PoolTogether Community Podcast #10: Ivy Quinn

This is the PoolTogether Community Podcast. PoolTogether is the world's number one no-loss prize savings account. You can visit pooltogether.com to deposit. You're listening to the PoolTogether Community Podcast. I'm your host, Tim, aka Hot Mike, aka Cool Story Bra, and we are here with Ivy Quinzel, or Ivy Quinn on Twitter. Ivy, welcome to the PoolTogether Community Podcast. It's great having you. Thanks for making time for us.

Thank you. Great, great to be here.

So Ivy, we met when, uh, Coordinape was doing user testing, and I was brand new to crypto. And I wanted to user test. I love user testing. I actually, pro tip, I, when I do user testing, I think of, I think of it as I'm being interviewed for a job for some reason. Is that weird?

No, I think there's like a lot of testing anxiety in general.

No, but has, has anyone ever been like so good at user testing that they've been hired? Because I think like in my, in my brain, that's what I'm thinking. I'm like, I'm gonna wow the UX team. And they're gonna be like, please, can you join our company? Does that ever happen?

Not that I know of, no. I mean, the context is, I'm not thinking about it like that when I'm doing user testing. Because I'm just not, that's not something I'm thinking about.

Okay, so when you user, when I did user testing, I didn't, I didn't wow you and you weren't like, wow, we got to hire this guy.

No, I'm like, I'm like in full observation mode. Like, what are they doing? What are they clicking? I'm doing so much analysis. That's not even That's what I'm thinking about.

That's right. And it's not about me. Let's be real. It's not about me. So this is about you. And what happened was you— we walked through, I was getting a coffee and a sandwich, and I was on my phone doing user testing, thinking that I can do mobile user testing for CORDApe. And somebody stopped me because it's Brooklyn and everybody's in crypto. So somebody was giving me tips on using MetaMask with CORDApe. Just a stranger coming by, but it was really cool. We had— I had a really great time with you, and I was really impressed with how you walked through the app and how you evaluated what I was doing. And so, uh, I was like, you got to come on the podcast, and you've— and now you're here. So this is great. All of that was an intro to my first question for you, which is, how did you get into crypto?

Yeah, so I, um, I actually am close friends with Chester From Sushi, and he was actually my former boss at our old job, and he left the company to go do crypto full-time, and I was still there. And Sushi started wrapping— ramping up with Trident, and he needed help, and I knew that I had some of the skills to help, like, bring the team together and, like, on top of the UXR stuff. So I started working for them part-time. And it kind of snowballed into me working for them full-time. And then I saw in the space, there's just a lack of user testing and research in general. And I started tweeting about it and started tweeting about the things that I was finding in research. And that's how Alex from CoordinApe reached out to me. And that's how I started working for CoordinApe.

Yeah, Ivy's— Ivy, your Twitter is really great. You post some really great— I was just refreshing, going back through that to prepare for this interview, and you've got some really great tweets, including some threads. If I need to, next time when you're answering the next question, I will go find your Twitter and I'll put it in the chat for everybody to follow you and check it out. It's really great. Thank you. So you have had a full-time job in crypto right out of the gate with Sushi, and then you decided to get another job with CoordinApe, right? And then you also run consulting. So how many jobs do you actually have?

I mean, it ebbs and flows, but right now I only have one, uh, with the side gig. Um, but because Sushi, um, has been, as we know, like trying to figure some things out So right now I only have technically 2 jobs, um, but it goes— it changes depending on what's going on.

Okay, so now you have technically— you said now you have technically 2 jobs?

Yeah.

Which is your consulting and Coordinate?

Yep.

Awesome, awesome. Okay, so how, how has your experience been in crypto so far, and how long has this been since you've been in the— in this space?

I would say I started to part-time at Sushi around the end of July, and then I went full-time at Sushi around November— well, actually around August. So, excuse me, it's been like, I don't know how many months that is, a little over 6 months. I feel like it'll be a year officially in August, I guess, if I'm counting that.

So that's like 2 decades in crypto, I think. Basically, exactly. A couple months is, is, uh, is a, is a decade. And, uh, you went to ETH Denver, did you not? How was your experience with ETH Denver?

I did go to ETH Denver. Honestly, we, we did a company retreat, um, from Monday to Wednesday, so it was just like a deep Like, mind meld that we did as a coordinate team of, like, really learning each other and learning how to communicate and, like, thinking about the future of the app, which was really cool. And it was the first time I had ever met most of my coworkers in real life, which is, like, an interesting experience. And then— I just went together. I didn't really get to any of the talks because the registration line was too long and I just refused to spend 2 hours of my time in line. So yeah, that's basically what I did. I did go to— Meow.

You didn't meow. You didn't register for the conference?

I did, but I didn't go anywhere. I didn't go to any of the talks.

But you said— oh, but you said you, you said you didn't go through the, the COVID that 2-line COVID test line, right?

I didn't. I waited until like me and my— me and Chester actually like wanted to go to a talk, but the line was too long. So we ended up going to the museum. Instead, and then we just registered at night when the line was like nothing.

So I think— I don't think we didn't get to meet up, which is a bummer. I saw that you're going to Denver and I wanted to meet up with you, but it just didn't happen. And you were on this awesome retreat with your Coordinate folks anyway. But we both potentially have COVID. Actually, we're about to find out right now if you have COVID. I found out this morning that I have COVID. I got a ping on my iPhone that said you— I was next to somebody with it and I had a cough, so I took a test and I have COVID. Ivy, do you have COVID?

I mean, the test is showing— let me put my flashlight up to it— the test is showing negative, but I definitely—

Congratulations, you do not have the Vitalik strain of COVID

It's so funny, I've been sick several times but I never test positive for COVID. I don't know if it's because I just don't get enough virus in order to test positive, or what it is, but it's kind of funny, honestly.

Yeah, me too. Until today, I thought I, I thought I was— well, although I've been vaccinated and have a booster, I just thought it was like a, like an O-positive blood type thing or something. I don't even know what my blood type is. But, uh, but hey, I'm really, I'm really happy that it was— it's good news on the podcast that you do not have COVID. Round of applause, everyone, everyone in the chat. Yes, round of applause. So you, Ivy, you've— you, you're a UX pro in crypto, but here's the deal. Everyone's shipping, right? Everybody's just— We gotta hack this together. We need to, we need to get you— like with ETH Denver, we saw all these projects come out. Well, you didn't because you didn't go to the session, but all these projects that came out and they're all, you know, wireframes and, and, and half-thought-out plans and sleepless nights. building this stuff, but I'm pretty sure not one of those teams had anyone with UX on them. And this is the struggle, right, for you, the eternal struggle is UX adds so much value, especially for onboarding new people to crypto, and crypto generally ignores it. Where's the lie?

No lies have been detected. I think— this is what I think. I think people, the people who are early adopters in this space are very tech-minded and typically are engineers. And engineers are more fascinated with the technology. They're more fascinated with coming up with new tools. And they make the assumption that a lot of stakeholders or, like, founders make is that Oh, this, since this is an issue for me, it is an issue for everybody else. Or because I will like this feature, everybody else will automatically like feature. And that's like the pitfall I see a lot of, especially early stage DAOs go into, is they make assumptions about the people who are using their product without like verifying or testing at all. And then, yeah, we have this like burnout culture in Web3 of like, ship, ship, ship, ship, ship. But I've seen so many times, even in Web2, where you ship something fast, and then they bring me in or someone else of that similar to, like, redesign it because it was shipped too fast and it's fundamentally broken. So that's the things I've seen in both Web2 and 3. I think Web3 is just falling for the same pitfalls of, like, early Silicon Valley, to be completely honest.

So my wife Karen is a— she's a pastry chef, and she refuses— like, she does— she's not on Facebook, she's not on Instagram, she's not on LinkedIn. She's a true anon, let's be real. And she— watching her use technology is very eye-opening for me. And, and I'm like, she has this brilliance when she uses a phone. And she'll do stuff and be like, why is it like this? So for an example, on your iPhone, when we used to use the fingerprint, there used to be like a little red icon that would pop up and be like, you need to authorize this with your fingerprint. And the first thing she did was press her thumb to that icon. And I was like, that's brilliant. Of course, of course, why wouldn't it work that way? Because that's what, like, that's what I just thought it was brilliant, but knowing what I know and how I use the device and everything. So I say all that to ask you, have you ever been like blown away with somebody as far as the wrong answer, but how creative it was or some sort of UX blunder that was just so massive that no one ever thought about because they didn't do UX? Do you have an example of that?

That's a really good one. I would say the only time I ran into it is when I was using— doing user testing around a specific kind of pool at Sushi. And we just made a lot of assumptions about, like, how people were going to, like, use these pools and, like, perceive it. And then going through testing, like, they just did not understand it at all. No matter how many tooltips we put in there, how much, how much information we put in there. Like, it was just like complete, like, confusion. And that was one of the moments where I was like, oh, wow, we made a lot of assumptions about what people would do. I think that's one. And also, I mean, I guess not a specific answer, but I think people don't think about, like, verbiage and UX writing is kind of really important in this space because A lot of people have different relationships with English in particular. And so, a lot of people who are making these apps are native English speakers. And so, sometimes you'll think you're describing something with a particular word that's, like, so immediately clear, but it's not. Like, for instance, we were playing with the word reward at Coordinate versus, like, allocate. And when we did user testing, people didn't understand what the context of the word reward was. And those are the things that kind of always I find fascinating is how people interpret things based on the language and everything else.

I mean, the main UX barrier that I've seen people talk about on Twitter is the connect to wallet feature. Like, how freaky is that? Hey, hook up your wallet to this site and let it drain you, right? That's basically what it communicates. Is— have you wrestled with connect to wallet at all?

I mean, when I first got into crypto, yes, it was very confusing. And like, there's— there were some wallets that connect or like, or wouldn't send the transactions, and then I would have to like reconnect and I just had to slowly learn which wallets have better reactivity than others, but it was definitely like a learning curve. I used MetaMask at first. I used Coinbase Wallet at first. I used Trust Wallet. And I had to play around with all these different wallets to figure out the one that was going to give me like the best reliability in terms of connecting, which was— yeah. If I wasn't invested in this space, I can, I can see how that could be extremely frustrating.

Well, yeah, and then we, we have this very core value of decentralization. Like, that's what it's all about. That's what it's all about. And, and so if you're truly decentral, how do you do UX for every potential thing that's connecting to CoordinApe, right? Or Or all of the things, right? You have, you have to navigate every single UX, and it's like, oh, you're using a wallet I've never heard of before? Okay, let me see how this works.

I mean, you don't, uh, you cannot solve for every single situation or circumstance or user, uh, type. Yeah, I mean, this is often done in Web2 as well. You figure out through multiple rounds of research, like, who you're current audiences are, and you put those people in mind, and then you kind of like evolve your, your, you know, your target demographic based on like where you want to take the application. Like if Coordinated had an initiative where, oh, we want to start bringing more Web2 people into the app, then obviously we would start— we would have to start recruiting and testing with those people in mind. But you just can't solve for every single thing. You have to know who your customers are. And who you're looking to test with.

So then who is CoordinApe's target audience?

We're currently— I don't want to spill all the tea. I mean, we're currently wrestling with that. We think it might be DAO admins, but then we also see another feature set and potential with just like the average DAO contributor. So I think we're still working on that. I think we have a couple of things in the works right now that we're developing, and we're trying to broaden that audience for sure, but I can't quite say right now.

Okay. No, I understand you can't spill all the tea, but who is a Rockstar user? Who's your favorite DAO that uses CoordinApe? You know,

I'm sorry, you cut. You said who's like the current audience of CoordinApe?

No, no, who's, who's your favorite DAO that uses CoordinApe? And then I coughed, which wasn't a COVID cough. My cough was, was trying to lead you into the obvious answer.

I don't— I mean, I don't play favorites, but since I'm here, I'll just say I mean, I looked at you guys'— like, I did a little research and looked at how y'all are setting things up. I was like, wow, they're so organized and like about this Coordinate life more. I mean, one of the most organized DAOs I've seen use Coordinate so far. Um, but I don't like to play favorites.

But you said it was pulled together. You said it was pulled together. We're your favorite. It's so good. So this brings me to you. So we go from UX into DAOs, and you've got some tweets about DAOs. I wanted to know what was, what was your thinking about DAOs? Because I've seen the tweets, I've seen on the, on the crypto Twitter where there'd be this tweet that's like, name a DAO that's made anything that's worthwhile. And then somebody responded, MakerDAO. And they're like, okay, nice one, but name another one. And so, but you've got thoughts on DAOs, Ivy, so could you share that? How, how does one succeed in the DAO-verse?

I mean, honestly, I think this is my, my hot take on DAOs. I think you, in order for you to have a successful deorg— like decentralized organization, you need to be very picky about who you consider community and who you consider contributors. The most times I've seen DAOs run into issues is when they don't have standards or requirements for who they consider community and contributors. And when they don't have a shared sense of trust and values that they, you know, use as a litmus test for future, you know, for the future in general. Like, I've been in a DAO that doesn't have that. I've been in a DAO that does have that. It's just like night and day difference. Like, at Coordinate, we have a set of values that we all agree to follow and to embody. And whenever we're making decisions and we run into friction, we look at those values and be like, you know, what is— what do we value as a team? How do we move forward based on how we all collectively value working? And a lot of times DAOs don't do that work. They're just so focused on shipping, so focused on product that they don't even do the work to, like, know each other, or know whether they're a good fit for the organization. And that's where you run into, like, ego issues, and, like, power struggles, and all that. Like, I think that's— and that's why when people are, like, anti-hierarchy, I'm just like, no, you can have— you can have a non-hierarchical organization, but it's just gonna take more work. And not everyone is gonna be on board with that. You have to find people who are okay with ambiguity, who are okay with no leadership, and who can do things and get things started on their own. And not everybody is like that. So that's why you have to be picky about who you enter into your DAO. And I've seen it work, but I think a lot of DAOs are struggling with this because For one, just need bodies to build shit and you don't have time to, like, culture fit everybody. And then 2, they didn't— they just didn't have the foundation in the beginning to use as a litmus test for future contributors is my take on it.

Oh, yes, we need bodies to build shit. Oh, oh, we need bodies. I hear that track. That's going to be— that's my next— that's going to be on my next album. So that's— that was awesome. I love in the chat, everybody's like, fantastic point. This is so good. Can you, can you tell us what CoordinApe's values are? I know I'm putting you on the spot, but generally I feel like most DAOs can gut— they can gut their values. You know what they are, even if they aren't, even they aren't explicit. I think it's a very small process to get them to be explicit, especially for PoolTogether. I don't think that any of us would say what our values are. We don't have like a— it plastered across the top of our Discord. But, but, but I think that most of us can get around the same 3 or 5 words. What's Coordinapes?

Yeah, I mean, we have 5. I mean, honest, to be honest, like, I suck at memory, so I don't remember all 5 of them. But one, the couple that I do cherish is like, one is honesty over comfort, which means like, if we're ever in a situation where We need to, you know, just be completely honest with each other and, like, tell each other where we're at. We value honesty. And we don't— we'd rather just hash it out. Excuse me. And talk through it than to, like, you know, bite our tongue and become resentful. I mean, that's one that I appreciate a lot. And then one It's something along the lines of, like, decisions over consensus. So, what that means is, like, everybody has autonomy to just make decisions about product— products, you know, features, processes. And, you know, we'd rather just get shit done or, like, people just be autonomous and be able to make decisions rather than having to, like, always come together and come to a consensus. Because sometimes you're just never going to come to a consensus on something. But that thing needs to still just get done. That makes sense. So I think—

Yeah, I love those.

Those are the 2 that I value the most.

Okay. So culture eats strategy for breakfast. I fully believe in that. And you said that there's honesty over comfort, but then how do you have an honest environment that still is one that's safe or one that is where there's trust? And, you know, because you could be brutally honest and verbally abusive and in an environment. But I noticed one of your tweets that you said that you really love being on the Coordinate team. You feel like it's a real— they have a great culture. So how does one have that discomfort and balance that with like a healthy culture and trust and safety?

Yeah, I mean, one of the exercises we did during the retreat was practicing what's called nonviolent communication. And all that is is a framework for you to communicate your feelings and point of view in a way that isn't antagonistic or, like, problematic. And so, since we practice that as a team in person, we use that as a framework to, like, work through some difficult conversations when we need to. Like, we find that a conversation is, like— and it doesn't happen that much, 'cause, like I said, a lot of people in my circle are just hella chill and— Trustworthy and, you know, and empathetic. Empathy is a thing that we have a lot in, in at Coordinated. So, it doesn't happen as much, but when it does happen, we have those tools. And we do have what's called a people team, which is, like, you know, randomly selected people in the organization that kind of help work through, you know, conflict resolution and discourse. So we do have that as a backup if nonviolent communication doesn't work. So we have a lot of checks and balances.

Yeah, I was just about to ask, generally with culture, you have to have somebody who, or multiple people who are in charge of it and overseeing it and nurturing it, cultivating it. And so that's that team that you just said, or is there somebody else in Coordinated who is over that?

I mean, I feel like we did it collectively the past 3 days. But the people who were leading it was definitely Zach, Drake, Crab Singer, were some of the people who were, like, leading a lot. And Moshe, who's our— who's on the team. They were— we were kind of like— that team was, like, helping with that culture piece of it. And I would say we're definitely a different team pre and post retreat, I would say.

That's really great. I love, I love hearing that, that there was something successful for CoordinApe outside of East Denver and that you were able to do that retreat. How many people were there? How many, or how many people are on the CoordinApe squad?

Say 15 people were at the retreat, but we have a few people who are abroad. So I would say total around 17 to 20. We do have some people who aren't full-time on the team. Yeah.

That's great. Okay. What's your biggest win in crypto and what's your biggest rug?

My biggest win in crypto was finding a team who actually incredibly values design and user research. I felt like I was— I felt like I won the lottery or something because it's just not in this space. And the fact that I was able to find a team that was like, no, we're all about it, do it, was like, what? You're just gonna let me do this? That's crazy. So that was definitely a win, like finding a very design and human-centered organization to contribute to. I would say rug. I mean, I guess the biggest rug was I guess watching the development of Sushi after we had built so much stuff and we were working towards so much stuff. I mean, what you learn, especially as a professional, you know, engineer or designer, sometimes you'll build something or you'll work really hard on something or you'll put so much energy on something. And then for whatever reason, it just doesn't materialize the way you thought it was going to materialize or it doesn't It just doesn't work out the way you want it to. And I think that's how I feel about the drama that happened after we had done all that work to build the shit. So I guess that's my rug that was kind of hard.

Yeah, it's interesting to ask this question to each guest and hear different angles in crypto where if somebody's primarily an investor, they're gonna give that kind of answer. If somebody's a dev, they're gonna give a builder answer. And yours was a very community UX, uh, also builder answer, which is, which is great. Do you have any of those for like NFTs or, you know, the investor explorer space in crypto?

I mean, I admittedly, because I'm so head down in my work, I don't Invest that much. Um, but I mean, the project that I invested in this year was Crypto Coven. I bought four of them. Actually, that's another rug. I sold them too early, so now I only have one left, and I feel very sad about that. Um, and then yeah, I mean, that's pretty much. I've been kind of getting into NFTs because like with coins is like. I don't know, it's just not as fun to like follow as NFTs are.

I mean, that's— you, you, uh, what is it called? You tiered in and you tiered out, or you like, um, ah shoot, I forgot the term. But it's, you know, that's a smart investment, right? So you sold it for more than what you bought them for, and you still have one that's going to the moon. That one's going to the moon, we know.

Yeah, but I'm like, I, I should have hoarded them. I was, uh, paper hands.

Yeah, that's always the, you know, whenever you make investment decisions is you always feel bad about yourself, basically. Um, and, uh, shoot, wait. Oh, at least you didn't, at least you didn't, uh, get in the Tubby Cats. Did you do any Tubby Cats today?

No, I'm actually really interested in this other NFT project called Whimsical Sisters. Um, it is very similar, like, vibe to Crypto Coven, so I want to be early to that. But I didn't get into any. I'm more interested in, like, women-led, feminine kind of NFT projects.

Yeah, yeah, give us all the— all those. What are the projects you want to plug? That's really great.

I mean, not too many. Like I said, I don't— I don't follow it too heavily, but, like, Whimsical Sisters, definitely Crypto Coven is, like, my OG, like It was my first NFT, first project. I'm still bullish on Sushi. I hope it rises from the ashes. I'm very biased towards Coordinate. I think we're going to— the shit that we're working on is going to be, you know, a lot like basically like change the way we work in DAOs, which is super exciting. And then, I mean, PoolTogether. I was telling my partner about the concept of PoolTogether and he was like, what? I'm just like, yeah, it's like the lottery, but like you don't lose money. And he was like, I don't get it. But I think it was really cool, um, what you guys are doing. Um, that's the only thing I can think of at the top of my head.

Oh, that's great. Thanks for mentioning PoolTogether. That's great. Uh, we're— we've got new features, but it's very much— I mean, you being the UX pro, uh, we have— we're struggling. I mean, we're going through our message and how we communicate ourselves, how we market ourselves. And it's a prize savings account that you can— it's no loss, you're not going to lose, but you, you win, right? You get these prizes, which is pretty fun. Mm-hmm. But we're introducing this new, very difficult to communicate feature that's super powerful, which is delegation. And so I could delegate my prizes to brand new people that I'm trying to onboard into crypto, or people who have smaller savings accounts in PoolTogether. And I can— and you'll see this in the Discord, people are very generous and they're like, oh, you haven't won in like weeks, let me delegate to you so you can win some prizes. And it's a really cool feature. But we're even trying to go for like, what if Crypto Coven had, you know, a pool of let's say $100,000 in PoolTogether, and then anyone who had one of their NFTs could get that delegation? It would be randomly drawn. as a reward for having CryptoCoven. You don't even have to be in PoolTogether to get this delegation. And then you go check PoolTogether and you might get $100,000 worth of delegation and prizes over that week. But it's very complex as far as delegating, how to communicate it, how to market it, because people are like, wait, what? You like— I don't get the $100,000, but I get, I get your prizes? Is that what— okay. So anyway, I don't, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, me, me just kind of pitching it to you right now.

Yeah, I think breaking it down, I think with anything that I do, a project, UX, whatever, it's— when it's big, it almost feels like you're trying to tackle a bear, right? And sometimes I, or a lot of times, I like really do a lot of work to dissect and break down concepts and things like that. So with the delegation project, I mean, That sounds super interesting. How I would probably frame it or break it down is like, okay, what is the core of this? You're giving away, or you're giving, you know, other people who are not in the— who can or cannot be in the pool, like, prizes. So, what's the best way to visually communicate that? What's the best way to verbally communicate that? I think visuals over everything. So, if you can Visually show, like, a map or a graphic or something like that, that helps get a concept across really quickly. And then video is very powerful as well, and motion graphics. Because, like, sometimes people don't want to sit through a video, but I think it pairs well with visuals. Because if I see visuals, I'm like, okay, I get the gist of this. And then there's a video, I'm like, oh, then I can learn more about it. That can definitely help. I'm sorry, my voice is cracking.

That's okay. You don't have COVID, so it's fine. You— but that video that you would have, are you walking a user through the steps and how to use the site, or are you talking just high level, getting the concept of what delegation would be?

I think high level, and you can use that in marketing on Twitter and things like that.

That's great, that's really great. We will take that back to the marketing team for the delegation NFT launch. Right now it's like buried in the account. You go to your account and then you do more info and then you can delegate to people, but hopefully we'd have like a page of NFT projects that were delegating their prizes to random NFT holders, which I think would be pretty popular. So, okay, so what are your predictions, Ivy, for 2022? And I mean, this could be anywhere, NFTs, UX, DAOs, anything. Give us your predictions.

I think DAOs are starting to learn that UX is important. And the reason why is 'cause there's a lot of cross-pollination and people who have worked in Web2 moving over to Web3. Because, I mean, you can make good money and they're kind of tired of the monotony of Web2. And so with hiring top talent, especially top UX talent, especially from these companies that highly value research and UX, I think that's gonna permanent, like, you know, start to change and challenge DAOs to rethink about the way that they do work, which can be a good thing. I think right now we've built a lot of foundational apps and technology, and because of that, it's going to be a UX game, right? Because if everybody has similar technology, everybody has similar features, users are going to go to the app or the, the, you know, the protocol that has the best user experience. And I think DAOs are starting to recognize that a little bit. Excuse me. And then, you know, start to invest in that, which is also a good thing. I think with DAOs, I think DAOs are still trying to figure it out. And this is what I see often. Either A, a DAO crashes and burns. They realize that the decent— because of whatever lack of foundation or whatever they had. And then they revert back to traditional corporate structures because that's what they know. And they don't know how to figure out a decentralized way of working. And then 2, I've seen people who are really about that decentralized life and build really good foundation. And I think that those are gonna start to be the examples that people will use to form new DAOs. I think right now we just don't have too many examples of well-functioning, well-oiled DAOs that are truly decentralized. And as people start doing it well, that will act as a template for new DAOs to use as governing structures and organization structures. And another thing, I mean, it's hard to say where things are going to go in terms of technology because you just never know. I don't want to— the future makes fools of us all, so I just don't know anything about that kind of stuff. That Web3 is going to mature and we're going to see a more buttoned-up version of the culture slowly but surely is what I think.

The future makes fools of us all. I love that. That's going to be another track on my album. And then we're going to see a buttoned-up version of Web3 this year. I love that. I am seeing So many listings. I mean, people are hitting me up on LinkedIn, not that I'm like anything or a big deal or whatever. People are hitting up Leighton, who's one of the core contributors here at PoolTogether. On his Twitter, he posted just like something simple about, hey, I know somebody who's looking for a community manager, hit me up in my DMs. And he just got flooded with other dApps, other DAOs that are desperate for community managers. This is The position, I think, of 2022 is hiring that community manager. Do you have any advice, any, any thoughts, any tweaks, any, anything related to that most desired position of community manager? Like, who's good for that? Who would you put in that seat? Would you tweak the job description? What needs to be in the job description? Just riff for us on community managers, Ivy.

It really depends on the person because, like, each community has its own vibe, has its own culture, has its own, you know, value system. So, it's really, it really depends. I think what people are looking for as community managers is, like, someone who can match the vibe, you know, but also has the skill set to, like, help with marketing, help with being in touch with the community. I think a lot of marketers could be good at this job. But I also think a lot of people who, you know, people who work in organizational psychology, you know, HR kind of people could be good at that job. But I think honestly, anybody could be good at it, as long as you are invested in the community and know a little bit of marketing and like a little bit of UX. It just requires like a very unique skill set. And I say X person will be good at this and X person won't be good at this. It really just depends.

Do you think the community manager is the new CEO? No.

I think, I think the future is no CEOs.

I wanted to elevate community managers because I feel like it's a poo-pooed position, right? They're the— they're the captains now. But yes, that's right, we're decentralized. There are no captains. You're so right.

Yeah, I mean, I appreciate— I mean, I'm really closely connected with Reese at Coordinate, community manager. I mean, I, I think, uh, Tangle at, um, at Sushi is a really good community manager. I think— oh, also, actually, hot take— I think you really need— if you don't have a good DAO structure The community manager, like I said, can be the captain very easily because they're the one closely connected to the community. So if you don't have a good DAO structure, you could have a coup. Um, that could involve your community manager because they're the ones— the people who are closest to the community are the people who have the most power over governance. And you need to be careful and put people in organization that have good, good souls and spirits to be closely connected to the community because they could easily be weaponized against you, especially if you don't have good DAO structure. That's one that people don't think about a lot.

I love these hot takes. I want to— I know that we have to end questioning and get to the hot takes. I wish you had a bag of hot takes, Ivy, that you could just whip. Boom, another hot take, another hot take. It's really good. Hey, so, uh, do you have advice for someone maybe like me who's new to crypto? I've been in it since November 2021. Who looks at every Web2, every traditional LinkedIn job description and is like, oh, really? Oh, and just closes the tab. Can't even look at that anymore because we've been red-pilled. We want to work in Web3. What's your advice to somebody who's exploring the job market and wants to start working for somebody and start building?

I mean, Web2— Web3 highly values people who are very skilled in their field. For one, I think that could be an easy shortcut. And I know that's— I say, but it's like, if you're a very highly skilled person in Web2, it's going to be way more easier to go— for you to go to Web2 to Web3, because like there is a need for a lot of highly skilled people in this field. Which is why I kind of stumbled into the jobs that I stumbled into. And I think one, which I think people need to start— stop being married to companies, stop being married to DAOs. And I think people need to start working on their own branding. Like, what do you have to say about the skill set? What do you have to say about— like, build your own brand, I would say. And once you start building your own brand and like doing the work, It will be a lot easier for you to market yourself, what you're interested in, and be like, hey, I have this skill set. And then they look at your Twitter and they're like, okay, you're talking about some real stuff. They'll give you a shot. And then once you get that shot, you know, you got to bring it because you're on a trial period, like whether you're going to be good for the organization or not. And you might have to go through a couple of those. I think it's definitely a journey. And like, my journey was very unique to me. And whoever gets in Web3 will Their journey would be very unique to them. So I don't think there's one singular way to get into Web3, but that's my advice. And then if you're trying to get into Web3 and you're like, you know, a junior level or, you know, mid or low to mid-level person, I would say network. And I know this is the most generic answer ever, but it works. Network, but don't network for the sake of what can this person do for me. Network for the sake of like trying to truly learn about people who are highly skilled in this field. I like to go— I personally like to go on a couple of informational interviews a month, or at least once a month, where I reach out to a designer or I reach out to a researcher. I just reach out to people who I find interesting and just talk to them and like learn about their journey and learn about their skill set. And that then helps me inform the way that I design. So, I think, yeah, if you're junior to mid-level, just be a sponge and just jump in and start doing stuff, you know? Just, you have to be a really good observer. For instance, if you go into a DAO, no one's gonna tell you what to do, but you have to know that DAO deeply enough to anticipate their needs. Okay, what do they do? What is— what's their product plan? What features make sense for this DAO? What, what if I was this DAO, where would I be in marketing? And like, ask yourself those questions and kind of fit into and start providing skills based on your observations about that DAO. I think that's a lot of where a lot of people suffer. They just jump in and then they're so used to like Web2 and other places where people just give them a job, where it's like, no, you have to be highly observant and highly Um, you know, just you have to be analytical about how you contribute to a DAO. And then once they see you, you know, contributing value and like doing things for the DAO that's truly needed, then that's your gateway into like every other thing.

That's another hot take. I love that. That was really great. I have a problem being an idealist with— and, and being someone who cares a lot about culture and believes in it. I have a problem with meritocracies. I can't put my finger on it. I need to read more about it. But I do feel like if you merit— you can meritocracy yourself to death and to horrible culture. So yes, it is, are you building? Are you producing stuff? But there also is this, are you nice to people? Are you making friends with people? Mm-hmm. Do you value people for something that's more than like can you make me money, especially in this field, right? Yeah, it's not a cash grab. Are we making something that's beneficial to humanity? And, and how can we continue this? And it's really great to hear Coordnape is doing that, like they're investing in culture. Um, so I don't know if you have any thoughts on meritocracy versus culture and how to, how to get a right balance there for community.

I mean, It is a balance, right? Because I think it's just a trust level system. Like, if you're new to a DAO, they want to see, you know, they're like Rick and Morty, like, show me what you got. So, you know, it's like becomes more of a meritocracy. But then once you, you know, show that you can deliver to a certain quality or level, that's when I've been able to start to touch into that more cultural piece, because then I built that trust. Based on the work that I've done. And so I think it's just levels to this thing, things. I do agree with you, like, if you approach people or network— I've networked for the sake of I need to network because I need a job. And then I've networked because I was privileged enough that I had a job and I generally wanted to just meet people. And the energy that you get in those 2 situations is completely different. People tend to be very guarded if they think that you're trying to use them for a job or opportunity or whatever, like, that conversation is very rigid versus when they feel your spirit of like, no, I just want to learn about who you are and like what you're doing. I just— there's been times where people literally scheduled calls with me just asking me about like who I was and how I got where I got. And then I've had calls with people who are just trying to like get something out of me. And it is a different vibe. So I would say network for the sake of being interested in people and not for the sake of what can that person do for you. And then when it comes to meritocracy, like sometimes when you're early or new to an organization, it's required. But try to get to that cultural piece as soon as you built that trust with that organization.

I love that. Show me what you're working with. That's great. So this brings me to my final question. It's a 2-parter, and that is, how can people reach out to you for consulting? Because you do consulting. And I forgot the second part of my question. So that's my question. And I might follow it up with something else. But how can people reach out to you, Ivy, for your consulting? I see that you link to it in your Twitter profile.

Yeah, people just DM me on Twitter mostly. And then I send them a meeting link and then we just talk. That's usually how it goes.

Do you have a preferred— I noticed that you consult and when people reach out to you to have your services applied to their DAO or their app or something, what are your preferred jobs? Like, where do you think that you really could shine for somebody in this consulting role? Because listen, the answers you're, the answers you're dropping are fire. And so you could go a whole different, a whole couple of directions here. But what do you think is a really sweet spot for you in your consulting biz?

I mean, to be honest, I'm not sure. I mean, I've been approached to do long-term research projects, which I feel is kind of like a little bit too much in combination with my coordinator work. Um, I've been approached to do more UX, like, like overview or oversight, which feels fine because like, I don't mind like giving tips on like, okay, you need to put this here or that there. That feels good to me, like UX generally, like general consulting. And then I've done— I mean, right now I'm doing a small UI project for an NFT, which sometimes could be nice too, but small enough. As long as I'm not designing like a whole app or something, which is going to take a lot of my time, like one-off UI projects like landing pages or, you know, portals of sorts is fine. To be honest, like, I need to expand my business. Like, I probably need to hire somebody to be able to take on more jobs because I'm only one person. But in an ideal world, if I had another person working with me, I would love to take on more user research and testing clients.

That's great. Ivy's hiring everyone. So I figured out my final question, which is everyone seems to be building in space. Everyone I talk to, they've got a side project, they got a side hustle. Yours is consulting for sure, and you need to build a team doing that. Great. But it's crypto, so what else can you put on your plate? What would be a project that you would be interested in building? Like, if you were on a team and you started from scratch, what are you thinking?

Like, if I was like a founder, what would I build from scratch? 100%. I think— I don't even know this can be a thing, but My personal struggle with crypto is that my wallets and my, and my accounts are like all over the place. And the one thing that I appreciate from traditional finance is being able to log into an account, move money from like my checking to my savings, etc. And, and being able to like have a, like a centralized place to send money to different places, like pay bills and like— All these other things, and I think the hardest part about getting my friends and family into crypto is that like oh well I don't want to lose money or oh I don't want to you know whatever and I'm just like no you don't have to think about it like that you can just literally park money into an account like I use Celsius sometimes and just get interest rates that are just way more competitive than you would get in fiat but I think it's hard for people to like. Change their mindset. So if I was building something from scratch, I would try to build like a bridge or somewhere that would meet people in the middle of like traditional finance and Web3 and be able to account for fiat and crypto assets and have like designated accounts that like earn interest and things like that is— would be an ideal. thing that I build because that's what I want. And I know that bringing people into crypto, that would be a good bridge to get. But I have to do research to figure out if it's even the thing that people want. But yeah.

That's fully aligned with PoolTogether's mission. And so when you build your thing, you got to give us first dibs on pitching you a savings account, a prize savings account. For your new onboarding wallet fiat thing, neobank type deal.

Okay, so I'll put y'all on the ground floor.

Yeah, we got the inside track. So I— one, I do have one more very important— you have a cat on your Twitter banner. How many cats do you have? Are you a cat person?

I have 2 cats. I think 2 is the limit. 3 gets a little weird. Um, so I only have 2. I don't anticipate becoming a crazy cat lady anytime soon.

You see, you see, because I'm cat rich. On my profile photo, you'll see 5 of the cats, but there are more cats.

How many cats do you have?

So, okay, all right, we'll talk about it. So I have— this isn't about me, but I have currently 9 cats.

Wow.

And we had a, we had a, a cat come into our backyard in Brooklyn and give birth to 7 kitties. So we had 6 because 2— no, listen, we started with 4 and then 2 came into our backyard, we adopted them, and then we had another one who came in and gave birth to 7 cats. So at one point we had 14 cats. Please don't tell my landlord, but we're adopting them out.

Full-time, or do they have Do you have come-and-go cats? Because I really don't count them.

I mean, they very rarely— they'll go outside and sniff the cold and come back in immediately.

Okay, so you have 9 full-time cats, not part-time.

That's right. So if you're into another 2, we can, we can ship them cross-country. We can make that happen. Double your investment. But we're cat rich. That's what I like to say,

right? Yeah, we're cat rich. I mean, I love cats, but I just could not see myself having more than 2 because like they're, they're little drama queens. Like there's beefs and squads and you have like a little ecosystem happening once you get more than 2 going.

That's totally right. Totally right. That's right. And it's even like levels of altitude where they will live, right? They're like up— one's up on the towel rack full time, you know? So yeah. Well, Ivy, thank you so much for joining us for the pool PoolTogether Community Podcast. The Discord chat's been banging. It's been so fun to have you and learn from you. You dropping those hot takes, and really seriously, you've made PoolTogether a better protocol just from being here and dropping your wisdom here. And thanks for joining us, really appreciate it.

Thank you, thank you for having me. I was very excited when I— when you DM'd me, I was like, whoa, I could be a guest? That's so cool. It's a little fancy.

That's right, we're fancy here at PoolTogether. All right, everybody. Nice meeting you too. Tim is out. We're done. Drop the mic. Thanks for listening to the PoolTogether Community Podcast. You can visit pooltogether.com to deposit, and we'd love to hear what you thought about today's episode. So visit the PoolTogether Discord and let us know.