PoolTogether Community Podcast #35 with Stader Labs

This is the PoolTogether Community Podcast. PoolTogether is the world's number one no-loss prize savings account. You can visit pooltogether.com to deposit. You're listening to the PoolTogether Community Podcast. I'm Hot Mike, AKA Tim, AKA coming to you At the top of the world in Midtown Manhattan at a WeWork.

So hopefully I won't be interrupted, but, uh, and I'm here with Stader Labs. This is exciting. So we've got Vibin and Anish Paps here. Thanks for joining us on the Pull Together podcast. Excited to talk to you about Stader. No, thanks a lot for the opportunity. I'm super excited to talk to the Pull Together community. Uh, super excited to share what we're building at Stader. Cool. So Crypto Texan on Twitter pinged me and was like, you gotta have Stader Labs on the pod. And I was like, yeah, let's do it. And then boom, special Tuesday edition of the podcast where we're recording. So you guys were able to come on and we were able to do this lickety-split. We're booked out till October, but we got a special spot for you. So that's, this is exciting. We've got hot news. I'm looking at Stader Labs right now on the website and it's this multi-chain liquid staking. Yeah. Can you explain to me what that is? What does that even mean? Multi-chain liquid staking platform. Absolutely, Tim. So I'll just talk a little bit about what we are building at Stader, right? So essentially at Stader, our vision is to kind of bring the next billion people to staking, right? Essentially. And the way we want to do that is by making staking very simple, convenient, and safe for users, right? Today, when users typically want to stake, they face multiple challenges, right? From having to choose the right set of validators, Knowing what might happen, how to choose a validator who's performing well and won't get slashed, for example, where to even stake, what does it mean to do all of this? So our role is to build a protocol that simplifies all of this so users can come in and within 1 or 2 clicks can actually stake with a curated safe set of validators and earn staking rewards, right? Now, number 2, what we try and do is to make this accessible. One of the things that we want to enable for users across the world is liquid staking. Now what happens typically when users stake is that the staked amount is actually almost put in an escrow with the native staking contract of whichever chain that we are on, which means that those funds are inaccessible to users, right? So typically users have to then choose between participating in the thriving DeFi ecosystem, for example, or the NFT ecosystem, or actually have their funds locked in staking, but kind of help the ecosystem kind of become secure and earn the staking rewards, right? So one of the things that we want to enable is with liquid staking, people no longer have to make a choice, right? People can actually earn staking rewards, but at the same time participate in DeFi as well. And the way we do this, Tim, is actually by giving a token, which is a derivative and represents the underlying stake token, right? For example, one of the chains that we are on is Polygon, for example, and users would come stake MATIC with Stader. We would in turn deploy that MATIC with the Polygon native staking contract to help secure the Polygon ecosystem. And in turn, we'll give them a MATICX token, which is our liquid staking token, which they can then use all across DeFi, right? And the MATICX is basically a representation of the staked MATIC and will continue to earn stake rewards and will act like an interest bank. So that's in short what we are trying to do with liquid staking at Stake. So basically staking is this proof of stake, which is, we all know, like, or not we all know, but ETH2 is this Ethereum moving from proof of work to proof of stake. And staking is that security layer, that security system that you're providing. So you're able to provide this for Polygon or Harmony or other chains that you have available to you on Stader Labs. Yep, go for it.

Yeah, right, Tim. So today we are live on Polygon, Hedera, Fantom, BNB, Near, and Terra 2.0. So those are the chains that Stader is already live on.

So you can stake and then you can go take that staking and do stuff with it, other things. Primarily, I mean, what I'm looking at is like liquidity pools, right? So You're able to have like a, the pair of MATICX and MATIC on Balancer and you can add liquidity there. So what's the business development look like for Stader? Are you trying to get more products involved, more protocols to accept MATICX as a token that they, you can do stuff with? 100%.

And the idea is, Tim, that the liquid stake version of any particular native token is, becomes almost Usable across the entire DeFi ecosystem, just like the native token, right? In, in this case, for example, our objective is to make MATICX usable across all of Polygon DeFi, just like MATIC would be, right? So I'll start by talking a little bit about, Tim, all the opportunities that are already present for users, for example, with MATICX, as in, I'll use that as an example, right? So today users can start with the simplest of things, like you mentioned, they can go to Balancer. for example, as a protocol and provide liquidity to MATIC-MATICX pair. And because these are assets that are correlated and MATICX is a representation of staked MATIC, this also has near zero impermanent loss as a pool, right? So it's a, it's a great LP, which is almost like a pool with no impermanent loss, right? So that's the simplest thing that users can do. Number 2, for example, they could also provide single-sided lending, right? So there are a lot of There is leverage yield farming opportunities actually with the MATIC-MATICX pool on MESH Swap. So in order to facilitate that, users can even take their MATICX after staking and earning staking rewards with MATICX, they can then do single-sided lending of MATICX, right? And this goes into the leverage yield farming pool, for example. Other thing that they can do is actually they can use MATICX as collateral. And for example, we are just going live with Chirao, so they'll be able to mint MAI at like a very low fixed interest rate, right? So for example, you can use MATICX as collateral and mint MAI at a 1% fixed interest rate, right? And we are already working on our Aave proposal as well. So our snapshot vote just passed in the last week. So we still have a process to go, but with the Chainlink price feed that's recently coming for MATICX, we are positive about, for example, MATICX being used as Collateral on the MaticX Polygon Aave V3 Polygon market, right? Now, if I talk about more sophisticated use cases as well, right? For example, we have tied up with an options trading platform called Delta Theta on Polygon. So users can actually trade MaticX options, right? Which means they can actually do something like a covered call option, for example, right? Where they can sell a call option with MaticX so they not just earn the premium from selling a call option in a stablecoin like DAI, but they also, in the underlying collateral that they hold, which is like MATICX in this case, they continue to earn staking rewards, right? So a wide variety of use cases are already live and we are building on a few more. And like you mentioned, Tim, the idea on the BD side of this is to make sure that MATICX is usable pretty much all across Polygon DeFi, just like MATIC would be. And what that would enable for us is that today, let's say about 35, 40% of MATIC is, of circulating supply of MATIC is actually staked. Tomorrow this could actually become 70, 80%, right? Because there will be a staked version of MATIC that can then be actually used in DeFi. So that's our objective and that's how our VD work also happens, Tim.

So with staking, I understand that you're providing like security by by locking up your MATIC, right? So, you know, but now that you're using it, it's now unlocked again. So what, that makes me think, okay, what are the risks here? What's the danger of moving, of providing, making staking liquid?

I think that's an important and very good question, Tim, right? So there are 2 parts to this answer, right? So I'll just talk about 2 sets of people. And how we think about risk and like what is good versus what's not so much, while it appears risky, why it's not so, right? So number one, typically what happens is that we don't allow validators to participate, right? So one of the large reasons when we think about who secures the network and who kind of operates the network, right? There are 2 layers of staked assets that come through, right? One, what validators self-stake themselves. And then there's a layer of assets that come through from delegators, right? Who stake with a specific validator. So what we do is because we don't want any conflict and the primary people who operate the network should always have assets at stake. So validators, we don't kind of include in being able to mint liquid staking assets, right? Their self-stake is always in a self-stake manner, right? So that's number one. Number 2, from a user perspective, then what we are enabling is just capital efficiency, right? This is not usable in 2 places because either you have to transfer the assets to someone. Let's talk about this being truly liquid, right? What are we saying? So if let's say I want to swap out of my MATICX position, that means someone else will then pick up the MATICX position from me, which means they hold now the stake position with the underlying ecosystem. Therefore, there is always someone who understands what they're doing and buys into providing security for the network at that point in time. Now that's just about swaps, right? Now let's talk about, let's say, using that as collateral on borrowing on top, right? This is very similar to any other asset that you have, right? When you have MATIC and you're getting price appreciation of MATIC, you can still get capital efficiency by actually using that to borrow stables, for example, right? A lot of ETH believers or MATIC believers would probably borrow stables and use it for even their expenses because they long-term believe in where MATIC and ETH prices are going to go and they feel this is more capital efficient. What we are now enabling them to do is actually just add the layer of also supporting and securing the network, right? Now, at any point in time, even if the collateral becomes at risk, that means someone else will kind of take over the MATICX. From this particular user as they go through the process of liquidation, right? So at any point in time, right, this is just a mechanism of actually creating capital efficiency for users. But at like always, there are users who are holding the staked MATIC, right? There's never a chance that nobody's holding the staked MATIC and the actual MATIC that is secure with the network is not held by someone. Does that clarify it?

Yes, totally. So how, I'm not sure how familiar you are with PoolTogether as a savings account, but, you know, basically we talk about no-loss savings and how you can deposit your USDC into the pool and get prizes daily from yield of that, which is based in Aave. And so I wonder what would a partnership look like between Stader Labs and PoolTogether where we're all in the USDC world and you're all in the MATIC world, or, you know, depending on the chains. But really, I think MATIC, I see Avalanche is coming soon, so we're also there too.

Yeah, correct. And I think this could be a very interesting kind of partnership, Tim, right? Like, I think obviously lending networks are one source of reliable yield for protocols such as yourself, right? Which then enable this Like no loss kind of savings game that people can play. Now, actually staking is also very much a great candidate for an opportunity like this, right? What we could do together, Tim, for example, is that we could allow people to, for example, deposit MATIC and we could get staking rewards on top of MATIC by, let's say, depositing it into getting MATICX, right? And then at the end of the period, for example, All the rewards can actually be pooled together and given to a few lucky winners, for example, right? And given the nature of staking rewards, right, these can actually sustain very large kind of amounts being staked and rewards being provided, right, without that being drained or going much lower, et cetera. So it's a fairly large opportunity that we can unlock for users where rewards, staking rewards can keep coming through on a daily, weekly basis. Which can then be converted into like a weekly price opportunity or a daily price opportunity for PoolTogether users.

I love that. And then I'm also thinking like there's this full lending borrowing option. So if you're really, if you're really believing in Polygon and MATIC, and why wouldn't you? It's great. You could stake your MATIC and then you can borrow against that MATIC USDC and then put that into PoolTogether, right? That's available here as well. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

And Tim, the, yeah, the completely other angle we can think about as well, Tim, is that, for example, at some point when you, like, for example, we could use the USDC and borrow MATIC with that and then stake that MATIC and get yield on top, for example, on stables as well. So multiple opportunities that we can work together on. We could start with stables, we could start with MATIC, for example, and figure out ways to bring more more secure prices for pooled together users.

So then what, what does version 2.0 of Stader Labs look like? What's the next iteration of what you're doing? I mean, obviously there's more protocols you can incorporate, there's more chains that you can incorporate, but is there like another product out there for you that you're thinking about?

Yeah, absolutely, Tim. There are a couple of things that we can, we are thinking. In a very core way beyond obviously more chains, right? So I'll cover that, Tim, in any case, right? Because more chains is part of our plans for expansion this year. Essentially, Ethereum is something that we are looking at very closely, obviously, and that's something that we are working in the background on already, right? And Avalanche is another chain that you are present in, which we are looking at as well, and a couple of other new upcoming chains as well, right? So those are— Yeah. a few key chains that we are looking to expand over the rest of the year. Now, apart from that, the other thing that we are looking at it is from a product perspective, right? So what can we give users which brings really the power of liquid staking home and how can we make it super accessible to users, right? So there is a vault product that we have built on some of our other chains actually, right? So for example, on Terra, we had already built DeGen vaults as a product where we actually deploy a strategy with liquid stake token. So for example, on MaticX, one of the things that we are exploring is what kind of vaults can we create for users which uses the best possible yield opportunities with MaticX and makes it as simple as participating in a Yearn Finance vault for users, right? The users should just be able to come in and provide their MATIC and they'll be able to transparently see where we are gonna deploy that MATIC, right? So we'll convert that, stake that MATIC to get MaticX. And then deploy the MATICX in a specific strategy, which could be on Aave, which could be on LP provision, et cetera, which will be transferably available. But we'll just make it simple and more accessible for users, right? And a common strategy actually that's very popular, right? Even on ETH with liquid staking tokens is the leverage staking product, right? Which multiple people have built. So that's one angle that we are thinking about, right? For example, we could build a product on top of Aave where Users deposit MATIC, we stake it to get MATICX, we borrow MATIC again in efficiency mode at a very high LTV, right, to get MATIC and then stake it again. And we do this loop like 3, 4 times, for example, right, to get like really 15 to 20% yield on MATIC, which is very, very juicy, but adding very low risk because MATICX and MATIC are so closely related. Now, instead of the user having to do it himself, And think through the number of, the right number of loops to do, et cetera. We could actually abstract it for the user and build the strategy clearly laid out for a user, actually get community feedback and make those wallets which could be very accessible for users. So that's one product piece that we are working on. The second piece that we are actually actively working on, Tim, is also reaching out to more user categories as well, right? There are a lot of people who are today on exchanges, et cetera, who might want access to liquid staking and also all the DeFi opportunities that it opens up, right? So one of the things that we are working on is how to use the infrastructure that we have built on top of the native staking contracts to bring all those users also into the DeFi ecosystem through liquid staking, right? So this could be a partnership where some of these exchanges could offer vaults or through their wallets offer the Stader dApp and the vaults. including liquid staking and some of the other opportunities that they can use with liquid staking. So from a category perspective, that's another thing that we are kind of working on so that we can bring a lot more new users also into DeFi through this entry route.

I think one of the ways to onboard people into crypto, or one of the main things that I see wallets and central exchanges trying to do is abstract away the complexity for the user. So what would that look like with Stader Labs? I mean, you kind of mentioned a little bit of it in that new product, but like, how do you, what are some ideas that you might have about, hey, here's how to like stake and then leverage and then options and stuff, but like in a product that somebody who's not financially savvy could understand, you know? I don't know if you have any ideas on that kind of abstracting away the complexity of DeFi for the new crypto

user. 100% with you, Tim. Right. I think while we have a fantastic early set of community that understands all this complexity and knows, is fairly sophisticated and is using DeFi in all its glory. I think, like you said, right, I think the key thing that we might have to do to drive adoption is gonna be to abstract away and strip away a lot of the complexity that exists today, right? So today, if users have to fully like kind of unleash the power of MaticX, right, they might have to take MaticX, Then actually go to a trading options trading opportunity like Delta Theta, then figure out, for example, what strike price they might want to offer on the call option. Now, some of this is very, very hard, especially for new users who are firstly new to crypto, but for some of these complicated financial opportunities as well, right? Because these are opportunities which are made possible by DeFi, but it's not typically available to most retail users in the traditional finance world, right? So this, even for people who are well versed with, let's say, investment outside of crypto, these opportunities could be fairly new and still very complex for them. So 100% with you on abstraction and stripping away some of the complexity. And the way we plan to do that, Tim, is by making very simple vaults along with very clear articulation of what is it that the vault will do? What are the risks and the advantages of a vault like that? So we feel like a lot of what we need to do is kind of bring the power of all the opportunities that MaticX will open up, but in a simplified format to users, right? So this could mean, for example, I spoke about the leverage staking world, right? So because Matic and MaticX are so closely linked as assets, someone who borrows, let's say, Matic with MaticX and then loops it is at very low risk of liquidation, right? So that's something, obviously we have to choose the right parameters. And bring that opportunity alive for users so that they don't have to just stake and get 6%. They can actually use the stader vault or the degen vault that we'll build and let's say get a 15 to 20% opportunity. Right now, similarly, there could be a DeFi option vault that we could build, right? Where we talk about the strategy that's used, but essentially strip away the complexity and give a single click for the user to participate into an opportunity like that. fully understanding the risk, right? There is a fair amount of education we are still going to have to do, but I feel like from a usability perspective, there's a lot of like the effort that is involved in going to multiple dApps and using it across, choosing the right parameters, et cetera, that we can strip away for users and make it very simple and accessible.

But if there were like a Stader Labs wallet even, I could see like across all wallets, any MATIC that was not being used immediately for gas could be staked, right? Like that could be an integration into like a wallet for you. And especially if the risk is so low, I don't know if that's even worth it for you, but that's one way I would think that it would be abstracted away.

Yeah, that's a great idea, Tim, actually, right? I think What you're talking about, I think as an ecosystem, we have probably just started scratching the surface of an idea like that, right? So a good example of this is, for example, what Balancer does with their boosted pools, right? Where they know that some of this liquidity is not getting actively used in their LP, so then they deploy it into an Aave or a Yearn Finance vault, et cetera, right? Similarly, what we could do, and we are talking to them about the right shape and form to do this, is for example, they could even stake the MATIC that's not getting used. Now I'm talking about an LP now, but the same idea can actually be applied to all MATIC, right? Now it's a great win-win-win, right? It's a win for users because they're earning passive rewards, which is coming directly from tokens set aside by the ecosystem to secure the network, right? So that's where the yield is coming from. You're participating in helping kind of strengthen the security of the network and helping decentralize it as well. Right? So that's why it's a win for users. From a community perspective, right, for the Polygon ecosystem, more of this MATIC that's lying, let's say idle, which comes and like kind of becomes staked and helps secure the network, that kind of makes it like even harder and makes the whole Polygon ecosystem even more secure. And obviously it's a win for the overall DeFi ecosystem and Stader as well, right? I think that's a great idea, Tim, and that's something that we need to work slowly about educating users and how it can become like a natural flow sometime in the next version of staking as it happens.

I love that idea of just like what's idle out there in crypto and how could it be used? How can it be put to work?

Which, you have to do that now actively. Like, okay, I'm going to have this idle MATIC. Okay, I got to go take action. But What does it look like if we automated that? And then speaking about abstracting away complexity, I just recently did this campaign because I'm doing business development for PoolTogether and I'm like, well, why don't I put my money, my USDC where my mouth is and delegate?

So we have this thing with PoolTogether that's called the multi-delegator tool. Interesting. And basically you can take your balance in PoolTogether and delegate out your prizes. delegate out your balance to multiple users. And I'm trying to encourage like NFT communities, any, anybody with a treasury to put their idle money, their idle USDC, their stables into PoolTogether and then to delegate it out to their users or to reward, like as a reward for contribution or whatever that may be. But even going on Twitter and delegating out my balance to 15 people.

Yeah.

I, I, I'm the ex— the amount of explanation that I have to do, the amount of like, are you scamming me right now that I have to do? And I'm just trying to be like, I'm trying to be generous and like delegate out prizes. Yeah. But it's just so funny. And you know, it's that whole, oh man, like this is not instantly accessible. We're, you know, how, how do we communicate even like the cool opportunity that I'm giving you my prizes? Optimism right now from PoolTogether. And, you know, so I wonder what does that look like with Stader Labs? Like, is there a way for Stader Labs to use multi-delegation through PoolTogether to reward even more so those who are staking with MaticX or that are even contributing to the community?

That's actually a very interesting idea, Tim, right? We have not thought specifically about that, but essentially, yeah, I think Why not like use the assets that are idle? Like we just spoke about idle MATIC, for example, right? Similarly, if there is idle USDC in the treasury that exists, it could potentially be deployed to earn prices that could then be given to our users, right? And which could be like a great positive surprise. I think one of the, like, I think if done well, if communicated well, like you said, right? Because that's important, communicating it well without appearing— because of how some of these scams are around, right? But essentially, if we could communicate well, there's nothing better than a great positive surprise for our users, right? So imagine being able to kind of use our treasury to create some of these prizes and actually being able to distribute it to some of our loyal stakers. And this is going to be a surprise on top that they get. And I think that is going to be a great positive surprise and a retention lever for us overall, right? A good experience for users to absolutely do.

And I think like with Polygon, I would assume that Polygon would be really on board with that kind of partnership where, you know, like as you're featuring MaticX on Polygon, then it would make sense to partner with PoolTogether on Polygon for the, hey, we're going to put this much, you know, a million USDC and we're going to delegate it out to anybody who's, you know, all the wallets that are staking Matic on Polygon. Polygon, and it's like a win-win-win. But again, yeah, it's just that how do we communicate it? How do we make it easiest for especially like NFT people? NFT people are very, in my experience, very wary of DeFi, which is interesting to me. You know, if it's not on mainnet and if it's not an NFT, then they're like, I don't know about this. So it's also like bringing that NFT community into DeFi. And making it as easy for them. So yeah, there's just a lot of opportunity there. It's just doing the hard work of communicating well and, you know, having these conversations and like, how can Stader and PoolTogether and Polygon partner together for the next 6 months and see a win-win-win for everybody? I think it's possible. I think we're going to do it.

Yeah, I think so. Definitely. Yeah, I think it's a, I mean, it's great to know the challenge that lies ahead, Tim, but definitely something that's probably worth figuring out together and kind of bringing together a surprise like this, right? And in fact, Tim, one of the things I could think of, right, is I think you have this great technology where people can get these weekly prizes, right? Imagine being, opening up MATIC, let's say, to be deposited on, pooled together on, let's say, Polygon chain. Right. And we could stake it and from the staking rewards kind of create a winning pool for users, et cetera. So those are all interesting things where people don't even have to kind of convert to Sabres. There can be some of these native tokens that could be opened up with staking rewards as an opportunity as well, which could be quite exciting.

That's great. That's great. Okay. So let's open up, we'll be in touch. We'll keep talking about this, these partnerships for sure, because I'm sure there's something there. But what do you see out in front of you? What else are you excited about in the DeFi space, in the crypto space? What are you pumped about?

Yeah, I think one of the things that you are asking about Matic in particular or in general DeFi, is that what you're checking?

Anything, the whole landscape in front of you.

Yeah, I think one of the things that we are quite excited about is the way the whole derivatives market is kind of really gaining traction and what's kind of being built there, right? We feel like there's a lot of opportunities for options and derivatives to become a massive kind of opportunity for users, right? Because I feel like, again, a yield-bearing version of the token, right, of the native token would be a very interesting opportunity. So I strongly feel like maybe on the derivative side, we are very, very early in terms of where we are. And that's one thing that we are watching very closely in terms of how the market evolves and some of the synergies that are possible there as well, right? And apart from that, outside of DeFi as well, we are looking at the metaverse side of gaming and how that's developing alongside all the NFT ethos that it has and kind of what it can bring together, right? Because that's a fascinating kind of macro theme that's playing out. Both in Web3, but outside of Web3 as well. That's something that we are looking at. Personally, I'm looking at closely as well in terms of how that's going to play out.

Yeah, I have a, my best friend is like really into options trading and it scares me so much. So I'm not, I don't, I would be into options trading if there was like a non-degen version of it, because like no loss options, I'm down with that. No loss options. Only up, up only. That's

great. Yeah. And glad that we did. I think Amit is probably requesting to speak. Maybe we can pull him up and if he has anything to add.

Okay.

Then go for it. Yeah.

Okay, great.

Hey Amit, how are you? Go for it.

There were like a ton of issues. Sorry for the delay. I was hearing all through the conversation. It was a very interesting conversation even for me. I didn't, I didn't mean to interrupt. Why don't you guys continue the discussion on DeFi options. Oh no, just do you have, I mean, I would love to hear from you as props. Like, do you have anything else to add to the discussion or anything like any ideas that I brought up for you? Just about anything that, just about anything that we talked about, not, not even necessarily options or derivatives.

For sure. So one of the things that, that I am personally excited about is how, how users can actually exchange risk, right?

There are some users who want to, who are quite bullish about the price, but They want to hedge against the yield that they are generating on top of the liquid asset. Similarly, there are certain users who want to hedge against the yield positions that they are on, right? Like given the liquid staked asset is a combination of the price appreciation of the native asset as well as the yield, there are several interesting composable risk marketplaces that can be built on top of these assets. And that is something that is quite exciting to me.

And we've started working on building such a vault on Terra before the Terra 1.0 collapse. I think we'll probably continue to invest our efforts in building such interesting opportunities for users to bring their liquid staked assets. To illustrate an example, let's say we have liquid staked Polygon, and in the future, in the future, say for example, the yields are quite varying, right? As the transactions keep varying today, mostly the yields are fixed, but in the future, as the as the inflation reduces and the chain moves to completely transaction-based taking rewards, the yields are completely dependent on the way transaction rewards are given out, right? Now, if if I if as a user I hold ETH. And I want to actually get a fixed yield on my ETH at 3% or so because I might not be as bullish on the— but on the other hand, there is a second user who is quite bullish on the transaction volumes and want to actually give a fixed yield to benefit from the upside of the transaction volumes, right? What we could do is we can create a tranche where users can deposit their liquid assets and, and they can exchange their positions, right, on the future yields using this wallet.

Okay, awesome. I, I, I, I think I'm understanding this, but I also, you said something very interesting that currently with Stader, the yields are pretty fixed. And I, anytime I see yields in DeFi, I just assume they're variable. So is, is that what you said?

No. So the, what I am referring to When I said fixed yields was the fixed PoS yields, proof of stake yields. They're typically fixed. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. Okay. I'm, I'm understanding now. I'm understanding. Awesome. Very cool. Very cool. Yeah. So, so now you can build composable things on top of not just yields, but on top of price also, right? And yields can be used to suppress the price downturns. What's the name for that? Is that, is that just another derivative? Yeah, you could just call it as another check. Got it.

But you got to come up with a zingy, a cool zinger of a name, you know?

Yeah.

Like yield, give that name. Yield price boosting. I don't know. Okay. So, so what, what, yeah. So the question for both of you then is just like, well, well, I mean, we're wrapping up our time here, so just what, what else should we talk about or did you want to talk about on the podcast that we could Ooh, Talus Sky with Poly Yield. I like that. I like that. Especially if it's on Polygon. But yeah, anything else that you guys, that we haven't discussed that you'd like to feature about Stader?

Vibin, do you wanna cover anything? Yeah, I think we covered a fair bit of ground on what we are building on the liquid staking side itself, Amit. Maybe you can add a little bit on the SD side and all the utility that's coming for the Stader token as well, right? Especially on ETH. That would be something that could be quite interesting. Yeah, for sure. So for those of you who are probably not familiar with our token, we have a token called HD, and that is an ERC-20 token. And we haven't introduced either staking or governance yet. So those contracts are currently built and undergoing a A thorough audit. Once the audit is completed, most, most probably by the end of this month, we'll be launching SD token staking as well as governance on the protocol. Especially the governance participants can vote on, obviously, how to spend the treasury, how to spend the DAO funds, any future decision-making regarding stakers, expansion, like the treasury spends on rewards, et cetera. And also several key parameters like validator, like policies around which validators to onboard, what is the criteria for onboarding those validators and all these things.

Sorry, when you said staker token, I'm like, ooh, when airdrop? But it's out and it's—

got it, got it. It's actually out in the market. It's been, yeah, it's, yeah, it's there. It's being traded on Uniswap and several other exchanges across the globe.

Well, yeah, we're going to keep talking about partnerships and how we can make this idle, I love this, the idle, whatever's idle, idle crypto, how we can use it, how we can activate it both with staking, liquid staking, and with stables with PoolTogether and Polygon. We'll have this exciting partnership coming up. So thanks for joining us on the PoolTogether podcast.

Thank you. Thanks a lot for having me. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity, Tim. I know you're booked till October, like you mentioned. We are very glad to get this Tuesday special podcast. So thanks a lot for the opportunity, Tim. Always a pleasure talking to you.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. So this will be out, I'll release it out next week. So we'll give me 7 days to edit it down and do all the podcast description and stuff.

But very cool. Thanks so much. This is awesome.

I learned a lot. Learned my Face has been melted. Thank you.

Thanks everyone for tuning in today.

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