Why Millions Of People Are Paying To Suffer Through Ice, Fire, Electricity, Barbed Wire, Mud &...

Hey all you crazy masochists, you're going to dig this one. This podcast is about why millions of people are basically paying lots of money, including myself, to suffer through ice and fire and electricity and barbed wire and mud and more. It's with this guy who put out one of the only documentaries I watched last year that I really liked. So you're gonna dig this one. But before we jump in, I want to tell you about how to crank your muscle gains to relatively new heights by flooding them without increasing your protein int by a single gram with a whole crap pola of amino acids. So there is this package and it's called the MassZymes package. It's a 1, 2 workout combo. So it starts off with something called P3OM, which is a protein digesting probiotic. It's actually one of the most potent protein digesting probiotics in the world. So that breaks down the proteins and then there's this stuff called masszymes that it comes along with because the proteolytic enzymes in mass zymes combine with these probiotics to break down proteins and deliver them to your muscles very, very quickly. I mean, I've seen the videos on their website and I'll give you the website URL in a second. You can sprinkle this stuff on a steak and watch the steak dissolve. So it enhances your immune system, it clears away undigested protein in your gut. It can even improve focus and mental clarity because all your neurotransmitters are made with, you guessed it, amino acids. So anyways, it's probiotics and digestive enzymes combine together. Super unique approach to protein digestion. It's called bioptimizer. And to get some for yourself, you go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com Biopt that's B I O P T. BenGreenfieldFitness.com biopt as in bioptimizers. And you get 10% off automatically, no code required. And that'll get you the mass times. That'll get you P3OM probiotic. Sounds like a robot out of Star Wars. P3OM. Get it baby. Combine it with mass times. This podcast is also brought to you by Gains Wave. Gains Wave rocks.

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In this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Show.

We don't really have jobs where we're building things and seeing results and feeling that sense of gratitude and competence that you feel when you achieve something great that maybe you didn't think you were able to do. So I think that's driving a lot of people in general and, you know, who doesn't want to be outside playing in mud? I think it appeals to that child in all of us. And even like Hunter McIntyre, who is featured in the film, and I know you, you know him well, and he is definitely, I would say, maybe the world's best obstacle racer. But before that, he was, you know, the world's best party boy. And, you know, he found a way to channel his energy.

He's an expert in human performance and nutrition, voted America's top Personal trainer and one of the globe's most influential people in health and fitness. His show provides you with everything you need need to optimize physical and mental performance. He is Ben Greenfield.

Power.

Speed, mobility, balance, whatever it is for you, that's the natural movement. Get out there. When you look at all the studies done, studies that have shown the greatest efficacy.

All the information you need in one place right here, right now on the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast.

Hey, folks, it's Ben Greenfield. And last year I was in San Francisco. I raced the AT&T Spartan Stadium race in San Francisco. By the way, if you've never. If you've never done a stadium race, you need to add that to your bucket list because you basically run around stadium seats carrying sandbags and doing an ungodly number of exercises until you at some point cross the finish line of a baseball field or a football field. It's a ton of fun. We might even delve more into that on today's show. But anyways, after I went to that race in San Francisco, I took my wife and my boys to a private screening of, I guess one of the only movies I saw during the entire year last year. I'm not much of a Hollywood guy, and one of my secrets to extreme productivity is that I'm actually pretty much an idiot when it comes to anything going on in the TV or movie world. And actually, this wasn't even a movie. It was a documentary. And funny enough, documentaries are a genre that I really only tap into when my assistant sends me an audio download of some documentary that somebody tells me I must see. And then what I do is I listen to it while I'm out, like walking through the forest or working out. And I kind of imagine what's going on during all those awkward pauses where I would imagine something's happening visually in the documentary, but I'm only listening to it. And I'm sure that as a, as a filmmaker, my guest on today's show would. Would probably, probably throttle me for that practice. But either way, that's the way I usually get through documentaries. But I went to this screening of this movie, and I walked out of the screening really, really impressed, which is saying a lot for a guy who basically eschews TV and movies highly. I laughed during it. I got inspired. I was on the edge of my seat and my kids were actually howling with laughter, too. And my wife actually loved it. Not that my wife and I disagree on every movie, but let's just say that when it comes to Hollywood and TVs, we generally have differing opinions on many things, but we as a family absolutely love the whole thing. So what did we see? Well, it was called the Rise of the Sufferfest. Yes, the Rise of the Sufferfest. And what this thing is about is it was about the global obstacle course phenomenon and in a really kind of entertaining and funny way explores like the history of obstacle course racing and the psychology behind it and the personalities that drive it and what it says about the world that we're living in. And I'm going to put the trailer for this documentary for you over on the show. Notes for Today's show at BenGreenfieldFitness.com SufferfestMovie that's where you can grab the shownotes BenGreenfieldFitness.com sufferfestMovie and the guy who directed it is named Scott Keneally. And leading up to that documentary, I'd met Scott at a few different obstacle course races. He's this crazy guy with like long hair and covered in tattoos and he's a self proclaimed beta male who did his first tough mudder back in 2011. And I kind of want to go into his history of OCR and kind of how he got into it, which we'll do in today's podcast. But prior to that, Scott was basically a writer. I know he, he wrote for the New York Times style section, did some stuff for Outside magazine, and had done some speaking stuff up to the point of making this movie, but in the past had worked with folks in music videos and commercials and writing. So I know he has kind of a little bit of a different history that goes way above and beyond just Spartan racing and obstacle course racing that we'll get into today. But in today's show, we're going to dive into this movie and why it is that folks are running around paying, paying a lot of money in many cases to suffer through ice and fire and electricity and barbed wire and mud and all other manner of masochistic things like why this is going on, what you can learn about it, and why, if you haven't yet done an obstacle coursing race, you should probably consider it. And if you already have done one, why the heck you did one. So, Scott, welcome to the show, man.

Thanks. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, well, it's a pleasure to have you. And I guess I'm curious, did you always want to do this, like make a movie?

Well, always. Growing up, I always wanted to become the President of the United States.

No way.

A Republican president.

Me too.

Actually.

I Didn't even make a decision on whether I wanted to be the Republican or the Democrat, but that was, like, I legitimately wanted to be the. I don't know how serious you were. You know, like, some kids kind of sort of off the cuff say they want to be a fireman or a police officer or the president. But I, like, seriously, like, I bought books on constitutional law and stuff when I was a kid, thinking I could be the president.

I, I was very serious about it, and, you know, it actually informed many of my decisions. Throughout high school, I was a bit of a teetotaler. And then I went to Boston College and, you know, hoped to go into law, and, and then, you know, I discovered some, some things that reshuffled my deck and, and I wanted to become a writer. Suddenly I found Kerouac. I found certain kinds of hallucinogenic drugs. You know, it just kind of sent me in a totally different direction and. Sorry, Ma. It's worked out pretty well.

Sorry, Ma. Yeah, actually, you know what? We probably shouldn't just, like, skim over that, that hallucinogenic drug thing, because it happens to a lot of people. You know, like, I've actually in, in the past few years. I grew up, like, super clean, right? Like, I was homeschooled out in the backwoods of North Idaho. And, you know, my, my idea of a hallucinogenic drug would have been like, you know, a shot of, of whiskey. But you actually changed up your idea of wanting to be a president. Wanting to be the president that is, the Republican president, based on drugs that you experienced at Boston College.

Yeah, I, you know, I, I, I went in very, very conservative, and, you know, I found some people and discovered drugs and, and I, you know, would always use it as a tool. And it, it really kind of opened my mind and no longer did I want to, you know, it just changed me in so many ways. And I really found a passion for music in a way that I had, and I found a passion for writing. I really got into literature and, and, you know, the vagabond lifestyle. And after school, you know, told my parents I was going to move to California to become a writer, and they were like, do you mean a waiter?

Usually it's both. Right?

Yeah, exactly. And I got lucky. I found a production company that was looking for someone who had ideas for music videos. And I've ever since made a living writing music videos for Katy Perry, Miley Cyrus and car commercials. And so I have a freelance gig writing, working with directors, coming up with ideas for Videos and commercials. And then I also write humor essays, as you alluded to, for the New York Times. And I, you know, I like writing, you know, confessional essays about my insecurities. I've confessed to being a chronic bedwetter in Jane magazine and my sweaty armpits in New York Times.

Chronic? You mean, like, when you're adult, you were a bedwetter?

Yeah, like, into college. It was. That was a fun thing.

Wow.

I'm apparently missing some sort of hormone that alerts me that I have to pee. And. And so I would. Now I've become a lighter sleeper, so I don't sleep through the. Through the pain of having to pee.

That's interesting. Did you also have to take up the Kegel exercises to strengthen the sphincter, so to speak?

Yeah, I've tried everything, and fortunately, it stopped. I haven't wet the bed in at least a few years.

Have you announced that before, by the way, in public? Or is this, like you're coming out on the Ben Greenfield fitness show that you're a bedwetter?

No, the first story I ever published in a national magazine.

Okay. Yeah, that's right. That's what you just said. It was actually published. Okay. Just making sure.

And then Sarah Silverman came out with a book called the Bedwetter. So I did beat her to the punch.

Okay, nice. What kind of.

Not to kick this horse to death, but, like, what kind of, like, hallucinogens or drugs did you experience that kind of force you to.

Take a turn in terms of career choices? And the reason I asked that is that for me, one of the big, big influences on my decision to go big with my business, to create more of, like, a bigger brand that I'm in the throes of doing right now, exploring what I wanted to do in terms of the mark I wanted to make in the world while on psilocybin. And so that was one thing that made a huge difference for me was psilocybin. But for you, what was it?

Lsd. A strong dose that really kind of brought my insecurities to the forefront. Things I didn't really know I was insecure about. For instance, I stumbled upon a rave in Boston, and I was wearing, like, you know, khakis and a white button down. And, you know, I didn't know I was gonna end up.

What do you mean you stumbled upon it?

So I was with a couple friends. We were just wandering around Boston, and one of them knew about a late night after party at this place called the Loft. And I Ended up showing up and clearly the only person dressed like a preppy at this event. And I'm hoping, hoping everyone thinks that, like, I'm in a Halloween costume or something because I, you know, I'm glowing in the black light with a white button down and like loafers on and everyone else looks like raver kids.

And so I think, like, that kind of sent me off spinning where I, you know, I wondered, I started questioning why I'm wearing these clothes. And I wore them because my mom would buy them for me and she wanted me to be a preppy. And God bless her, like, I have a wonderful mom and we're very, very close. But, you know, shortly thereafter, I started cutting, you know, I started sewing my own hippie clothes. I cut the inseams and put in fake fur. And so, you know, I think it's these drugs, like, really made me question who I was growing up, you know, what, why I was making decisions. And it was very liberating.

Were you like. I'm not really familiar with how recent, like the micro dosing LSD craze has been in terms of its materialization, but were you microdosing or was this like big doses, like triple doses of lsd?

Yeah, yeah, these were heavy, like face melting, sky falling doses. And that's, you know, I would be very hesitant to do anything like that these days. Partly because I'm a dad and partly because I feel like I've. There are some sleeping dogs. I don't want to wake up. But, you know, I feel like I've been there and I'm not opposed to, you know, exploring other drugs, but, you know, it's not for me right now.

Yeah. Have you tried microdosing with lsd?

I haven't, but I'm aware of the trend.

Yeah. Yeah. Very small doses of it seem to work as a little bit of a neutral. Same with psilocybin. Has kind of like a neurogenesis, neuroplasticity promoting effect in terms of actually, ironically enough, improving brain health. So rather than killing brain cells, you can actually use it for better memory formation and all sorts of really interesting things. So that's interesting. So that's what kind of like drove you into filmmaking from wanting to be President of the United States, was essentially LS raves and then eventually beginning to produce music videos.

Yeah, that's pretty accurate.

Okay, so where did obstacle course racing come in?

You know, like, I have a few heroes in literature, like AJ Jacobs is one of them. And, and I like the confessional guinea pig type Wait, A.J.

Jacobs. He's the guy who is he? The guy who. He's like a guinea pig or like a. I know he's a journalist and a writer, but he, like, does weird things to himself. Like, he lived like he was.

Living biblically. He's the guy who did, like, the year of living biblically, Right. Where he. Where he followed every rule in the Bible, like, throwing tiny stones at adulterers and not shaving his beard. And I don't know what all else he did, but it's kind of a. I haven't read the book, but I've heard him talk about it. He's pretty hilarious.

He's very, very funny.

He even did this one essay for Esquire in which do I really Love My Wife? And he would look at images of Angelina Jolie while his head was hooked up to a brain imaging scanner and then pictures of his wife to compare how he reacted, what his response was to seeing Angelina Jolie versus his wife.

What happened?

He loves his wife, apparently, more than Angelina Jolie. Yeah. I don't know the specifics of it, but I do remember the conclusion was, he loves his wife.

Oh, that's admirable.

And then Drop Dead Healthy was another book in which he tried a bunch of the different health fads. He also had a book called Mr. Know It all about reading the encyclopedia from A to Z. So I kind of. I've always enjoyed that kind of stunt journalism. And to me, obstacle racing. When I first saw a Tough Mudder video, it scared the bejesus out of me. And I instantly thought, like, I need to do that. I thought it'd make for a funny story, like a humor essay. And I also thought I could get a pretty cool profile pick out of the deal. So it was, you know, a little hit of that ego hit that I was looking for, and then also, you know, some source material.

So that was a Tough Mudder. The first obstacle course race that you did was a Tough Mud.

Yep.

Okay, gotcha. And were you just, like, bit by the bug after that, or what happened?

Well, the experience itself was. Was tremendous and overwhelming, and I really. It was like nothing I'd ever done before. And I. Being able to face fears and conquer them was tremendously gratifying. But also, right around the time that I did that first Tough Mudder, I uncovered a scandal surrounding the origins of Tough Mudder and a bitter legal battle between a race company in the UK Called Tough Guy and Tough Mudder. And the Cliff Notes of this, you could read it. It was a Cover story for Outside magazine. But in short, Will Dean from Tough Mudder, he was studying at Harvard Business School and he, Will Dean is the.

Guy who owns Tough Mudder.

Yeah, he approached this Mr. Mouse guy who, the creator of tough guy, this 80 year old wild man who is kind of the godfather of this industry. He approached him when he was at Harvard and suggested that he would help bring Tough Guy to the USA and expand it globally. And that didn't happen for reasons you can read.

And so I spent many months reporting this story and this intense fight between these two companies. And during that time, it took about a year for that to hit newsstands. In that time I did more obstacle races. I fell in love with the community and really kind of found this. As a writer, you're always looking for your beat, your niche or where you could stake your claim. And for me, no one was writing about or, you know, telling these stories in the way that I wanted to tell them. And there are so many great stories within it. You know, you have people like Hunter McIntyre and Amelia Boone and you have characters like Mr. Mouse or Joe Disena from Spartan Race. And, you know, it's just a kind of a gold mine as a storyteller. And so, you know, I just got stuck in the mud just by being fascinated by it all and also really enjoying the experiences.

Okay, so when did you decide to make this movie?

I think like after. After the story came out in Outside magazine, it got a bunch of attention worldwide.

And this was the story where you talked about how the folks who made Tough Mudder, this guy Will Dean that you just talked about, they basically kind of stole the idea from this crazy old dude in the uk.

Correct.

Okay.

That's what that story is about. And then 60 Minutes they hired me as a consultant for a 60 Minute Sports segment. And for that I went over to England and that's where I met Mr. Mouse for the first time. And when I was over there, I ran the 2013 tough guy. 60 Minutes was filming it.

And Mr. Mouse is the crazy old guy who runs this Tough Guy over in the uk.

Yeah, he's the kind of guy you would expect Daniel Day Lewis to play in a movie. He's just so eccentric and odd and fascinating and a man who is way, way ahead of his time. And so I thought he'd make a great profile or a book or a biography. So once I went over there with 60, I kind of fell in love with this man and the idea of writing a book about him. And then I kind of you know, I didn't think. I thought this sport lends itself so well to visuals, and I decided I'd make a movie. Plus, I thought it would be a little more accessible. A documentary versus a book I thought more people would appreciate. So at that point, I had a couple of early investors, like friends who loved that outside story, who gave me enough seed money to get this thing going.

So when you went over there to the UK to interview this dude, did you actually do his. His big gritty race over there, this Tough Guy race?

Oh, yeah. And it was. It was brutal. It was every bit as brutal as build.

That. That was after you'd already done the Tough Mudder, right?

Yes.

Okay, so tell me how this race goes, this Tough Guy, because I've never done it, but I've heard it's just incredibly brutal. And like some of the images that you showed in the movie of people just. Just hypothermic. Not afterwards, during the race. Just like people blue in the face, teeth chattering. I mean, it looks incredibly masochistic. Can you go into why it's such a hard race?

It's the cold. The main obstacle there is the freezing cold temperatures, and Mr. Mouse will get you wet early and get you wet often. So whereas Tough Mudder has like a. They have an obstacle called Arctic Enema and it's a dumpster filled with ice. Ice water. Tough Guy has, you know, like you're submerging yourself underwater multiple times and you're in water for like about a 50 yard stretch on this one obstacle called Underwater Tunnels. So you're just, as you're waiting towards the part where you have to submerge your head, your core body temperature is just getting knocked down, and then you gotta dunk your head three or four times. And after that, I mean, it's just like you get an instant ice cream headache. And after that you're just leveled. Like, there's no running right afterwards. I just like pause for like two minutes and just squeeze my head and so, like that race, that first race, it was so cold that the day before, you know, the course was covered in snow and I was standing on a sheet of ice and that, you know, on a pond that we would be wading through the next day. It was just, you know, it's frigid. It was like a tundra.

And are there obstacles in it, like, similar to what you'd have in like a spartan race or Tough Mudder where you're like doing monkey bars and stuff like that too?

Yeah, the Tough Mudder is Tough Mudder. Essentially, all of their obstacles, at least, you know, several years ago, they've innovated, made some new ones that are just truly originally theirs. But all of their obstacles back in at the early at the start were directly inspired from Tough Guy. The difference is that Tough Guy is. Has been around for 30 years now, and so the obstacles are permanent and they're just massive. They're like four stories tall and they feel old. You know, not like 25 or 30 years old. Like, the whole experience feels like William Wallace is going to charge out of the tree line. It's like. It's really something else.

Can anybody go over and do this race this Tough Guy?

They can. Well, supposedly this is the last year, so if you hurry.

Wait, when is it?

It's Sunday the 29th. And allegedly this is the final Tough guy.

Wait, Sunday, January 29th?

Yep.

Oh, so it's coming up super soon, Is it tough guy.co.uk is that the website for it?

It is.

Okay, cool. I'll put a link in the show notes, by the way, for those of you listening in. Okay, so what happened when you did the Tough Guy? Did you get hypothermic or did it, like, completely destroy you or it destroyed me.

The difference is when you cross the finish line of a Tough Mudder, you feel joyful. I mean, there's this relief, and you feel amazing. There's this camaraderie. You're drinking the beer at the finish line of tough Guy. Like, I don't want a beer. Like, I don't. I want to. You know, I literally was wondering if I needed to go to the hospital. I was so cold. I needed help taking my shoes off. I needed help taking my clothes off. And I didn't warm up for, you know, at least 90 minutes. And 60 of those minutes, I was in a warm bathtub, and I was still chattering. It was. It was brutal. I didn't know that you could be that cold.

I think I've been that cold. I think during the world's toughest mudder, I got that cold. Because you don't wear a wetsuit during the Tough Guy.

Right? You don't know.

Okay, during the toughest mudder, you could wear a wetsuit, but I had, like, my tiny, little, thin, like, one and a half millimeter triathlon wetsuit. And out there in the desert where it gets close to 30 degrees at night, and you're what they're the year I did, there were like six different water immersion type of obstacles or swims throughout the night. And by 2am I couldn't, like, I couldn't stop my teeth from chattering. I just couldn't stop them, you know, no matter what I did. I even wandered into the medical tent and stood in front of their heater, and, like, I. My whole body was. Was bluish purple. And I. Eventually, what I wound up doing was basically booging over to my little, little tent because it was just like this tent city where you can. You can pitch your tent and you can have, like, your recovery area. And I convinced my wife to let me strip off my wetsuit and climb naked into the sleeping bag with her for about an hour while I just shivered, trying to get the energy back up to go back out in the course. But I could barely even move my body. I was shivering so hard. I can't imagine doing something like that without wearing a wetsuit.

Yeah. The only blessing is it's a lot shorter than a Tough world sweater.

How long is it?

It's 8, 10 miles. You never really know. And, you know, for. For, like, someone like James Appleton, who. Who has won this event, he's featured in the film. You know, it might take him an hour and a half. Hour 20 for me. Closer to, you know, 240. And. Yeah, you're out there. That's a long time to be out there. You know, your feet, you're in and out of water so often. There's this one obstacle. It's just trenches. And your ankle, you know, my ankles, like, literally, from the ankle down, it felt just solid blocks of ice. And, you know, where you're just, like. You feel like you're running on peg legs.

Yeah. Wow.

So it's uncomfortable. I'm going back, and this will be my fifth straight year doing it, and I'm looking forward to it, but I'm also not.

Okay, let's turn to the topic at hand, this movie, because this is kind of a perfect segue, man. A lot of people are paying to do this. A lot of people are paying to go over and do the Tough Guy. A ton of people, including me and a lot of my friends are also paying to suffer through ice and fire and electricity and barbed wire and mud and all these different races. So I know that you interviewed a lot of people in the movie to talk about why it is that folks are actually going out and doing things like this. So, I mean, you just brought up one guy, A.J. jacobs, and he's in the movie, right?

Yep, he is.

Okay, so when you interviewed AJ what was his take on the phenomenon? Why does he think that people are out there doing obstacle course racing?

Well, first of all, his take was absolutely hilarious. It was essentially. It's so not for me. I would rather a pleasant fest is what he says in the film. He'd rather be in a Jacuzzi that's 95 degrees.

A pleasant fest instead of a suffer fest.

Yeah. So it's not something he would do. You know, he had a lot of the people felt the same way. Like there's this, you know, a bit of a crisis of masculinity. You know, one of the things AJ would say is, you know, when the apocalypse comes and we're all fighting for sticks of asparagus, no one's going to be doing a tough mudder. So I think to him it's a product of the comfort that we, you know, these comfortable lives we live in.

But the people who did the tough mudder are going to be more equipped to win the asparagus clutching competitions.

You are proud.

Just saying. We'll be more prepared for the zombie apocalypse. So he thinks that it's because we want to get out of our comfortable offices, basically.

Yep. Yeah. And a lot of people do, or a lot of the people I spoke with feel like it's a byproduct of the luxuries and conveniences of modern life. I mean, when you think about it, we don't have very many challenges. We certainly don't have many physical challenges. And. And I'm just talking about the vast majority of us. There are obviously lots of men who have hard and women who have hard, difficult jobs who are in various services and forces or construction. But the vast majority of us push buttons and pull levers and sit in offices. And I think for a lot of people, that's not that gratifying. Completing training for an event, going through, going through the horrors of it, coming out with a finisher's medal or a headband, like that's something tangible you can put your fingers on and think, I did this. And I think modern life, when you're just sending emails to people, it's ultimately very unfulfilling.

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of Theodore Roosevelt. I don't know if you're familiar of this speech that he gave called the Strenuous Life. And he's a guy who I follow quite a bit, but he talks about how we're kind of hardwired as humans to have a life of toil and effort and labor and strife, and when that is stripped away from us. There was another website that I Follow called the Art of Manliness, in which they talk about this a little bit. When we don't have access to strenuous things in our lives, one of the things that tends to go way up is the use of things like illegal and prescription drugs and suicides and global depression. And a lot of these things that essentially will would melt away if people just had access to be able to tap into harder things in life. And I mean, that's a huge thing that you see in obstacle course racing is a lot of people will get out of alcoholism or get out of drug use or abuse. And I know this may sound ironic after us having just talked about microdosing with psilocybin and lsd, but we're talking about more serious problems than that on a much larger scale. But in many cases, if people don't have a way to engage in feats of physical strength and toughness, they wind up getting almost like this boredom phenomenon that drives them into things like substance abuse.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are just countless stories within the community. I mean, and even like Hunter McIntyre who is featured in the film, and I know you, you know him well, and he is definitely, I would say, maybe the world's best obstacle racer. But before that he was a, you know, the world's best party boy. And, you know, he found a way to channel his, you know, his energy from drugs and alcohol towards, towards the mud. And he's been dominating and crushing at life ever since.

Oh yeah, he's told that story before. He and I have a podcast together called the Obstacle Dominator and he's told that story before about like how his parents sent him off to the backwoods. I think it was like Wyoming or something like that to like be a logger just, just to get him out of, of like drugs and trouble. And then he, I think he eventually like became a male model, but then it was like Spartan. That kind of turned him from, from a frat style life of partying and into living relatively clean and getting super fit. So, yeah, he's a perfect example. But, but back to A.J. jacobs and his philosophy about this just being something that makes us, that gives us the ability to be able to escape our lives of comfort and tap into living dirty. Did he or have you come across any science behind this in terms of some kind of evolutionary mechanism that drives us to want to get out and do this? Or is this all just societal and demographic observation based?

I think anecdotal for the most part. I mean, I'm sure that they're well, you know, like, there are, I'm sure there are a wealth of studies as far as, like your brain. When you're actively engaged in difficult tasks, your brain would be, you know, it releases a bunch of endorphins and dopamine hits for like, you know, that kind of when you're overcoming obstacles, like you've been engaged in life or in the flow, as some people might say, you know, there's a lot of, I think, physiological and psychological benefits to that. But, you know, my, my film is. Wasn't like necessarily a science, you know, didn't explore the science of it as much as the psychology and sociology.

Yeah, okay. So. So AJ Jacobs thinks it's because of this whole concept behind, like, the strenuous life. Oh, we need. We need to get out. We have this deep rooted desire to somehow get out of the office and actually get our hands dirty, which is actually probably why you don't see a lot of ranchers and farmers and gardeners and stuff doing spartan races. It's always the CEOs and the folks who are living in cubicles in many cases, who do these things. Now, you interviewed other people too, like, for example, Morgan Spurlock. You're into these immersive journalism guys, these human guinea pigs, because Morgan's the guy who, he ate fast food for a long period of time. What's his movie? Super Size Me?

It was.

Yeah, so he ate a whole bunch of fast food just to see what happened to his body. And that was kind of entertaining, one of the other few documentaries I've actually seen. But what was his take on it? Why did Morgan Spurlock think that folks are doing this?

Well, the reason I approached him was he had a movie called the Greatest Movie Ever Sold, and it's about personal branding, essentially, among other things. And I feel like one of the big reasons why people are doing these things is, you know, they want to brand themselves as tougher than the person at the cubicle next to them. There's that sort of, you know, the narcissism, the profile pick, the humble brag. So, you know, a lot of people within mud, myself included, are branding ourselves as badasses. And so that's where I thought Morgan would fit into the conversation. He had other things to say as well, like, you know, he understand these things are fun. These experiences are, you know, you know, you're playing on playground essentially as an adult. So. But, you know, and also, Morgan also spoke to the fact that, you know, we. Those kinds of blue collar jobs where we're, you know, Working with our hands. Those are few and far between. So now we have to find other outlets for that.

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This, I thought was one of the most interesting takeaways from the film. This idea that as social media and selfies and profile pics on Facebook and other social media platforms has increased, so has the increase in obstacle course racing. Is it, was it he who in the movie highlighted the fact that a ton of people get driven to go out and do obstacle course races essentially to get that Facebook profile picture?

Yeah, he's one of the people who talked about it. I also had Dr. Jean Twenge, who is a psychologist who wrote Generation Me and the Narcissism Epidemic.

So she spoke to that as well. But yeah, look, Tough Guy has been around for 30 years now and it was popular for 20 something years before Tough Mudder came along, before Facebook. And so you had an event in which maybe 6,000 people did it a year to now we have millions of people doing it a year. It's because of social media. I really think that there would be a small percentage of the industry would be significantly smaller if there was no social media. If there's no way for us to brag about doing it. Because most people wouldn't go out there and suffer if they couldn't get a picture of it and at least have some sort of social proof of it.

Is kind of weird because everybody, it seems that, you know, that's an obstacle course racer, that is their Facebook profile pic or that is their, you know, their, their main Instagram profile pick or you know, most of what you see on Instagram, etc. Like it's all about getting that yet photo, getting that selfie. I remember I, I won't drop any names, but occasionally I will take a client and I will bring them through a race, right. So they can go experience it. And I remember one guy who I helped through a race. This was like the CEO of a company. And I went out and I did the Spartan race with him, and he had a whole film crew there, and they would show up at certain points during the race and he would stop on top of a wall and pose, like, do his double biceps pose, or he crossed the finish line. And then after he crossed the finish line, he walked 100 yards back and had his whole film crew film him. After he really walked most of the race, sprinting right to the finish line and crossing the finish line with his hands up in the air and at one point even bent down and like, rubbed mud on his face for one of the photos so he could have more dirt on his face for the actual profile pic. That's the type of psyche that you're referring to?

Yes, 100%. And look.

I think what's interesting, and this might be the element of the film that the obstacle race community did not respond to quite as much. Like, I've seen a lot of feedback where they're like, I didn't like the narcissism thing. Like, I don't do it for that, you know, And I don't know if they're being honest with themselves. I think for a lot of people who are obsessed with obstacle racing who do this multiple times, you know, after that initial buzz of the profile pic wears off, you know, they find other things like I have within this that keep you in it. It's not like you just keep doing it to get more and different profile pics. I think that's the entry point for a lot of people. But I think once you're in. In there and you're. You're going through these experiences, you know, you find what you're looking for, you find something else that hooks you in, whether it's that camaraderie or that, you know, the connection you feel with strangers or, you know, just that feeling of accomplishment or the feeling I'm doing something fun or, you know, something to train for. I think those. Those types of, like, there are very many very valid reasons why people do this. I just think ego and narcissism is what is what hooks or gets people to the start line in the first place.

Well, plus, once you get your profile pick, that bad boy is good to go for another 10 years. I know some people in the fitness industry who on their. Their bio pages, on their website, have, like, photos of them, you know, bodybuilding from 10 years ago to verify that at one point they were indeed fit. And so, yeah, you could have that profile pic go for a long time before it gets outdated. But when it comes to this idea of Getting hooked, I think you said. When I used to do Ironman triathlon, frankly, a big part of that was this idea of post race blues where you'd cross the finish line of an event that you'd tried so hard and trained so hard and had this entire journey to complete. And then all of a sudden the calendar is empty and you have like this empty hole in your soul that you need to fill this, this void. And so you, you stand in line to write the check right. For the next race so that you can somehow fill that void. How much of obstacle course racing do you think is that? Right? Like, like finishing and feeling as though you must get something else in the calendar right away if you're going to keep training or if you're going to stay happy or if perhaps you're not going to return to like a, a life of addiction or drinking or drugs or alcoholism or some other thing that depresses you.

Well, I think, in general, I think that speaks to the shift from, let's say, materialism to experientialism, which is another one of the forces driving this whole phenomenon. One of the people I spoke to, Michael Norton, he's a behavioral scientist at Harvard Business School. He has a book called Happy Money and in it he talks about the central power of experiences. There's the lead up to it. So you sign up for a tough mudder Spartan race two months from now and you have all this anticipation for it, you're training for it, you're getting excited for it, and then you have the actual experience and then you, you can reflect upon it for, for time afterwards, you know, and this is a lot more powerful than, let's just say, buying a TV or, or buying something material. And so I think for a lot of people, yeah, I think a lot of us are experientialists where we, we seek, especially in the social media age, we're seeking, you know, cool, fun experiences that we can, you know, brag about and also, you know, look forward to and enjoy. I mean, so I think it doesn't surprise me that you would finish an event, feel a little bit of a hole, and then get that immediate burst once you sign up and have something else in the calendar. Yeah, Personally, I need that.

Oh, me too.

What I really like about obstacle course racing is the fact it's a year round thing. You know, I could plan one of these a month for 12 months and it would keep me in check where I have to just keep in relative shape and, you know, it's something to look forward to, and it's something to, yeah, again, like I know I need to maintain a certain level of fitness if I'm going to perform and have fun and enjoy this experience. So you know, it keeps me motivated.

Oh yeah. I've talked about this before on podcasts, like my own drive to work out in many cases if I'm going to go to the gym and not like stay at home working on the computer or you know, sitting on the couch or whatever where it's that, that threat of public embarrassment and the extrinsic motivation derived from me being signed up for some event a couple of months later. And I even, I was on a Facebook page. You might be a part of this page. It's called the Obstacle Racers Worldwide. It's like a Facebook group page. And I was on there the other day just posting, hey, any races going on in February? I, I, I'm, I'm starting to, to miss getting out there and towing the starting line. Right. Because it's been a, what it's been maybe a full two months since I, I've competed and for me that's a huge amount of time for me not to be able to scratch that itch and for me not to have that drive to work out. So yeah, that's a big part of it too. So we've got this concept, Scott, of the strenuous life, right. Like humans who want to get out of their comfortable lives. And that's kind of like what AJ Jacobs highlighted in the film. And then like you mentioned Morgan Spurlock and this other guy who wrote the Generation Me book.

Book.

What was his name or her name?

Dr. Jean Twenge.

Yeah, her name. Jean Twenge. And I'll link to that book in the show notes by the way, for those of you who want to check that one out. She thinks it's because we want to scratch that narcissism itch, right. Like get a cool profile pic for our Facebook page or be able to have something to brag about on social media. And then you also, you interviewed Tim Ferriss. What was Tim Ferriss take on on the growing global phenomenon of obstacle course racing?

He had a lot of really interesting things to say. He also talked a bit about the masculinity crisis and.

We don't really have those sorts of outlets anymore to express our manliness. What did he say? He said something really funny. In a dual income household, the women in the workforce that has shifted men's identities and our place in society in a dual income household a lot of times Men feel like optional sperm donors was.

What Tim said, but I thought he'd be interesting to talk to just for a number of reasons, because getting out the four hour work week is obviously about not being attached to your computer all day long. And I think, you know, part of the drive is getting outside and being in touch with nature and the elements. I think is part of the big appeal for these events.

How dare you say that about the masculinity crisis and just give a middle finger to all the women listening in right now because there's a huge number of women in obstacle course races. So if men are doing it because there's a masculinity crisis and they don't feel as though they're to, able, able to slay the dragon or fight the lion at home, why are women doing it?

You know, I think all of us are in, in some way are doing it because modern life is a very isolating experience these days. Social media is not that social. And I think a lot of people, men and women both, there's this sort of community and you know, communal vibe that we experience out on the course that I think is really deeply, deeply appealing to people. If you were to ask a friend to help you move, you know, basically I don't ask friends to help me move anymore because, you know, I'd rather just hire someone and I know my friends don't want to help me move and I think that speaks to like just this, you know, we outsource everything and we don't really, we don't have like barn raising parties and you know, we were very disconnected as from where we were even 50 years ago. We live in much more isolated ways and, and I think these events, they really bring out the best in humanity. Like we're out there with strangers and helping people over walls and I think it really touches you on a very deep level when you have some, when you're just exhausted and you don't think you can get over a wall and you have some stranger who's expending their physical energy to help, you know, to help you over, you know, that creates this kind of forges a bond and a connection. And I think that's very much missing. I think that's one of the real powers of these, the magic of these events is, is that sort of human connection.

So yeah, it's kind of different though. Like, like in a Spartan race, a lot of times you are a lone wolf out there competing against the clock because most of the obstacles you can usually do without help in Most cases. But, like, in a tough mudder, there's stuff that, you know, I can't freaking get over. Some of those taller Mount Everest or some of those climbs that you cannot do unless someone right there during the race is helping you through it. So, yeah, there is that communal aspect. And then, of course, whether it's a Spartan or any other obstacle race, that solidarity once you cross the finish line, which, granted, you get in triathlon and 5Ks and marathons and stuff like that, but there's something about the blood and the mud and some of the more masochistic elements, like the electricity and stuff that seem to bring it to a whole new level with obstacle course racing in particular. As far as that, like, you know, that knowing nod that you give someone that you see walking through the mall with their Spartan T shirt on, you know that, hey, you've been through it too, right?

Absolutely. And back to the point about women, like in mud, you know, like all of us as well, like men and women, that the lack of accomplishment that we feel in our day jobs that a lot of us feel, you know, that's not exclusive to men or women. I think, you know, the way that our world is set up with automation and just the modern information economy, we don't really have jobs that we're building things and seeing results and feeling that sense of gratitude and competence that you feel when you achieve something great that maybe you didn't think you were able to do. So I think that's driving a lot of people in general and who doesn't want to be outside playing in the mud? I think it appeals to that child in all of us.

Oh, yeah. I mean, that, that, that's a big part of it too, right? Just that return to nature. Now you, you interviewed, you know, like I mentioned, you know, AJ Spurlock and. Or AJ Jacobs and Morgan Spurlock and Tim Ferriss and this, this professor, I keep mispronouncing her name. Is it Jane Twanger?

It's Dr. Gene Twenge, I think.

Gene. Gene Twangy. I like my French pronunciation better. It's much more Euro. Who else did you interview that you. You found to have an intriguing opinion in terms of why OCR is exploding in popularity the way that it is.

Well, I'll tell you, one of my favorite interviews was Laird Hamilton. I mean, just being in a room. I know you've spent some time with him. Being in a room with him was something I still think back on with such fond memories because it was so insane.

Yeah, he's pretty Intense.

Yeah, intense, but also just so humble and gracious, and.

The guy's vibrating on a whole different level, and it's something to strive towards. And you know what I really liked about what he had to say about fear and the importance of fear and how. How, like, you know, and, you know, we really don't have many times that we're afraid in our lives. You know, we're very lucky living in the west, where for the vast majority of us, you know, we'll go through life and never have to throw a punch, and we'll never have to, you know, go to war and so. But fear, like, brings life to the forefront, makes you really appreciate your life, your friends, your family. And that sort of, like, you know, gratitude you feel for life itself is something that I think these events can really rekindle and, you know, awaken within you.

Perhaps that's why a lot of people will do, like, a sprint, you know, like a Spartan sprint, and then they'll want to do, like, a super or a beast or a trifector, because every single thing is just a little bit more scary. Every single thing induces a little bit more fear, and then they're off doing, like, a death race or an agoji or like that tough guy that you talked about. Right. It's almost like you get on that fear bandwagon, and once something isn't scary, then you want the cold shower to be a little bit more cold and the electricity to be a little bit more intense and the barbed wire crawl to be a little bit longer.

Yeah, there you go. And then one day you're doing world's toughest mudder, like me.

So, yeah, I think that. So, you know, Laird just had a lot of great things to say, and, you know, the fact that we live in such comfort that we can control our climates and that we aren't really, you know, we live in this very safe, and the lighting is perfect, and everything is perfect in modern life, and that. That isn't natural. And I think for a lot of people, we're just tapping back into our animal nature. I know you also had Scott Carney on the podcast recently.

Oh, yeah, the author of what Doesn't Kill Us.

Yeah.

That was a great interview.

Yeah, it's a great interview, and it's a phenomenal book. But he also spent time with Laird for that as well. And I think there's something really to be said about indulging, and it's not even indulging, but our animal instincts or, you know, living, you know, in nature. A bit more and experiencing some discomfort and some pain and some suffering because, you know, homeostasis is not healthy. Just living in this, these isolated tech bubbles where everything is perfect, you know, isn't really good for our health and it's not good for our psyche.

Yeah. And it's kind of funny. Perhaps that's why my wife is not as intrigued with OCR and Spartans as I am. Right. Like she'll go out and, and do a few with me potentially for just like family solidarity. But she, unlike me, I'm right now speaking with you in my temperature controlled office with my headphones on in front of a computer with a microphone in my face. And I'll likely be here for several hours today. And really, granted I go out and I work out and stuff like that, but I might be outside for say an hour today and she's already been trudging around in the snow, feeding the goats, hauling hay, gardening, chopping wood. Like her day, simply because she doesn't have the same computer chained job as I have is spent outdoors doing things that are uncomfortable and that don't involve temperature controlled settings, etc. And so I think that to return to that concept of the farmers and the ranchers and how that's probably the suckiest demographic for someone like Spartan or tough Mudder to market towards, those folks who kind of have fear or discomfort built into their lives seem to be a little bit less enamored with obstacle course racing.

Yeah. And you know, there's a lot of white people out there, you know, and you know, that was asked this recently, you know, it's obviously predominantly white and you know, I was asked why and it's, it's, I feel like there's certain communities and cultures in which, you know, there's, there's threats of violence and there's, you know, there's life is a struggle. And I think this really appeals to people who don't really have that, you know, life is a struggle. This is a way for us to, in a safe, contained environment, like experience a little bit of taste of war, a little taste of horror.

And you know, yeah, this would be inconceivable to people like in rural India. Like one of the things I wanted to do for the doc, but I didn't get a chance to do was just go around to like, like third world countries and show them some of these videos, tell them how much it costs to do. And like, I think it's, it would, it's insane to a lot of people.

They'd think it's absolutely silly. I mean, they're like, if you look at. It's kind of interesting. There is a hunter gatherer tribe I was recently reading about. It wasn't the, wasn't the Maasai. It's one of these persistence hunter gatherer tribes. And one of the things that they'll do. When I interviewed Kevin Rose, Rose, he and I were talking about this. They'll like stop in the middle of a persistence hunt if they happen to come across a honey beehive because all of a sudden the honey is the lower hanging fruit that requires less calories to burn and makes life that much easier to be able to grab. And for them, every single decision comes down to the caloric cost. Right? Like they'd never just go walk into a CrossFit box to work out because you're burning precious calories that you might need for survival. And now when we can pull into McDonald's and grab a 2,000 calorie meal for a little over five bucks, all of a sudden going out and doing these things that seem to fly in the face of our evolutionary mechanisms to simply survive becomes an easy decision. Whereas people who are still struggling to live, it's like, it's a horrible, horrible waste of calories and efficiency and the potential for death and discomfort. It's kind of weird how now we're in a completely opposite position where we're striving to get out of comfort and experience discomfort. And many folks around the world are struggling to get out of discomfort and experience comfort. And for them, obstacle course racing would just be a complete waste of time and flying in the face of their evolutionary built in ancestral mechanisms.

Right. And also this reminds me when you're talking about these different tribes and these, all of these various little communities and tribes in the Amazon or wherever, they have rights of specific rites of passage where boys can become men, women or girls can become women. And that's something that's very much lacking in today's. In a society in which, you know, we don't have to go to war, we have the draft, there's no expectation that we will ever go to battle. And so the, you know, the military has always been the main ritual and rite of passage for, for us. And without that, when are we adults? And I think that's a question that a lot of people, millennials especially, are asking themselves.

Yeah, interesting. So you produced this movie and while producing it, I know that you did more than the tough guy. I mean, you travel all over the place digging into all these other crazy Adventures and masochistic events. What were some of the other crazier things that you encountered while getting an insider glimpse of the obstacle course racing community or this concept of adventure racing and obstacle course racing in general?

Well, I would say World's Toughest Mudder was the most extreme event that I participated in. It's the epilogue of the film was my experience at the 2015 World's Toughest Mudder. I went back this past year to do it again. And to be honest, I can't wait to till the 2017 World's Toughest Mudder comes around. And I think, like, that was for me, that event sort of says it all in the sense that afterwards, after the first one, I was bawling and crying and I thought I. And I thought there'd be no way in hell I'd do this thing again. And then a couple days later I was like, yeah, maybe I'd give it another crack. And then instantly after I finished this year, you know, I just wanted to get back to that. You know, obviously I'm addicted to this sport in a lot of ways and, you know, I need to know that I'm going to be doing this again next year and that maybe I'll go for 75 miles this year and, you know, maybe that will inform some of the decisions I make between now and then in terms of, you know, diet and health and fitness. And so I think, you know, for me, that's like the ultimate event.

Hunter McIntyre, who we've mentioned a couple times, is one of the world's top obstacle course racers. He and I have talked about this, and he also thinks that this event, the World's Toughest Mudder, is like the world's best obstacle course racing event. If you wanted to really experience everything that there was to experience in obstacle course racing. This is kind of like the bee's knees in terms of the ultimate event. Do you think that's the case?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I am also very, very partial to Tough Guy because it's just so different than what you've experienced here in the States where you have, you know, obstacles that are just built up in two weeks and then taken down and moved to the next city or town. You know, the permanence of that, of that course and that experience are, you know, unlike anything I've seen. World's Toughest Mudder is a bit more immersive because you're there for 24 hours. You're in, you have that tent city and, and the bonds and connections you can form with people are, I think, a little bit more lasting and more permanent because of just the proximity you have with people in tents around you, and you might spend multiple laps, multiple hours with someone on the course. So I think those two are the premier events for me.

The two premier events would be Toughest Mudder and which one?

And Tough Guy.

Okay, gotcha. Now, in terms of obstacle course races that you see coming down the pipeline, are there, like, trends? Do you think that there are places this industry is going that you have a unique knowledge about or that you suspect is going to happen in the world of ocr?

I mean, I could see more ninja obstacle courses. I know Casey Catanzaro and Brent Stephenson have an event called Alpha Warrior. You know, I could see. I could see that being a trend that picks up, you know, just like short courses that are, you know, quick little races with American Ninja Warrior style obstacles. Because it's replicable in multiple cities, you could. I could see a league starting there and having championship series and things like that.

So I think that would be. And then I think the, you know, the short course, I think at some point Spartan will have a short course championship series and, you know, stuff that would lend itself towards television.

Yeah. Or the Olympics. Right. I did their. Their test course down in Dallas, Texas, when I raced the Spartan Stadium race down there, where we were all running on an indoor track. I think the course was like, you know, 1600 meters and took like, four to five minutes to complete, but it was just wham, bam, thank you, man. Ma'. Am. A whole bunch of obstacles all in a row that was extremely conducive to television and a standardized course. And this idea that this could potentially be a spectator event that is easily replicable in terms of times and the course and even the potential for something like the Olympics.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think Tough Mudder and Spartan Race have both done a very, very good job at creating good television content, specifically the NBC Sports series for Spartan Race and then more recently, CBS Sports and their World's Toughest Mudder coverage. Yeah, those tend to be. I've, like, found those very compelling between the race elements, and then also the. The lifestyle backstory, you know, looks, glimpses into participant lives, and then, you know, obviously that's not the live action, you know, sort of footage that you or programming that you'd want to develop this into a spectator sport. But I find those to be really, really riveting pieces of film.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I, you know, I have obviously, for the past, I guess, two to three years, been kind of heavily involved in the sport. I find it intriguing still, even after seeing your movie, that people go out and voluntarily include people, including myself, go out and voluntarily subject themselves to these type of things. But the movie's a really interesting glimpse into because I think for me it's a mix of everything, right? It's wanting to get out and experience discomfort. It's the masculinity crisis. It's wanting that cool profile pic that I can put up on social media because of my built in narcissism and me being a part of of Generation Me. It's wanting to have something that sparks fear and discomfort in the biochemical reaction that occurs in response to something like that. I think it's a little bit of everything. I think that might be for a lot of folks, but ultimately if you're listening in and you're even remotely interested in why you'd go out and do something hard like this, and that could even include why you'd step into a CrossFit box or sign up for a triathlon, not necessarily an obstacle race per se. This is a cool film to see. So it's called Rise of the Sufferfest. I'm put a trailer in the show notes over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com SufferfestMovie and I'll also link to some of the other things that Scott and I talked about like this toughguy co.uk if you want to get in on that and some of AJ Jacobs books on Amazon. More about Scott my previous podcast with Scott Carney about the book what Doesn't Kill Us and plenty more. So Scott, thanks for coming on the show and sharing this stuff with us, man.

I appreciate the opportunity.

Ben yeah. And folks, if you're listening in, until next time, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Scott Connealy signing out from BenGreenfieldFitness.com have a healthy week.

You've been listening to the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.

Go to BenGreenfieldFitness.com for even more cutting edge fitness and performance advice.

Sam.