PoolTogether Community Podcast #52 with Scooter from Revest

This is the PoolTogether Community Podcast. PoolTogether is the world's number one no-loss prize savings account. You can visit pooltogether.com to deposit. You're listening to the PoolTogether Community Podcast. I'm your host, Hot Mike, AKA Tim, AKA there's a tornado outside, but I feel safe and cozy. And I'm here with Scooter from Revest Finance. Scooter, thanks for being on the podcast with the PoolTogether community today.

Yeah, no problem. Glad to be here.

I'm so pumped to talk to you about Revest and talk to you about Resonate. And but first, we got to hear about your story, Scooter. I love hearing how people find their way into crypto because it helps me with my story, tell my story better, and also help encourage other people to get involved with crypto. So why are you here? How'd you get here?

Yeah, I mean, it's a long story. I was— got into crypto at the end of '17. Oh, that was fun. I, you know, I think the first introduction I had to crypto Was a friend who was using buying illicit things on Silk Road with Bitcoin, and a little bit later I decided, hey, you know, maybe there's something to this this internet magic money thing. And I think the first token I bought was actually IOTA back when IOTA was all the you know all the talk of the town. So. I, uh, you know, made some small investments in, in crypto at the end of 2017. Those did really horribly. I think I, I held it basically like the entire like bear market. Uh, I was, you know, I didn't really understand any of the underlying technology or any of that. I was just kind of speculating like everybody else at the end of that, that bull cycle. And I, over the next few years, just, you know, was more interested in like the trading side of things. And eventually when that didn't pan out for me very well, I decided to like earnestly like get deep into technology. Um, so I, you know, started to learn the economics of things, the— a little bit of coding. And I just started like hanging around communities that that had projects that that I was interested in, and one of those in this last cycle was Revest. I think actually initially heard about it on Chico Chico Crypto's YouTube channel, and it seemed really interesting like using NFTs to basically like you know instead of pointing to some JPEG. Uh, instead, like, these NFTs point to, like, a relevant piece of, like, on-chain financial data. That seemed like a really cool, uh, cool thing they were doing. So I started hanging around the Revest community as much as possible, and eventually, uh, I think, like, last February or March, was it Rob offered me a job to be a part of a new business development team. And this was centered around not Revest, but a new product, Yield Futures Protocol, that would eventually become Resonate. And so, if there's people out there, if you're looking to get into the industry and start a career in the industry, I highly recommend the best thing you can do is be there. Just be a part of the community, be involved. And that's all I did. And so here I am, a part of the business development team. And I've been doing this for about 7, 8 months now. And yeah, just super excited to be on the other side of things, not just be an investor or a speculator, but actually get to put deals together between protocols and hedge funds. And we're just doing all kinds of really cool stuff that I never thought I would get to be a part of. So, that's my journey to crypto. It's been really exciting. And I think it's just the beginning of things.

So, one of the biggest hurdles to overcome in crypto is to gain adoption, to onboard normies, the crypto curious, to expand the amount of people in the ecosystem. And so a lot of that communication of what your product is and what the values are, you like the technobabble, you got to whittle it down into something that's like zingy and something that can stick. And I think one of the reasons why PoolTogether is successful Or I think PoolTogether is easy to explain, easier for me to explain to my mom or my normie friends, although they still glaze over sometimes. But looking at Revest website, revest.finance, you've got some really cool things on here that I want to know more about, but I'm also like, ooh, how do you even communicate this to people? So right now, I'm looking at your site and you have like, make illiquid positions liquid. And I love that. I want to know more about that. So could you just walk us through how to use ReVest? What are the things that we can do?

Yeah, sure. So much of— if you look at traditional finance especially, there's a lot of value created where you have the— at the intersection of liquid and illiquid assets. Basically, if you can take something that's liquid and make it more illiquid or vice versa, there's some value to be extracted from So, you know, to put it simply, what Revest does is we take— you can take any ERC-20 and, uh, or any EVM, uh, compatible token, and you can lock that into an FNFT and, um, you know, basically make a, uh, a non-fungible position, a unique financial position. of any arbitrary set of ERC-20 deposited into that FNFT. And at first that might seem like, oh, there's not much to that. But when you start incorporating that into staking systems, you know, yield farms, rebase tokens, what have you, that's when things can get really interesting. So Now, just as an example, one of the recent partnerships that we made with Velodrome, we have— this is through Resonate, which I mentioned is a yield futures protocol. We have Velodrome LPers locking up their LP tokens. In this case, I believe it's Velo USDC. They're going to lock that into, uh, an FNFT on Resonate, and they're going to receive basically an upfront payout on their future yield, right? And on the other side of that deal, we have a, uh, the Velodrome treasury. They're going to offer that upfront payout, and in exchange for basically purchasing the interest rights to that, uh, LP principal, to those LP tokens, um, at a discount, right? So it's— we're basically aligning incentives between, uh, the protocol treasury and the LPers in that case. And basically what the, the— from a liquidity, uh, perspective is happening there, you've got LPers who currently can just come and go as they like Right. And that's not so great for the protocol treasury, for the protocol necessarily. So what Resonate allows the Velodrome treasury to do is, you know, while they make a return, they're also locking this mercenary liquidity. They're locking that down for like a certain amount of time, say 6 months or a year, whatever it might be. And so essentially they're making that LP or make their position illiquid for a time, and they're trading that time for an upfront payment now. Right. So that's where value that, that Resonate— that's an example of the value that Resonate produces through making something that's currently liquid, in this case an LP position, more illiquid. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that totally makes sense. And then how is that paid out?

Yeah. So in this case, I believe Velodrome is paying out USDC as the upfront payout. So they're going to have an LP come with Velo USDC. They're going to make an upfront payment, which is just based on, on the future expected yield that that LP position would, would gain over a certain amount of time. And they make that upfront payout in or non-native token. In this case, I believe it's USDC. And, and yeah, the LP gets that. They get that, that fixed upfront payout. And, uh, they also get this principal FNFT that contains the rights to their principal. And after, uh, if it's a year pool, then after a year they would regain access. They'd be able to unlock that.

Okay. So, I'm seeing this, like, so you can create a position and you get this FNFT, the financial NFT, and then there's like, you can fractionalize it. So, there's a couple different— you're creating a time lock, right? You're locking in value, and then you can fractionalize it. I'm just trying to wrap my head around that.

Well, you know, let me Let me step back for just a second because something I should explain is Revest, you could think of it as— do you play video games?

Totally. You can hear it in my voice, I know.

So you know that you have these game engines like Unity or what's another one? Unreal. These are some of the game engines that That we use to build games, right? So Revest, this is just the, the FNFT software as a service. Uh, you could think of those as like the underlying game engine that Resonate builds on top of, right? And Resonate specifically is a yield futures protocol, right? So basically issuers and purchasers are trading, uh, rights to future interest, right? So yeah, so Revest is more of like, uh, the underlying technology, and Resonate uses Revest's FNFTs, basically separate principal from interest, right? So, so in regards to like the, uh, the series thing, that's something probably more— it isn't exactly applicable to Resonate specifically. Um, maybe there's a way an example where that would make sense to fractionalize. But the fractionalization of the, of the FNFTs allows you to basically, uh, create like a series, right? And, and, you know, you could split up a number of tokens into, into a series and, and be able to, to dole those out. Like, some of the use cases for that might be, let's say, Uh, like team token vesting, or let's say, you know, you have, uh, users who, you know, have some vesting schedule on their tokens, you could set up a series FNFT to, you know, and deposit those tokens and be able to dole them out that way. The cool thing about that is You know, you could take something that, for instance, is like an escrow token, right? And you could have that split up into a series FNFT and be able to, uh, those FNFTs themselves are still tradable, right? Like on any secondary market, OpenSea, LooksRare, whatever that might be. PaintSwap, um, who's actually developing a, an FNFT-specific, uh, uh, side of things on their platform for us. So that's really cool. So these FNFTs are including the principal and yield, uh, yield FNFTs that Resonate produces. These are tradable across any secondary market. So it creates a kind of like, say, a meta layer of commerce where it doesn't affect that the buying and selling these FNFTs doesn't affect the underlying position.

Yeah. So, uh, just an idea that has been tossed around in the PoolTogether community is the ability to deposit in a PoolTogether. And when you're deposited in a PoolTogether, you have a certain probability of winning based on the amount that you're depositing. And so, you could do the same thing. You could deposit in a PoolTogether, you could lock it down for, say, a year. You put $100 in PoolTogether for a year, and that would give you the probability of getting a certain amount of yield. Right. But you could do it. I'm not saying that this is the product, but this is where my mind went when you were explaining this, Scooter, is basically you can— it's almost like a scratch-off. Like you at that moment determine like if you won or not and your money's locked and you still get your $100 back, but you have like a certain probability of chance right now to get the yield right then and there with PoolTogether. And I love on Resonate, your website, the website that runs, you know, Revest is, is the foundation of Resonate. There's this, I want more tokens, I want tokens now. Or if you switch the button to later, more is, is I want more tokens later. So you can either have tokens now or more tokens later. And that's, that's really good UX right there. Uh, I get it, I get it right there.

So anyway, I appreciate it.

I was just thinking if PoolTogether had a now button or a wait button kind of thing is a pretty, pretty cool use case there.

And, and, you know, you know, PoolTogether doesn't necessarily need to do anything on their end. So like we could build a Resonate pool on top of PoolTogether, right? On top of your, your just your flagship product. And users could through Resonate deposit into PoolTogether. And basically sell their future expected yield on that position, on that principal, for a fixed upfront payment, and they get it right now. So that's pretty cool. And then on the other side of the deal, the purchaser, as we call it, they're going to be purchasing the rights to that yield at a discount. And that's the trade-off that they're making just based on the time value of money, right? Money is worth more now than it is later, right? Right. So yeah, maybe there's some synergy there that we could, uh, get into.

Yeah. And then as far as purchasing, that, that's happening on secondary on OpenSea, right?

Oh, so that happens directly on Resonate. So, so we kind of have like a, a fuse pool type system where you match, uh, within the Resonate pool, 2 different parties, call them issuers and purchasers. Issuers are, uh, say in this case, users who have together tokens or whatever the vault token is. They would bring that on the issuer side. They get the upfront payout and the principal FNFT that has their principal locked in it. And the purchaser on the other side of the deal, you get the yield FNFT, and that will have pushed to it all the yield that comes off that principal position. that set duration. Make sense?

Yeah, it makes sense. But, but these could be on other secondary—

Yeah, they are. Yeah. So they— so yeah, we do match the issuers and purchasers within the Resonate pool. But of course, that yield or principal FNFT, both of them can be after the fact traded on secondary markets. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. And in Velodrome's case, in the example that you gave earlier, they're, they're providing that now or later thing, right? They're providing the, the you're going to lock and Velodrome is going to give you USDC immediately so that you, they, you mean that you have to maintain that USD, the liquidity position. However, like, that's, that's them just guaranteeing the sale. Oh, on the open market, it could be different, right? Like, I mean, it could be somebody could pay more, somebody could pay less.

Yeah, no, totally, totally. I mean, you could have Say a yield FNFT, somebody, some purchaser has entered a deal and they've got this yield FNFT. And let's say the expected yield over the course of a year is like a 30% APY. So they're expecting to get, that's what they made an upfront payment based upon. Now let's say 6 months in that yield farm has, I don't know, it's gone up and it's expected to go up more. That's the general sentiment of the market. You could take that yield FNFT and, uh, you know, get totally liquid again. You could take that to a secondary market and sell that potentially for more than, than, uh, what you paid for, um, you know, relative to the, uh, upfront payout that you've made, right? So yeah, there's— like I said, these FNFTs are tradable across any secondary market. We do even have protocols that are working on building this out now, but they want to offer, build out collateral debt markets for our principal and yield FNFTs, actually be able to take these not just to a secondary market to sell them, but to use them as collateral to take out a loan against.

Right. Yeah. So, that was my next question is about peer-to-peer lending. We've got some big fans. Richard's in the audience. We've got some big fans of peer-to-peer lending. And thinking about like, how could this be used to make that easier to do some matchmaking? You know, right now it's happening in Discord channels and there's some— we've had— we have a Twitter Spaces tomorrow with Pwn. So there are services to use that. But it sounds like you also have your own kind of OTC thing going on, like your own matchmaking.

Yeah. Do you mean like arranging issuers and purchasers together?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean.

Yeah. So one of the, one of the, uh, I think a little bit of this is due to just like the current market conditions. It seems like you have a very busy community here. A lot of communities, you know, aren't faring that well and they don't have a lot of, you know, a lot of users, um, just not around right now that were around a year ago. And so one of the recent sort of pivots, if you will, that we've made is we've started reaching out to hedge funds and like just whales, potentially, you know, big LPs. And we're arranging deals between them And protocol treasuries on the purchaser side, who maybe are interested in like some treasury diversification or just driving sticky liquidity to their own native yield farms. And yes, we're putting those deals together. We're having a lot of success with that. We've got hedge funds arranged with, partnered up, if you will, paired up with Alchemix, with, um, uh, what is another one, with, uh, Yearn, with a handful of others. And you're gonna see a lot of, uh, next few weeks you're gonna see a lot of rollouts of these type of deals. Uh, just a little bit alpha, we got some GLP-based pools coming out very soon. I would say expect those in the next couple weeks. So yeah, so that's one of the things that we're doing. The current market conditions is trying to get hedge funds. You know, frankly, a lot of them are, and we're starting to learn this as we're reaching out to these guys and talking to them. They're pretty spooked right now with everything that's gone on. Even we've talked to some outfits that have that lost some money recently on FTX, and what we have found is that. We can offer them something that is not only, uh, actually more lucrative than what they were, uh, you know, to give them a higher margin than what they were making, uh, purely having like only one foot in crypto and being like, you know, relegating themselves to centralized exchanges and doing market making, what have you, operations on that. Uh, we're able to put them something where they can make quite a bit of money there, which is what they're used to, is what they're looking for. We can also make it, uh, relatively even more safe. What they're used to, right? Uh, by having them basically go full bore into DeFi, that's, that's our goal, is to take some of these hedge funds that only got one foot in crypto and, and have them, you know, up into the pool, right? So that's, uh, so just, uh, to, to expound on that, uh, they actually have created like a series of structured products for these hedge funds to enter And the cool thing about Resonate, because as an LP here, as a depositor, you're basically pulling future yield forward, you're able to take some of that potentially and build structured product with it, say like an options straddle around your LP position, and actually hedge against some of that upfront payout to actually hedge against impermanent loss, but also build that option straddle and be able to hedge against fluctuations in the token against the stable it's paired with. Right. So that's some of the cool things that we're working on right now.

And forgive my ignorance, but like, you're what? So, if I'm providing a liquidity position and I'm then distributing it and I'm getting that yield back, I'm just getting the— sorry, the rewards back, right? I'm not getting— it's not like somebody's buying my entire position, or I could do both of those things. I could get yield from Velodrome, let's say, and then also sell— sell off my liquidity position to, as you were saying, hedge, right? If I think that's going to go down, I could sell it to retain, like to capture the value right now.

Yeah, potentially. So, like the basic structure is you've got, let's say, Velodrome, right? They're on that purchaser side. They're basically renting Yield rights to the issuer's principal, right, for the duration of whatever the Resonate pool is set up for. So let's say if it's a year, for that year they're going to rent the yield rights to that, the issuer's principal over the course of that year. After that year is up, that issuer is going to get— they've got that principal FNFT the whole time. After that year, they're going to be able to take their principal out of the FNFT. Uh, and in the meantime, they get that, that upfront payout from Velodrome that, that is, of course, like, has a discount baked into it. So that, that basically means on the purchaser side, you're getting— in this case, Velodrome is getting a boosted yield, right, on their own, uh, native farm.

Okay, I got it.

So, and so for them, that basically looks like emissions reduction, right? Right. So from their, from their point of view, if this was some other entity that was acting as purchaser in that case, they would just be getting a— they would be getting a boosted yield and what they could get by just depositing LP onto Velodrome. Right. So they're getting a fat boosted yield. They're super happy. Velodrome, the reason that they want to fill that role as a purchaser is because one, they're directly incentivizing more sticky liquidity for their own But all that yield, all those tokens that are coming off that principal that they're renting their rights to, all that's just getting cycled back into their treasury. So effectively, from their perspective, they're getting emissions reduction while also being a real commitment from their mercenary liquidity, which isn't the case now. Mercenary liquidity on Velodrome can just come and go as they please.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, I guess one of my concerns would be just kind of protecting myself from impermanent loss when I'm providing liquidity. And then also I'm concerned about like token go down sort of things, right? So that's, that's, I'm just how I'm approaching. Those are my 2 big fears for me to be able to use it. And so if I'm like, oh, this, this, like the yield's cool, but then also I want to, I, you know, I want to walk away positive on this whole deal. So That's just, that's how I find out.

Of course. So, you know, we have a, you know, you've got a range of different types of yield farms out there. Obviously with something like a stable pool, right, you don't have the same risk of impermanent loss. And as I was getting into earlier, you have that upfront payout that you're able to take some of that and build potentially a a position that's, uh, you know, using other products, like say there's this new dPEG, uh, protocol out there, Y2K. I don't know if anybody's familiar, but with Y2K, you know, potentially you could take some of your upfront payout, right, as an LP here. Let's say you're locking, uh, Velo USDC. We'll use that example again. And you want to hedge against, uh, You know, Velo going down against USDC, right? Which would give you a bunch of impermanent loss, right? And that's a problem. So, uh, you know, you could build, uh, either like a perp short or, uh, option, right, that would, uh, hedge you against that, that impermanent loss, basically. Also, I should mention the, the upfront payout itself is a natural hedge, right? So, let's say you are in an ETH/USDC pool, offering ETH/USDC LP, lock that up, an upfront payout in ETH, right? So, if you look at that from a perspective of what your exposure is, if you're exposed to more upside of ETH, right? But you're also exposed to More downside, right? If so, it's more potentially more impermanent loss if ETH was to to go down, right? So

yeah,

in fact, even more impermanent loss than if you had just simply entered that that LP farm, right? And you weren't getting that yield upfront. Now, if you wanted, you could take that upfront payout in ETH and sell all of it for USDC. Well, now you've created a a short hedge against your. against the downturn of the price of ETH, right? And that gives you a dynamic hedge. You know, this upfront payout allows you to dynamically hedge against impermanent loss, right? So that's, that's one cool thing. And, and to finish my thought earlier, say it's a stable pool, uh, USDC/USDT or a 3-curve pool, whatever it might be, you could take some of that upfront payout And you could take, you could take that over to somewhere like Y2K and buy DPEG insurance, which is basically outside of smart contract risk itself is basically your only risk that you're facing, right? So you could, like I said, there's, because Resonate allows you to pull future yield forward, you're able to do something with that capital to protect your principal. Gotcha. Right. And you're able to do that in a capital-efficient manner. You don't need to pull capital from somewhere else to be able to build that product. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes sense. Totally. So, what else is being built on Revest? Are there other things that are coming out, or is Resonate like the main product right now and you're building that? What does biz dev look like for you?

Yeah, it's certainly the main product right now. Uh, but yeah, the, the goal with Revest is, you know, it's gonna have all of its toes in every little pie in town, and you're gonna have other protocols that are gonna build on top of Revest. Some of those might be in-house projects like Resonate, or they might be, uh, external projects that just find, uh, Revest NFTs to be useful. to what they're doing. So, and Revest, it charges a fee to use its technology. So, that's the model of Revest. The goal is to have an ecosystem of related or potentially unrelated protocols that are just building on top of Riva.

Gotcha. So, How's it going then? You were talking about the market, the current market conditions and trying to do BD and Discords being barren and, and, you know, dust. What is it called? I can't even think of it. The dust bowl that goes by. Yeah.

Oh yeah.

The tumbleweed. Yeah. So yeah. What's your strategy right now, Scooter, for, for building, for growing in these conditions?

Yeah, I mean, where do you even start? It's, uh, it's pretty brutal, not gonna lie. But, you know, it's not— no, protocol teams are like very keen to learn about Resonate and to talk to us. And almost every, you know, meeting we have with a team goes really well. They really like what we're doing. They find it super innovative. You know, on the other side of things, on the issuer or on the user side of things, obviously it's a little bit, you know, it's not what it was a year ago. We're not necessarily like our own growth dependent right now on like lots of users locking up into Resonate because we're going after hedge funds and large LPs. And sometimes that looks like we'll go to a protocol We'll meet with them, you know, it goes really well. They'll say, okay, you know, kind of low on users right now. I'm not so sure that we're going to be able to fill the issuer side of things with lots of users that are looking to come get that upfront payout. So we might, you know, send a hedge fund their way that might be interested in locking up that liquidity. Usually they want there to be some sort of risk mitigation, something built into what they're entering. Not always, right? It depends on what their principal is in, right? So yeah, that's what we're working on right now. And that's going really well. Like, even though market has done what it's done recently, and there's been, you know, even some of the funds that we talked to, like I mentioned, they've lost money. On FTX, right? And they're a little bit spooked. But I find that like right now is the perfect time to go after those kind of funds, right? Because you know right now we want to know to convince them that like going full DeFi was always the answer to mitigate some of those risks that they face on centralized exchanges. Yeah, like to answer your question, it's it's. It's going really well. I mean, all things considered, uh, we've like, I don't know, 30, over 30, um, partner protocols at this point. Um, and we're— That's great. Yeah, we're slowly, slowly building up, uh, and getting the word out there to say more like casual DeFi users. That might be interested in locking up liquidity for an upfront payout. So we're slowly expanding that side of things. But I think maybe for the next short while until a lot of these users come back, it may be the case that we're more reliant in terms of growth where we were getting these hedge funds partnered up or— Paired up with protocol treasuries on the other side.

Yeah. And I want— I'm wondering, I mean, because I mean, part of building is locking up liquidity, right? Like you want to be able to have liquidity out there so that your project is still alive and well and people can interact with it on DEXs, right? But I'm wondering if the play— is there like a little person, like a little, like like a fish play and not necessarily a whale play, you know, like more consumer, more, you know, smaller lockups, things like that. I know that it's way nicer to land like a big fish, you know, but in this economy, you'll take anything, right? Any win is a win.

Totally understand. Do you have your screen share right now?

Uh, no, and I don't think Stages handles that.

Okay, sorry. So

you can drop a screenshot in the chat.

Yeah, sure. So, so let me do that. So this is what— this is one of, uh, pools we got right now on Resonate. This is a, uh, Stake-to-Earn Curve pool. We've got a hedge fund lined up on the issuer side and actually our CEO Rob on the purchaser side. So I'm trying to find my screenshot here. And as you're going to see, it's earning quite an impressive Yield. I just dropped that in the chat there. So if you look up at the top left, that's showing you what the underlying yield farm is, what the current APY is, what the current estimated APY is. This is for a 2-week lock, right? So we've got a fund that's coming in, they're locking up for 2 weeks, and they're going to get 1%. Upfront, and they plan on coming back every 2 weeks and rolling that 1% into more staked Yearn Curve and compounding in that way. They're looking at something like under 30% annualized. Oh, they're very happy with that because they get a fixed yield, get it upfront, and don't have to worry about interest rate fluctuations. Now, maybe casual user isn't as interested in the fixed yield aspect and hedging against interest rate fluctuations. And if you see here, I think when they had entered this 10 or 11 days ago, yield was, I think, about 48%, let's say. It's gone up quite a bit since then, right? So on the other side, on the purchaser side, on the get boosted yield side, now since they entered this deal, since they were matched with that hedge fund, their yield that's being pushed through YieldFNFT has gone up from what they expected and what they had based their upfront payout on. They're actually up to like, you see here, 106%. Um, APY right now, and that's a 2-week— I mean, that's a, that's a return. That's not—

Wait, how are they up to 100? Because— and, and Scooter, can I put this into the podcast notes, or do— or, or you don't want this distributed, this, this thing, this JPEG?

Oh no, whatever you like. Yeah, no, that's fine.

Yeah. Okay, so listener, podcast listener, look at your notes to see the screenshot that we're talking about so you, you know. But you said So right now it's a, it's an estimated APY of 57%. That's if you didn't get the early payout, right? That's what the estimate is. That's variable. It can change. But you can get for the next— if you lock it for 14 days, you get 1%. So that's 2 weeks. So that over the year, it's going to be like 25%, right? 52, uh, so it's 20, 26%, let's say, uh, APY. That's awesome. That 26% APY is better than anything you're going to get at a bank or whatever, you know. So this is not financial advice. Yeah, yeah. But so you— but you just said 100% APY. What was that regarding?

Yeah, so on the purchaser side, right, your APY, right, your ROI I should say, not dependent upon what the underlying yield farm is. It's dependent upon what you pay out, right, versus how much you get back. Right. So, in this case, the purchaser here is paying out 1.06%. They're getting back, it's a little over 2%, right? So, that difference is about 100%, which represents their ROI over the course of that 2 weeks.

Oh, got it.

Right. So, it's a very boosted yield, right? Got it.

It's

very— yeah, it's— I don't know what that is annualized, but it's a lot.

Yeah.

But you have to understand, this is a market, right? So, Maybe here in 4 days or whenever this fund is ready to lock up again for another 2 weeks, you might say, hey, you guys made out like a bandit. How about you pay me out a little bit more upfront? Because that underlying yield farm, the APY has gone up, they might be able to justify that, right? But it's a market on both sides, issuers and purchasers, they can You know, come to an agreement on like what that upfront payout ought to be. And they can reconvene on that every 2 weeks. We kind of like those shorter-dated pools because it allows for some optionality, right?

Yeah, no, for sure. And so like, if you take the early payout, you're getting 25% interest, or you're getting 25% on that APY if you annualize it, right? And then the, the other, the, the, the, the payouter, the person, the party giving the payout is making double the yield. So they're getting 25% too. Yeah. But, and you're doing all this in the screenshot, Scooter. You're just putting your, your, your Curve in there, your Yearn Curve, and you're putting your USDC right there. That's where you're adding it, right? You're connecting your wallet, you're adding it. That you're putting the liquidity right there. Is that how you interact with this?

Yeah. So, so the issue—

Like you're not coming with a liquidity position. You're, you're, you're providing liquidity right here.

Well, in this case, you would need staked Yearn Curve, or I shouldn't say staked. You need your Yearn Curve first. You would go, you would go attain that and then bring that to Resonate. And then our system is just going to back-end Earn's staking system, right? So we're going to go deposit that and that'll start earning the yield, right? One more thing I want to share here is the cool things you can do. And this is what this, this particular hedge fund is doing. Jason, to This principal position. They are also good.

I feel like a screenshot is incoming.

All right, yeah, I'm, I'm trying to track it down.

Oh yeah,

this is really cool because this is, this is really only possible from a capital efficiency perspective because of the nature of Resonate, of being able to pull your yield forward basically. I guess in that sense, it resembles— if I could give an example, maybe something that people out there are familiar with, kind of like Alchemix's system.

Okay. We know and love Alchemix.

So, so this institution, what they're doing is, you know, they're locking up that yearn curve, but they're also opening a 1x short on any exchange they like. We recommend dYdX, um, because of the more decentralized nature of that protocol compared to like Binance. Uh, well, it's wherever they like, uh, and that's going to give them, uh, hedge. It basically gives them a delta-neutral position. They're also earning annualized— here it says about 27.5% on top of that. Uh, that's the kind of stuff that funds— this stuff really When I tell them this, when I show them like what we can do, you know, this is getting to the level of returns that they're expecting with their more like traditional strategies. Now they're getting this in DeFi and they're also getting these protections against the movement of the value of their principal position, right? So this stuff really speaks to me.

Okay, so we're looking at like a 27.5% fixed rate APR on USD. And, uh, and so we can also include this in the, in the podcast description notes for the listener to peruse.

Yeah, no, this is like, uh, this is some really cool stuff. So, so yeah, the, uh, this is just One example, one pool, uh, you know, maybe this rate will change, uh, every 2 weeks. That's kind of good, right? That's, that's a true market. You know, purchasers and issuers, they're going to come to an agreement on this Yearn Curve pool every 2 weeks, right? And it's gonna, uh, that's going to— and you could actually have somebody come in and start a different pool. Right now that wants to offer a little bit more, right? And steal away that, uh, you know, that issuer from like another pool. Oh, so yeah, we're gonna— as we get more value locked into Resonate, uh, and more players on both sides of the deals, we're gonna have, uh, we're gonna start seeing like issuers and purchasers like reconvening, like rapidly to determine what that payout should be. Right.

What's that next level for you? Because right now it's like $1.3 million locked. But what do you, what are you trying to get to? Like, what's— so I could say like for PoolTogether, if we could get $250 million locked, we can start seeing like $100,000 prizes, not daily, but like, you know, some, some frequency. Right. What's that for you guys?

Oh, it's in terms of like what our goals are as far as TVL or—

Yeah, like does that change anything? Does that allow you to like, uh, does that free you up? What, like, yeah, I'm just saying, I'm just trying to think about like what— right now we're in a resource-scarce environment, so what if that wasn't the case? What if resources were abundant? What could you do?

Well, The market depth for just the partners that we have right now. So just like potentially, like, if all of their liquidity was to be ran through Resonate, like what that would look like as far as TVL for us, it's pretty huge. I mean, right now we're partnered up with Lido and Alchemix and Yearn. Helidrome and GMX and, you know, 20 other protocols. The market depth on just those from the current partners is— I want to say I actually have the number— it's like, uh, $50 billion. That's it. It's $50 billion.

Yeah.

So it's a huge market, uh, potentially. Uh, I don't know what kind of penetration we're gonna get, but, uh, the market is gigantic.

Yeah, I mean, I could see, like, why, why don't you have the resonate button on, on your liquidity pool? You know, like, why isn't that— why can't I just cash out right now, get, get that yield?

Yeah, no, and, and that's where And one of the things we're doing right now is working on making it easy for protocols to make that Resonate option like more obvious on their own front ends. So, uh, you know, incorporating iframes that are gonna basically bring Resonate, that Resonate pull that's relevant, onto their front end, right? So that's one of the things that we're working on. Also on our, our front end, we want to eventually have a, a Zapper that will allow you to say like, do not have to bounce around from front end to front end. If you want to take some Yearn Curve to put in this Resonate pool, could do that.

Exactly.

That right from our front end, right? So it's a one-stop shop.

Exactly. Yeah, there's a service called— I'm gonna have them on the podcast, uh, maybe in January called Crossmint. And I had this experience where I wanted to buy a Solana NFT, but I didn't have enough SOL, and it allowed me to take my Ethereum and my ETH and be able to purchase it. So the more that we can abstract away and take away friction, like, oh, I don't have that specific, very specific thing that I need to use the product. If we can one-button it, if we can just, yeah, we'll figure that out for you. And also, anytime that happens, I feel like I'm getting scammed. So be able to make it convenient to me and be very clear about how much I'm paying for that convenience, I think crypto would be— Web3 would be a better place. And I love that idea of just being able to be like, give me that option to get my yield right now for the liquidity position that I'm putting in for the next 2 weeks or something like that. And I love that also short timeframes for somebody who's ADD and like doesn't want to commit to something more than a month in advance or something. That's also very helpful. You got so many markets here, Scooter.

Yeah, so many ways to go. Because, you know, just the basic, uh, just the basic arrangement that we've set up, uh, you know, all Resonate is, is a yield futures protocol. But, you know, because we have a certain— because we use basically, uh, these FNFTs represent, you know, principal and yield. We're able to do things that other protocols, you know, our quote-unquote competition, uh, you know, other protocols that are, say, uh, offering fixed yields, they take a variable yield and make a fixed yield product out of it. They're usually incorporating some ERC-20, trying to shoehorn in Some sort of ERC-20-based system. The problem with that, uh, FNFTs, our system doesn't have, is that basically cannot do rolling maturities, right? So you have, uh, you know, an ERC-20 that represents— oh, it's fungible, right? It represents all of those positions in that pool. And so that pool, in order to like do the liquidity right and the incentivization right, Basically need all of those positions within that pool to mature at the same time, right? But with NFTs, by representing— basically by using the non-fungible to represent the non-fungible, because we think the way it ought to be, you're able to do things you couldn't do before. You know, you know, Pendle, APY, and some of these other operations— nothing against those guys, but trying to shoehorn in the ERC-20, it really makes it impossible to do The things that that resonate allows for. When we match an issuer and a purchaser in a pool, those principal and yield F N F T's that are then produced, those are completely unique to that underlying position. They have their own maturity date. They're not. They're not. You don't need well, and the cool thing about this, you don't need to as a protocol incentivize any liquidity. Around a specific pool, around that specific position, uh, because it has its own unique maturity date.

Yeah.

And this is just like, it opens the door to like so much. It just was not possible with ERC-20 system.

Yeah. And I'm not kidding. I mean, I would love to see this for PoolTogether where somebody makes a PoolTogether deposit. They lock it up, you know, with this FNFT, and then they get a portion of the— their proposed prizes, you know. Um, and then whoever's issuing that gets the full prize, you know. So there's a way to do that where it's like, it's pretty cool.

They don't just get the full prize, right? They don't just get the underlying yield, they get the difference between their upfront payout and that underlying yield, right?

Oh yeah, that's right.

Yeah, so there's going to be a boosted yield over Had they just entered, uh, the prize pool on their own, right, for that over that duration. So yeah, it's, it's a good arrangement for both sides. Oh, as long as that upfront payout is like what it ought to be, and it's a market, so they're gonna, they're gonna determine that, the issuer and the purchaser. And yeah, uh, it's just playing off, off the time preferences really of the 2 parties.

Well, definitely it's good to see Chris K drop by, DeFi Donut. We're talking, we're getting some— Chris gave me my intro into DeFi and now I'm talking liquidity pool, financial NFT position stuff with Scooter. So I want to thank Chris for the foundational stuff. And Scooter, I really— let's keep talking about how we can do more with this. with PoolTogether and Godspeed in this market, brother. This is, uh, we're gonna make it. We're gonna make it. I know. And I totally get you guys building and I'm serious about that, uh, Resonate. I just love that, uh, I want more tokens later or I want tokens now. I want to integrate that into most sites in DeFi.

No, I'm super excited. And, you know, after this we can Perhaps set up a meeting or something to do like a discovery call with our teams and see if, if, uh, it doesn't make sense to have a resonate pool for, for PoolTogether. And, uh,

totally,

that, that might be really cool. So

that's how biz dev is done, baby. Yeah.

So, yeah, you guys are getting to see, uh, getting to see it live.

That's right. That's right. Well, thanks everybody for joining us. Uh, thanks Scooter for being here. We'll put those We'll put that alpha, those screenshots in the podcast description. Denicio Del Toro edits the podcast and does the descriptions and the graphics and everything. And I just show up and I gab with people like Scooter. So Scooter, thanks for being here. Thanks for talking to us about Revest Finance and Resonate. And we'll keep talking.

Thanks again. I really appreciate you having me on and, uh, looking forward to, to working together potentially. Be great if there's any, uh, synergy here.

Very cool. All right. Well, that's it.

All right, everybody. Take care.

Thanks for listening to the PoolTogether Community Podcast. You can visit pooltogether.com to deposit, and we'd love to hear what you thought about today's episode. So visit the PoolTogether Discord and let us know.