22. How Chris Judd Dominated The AFL And Is Now Taking On The Macro Investing World.

Welcome back to the Bennet Bergs show where we speak about sport, investing, crypto and personal growth. And we've got a really special guest with us today, Chris Judd. Thanks for joining us mate.

Ben, good to be here Bergs, very nice to, very nice to meet. Thanks for having me on the show.

Nice to meet you.

It's. We. So Chris and I, we spoke at Myers University a couple of months ago and had a, had a ripper of a time we did. Anyway I'm not sure if the crowd did but. And we thought we'd bring him on and for those that don't know, Chris is a very famous AFL player, Hall of Famer, played for Carlton West Coast Eagles and now is transitioning to more of an investing role with Chris Judd. Invest and talk your book. You're doing a lot of media stuff mate but I wanted to maybe throw to you to give a better introduction of yourself, your transition out of footy and what you're up to now.

Thanks Ben. Yeah, well I played footy professionally for 14 years and then after footy worked as an analyst for a VC fund for about 18 months and I don't like VC investing. It's binary.

The companies to me look overvalued. Australia is a really small addressable market and whilst I was doing that I was investing equities and doing well and really enjoying that and just wondered why I was spending my whole day looking at opportunities I don't want to invest in when there was a heap I did want to invest in and after about 18 months made the transition to becoming a full time private investor and that's been a good journey. About three years ago, hired an analyst and have a lady working with me doing admin. So we're a really small team.

But yeah, I've been enjoying doing that really like macroeconomics and that's sort of the framework for how I invest and express that through listed equities, preferably micro cap listed equities. But in today's sort of liquidity environment I find myself investing more in larger cap opportunities until.

Those liquidity conditions improve.

And were you investing while you were playing football?

I was, I was like what I'd refer to as a stupid investor but I was buying ANZ and BHP and I say that because there's just no edge in owning that stuff. They're really well researched. You know, I'd read a couple of Warren Buffett books and decided I knew how to invest. And then I was 28, I met a guy from, from Perth who really taught me how to invest and taught me how to invest in microcaps. He was chairman of a stockbroking firm over there. Highly successful investor. And that really.

Changed my perception and probably made me understand how to sell stocks. You know, I think property investing is really about buying. You buy a really good property and you get a good debt deal on it. The urgency to sell isn't really there, particularly in the last 40 odd years. But in equities, particularly in small cap listed equities, the skill is in knowing when to sell. That's what separates good equity investors from poor ones. And you know, my mate in the west I'm still really close to today, really taught me a lot of those skills when I was, I was 28.

That's the questions we get in the group where it's like, when do I buy? Next question. When do I sell? Yeah, everyone is bad at selling. Yeah, even in crypto. I'm dying to know about your time in vc. So Ben and I, Ben's been pitching to investors for how many months, mate?

Five, six months?

Yeah, I've jumped on a couple of calls as well. And these guys just look dead, mate. They've got bags under their eyes, they're sucking on their vapes, they hate their lives, they're doing their little sums, they're not really listening. How did you find it when you were going through that experience?

Look, I was really lucky to have that opportunity and the people I worked with were great.

But I just found that I put a huge value on liquidity and I found when I saw the opportunities.

They were more expensive and they were illiquid than liquid listed opportunities, which made no sense to me. Every second founder you meet thinks they're the next Zuckerberg, selling hopes and dreams. Yeah, that's right. And I was at an impact fund as well. And.

Impact investing is really not my jam either. I think it ignores, it really oversimplifies a really complex world. And if you speak to most impact investors, and this is broad brushstrokes, they think it'd be a wonderful thing for the oil price to go to 250 bucks because that'll push people to stop using oil and they'd move to.

EVs and other solutions. And if oil was at 250 bucks, you know, death, you have a mass starvation event in third world countries, you know, and not to mention the, the challenges in first world countries. But you know, a lot of these impact investors ignore those second order effects and oversimplify is a really complex world. So that component really wasn't for me. So it wasn't a great fit. But by the same token I was, you know, in many ways, not in many ways I was under qualified for the role. So really grateful to get the opportunity. But by the same token was, was, was pleased I made the call to go and do something which, which fit better with, with how I view the world.

Absolutely. I like what you said about, you know, being macro and seeing how things actually connect and second and third order effects. Whereas if you're like, we do this, we see the world through here, this is the future, we're going to invest heavily in that. You're going to break the world or it's going to be really annoying if you have that brain that can see, you know, outside of that bubble and.

You just wonder how much of it is about trying to help the world and how much of it is about rich people in rich countries trying to make, give themselves meaning in how they're living their lives. And I think as we see cost of living pressures increase, I think, you know, people are going to have to become more aware of what some of these decisions mean for those less fortunate, particularly in those third world countries like we're seeing in Sri Lanka and a whole host of other countries at the minute.

Isn't that crazy? It's like Sri Lanka, they just turn the petrol off. It's like you can't drive your car, they've just stopped an entire country.

Yeah, it's crazy. And like interest rates, inflation, Turkey's up like 80%, Africa 40%. It's wild.

That's right, that's right. So, you know, the effects are real. Yeah, it's fascinating.

How do. What would you say, Chris? Like you're probably on the upper echelon of like knowledge of investing. Coming from the sports background, you know, sports players, you know, look at NBA, they are paid really, really well and a lot of these guys are taking their on court or on field brand and then turn them into media brands and investing and VC funds. Like you look at LeBron James or Serena Williams. What do you think the, I guess the average for Australian sports players across afl, you know, NBL are like, are these, is there a shift for those people to start to invest personally? They're using their capital well. Do they really know what they're doing? Do they get the help that they need to invest properly or I would.

Say no in broad brushstrokes. But there's always.

You know, it's always challenging when you're talking about 900 people as if they're one. So there's always a mix of personalities and skill levels at anything. But I think one of the challenges is.

You know, if you look at the incentive structure for player managers and clubs to offer investment advice, it's not really there. So if a player manager offers investment advice and it works out, the player will generally think, I've done well, I've invested well. If it works out badly, he'll go, this manager's no good, he's just cost me this. I'm finding a new manager and the club's a bit the same.

So it's trying to find that balancing act where a trusted third party can give that advice. Who's qualified to do so is probably a growth area that I reckon clubs can explore. But the AFL also has really strict restrictions and gets nervous that that investment advice will end up being a competitive advantage and lead into some sort of salary cap breach. So there's all sorts of minefields there.

But, you know, you're footy players, you got access to disposable income, huge risk tolerance, you know, you're playing a contact sport.

He also told you, brilliant, which is a disaster as a 20 year old, you know what I mean? If a footy player has an opinion on anything, you know, Dustin Martin came out with an opinion on anything, be it science related or otherwise, it would be front page news, you know, which is ridiculous.

And that's not anything to do with Dusty, that's just football players, myself included.

It's influence, right? Influence.

That's right. So, but, but what that trains you up is to. It's easy to get lulled into thinking you know more about the world than you do, of which I was guilty of in that period of my life as well. So there's a whole heap of things going against footy players, being good investors.

And yeah, it's. And there's a heap of people that, trying to, trying to fleece them. So there's some horror stories out there. A lot of them are pretty long residential property, which.

You know, is certainly better than being long unlisted private businesses.

But yeah, I think it's probably a bit of a growth area there.

And how did you think about coming out of the end of your career into the next phase? You know, you're doing a lot of media stuff, you're doing some TV shows, you've got your own podcasts. What was the point for you that you decided to go down that path? Was it a, was it iterative over a long period of time? How did you think about that, yeah.

It was, it was a challenge. Like I knew my career was coming to an end, but it was still pretty abrupt when it happened. And I wanted to be an entrepreneur because the people I admired most in the business world started their own businesses and that's what I wanted to do. And then I did a personality test when I was about 32 or 33 that was really illuminating and really changed my path.

I mean, long story short, it just sort of showed I was a real outlier personality wise, which I had no idea of. And when I tried to discredit the test to my wife explained that, no, that's what, that's what you are.

Just holds up the mirror here.

Yeah, so that was, that was. And then, you know, I thought through it and thought, no, that's, that's right. And that explained a lot of things. It was a shame it took me so long to do the test. But just, you know, highly disagreeable, like right off the spectrum for disagreeability, sort of. I think bottom 3%.

Manners was bottom 5% manners didn't mean saying please and thank you. I forget what it meant.

You know, a whole host of other things, but basically, you know, not really suited to managing large groups of people. You know, it might be right for me, I'd be annoying for them.

But suited to investing. You know, I mean, in my job I meet with CEOs or brokers and being disagreeable is.

A positive in that because they're all trying to tell you they're the next best thing. And if your natural reaction is to assume they're lying, that that will help you over the long term. So it's a strength.

You need to press them.

That's right. So gradually.

You know, I'm wrapped. I didn't start a business.

Certainly an operating business with a lot of people because once you're committed to that, you really need to see it through. So they were the real learnings, understanding yourself a bit better and, and playing to what your strengths are, not what you'd like your strengths to be. And I see so many people doing things that they're not suited to just because they think that's what they should be doing. So that was a, that was a really good learning and I felt I just got it in the nick of time and I've ended up doing something that I'm really both passionate about, but, but suited to doing as well.

So that self awareness piece I think is really important. You know, I get caught in that trap, you know, trying to do something that you think you want to do because other people are doing it or you want to be that person when you really don't give a shit about doing that thing.

You do this every week on the pod. So every week you have an accountability challenge, right? And mine will be like, you know, there's something that's bothering me that I have to do that week. And if we don't do it, we have to put 500 towards a bed and bergs meet up like a bar tab, right. Smash mine every single week. Whether it's like, you know, sealing and painting a bathroom, selling arcade machines have been sitting there for 10 years. I really don't want to sell because all these dickheads will come my house. It's just so annoying. Ben is always the person that he thinks he should be. He's like, read a book or exercise here or do this and he's like, I'm none of those things. I'm just not going to do it. I'm not going to build that habit.

Just like doing business.

Do you remember yours? You did that personality test?

Yeah, I can't probably a separate test to yours, Chris. But yeah, mine was around winning. Winning with others basically. Like I love the idea of like winning collectively and helping others win was really one of my strengths, like bulldozing down anything to make whatever possible but with others. And I think that's why I love business. I love probably the, the opposite of you, Chris. I love, you know, team, like bigger teams and managing and like sort of shipping everyone off. But it's fascinating when you get that real self awareness. You look in the mirror like, oh yeah, yeah.

But also hubris as well. Like you're saying when you're an AFL player, the top of your game, you're in your 20s, you'll you think you can do anything, right. And you're told you can do anything. And I saw that a lot when I was working in health and especially with a lot of the doctors, the surgeons where they're just in their domain. They are just gods and they think that they can just pick that up and put it in another domain and you just see them go right downhill. Yeah, I like the, yeah. Transition for footy players. That's really interesting. Like I saw when I was doing my NBA out at uwa Pav was there Darren Glass, Nat Fife. It's good to see like while I think Nat was still. Yeah, he was still playing just on the kind of tail end and then at least that gives him like a baseline to kind of go to the next thing I'm happy you found your thing, like, you know, pretty much straight away, man. The thing that you like.

Well, no, that took. That took a while.

When did you finish footy? So you started. When did you start your business? When did you finish footy? When did you start Chris Judd Invest? Two years.

Yeah. Chris Judd Invest was a bit longer, but two years to become a private investor, then probably another two years for Chris Judd Invest.

So it's been iterative, but yeah, I think it's going in a pretty good direction now.

And is the media brand more for deal flow for you?

Yeah, basically.

Yeah. Just filling out the network. And by rights, when I started, I should have been working for a fund manager, but I didn't want to. But there would have been some utility in learning those lessons of someone with gray hair or as much hair as mine.

And so it really filled that role. You get access to so many different investors, but also there are different investment styles.

There's not one right way to invest. And, you know, speak to growth managers, value managers, all sorts of different managers, get some learnings from their framework. And then, you know, if I see a fund manager selling stock, it's much easier to ring them up and say, you know, I might want to buy that stock. I'm thinking, what have you seen? Why are you selling it? It just fills out those networks which other fund managers get. So that was. That was the original.

You know, motivations to do it. It's been brilliant for that. I'm really glad I've done it. And, you know, it's still growing and really enjoying it.

Do you have plans to create a fund outside of just managing your own capital?

Yeah, so I'm doing that now. So that's been a big step because.

I think last time we spoke, you were sort of on the fence.

I was, I was.

I mean, there's huge advantages being private. You can be really small, get in and out of positions quicker. You can. Can take on more risk than other people.

But I just felt I was slowly starting to be like the guy surfing into talkie, like looking around at winky pop surf competition and telling people, you know, come in. I go, I could do that if I wanted to.

And, you know, you'd see those people when you're playing professional sport, like, you either can do it or you can't. And.

Yeah, look, I think I'm ready my young. It'll also help with my analyst and the people in my team, giving them the chance to be a part of something bigger.

And I've, you Know, if I were to reflect on the last seven or eight years, a lot of the joy I've got from investing has been managing my folks, superannuation, these sorts of things. And that idea of being able to.

Share the wins while still not running an operating business with 100 employees, still being able to live a life where you're focused on ideas rather than. Rather than people necessarily, it appeals. So, yeah. So March. March is the launch date, if all goes to plan. So heap of compliance stuff going through now, getting licensed and everything else, which is as boring as it sounds, but I feel good about it. So excited to launch into that hopefully next, Next year.

Do you think that comes out of competitive within yourself to. To want that next challenge, to do that next thing, to. To try something you haven't done and win at it?

Yeah, I think I was going to struggle to feel like I was really reaching my potential without this challenge.

And to see, you know, it's one thing to manage the psychology of your own money in the ups and downs, but. But to be able to do that with other people's capital is a challenge that I want to take. So it's going to be. Yeah, look, I think it'd be a good experience, but we'll see. It's going to be a lumpy, fun. Macro's lumpy. It'll be different to a lot of the funds out there, so it won't be suited to everyone. But, you know, as long as I get the right people in and people understand what the journey looks like and I've got records from 14 to be able to show that. My personal account. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

Do you know how big that's going to be in terms of fund size or what are you aiming for?

It'll be small, I think it'll start, you know, I think it'll start somewhere around 20 million, hopefully. You know, I've got some family offices that are interested.

So we'll just. We'll just say it's a lot can happen in markets between now and March. It's. It's weird because I.

I catch myself half barracking for markets to crunch before March because you sort of get that uptick when you start at the bottom. But I'm still invested in markets, so I'm sort of.

You cop it either way, mate.

Well, yeah, I'll try and be positive either way, but, yeah, that's sort of. That's sort of the hope. But we'll start where we're at. If it's smaller Than that, it's smaller than that. If it's bigger, it's bigger. But.

You know, these sort of games, they're infinite games, they go for a long time. That's much about where we start, but where we end up.

Yeah, you win the game by surviving.

Yeah, yeah.

So you've been investing for a while and mate, what are some of those investing lessons where you've gone in, you're kind of investing all of a sudden just whack and you're like, oh, that's how that works. Have you ever had any of those kind of events going in?

Yeah.

Or any. Let's, let's reframe that. Anything that you think the people listening should know about markets or could help them, like lessons that you've learned along the way that were like, oh, this would have been helpful at the start.

Well, I think you need to invest.

In a way that suits your personality. I think that's really important.

I mean, for me, the thing I really zero in is which opportunities mean revert and which ones don't. And the vast majority of things, I mean, they're going to mean revert over time.

You know, hand on my heart, confidently saying, nothing in my portfolio is the next Amazon.

Which means if it has a good run and you can't see what the next milestones are coming up that'll get it rerated is it's time to sell. So I'm not a collector of positions.

I love macro.

Yeah.

You know, I can still remember the first Macro podcast I listened to and it was a life changing moment. And that's how I invest. I know I can put up with more pain.

Than the average investor, both through personality and the way I'm currently set up. So I embrace that and look for those volatile opportunities.

And I think the other thing people, you know, people want to hear other people agree with them on their investment decisions.

100%.

Yeah. And if everyone agrees with you, it's already in the price, you know, and that may make you rest easier. That's the last thing you want to hear as an investor, you know, I know.

Well, I don't know. I assume a lot of people listening to this are bitcoin enthusiasts. And if they are and they hear Warren Buffett say that bitcoin's rat poison squared, they should go, thank God. Because if he's wrong and they're right, that's the next catalyst for growth. Exactly. So, I mean, there's sort of some of the things.

There'S some couple of.

Brain dumps that really Rings true for me as well. When the last thing he said, when everyone's on one side of the boat, that's going to tip and you don't want to be on that side.

No. And that, like, even if the idea is right.

Yeah.

If it's already in the price, you're not getting the appreciation.

Yeah.

In. In your capital. So.

I'm always amazed how you see people on Twitter outraged that someone's got a different view. It's like the market's going to decide anyway. And that's the whole point of investing, is for people to agree with you later, not at the time you're in it.

Exactly. You want that edge, you want some asymmetric upside. And even just talking about managing your psychology and understanding your personality, we've both been through that quite heavily. Crypto man, that teaches you quickly, right. And you get in, you want to make money, you start buying things, you start trading. You quickly realize you are not a trader. It takes a long time to become 1, 2. Turn off all your emotions. And even now, just knowing what I want to invest in and the way I want to and what I want to manage just helps so much because it just cuts out the noise and just focuses me on these things. It's. Yeah, that was the number one for me. Like, what I am not is more important. Like, leave those things alone.

And especially in crypto, a lot of people come in trying to be a trader or trying to, like, quit their job and flip NFTs and they have all these fancy ideas about what they want to be until you go in and you lose money or you get scammed or, you know, you do something like, it's. I think crypto teaches you really quickly, like, what you are and what you aren't. I'm fascinated to know. Chris, how did you get into crypto? Was it. Was it bitcoin that got you in? How did that come about? You know, and. And do you. Are you actively investing in the space at the moment or.

No, I'm not. So I'm an equities guy. But, you know, being a most interested in macro, you'd be crazy to ignore crypto. So post.

What was it? April 2020, when all the COVID crazy was happening? I bought some bitcoin and some eth.

Just because I saw the increases in money supply and.

I thought that was going to blow up the world.

And.

You know, I just view. I really view bitcoin because bitcoin's like a religion. It's hard. I get someone asking me what's bitcoin price gonna do to me? Bitcoin is M2, it's money supply. And when money supply is going up in my head, the price of bitcoin is gonna go up.

And that's how I view gold as well. For that matter, I think that's where the inflation piece pisses people off. And there's a nuance in inflation that they miss. You know, supply side inflation isn't going to cause a rise in bitcoin or gold and if anything it's going to do the opposite because it's going to lead to tighter monetary conditions and low M2 growth. And that's what we've seen. But when M2 was flying, you know, I think the states was up 40% in 18 months post Covid those long duration assets were flying.

That's surprising isn't why people don't connect those together. It's like if there's more cash, people have more cash, they're going to buy more assets. Right.

Well it's also what's measuring. Bitcoin is USD so as money supply increases in a simple world that USD is worth less because there's more of it. So the denominator, you're going to require more of it to measure the same thing. So that's sort of why I view the world. I could see.

A world where Bitcoin really separates itself from the other tokens.

You know, I think what happened to Russia's reserves post the Ukraine war was really significant. And I don't think there's any risk. The US dollar is not going to be reserve currency for a long, long time to come with 87% of the world's transactions. Like if anything I think that gets more dominant. But I think US Treasuries is a reserve asset post what happened to Russia's reserves.

Post the Ukraine invasion. I think that's, you know, I can believe that perhaps the US treasury is not going to be a reserve asset of the world for much longer. And you see the central bank buying of gold recently around the world is going through the roof.

You know, obviously Swiss national banks experimented with the Fang stocks which maybe wasn't the best reserve asset, but it was probably looking like a good idea for a while. But you know.

You could see a world. I'm not saying this is a base case where bitcoin plays a role as a reserve asset in that space, but it's got a fair way to go yet.

But I think particularly eth moving a proof of stake, I think bitcoin Becomes I find bitcoin mining the most interesting part about it. The ability to stabilize the grid, ability to build out excess renewable energy and the role bitcoin mining complain, mopping up that excess electricity and stabilizing the grid. And you know, thermal coal plants or gas plants aren't designed to be turned up and down.

Exactly.

And to put all these intermittent energy sources into a grid and expecting them to do so is having, you know, catastrophic effects. So you could do that through batteries. But lithium ion batteries are really hard to recycle. They're expensive. Vanadium redox flow batteries are better for that and last 30 years and you can recycle them. And XYZ. But I think sort of certainly bitcoin mining could play a real role in that as well.

But it's not without its challenges as well. You know, going forward and what'll happen with the security when mining rewards aren't enough. And xyz.

So it's interesting where it's a bitter of last resort for wasted energy or.

That's right.

And I like that. Solving the grid problem, we're turning up and down. Then you got people with solar panels sending it back to the grid and then you can't match and yeah, just.

That ability to be able to mop up excess energy. And on the three days a year where it's 45 degrees and you know, part of the PPA agreement is you turn off your bitcoin mining on those days and we use the excess energy for what we need it for. I think that's the cleverest part about it, to be honest.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And just turning it to a store of value, have it for another day and you can spend it or give it back to your shareholders. Amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they're doing that in Texas a bit. You know, we're seeing the experiment now in real time. So we'll see.

It's fascinating how well bitcoin's held up, you know, amongst all the chaos. I mean even, you know, we'll talk about FTX soon. But you know, we sat around the 1800-2100 US dollar mark for over 130 days straight. Great. It was less volatile than the NASDAQ and the S P. And after we had the big, you know, kerfuffle with the. In. In England, in. In Europe when they had the. It was a British pound that the President left. They had the, you know, everyone was thrown in the tower. Had the biggest trading volume of the. I think it was the British pound into bitcoin. Ever on a single day around all the, you know, the tax stuff that the, the President was sort of saying. So fascinating. I think bitcoin is still a long way to go like you said. But he's starting to be seen as this hedge against not only just inflation, but it's just a hedge against all the bullshit, to be honest. This asset that you can have that isn't correlated, you know, governments, it isn't owned by anyone, it's not controlled. You're trusting software and code, not people. And you know, for the younger generation, I think we start to get out, we get our head around it a little bit better. But I really do see that as the, the real, I guess the wave that's going to push bitcoin back into a bull market moving forward.

Yeah, I sort of feel like talk about gold because I think about that more. But you know, looking at the 10 year US treasury and when the yield's going up, that's bad for gold generally. But if it goes up enough and you get sort of credit risk, all of a sudden it's good for gold. Do you know what I mean? So a dropping us 10 year yield, good for gold, going up bad, but going up sharply, good for gold. You get sort of two shots at it. And bitcoin's got the potential to have that same.

Same effect. And perhaps we started to see that, you know, in the US 10 year was starting to push well over 4%.

Yeah, Bitcoin started to behave better than it was certainly just in a rising rate environment. You wonder if that's what it was starting to say, 100%.

Are you using. So one of the real use cases I've seen for us in crypto right now is stablecoins. You know, we pay a lot of our employees in stablecoins. We pay a lot of our employees overseas in bitcoin as well. Are you, do you use anything with, you know, stable coins? Are you transacting in them at all?

No, I'm not really in that world. So I've experimented with lots of things. But no, I'm really.

I'm in the FIAT world. I have a small amount of bitcoin on eth and I view it more as, you know, I insure my house.

Yeah.

If my house burns down, that Insurance is a 200x. Yeah. But I hope I don't 200x on the insurance, you know, because I prefer to have the house. That's sort of the way I view the world, which I know is different and would be different to a Lot of people listening to this but no, don't use them. But certainly can see particularly if I was in Venezuela or Sri Lanka or you know, some of those countries, just what a gift particularly USD stablecoins have been but also Bitcoin as well. Absolutely.

So with your macro outlook.

How far do you tend to look out? So are you shorter term or what term do you look at to kind of get the picture in your mind to be like okay, this is where I think things are heading, this is my investment thesis, this is where I'm going to invest. How far out do you tend to look?

Generally about 24 months I reckon. But you can have both, you know you can have some positions where I'm just prepared to look through a huge amount of pain because I think in 15 years time that could do something. But generally.

Yeah, I'm probably thinking 12 to 24 months. Yeah.

Give or. Yeah, it's where sorry the things I'm investing in but I mean the overarching framework I guess you're thinking about as long as you need. I mean I just think it's all about the current debt position in the world.

Yeah.

Is really the starting point for everything for me and working back from there.

And what are your thoughts around that? How do you see things playing out?

So I think there's just as we know a huge amount of debt both at sovereign level and.

On a business level and individual level around the world. And that debt's in USD. So in a simplified term if US dollars going up, not much else can because that debt's going up in real terms even if it's staying the same in nominal terms.

And the only other time we really had this level of debt was Post World War II and we know the playbook to that which you guys will all know well was to introduce yield curve control and repay the debt during inflating it away. And there's not really many options when debt gets to these sorts of levels. You can either stop spending money on entitlements, you can default, you can, you can create some sort of huge productivity innovation, you know, like free energy for all. Just miraculously so those three feel like they're unlikely to happen to me certainly if politicians want to get elected or if you don't have a magician just it's going to pop up out of somewhere. And so the other only real option is to inflate away the debt.

That's it.

So that seems to be. It'll be the playbook but if you do that too quickly, you lose the treasury market and that's really what we've seen. You know, they pump too much stimulus into an economy with tight supply chains and rather than inflating away the debt at 4 or 5% a year, you know, inflation pushed towards double digits and that was quick enough for.

Investors around the world to feel that they were a frog in boiling water instead of just a frog in a bath. And, and the central bankers didn't want them to jump out of the pot. So they're talking tough and.

Have started to get on top of inflation. But I mean with this much debt, deflation's horrendous, that's great Depression and too much inflation in high interest rates on the debt is no good either because people can't afford to pay them. So they're really trying to walk on a tightrope. And I think the ultimate, whether the ultimate endgame is yield curve control, I think we're going to have negative real yields in interest rates for a long time to come. I just don't see there's another option.

So I guess that's really how I'm, how I'm positioned. I think most investors in equity land either have to make a call if they believe the period of last 10 or 15 years where Fang stocks have been dominant is coming back and this is a buy the dip opportunity or if we've seen a change of leadership and low PE stocks and real asset stocks are going to take over that leadership position. I'm in the latter. I think that's what we're going to get. I don't think we're just going to back to what's worked the last, I don't know, 10 to 15 years. But I could be wrong, you know, remain to remain flexible in my views but, but that's how I'm positioned. So there's a lot of commodity stocks in the portfolio currently.

There's, you know, we're doing some work on some financials which we haven't pulled the trigger on yet.

Doing some work on some healthcare stocks which haven't put the trigger on and I guess if I'm not great at short term predictions, you know, we're a bit more longer term than that. But gun to my head, I think, you know, we had a great CPI print for investors overnight when inflation looks like it rolled over and owner's equivalent rent was still up. And we know that's a lagging indicator so it really was a really positive print.

Yeah, inflation's not rolling over because the economy's going well. Yeah, you Know, it's. It's a sign. It's. It's both a sign that the Fed can stimulate sooner if they need to, if inflation gets crunched right down. But it's also a time, also a sign that things are softening. So I think.

Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons we're launching the fund in March is we think we could get a technical rally the end of the year and maybe some softness after that. So that's what we're positioned for, but we're pretty flexible.

Yeah, it's interesting, especially when we talk about the tech stocks. So they're being smashed. They're just down horrendously. And after the gfc, that was kind of the darling that brought us out of that and to see that actually happen again and take us out. I'm in your camp. I don't. I really don't see that happening.

I think so many people keep fighting the last war. It happens all the time.

And even now they look back to, well, look what happened to the oil price.

Post gfc. You know, if you had a runoff leading to that, you had so much capex come on board because China was coming on board. The capex spend on oil has been incredibly low the last 10 years. Become almost illegal for banks to fund these projects.

You know, we've got the spr, which can't be released forever. We've got China in lockdown. Can't happen forever. And, you know, so many people have believed we just don't need oil anymore.

Even though it continues to grow year over year in terms of demand. So.

Yeah, I think that to take a broader view and not just to look at the. The last war and even like we said earlier on around inflation, you know, going back to the 1970s, that was a very different inflation. You know, you had women entering the workforce, you had young demographics.

That was built. You know, there was obviously the oil shock, but it was largely built around demand growing really strongly. This is different to that.

So I think it pays to be able to have a broader view when need be.

Want to take a bit of a shift now and talk crypto.

We're getting to the spice.

We're getting in the spice.

So, Jadi, you're a collective shift member?

Yes, I'm a collective shift member.

Here we go. So you would have seen the news. So, Ben, mate, take away with the spice.

So I think let's. I think it's important to take a step back because talk talking about, like, bear markets, the macro, it is hugely affected crypto, right? And, and this year we've seen so much crisis within the sector. You know, we had, first of all we had Celsius, we had Three Arrows Capital that blew up which then led into celsius. We had blockfi. And now, you know, in the last 24, 48 hours we've got, you know, FTX that's on the verge of bankruptcy.

Chris, want to get your opinion on like, you know, we can go deep in the FTX news but just more broadly like as a, as an investor into the macro and equities and you know, you've got your foot in crypto as well. How do you see what's going on in crypto and how that affects the ability for crypto to ever be like, you know, useful or you know, investable for everyday people with all the crap that's going on in this space. Like this year's been phenomenal, it's just been wild.

I mean we're saying to you on air too, of all the toilets have been uncovered in the crypto rorting. I think SBF has to take the cake. Just absolutely like the effective altruism is just, you know, please, I mean, I mean I know I touched him off air but like he was the king Griffin of crypto anyway. He was front running all, you know, legally rorting all holders in a best case scenario. Now it appears he was doing much worse than that.

So.

Look, I mean.

No one wants to be regulated full stop. Why would you? But there's a reason why banks are regulated because when they're not, they steal from people and.

People in crypto are people. And you know, there's a mix of people and plenty of them will rip people off when they get a chance or they get desperate and feel like they've got no choice. So the centralized exchanges in crypto are screaming out for regulation and need to be regulated as banks because that's what.

They are, they're holding deposits.

That's right. And we've seen they can't be trusted without it. So I mean, that's bleeding the obvious.

You know, I'm sympathetic to the view that defy hasn't broken and.

That never really comes across in, in broad media when, when you hear about what's going on in crypto. I'm also sympathetic to the view is this is how Trade fire would have looked in the GFC if Bernanke didn't bail out his banking buddies.

And we know that's when crypto was born out of, so there would be plenty more busts in the Real world. If.

Wasn'T for the bailouts, it wasn't for the bailouts. And they still continue today. You know, we know of home builders in Australia that were going out of business, but they employ too many people, so they get bailed out. And these things do become reflexive when they start. Just the reflex in the real world gets avoided because those losses get taken on by centralized authorities. And.

I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. You know, certainly when you look at a lot of the things that are happening now.

It'S hard to say what would be worse. To cop the big blood nose early or to live in a world like in Australia where young people just can't afford to buy a house and can't afford to get ahead, you know, unless they've got rich parents or, or play footy, you know, So I don't, I don't know the answer to that.

I do find a lot of the crypto preaching nauseating. And it seems the people that preach the most are the biggest crooks.

And it's going to take a long while, you can see what's going to take a long while for institutions to get comfortable with it because it's just such big risk, not just financially, it's the flow on contagion risk of being a super fund that's been invested in ftt. And now even if the loss was immaterial, your members are going to go, can I trust.

Could you imagine the fallout from that?

Like just everyday people like, you know, nurses, teachers, whatever, and they're super fund. Even though it'll be a small allocation.

That's right.

Then have that, have that news. And how just absolutely crazy this news is to the average person that just doesn't understand crypto. But they've clicked like the high risk category on their super. And they've got that allocation, they've seen it gone down by a little percent.

They're like, oh my God, FTT and Luna and UST. Three projects in the top 10 crypto assets that are about they're going to go to zero. Yeah, that's insane.

And that's the opportunity too, isn't it? You know, like by the time everyone says, I don't think it's going to die, I think it'll change. But if it's not going to die, there's going to come a point where there's an opportunity there.

What I don't like about this space, what I hate is the egos of crypto founders. Like if you look back at Do Kwon, the founder of Luna, and you look back at any of his clips. He was literally calling for people on Twitter to. To come and, you know, come and shut us down. Like, I'm the best. We're the best project. Come and kill me gone. And, you know, SPF the. I think for him, the ego around Alameda Research, his holding company, which seems to have. Would have gone bust with the 3ac event, bailed himself out with FTX client funds to prop it up and didn't tell anyone. And if you look back on Twitter, it was like covering it up. And now that's going tits up as well, because you can't take the L. And now look what happens that you. You've lost 10 to 15 billion dollars worth of client funds, there's an 8 billion dollars hole in your balance sheet, you've lost 2 billion dollars worth of outside capital invested, and now you're fucked again.

Yeah, I look at this and it's. We talk about bitcoiners and it's like the trinity of freedom. Autism, hoodie. Like, that's like the quintessential bitcoin. And you look at these guys and they're in their 20s, early 30s. They're obviously a bit out there because they're in crypto. They're trying to create companies. All of a sudden they become billionaires and they just become more nuclear, like in those, like, crazy parts of their personalities. And didn't you even say, like, do. Kwon was on talking recently like, he.

Was on the show, wasn't he?

Yeah, he's on Kobe.

Oh, my God.

The guy that's lost 60 billion is commenting on the guy that's just like 14 billion. It's only in crypto.

But I was. Yeah. You know what put me off it? I went to Permissionless.

Yeah.

With my analyst. We wanted to learn and we went there. It was a good conference. But I'll take a step back. So I was. When I was 24, I. I'd just captain or 23. I just captained a premiership. I'd won a brownload one of Norman Smith, won a couple of BNFs. And, you know, I thought my. Didn't stink.

Top of the world.

And I remember doing an interview like a Q and A for Medibank. Private people would have been riveted with what I say. Like, what were we going to work on? It was like, I was going to work on four. Flossing my teeth. This I take. Not flossing my teeth and drinking more water. It's like, Anyway, fast forward 12 months and my, my groins. I got a issues with my adductor that were so bad that they'd pulled some of the pelvic bone off. They'd gotten so dysfunctional. And I sort of met with a biomechanist and gradually learned that I wasn't running correctly at all, not walking correctly. I couldn't even sit in a chair properly. And it was only eight months earlier. I was going so well, the only things I could work on were like, dental hygiene and a bit more water. And I went to Permissionless and I listened to everyone up on stage and there's some good presenters and you were there, weren't you? Yeah, yeah, some good presenters. But it reminded me of me at 23, you know, like, they've had a good run, they've made some good money. I mean, the crypto guys made wildly more money than I had, but there's just a bit of bullshit about how they're going to, you know, they're going to take down the bond market. Like, bitcoin was taking on gold. But eth. We're going to take down the bond market. I mean, for starters, the bond market exists so governments can fund what they need to fund. Like, they're just different things. Just because something's got a yield, it doesn't mean it's a replacement for the bond market.

And it just sort of reeked of young kids that have had success, be told how fantastic you are and been in a bit of an echo chamber. And it just, it actually put me off a bit. The space and thought equities was, was a better fit. It doesn't mean there's no future or it's all doom and gloom or it's terrible. But it just maybe means just things maybe got ahead of themselves and.

Oh, it's definitely very immature.

Yeah.

And you just see these people, I'm like, how are you going to do that? Like, do you understand how the real world works? How regulation, how much time, things? Like, they're like, no, but it's just more efficient. We'll just trade shares like this. You don't have to do T +2 anymore. You're like, well, there's a reason. Can you imagine the infrastructure that you have to do? Plus you want to run it on a blockchain and you want to do like, no, you don't need all of that stuff.

Yeah, that echo chamber rings a bell. Like, we live in an echo chamber in crypto. We think the world revolves around us. We think the Halving is everything. We think NFTs are the, you know, everything. And I fundamentally believe it's going to change the world. But most people don't give a shit about what we're talking about and what's going on in this space. You know, it's just a, it's a, it's an ego thing. Everyone's trying to build the biggest company, raise the most money, build the best world's first whatever and you're not seeing.

A heap of things, things that are impacting, you know, I'd say as a non crypto native, I'm not seeing a lot of crypto things that are impacting my day to day lives. Venezuela. Yep. Stable coins. Get it. You know, I can see a world, let's say if you had yield curve control, which is to me is a possibility down the track.

What would come with that would be capital controls. You would imagine, you know, that's what happened Post World War II, when you had yield curve control in that sort of world. Could I see a need for Monero and zcash? Sure, you know, potentially. So I could see some functional reason why you would need those products. But at this stage the rest of them are still a work in progress. I'm not a video gamer, but the video games aren't up to in terms of fun. They're not there yet and nor should they be if it takes five to 10 years to build a good game. And they started in 17 and they were underfunded at the time. You know, realistically it's probably 2025, 2026.

Yeah, exactly.

Where's the first chance you're going to see a blockchain video game that's actually really fun to play? But we wait and see. We still got to see it. But until those products come, it's a leap of faith. But there are a heap of smart people in the industry, they're well capitalized now, they're working hard. It's hard to back against those dynamics on a long enough time frame. Yeah, but you just need to get your time frame right. I think.

Exactly, yeah. Short term is not much chop. Like a lot of people are in there, they're raising a lot of capital.

A lot of the stuff I've seen being built is not that great. And even for the, the time that we are. But you're right, if you maintain that capital, you, you know, you actually have working capital. You don't keep it in bloody eth. We saw this like quite a lot, especially around like 2017. So someone will have an ICO, they'll raise all this money, they'll have it in ETH. Oh, great. Let's go on about our days. You know, a couple of months later it goes down by 80%. Got no working capital. I can't pay for people if they're, if they're good at just fundamentally running businesses and you have a long enough time frame and give you that, you know, five year buffer to actually build something great. That's what we're going to see. The really good products that people will actually use and not even know they're using. Crypto or a blockchain.

Yeah, I mean, I think it gets compared to the Internet a lot. You know, we've all seen that graph of user adoption of the Internet and then user adoption of crypto and we're 1997 or.

Yeah.

But you know, you think of the early Internet like email was a product people were using even then, even when it was.

There were still some products, early doors. You could say, well, this helps my life. Yeah, even before you had the slick, you know, you know, Facebook and YouTube and, and whatever. So I guess that's sort of what I'm on the lookout for. I'll be interested to see what comes in.

The best use case I've seen more recently is the Starbucks and Reddit. So Starbucks have a new loyalty program and Reddit has the new advertising characters and they're both actually NFTs, but do not mention NFTs. Yeah, so it's back to this idea of like, you know, we don't talk about www.we talk about Facebook, we talk about Amazon, we talk about the products and experiences that they, we have, not the technology behind it. And I think that's going to be the game changer for us to build actual products that people actually want to use and need to use. No one gives a shit about what's the technology behind it.

Those things that only blockchain can enable.

Yeah, yeah. The other one was Mind blinking?

The Metaverse, Chris. I just got back from Dubai, spent six weeks in Dubai and first of all, Dubai is crazy. But they are going all in on the metaverse. So they're building not necessarily the hardware, but the, the software, the digital metaverse. They're trying to replicate what Dubai is in the real world as a, as a real world business hub in the Metaverse. So you can, you can buy a storefront, you can be registered in there, you can get your visas, you can like build store for it, you can do all these things in the Metaverse. You throw on your goggles and you walk around and interact. Fascinating to know. Have you, have you done VR? Have you done any Metaverse stuff? Any thoughts?

Yeah. So really interested in it.

Not a gamer by background, but I've seen the VS headsets and put them on.

Thought a lot about the Metaverse. I mean, I think we're already in it. You know, I think Twitter or Instagram is the metaverse already Iteration one. You know, I know of people who will buy a Louis Vuitton bag so they can show it on their Instagram page and not because they necessarily want it in the real world. And I know a lot of people who just cultivate a life online very different to their actual life.

Digital, fast and in a lot of.

Ways it's more important to them. So I think in some sense it's already here. I'm sympathetic to the view that the metaverses, what's the plural for a metaverse? Metaverse.

They're dictatorships. You know, I like the web3 analogy where, you know, the, the digital warlords own everything, including a username. They don't share any of the revenue with their users.

It would be nice if web3 could change that. I think the piece that web3's probably missed up to this stage, whilst they've got incentive structure, right. In terms of tokens, they've got no AI capability and that's the Web2 component that's just so strong that people probably don't realize and that's going to take a long life, long way for them to catch up to Web two, let alone supersede Web two. And we wait to see if they can do that.

But yeah, look, I think, you know, the digital lives of people is becoming more and more important and I think it'll probably continue. I think it is a one way trend. It doesn't mean that meta is a good investment or whatever.

Yeah, but I think, you know, I see my daughter on Roblox every night for half an hour and she's screaming at her friends and.

They'Re going on, you know, digital adventures. And I suspect that's gonna, it's gonna be a long term secular trend.

Yeah, definitely. Digital's becoming more. And you're right, we are in the metaverse already. Like this is an extension of your brain. You're on the screen all the time, completely. You're on, you're on different apps and then all that's gonna happen is that is gonna change to something else. It'll be VR, it'll be neuralink, straight into your head, it'll be something else. The phone will just disappear and you'll just bend into your head. Like, we love digital stuff. We love going hype, we love efficiency, we love connecting with people. And these are all things that digital technologies enable. Yeah. It's not slowing down anytime soon in.

The augmented reality I'm looking forward to. Like when you're mixing the virtual in the real world, you know, maybe you can walk down the street and you can see a store that's not actually there in the real world, but it's virtual and you can try things on and actually buy the Louis Vuitton bag. Right. And then maybe it gets delivered to you or whatever and that'd be cool.

Yeah.

Even. Even if you have screens anymore for your computer or if you just have your glasses on and you'll have six screens. Yeah. You know, I can see that world coming.

Yeah.

I would prefer it wasn't, but it is. No one cares. No one cares what I think.

Yeah.

I think it's going to come whether we like it or not. And, you know, AI, robotics, all those things. It doesn't mean that's where I want to invest in the near term, but I think as a secular trend, that's coming regardless.

Even I went to a mining company and we were looking at some of their technology and they had augmented reality where they've got their entire plant just on the table and you can zoom right in. The engineers can come in and they can just even look behind walls and see all the cabling. They can get trained up before they actually go to site, which is somewhere off the coast in wa. It takes them forever to get there and they're already skilled up and then they just do it for real. It's incredible tech.

Yeah. You know, when you do those things to log into a site and you've got to click on the stop sign or click on their bike or whatever, and then that's training. Autonomous vehicles.

Yeah.

I mean, that's. You could see a world where people are playing video games.

Let'S say playing a video game. Mining. Digging something out of the ground. And that is actually digging out copper in East Africa. You know, I know it's not around the corner, but one day I could see this sort of blending between the digital world and real world activities being done by robotics where they're. I mean, that's what we saw with a lot of, you know, defy kingdoms. I mean, that's just a.

You know, automated market making. You're doing sort of activities that hedge Funds would do. It's just got a game sleeve, game skin over the top of it. It's sort of the first iteration of that. You could see that becoming more sophisticated. And I could see a world where people think they're playing a video game, but they're really doing back office function for a bank or, or something like that down the track.

Yeah, this is like there was a meme where it's like they ban children from, you know, going into the coal mines in like the early 1900s and now all the kids are playing Minecraft. Like the children yearn for the mines.

And you're right as well. That's one of my favorite things. So, you know the captures where you click the stop signs. So Tesla had a huge problem where they're training their autonomous vehicles. Right. Okay. You got all these stop signs, but they don't all look the same. What if you've got a tree over it, you've got occlusion, or it's an old stop sign and it's round. How do you get that data? So they use their own cars to capture that. So you get really noisy data. Like maybe 1 out of 10 pictures is actually a stop sign and then you give it to humans to actually train it and click on the stop signs. How crazy is that? And then the algorithm gets better and your car drives better.

Yeah, I mean, that's when I think blockchain gaming works. Either when it's providing a real world value and utility potentially without the gamer realizing it, and then you can get paid for that and it makes sense, or when the game's just so much fun and you're prepared to spend money flexing, you know, which you would be if you were playing Fortnite or a game like that. Currently, until those two, one of those two things occurs, I don't know that blockchain gaming be sustainable, but in a crypto sense, that's probably the area I'm most interested in. I think eventually there will be a blockchain. Well, I think there'll eventually be a video game that's, you know, got a GDP comparable to a small country, or it's just going to be enormous. Whether or not that's on the blockchain or not, we'll wait and see. But I'm sort of. I feel like I'm keeping my eye out for that because I don't want to miss it. And you're not going to have to be that early either. I think it'll be so big, you're not going to have to be a seed investor in it. But I sort of, I just want to keep an eye on that space because eventually I just think there's going to be something massive in that space.

Shameless plug. I think that's what we're really trying to do, a collective shift, you know, is help busy people stay ahead of the trends and see what's going on in the investment space. Chris, we've got now two famous AFL players, you and Suli as members.

Right man, Suli.

A very shameless plug. But how do you use collective. Just more of a, you know, personal question. How do you use collective shift as you know you're using it to more on the investment side, education side, staying out with what's going on really just.

To not miss something major. So I mean I spend in terms of priorities in my reading. I read macroeconomic stuff, macroeconomic newsletters and information is sort of the most important thing for me. Then it's bottom up equities and then it's things like collective shift or sort of alternative asset info so that I don't miss something big in a different asset class that's going to impact what I'm doing on a day to day basis.

That's what we're trying to do.

Absolutely, man.

Cool.

Do you have anything else you want to add?

Oh yeah, I want to go personal growth question. You're not getting off the hook, lad.

So we had a question from Matt, our head researcher and he said he watched an interview of yours a while ago and you're saying in your early career when you're at the Eagles, you were training really, really hard.

And it caused a lot of stress on your body as well. But it also made you an elite player. And I wondered if you've even looked, if you've looked back on that and thought about it like was that the right thing to do, the cost was too high. Would you have done it differently now that you're older and a bit wiser? Do you ever look back on those times?

I've thought about it a bit. I guess essentially I worked out early on that people are largely predictable. They'll generally respond in a pretty predictable manner, certainly on, on average.

And so you know what that looks like in football is. You know, they don't want to train on Christmas day.

They don't train if they're hungover. If they've had a big training week and there's a rest day on Saturday, they'll generally take it.

X, Y, Z. They're basically people want to be comfortable by Default and even athletes at a different level to a. Setting your adult, but still. And so I felt it was predictable to work out how other players would react. And I basically worked out if I could do things that other players wouldn't want to do and those things were efficacious for performance, I'd improve at a quicker rate. And I really just scaled up that idea and just trained like a crazy model. And it worked. You know, it worked until it didn't. You know, so it didn't work. I eventually broke down early on. It was about 23.

You know, post the flossing.

Yeah.

But I don't know if I'd change it. You know, my objective in footy wasn't to just try and have the longest career possible and try and milk playing footy till I was 35 or 36. It was to have. Be part of Premiership success and. And we were lucky enough to do that at West Coast.

So if I had my time over, I would have been more sophisticated about it. You know, the other component to that as an athlete is it's not just doing more of what's better, it's doing it more effectively.

Yeah.

And that was a component I missed. But I was, you know.

A bloke from the age of 18 to 24 is one of the most stupid animals on earth.

He's just coming out of it. And so I was willing, truly, in that. That phase of life, so I wouldn't change it. But it was an error. Yeah, put it that way.

All right. Do you still find that in your life now? You're. I assume you're a competitive guy and do you kind of look at. If you want to be successful in an area, what are other people doing and what do I need to do?

Completely. Yeah, completely. So that's why I don't want to invest how the funds invest, because they've got a whole heap of rules that become jails after. Become a jail after a while, and it's easy to predict what those rules are. So.

I've been a beneficiary of that as a private investor. I think I can do that as a small investor managing other people's money. Just so long as I don't take on, you know, super fund money or other money that's got some ideological views attached to the investment.

Yeah. Fantastic. Absolutely. Do you? All right, we've got Ben over here. He's 24 years old. Right. Look at him. What a rough head.

Still got a good head of hair.

Enjoy, Joel.

So he's 24 years old, owns a crypto company, just raised some capital for his business. Is there any advice you think you could give to Ben or any things to kind of look out for as a guy who's also ultra competitive? Like geez, we're in bowling yesterday mate and we're just having like a leisurely game and he's like Michael Jordan like, you know, you watch that documentary and he's. Everything's a competition. Absolutely every single thing. Is there any advice you think of that you would, you would give to Ben because he goes pretty hard all the time. That's all right.

He's young, not on the track. We discussed his pre show, not on the grass.

Now people ask me what advice would I give to my 21 year old self like semi regularly and I think Nothing because the 21 year old self wouldn't have listened to it anyway.

Yeah, that's it.

Bothered but no. My main, I did great 20s. So much fun. My main thing would have been to just enjoy the wins. That's probably what I didn't do. When you are really competitive and really focused it's so easy to just get into the trap of what's coming next and that's. You need that. But just to balance it up with enjoying the wins when they, when they come. That'd be my, my parting message. But I do steer clear of too much life advice.

Yeah, that's. You're horrible at that.

I'm always an extra guy.

I'm all that as well. We're just like great. What's the next thing?

Yeah.

And you just keep going, raise capital.

You launch that product, you're that customer. It's just like next. Yeah.

Even the team I was in before with when I was working out in health, they were just all like type A people just going for it constantly and you did the thing. Great. What's the next thing straight away? Never kick back and celebrate. You still rubbish at it, mate. I can't help you with it. I'm rubbish too.

Both are cool. Chris, where can our listeners find you? Maybe some of the media stuff you're going on and even your fund. I'm not sure if you've got a.

No, it's a bit early fun but. Chris Judd Invest, you can find any of the media content I produce. So that'll be. That's on YouTube at Chris Judd Invest. Or it's also being played on Ticker News which is a news platform nightly at 6:30pm so people can check it out there.

Awesome. Cool. Anything from you?

No. Oh, that was fantastic. Thanks so much.

Yeah, thanks, guys. It was great.

See you soon.