49. How To Bail Out of a 9-5 Job & Build A Podcast to 250k Downloads In Less Than A Year With Edwina Stott

I turned 30 and I was like, do you know what? Like, there's gotta be more. And I thought, like, I've always been interested in self improvement and self help, but like, none of the woo woo stuff, the stuff that's genuinely blacked by research and actually helps. So I thought, you know what? I'm just gonna start my own podcast and see where it goes. And now I started in June last year and it's pushing quarter of a million downloads and it's just gone nuts. And it's, it's awesome. Like, Apple picked it as the one of their top four podcasts for last year.

What do you think are the top reasons why your podcast has succeeded so much? Because that's massive growth, right? Like quarter million downloads in less than a year. Top four podcasts out there. Like, that's massive. Welcome back to another episode of the Benneberg Show. We've taken a little bit of a break. I've been on holiday for a week, so excuse me if my hosting skills are a little bit subpar today. But we've got an amazing guest joining us. Edwina, the host of that's Helpful and also a journalist. Ed and I also co host another crypto podcast called Decoding Crypto. You know, Bergs, I don't want to make you upset, man, but I mean, Ed's, Ed's a pretty good co host. I'm not gonna lie, mate.

We, we started a podcast within two weeks. You're already cheating on me. You're like, nah, let's go find a professional, better looking, better looking host, whatever. Just throw me by the wayside, mate.

I, I, I, I, I started doing podcasts with Ed. I'm like, oh, geez, this is so much easier. Ed knows what she's doing.

How, how is Ben to work with? Because with me, he barrels in, he's late, he doesn't know what's going on. I have to prep everything. Is that about right?

Pretty similar. I'm not good.

Common denominator, mate.

Undoubtedly. We should start a support group.

I think so we'll do it at the publisher.

There was a moment a couple of months ago I had to sit down and go, okay. And I do apologize. I'm pretty sure I'm late to every single podcast. I'm like, I don't have my stuff. I need to get my together. So I feel as I, I was better until yesterday. My first day back and I didn't have my stuff. It was locked in storage. So I apologize to everyone that I'm.

Co host with he's an animal, Burg. He's an animal. I don't know how you do it.

Ed, do you want to maybe introduce yourself, give us a bit of a background on, you know, your journalism, how you study, your podcast, where you currently at. Obviously, you don't sound Australian, so maybe you can maybe give a bit of a background on, like, hey, got here.

Yeah, yeah. So exciting. I've been a journalist for, what, like, 15 years? I started when I, like, I started getting into the BBC when I was 13. I just wrote around because I knew I wanted to be a journalist. I, like, in Manchester, it's very different. Like, I'm in Brisbane now, so it's a completely different ball game. But I started when I was 13. I was just, like, obsessed with that. I knew I wanted to be a journalist. I was one of those kids who always knew what they wanted to do. Which, like, looking back now I'm like, why did I pick journalism anyway? I love it, which is lucky. But I wrote into all the local places where I thought that I might be able to get work experience. So I wrote into, like, itv, big television network in the uk, the BBC, like, audio production houses. And I got into itv. They showed me around. I remember, like, probably now they would have been like, 25, the people who showed me around. But, like, they just seem so old and professional. I was like, wow, this is the. And then I got into the BBC on work experience. I went there from work experience, and I was like, right, I'm just not gonna let them let me leave. So I just woke my butt off. Like, never took any breaks. Like, worked really hard. Like, made everyone's bruise, you know, just absolutely shifted. Cleaned up the kitchen, like, went out and did vox pops. I, like, box pops is hard work, but it's such a good thing to do as a teenager. So, like, really built my confidence. Like, started practicing reading bulletins. Like, not on air, but with, like, take the scripts home, read bulletin. Was just obsessed with it. And, like, genuinely, they weren't paying me, but I was still so keen to do it. And that's how I knew I was doing the right thing. And then when I got to, like, how old would I been? Probably 15, they said to me, 16, sorry. They. I just got my driver's license. And they said, okay, do you want to start driving the radio car? And, like, now that's so old school. Like, nobody has a radio car because we just dial in from our mobile phones. But it was like this massive bus that we had to drive around and Then you put up the antenna and you'd have to, like, be really careful because you'd have to look around for all the, you know, telephone wires or, like, electricity cables. Like, it was genuinely very dangerous. So you drive around, you put the telephone mask, like, I do all of that and then I go and produce stuff and be a runner. So, like, just got in doing that and then started working for BBC Radio Manchester as a producer and as a journalist, and then, like, managed to weave all my way into Radio 4 and 5 live and independent production companies. And that was when I got a taste for, like, making radio documentaries, which back then there was a lot more money in it. Then in 20, what would have been 2012, we moved to Australia. Um, I started working for the BBC, for the ABC over here, for ABC Radio Brisbane, like, local radio. Worked my way up and then started knocking about, like, Radio Nationals on, like, the next floor above. So I'd always go and, like, hang around and I, I got a gig producing for local radio, but I was sat next to Radio national and one of the guys, though, he's a presenter, Anthony Fennell, he came up to me, he was like, oh, we have really interesting conversations. Maybe you want to make a radio documentary for us? And I was like, the heck I do. So I started making radio documentaries for him and he is, like the best mentor, the best guy that you would ever want to come across. Like, you know, we talk about champions and proper mentors. He is absolutely that guy for me, you know, completely just, like, so keen, like, would just bend down and let you stand on his shoulders. Was like, come on, I'll show you everything I know. So I started making radio documentaries and I'd make a few for him and then pretty much produced every show on Radio National. And then I got into. I moved back to the UK in 2018, produced for 5 Live and Radio 4, which was an absolute dream. Working for their business unit, like, just the pinnacle. Like, if you want to be in journalism, if you want to be in radio journalism, like, that is absolutely where to work. Super high standards. It's kind of like being in the military when you leave, like, you. You just can't accept any less than that. And so then work radio 4 or 5 live, came back here and then got back into RN and got onto this. It's called a story mentorship program for Transom in the us and they are a. An audio production company that. An audio production not for profit, that Champion and public radio. So like npr, BBC, abc, anywhere that doesn't make A profit. And like, was working with Ira Glass, you know, from this American Life, and Rob Rosenthal, who's a huge, huge champion.

Marine Marisol Mirage, who's the presenter of Code Switch on npr. It's like the greats. And I was like, holy, this is it. Like, learning how to make radio documentaries from the best. And that kind of really changed how I approached it because I hadn't really had any formal training in radio documentaries before doing that. And like, the stuff I learned there was absolute, absolutely incredible. And kind of took that back. And then I've made like multiple series for radio national, for independent podcast producers and, you know, like continuously pitch ideas. But the thing is there's just no money in it. You know, like, you can't. I would get pitched, I would commit, get stuff commissioned. Like, you just can't make a good salary considering the skills that you have. It's outrageous. Like, if this was another trade, you would be making so much more money.

So it got to last year, I turned 30 and I was like, do you know what? Like, there's gotta be more. And I thought if I could, like, I've always been interested in self improvement and self help, but, like, none of the woo woo stuff, the stuff that's genuinely blacked by research and actually helps. So I thought, you know what, it. I'm just gonna start my own podcast and see where it goes. And now I started in June last year and it's pushing quarter of a million downloads and it's just gone nuts. And it's, it's awesome. Like, Apple picked it as the one of their top four podcasts for last year for Australia and New Zealand. And it's just like, very validating when you've only ever made content for different organizations. And then you go out and you think, I can do this myself. And you actually think, oh, no, I can actually do this myself. I wasn't dreaming. So, yeah, long story short, that's how I got here. But a lot of radio, a lot of podcasting, that's pretty much it.

That's incredible. Quarter of a million downloads. So, yeah, so she would have started the same time as us, Ben. And we have nowhere near that amount of downloads. Mate, pull your socks up, Ben. You've got one of the greats over here. You should be asking it every day, what do we need to do? But instead you're on holidays in Thailand, mate.

Dead way, dead way, I'm telling you.

Yeah, that's it. I need to cut him away. Get someone professional.

Elementary, mate, elementary. So, Ed, talk To me, like, how. How was it starting your own podcast? Like, you know, for. For those that may be thinking about saying the podcast, she's maybe just Burkes, and I give some tips. Starting at your own podcast, what do you think are the top reasons why your podcast has succeeded so much? Because that's. That's massive growth, right? Like, quarter million downloads in less than a year. Top four podcasts, Apple. Like, that's massive. What are the sort of key, you know, reasons do you think you've been able to, you know, get so much success so quickly?

Honestly, I can guess, but I don't know. It's. If I came on here and I was like, you know what? I'm the master. Here's. Here's what you got to do. Here's the recipe, I would be absolutely bullshitting you guys, but I'm not gonna do that to you because I'm a nice girl. What I would say is, number one, authenticity. Like, just be yourself. Like, the. That's kind of. It's top. It's intoxicating, right? Like, you know, when you meet somebody, if they're trying to you or if they're trying to be your friend because they want your connections, or, like, they. They only call you when there's nobody else to hang around. Like, I feel like it's kind of similar in podcasting, right? In radio, we always used to say that the microphone is a serum of truth. Like, as soon as you put somebody in a microphone in front of a microphone, you can genuinely tell who they are. And often, like, people who you think would work on the radio don't work because they have this air of, like, either superiority or they think their audience are idiots or they, like, are just insincere in trying to be somebody they're not. So I think, like, the number one thing for me is that I really, genuinely care about the people I'm talking to. Like, I actually want to help them. And that's why I wanted to start the podcast. Because, like, one thing I just love is if someone's having a day or someone's having a bad time. Like, I just love either coming up with solution or just making them feel better and want to be the person who G's them up. And I feel like. Com. That's why the podcast has worked so well, because it combines two things that I really love, like being kind to people and helping people. And audio is, like, my two favorite things. And it sounds sickly sweet and so. But genuinely, that's the truth. And I think that Kind of authenticity. Like, people are kind of drawn to, and people want to work with you. And the other thing is, like, I haven't rushed to commercialize it. Like, I haven't rushed to monetize it because.

I really believe in it. So I feel like if I, like, I am gonna go out and try and commercialize it 100 and I'm in the process of doing that now, but I feel like if I was to do that now, like, fine, like, I'd make a little bit of money, but I just genuinely believe in what I'm creating. So I know that in the future I'm going to have an amazing product to sell. So I'm not, like, in a crazy rush. And so I think, like, I don't have huge ads. Like, I'm not particularly aligned with anybody else. So I think people get that message that I just genuinely want to help. And I really enjoy that. And also, it's fun, like, if you're doing something that you really enjoy and it's super sustainable for you, I think that that's also really. Then it's so easy to put out a podcast a week if you love doing it. It's super easy to put out the social media content and, like, continually look for ideas if you really like what you're doing. And I think that really helps. I don't know whether I answered your question, and I think the takeaway is that I have no idea why it's gone so well.

How do. How do you go about selecting your guests? Because you're right where the microphone is the serum of truth, where you see a lot of these people that put out books or their actors, they do something amazing, and then you see them on interviews and they're just absolutely people with really ideas. You're like, this is the whole never meet your heroes thing, so be wary of that. How do you kind of go about selecting these really awesome guests?

I'm really careful in that I select people who I would genuinely be interested in. Or, you know what I think is a really good test is if you read something about someone or you read an article or you read a book, or do you then go and tell other people about that? Like, are you like, oh, I heard this really cool thing? Or, man, you should read this book? Or I, I heard this really interesting person talking the other day, and you should hear about this. Like, generally, that's a really good test for me. If you want to talk to other people about it, it's interesting. If you don't want to talk to other people about it and you didn't even spend another second thinking about it, then it's not one for you. And the other thing that I tend to really avoid is guests who are pushed by PR people. I know that's really unpopular, but I just think, like, if you're that interesting, why are people not coming to you? Like, I, I get PR 100% and genuinely, sometimes they're really good guests. But I also think, like, I want people who are kind of hard to get and are really interesting rather than anybody who's like, I could get really easy. So that's another thing that I often think about when I'm getting guests. Definitely, like, am I interested to tell other people about it? That's 100 it. And, and sometimes I judge it wrong. Like, sometimes I get people on and I think they're going to be really interesting. And I don't put those episodes out. Like, I have a whole heap of episodes that I don't even put out. Like, I maybe have six episodes that I've never put out. And that, like, that's, I, I've spent good time on that. Like, I've, I've emailed them, I've locked them in, I've spent an hour talking to them. And I just don't want to disrespect my audience like that and waste my time because it takes so hard to grow an audience and get a listener to put something crap out and then lose listeners. It's just not valuable to me. And I also don't want to waste people's time and it's embarrassing. Right? Like, if you put something out and it's going to sit up there for a week, then you've got to promote it and you've got to push it out and you know, it's not your best work. I don't want to put myself through that, let alone like kid you into listening to it. Like, unless I think it's genuinely brilliant, it's not going on my podcast.

Yeah, I, I love this just around quality control. And yeah, you putting in the effort, putting in all the pre work, getting with the person recording the episode and then not putting it out. That's a really hard thing to do and a hard decision to make. And how do you actually have that conversation with the guest? Because essentially the message is this just wasn't good enough to put out. Like, these are all my goats. Because that's a really difficult thing.

Generally they don't give a. Because these are generally big people and they don't even check if the episode has gone out. Like, I rarely have anybody email me and say, hey, what? Why did you not put that episode out? Like, that's. I think one person has done that.

And so generally, you don't really have to have the conversation because the. The people. And. And sometimes, you know, those people, if the episode's not that great, it's sometimes because the guest hasn't put much effort in and they don't really care, and they're not really present. They don't want to be there. So if they have come into your show with that attitude, then they don't really care if you put it out or not, you know?

Yeah, that's it. They're just ticking a box. It's like their manager said they had.

To do it 100% right? And, you know, because it is, like, I've had great success, but in real reality, it is still a smaller podcast. So people aren't coming in to talk to me, to look for exposure at a massive level. So it's not like they've recorded an interview with this American Life and this American Life don't put it out. It's just a little me sat here. So generally people don't check. And then, you know, like. But I just. I don't want to disrespect my audience like that. Like, it's. If somebody sat down, like, and you know how it is. Like, if you sit down to watch something or listen to something and it's crap, well, then you never go back again. Like, I think that's. I would think that's a crap podcast. That's a crap TV show. Like, to get me to go back and listen to something that I've discounted as being average, it would take a lot. Whereas if you've already got somebody there and then all you have to do is give them a really great episode and like, it's. It's just an easier option to me. And I don't want to be embarrassed. I want people to think that my podcast is great and I genuinely want to help people. Like, every episode for me is an opportunity to help someone. And if I have an interview that I think isn't going to do that well, then one, why would I waste that opportunity that I have to put something out that I genuinely believe in?

Your whole mentality is so much different, I think, to mine. And. And it's. And it comes from a place of, like, your standard of quality of content is super high. And I think that's why you're Getting so such great results. And I don't see it on your personal podcast, but on Decaying Crypto, you know, like your, your attention to detail, whether it's the microphone, the camera, the setup, the, the guests or the guests will come on and they're not prepared. And you know, we'll go through this process, like, we're not starting this podcast and you guys get your shit sorted basically. Because, like, we're not, you know, but like, if it was me, I'd be like, oh, you know, whatever, let's just, you know, go for it. But I think that's, that is really the difference. And from an audio only experience, like the, that is the thing, right? An audio documentary, you don't have any visuals. It's got to be like pristine in the ears, right? Otherwise it's going to be, you're not going to listen to it.

In some ways though, I think that's so much more powerful. Like, I cannot count the number of times that people have said to me, oh, like, clearly you great at radio, so when are you going to go into tv? And it's like, no, you're missing the point. Like this to me is so much more personal. Like the fact that you have headphones that in your ears, like you're actually in somebody's head, they're creating the pictures, you know, like, you know, in your head, like if you've ever listened to something and you've imagined how somebody looks like, and then if you've looked them up and you've gone, oh, that's not how I thought you look. Like how powerful your mind can be in creating those pictures for you. And I think that is a really real gift of radio. And I think you can be so creative. Like a lot of TV producers I know get super frustrated because they're so constrained by what they can create and how to make things interesting. Whereas in radio, you can really take people on an audio journey, like with no money, no, you know, no.

Resources, like you can really do some incredible things like that. What I've built, what really blows my mind about the podcast is that I have created something that is entirely monetizable and is a brand new business that can legitimately make money from a microphone. And what's in my head, like, that is wild to me that you can make money that way, right? That's crazy. And I think that is so cool. And that's what people don't get when they prioritize like film or TV over radio and audio. Because I think audio is so Such a powerful medium. So powerful.

Absolutely. And it's, it's really accessible as well. Like, you don't. You can do it on your phone. It doesn't need to be high bandwidth when people are consuming it. It's. And you're right about that personal experience in people's ears and especially when you get high quality audio. So a couple of things I've been listening to recently is.

On Headspace, so that mindfulness app and listening to Sleep Sleep Cast, where they get professional voice actors in and you hear Rain on a Tin Roof and they'll be talking through. And like, what you said about using your brain to create that imagery is just incredible. And another example would be Tim Ferriss's little fiction stories that he's released as audio. And it is one of the most high quality things I've ever seen. Maybe 10 minute episodes. And you're just like, oh my God, these, these voices. It's just like, it's such high quality and just like a fire crackling to the side. And then it's like reading a book, but being read a book by someone amazing and then having those little sound effects just to create that imagery in your head, it's a really special experience. And you said, you said just with your brain and your microphone. So what kind of setup do you use for your podcasting?

This is it. Like, I literally have a, I have a Shure MV7 Mike, which is excellent, by the way. I have a little mic arm, so it's like I'm really hot on like how it's positioned. So I get the sound right and then I edit on Adobe Audition. So like, to put it out cost me nothing. Like, I. The hosting fee on Libsyn and a Canva membership. Like, that's, that's literally it. I think the other thing is, like, if you, like, if people are listening to this and thinking about getting into podcasting or working on any project that they want to get into, like, just start, I think then it starts to build momentum and snowball and before your brain could come up with a thousand reasons why you shouldn't do, you're already in it and you've got to chase it rather than. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was thinking about this for maybe like three weeks before I started it, because I knew if I sat on it for any longer, I wouldn't do it and I'd come up with a thousand reasons why I shouldn't do it. But I think you just gotta start and then chase after it and whatever happens and whatever you have to learn along the way, you'll figure it out. But like, just start.

Absolutely. Ben and I used to have these conversations where we kind of have like, meetings when I was consulting. I'm like, man, we're just talking awesome stuff. We need to record this. This would be so sick. And like, probably from a year, year and a half went by, we're like, no, we're just putting a date in the calendar. We don't care how it is. We're just going to do it. And yeah, we've just kept going ever since then, and it's just been a lot of fun.

Yeah, I heard a great podcast the other day. Actually. It was the Lost LeBlanc podcast, which I don't normally listen to, but it was really interesting. It was like it. They host content creators. It's kind of more from a YouTube perspective, but they were really interesting in like, one of the guys that they had on who's like, really big on YouTube. I don't watch a lot of YouTube, so I don't really know who else, but he was really cool and he said, you know what, if I'm not embarrassed in six months time by what I was putting out six months ago, then I haven't done my job right. Like, one of the biggest things that people get scared about is like, oh, it's going to be embarrassing because it's not very good. Good. Well, if you're not embarrassed, like, if once you've learned a bit, then, yeah, you, you have screwed up because you're not progressing. But I think, like, you just gotta jump into it. And I think if people, if you think that people are obsessing over what you're doing or give a about what you're up to, you are crazy. Like, you feel so embarrassed. And like, I got go on Instagram and film little reels and promote myself and, you know, push it out and people might not like my podcast. Like, genuinely, if people don't like it, you probably take up 10 seconds of their day. Is that really going to stop you from doing what you actually want to do?

You have to be vulnerable in order to get personal growth. Right? To go through that journey big time. Yeah, no one's an expert when they start. Everyone's. And if you don't look back three, six months on anything you do in life and be like, wow, I was a potato then. You're not growing.

I 100 that think that's true. And one of the, like, it feel what feels uncomfortable to me now because I, I Always used to just get commissioned, make things, sell it. So, like I would just sell a program, sell a series, like six 30 minute episodes, put that out. And like, for the ABC in particular, I wouldn't generally have too much of an idea of how it rated because it was a standalone series that often went out on a different podcast feed or on a different on or on linear radio, which the, the stats are so crap for. So genuinely I wouldn't really know how it went. So the only metric for how it's gone would be like, how I felt about it, which is really strange. Like, then coming into this and seeing the metrics is another weird thing where you can actually see who's listening and like how well it's going and what topics people like. But like, in terms of the self promotion, one of the things that I, that really stuck with me that I heard that Ash Ambigay, who's like a freelance writer in the US who's written a really cool book that I love called the Middle Finger Project, and it's basically about what we're talking about, like, like building the life you actually want to live. And she always says that if you think that you don't have to promote yourself or self promotion is embarrassing, then look at Brad Pitt. He has to go out and sell his goddamn movies. He has to go out and sit on those panel shows and be embarrassed and cringe and try and talk up these movies that he's been in. Like, it was good enough for Brad Pitt, it's good enough for me. I'm okay. I can, I can go out and do that. And that really changed my perspective. I was like, yeah, you're right. Like, no one's exempt from this.

I was gonna say the Brad Pitt metric. Absolutely.

Just keep it in there.

Good enough for him, good enough for me.

And the biggest change going into podcasting is you get that feedback, right? You can get the data, you can, you can see the audience. We can't necessarily see them. You can kind of see what they're listening to. Maybe they're sending you feedback. How does that dictate what content you create? Because one of the challenges we had when we first started the podcast is we were talking a lot about ourselves and talk about stories about what we were doing. And we, we, we got some external help, we got a mentor in to say, hey, like, we don't know what the hell we're doing. We're enjoying what we're doing, but I don't think anyone actually cares. Like, give us some help. And one of his biggest piece of feedback was we weren't delivering actionable value for the listeners. It was more just a bit of a like, what we're doing, rather than like how this actually, you know, can help you as an individual. How do you think about creating content for your listeners? And is that directed more about what you're interested in, or is it more directed about what you think the audience is interested in?

It's a bit of a mix of both. Like, coming from an ABC BBC background, that's tricky because like the BBC and the abc, they are there to educate, inform and entertain. And there's a. I know that, like, public service media now are going through a big thing because obviously they have to chase metrics, but they also have to provide content that is genuinely important and useful for people. So, like, you know, the story about what's like, going on down the street might not be super important and might. Might be super important, but might not get the metrics. But that doesn't mean they don't cover it. So I kind of approach it from that mindset. Like, if I think it's valuable, even if I think it's. It might not do particularly well, I'll still do it. So, like, I, for example, like, I put out an episode on how to spot a psychopath went off. You know that's gonna go off, right? Like, people are so interested in that, right? It's with the Zeit guys. People are into true crime at the moment. Like, you just know that episode's gonna go off. But then one, an episode that I did recently is like, how to deal with grief automatically in my mind. I'm not sure as many people are going to be interested in that. A. Because it's not like an uplifting, curious listen.

And also it's a, you know, a bit more of a serious subject. It's not going to be a light listen. You're probably going to have to be in the right headspace to listen to it. But do I think that that episode is more valuable? Yes, because I feel like it's going to be more useful, right? Like it. If it only helps 10 people genuinely deal with grief, then I have done my job. But that doesn't show on, like, itunes, Apple's podcast Metrics or Libsyn's Metrics. So that genuinely is something that I'm wrestling at the moment and not getting bogged down in the stats because, like, I think once you start getting those stats, you learn how to kind of tweak your metrics. Right? You Know what's going to get the listens, you know, what's going to really get people going, but then is, does that really provide the value that I'm looking for for people? I think it's a careful balance between what you know is going to get those numbers and what you, you know, would be really helpful. But I try and think about it in terms of like, what I would share with my friends. Again, like, what would I tell people, what would I share with people? Like, obviously I'm around the watercolor and be like, did you know psychopaths do this? Did you know if you want to spot a psychopath, you got to do this. But there's also going to be times in my life where I'm talking to my friends and I'm going to be like, I heard this great thing about grief and this is what, like, this is how to process it, or like, I know I now know what to say to you. So whilst I potentially it's not going to drive like those crazy metrics and that episode actually did do really well.

I still think it's useful and I really believe that, like, not everything that's valuable can be measured and not everything that's valuable is measured. So, like, it's really important to me that I still concentrate on those things and don't get too bogged down in the metrics because I think again, it's about the authenticity. Authenticity. Right. And I don't want to be some crazy YouTuber who's just putting out clickbait. Like, I want to provide a service that's genuinely valuable because I think that's a sustainable model for me and my listeners.

Absolutely. And the example here is there was, I think it was like a tick tocker recently. They had like a meet and greet and the line was just empty, no one showed up. But they had millions and millions of views all the time. So yeah, how deep are those connections? Right. Like Ben and I, we get nowhere near the views, but if we had a pub meetup, we sure as know that people are going to show up to meet us. Right, Those really deep connections.

Yeah. And I think, like, for me personally.

Like, that's what makes it sustainable for me because I know that every one of those metrics is a lovely person with a beautiful life looking for a little bit of help and I don't want to trample over that with stuff that I know is just going to make them click. Like, I genuinely want to give them something that's useful again. Every week I have that opportunity to Share with them something that's really useful and that means a lot to me. Like, I genuinely really take that very seriously. And I don't. I don't want to trick people into listening. Like, either it's useful for you or it's not. Like, I just. I'm not interested in that kind of that sugar hit, you know, Like, I want to give people the protein in the vegetables that's going to make them feel good. I don't want to just feed the Mars bars, you know?

Yeah. So I flick through your list before this episode and I was like, holy. Like, I am your target audience. Like, there is so much.

And the grief was actually the number one. And I know it's going to be a difficult listen, but I know it's going to be so valuable. Right.

She's amazing. You've got to listen. It's surprisingly upbeat. But I know that if I was looking through my feed, I might avoid listening to that because it's uncomfortable and I avoid uncomfortable listens.

Yeah.

I'm normally looking for something to lift me up, but I feel like it's really helpful.

So now I used to be all that, and now I'm days, I'm like, does this suck? Yes, it's gonna suck. I'm absolutely gonna do it. Because if I'm fighting it, I know it's the. Absolutely the thing that I need to do.

You're so right. You're so right.

And now I'm not gonna let you. Because you mentioned psychopaths a couple of times. You have to give us, like, the top couple of points on spotting a psychopath, because that sounds. That sounds so.

Okay.

Amazing.

It's so good. So the guy who wrote this book is called David Gillette Gillespie. He was kind of in the news when I first came to Australia because he wrote a big book about sugar in the sugar industry. So he's a lawyer by trade. But he does, like, deep dives in his own free time and researches things that he's really interested in and then writes books about them. So one of them is psychopaths. And he said he was really interested in psychopaths because he's worked as a corporate lawyer. And obviously he feels like he's come across a lot of them. So the number one thing he says.

By working with them or defending them or. Both, Both.

Both.

Genuinely. He says psychopaths are drawn to positions of power. And he says lawyers, he says politicians, he says managers. Anybody who's, like, interested in having power over other people. Like, that doesn't make you a psychopath. Obviously there's so many predicates that make you a psychopath but like they tend to be drawn to those positions of power. And he says that you can always spot a workplace with a psychopath in it or managing it because it's got a huge chain of people. Because the number one thing about dealing with a psychopath is that you can't. You just have to completely disassociate and leave. He said if you, if you think you're working for or with a psychopath, you just have to leave. Like there's no way of working around it or managing that. Super interesting. He goes through like a whole list. But it's also like a psychopath believes like are genuinely like often very good looking people who are keen to manipulate you always think that they are in the right, like very egotistical. They kind of lean towards those situations where they want to control people. And he says the number one way to deal with it, like other than leaving if you have to, to deal with is a thing called gray rocking. I know if you guys have heard of this, but it's like literally turning yourself into a gray rock. Like don't react. Be the most boring thing in the room. Don't engage like just gray rock. Because once they know they can't get anything off you and they can't use you, then they'll just move on to the next target. But it's really interesting. Crazy. So interesting.

That's amazing. I heard, I heard one as well. I don't know if it's true or not, but it was the yawning thing. So if you're in a group and someone yawns, generally everyone else will start yawning, but a psychopath won't potentially.

So he says like the what would happen like with a psychopath is they genuinely don't have like normal human emotions. So they don't register the same things, things in the same way that we would like if they were to see a car crash on the street, they might then look around to see how everybody else was reacting and then react in that way. And he says that that's why psychopaths can only tend to appear normal or create a normal relationship for about three weeks because they're doing everything that we do on autopilot by thinking everything through. So it's exhausting.

Oh yeah.

So often like you'll meet a psychopath who and you'll, you'll be kind of sucked in. Like you'll think they're normal or they're really nice and super charming. And then after two weeks, you're like, like, hang on a minute. You are completely odd.

And that's because they're, like, doing everything that we do normally. Like, all the reactions they have to think through and decide how to react.

I. I used to work in a hospital with a lot of doctors, and there was a. There was a few psychopaths around, for sure. Even where other doctors would talk about them. And Gray rocking was a legit strategy. I can't remember what we called it, but it was that we just don't engage. Like, yeah, okay, whatever. And they'll just move to the next target.

Yeah, exactly. Minimal facial reactions. Minimal reactions. Like, 100%. That's the only way to deal with it. 100%.

Otherwise I think, like, oh, I've got you. And they keep engaging and then you get in deeper.

You're like, not disengage 100%. Absolutely the only way.

Ed, when you do an amazing episode like this one, you got a cracking episode, you've got it, you've edited it, it's ready to publish, it goes out. How do you think about growing the listenership on that episode? Like, what are your strategies to, like, get the word out there? Because audio is fundamentally so much harder to share than like a video clip, right? Like, you know, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, all these search engines and social media apps are very much visual driven. How do you share and grow your. Your podcast?

So social media has been huge for me. I've got a little Instagram that I started for that's helpful six months ago, that's now got like three and a half K followers. So that's really good. And I think genuinely, like, what you were saying with the podcast, like, genuinely sharing valuable things with people has proven to be a good strategy for me and breaking it down, obviously, like, I am absolutely not an expert in social media. So that has been a whole learning curve for me, like tweaking and experimenting. But that's also kind of fun, like being a beginner at something again, I'm really enjoying and being able to learn. Because the progress that you make is so much more satisfying when you're a beginner, right? Like, you get so happy over one extra follower or like one extra. Like, on your post, you're, like, buzzing about it, right? So the metrics are so much bigger. And so definitely social media has been a big thing, but getting picked up by Apple was huge. So they contacted me and asked me to submit and, like, being featured was massive. Like, that is A huge thing. Like if you can get on the Apple homepage or on one of their playlists, like that's huge. And then like the.

The Psychopath episode actually got picked up by Spotify. I found a bit harder to figure out how to connect with them and kind of give them a heads up on what I'm up to. But it got picked up by Spotify and put onto their best podcast of the week playlist, which I really think gave it a boost. Yeah, right. So I think if you can kind of get those, that kind of assisted promotion from them, that really helps. And then I've done other things. Like in December I did, I put out 12 episodes and called it the 12 pods of Christmas.

And I managed to get onto Channel seven, onto the telly. I was like, I've got this pitch, I can tell you how to make your, your Christmas so much easier. Like here are my top five takeaways from the 12 pods of Christmas and kind of pitch that out. So if you can make a, a fuss about something that's really nothing, that's the key. Like if you can like I, because I get kind of get like what's the story from being a journalist and what people are likely to cover, that really helps. But then those things like you can't generally measure, measure massively how many more listeners you get from those different places. But definitely like Apple promo, hundred percent big deal. Spotify promo, hundred percent big deal. Like that is immediately going to help out and then social media too. But I, I honestly don't underestimate the, the power of the word of mouth, of word of mouth too. Like I really appreciate people sharing my episodes and that's kind of why I always try and get topics that I think people want to talk about too. You know, so like the grief one, I've found this is really helpful. Or the psychopath one or we did one on like divorce and I know like that's a big deal for, you know, lots of people and breakups, you know, common things that people are really struggling with. I don't know, I'm. I did stand up for a while, which I did stand up for six months and I did 50 gigs in six months. I got really into it, I loved it and. But it's just bloody hard work. Like full respect to any stand up comics. But the thing that people love is stuff that's super relatable to them and I think that's true of anything. Right. It's true of radio, true of stand up and it's like Things that everybody's struggling with common themes, things that make us all feel more human. Because it's like everybody's going through this, everybody's been through this. I'm not alone. And I think that's also the power of podcasting is like you're trying to build a little community of like minded people, right? And I think that's really helpful. And then that kind of attracts like, you know, it's that cheesy, isn't it? Like your vibe attracts your tribe. And I really think that's true with podcasting. Like, like if you're putting out stuff that's helpful for people, then you kind of attract your, your core audience, right? And after those features, you know, you have a big spike and then you'll see a few people drop off. And I see that as like building a core audience. Right. Like, it's kind of hard to see your stats go down, but I think see it come up and then you see it come down a little bit and then it kind of levels off and then each time you, you build a little bit and then it comes down and you kind of build a new base. Right? So I think, think a combination of like trying to make a fuss about nothing, like reaching out to Apple and Spotify and also promoting on social media has been really helpful. But the number one thing is like back. And that's the other thing about like really believing in what I'm putting out. It makes it really easy to back it and push it. I think people can always tell when you're trying to sell something that you are not 100 sure on. But I really believe in what I'm creating and I'm really proud of it. So that makes it really easy to sell. And I think that's the number one thing. Like I've created something that I really love and I would want to listen to. So it's not hard for me to go out and go, guys, I really think this is good.

Yeah, I think, and I think you underplay yourself. Like you're not promoting nothing. Like you, the, the way you're obsessive in a good way about your listeners.

And it's like, yeah, I am. No, you aren't.

And it's like you are. And that's what makes a good business. Like I think about, I relate not from a premier podcast perspective, but from collective shift, the, you know, business that Bergs and I run. Like, we're so obsessive over helping people, winning crypto and not getting screwed and we, that's what we're all so passionate about like we hate seeing people following bad advice or buying the wrong investments or having a crappy portfolio.

100.

Yeah, you know what I mean? And we're like, no, like we don't want your money. Just do this, don't do that.

You know, how can we help these people?

Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. Like, you know, I spent on the weekend before my holiday, I spent like an hour on the phone with this like 85 year old lady who got scammed by this, you know, online. She lost all of her savings. I was like, oh my goodness, you know what I mean? Like you, you genuinely care about these people and I think that's what creates. Because a podcast in itself is kind of like a business. Like you're providing a solution to someone's problem and if you really are caring about their problem and how you can solve that, you're going to create something valuable.

Yeah, that's why. And I think people could tell if you care. Right? People can tell. And also it's like, like I want, I feel like they're my friends, like I'm. And I think that creates authenticity because I genuinely give a, like I genuinely care about the people who listen. And it's genuinely, every time somebody reaches out on Instagram or leaves me a nice review, it's like, like, ah, like that matters way more to me than the numbers and that. And that's the other thing to keep in mind is like if you genuinely care, then you don't get dissuaded when the metrics aren't showing what you want because there's so many more meaningful ways of measuring success than like numbers on a page. Right?

Yeah, definitely. And everything you've talked about is just really genuine. It's something you like, you can keep up forever and it's, yeah, building something. Right. It's not like a short term thing where you want to exit or you want to monetize. It's something that you're truly building over time, which is awesome to see and it comes across as well.

Yeah, I really care. Oh, thank you, that's really kind. Yeah, I really care about it. But I heard this thing about success the other day. It's like when you are only aiming for that one thing, like whether it's like an Olympic gold medal or like a certain achievement at work or a promotion, like you're only aiming for that thing. Like how long does that make buzz last when you finally achieve it? It's like 10 seconds. Right. But if you actually enjoy what you're doing, and you love what you're doing. That is how to become successful because it's so easy to maintain.

Absolutely. And you've kind of mentioned the lifestyle that you want. You mentioned some numbers as well. Potentially monetizing. What sort of goals do you have for this, this podcast? Where, where do you want to end up? Where do you see it all going? What is that kind of future life for you?

Get it to pay me any money at all.

No, I, I joke, I joke. I am so lucky. And I don't underestimate my privilege. Like the fact that I, I was working for the abc and I actually left the ABC to start working on this and I work another job in podcasting three days a week. But what I really would like to do is just see where. I would see where I can go with it. And the thing is, like, now I, I turned 30 and then I said, like, I was like, oh, okay, there's got to be more to it. Like, what can I do? Yeah. So now I genuinely value time freedom more than anything. Like the ability to get up and go surfing for two hours in the morning, or, like, want to nip out and go to a gym class at midday, or, like being able to take the afternoon off if I need to go to the doctor or whatever. Like that for me now above anything is huge. Like, the ability to have time freedom. And obviously financial freedom plays into that because that enables you to do those things. So, like, time freedom, financial freedom, massively important to me. And, like, I just started to realize that, like, a traditional job or a traditional way of working is not going to offer me that. So now I really have to build that for myself. And I'm really lucky. In my other job, I have that 100. But like, any job you want, I don't think you can find on seek. Like, you either have to make it, create it, or find it. Right? Like. Like seek is so depressing. Like, if you go on there and you're just like, really? Is this it? Like, this is all we're put on this earth to do.

Like, we want you for 100 hours. Here's a list of a million things that you need to do and you're spot on. There is no perfect job. Right. It's something that you have to create yourself. Or you could get a job with a company, but then create the role that you want for your lifestyle setup and the things that you want to do. And that takes time and it takes a lot of effort. I think that's spot on. What you're saying where there's no perfect job, you know, you need to create it yourself, whether it's your own job, your own company, or a role within a company. And you need to work over a period of time in order to. This is your job now to get to where you want to be. Like the lifestyle set up and the core activities that you want to undertake. And it takes time. Like there is, there's no perfect role. I even heard a crazy thing. So when I was studying, they told us that if you have in a job criteria, 60 of the selection criteria, you are competitive. If you have 70, you're highly competitive. So there's 30 that you just won't be able to do. And because there's no perfect role built for you unless you build it yourself. And that was really eye opening for me.

Yeah, yeah, that's huge. And I also think there's that saying, isn't there? Like, don't spend your weekends wishing for the life you want. Like, spend them working for the life that you want. Like creating it. And for a long time, like I worked on the podcast as well as both of my other jobs. And then it just got to a point where I couldn't sustain it anymore. And I wanted to put out something that I was really proud of. And that takes time. But it's not like, you know, I've done it in a way that's super sustainable for me, you know that I work on it two days and then I work on it in the evenings and in the, on the weekends. And I'm pretty much always thinking about it, to be honest. But that's when you know you're doing the right thing. Right, right.

That's how you know, and that's a key point as well. Like, are you sacrificing today for an imaginary tomorrow? Like, you know, I'll work hard at this role that I hate that's soul sucking. It's affecting my health. But yeah, I'll get a bit more money. Great. What are you going to do with your life? You know, start working on that thing that you're enjoying and see what it becomes. And I was the same as you. Where I was working a role, I, I quite enjoyed it, but it was more interfacing with government. That part I didn't really like because it was just soul destroying. Right. But the people I worked with are pretty cool. So. So I started working with Ben and consulting with him and just trying it out and seeing if it worked. And then eventually, like last year you made that transition. I Made that transition as well. Right. To come over to Collective Shift. And it's one of the best decisions I've ever made. I'm a completely different human. It's almost been pretty much spot on a year since I joined. It'll be a year next week. Completely different human to where I was last year. Just the way I think and act in the things that I'm doing now. So anyone out there wondering, don't wonder anymore. Just give it a try. Or take some time off from your job. Like take your annual leave. Go try something for a month. Take leave without pay if you can, go part time if you can, or do it on weekends or nights and just see what the other side of the fence is like.

100 the best advice Ed, when you.

Think about, just to tie off this conversation, when you were working full time, you just started the podcast, like, how did you or how are you thinking about transitioning away from, you know, that sort of 9 to 5 corporate life into doing or creating the life that you want? Because obviously it's hard. Like you mentioned and touched on it. You're working weekends, you're doing nights, you're trying to like make it happen, you know, on a micro level. How does that actually play out? Are you going from full time to part time? Are you like, just going, screw this, I'm out. I'm just got all in podcasts and just figure it out. Have you got saved? You know what I mean? Like, how do you, how do you think about that?

Yeah, so I'm full time in podcasting. I work part time on the podcast. So I do two days a week on the podcast and then whatever other time I can scrape. But the thing is, like, if I think if the other job that I had wasn't flexible, like wasn't working from home, I didn't manage my own time, you know, wasn't built that way. I probably would have canned it a while ago and just gone all in on the podcast, which might have been a better thing. Do you know? I mean, like, I think unless you, unless the stakes are high, it doesn't push you to like, go for it. I probably would have tried to monetize the podcast sooner had I, like, left. But I definitely think now I could never go back to working a job where I have to be in the office by 9 and somebody's watching that I'm working until 5 and then they're checking that I'm only having 30 minutes for a lunch break. Like, I just, I couldn't do it. No Way in hell could I go back. And that is so privileged. To be able to think like that and to be able to prioritize that I'm not acting like I've got here purely through hard work, because I haven't. A lot of it is absolutely privilege and I acknowledge that. But I just couldn't go back to that way of working. I think once you jump in and once you realize what's possible, you, you can't go back. It's like the scales fall from your eyes. And one of the things that really kind of switched the way I was thinking was this tweet that I saw and it said somebody with half your IQ is making double what you do doing half the work, because they haven't got the intelligence to come up with the fear and to think through the fact that it might be a possibility that they fail. Like, you know so many people, right? You know so many people in crypto who just are making bank because they just, just don't have the intelligence to think, what if this doesn't work out? Or even like the.

Self reflection to be able to say, maybe I'm, I'm not like all that I think I am. Do you know? I mean, like, so I, when I saw that, I was like, you know what? I think the cheat code to making money and doing what you want is just not being bright enough to figure out that you might fail, right? So that's where I'm, that's what I'm gonna do.

It's honestly just taking action and it's the people that take action. And it's like that meme I always give Ben about, it's like a monkey, it's like think twice. Didn't even think once, bro. Like, they just went for it. Like, this is, this is, this is a lot of like Ben and why he's being successful today is because he just takes action. Like, he's like, nah, that, putting that thought out of my head. I don't care. I just want to take action. Let's just keep going. Whereas I'm like, like, oh, what about this? What about that? You know, like trying to come up with reasons to not do it. And I liked your point about just. There's this concept my mate was telling me about called burning the boats. So when the Vikings used to go and invade some other land, they'd all arrive on their ships. They would literally burn their ships on the shore so there's no return. They have to go and fight and they have to win because they can't swim home. That's it. That is your only option. How wild is that?

Right? So Ash Ambuchet, who writes, who wrote the Middle Finger Project, talked about that. And Jen Sincero, who wrote you're a badass. Like, they're too, like, I love those books. Like, if you need like a little judge and you need to kick up the ass to go and do what you want, like, they're American, you know, they're super. Like, they'll jazz you up. Like, they're a certain style of author. But I really like them anyway. Jensen Chero says, like, you just gotta jump in. Like when she was trying to, like, get her life together and really commit to her career, like, I'm not recommending this at all. But she went out and bought a really expensive car. So she had to make the payments. And you know what? She came up with the payments every single time. Because the future was on. Right? And that's what I'm saying about, like, I don't know whether I should have just jumped in and like, it's worked out brilliantly, don't get me wrong. And I know eventually that I will do that.

But I don't know, I just think there is something in that. Just putting that pressure on yourself and just going all in. Right? Like, don't put a toe in, dive in.

Yeah, yeah. Be, be committed. Because that's the thing. When you're committed, you'll do whatever it takes. And if you have that, that, that pressure and you think about it, when you're coming up, you've got heaps of pressure, you don't have money, you don't have time. You might have other things, but then like people and even companies, when they get to the top, you become complacent. You know, you get a bit fat, you got cash, you got happy. You know, you can kind of coast a little bit. But that is when you're at your most vulnerable and you get knocked off the top. You always have to have that hunger and keep getting after it if you want that continued success.

100.

I heard there was two types of people that become ultra successful and the reason they become that. And one is that they are so egotistical and confident that they don't give a about anyone else. Yeah, I'm going to wean you and lose. And they just go after it. And the other one is that they have a chip on their shoulder. Not, sorry, not the chip on the shoulder. They have something to prove to someone. And sometimes that can be yourself. And for me, I realized that was myself. I wanted to prove myself that I could do it. But some people, it's like a parent told you couldn't do it or someone like, you know, a maid or, you know, no one ever believed in you. So you're like, you know what? You know, this. I'm gonna prove everyone wrong. And that's like the two types of. And that's like. For me, I think the reason.

Like, I went so hard so early was probably just because I was naive about like, what I was actually getting myself into. Like, if I look back and go, shit, like, if I actually knew what we just went through and what we'd have to do, I probably wouldn't have done it though. But, you know, I think, I think that's like.

From a. From, from my perspective that, you know, hasn't built a business before or as big as this one or like having gone through the education route, it's like you don't know what you're getting yourself into. So you just go after it.

Like.

Like, you just figure it out. You have to. There's no other choice. And same to Bergs Point, like building a startup as well when you don't have the cash, when you've got a limited time to figure it out. It's like, we've got to do or die by this date or we're all going back to, you know, working at Coles. Like, we've got to get after it. Like, that's, you know, that's the only. It's like burning the boat analogy. It's like, there's no other choice to win. Like, there is no other choice. And if you're all in that mentality, it's so powerful, like, to just get everyone together. It's like, right, this is how we win. There's no other choice. Let's. Let's go, you know?

Yeah.

This is actually what Ben is like behind closed doors in our meetings where we'll be like, right, we've got this situation. And he's like, nah, this, we're gonna win. What do I need to do? And we're literally like, you need to fly to Dubai for a month and raise capital. He's like, it just books his ticket.

Doesn't know anything about the cultures or customs over there. He's like, I'm gone if that's what I need to do. I'm just doing it. Like, got to go to the States. All right, I'm there. Have to make sales call. I'm doing it, whatever it takes.

He came back a Bit burn. But you came back with the cash.

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

Whatever it is, he's like, n I'm doing. It's in the calendar and he rocks up and he does it and it's like, yeah, day one, he's going to be. And he's like, right, I'm obviously. And then he'll go and get a mentor and be like, I need to get better at this. And he'll start learning and then he'll start progressing, whether it's sales calls or raising capital, whatever it may be. And over the next weeks, you just see him become so proficient at it because it's the thing that we need to do.

So how do you find a mentor, Ben?

Oh, yeah. So. So I'll start at something and. Okay. So I also realized really recently I've got strong adhd, so which actually helps. So.

So all the best people do.

So, like, when I start something, like, I have to learn everything about it. I have to be the best. Like, I can't just be half ass or something. So when I start something with this, like, capital raising, I started out shit, I was like, okay, like, how do I be the best of this? So I just, I don't know, I network, I. I reach out to friends. I'm a part of business groups. I'm like, who is the best at capital raising? Who are they? I need to go talk to them. And then, you know, usually it comes at a cost. And again, we're privileged to have, you know, a little bit of money to be able to pay for that advice. Because usually good advice doesn't come for free. That comes from, like, you know, it comes at a cost. And I get help bring them in and then train me up. So whether it be like, you know, sales calls. Recently, the first couple of sales calls, I did, horrible, shocking. Stuffed it up, sold the wrong product. You know what I was doing. Forgot what I was talking about. Terrible. Now, like a few weeks in, it's like, you know, conversion rates, you know, gone from, you know, 2 or 3% to, you know, up to like 20, 25. Like, and that was through like training and learning YouTube videos. And I brought in like a, you know, a consultant to help me learn how to sell. It's like you just. And back that embarrassment thing. Like, you look back and go, holy shit. Like, that was embarrassing. Like, the first few videos on YouTube or the first few podcasts or sales calls or whatever. Like, man, like the first 30.

Conversations I had with fundraising, oh, my God. Embarrassing. God, I would never Speak to those people again. Look like an absolute dickhead, you know, but you just learn and you prove that's the only way to do it.

Yeah.

And look at.

Look at someone like Tim Ferriss, one of the best podcasters in the world, has been doing it forever. Go back to his first episode. It is so. And it's just him and Kevin Rose, his mate. And Kevin Rose is just roasting him on how he is.

And it took him so long to get good, and now all we hear are these amazing episodes, and you don't even care. You don't even go back, you know, or it's like someone that's in the gym that has this. Or it's like a bodybuilder. You're not going to go back 10 years and see what they look like when they were skinny and, you know, weren't lifting. You just look at them now and what they've achieved.

Yeah. 100. And I think you can get so caught up in, like, progress and how you're moving and how well it's going and, you know, all those kinds of things. And you're your own worst enemy when you're thinking about it, and your. Your brain starts going into overdrive, and it's like, yeah, well, you're not that good. You've not done this, and this isn't great, and that isn't, you know, like, we all have it. But I think the key is, like, you just keep moving, right? You just keep going. And I. I'm constantly thinking about how I can make the podcast better and how I can improve it, but part of me just knows, like, that will come over time, too. You know, like, just flex the same muscle. Flex the same muscle. Keep doing it. And also, like, the fact that, you know, I've been doing this for 15 years, so so much of what I know, I don't even know. I know because it's just in me now. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like, it's just in you. Like, stuff that you just think. I thought everyone knew that. Like, it's just. Just so. I don't know, it's just so ingrained in me. So I think some of that, too. Like, I don't underestimate, like, the. The last 15 years. I think that skill and that knowledge that I've learned is absolutely invaluable. 100.

So that's been an incredible, like, conversation, Ed, to wrap this up for listeners out there and for Burgers and I who are fumbling around with our podcast trying to figure it out. Or someone that's thinking about starting a podcast, or even someone that's doing a 9 to 5 or a job that they don't like, thinking about wanting to do something they want. Right. What if you were like, encapsulate that in, you know, you know, a minute or so? Like, what would your top tips be? That's helped, really, you get to where you are now.

Just do it. Like, stop thinking that anybody gives a shit about what you're doing, because they absolutely don't. Like, even if you have the worst cock up in the world, you're probably going to take, take all of 30 seconds of somebody's brain space. Is that really going to stop you from real, from building the life you actually want to live? I just think don't get caught up in the detail. Dive in would be my advice. Let it snowball and then you'll have to chase after it. And honestly, it has been one of the best things that I've done starting that's helpful. I felt really awkward, embarrassed about it at the start and like, having to go on Instagram and push my own, you know, it was really uncomfortable. But now it's just like, why wouldn't I want to do that? Like, why wouldn't I? And nobody will remember your embarrassing mistakes. Only you will. Like what? The things that keep you up at night are not the things that other people are doing. And it's the same for other people. They do are not thinking about what you're up to. So just go for it. And also, the other thing is, it's like, if you dive into something and you think that, that that's the thing. Like, and it's not, don't be afraid to quit because it will take you on another journey that eventually leads you to where you want to be. Right. Like, I did stand up comedy for six months. I realized that I hate being out at night. I probably should have realized about it earlier. And I don't stay up, don't like staying up late. So I realized that that wasn't for me. But then I was like, oh, what else would I like to have a go at? And, like, just treat your career or your life like a huge experiment. Some things pay off. But the thing about experiments is that you want some things to fail because they are equally as informative as the things that are success. And I think, like, we focus so much now on perfection and this idea, like, people on Instagram living their best lives, but failure is so useful and so important. And this idea of, like, putting up with Things. And tolerating things like that doesn't win you anything or get you anything anywhere. Quit more often, try new things, and that's how you're going to learn and it's how you're going to find what you actually want to do, too.

Man, that's amazing advice. I'm blown away. Wow, that is what a note to end on. That was fantastic. And it's so true.

I wish I had that five years ago. Where were you five years ago?

I genuinely love this stuff, though. Like, we have one chance. Don't waste it. This is not a dress rehearsal. Like, and you could literally be doing anything. Why not you? That's the question to ask yourself and have a tough word with your brain and say, no, I can actually do this. And then go on and do what you need to do. Like, what's the smallest action you can take today to get yourself where you want to be and just start doing it. Because it just. It's all about putting one foot in front of the other. And you'll get there and. And like, six months later you'll be like, holy, how did I do that? And you got there through just carrying on. And that's the big thing. Like, it doesn't need to be some huge grand gesture. Just start.

Brilliant advice. Let's leave it there. I think that was absolutely amazing. If you want to listen to. That's helpful. I 100 recommend you go check it out. There's amazing content in there. I've. I'm an avid listener. Birthing Burgs is now an avid lister.

Oh, literally my cue is all your podcasts now, just from the titles and I press play and I listen to your voice and like, the quality of the people. Oh, I'll be listening to that the next couple of weeks.

Thanks, guys.

Catch up on everything.

Ed, is there anywhere else that you'd. You'd want some of our listeners to. To check out your stuff?

Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram at thatshelpfulpod. I'm on there too. At Edwina Star, I have a website. If anybody wants help or advice with their podcast or has any questions about what we've found today, like, just Google me. My website will come up and you can get in touch. I'm so happy to share my skills. Like, I think the more people out there creating stuff that they actually believe in, the better. Please get in touch.

Totally. And if you prefer to not listen to Burgs, you can listen to Ed and I talk about crypto on decoding Crypto three times a week. And if you don't like me, well, you're stuck with me because I'm on both. So.

That'S it.

And I need to start a pod.

You're much better experience. Thank you everyone for listening. We've. I've really thoroughly enjoyed that conversation. Thank you so much, Ed, for jumping on. If you like this episode and you think a friend would enjoy, please share it around and yeah, we'll speak to you on the next episode. Thanks, guys.

Thanks so much, Ed.