PoolTogether Community Podcast #58 with Stader

This is the PoolTogether Community Podcast. PoolTogether is the world's number one no-loss prize savings account. You can visit pooltogether.com to deposit.

You're listening to the PoolTogether Community Podcast, and I'm your host, Millie Yearley, aka Tim, aka Hot Mike. And I'm so pumped here, uh, again to be talking with my friend and yours, Vibin from Stader about all of the cool things that are happening over there. And so, welcome, sir. Welcome.

Hey, thanks a lot, Mundi, for this opportunity. We are super excited to talk a little bit about what we are building with the PoolTogether community. Thanks again for the opportunity. Look forward to it.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And just for those who— you've been on the podcast before, so repeat guest, we don't have a lot of those. In fact, I think you might be either, I'll say, second repeat guest like this. So, this is great. But could we just do like a quick intro of Stader and what it is, then just who you are and how you got involved with it.

Absolutely happy to. And thanks for the opportunity to do this for the second time. Really appreciate it. And we love talking to the community. Perfect. So I'll just start with a little bit about Stader, right? So we are a multi-chain liquid staking protocol. So we have been, we are currently live on 6 chains, Polygon, BNB, Fantom, Hedera, Near, And we are also launching soon on Ethereum. And that's one of the things that we wanted to talk to the community about. So we wanna talk a little bit about what we are bringing to the ETH staking ecosystem itself. Our goal at Stader is to help onboard the next billion users to staking. We feel that staking is a very powerful win-win opportunity whereby people can help secure the networks that they do use and love. And our job is to really make it simple and secure for users. and also give them the best of staking plus DeFi anywhere we are live. And what we also try and do everywhere that we are live is to try and help enable decentralizations of the network that we are on. So everywhere we are, the type of validators we choose is primarily focused on enabling decentralization of these networks. So that's really in short what we do. We started and launched our first product in November 2021. Since then, we have had a crazy ride where I think at our peak we touched a billion dollars in TVL. And we currently have, despite the bear market, we have seen some strong growth and we are right now at around $150 million in TVL across the 6 chains that we are live on.

Well, congratulations on that. That's great. That's great. So what, why stake ETH, you know, and then like, how should we do it? Should everyone stake ETH? What could you like explain, like liquid staking versus just staking staking? Does it involve meat? What's going on here?

Yeah, I think staking on ETH is quite interesting, right? I think one of the, I mean, one of the first stats is that today close to $20 billion of ETH is already staked, right? So there's a large number of people already staking ETH, but compared to the overall size of ETH, obviously only 13% of all circulating ETH has been staked, right? Just to kind of recap what staking and how it helps the ETH ecosystem, essentially, as most people might be aware, ETH transitioned from proof of work to a proof of stake mechanism when the merge happened, right? So the primary security of ETH network is now via proof of stake, where essentially every validator that gets a chance to attest and propose blocks actually has to have a certain amount of ETH stake. So typically 32 ETH per validator, right? By having this 32 ETH, what happens is that users are closely aligned with the network they're guarding in the first place. And in case they have, let's say they perform poorly or they go offline or they actually break protocol rules and perhaps do slashable offenses, then they could end up getting slashed and lose a part of the 32 ETH they stake as well. Right. So that's kind of how ETH keeps its security. In exchange for kind of helping secure the network, people also get rewards on an ongoing basis, right? Currently on a blue chip token like ETH, people can earn 5% rewards with staking, right? And since the merge, execution layer rewards have also been added to the kitty of stakers with MEV as well as priority fees now going to stakers as well. So it's a good time to be looking at staking very closely. Now talking a little bit about plain staking versus liquid staking, right? So typically what happens in plain staking is you are staking directly with the native contract of the network. And at that point in time, the ETH that you stake, for example, is then with the native contract and you can't use it elsewhere. So the only thing your ETH is doing is helping secure the network and you earn staking yield on it. But however, you might not be able to use it in DeFi Or any other place because this is actually like kind of kept with the validator, right? Now this is where liquid staking comes in. It's a very simple concept where we provide a representative token or a derivative token, and all this liquid stake token represents is your stake Ethereum assets, right? So if you come and stake 100 ETH with us at the beginning, for example, you would get 100 ETHX, which is our liquid stake token. Now you can now take ETHX and start using it in DeFi. Meanwhile, the Ethereum that you deposited through us into the Ethereum staking contract will continue to earn staking yield. So therefore, you've suddenly solved for the problem of only being able to participate in staking. And with liquid staking and this representative token, you're now getting staking yield, right? Which ETHX kind of continues to get in the background from the staked Ethereum that's earning rewards. Plus you can use ETHX in many DeFi protocols, right? The typical place could be, you could go and farm it, farm with it in a liquidity pool, or you could use it to do leverage staking. You can use it as collateral on money markets like Aave, Euler, Compound, et cetera. So that's the objective. So essentially the idea behind liquid staking is to provide a representative asset whereby users can get both staking yield as well as participate in DeFi and don't have to choose between the two.

Okay. So you started with MaticX, right? And now you're on ETH. Why ETH now? Why, why not just like live in the safe Polygon bubble? Why, why are you going big leagues now?

Yeah, I think we've had a good run on Polygon so far. So we have, I think, close to $45 million plus in TVL, which is about 40-45% of all liquid stake market share on Polygon. So we've had a good run with MaticX so far. And the idea is really that we have now live on Not just Polygon, we are also live on BNB, on Fantom, on Hedera, on Near, and Terra 2.0, because Terra is where we originally started as Tether, right? So as a service to the community, we have kind of shifted and are live on Terra 2.0 as well. But those are 6 chains that we've already been live on over the last year, year and a half we've been building. And we've now kind of, I think one of the interesting things is that Polygon also wants to scale ETH. So we wanna participate in that journey and see how we can contribute more to ETH. I'll talk a little bit more as we kind of talk a little further about some gaps that we saw in the ETH staking ecosystem itself, right? So one of the things that we didn't want to do is actually just, obviously Ethereum is the big leagues, so we didn't want to come and participate just because Ethereum is where a lot of the staking action is, a lot of the DeFi action is. We wanted to ensure that we'd be able to bring something truly value adding to the ETH ecosystem. And that's why it took us a little bit of time to understand where is it that we can really contribute as well. So that's why we've kind of taken the time to understand what we can bring to the ETH community. And I'll talk a little bit more about it soon, which is why we clearly saw a few challenges that were unsolved that we could perhaps work on. And that's how our ETHX token has been designed.

So When you say it increases in value, right? So you get yield from your staked ETH, correct?

Correct.

That's correct.

So the way we set it up is like your typical—

How is that, how is that distributed? Does it, does it grow? Yeah. Grow in amount or is there like some, like where you, you, yeah. So if you could just kind of walk through the mechanics of how it would work to stake ETH with, through Stader.

Absolutely. I think so. This is, this will be a standard ERC-20 token. And it'll be a cToken model. So I think some of the cTokens that people would be familiar with is perhaps the YV tokens, the Yearn Vault tokens, for example. What happens there is your token actually appreciates in value as yield comes in, right? In this case, for example, let's start with 100 ETH and you get 100 ETHx on day 1. Now we continue to earn staking yield on this 100 ETH that's deposited to the staking contract. So if you take the current run rate, let's say this 100 ETH will become 105 ETH. Now what will happen is you'll still hold the 100 ETHX, but it now represents 105 ETH with the native staking contract. So the value of each ETHX will now become 1.05. So that's what I say when, when I say it's a cToken, essentially it cumulatively continues to grow with respect to the token, right? So in this case, for example, ETHX will go to 1.05 and then keep growing as well. So typical to like your Yearn World token that people might be familiar with, for example.

Okay. So, so the amount of tokens is not going up, it's the value of the tokens that goes up, correct?

Correct. Correct. And therefore people are not getting more and more tokens. So in some jurisdictions, for example, obviously I'm not a tax expert, but it's also more tax efficient to have a token like this which grows in value and doesn't produce more tokens, right? So the number of tokens you received will be the same as when you stake, but the value of these tokens keep going up over time. And this is great from tax perspective in a certain set of jurisdictions. It's also easier to integrate into DeFi natively, right? A lot of rebasing tokens have to be wrapped for certain protocols to be able to integrate them. So this model of token is also much more easy to integrate into DeFi protocols, which is one of the positives as well. And obviously if you use it as collateral, the tokens itself continue to grow in value. Thereby, I mean, you get slightly higher leverage, right? In terms of when you use it, the LTV keeps improving as the value of the token keeps growing.

Got it. Okay. And this is all mentioned in the white paper for the ETH liquid staking, which I noticed that like it's, it says learn more on the Stader site right now. So it's not available right now, but we can read the white paper currently, correct?

Correct. Correct. We have the light paper live for Ethex. We have focused a lot on what is the set of challenges that we are addressing with Ethex and the key features of Ethex. So that's kind of what we have tried to talk about. I can kind of talk a little bit more about that, right? So essentially when we looked at the ETH market, what we really found was that there is a high concentration of ETH staked with a few entities, right? I think the top 3 entities actually account for close to 50% of all ETH staked, right? So very few actual entities, whether it's protocols or centralized exchanges, control a lot of the Ethereum that's getting staked, right? So this obviously opens up the network to different types of risk, right? Whether it's risk of censorship or a governance attack, et cetera. So it's very important that The staking that's happening on Ethereum is much more diversified. That's one of the key things that we want to contribute to right now within this 50%. Obviously the top liquid staking protocol itself has 90% market share within liquid staking. And it also happens to delegate to permissioned operators, which means not anyone can kind of run nodes for them. It has to be a whitelisted set of only 30 operators who can currently run nodes for them. Right. So that we found as a little bit of a challenge when it comes to really helping ETH become decentralized. Also, the other thing we found was that there are obviously protocols that are working purely with permissionless node operators, but they've kind of struggled to really keep up with user demand. Even when they sell at a premium, for example, they're not able to have enough supply of node operators in a permissionless manner that will allow for more ETH to be staked via them, right? The other thing we also found was that some of the LSDs beyond liquid staking derivatives beyond, for example, the top protocol don't have meaningful DeFi acceptance, right? So all the top protocols don't yet accept them either as collateral or to mint stablecoins, et cetera. So, which means that if users want to sometimes choose and really support decentralization of Ethereum, and therefore choose a more decentralized stake derivative, that means they have to kind of give up a little bit of the DeFi yield that would've been possible with, let's say, a more centralized liquid staking protocol. And this is precisely the kind of challenge that we wanna solve, right? So that's what we found, and that's why we thought that there's definitely merit for more people to try and help solve for this problem, given that decentralization is at the heart of what Ethereum staking is set up to be.

Okay. So like one of my goals, one of my aspirational goals is to be a home staker. Like how awesome would that be if I'm able to just like run my little mainframe, staking that ETH, keeping things tight and secure? Is there any way that like me as a home staker can participate with this Stader liquid staking?

Oh, absolutely. I'm glad to hear that, Millie. So look forward to making this happen for you. So anyone can run nodes permissionlessly for Stader from day 1, right? So from day 1, anyone can permissionlessly run nodes for Stader. Now, what we've also found is that, and Millie, just to kind of expand on that, right? One of the things that we wanted to do is therefore bring a more decentralized protocol to Ethereum and help the network, right? And as part of that, Homestakers will be the backbone of the node operations on ETHX. And not just that, we will have a bonding requirement of just 4 ETH for people who want to run nodes for Stader. Typically this number is 16 ETH and some improvements are, uh, on the way for certain protocols. It could become 8 ETH, et cetera. But we want to ensure that there is the most limited amount of friction for anyone wanting to run nodes from home, right? So essentially with Stader, instead of the 30 ETH that you'll have to put up if you're a solo staker or the 16 or 8 ETH you will have to do with other protocols. With Stader, you just need 4 ETH. So we did like extensive data analysis. And what we found was that the way ETH staking is set up, it's supposed— it's set up to be non-severe, right? In how it kind of punishes non-malicious performance issues. So we kind of simulated all the key tail risks and found that 4 ETH will be more than sufficient to protect user funds. So we thought that's the right number to go for. This is much more capital efficient for home stakers, and it's also much less of a barrier from an entry standpoint for anyone who wants to stake from home. So I hope that kind of makes you excited, like the fact that you could now start staking from home with just 4 ETH to begin with, with Stader.

That's so the, all I need is 4 ETH and then I need like the technical requirements to like have a home node. That's, that makes it way more attainable. I'm really excited now. We're going to have to talk afterwards. I want to figure this out. That's very cool. But, but then, so with the 4 ETH, right? Because generally with 32 ETH, that's the, that's the requirement for home staking generally. How are things kept secure? Because 4 ETH is not as expensive as 32 ETH.

Yeah, absolutely. So what happens really is that with 32 ETH, Users are generally, the homestakers are running nodes just for themselves, right? They're actually not operating nodes for others. They're running nodes themselves because they're fulfilling the entire 32 ETH requirement. Now what we have seen other, so this is what we have seen, right? Either protocols then work with permissioned operators who have like, who are professional setups and therefore have a very curated whitelisted set of people only who can run nodes for them. So these will be experienced institutions, et cetera, that run nodes for them, right? And they don't allow anyone to run nodes. And the protocols which are more decentralized and allow anyone to run nodes have had a high requirement on the amount of ETH that they've asked these permissionless node operators to put up. So what we found was the way it's set up is that we pair 4 ETH from the home staker with 28 ETH from user funds, right? And marry this together and this goes as 32 ETH. into the Beacon Chain as a deposit, for example. Now, the way we are protecting user funds is that this is used as a bond, right? Because the node operator is really responsible for actually running the node as per the protocol rules and actually performing well, keeping it online, et cetera. Now, therefore, when performance issues come up and because of that, there is, let's say, a small change, a small negative change to the amount of overall ETH that was deposited to the network, It first comes off the 4 ETH that the node operator themselves have deposited. Thereby, node operators actually stand to lose, let's say, a percentage of like any penalties that they suffer directly from their own bond. So user funds are unaffected and the node operator funds are what get affected. Therefore, there's a lot of incentive for the node operators to actually remain performant, right? Which is why you're allowing, you are able to allow anyone to kind of get involved and run nodes because essentially they're also strongly incentivized not to perform poorly and lose the for ETH that they've really deposited. On top of that, really what we did was also looked at different conditions and how this for ETH actually is held. So I'll go into a little bit of that, right? So how can this user funds can be at risk, right? That's the question. So firstly, poor node operator performance can be a problem. So what we did was actually we looked at other protocols where permissionless node operators are already participating and took the worst 20 percentile of node operators, looked at their performance and simulated for various use cases. And what we found was that, for example, typically their full uptime is like 89% where they're doing everything accurately and in time, et cetera. And even with that level of performance, which is the worst 20, bottom 20 percentile, performers, I think even over a 6-month period, this hardly makes a dent, right? So I think they would've lost only up to about 0.5 ETH perhaps, which will all go from the 4 ETH, right? So even if node operators perform really poorly, those use cases are typically protected. We also looked at other scenarios, for example, slashing. So what happens when a typical slashing event happens is that you lose 1 ETH right away, then there's a correlation penalty after 18 days. So in total on Ethereum, there have only been about 220 slashing events in the entire history of, from the time ETH staking started to now. So that's very low, right? There are 500K active validators. They've been running for so many epochs and there's only about 220 slashing incidents that have happened. And which means that these tend to be very isolated slashing incidents. So you lose approximately 1 ETH, which is again covered very clearly by the 4 ETH, comfortably covered as well. Even if there is a slashing, which is, let's say, like, I think StakeDAO has had an incident where a large chunk of their validators actually got slashed. Even if you take a case like that, for example, and see a similar scenario where the correlation penalty is a little higher, even that is comfortably covered under the 4 ETH. So then we looked at, for example, a different condition where let's say the chain is not able to finalize. Then what happens is the penalties are ramped up by Ethereum as a protocol because then you can get to finality faster by kicking out people who are fully offline or not performing, et cetera. So even under those conditions, when with an activity leak, right, the penalties kind of are ratcheted up by the ETH here. If we take even the worst performing, the bottom 20 percentile node operators like I mentioned, even that is like well short of the 4 ETH required. So what we did was took the worst performing set of players, right, actually, and looked at how they perform even in the most adverse network conditions and some of the very rare occurrences that could happen on Ethereum and found that under all these cases, it comfortably is less than or equal to the 4 ETH bond that we are actually taking from node operators. So therefore, user funds are protected at all times, right? And that's why, because of the way ETH staking is designed, so well to be very non-severe in the punishments it meets out to people who are offline. For example, you might be surprised to know the ROI to turn positive, like, or the performance needed to turn a positive yield on Ethereum is just more than like, just, I think shy of 40% uptime, right? So if you're anywhere between 45% type of uptime, you're always making a profit, which is like—

Oh, wow.

And that's very unique to where Ethereum is set up, right? I think most other protocols, if you're obviously with anyone who has penalty mechanisms, et cetera, what you'll find is that that level of performance will be very harsh in terms of the, what happens to your stake. But Ethereum is set up so beautifully that I think you run like 45%, 50% of the time you have uptime, which is like a lot of room, right? You still turn a profit. So that's really what we've tried to bring to our design of what the bond needs to be, right? Truly reflect how the staking, like, protocol itself is designed and kind of pass that on to node users while fully protecting users. So that's how we came to the 4 ETH. So we did this analysis in collaboration with SSV, also had other key members of the community who have run nodes for a long time, like staken, even rated, et cetera, look at the methodology and provide feedback to us.

Okay. A couple more questions here. There's a DVT pool in your multi-pool architecture. What is, what is that? How is that important?

Yeah. So let me kind of talk a little bit about Stader's pool architecture system itself. So I think I've spoken about homestakers who will be the backbone, right? So we want this to be the dominant node operator set for us. In addition to this, one of the things we have seen is that, like I touched upon earlier, this is going to be a journey, right? For homestakers and fully permissionless node operators alone to support let's say multiple billions of dollars in staked assets. It's going to be a journey and we want to do that journey alongside Homestakers, right? Which is why we, from day one, we want to start and we want to make improvements like the 4 ETH bond requirement, et cetera. That'll be really powerful catalysts in this journey. But we are also aware that we are not ready today to have billions of dollars just go through Homestakers. So what we are going to do is complement this with a multi-pool architecture. So there'll always also be a permissioned node operator set which will help with scalability and complement the supply that Homestakers will provide, right? So this will act as augmentation of the supply that we have available so that users don't have to necessarily go to more centralized protocols just because they're not able to deposit with us. That's one. Number 2, what we want to do is actually improve both of these pools with DVT, which is distributed validator technology. So this will be the 3rd pool that we want to set up once that technology actually stabilizes. I'll talk a little bit about DVT shortly, but essentially then what Stader is gonna do is have a multi-pool architecture. So there are different types of pools which provide node operations for our users with the permissionless pool and the homestaker pool basically, which will be the central part of it. And we'll complement that supply with permissioned pools, which helps with scalability. Then once DVT as a technology matures, we want to have DVT as a a core pool as well. So I'll talk a little bit about what distributed validator technology does. So essentially in distributed validator technology, instead of a single node operator running a validator, today what happens is if there is a validator, there is a single node operator who's running the validator with, and they hold the validator private keys and that's how they run the nodes, right? So what distributed validator technology allows us to do is instead of a single node operator actually running a validator, there can be a cluster of node operators who can actually run a single validator, right? Which means there can be multiple node operators who can trustlessly collaborate and actually run a single validator. And they do this by actually splitting the keys in a manner that all of them need to, a majority of them need to say the same thing for the attestation to actually happen. So they're almost building in a lot of redundancy. By now making sure that a majority of the node operators have to agree on what happens. So even if you take a case, for example, where a single node operator in the cluster of node operators is offline, it hardly affects the validator itself. So the validator will continue to be online. So what DVT allows is it reduces a lot of your tail risks in a very meaningful manner. So the slashing risk, the risks of being offline and having very poor performance actually reduced by orders of magnitude with distributed validator technology. And that is something that we are kind of early adopters of. We are already on testnet with SSV Network. We are also talking to other DVT protocols as well. And the idea is once their technology actually stabilizes on mainnet, we will work together with them and also have a DVT pool in which they can again be permissionless operators. And because a lot of the risk to user funds have been strongly Reduced because of DVT, we could even perhaps reduce the bond more significantly from the 4 ETH as well. And at that point in time, it'll be so simple and so low capital barriers to actually run nodes and without negatively impacting the security of user funds. Why? Because the probability of slashing, the probability of penalties, et cetera, has been reduced so significantly because of DVT where multiple node operators will come together to run every single validator. Right. And perhaps we could pair up a set of permissioned and permissionless operators together in a single validator to make this even more robust, for example. So I think we could do a lot more in terms of adding to the resilience of our node operator layer, including actually lower bond requirement for homestakers once this technology stabilizes without putting any user funds at higher risk.

I mean, and that's getting closer to Vitalik's node from your phone dream, right? I don't know. That sounds pretty cool. So with liquid staking, there's this dream to have it be able— you could use it in DeFi, like across DeFi. So that hasn't been realized yet. How is ETHX going to realize that dream of, yeah, you could use this in DeFi? anywhere, wherever you want.

Yeah, I think, well, maybe I think like we spoke about earlier, right? I think there are very few LSDs which have gotten meaningful DeFi acceptance, right? I think except maybe the top liquid staking protocol, the rest of them have really struggled to have like full-blown DeFi ecosystem, right? So this is where actually we wanted to lean on our experience building this across 6 chains. So one of the places that our experience actually building comes to very nice impact is actually on the DeFi side, right? Because what we have done is across exchange, token after token, like liquid staking derivative after liquid staking derivative, we have built out full-blown DeFi on the respective chains, right? We have 40+ protocols today who are already partnered with Stader and they collectively hold across chains about $9 billion in TVL, right? If you take those protocols, they're that large actually, right? And I'll just give you some examples, right? On MaticX, for example, Our primary pool is with Balancer, right? So we have like a $12 to $15 million pool which has minimum impermanent loss and has deep liquidity where people can swap out MATICX for MATIC right away. And on the back of that and the Chainlink oracle that we got for MATICX, we are also listed on Aave, for example. So we are live on Aave v3 on Polygon. So users can use MATICX as collateral, use borrow stables with it or borrow MATIC with it and loop it as well. And we didn't just stop there. For example, we then went ahead and tied up with Kian, which is an automated strategies protocol, for example. And we have automated this entire leverage taking loop for users on Polygon, right? So I think that's the kind of full-blown set of partnerships that we wanna bring to the table, right? Similarly, people can now use MATICX and mint MYE, right? So people can use MATICX and trade it as options. Right? They could sell call options, buy call options, right? Sell puts, et cetera, of MATICX itself. And they could participate in DeFi option vaults with MATICX. So that's kind of the journey we have had on most of the other chains. And what we have seen is that there are very specific requirements that DeFi protocols actually need to ensure that the addition is a robust addition to their ecosystem and is kind of value accretive to all their users. And It all starts with firstly having deep liquidity for your liquid staking token, right? So a lot of the protocols we found have like typically not had that base there. So they're starting to work on it and we are seeing strong improvement in the level of liquidity that many of the LSDs are now starting to have. But that's the starting point that we will, with Ethex, get to very quickly, right? So we'll have meaningful liquidity for Ethex ETH so that users can swap out of their ETHX position and move to ETH right away. We will follow that up with the Chainlink oracle, right? As soon as our ETHX token goes live on DEXs, we will actually couple that with the work beginning to get a Chainlink oracle. Now, when you have these 2, essentially getting into money markets then becomes the logical next step. And it's right for them as well, because if you look at it, for any token to be usable as collateral, they should be able to liquidate in case someone has borrowed too much and is not able to adjust his position to the right LTV, right? So it means that people should be able to take these tokens and get it back in terms of the asset that they first deposited, right? So they should be able to liquidate these assets into any other common token, right? So it could be ETH or USDC, et cetera. So ETHX therefore has to have liquidity and for them to know the right price at all times, similarly, they need the Chainlink oracle, right? So this combination can then get you into money markets, can get you into overcollateralized stablecoins, can also get you into DeFi option vaults, et cetera. So I think that's the starting point. And this is the same journey that we've done chain after chain. And we have a dedicated BD team that's quite experienced and done this on multiple chains. And we'll do the same for ETHX as well. And the good thing is, I think we have a little bit of experience working with core ETH protocols as part of our journey on Polygon, especially, right, where we have worked with Balancer, With Aave, with Chidao, and a few other protocols as well.

Well, thank you so much, Vimal, for being here and talking to us about Stader. I'm really pumped about that, that home staking at a lower level for, you know, people without 32 ETH like me. So that's exciting. And so, you know, would love to have you back on the podcast when you get a new feature. When is this going to be launched?

Yeah, so we are looking at Early March for this, Millie. So that's when we're expecting to launch. So right in time for Shanghai.

Eat Denver. I love it.

Yeah, eat Denver as well. So we'll be there at Eat Denver. So you should come.

That's right. Cool, cool. Awesome. Well, it was great talking to you, sir, and we'll talk soon and I'll be following along on Twitter.

Thank you so much, Millie, and thanks for the opportunity. Thanks everyone for listening in.

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