice cumin. So, they're totally unrelated plants.

So, you're not getting black cumin at Taco Bell? It's not that cumin?

No, they're completely different. This is not a culinary spice. This is a valuable source of active plant compounds. And, I like to explain why the seeds are so black because that gives us a clue as to why it's such a valuable plant medicine. Just as a blueberry darkens to show its increase in biological activity, the black seed also represents really a treasure trove of plant compounds. The reason it's so black is because it contains these polyphenols that harden the case and protect the valuable inside components. These polyphenols are very similar to what we see in green tea and chocolate and many of the other compounds, but they're a little more powerful in their antioxidant effect. Have you ever been to the Middle East, Ben?

Yeah, I have.

So, you would describe it out in the wild as a very harsh environment. You've got high heat, low humidity, and a lot of sunlight.

Yeah. I mean, unless you're indoor skiing at the mall in Dubai, yes.

Exactly. Well, these plants have to reproduce and the Nigella sativa plant relies on these seeds that house the embryo, all the reproductive components of the plant inside that seed. So, that seed is a protective shield against oxidative damage, ultraviolet light, and kind of the higher temperatures of that environment. So, this plant is really quite unique and it is the darkest black you'll ever see. It's matte black and it is just dark.

Wait, do you mean the plant is black or the seed is black?

Just the seeds. And, those seeds, they have to be able to be viable to have a new plant form for months, if not longer. And so, this seed is designed to be able to reproduce. And, inside that seed are a number of highly active compounds. There's one compound in particular that gets a lot of attention. It's called thymoquinone.

Thymo, like T-H, thymoquinone?

Thymoquinone. It's referred to as the principal bioactive, but This plant is remarkable in its composition. One of the things that got me so passionate about natural medicine is I like to experience the feelings of awe. I like to be overwhelmed with just recognizing the beauty and harmony of nature. And so, my life has been a life of discovery and There's so many things that are so wondrous about plant medicines and this plant in particular is very unique and its composition is very unique. There was a recent study that looked at 5 different spices and they found that there was synergy among each of them and that combined they produced a true synergistic effect where 1 plus 1, in this case, 5 ones doesn't equal 5, it equaled like 50. And, I looked at that study, I looked at the composition of those plants and I went, wow, all of these sorts of compounds are within the black seed. We have a wide range of active compounds. Typically, we don't see all of these in one plant, but It has these quinones, it has these terpenes, it has saponins, sterols, it has polyphenols, it has phytosterols, it has a whole bevy of these active compounds. And, what the research is showing is that there's a synergy among all of these compounds. So, even though thymoquinone gets the most attention, What's really important is that we have the full spectrum of these active compounds. And, I'm going to be talking about Thymoquin, which is the only USP monographed approved form of black seed oil on the market. Now, I'll explain what's different about it from the very seeds to the quality control processes throughout.

Okay, got it. Yeah, yeah, I am curious about that one. That's the bottle I think I have in my fridge right now that I got from your website. Before that though, it's kind of funny, you're the second person I think ever on the show to bring up that 5-spice study or research. Dr. John Douillard from Boulder, the Ayurvedic doc down there, he's also described— he's been on the show a couple of times and he's described that also. A lot of these Ayurvedic docs I talk to, they're into spices and herb combinations. We started this podcast Inside baseball for folks listening in, like 15 minutes late because I was getting my sons out the door to fly to Phoenix because our dentist, Dr. Nico Loud, who lives in Phoenix, she's an Ayurvedic doctor and a dentist. And so, she uses a lot of these herbs and spices in not only her teeth care protocols but her cooking. And so, I have an appreciation for Ayurvedic medicine for sure. This thymoquinone, I'm assuming that the name Thymoquin, the form of the black seed oil capsules that you have, is named that because it's got thymoquinone in it?

Yes, it's standardized at 3% thymoquinone, but it contains the full array of plant compounds natural to the seed. It's not an extract, it's a cold-pressed oil. And, it's a cold-pressed oil from a specially bred form of black seed. I know you're familiar with lycopene, correct?

With lycopene, you mean from tomatoes?

Yeah. So, the commercial product—

Great for the prostate, right?

Yeah, yeah. And, skin cancer and heart health and a long list of other things. But, lycopene was developed as a dietary supplement In a way that parallels how black seed was developed as a dietary supplement. And both were developed by basically the same research team, the same 4 people. And what they did in the case of lycopene is they bred tomatoes for years to try to increase the lycopene content with— and then they eventually developed a process to extract and concentrate lycopene. And that became a very popular dietary supplement. Black seed is is a plant that can grow and have varying amounts of thymoquinone and other active compounds. What the company did behind thymoquin was they bred black seeds so that they would produce a standardized level of The thymoquinone as well as all the other key components. This is critical because the therapeutic efficacy of any natural product is based upon delivering an effective dose. And if we're taking a natural product and there's a varying level of these active compounds, we're never going to get a consistent effect. So, the ability to standardize black seed oil for these active compounds began with making sure that the seed would be able to be standardized. And, that's what they did over a period of several years. And, that's really the source and one of the big advantages with Thymoquin. Thymoquin is standardized not only for the thymoquinone, but it also has a low level of these free fatty acids. And, this is what really separates it from other black seed oils. We see on the marketplace higher concentrations of thymoquinone, and I'll explain later why this is actually potentially detrimental to your health.

The higher concentrations would be more detrimental?

Yes. We're going to get into some very interesting effects that we see with varying concentrations of thymoquinone. on our microbiome. This is a very strong antimicrobial compound. Wait, wait.

Are you hinting at the same idea behind not overdosing with something like berberine that you can actually deleteriously impact the microbiome balance by overuse of a plant-based antimicrobial?

Correct. But, berberine is a little bit different. One of the things that is kind of lost in modern pharmacology is what's called a eubiotic effect, which means that in the case of berberine and also to a degree the same thing with thymoquinone, a compound can have an antibiotic effect against pathogens while at the same time actually promoting the growth of Health-promoting bacteria. We're going to go into that and some of the research that's been done with thymoquin on the gut microbiome. But, my key point is that there's a big difference in the marketplace between thymoquin and other black seed oils. And, that's one of the reasons why I brought it into my own product line. It was the first dietary supplement I launched in my own product line. And, I did so because I wanted to to get the word out on this very important form of black seed oil.

Okay. So, when I look at the label and I see standardized for 3% thymoquinone, what you're saying is that if a product is not standardized or perhaps has a higher percentage of thymoquinone that there might be a diminishing return?

The most recent study with Thymoquin kind of flushed out some of the the earlier studies, and what they showed was that depending upon the dosage of thymoquinone in a black seed oil, it can have a very beneficial effect on our gut microbiome or potentially a very negative effect. And so the Concentration is the key. And, what we see is if you have a dosage of thymoquin between 250 and 1,000 milligrams per day, you're going to see a decrease in potentially pathogenic bacteria while you'll also see an increase in certain probiotic or health-promoting bacteria.

Okay. And, quick question, by the way. You said 250 to 1,000 mg. In one of those softgel capsules in your bottle, how many milligrams are there?

500 milligrams.

500. Okay.

That's kind of the sweet spot.

So, if you take 500 milligrams once or twice a day, make sure that second dose is later in the day so you're not giving your microbiome too much By the way, this is really good to know for me, not to sound like a total idiot, but opening the kimono on this, I have a bottle, I've been experimenting with it. And, well, it's Monday this week, but last week, I wanted to see how it felt to take 4 capsules a day and I was taking all 4 at once. That was foolhardy then.

Something I wouldn't recommend on a long-term basis, but it might—

And, I can tell you just real quick in my defense, the reason I did it was I was reading the study on cortisol and stress management and I specifically was doing it prior to my afternoon. In the afternoon, I take a siesta or a nap and I'm like, I wonder if this will just totally just de-stress me and knock me out. And, it does feel very stress-relieving. But, it sounds like I shouldn't do it in that amount due to the effect on the microbiome.

Yeah. It's really quite interesting because with a lot of these supplements that we take, you really can't take too much and there are built-in safeguards in our body that prevent any toxicity. These volatile compounds are a little bit different. Yeah, the science of black seed oil is evolving. In the last Probably 40 years. There's been over 1,000 studies. We have over 100 double-blind placebo-controlled studies now with black seed oil of various qualities. So, it's kind of a mixed bag, very little quality control with some of these. So, if you're looking at the literature, you're going to see dosages all over the place. But, what we will see in the future are more well-defined Preparations of black seed oil like thymoquin, much like we've seen that with other plant medicines. You know, I ushered in the use of standardized extracts in North America back in the 1980s. It was one of my, you know, one of my defining accomplishments. Nobody understood the importance of using analytical methods to make sure that each dosage of ginkgo or St. John's wort or saw palmetto would provide a standardized level of key markers or active compounds. So, we'll see that same sort of thing happen with black seed oil. It's just in its infancy. And, as I said earlier, right now, Thymoquin is the only USP-approved that follows the USP monogram for black seed oil.

So, just out of curiosity because it sounds like you're the guy to ask about standardized extracts, When someone sees something like that on a bottle, like yours says standardized for the 3% thymoquinone, is that determined via mass spectrometry or some type of other measurement like a lab-based measurement?

Nowadays, mainly by various forms of HPLC.

That's high-something liquid chromatography. What's the P?

Yeah, very sophisticated analytical methods which really ushered in this renaissance of herbal medicine. Because we've seen an evolution in our understanding of how these compounds work in our body. Many things that were kind of tossed aside years ago as being not very active was because our measures of activity were so crude and unsophisticated. But as modern pharmacology has evolved, we've rediscovered the power of nature. Now, one of the things that we're seeing in the marketplace, Ben, we see a lot of adulteration in natural products and there are adulterated black seed oil products out there, but there's easy ways of determining them. Typically, you'll see a very high thymoquinone content and it's not on the label or anything, but you'll see a low or complete absence of a compound called paraxymene or P-cymene. This is a compound that's kind of in parallel in concentration to thymoquinone. And, if a product doesn't have any, it means that It was likely spiked with synthetic thymoquinone to get that label claim.

Oh, so you can synthesize thymoquinone without necessarily extracting it from the— what's it called? The Nigella sativa plant?

Correct. And so, that's not going to provide the same benefits. And, one of the things that's really detrimental to the activity of thymoquinone is the presence of what are called free fatty acids. So, Thymoquinone is standardized to contain less than 2% of these free fatty acids. And, the reason is that if a product is too high, research shows— in free fatty acids, research has shown that it is not as bioactive. The lower that free fatty acid content, the more active the thymoquinone becomes.

That's interesting. Do you think that's because of some type of a lipid binding with the elevated FFA I think it has to do with the—

this is a very volatile compound. And remember, going back to why these seeds are so black, it's to protect against— one of the things it's protecting it against is oxidative damage. And we know that unsaturated fats can become easily oxidized and that can destroy the thymoquinone.

Okay, got it. That makes sense. Okay. So, you're looking for a low FFA concentration, standardized for a certain percentage of thymoquinone. And then, when you look at the actual research on this stuff, I mean, we brought up favorable impacts on the microbiome. I gave a brief head nod to the cortisol and stress management piece. What else do you see as far as— I mean, obviously, if there's hundreds of studies, we don't have to go through every one, but what really stands out as far as the effects or what someone should expect if they were taking in that? 250 to 1,000 mg range.

Your audience is well aware of adaptogens, things like ashwagandha, ginseng—

Yeah, rhodiola, shilajit. Yeah.

Okay. This is the most powerful adaptogen when we look at its effects on cortisol. Cortisol, the stress hormone. Studies with thymoquin shows that in highly stressed individuals, it can reduce that cortisol level by 22 to 44%. That blows away ashwagandha and any other adaptogen. It is very powerful. And, when we start looking at its overall effects, we start seeing all sorts of possible applications. I do want to highlight that historically in both Ayurveda and Unani, black seed was primarily used for digestive complaints. And, I'm curious if you noticed a warmth or any sort of changes when you were taking that 2-gram dose of—

No, I think I probably had a little bit of the black seed oil burp effect a little later. It has a very unique flavor. That might also be because one of the ways that I'll analyze the quality of a fish oil if I'm trying a new brand is I will literally chew it and see if I get a strong fishy taste, in which case there's a likelihood that it's oxidized. So, Most days that I took it last week, I actually chewed your capsules to see if there was any type of rancid or off effect. All I could do was just taste the black seed oil. But no, nothing crazy as far as a warmth in the digestive tract, although I wasn't looking for it either, so I'll pay more attention this week.

Sometimes people have to kind of build up a tolerance to it. They'll notice it's not an uncomfortable feeling, but they'll notice it. And, I think it's because My feeling is what it's doing is it's activating the lining. You know, one of the interesting microbiome effects, just as a side note, is it has no negative effect on Akkermansia. So, this is very important for metabolic health. And, I said earlier that the composition of this seed oil is perfect for addressing many of the issues that people are dealing with in modern society. Basically, the key one being poor metabolic health. So, if we look at some of the basic underlying mechanisms of action, Ben, we can understand the possible application. We hear the term antioxidant a lot, but a lot of these plant components, it doesn't matter that they have direct antioxidant effects. You're not going to achieve concentrations in your body that's going to reflect that antioxidant effect.

Yeah.

We see that with a lot of the flavonoids. It just can't— yes, in test tube studies, they show antioxidant effect, but that's not the way they exert antioxidant effects in our body.

Right. In the body, you're not necessarily swimming a cell culture in a high concentration of antioxidants. Or, there's just lack of tissue penetration, right? There's a reason that antioxidants are protective against atherosclerosis because oxidized LDL in the heart is not something that antioxidants can actually get to from a tissue level. So yeah, there's a definite difference between the in vitro cell culture versus what's going on in the body.

Correct. So, the way in which thymoquin activates our antioxidant system is through the Nrf2 system. So, this is our body's own antioxidant-generating Genetics. And so, when we ingest black seed oil, it increases the body's production of antioxidant enzymes and this helps protect every cell. The anti-inflammatory activity is also very significant with black seed oil. It has been shown in various studies and there's been a great meta-analysis looking at its anti-inflammatory And it exerts anti-inflammatory effects by addressing one of the key enzymes or signaling pathways of inflammation, NF-kappaB. And this action means that it's going to help lower C-reactive protein and many other markers of inflammation, which some of the studies have shown. It also enhances mitochondrial function. We've talked about improving the health of the microbiome. Now, as it relates to metabolic health, this is a very powerful AMPK activator. And, I hope your audience is familiar with this signaling pathway. This is our master control of insulin sensitivity, mitochondrial formation and function, and lipid metabolism.

Right. Often triggered through fasting, exercise, et cetera.

Exactly. Intermittent fasting. And there's a whole list of dietary factors that influences including things that kind of block it like a high bad fat diet and high sugar intake and low intake of a lot of these plant chemicals or plant compounds. So, through activating the AMPK system, We're going to help with insulin metabolism, cholesterol metabolism, and weight loss, all of which are supported with clinical studies with black seed oil. And the last one— oh, the last one I know is something that you're obviously aware of, and that is its ability to improve the utilization of nitric oxide, which helps improve blood flow. And if you improve blood flow, Go a long way in improving the health of that particular tissue. And, we see good activation of endogenous nitric oxide. Yeah.

I also wanted to ask you because I saw a study on the antifungal properties. Obviously, that's a little bit related to the microbiome. A lot of people now deal with Candida, right? They'll get a gut test and they'll see that they have some type of a fungal overgrowth or they'll get a whatever, like a metabolomics or a NutrEval and see high fungal markers. When it comes to black seed oil, do you know if it's kind of like a nuclear bomb on Candida, if it's specific against specific species, or what's its function as an antifungal?

So, we go back to the basic role of these volatile compounds in the seed, and that is to protect That embryo so that it can reproduce. And, it protects powerfully against fungal infections, which is the primary pathogen to plants like Nigella sativa. So, it has very good broad-spectrum antifungal activity.

Okay.

And again, I think if we look at its microbiome effects, it's going to help It exerts this what's called eubiotic effect. And, it's just a beautiful differentiation compared to conventional antifungals or antibiotics.

Yeah, a little bit of a doctrine of signatures type of effect going for it in that plants grown in very hardy environments often do tend to be these adaptogens that when you consume them, Now, not to get all esoteric and woo-woo and hippie, but they seem to be able to pass on some of those properties such as increased antioxidant production to human beings who consume them. I mean, this is something I covered way back in the day, probably 15 years ago on the podcast when I interviewed Joe Robinson who wrote a book called something like Eat on the Wild Side, who even stressed the importance of ripping up the plants in your refrigerator, like a few hours before you eat them if you want to maximize their antioxidant production because they think they're being eaten and then they step up the antioxidant production. So, she's like, rip up your kale the night before you make a kale salad. But, this idea that plants that have been subjected to stress in nature seem to pass on some sort of adaptogenic resilience property to a human being is fascinating. I think sometimes laughed at by modern medicine. But, I mean, there is a little bit of kind of cool ancient wisdom there.

Amen. On a side note, I want to come back and do a program talking about the real validity of organic foods because what you're hitting on in terms of response to stress is entirely different between an organically grown food and one grown conventionally. If we look at the tomato, for example, that was the first use of kind of GMO that was to breed tomatoes that would be resistant to Roundup. And when you look at the chemical composition with the nutrients, there's no difference. But when we look at the phytochemicals, it's completely different. So, we don't have the same sort of flavonoids in that tomato that's grown conventionally that we do organically. And I believe that that's really the— I've never heard anyone else really talk about it in any depth. And I just want to put that in your bonnet there and have it buzz around a little bit because I'd like to get the word out because there are benefits to organic foods, but they're not related to differences in nutritional value per se. The difference in phytochemical composition.

Yeah, that's interesting. And, the breeding or I guess the genetic modification of something like a tomato for Roundup resistance is different than the selective breeding for lycopene concentration that you were talking about earlier, right? I just want to make sure people understand the difference between the two.

Right. It's conventional breeding. And, all of our plant foods have been bred. I mean, the original carrot was an inch long and was black. Now, we got these big ones and—

Yeah, can't make much carrot cake out of that.

No. So anyway, one of the other real amazing things about thymoquin is it has an ability to increase the actions of many other nutritional compounds. And this is really interesting because I'm not aware of anything else that's been discovered that has this effect. For example, It's been shown to potentiate the actions of fish oil. It's been shown to increase the anti-inflammatory effects of astaxanthin and lutein. With pycnogenol, these proanthocyanidins that we get from pine bark or as well grapeseed extract, 20 times greater anti-inflammatory effect when it's combined with thymoquin. And it also increases the effects of vitamin D. in terms of activating these vitamin D receptors. So, I think it's going to be a very valuable way to kind of enhance the value of many of these compounds that we ingest as dietary supplements as well as parts of our food.

Yeah. The only thing I've come across that's a complementary cofactor like that would be the humic and fulvic acid you get from soil-based minerals. seem to have a little bit of a similar effect in terms of absorption and increased bioavailability of something that you might co-consume with them, which is super interesting. But, you brought up the vitamin D piece, which kind of makes me— hopefully, this isn't too much of a curveball of a question, but bear with me here momentarily. When you look at a lot of the darkly pigmented compounds that we find in the plant kingdom, such as cyanobacteria from chlorella or spirulina or sometimes even synthetic compounds like, say, methylene blue or dark compounds like shilajit. There's an entire book, it was translated from Russian. I read it a couple years ago. It's called The Human Photosynthesis. And, it gets into the idea that these darkly pigmented compounds basically serve as sort of an acceptor of photonic energy like from sun or from red light. And that in doing so, they can assist with splitting a water molecule. So, if you think of photons of light splitting a water molecule and let's say there's 2 water molecules, well, if you split that water molecule, you get 4 hydrogens, 4 electrons, And, 2 oxygens. And so, the idea, the general takeaway here without getting deep into the chemistry is that by consuming certain darkly pigmented compounds of the plant kingdom and then exposing yourself to red light, you can photosynthesize a little bit like a plant in terms of producing a few extra electrons for the electron transport chain. Have you ever thought about black seed oil and whether it might have some kind of a pigmentation effect like that?

It's hard to say, right? I mean, these These polyphenols that are in it are generally regarded as not being that biologically active in lieu of the entire seed, but I think that they definitely contribute. And, you'll see with black seed oil, it's dark, it's very dark.

Yeah, yeah, interesting.

I think there's got to be some health benefits there. I'm very interested in what you're talking about. And, I think it doesn't have to be reproducing photosynthesis, even generating ionic hydrogen is going to have a lot of benefits.

Right, yeah.

And, I think what you're doing right now is the best way to do that because our heart is not 4 chambers, it's a vortex and it generates this great flood of hydrogen ions with every beat. So, the more we make that work, the more hydrogen we have.

Right, right, which produces the actual electrical field to allow fluid to move into small capillaries. Whereas, from a pure physics standpoint, the pumping or contracting action of the heart wouldn't be nowhere near enough to actually get that amount of blood into the capillaries and back out. That's the whole thesis of Dr. Thomas Cowan's book, The Heart Is Not a Pump, which is a great read. Speaking of the heart, you mentioned the effects on nitric oxide. Do you know of any clinical translation of that into black seed oil having an effect on blood pressure?

Yes. Black seed has very good effects on blood pressure. And, thymoquinone is— this was just an open-label study but was shown to have a good effect on helping improve blood sugar control. But, there are good studies with black seed oil in helping improve cardiovascular function including regulation of blood pressure.

And then, back to the cortisol piece. Have you either anecdotally with patients or in research or elsewhere seen what the impact on cortisol translates to as far as anything like And common measurements of relaxation or nervous system such as HRV or sleep parameters, anything along those lines?

Yeah. And, there's actually clinical studies with black seed oil on sleep enhancement and the benefits of anti-stress effects. And, it is interesting. I wear an Oura Ring I have great sleep. And anecdotally, I know that my sleep improved significantly when I started adding thymoquin to my program.

Yeah, interesting. One other question about the thymoquin, as far as the delivery mechanism, like the soft gel capsules, is there a reason that those were chosen or anything special about the capsules themselves?

Yeah. So, you might think, well, wouldn't it be better just to Provide the liquid black seed oil.

I was kind of thinking that, like just pour it on a salad or whatever.

Yeah. Well, you said you bit one open. Do you think many people would take a teaspoon of that?

No, I'm one of those guys who just like dry powders, pre-workouts. And yeah, I hear you. Yeah.

It is strong. This is strong. These are really pungent volatile compounds and it's just not possible. There are companies out there doing it, but we couldn't do that with With thymoquin, the concentration of these volatiles is just too high. Plus, they're better protected in that soft gel environment.

Hey, I got to ask you because you'd be considered kind of a natural guy when it comes to supplementation medicine. I mean, the tagline on your website is natural health backed by science. And then, there's this kind of whole movement of largely regenerative medicine and biohacking that's focused on stem cells and peptides and exosomes. Where do you fall on stuff like that, like the things that might be considered more, I don't know, maybe synthetic in some cases even though things like BPC-157 are made in the body, but just this seemingly new movement that's kind of being tacked on to the same old supplements industry that has existed for a long time?

Yeah, I don't utilize any of those approaches, stem cells, peptides, or exosomes. I'm 68 years old. I just had my 50th high school class reunion 2 weeks ago. I've lived this life and I'm in phenomenal health, have great energy. You know, I've made a lot of good healthy decisions for a long time and I think I've lived the life. And if I was looking, if I was a person wanting to live a long healthy life, I would listen to me. And I'm gonna give a plug to a free program on my website, Ben. It's called Thrive. And this is a free program. It's a 21-day program designed to help people create habits that will help them to thrive in life. I put this out there as part of my legacy. And, it really defines the key points that I follow to live life in really a powerful meaningful way. And, I want to pass that on.

That's awesome. I'll link to your website, by the way. If you're listening, go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/BlackSeedOil and I'll link to all the resources that Dr. Murray and I talk about. I got to ask just shifting away from supplements here, What do you do for your movement/exercise protocol?

I do something every day. I lift weights or I do functional training. 2 days a week, I focus on upper body. 2 days a week, I focus on lower body. My cardio is generally with just walking to the gym and doing abdominal work. I get bodywork probably 2 to 3 times a week and I've done that for 40 years, Ben. I'm talking about Thai massage, deep tissue massage, manipulative therapies. I really think that it's important that we take care of our structure.

Underrated. So, I don't do exactly what you do, but I have 15 minutes every morning that is completely devoted to foam rolling and self-inflicted deep tissue work and mobility. And then, twice a month massage, like a good one, like 90 minutes to 2 hours.

Yeah. As I've gotten older, I've really dedicated myself to more Thai massage and deep tissue massage and mechanical therapies just to keep my posture and my flexibility And, I play golf and I've been playing golf since I was 32. And, it's nice to be playing good golf at an advanced age. My handicap over the last couple years has been the lowest it's ever been. Some of my buddies that are my age that used to just kick my ass, the role is reversed. So, I'm very happy about that.

Okay. So, one other question back to black seed oil. Let's say somebody's like, okay, I want to try this stuff, add it into the protocol, maybe do a little self-quantification on lipids or metabolic markers just to see what changes. You mentioned if you were going to take more than 500, splitting up the dose into a couple during the day. But, ideal wave a magic wand scenario, when during the day should someone take black seed whether it's once or twice?

I take it twice a day. I take it in the morning. I have a few supplements that I take in the morning on an empty stomach and I include my thymoquin in that. And then, I take the majority of my supplements later in the day. Usually, I do intermittent fasting. So, generally, at my first major meal, I'll take all my supplements at once. I'm not worried about interactions. But, with the thymoquin, I want to take it with all my supplements, the bulk of my supplements because I told you it helps all of these cells.

Yeah, that's super good to know.

Yeah. And, I have my supplement program that I follow on my website because people always ask me what do I take. And, you'll see that I take a lot of plant compounds and these are—

Yeah, I believe it.

Yeah. It's not a matter of vitamins and minerals and essential nutrients. That's important. You got to have that foundation. And, I know a lot of people think, oh, I'm only going to eat whole foods. Well, You got to look at some of these compounds as being really concentrated sources of food, and thymoquinone is a great example of that.

Well, I'm super glad to have discovered it. Those 2 bottles you sent me, I'm keeping them in the refrigerator. I assume that's just a little bit better for anything that's got fats and stuff in it. Anyways though, so I'm taking it every day and I've got my next blood test coming up In 2 weeks. So, we'll see what changed, but I'll keep you posted. And, I really appreciate you filling everybody in on the Thymoquin.

Thank you. And, just some things to look for. I don't know if you ever do salivary cortisol, but that's a measure that you see really quick results with Thymoquin. Some blood pressure measurements, heart rate variability, you can see some changes.

I got HRV going here. I've got blood pressure going on this On this little ring. So, got both of those.

Yeah. And then, the big one in the blood test that I want people to really pay attention is that C-reactive protein because you see really good reductions. And, my C-reactive protein is about as close to zero as you can get and it's been that way for a lot of years. So, I didn't see much change. But, in people that have higher levels of CRP, they should see some improvement with Okay, man, that's a low CRP.

You got to golf harder.

Yeah, here we go.

Alright, well, cool. I'll put a link to all this, folks. If you're listening in, go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/BlackSeedOil. That's BenGreenfieldLife.com/BlackSeedOil. I'll link to Michael's website, this supplement called Thymoquin, and everything else that we discussed on the show. And, I hope you have an incredible day. Do you want free access to comprehensive shownotes, my weekly roundup newsletter, cutting-edge research and articles, top recommendations from me for everything that you need to hack your life, and a whole lot more? Check out BenGreenfieldLife.com. It's all there. BenGreenfieldLife.com. See you over there. Most of you who listen don't subscribe, like, or Rate this show. If you're one of those people who do, then huge thank you. But here's why it's important to subscribe, like, and/or rate this show. If you do that, that means we get more eyeballs, we get higher rankings, and the bigger the Ben Greenfield Life show gets, the bigger and better the guests get, and the better the content I'm able to deliver to you. So, hit subscribe, leave a ranking, leave a review if you got a little extra time. It means way more than you might think. Thank you so much.