Why The Top Biohackers Quit Taking Supplements

People have as much plastic in their brain as 2 or 3 credit cards in terms of the amount of plastic. When there's that level of exposure or in your body, it's probably best to get something done.

Like, in today's podcast, I'm interviewing the founder and CEO of one of the world's largest health optimization and longevity summits in London, the Health Optimization Summit. My guest is Tim Gray. Also known as Tim Biohacker. The summit is incredible, but Tim always has, you know, new toys, new gadgets, new technologies, new approaches, and a really great view on the health world in general.

My heart rate variability is always better whenever I use the— because I'm breathing better, meaning that I'm more rested, more vasodilation, and then sleep better as well as a result.

We have this annual catch-up where we also release a big old discount code to get you into the summit. So if you want to come Party, Hang, Hack, and Beyond. Check out the show notes at bengreenfieldlife.com/tim2026. And, let's go talk with Tim. Hello everybody. This is the annual meetup between Tim Gray and I. Do you still call yourself like UK's leading biohacker or are you doing the healthy community guy now or what's your title?

You had to go there, didn't you?

Thanks, mate.

Yeah. I would say I'm not even a biohacker these days, but unfortunately, the biohacker branding remains.

Yeah.

I would say most of us, we're getting back around to nature as much as possible but using tech in the meantime.

Yeah. Actually, talk to me about that because you're in Tuscany, you're obviously doing the natural living hippie-dippy thing there. You've still got, of course, the conference in September, the Health Optimization Summit, where it's just gadget central, like the Consumer Electronics Show of biohacking. So, where do you fall on the spectrum of, I guess, the fundamentals versus the gadgets right now?

To be honest, the funny thing is it's quite a big reflection moment for me being in Italy last week because Yeah, I realized how little biohacking I actually did. It was ridiculous. Like, as I said before we started recording, I was like sitting on the beach having, you know, Mediterranean food, walking, grounding, and I realized how much tech I relied on. So I kind of, I would say when I'm in the city, I rely on so many biohacks and so much tech and so many supplements. But when I'm actually in nature, I hardly need anything. And I think that's just the typical balance of juggling life of using technology to reverse the damage of technology.

Yeah.

Well, I was hoping you would go there. It's like when you're living in that post-industrial electrical soup with air pollution and light pollution and water pollution and electrical pollution, you almost need to kind of pull out the big guns, comma, when you're in that environment, it's just harder to get out in pristine clean nature anyways.

Yeah, for sure. But the thing is, is that I do really appreciate all of the devices that I use when I'm in London, and I can't imagine how I'd actually be able to operate at this level without them. But at the same time, you know, I can't imagine sitting on the beach with a red light device.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just drag this out here and set this little red light square in my lap while the big sun shines overhead. So, when it comes to this idea of optimization, do you think it's equally important to remove barriers like microplastics or mold or heavy metals or even just environmental stressors versus, I guess, the additives, supplements, whatever, stem cells, peptides, red light, PMF, hyperbaric? I mean, how much do you focus on one versus the other?

Well, that's a really good point. I mean, one, we don't need one without the other, particularly. I mean, if you think back again, we're going back evolutionary. We wouldn't need to remove anything because we wouldn't have any of the pollutants or any of the toxicities. And nowadays, having to remove stuff is so important. I mean, if we think about— I'm going to quote Gary Brecker here, but if we look at what's in the cell that shouldn't be and what isn't— like, basically what's in the cell that shouldn't be and what isn't in the cell that should be. I mean, the cell operates correctly, right? And then it's like you can we can keep on adding on hyperbaric oxygen therapy, but in the first place, why would we need that? And I think adding nature, or should I say fresh air in the forest and breathwork, that's what you would add there. Whereas in the city, you're just adding something different. So, it's selective depending on where I am or my zip code at the time as to what approach I have. And I would imagine you probably do the same, right? I mean, If you weren't recording a podcast, you'd probably be on a call on your phone walking out in the woods or something or other. But when you're recording a podcast and you're stuck, you're getting your steps in and in the office like you are right now. So, I think it's just very, very contextual. And I add whatever I need whenever I need it. And it sounds like everything and nothing of what I just said there, very high level. But really, for instance, the person that goes in the gym 7 days a week, why is he doing that? Is that actually helping him move forward? Or is the person on the beach actually needing a grounding bed sheet? So, I'd say I move around the planet so much, 6 to 8 months of the year that my routine is adaptive depending on where I am at that moment in time.

So, you don't paint yourself into the corner of doing the same thing day in, day out. You'll look at your environment, look at where you're at in the world, and then make a call on the fly. About what your body needs, what you need to add, what you need to subtract.

Exactly. And I think there's so many people that just, like for instance, I said to someone a few weeks ago, I was like, oh, why do you take this supplement? And they're like, I can't remember. I started taking it like 3 or 4 years ago and I just take it every day. I'm like, yeah, but surely that's kind of missing the point. It's when a habit becomes a habit and you don't even question why you do it.

Or as we say, cuz spelled C-U-Z, just cuz.

And I think that's a thing that biohackers like you and I that have been around the block a bit these days kind of were more, more, more, more, more, more, more stick, you know, how many supplements in your mouth or how many IVs a week or whatever. But it's kind of like, well, actually, you figure out where things land and then do what you need. And yeah, I think a lot of people that are getting into this space because it's growing very quickly, the health has become fashionable lately, very fashionable. And I think people are just, I want this supplement, I want this supplement, I want this technology, this technology. And they're in the playground that we've been in for 10+ years now. So yeah, I think if I were to summarize everything that we've just been saying, I would say really look at what you need and question everything every day. And in fact, our mutual friend, Dr. Dom Nischwitz, the biological dentist, Every single day with every single supplement, he does muscle testing, kinesiology with his wife or his kids and say, "Do I need this supplement or do I want this food?" And see how his body responds to it in that moment. And he probably takes 2 or 3 supplements and I probably take 5 or 6 these days, whereas rewind 7, 8 years ago, I was taking 40, 50, 60 a day.

Yeah, I think the way I think about that is like, yeah, if you open up my pantry, there is a wall and it probably has 50 different bottles of random supplements in it. And, I think that people should have a goal to gain enough wisdom and understanding in the industry to know when to use what. If you go to the immune section of the pantry, there's AHCC and beta-glucan and like a Whole Foods vitamin C and oil of oregano. And, I would choose the bigger guns of those if I were traveling or if someone in the house were sick. I'd take beta glucan or if I've been swimming in a fresh body of water that I know is somewhat polluted or has a parasitic load, I might take oil of oregano that day. And, if I really want the big guns and I'm going to be hefty travel day, off to a conference, sleeping 6 hours a night around a ton of people, doing a book signing, shaking 100 hands, I might inject thymosin alpha-1 as a peptide. Or, another example might be methylene blue is certainly there on the shelf. If I know I'm going to have a day in the sunshine, a nice hike in the woods, exposure to a great deal of full light spectrum, I would take methylene blue because I know it could assist with ATP production. Or, if I know it's a sauna day, like a heavy sauna day, 2 days a week I have a pretty heavy sauna day, I'll add minerals to my morning glass of water. Other mornings, I would use less. So, I think it's an understanding of we don't use everything every day in the same way you wouldn't eat every single food group in your refrigerator every day.

Agreed. I think the problem is though that so many new people are coming into the space or learning learning that, you know, supplementing and eating clean is good for you because it's very, very popular right now. They don't necessarily have that awareness yet and they're just doing more and more and more and adding in and then taking 30, 40, 50 supplements a day and stressing their liver and then ruining their digestion and actually, you know, doing— it's counterproductive. So I'll tell you one thing that was absolutely hilarious yesterday. I went into Whole Foods And you know how Whole Foods sets out all the fruits and everything, beautiful oranges with the green stalks coming off of it and then on top of it, vitamin C liposomal sachets. So, it's like, I can just imagine people going, "Oh, I'm going to have the orange. Actually, no, I just have the product instead." And I was just like, this is bonkers. I mean, it's an ingenious cross-sell and how to take someone from having a $1 orange to a $6 sachet.

Yeah. And frankly, the sad truth is most people will take the shiny crinkly packaging with the claims on it because the orange doesn't have a label per se. Obviously, a lot of this is pretty esoteric big picture, but getting down to brass tacks, we double-click on a few of these things that have come up like microplastics, for example. Obviously, maybe that's the second most searched term in the entire health industry besides peptides. Because I know you've done blood filtration, you've done forms of plasmapheresis, ozone, et cetera. Have you kind of come across anything that seems reasonable when it comes to reducing microplastic load in the body or something that actually seems to work?

Yeah. I mean, since that documentary came out on Netflix, it's gone wild with microplastics. Lululemon and Nike and all these brands are being called out now for having pretty much 100% plastic clothing. And I've actually done some content around this over the last couple of weeks. I mean, I think the— I heard yesterday that kimchi specifically is really good at binding microplastics in the gut. I haven't looked into the mechanism.

Kimchi, like the spicy fermented cabbage?

Yeah, exactly. Stuff. Yeah, yeah. I haven't looked into the mechanisms yet because I saved it, put a pin in it to read. But it's interesting that everyone's kind of like now looking at the microplastic angle. I mean, the traditional things such as sauna, obviously exercise, sweating, obviously. But I think it really depends on your level because when you look at the amount of plastics, I think they said that people have as much plastic in their brain these days because of all the microplastics as 2 or 3 credit cards in terms of the amount of plastic, which is nuts when you think about it. So I think when there's that level of exposure or in your body, it's probably best to get something done like emphaeresis or the blood filtering, EBO, EBO2 or something like that. And actually I'm flying to Zurich, Switzerland on Friday to a brand new clinic opening up that does emphaeresis and stem cell emphaeresis and hypothermia treatments and things like this to help deal with all your toxicities from viral all the way through to microplastic. So, it's going to be a really interesting whole week of it.

Yeah, a lot of people are familiar with the term plasmapheresis, almost like a dialysis machine where you have your blood pulled out and plasma filtered and back into the body. You just use the term Enpheresis, is that what you're saying?

Enpheresis, yes, one of the brands. It's one of the brands that does plasmapheresis, yeah. Okay.

So, it's just a brand that does plasmapheresis.

Yeah. Okay, got it. Really, really good clinic that you basically go in and have it 3 to 5 times in 1 week with maybe, as I say, hypothermia treatment or various other things and then finishing it up at the end of the week with stem cells, full-body stem cells made from your own stem cells, that is.

Okay, got you. So basically, you're combining hyperthermia and filtration. I'm assuming hyperthermia would speed up the amount of of blood that would flow in and out of the body. And then, once you've pulled a lot of the stuff out, you're replenishing with stem cells.

Exactly, exactly.

Interesting.

Obviously, while remineralizing because you're filtering a lot of blood through that week. And apparently, you have to have an awful lot of downtime. So, it's going to be interesting filming this all next week.

I've seen a lot of these companies that are focusing on reducing microplastic load using some kind of a binder. Strategy in the gut, which obviously could reduce some of what you're exposed to orally. And then yesterday, I was speaking with someone in the sulforaphane research industry, and they were basically alluding to a study that they have going on right now that indicates that the upregulation of the, the Nrf2 pathway by sulforaphane, like Broccoli sprout extract or concentrated broccoli seed or broccoli sprout extract was mobilizing plastics out of cells, not just in the gut, and then allowing for them to pass out via the feces, which is super interesting. I mean, that's great news for a lot of people who might not be able to afford a plasmapheresis.

Yeah, it's funny, I haven't heard the term Nrf2 for a while. There was a while where there's an MLM going around saying, "Have you heard of Nrf2 pathway?" And, do you know how to upregulate it? I mean, the broccoli sprout juice was a big thing here 5 or 6 years ago. I don't know if you still hear.

Yeah, I think the issue with it was stability. And now, there's companies like— there's one out of France, there's one in the U.S. called Broccolite, and they've kind of figured out how to stabilize sulforaphane to allow for better upregulation of that so-called master antioxidant pathway or the Nrf2 pathway. So, it's interesting. That's one to keep an eye on. And then, when it comes to just the world of detoxification in general, specifically related to the Health Optimisation Summit, are there any vendors there or anything new there in that category?

Oh, there's so many new people. I mean, to be honest, the space has exploded in the last year and we've got so many new brands that I've been vetting throughout the whole year. There's probably 4 or 5 different companies that support detoxification, whether it's from new NAD treatments with the pen through to Swedish digestive bitters and various other things as well. So there's a lot of good stuff on the floor this year around detoxification specifically. I can't pinpoint one that I can come to mind right now.

What's the NAD thing with the pen?

So, I mean, obviously, peptides these days you can get with the vial which you have to put your own—

you have to make sterile water reconstitution solution.

Now, because it's becoming so consumer-friendly or needs to be more consumer-friendly, people are developing pens that you dial them up like the typical Pfizer growth hormones where you dial up the dose and then you use it with a fresh pen every day. There's an NAD brand. The name will come to me in a minute, that, that now you just use it, a pen that you can carry around with you in an ice pack and use it every day instead of having to draw up and, and do it.

So you mean like a preloaded, like subcutaneous NAD injection strategy?

Exactly.

Yeah. Interesting.

Okay. Yeah. So that's, that's looking really nice. And I think this is one of the big problems with, like, for instance, when we're used to either injecting ourselves or having needles put in us and having all sorts of crazy treatments and things. But I think the general consumer that are now becoming more health conscious aren't quite such a fan of having needles in them. So everyone's thinking of all these fancy ways to draw blood or get these compounds into you. For instance, I was at, I think it was A4M in December last year, and they had a new device that kind of sticks to your arm like that. Goes in, does the pin, draws the blood out into a little bottle, and they take it off and it's absolutely—

Yeah, the Tasso. A lot of at-home blood testing companies are doing that now. Usually, they come with a little heater pack like you'd use if you're skiing and it goes on, for example, the shoulder, heats the skin, you slap the patch on there that has a tube insert for the blood, that draws the blood, you ship that off. The amount of variables you can measure with an at-home test like that is always going to be more limited than at this point driving to a Quest or LabCorp and giving 15, 18, 20 vials of blood, but you can actually get a decent amount of information. And, it's for a lot of people way more comfortable than just the finger prick. Yeah.

And then, they're everywhere now, I think. I mean, the fingerprint, I always question the finger prick method because it's like people are literally milking the finger and I'm like, what does that cause inflammation-wise? And does that skew the blood results where I think that's interesting? Yeah, there's a brand called GlycanAge that do the, the age testing based on your glycans and some of the results seem to be very sometimes very high and very low. And one thing I've noticed is if I think if people are dehydrated, they're milking the finger, they're squeezing the blood out, they're getting onto the thing and it gives them a maybe a skewed age range because the inflammation markers are slightly higher. Whereas when you're fully hydrated and the blood comes out much easier on your finger, then— so I think some of these devices that are coming out now that you've just described are significantly better for giving good results, but still not the same, obviously, as a blood draw in a proper clinic. But then, you know, how is it handled? How is it stored? Is it cold? Does it need to be centrifuged and things like that before it's shipped? Whereas at home it is significantly more limited. But the thing is, is, you know, every— pretty much every week now I'm hearing of a new company that's bringing out some new technology or solution to this, and it is growing quite quickly. And also with scale comes more resource, and, you know, at-home blood draws are so much cheaper now because there's so many more— so much more call for it, especially in— I mean, here in London. I guess it's like that in the States already.

Yeah, you brought up A4M, you know, it seemed like every third vendor there was some kind of a peptide vendor. That's something I already mentioned is probably one of the most Googled terms in the health industry, if not the world as a whole. What's the peptide scene like in the UK right now? And, are peptides going to be featured in any way at the Health Optimisation Summit this year?

Yeah, we do. We have one brand of peptide company at the show. It's a very interesting space right now, the whole peptide space because of GLP-1s and all the all the noise around those and how mainstream they've gone. And everyone seems to know 5 people on Ozempic or equivalent. And then of course, that's then given a rise to other peptides, the, you know, the more natural body response ones that are more mainstream for us, like, you know, copper peptides or BPC-157, TB500, etc. The thing is, is because it's, it's kind of like early day crypto, it's a free-for-all. Everyone's running to grab the brand, the manufacturing process isn't necessarily as trustworthy as it should be. There's a lot of it coming out of China. A lot of stuff that was tested didn't even have any of the peptide that it claimed to have in it. So it's really— it's a very difficult ground to navigate right now. We— I think pretty much 3 times a week at the moment I'm being asked to be an advisor or invest in or be part of some peptide companies. I'm sure you are as well. As time goes on, it was going to filter out the rubbish and we're going to be left with much better stuff. So I think it's good. However, there's so much money being made by the pharmaceutical industry on, you know, things like Ozempic that I don't think it's going to be long before they start saying, well, actually, we're going to start bringing out some of these other compounds ourselves and doing it properly, which then, you know, you have the Pfizer, the Pfizer assurance of the quality compared to some Chinese lab that doesn't have anything in it. So it's definitely is definitely going mainstream right now. And, I think I see 5 to 10 influencers a day talking about peptides and having their accounts taken down on Instagram because compliance is so early.

Yeah, it's kind of a cash cow for influencers right now who have their affiliate code for any random peptide company. Unfortunately, most of them being sold for human research only companies, which doesn't make them bad per se, but back to what you were alluding to, In many cases, these things have failed lab tests for purity, not to mention that sterility and shipping is an issue. Sterility and like consumer application is an issue in terms of people just not understanding proper alcohol swabbing, proper mixing tactics, proper injection protocols. So yeah, I think they hold a great deal of promise, but unfortunately, the industry is still pretty rife with tainted product or people who don't know what they're doing. Or, the other issue is just poor consumer education and people just not understanding, for example, receptor saturation with peptides, it's in super fast. So, almost every single one that exists needs to be cycled. Back to our earlier discussion, you don't take every supplement every day. Peptides are very similar. I mentioned thymosin alpha-1 for the immune system. Yeah, it's great for the immune system, but if you use it every day, you're eventually not going to have much thymus response at all to the injection. And, the same could be said for the blood flow response to BPC-157 or the tendon or ligament response to TB-500. I mean, many of these need to be cycled. And, that's a concept that, A, it's difficult to educate people on that, and B, it's technically illegal for for the sold-for-human-research peptide companies to educate people on that because they're not supposed to be giving out prescriptive advice. It's illegal.

Yeah, yeah, I know. However, they're still doing it and it's everywhere. And I mean, yeah, click the link in my bio. It's real.

Still the Wild West. I would love to talk a little bit more about what's going on at the Health Optimization Summit this year. We've alluded to it a couple times. For those of you listening, I'll link to it at BenGreenfieldLife.com/Tim2026 if you want to dig into the details or attend yourself. But, walk me through what's new this year, Tim, as far as the format.

Oh, man. So, the space, as I've said a couple of times now, the space has grown significantly in the last year, probably 30, 40% bigger this year, the amount of people that are coming into biohacking or health optimization or longevity or whatever. And, we've got Gary Brecker and Brian Johnson and all these other guys that are helping make it go mainstream. And the Blue Zones has also helped quite a lot in the last year. And as a result, you know, where there's more demand and things are going mainstream, more money starts flowing in. And a lot of funds or new startups are coming in to fulfill the problems that the world is facing. For instance, you know, the Maha movement has grown quite a lot, and politics to one side, but make it Make America Healthy Again has been a really good initiative for health. And as a result, it's showing, showing how, you know, certain things like laundry detergent brands or products have got loads of things in it that they shouldn't and brands are popping up. So as a result, there's a lot of people coming into the space that aren't actually health advocates like you and I, that aren't geeking out on every technology or supplement and they don't want to spend a weekend at a show. They want to go on a day where they're paid.

So.

Right.

I— this year for London, I decided to create the first ever 3-day format, which is the Friday is the business of health. So if you're an influencer and you want brand sponsorships, you'll find your brands. If you're a brand that needs influencers, they'll be there. If you're an investor looking to invest in health startups or companies, likewise. And the same if you're a brand looking to raise money. And then putting everyone into, into a room and making sure that the connecting is proper. Then we, as a result, there's not going to be 4,500 people there is on the weekend. It's going to be probably about 700 people on the business day, meaning—

okay, so, so is that like limited? Are you like vetting or curating who's in the room as far as like you got to be a business owner, you got to be, I don't know, an influencer, or however you categorize that? Or is it just like whoever wants to get a ticket and get a ticket?

So it's vetted for business purposes only, because then when you're walking around the exhibition floor and this is a problem I found over the last few years, I can't go 3 meters without being stopped and spoken to. And that's fine because it's obviously my show. But the point is I don't get to enjoy the show myself or get to go around the vendor hall and having, you know, around 600 people in a hall that holds 5,000 people means you can get around and enjoy the show. Yeah, those are the big deals are being done, you know, where the big technologies are meeting distributors and wholesalers and things like that. And it gives you a bit more time to enjoy the floor as a VIP as well. So it's a very strong business day. We've got some really great speakers coming along. We've got Lestat, who's the founder of Health.com here in the UK. We've got Daniel Priestley speaking. We've got a massive headliner, which I'm not allowed to announce just yet. For the business day. So, that's that. I mean, we have Shark Tank style investor sessions, sessions focused on scaling health and longevity brands, networking events so you can meet co-founders, operators, strategic partners and things. And then, yeah, quite a lot going on there. And then, across the weekend—

Oh, well, by the way, let me stop you. The Shark Tank style investor thing where different companies in the health sector are like, pitching this. I know you always have a few good investors there on the panel. In terms of who's won that in previous years, has that actually been a rocket booster or anything like that for any of the businesses or are there any that have kind of risen from the ashes based on winning the pitch or being close to winning the pitch at the Health Optimisation Summit?

Yeah, it has actually because last year I think it was about a £50,000 or £75,000 prize for the winner and it was actually Dr. Victoria Sampson's oral microbiome testing company that won last year for London. And actually, I recently recorded with her, that's gone out. And, um, so there's a cash prize and a whole load of marketing that comes with it, and that worked really well for them last year. And also, I'm not sure if it's the— I think it's the previous year, we also had, um, someone that created a mental health app for teenagers that were struggling in life that didn't get the support they needed, and that won And, that's done very well as well since. So, it's really helping get the right people to help the right brands to really grow the things that move the needle or really are needed in the world opposed to just another compound that doesn't really help more than 0.1% of people in the world.

Well, hopefully, the teen mental health app works better than GPT. I know there's some controversy about that going on right now. What about like after the business day is going to be? Does it go Friday, Saturday, Sunday, the whole event?

Yeah, it does.

Yeah.

So, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday is the usual run of show.

Okay.

We're just about to announce Bear Grylls as our headlining keynote this year. So, I'm really excited. Yeah. He's a proper legend in the space as you know. And, he hasn't really spoken at a biohacking event before. So, I'm excited. Yeah.

If there's like an earthquake or the power goes out or anything like that, we'll have a survival expert around to help us all out. Help us build a shelter and make some fire, catch a fish.

That's great.

Yeah.

So, yeah, Bear Grylls is one of our headline keynotes. Okay. Yeah. But the weekend then is actually expanded quite a bit. We've— because the space has changed quite a lot in the last year, I was like, how can we evolve the show to make it even more immersive and have more fun and connect with more friends and things like that? So we've evolved it quite a lot with a few breakout areas and chill-out areas and It's not just a VIP room for the VIPs anymore. There's just so many things spread around the whole show. So, it's evolving. And also, we're going to have full-body MRI screening outside. We've got a massive trailer for MRI screening. So, you can do a full-body scan while you're at the summit, which is going to come in at a really special price. It's about 30% of the price that most full-body MRIs charges. So, that's going to be a really interesting feature. So, you come and get your full-body MRI done, which in fact I took my mom for about 3 weeks ago to have a full-body MRI at 76, which was good, and she's in better shape than me.

Wow. I bet she enjoyed that, lying in the tube. I saw on my notes that you're going to have a gym zone there as well. What's going to be in that?

Yeah, that's Gym of the Future. So, I think the other thing with the space growing so quickly is over here, our Equinox is called kind of third space here in the UK. Third Space is kind of like the pro, the better gym. And they've recently announced that they're doing biohacking and recovery technologies and they've got a flagship location coming up and all the sports and gym shows are all starting to have biohacking technologies in. And because it's grown so much, it's like, well, actually I want to build the gym of the future. I want to have the technologies, recovery things, everything in one place so that you could expect to see in a gym soon. And in America, it's much more normal, commonplace to have gyms that have a lot of the, you know, have a hyperbaric chamber in. But in the UK, you know, we're 5, 6, 7 years behind for the most part. So yeah, we're pulling that together and having the gym of the future so you can come in and do a workout and work around and use all the different technologies.

Are you going to actually have the hyperbaric chamber that you can exercise inside of?

Yeah, yeah, we are.

Well, that's cool. I've worked out on— I don't have one, I've still got just the soft shell at my house, but Gary Brecka has the hard shell with the rowing machine, dumbbells. It's something else to work out in a pressurized oxygen-rich environment.

Yeah. I mean, I saw Gary's at Christmas when I was over there and yeah, he's got a rowing machine in there, he's got the weights and he's also got a kettlebell. Camera and a TV so you can work in the hyperbaric while rowing.

It's just—

it's, it's wild. So yeah, so we've got one like that coming in at the show as well, which is going to be super, super exciting.

All right, cool. I want to popcorn a little bit because I, I took a look at some of the other vendors that you have there, and there's some cool tools. So obviously hydrogen therapy is a big thing right now. Um, what, what are you looking at in terms of the expo space as far as like what's coming down the pipeline for hydrogen technologies?

Well, so there's a brand called Inhale H2, which is by a mutual friend of ours, Alex Tanava. I can never say that correctly. So that's the, the H2 mask. So you can sit down and breathe it. You don't have to just drink a tablet or have a bottle around with you. In fact, I really love the device. In our retreat we did in Corfu about a month ago, Alex flew over some of the devices and had it in the recovery lounge, which is really good.

Yeah. I have one, by the way. It's the highest concentration of hydrogen you can inhale without risk of explosion, which is nice to have that insurance, that peace of mind that you're not going to spontaneously combust. But, from what I understand after talking with them, within 30 minutes, you get full-body saturation. That's kind of the equivalent of drinking dozens of bottles of hydrogen water.

Apparently so, yeah. I mean, it's so powerful because obviously, it's a selective antioxidant and anti-inflammatory. So, it's such a powerful thing. I actually really love it. I find that my sinuses and my workouts are better when I've used it quite significantly. I find that sometimes when I'm in the city, my sinuses are not as clear as I would like. And, decongestion spray works very well obviously, but you can't live on that stuff. And, inhaling H2O, that works so, so, so, so well. And, in fact, my heart rate variability is always better whenever I use the H2 device. My heart rate variability is better, and I think that's because I'm breathing better, meaning I'm more rested, more vasodilation, and then sleep better as well as a result. So, that kind of gives me about 8 to 10% better sleep as a result of using H2. So, I really love that stuff. However, when you're on the move, I use one of those Echo water floss.

Yeah, I bounce back and forth between those and the tablets. Which are both good. I saw a picture on the website of this bioenergy thing where somebody was holding two nodes against somebody's skin. I forget the name of it, but can you describe that to folks? Because from what I understand, it's going to be at the expo, but I don't quite know what it is.

You're talking about BEST? Yeah.

Yeah. So, okay. Yeah, the bioenergy stimulation.

That's exactly right. So it puts an electrical pulse through your body, so it increases ATP production by around 500 or 600%, somewhere around there. Helps improve protein synthesis. So it also helps by reducing inflammation and pain. So there's a technology that actually has been around quite a while, and we've had it at the show, I think, 2 or 3 years in a row now. As you know, like, electrical medicine is really making a big comeback, and it's been kind of shunned or belittled for many years. But I think with the rise of the longevity space and how many electrical technologies are coming through, especially like with the BioCharger, for instance, and how well these things are working. So this is— yeah, this is a really good device. I like those guys. The third or fourth year in a row that they've been with us.

How does it work exactly? Do you know?

I don't actually know. All I know is the results I get from from it. And, from what I hear from everyone, it's fantastic. So, all I know is it's bioenergy stimulation. That's it.

Okay. So, it's like two different electrical nodes that are attached to the skin. I'm assuming they're just pushing different frequencies through the body.

Exactly, exactly, yeah.

Interesting.

Okay, cool.

What about the one, it's called like "Gariani"? It says that it's doing infrared heat, quartz therapy, sound therapy, and vibration. Is that a bed or—

Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

It's like a Funky bed. A really funky bed. Yeah, actually, I met them at A4M in December, actually. And it's really nice. It's a little bit more woo in some cases, but it's actually a really nice technology. I only had about 10, 20 minutes on it, something like that. The A4M. There's a few funky things like it. I'm trying to remember another brand, I think. It's gone from my mind. I don't know why. I can't remember right now. It'll come to me in a minute, I'm sure. But yeah.

Well, what's it do? What's the one you're thinking of? What's it do?

So, it's got crystals and different stones under it such as—

Oh, you mean like the BioMat?

Yeah, kind of like this. Yeah. And then, they put warmth, it kind of comes off warmth on your skin. And works in a kind of a resonance way. So, that's a brand new one. Actually, I think we signed those up last week and I've only used it once. But, I think some of the things that are really, really great are things like the stem cells. So, we've got Dr. Toby talking about drawing blood, taking out 10 million stem cells and putting him back 200 million of your own stem cells back in within 4 hours. So, that's going to be featured at the summit again this year.

So, talk to me about how that works. So, they're literally taking out blood and somehow growing stem cells from your own blood?

Have we not discussed this? So, when I went to the Superhuman event in Stockholm last year where Bryan Johnson was speaking and I met this Swedish handball player, he was massive, Dr. Toby. And he told me that when he was drawing blood throughout the day, he would see, he was testing to see stem cell levels in people naturally. And he said he was generally looking at 8 to 10 million per sample. But he spun them, he stored them in the fridge, and then through the night he was testing the samples to see what the average stem cell count was for the attendees. The further he got through the night, the higher the levels seemed to be. And when he looked actually from drawing the blood, spinning it, storing it in the fridge for 4 hours, the stem cells would multiply probably through hormesis, i.e., without any manipulation or enzymes or anything to— not culturing the stem cells because that's obviously illegal, but you could draw out around 8 to 10 million and put back in about 200 million within 4 hours.. And so when I heard this, I was like, okay, I need to know a bit more about this, and then I'm going to jump on a plane and I'm going to come see you and get this done. And in fact, I actually did. And when he drew, drew the blood out for me, he had, uh, 8 million stem cells came out, 186 went back in me. And as I left the clinic, we were going to go through—

186 million?

Yeah, exactly. Wow. Um, as we're walking down the road to go for a steak after the clinic session, I said to him, I think I'm probably going to have to— I'm probably going to have to go back to my hotel because my hip's clicking and my tennis elbow from 6 months ago is flaring up really badly and I'm just not feeling—

Yeah, like it, like, reinitiated.

Exactly. And he said, no, this is completely fine. You know, when you mobilize stem cells one way or another, you know, they find what's broken, cause a bit of inflammation as they start going to work. And yeah, within 10 days, my tennis elbow that I've been fighting for 6, 7 months vanished. It's literally gone and my hips stopped clicking and stopped aching all over. It's really fantastic. So, he'll be speaking and he'll—

Is there a name for that protocol? Do you know whatever he's doing with the stem cells?

No, there's not.

And so, he's talking about it at the event, but he's not like— Is he going to be offering that procedure to people?

No, but I'm sure we can both get it done.

Interesting.

Wow. Yeah. So, so it's a very, a very cool treatment, actually. I've had it done twice already and I really feel fantastic from it. But for those, essentially, it's, it, I would say, democratizing stem cell treatments. It's making it available to a lot more people because it's basically a blood draw, store, and then put back in. So I think you can have, you know, the equivalent of 20 or 30K worth of stem cells for 4 or 5K, something like that. So, it's actually pretty accessible.

By the way, speaking of stem cells, have you had a MuCell treatment before or have you come across those?

No, no.

Tell me. I think that's the future of stem cell therapy right now. They're tiny. They extract them the same way as you would get mesenchymal stem cells from umbilical tissue, but then they fractionate just the very, very smallest portion called MuCells. Which stands for something like multi-lineage stem cell extract, something like that. Anyway, so there's no immune reaction, meaning you actually don't get a lot of that kind of painful flu-like irritation inflammation reaction, no carcinogenicity. They home very precisely into tissue even if they're done via IV. And, the results that people are getting right now with them are incredible. So, I've had 2 infusions and then 1 knee injection, and they are game changers. They're what a lot of regenerative medicine doctors now are talking about, at least in the US.

MUSE cells.

MUSE. Yep, MUSE. They're definitely more expensive than regular stem cells, but as far as efficacy, I think they're unparalleled as far as anything I've come across.

Interesting. So, when I spoke to Dr. Toby yesterday, I said to him, how's it going? And, he basically sent all of his findings off and he's been published now. But one of the things he said, the samples that he sent off and had reverified had all three pluripotency markers. And there was some of the interesting findings was a huge amount of even smaller cells in the mix. But the pluripotency cells are in the range that were measured in lab with his methods. So basically, yeah, you get the pluripotency and smaller cells. And in fact, he said, my cell counter only sees cells from 1 micrometer. And apparently the mix has huge amounts of significantly smaller cells too. So, it sounds— I've just messaged him while we're talking now just to say about—

Yeah. I'd be curious if he knows much about the Muse cells. We've certainly strayed a little bit from fresh air and sunshine and the fundamentals, but that's okay. This is fun. What else that is interesting is going to be at the expo that you've come across lately?

Well, yeah. No, I mean, one thing that obviously stem cells are something that our body naturally releases from our bone marrow, right? And one of the brands that I really rate that I take probably 5 or 6 days a month is Stem Regen. So that's a natural supplement that helps you mobilize your own stem cells from your bone marrow. So if it is something that you do want to dip your toe into the water with, but not necessarily have your blood drawn and have hundreds of millions of stem cells put back in, Stem Regen is a really good one.

And then that's like a, like an oral capsule-based supplement, right?

Exactly, yeah. I would say, like you said about, you know, injecting certain peptides, you don't want— I don't think you should do it month-round, year-round. I think it should be, you know, you do 5 days a week and then probably 3, 3 weeks a month and then have a couple of months off and do it. I find that to be very good. In fact, I found Stem Regen to be awesome, so they're going to be there in a big way. We've got a vagus nerve stimulator, NeuroPulsetto, sorry, exhibiting as well. So, I don't know if you've seen— have you seen these ones where most— Pulsetto.

Is this the one that you wear around the neck and it's kind of like a hands-free electrical vagal nerve stimulation?

Exactly. So, most— in fact, the studies were done on vagal nerve stimulation from one side on one ear, right? Here, which is the, the end of the vagus nerve, basically. But Pulsetto have said, well, actually, yeah, just because the studies are done there doesn't mean that you shouldn't actually stimulate both sides. So, okay, they've created a device that goes around your neck here and sends the impulses, very gentle impulses to the skin. And I found that actually, like with all of these devices, when people send me these things to try out and like, yeah, I'm wondering if it's actually going to have any any result. But I find that after a really overly stimulated day in the office, so to speak, and I sit on the sofa and I'm still wired and I don't want to sit down and I just want to go for a run or lift something or do whatever and I need to wind down, I put on the Pulsetto and it really does work. It really does work. It gets me into a calm state pretty quickly.

Yeah. Well, a lot of these devices you got to hold up with a hand to your neck. And they're not bad. TrueVaga is one example. There's a few others, but I'm kind of in the same boat as you, hands-free vagal nerve stimulation, especially if you're going to nap, meditate. I have a pair of headphones. They're called HOOLEST, H-O-O-L-E-S-T. And you can put them on and listen to tracks like let's say NuCalm or some other meditative track. But then there's nodes that come out from underneath the headphones and on either side of the neck kind of similar to where the Pulsetto sits. It does vagal nerve stimulation but then you're wearing headphones simultaneously. And, that's one, I'll rock a NuCalm track on an airplane while doing the vagal nerve stimulation and you just— it's like smoking a joint without smoking a joint. Your whole body just kind of melts, relaxes, For people who haven't messed around with vagal nerve stimulation, back to electrical modalities versus say supplements or drugs, I think they're incredible.

One thing I want to ask you about is what do you think about PMF specifically?

I think the lower power devices may have an impact on things like depolarization of cells, blood flow, maybe a little bit of an anti-inflammatory effect. But, my number one use case for PEMF is with the higher power devices because any muscle, let's say the low back, that's in a cramped or spasmic state, as soon as a higher power PEMF, the ones that you can actually hear like the tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, that would be the Hugo or the Pulse Centers or a few of Dr. William Pawluk's devices. Those are 3 examples of manufacturers that make higher-power devices. It is probably one of the top things in my toolbox for injuries, cramps, or spasms. The lower-frequency ones, you kind of like— you keep your fingers crossed that they're working because you can't actually feel the frequency. But, the ones that you actually feel, In terms of injuries or tight spots or sore spots, I'm a huge fan.

I love that you said that actually because there's a brand that comes to our conference every year. It's called Cell8, and they have a device about this big, which is—

Yeah, I'm familiar with it.

—frequency. And, I sat down with the founder, Andy, a few weeks ago at the CoreFu retreat, and we had a panel discussion, I guess, or a fireside talk about it. And, he actually had a device that could measure how much power this thing was giving off. And, in fact, you could measure it for 6, 8 feet around you almost from this one low-power device and then compare it to the higher-power ones. So, I said to him originally when they didn't have the high-power one, there is an element of placebo here as well because if you're not twitching as the machine's going off, you don't think it's working. And yet you can actually measure these things with a device to show that they actually are, but not necessarily having such a physiological response to it. I think it's the same when people are taking multivitamin versus a painkiller. They know the painkiller is working, so they take it. They don't know if the multivitamin is. They don't. In fact, they probably need the multivitamin and don't need the painkiller in the long term. And I think the same with PMF. So, I have one of these devices and I meditate, journal, whatever every morning with it when I'm in the city. Obviously, I don't need it when I'm on the beach or in Tuscany, but I find it to be really good. And actually, I dug a little deeper and I spoke to Bob Dennis who was the inventor of PEMF. Oh, yeah.

I've talked with him. Yeah.

He's a great, great guy. And I said to him, "Tell me a bit more about it." He said, "Well, Tim, I can't quite understand because I don't even have to market my product." He said, "It just seems to sell." And I said, well, if it's a ball bearing, you're going to have a hard time selling it. But if it's a device that's really working, then you're not going to need to market it too much. And this is the case, I think, with PEMF in general. And then I dug into it and he said to me, have a look at the— I think it was a chicken, chicken bone damage study that they did where they cut out a chunk of bone of a chicken and used PEMF device on it. And how it helped the bone heal significantly, very quickly. Yeah, I find— so I find this again, it comes back to the electromedicine side of things that we're discussing earlier on by— with BEST, the device you were talking about earlier. I'm really fascinated by it, to be quite honest. And when I look at how after a 10-hour flight, how my red blood cells are all clumped together when I look under a darkfield microscope, for instance, as you do. Yeah, as you do after a flight. Exactly. And then, you go grounding for an hour, you'll see how different your red blood cells are. Well, actually, I find the same from using low frequency. Yeah.

That's how I'll sometimes describe PMF is kind of grounding on steroids. And even the low frequency ones beyond— So yeah, the higher power devices, I shouldn't say frequency, I should say power. The higher power devices, you certainly feel more in terms of tight muscles or an injured spot, for example. And then, if you look at the research that you were alluding to on osteoblastic stimulation for bone cells, stem cell mobilization, and then also something we didn't bring up, which is induction of certain brainwave states, the lower power devices do have good research behind them. That Cellerate, for example, they have a controller that can then attach to a mat And, you can literally, if you're traveling and don't have room for the mat, you can put the controller underneath your pillow in sleep mode or meditative mode and you can actually feel a little bit of the pulse through the pillow. It's very slight, but it's enough to induce this relaxation state. You could do the same thing by, say, putting it behind your lower back while you're on an airplane or in a car. So, that Cellerate device, well, I like it. I don't know if you've noticed when using it, you can actually feel a little bit of the contraction coming out of it.

Very, very slightly, yeah. Yeah. No, I'm a big fan of this actually. And again, when I'm traveling, I don't even think about it. The moment I'm back on my sofa or in London working here, I tend to feel like it really, really benefit from it. However, I think this is another device actually that I'm a big fan of, which what works in a similar manner or in a different manner but in a similar output is the Human Regenerator, which is— I don't know, have you used this yet? The big funky looks like Apple. It's a big white device with green lights. Oh, yeah.

I've been in it 3 times. It's not necessarily from an affordability standpoint a consumer-friendly at-home device, but yeah, it's like a giant It fits in this whole wellness bed category, right? Yeah, exactly.

I mean, there's plenty of them on yachts and in Monaco and all the funky areas. I think they're about $150,000 a bed, but essentially what it is, is it's— have you heard of cold atmospheric plasma?

Yeah, yeah. Only as relates to the Human Regenerator, but yes. Okay.

So, yeah, cold atmospheric plasma has been used in more localized therapies for years. But in essence, when you're on the med bed, you are grounded and then in a 30,000-volt static electricity field, which is essentially almost like hypergrounding, the amount of electrons, free electrons that you'll get going into the body. It's like people— I remember one person telling me that they had had, you know, kind of like warts all over their hands for years. And couldn't get rid of them, were trying all the different funky treatments on them and wouldn't go. And then did Human Regenerator 5 days in a row and for the first time they started vanishing. So I think what it does on a mitochondrial level, it must be quite significant to have that sort of an impact because, you know, if you're not grounding and you're not sleeping properly, people with warts or, you know, things like that typically get worse and worse and worse. Like, for instance, how many people get a cold sore breakout? And in fact, I do if I go 3 nights without proper sleep, I have a cold sore breakout. Oh, wow. And, that kind of always tells me that I'm teetering on the edge of pushing it too hard. But, with the Human Regenerator, it seems to just completely quash that. So, I'm really excited to have them back actually this year.

Yeah, that's a good one. If you can squeeze into that if you're at the expo, it will reset your nervous system for sure. I've laid on it, I think, every time I've gone to the summit at some point during a busy day. And, it definitely pushes the reboot button. Hey, because we didn't even mention yet, what are the dates this year for the summit?

It's 11th, 12th, and 13th of September this year in London.

Okay, cool. And then, what I'll do in the show notes, and by the way, I'll be there. I would love to see some of you listening there. I consider it to be one of the, if not the best, health event of the year that I attend. If you go to BenGreenfieldLife.com/Tim2026, I will put a link in the shownotes. We've got a discount code that you can use for a discount of registration. There's options. I'm assuming you guys have a VIP room and stuff as well, Tim, this year for people who want the upgrade.

Yeah. Yeah. We've gone VIP this year.

Yeah, incredible. Alright. So, BenGreenfieldLife.com/Tim2026. Tim, this is fantastic.

I can't wait to see you in September. Yeah, likewise, man. It's fun to have our yearly catch-up.

Yeah, exactly. And more to come in September. Folks, leave your questions, your comments, your feedback where the shownotes reside. Again, at BenGreenfieldLife.com/Tim2026 where you can also sign up for this year's Health Optimization Summit coming in September to London, have an incredible week.

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