How to Engage the Resistors with Kate Sikora | Episode 174

And then the other piece is just physical health. So I prioritize getting myself to yoga. I don't doesn't matter what it is that need that seems to be taking priority over that. There's nothing actually that does because that me being happy and healthy is is what's going to have the ripple effect across absolutely everything else that's going on and good night's sleeps. I also very much value that. But they would be the big ones I would say.

That was Kate Sikora I'm Ben Morton and this is your podcast. The Ben Morton Leadership Podcast is the weekly show where I bring you inspiring interviews with global thought leaders, managing directors and chief executives. Sometimes they will be well known people from huge organizations and other times they will be leaders from much smaller, lesser known organizations. Whatever the case, I guarantee that in every episode there will be something that you can learn from and apply in order to make you an even better leader. As you've just heard in today's episode, we are talking with Kate Sikora, the Managing Director of Noble Studios in the uk. We are focusing in on what to do when stepping into a more senior leadership role in order to be successful, deliver our objectives, engage our team, and of course stay fit and healthy as an individual. So listen on to Lead on folks. Some of the highlights of this conversation and the things you're going to hear Kate and myself talking about are what to do when we suddenly find ourselves in this situation where we are having to lead, influence and gain support of people with significantly more experience and tenure than us. This is the situation Kate found herself in as a 23 year old head of year group, as a teacher and something I experienced at exactly the same age when I suddenly finished my training and became a leader in the military. We're exploring the empathy and how we can use that to make the really tough decisions in business. Kate shares some of her advice for those of you who might be aspiring to a Managing Director or Chief Exec role in the future. And then we also tackle and cover off one of the age old questions that so many of us are continually wrestling with and trying to find the answers to, which is how do I maintain my energy, avoid burnout and strike the right balance, whatever that might look like for us. Plus of course, lots, lots more. So without any further ado, as they say, let's dive straight in. And please enjoy my conversation with Kate Sikora, Managing Director of Noble Studios.

Kate, can we start off by me asking about your very first sort of memorable leadership experience? Now that could Be a time when you was acting as a leader yourself or observing someone else be a leader and how that's gone on to shape and influence the leader you are today.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I didn't go straight into what is now considered to be my career when I was earlier on. So my first memorable experience probably dates back to when I was a teacher. I went to be a secondary school teacher straight out of university, and I was really lucky to climb up the ranks quite quickly in that role and found myself responsible for the Key Stage 3 program quite quickly. And with the responsibility of that job, I had to then convince some tenured teachers that they needed to start to change some things, to meet the curriculum and do some things a bit differently. And when you're faced with teachers that have been in their roles for coming up to 30 years and they have their plans very much in place, it was not the easiest thing to try and do in terms of implementing change. And I was young, I was 23, I think, at the time. And so it was just a real challenge, actually, so early on in my career. And I think of one in particular teacher who was just steadfast, like, I am not going to do what you tell me to do. And I really had to develop skills pretty quickly in that moment to get what I wanted to happen through the door. And it taught me several things that I have taken through my career, actually. I would say it taught me to lead with empathy in the first instance. It's taught me to be quite creative with my leadership and it definitely taught me sheer resolve as well, because ultimately we had to get to a point where things were happening in the way they needed to happen. So, yeah, I had empathy first. I think I always do still to this day have empathy in how I'm going to approach things and lead change in whichever direction we're going in. And I think when you lead with empathy, it's just making sure that everybody has a voice and are heard because it's really important that everyone has a role to play. And that's what I did in this instance. I definitely think creative leadership is important. So, again, something I still do today is how are we looking at the individual, how are we looking at how they need things to happen and how can we be creative in supporting them through the transition of what we're trying to achieve? And then, yeah, resolve, absolute resilience to get things done. You need a lot of grit and determination, I think, a lot of the time. So that came through in that moment when I was 23. And trying to figure things out. And I've taken that with me the whole way.

Oh, I'd love to unpack that a little bit for two reasons like number one, listen to you say talk about that example. And being around about 23, 23 years old, it reminded me of my own career. So around about 23, I was a 23 year old troop commander in the army and I was deployed to Iraq. But similar in many ways, similar situation. Right. I was very young, very fresh out of training and suddenly here I am trying to, to lead people who had been in the army for 12 years in my troop with loads of experience and here was I like very fresh faced, like boy. And then the other reason wanted to unpack it a bit more is like that's quite a common challenge for people in work. Right. Just this week as we recording this, I'm straight off running a leadership program. At the end a lady grabbed me. So Ben, can I have some time with you? I suddenly find myself leading this one person. It's been in the team for 12 years, load of experience. They're being quite resistant to me and some of my ideas like help.

I don't think any of those things have changed over the years. I still have these instances where these that same 20, I'm obviously I'm different now, I'm not 20 anymore. But the challenge that I was faced with then it comes up again all the time. You're constantly, I'm constantly leaning on those tools and I honestly teaching wasn't for me but I'm so grateful for having got that experience at such a, such a young age because it has meant that I've now from. I have taken that with me and I've used it at several stages throughout my career in different ways and developed it and changed, changed it over time. But yeah, it's all been incredible how much that's influenced, I think how I've become and shaped myself as a leader.

Yeah. And you mentioned empathy there quite a lot. So I'm curious, how did you actually use that? Was it an element of really trying to understand sort of their position, some of their resistance and just making sure they felt sort of listened and understood or was there something else you were sort of practically doing, I guess to win those people round? Right.

Yeah, I think I lead with empathy on pretty much everything where it makes sense because I think it's important to have an understanding of everybody's position and views to be able to make a sound decision on what you're trying to achieve and also to give you the ability to think about things a bit differently and take on board things that maybe you hadn't considered. You know, we weren't brought into the roles that we're in as leaders, knowing everything about everything. And that's one of the biggest things about this, is that you're constantly in this learning cycle. And I think leading with empathy enables you to adopt and take on views that maybe you just hadn't realized or seen and then looking for different tools and tactics to solve any issues or things that you're trying to achieve or get things across the line in a way that are going to make sense. I always think about the Love Languages and I hate the name of the Love. Yeah, yeah, it's just too cheesy in that. But it is. So from a, like, from foundational perspective, it does make a lot of sense. Everybody has their way of doing things, everyone has their way of approaching things. And leading with empathy helps you to recognize, okay, well maybe you're more of this person or you're more of this person. And, and how can we build in processes or strategies that are going to help you, knowing that you're that kind of a person, achieve what we're all collectively trying to achieve together or how can we get going in this direction knowing that about you? So yeah, I think it's important.

So the Love Languages piece, I came across that years ago actually, for those who've not heard of it, it's think about if words is important to somebody.

Time, time, words of affirmation, time, acts of service.

Bit of a weird one in the workplace and, and gifts, isn't it? Is gifts another one?

Yeah, gifts is another one. And I mean it's great. It's brilliant. If you've not read it, it is really good. It helps with every relationship. Personal. I think it starts mostly with the personal relationships. Me and my husband did it, read those books when we were first married. But it's applicable in every relationship that you have to a certain degree. And it's just, it just helps you to have again, empathy for different thoughts and different approaches and ways of thinking about things that maybe you haven't had before.

Yeah, it's interesting. I often find myself joking with, with groups and clients when I'm working with them saying like, if this doesn't work out for me, kind of leadership training, I'm either going to go into like relationship counseling or, or parenting training. But actually so because so many of the tools and techniques and frameworks we same. But actually if you sort of go Back to first principles. That makes total sense because leadership is about people and it's about relationships. Whether it's leading people, a romantic relationship, a friendship, or your kids. It's all relationships, right? It's the same.

It is all relationships, ultimately. And I think that's the thing I love the most about the job that I do, which I'm probably skipping ahead here, but it is the relationship piece and understanding how people work and what drives them and where the passion comes from, that to me is just brilliant. And it's such a interesting thing to be able to do every day.

Hey, quick one for you. You've just heard Kate and myself really focusing in there on the importance of relationships when it comes to leadership.

Well, if you've got any sort of company conference or event coming up in the future, please drop me a line and we can have a conversation about how you can book me to deliver my new keynote speech at that talk. It centers on why connection is the true currency of leadership. I share with audiences a pivotal moment in my military career and then how I've continued to explore that and turn it into tangible insights and actions from the world of psychology and neuroscience. If you're interested, drop me a line@chatn morton.com or of course, visit the appropriate page of my website. Back to the episode and sticking with.

This theme of relationships, if for a second I try and put myself into the seat of a percentage of people listening to this and back to the empathy conversation we was having and trying to get people on board with our plans, vision or approaches for the people maybe sitting there thinking, yeah, this is great, Ben, this is great, Kate. But so I've led with empathy. I've really tried to understand the position of someone in my team and what I've heard is their position is the complete opposite of mine, then what, what do you do then? When you've really tried to understand their perspective, but they just see things completely different and what they think is the right direction is completely different to yours, then what do or did you do?

Well, I think then it's a culture. Then you're talking different things. I think at that point, then you kind of have to remove the emotion and the empathy from it and just decide whether or not that person's the right, right culture. Do they have the same values as you? Because assuming you've built values under your business and you've got business values that you hold true most of the time, you should all be rowing in the same direction. If you, you know, there's going to be nuances to that. There always is. But for the most part I would expect that you would. You would all be heading relatively in the same direction. There wouldn't be anything major. When I hear that, I immediately go to a place of are they the right person and in the right seat. If they're the right person, they might be in the wrong seat or they maybe they're not the right person at all. And you just need to straight analyze that and decide whether or not they're the right fit because that sounds also like a distraction. If somebody's taken that much of your time, they are also taking up valuable time from you that maybe shouldn't that it's just if it's too hard, it's not working. I don't know if you've read Traction, but we are attract. We do traction. Our agency not to do it religiously, I suppose, but we do a lot of the methodologies in there and the people analyzer tools actually been really handy in those moments of say, conflict or tension where something that's been going on for too long. It sounds like that one. I know it was a hypothetical example, but it's been going on for too long and you're really still not on the same page. And you're not necessarily ever going to get there sitting down and just doing the people analyzer tool and applying it to that. That one individual helps create clarity because the chances are if they're. They are probably feeling like it isn't the right thing either in. In that moment as well.

You know, I'm really glad we landed on that question. It's good to hear hear your take because I think empathy is something that's been spoken about much more these days in leadership over the past few months, that lot of conversations about it on. On the podcast. But I think there is still a percentage of leaders and people out there who hear the word empathy and think soft. It's all very, very nice. It's perhaps too much about the people, not enough about the business and the numbers. But it's really nice that hearing you sort of answer that question, leading with empathy and coming from that place doesn't mean you can't still make tough decisions. Right. About people. But what it does mean, I guess is and then when you have to make those tough decisions and have tough conversations, you can still have them with empathy and see the human being in front of you rather than being quite brutal about it.

Yeah, exactly. I mean we're not always going to be the best fit. You're not Going to always do the right. Make the right hiring decision. You're not always going to, but so long as you can lead with empathy in that moment and create a plan that's empathetic, but act in the way that's going to have empathy for the rest of the business and everybody else that's on that. In your world, thinking about it that way as well, you don't have to just have empathy for that. That person in that moment.

Oh, I love that.

Everybody else, that you're also growing and nurturing and, and leading, essentially.

Yeah, I love that. Switching tack ever so slightly. Kate, so you've been managing director for Noble Studios in the UK for approaching four years now, is that right?

Yeah, so we've been in the market for, well, just over six years, but yeah, officially Maryland for four of those.

And obviously doing a lot of stuff. Right. Because recently nominated for, was it Institute of Directors SME Director of the Year?

Yeah, yeah, that was. Yeah, it was a huge surprise. I had absolutely no expectation that that was going to happen, but it was wonderful and a lovely event and really grateful for the recognition. Yeah, it's very, very.

So, based on all of that then, what couple of pieces of advice would you give to someone who has set themselves the goal of working towards being a managing director, say in five or six years time? What are some of the must dos, the key things that you think would help them on that path, not just to get the role, but then to succeed once they get there?

Gosh, how many, how long have we got? First and foremost, I absolutely love being an md. Md. Let's just say that first because I've loved this role. It teaches you a lot about yourself being a managing director. You really know who you are and what you're good at and your strengths and weaknesses in the whole lot when you're in this role, because a lot of it's on you and you then really have to figure out what you are good at. Every MD role is going to be different depending on the size of the organisation that you're going into. I'm a managing director of a small but very quickly growing agency in the UK and I think the biggest piece of advice I would have for anybody that's going into this is really to have a look at who you are and figure out your susceptibility or ability to cope with change. I think because you're gonna, you're gonna. Every day is going to be different. You're gonna have to change your day throughout the day. You're gonna have to wear multiple different hats. You might one hour be wearing a financial hat. Next hour you're thinking about culture. Next hour you think, how are you thinking about commercial growth? Then you figure out a new piece of technology that you need to use to improve the workflow efficiencies of your team. Like it's never dull. You're consistently dealing with a new thing that you have to think about particularly and this is the difference between maybe an MD in a smaller agency versus a bigger company. So might not be as many hats in a larger organization, but it's constant change. You're always going to be asked questions that you weren't expecting or needing to jump on things that you weren't expecting. And I think if you already know that you're a person that's capable of that, then go for it. This is definitely the environment for you to be in and a role for you to go for. And then I would say in terms of how to prepare for coming into a role as an md, very difficult to prepare, but I would say that's what everybody says.

Actually everybody I ask says it's really difficult to prepare for it.

I think honestly preparing for it by knowing yourself is probably the best way to prepare. And being really self aware and when you come into a role like this I think is crucial and having that self awareness. But you know, there are so many other things you could do get yourself into every part of the business. An MD is responsible for knowing everything that's going on. So as much as you can learn about the commercial side of the business, learn about who the key stakeholders are on the board and what they do and what their role is, and maybe get one on one time with those key stakeholders so that you're really understanding what drives them and what their passion is. Understand the technical infrastructure of the company, understand how to learn, read a P and L and understand simple financial information, I would say those things, anybody can get going on that now and those are probably practical ways of getting going. But I think being self aware and having a real understanding of who you are will help you prepare the most reading. I think this is probably an obvious one, but there's so many books out there to help you. I could give you some examples of the ones that have really helped me. Agencynomics. I'm in an agency, so again industry dependent but agencynomics was a big one for me. Traction. I've already talked about it. Big one for me and an enormous binder that I read about the financials of agencies. I think that was by David Baker. That one was painful, but I got through it and it was ultimately good. But yeah, reading as much as you can, and I would say crucially, as well, as early as you can in your career. And I don't think this is contingent on seniority at all, is getting a business coach in as soon as you can. I didn't do this soon enough, I'll be honest. I think I should have gotten a business coach years ago. But I have been working with one now, James Johnson, for the last two and a bit years and he's been absolutely super in helping me grow as a leader and helping me to prioritize and navigate every single type of water. Because sometimes it's not always the stormy waters you need help with. There's also the calm waters that you need help with. So having somebody just to speak to and grow with has been really what's.

Been perhaps the most surprise in, if you're happy to go there, potentially uncomfortable thing you've learned about yourself. You've mentioned self awareness quite there. Like what's, what's that journey been like?

I think I'm still on it, to be honest with you.

I think we all are. Every, every day to the day. We're, we're done.

Yeah, that one's. Yeah, that one's not, not easy to answer. What has been the biggest thing I've learned about myself, I guess more recently? I have very high expectations and that's been quite a difficult one when you come to really realizing you have to delegate. And the art of delegation, I would say, has been extremely uncomfortable. I'm working on the, I keep on calling it Kate 2.0, but I think it's Kate 7 by this point. And it is, you know, working through the uncomfortable nature of completely rewriting your job description probably every six months to a year and being comfortable with the change that comes along with that because particularly if you're in a fast growing company, you're always going to be having to be ready for that. So delegation and change. I talked about change as being something you need to prepare yourself for. I don't think you ever can fully prepare yourself for it because it's always coming. But I would say that, yeah.

Well, if this makes you feel any better and probably for everybody listening as well, like from all of my work, like delegation is the thing that people always share as a, as a challenge, regardless of what level they're working at, whether it's occasionally when I'm running more of a junior leadership program right up to My coaching work, like people of all levels, still struggle with delegation for a number of reasons. Whether it's they won't do it as well as I can, it's just quicker if I do it myself. The time it takes to delegate isn't, isn't worth it. Or if I delegate, what will people think of me? Will they think I'm a slacker and what am I doing? Like a whole host of like, mind talk we've got around it, as well as some practicalities. It's, it's something that people really struggle with. One more very short interruption for you folks.

You've just heard Kate and myself talking about the importance of delegation and how it's something that so, so many of us struggle to do for a variety of reasons. Well, if this is you, then check out my online delegation mastery course, which is a quick fix to that delegation challenge. And because you are a member of my podcast community, if you enter code POD30P O D30, you'll get 30% off at the checkout. The links in the show notes back to the episode.

Yeah, it's really hard. I'm getting much better at it and letting the control piece calm down a little bit as well. I think they come, they kind of go hand in hand a little bit. I suppose you've got to let go of control to grow, but also not too much. And it's getting that fine balance between the two.

What would you say was the biggest sort of surprise since becoming an md? Like what surprised you? Was there anything you wasn't really expecting or, or prepared for that you notice sort of in the first six months to a year in role, I think.

I was naturally drawn towards the relationships, growth side of the business. Marketing all came very naturally to me. And there will be things that you. This is the thing about the MD role. There'll be things you're naturally really good at, and there'll be things that you have to teach yourself and get your head around to do the job well. And I think that's probably the biggest thing in that first year that you learn. This first year or two that you learn is that you're going to have pieces that you've got to really dig into to be successful. And I would say the financial side of things, I actually really love the financial side of the business and understanding the financial health of the company and digging into our, you know, we do monthly board meetings, P Ls, financial reviews, and we look at different ways we can model the finances. That bit I had to really get My head around though, in that first year, that was one of the big, big ones for me because it's difficult. Right. I'm not very much from a financial. Financial background. I remember trying to figure out QuickBooks in the early days. That was an absolute nightmare. But like I said, now I really enjoy it and we have a real grasp on the financials of our company and review that every single month. And it gives. It helps me sleep at night, I think in the early days I didn't think it was that important. I did think it was important, but I didn't think it was going to help me sleep at night as much as it does, but it does. And that was probably one of the biggest learning curves for me. The other bit I would say is the HR side of things, hiring. And I never really understood how hard that was going to be. Finding the right people and bringing them in and onboarding them effectively. I think that has been probably another piece that took me a bit more by surprise because I am such a relationships person. I thought that would come naturally, but it's actually very hard. And I would say that one took me by surprise too.

Yeah. What was it that's been hard about that?

It's the balance of getting the right person in on the right seat, matching your culture, that's quite hard. Like, you know, you're out looking for that person every time you're hiring somebody. That's quite difficult because there's a lot to weigh up there. And I've made mistakes over the years in making those decisions because I learned to culture or I learned to skills based and to grow a team. They're all again, rowing in the right. The same. Not the right direction, the same direction. You got to have that fine balance really figured out and then you've got to figure it out in two hours of interviews. Like it's not easy. So, yeah, there I think those are the two biggies for me. Getting my head wrapped around the financials and handling hr.

Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. And just before we hit record, Kate, you was saying sort of what a busy week it's been as we're recording this. And I know you've got a really busy week next week with your Be Better Bristol event on that you run. So that, that being the case, this was a nice prompt for me to think about a different question I hadn't planned to ask.

But.

And I was asked this again.

Yes, you're sending me a curveball right now. I can't believe you're doing this.

It's Not a hard curveball. Like I was asked this the other day in a leadership program as well. Like how do you manage and sort of maintain your sort of energy and motivation?

Oh, this one again, I have the right balance right now, but it's. You have to be at the center. If you're not happy and healthy and doing well, everything else is not going to be happy and healthy and doing well. And it's something that you have to prioritize to be able to bring that energy to your everyday. I journal every day. I actually, I was in a mastermind group the other day and I was joking about the fact that I literally have a journal for everything as well. Like I've got my business journal, I've got my life journal, I've got my five minute journal for what I need to do. Just be thinking in a positive mindset. But having that 10 minutes of reflection every day, whether you do it via meditating or journaling or just going in for a walk, that is crucial. And I couldn't bring everything else that I bring to the day without having that time for myself to do that. And then the other piece is just physical health. So I prioritize getting myself to yoga. I don't, doesn't matter what it is that need that seems to be taking priority over that. There's nothing actually that does because that me being happy and healthy is what's going to have the ripple effect across absolutely everything else that's going on. And good night's sleeps. I also very much value that, but they would be the big ones, I would say.

And has that always been the case for you, especially around the health piece or was there a particular catalyst that was the sort of trigger point for you to make a change and really learn that actually if you are happy and healthy at the center, then everything else works. Was there like a tipping point for you?

I would say that I barreled through the earlier parts of my career and barreled through the earlier parts of my time as an MD just doing as much as I could. Work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work. And you just, you just get to a point where you're just exhausted. There's no point. And I wouldn't say burnouts per se, I never got myself to that point. But you just, you're not useful to anybody when you get, you do that. You're, you're not useful to yourself, you're not useful your team, you're not useful for your family, your home. And I would say the tipping point probably was having My daughter and becoming a mother and. And that side of things and really having to get into that mind, shift into that world at the end of every day and get down on the floor with her and play with her and chat with her about her day and be healthy for her. And that was probably the tipping point for me and my husband. I would say we both worked like maniacs before that, and now we just see balance as being much more, much better. Don't get me wrong, there's still nights where you're up, up burning the midnight oil. And on Wednesday, I went to yoga. But then I came home and did two hours of work after yoga, which I, again, ideal world wouldn't have done, but I needed to get something finished. But I had prioritized yoga. But I'm just saying that because it's never as easy as that sounds. Right. Like, I may have gone and I did the class, but then I still came home and had to get something done.

Yeah, that's life, right? That's kind of what. That's life. That's what happens sometimes.

But I would say that, yeah, that would be the tipping point for me was that kind of love it. Establishing a home and a family in the life that needed me to be not only healthy for the. For my husband and the business, but also for her. And that just gave me a whole other piece of clarity, I suppose.

Yeah. And that's the biggest leadership job and test in the world. Right? Being. Being a parent.

Yeah.

Like, I see my daughter, she. My daughter's 12 now, and sometimes, like, I'll hear her. Her say something, go, oh, that's interesting. I'm not. I'm not sure. Kind of. I like. I like that or that tone. Then you go, oh, hang on. She's. She's got that from me. Because they're always watching. Right. And they. It's not just what we say that they pay attention to, like it said, truism in parenting as well as leadership. Right. People pay more attention to what you do than what you say.

Absolutely. They do. Oh, I've got so many stories on that one. Ben, I could be here. He's imitating us at the moment, but the moment I'm like, oh, yeah.

Whoops. Well, maybe linked to that then. Final question, Kate and I know this might be a tricky one for you. What would you say is the best mistake you've ever made? So something that at the time seemed or felt like a disaster or a catastrophe, but turned out to be quite fortuitous.

I'm going to struggle with this one, Ben. Partly because I think the mistake, I guess you framed it as the biggest mistake because mistakes happen all the time. I mean, I fail and fail fast and all of that, but I'm trying to turn this, I mean the most fortuitous thing that's ever happened was bringing Noble as a brand back to the UK and the offices over here. I'm trying to figure out how I frame that as a mistake because I guess in some ways, like the reason we, we decided to move back to the UK really wasn't, I guess, for that. So maybe the mistake that I made was not seeing the opportunity because it wasn't, it was something that came out of me and my husband moving back to the uk. It wasn't that we necessarily led with. And luckily I've got a fantastic mentor and the CEO of the company that is very much opportunity focused and saw this one and we went. So I suppose the biggest mistake was not seeing the opportunity there. And the most fortuitous thing out of it was obviously coming back to the uk, opening at this fab office in Bristol and growing it to being nearly 15 of us now. And yeah, just scaling up and up and up, which has been a very, very, I mean, incredible experience, I suppose.

Brilliant. And you mentioned your sort of boss, kind of founder there. Of course, we've had Jared on the show show previously and if people listening wanna check out that episode as well, we'll put the link in the, in the show notes for everybody listening so you can have a Noble Studios back to back binge listen for people listening.

Forgive us.

Kate, thanks so much for your time today, really appreciate it. We've really just honed in on sort of your becoming the MD there and the lessons and there's so many little, little nuggets in there, especially the conversation at the start around empathy. So thank you so much because I'm absolutely sure that everybody listening will have taken heaps from it, whether or not they're on that journey towards being an md. So thanks for your time, really appreciate it.

Sam.