187: How to Succeed in Wholesale: Expert Tips and Tricks with Guest Katie Hunt

Welcome back to the Professional Creative Podcast. I'm Bonnie and today we're diving into the world of product based businesses and the power of wholesaling with an incredible guest. I can't wait to introduce you to. This podcast is for you. Whether you are an artist, a maker, a designer, today's conversation is going to give you some incredible insights into how you can scale your business through wholesale. So to help us with that, I'm thrilled to welcome Katie Hunt. Katie is the founder of Proof to Product and the creator of Paper Camp, which is a program that's been helping creative entrepreneurs succeed in the wholesale market for years. Katie is a business strategist, a coach and the founder of again, Proof to Product, where she's worked with really thousands of entrepreneurs to help them get their products into stores like Anthropologie, Paper Source and so much more. Her Paper Camp program has become the go to resource for makers wanting to enter and succeed in the wholesale market.

I'm Bonnie. Christine and this is where all things creativity, design, business and marketing unite. I'm a mama living in a tiny town tucked right inside the Smoky Mountains, running a multi seven figure business, doing the most creative and impactful work of my life.

But when I first set out to

become an entrepreneur, I was struggling to make ends meet and wrestling with how to accomplish my biggest dream of becoming a fabric designer. Fast forward to today. I'm not only licensing my artwork all over the world, but also teaching others how to design their creative life and experience the same success. I'm here to help you spend your life doing something that lights you up. I'll help you build a creative business that also creates an impact, changes people's lives, gives you all of the freedom you want, and is wildly profitable. Welcome to the Professional Creative Podcast.

Hi Katie. Welcome to the Professional Creative. How are you?

I'm great, Bonnie. Thanks so much for having me.

I'm really thrilled to have you on the show and secretly a bit selfish as well because I want to learn and hear everything that you have to say about what we're going to talk about today. Your specialty is all about wholes and I, I love your industry experience here. So you've had an incredible career helping makers and creatives really grow their businesses. Can you tell me a little bit about what initially led you into the world of wholesaling? Like, let's go way back and at what point did you realize that this was an area that you could really help others in?

Sure. So I actually had a product based business that I started in 2008 it started, it's a common story in our industry. I was getting married, I did our wedding invitations, created personalized stationery for our bridesmaids, and soon people started asking me to do the same for them because I was in that wedding season of my life and I did a lot of that, enjoyed it. But then I started thinking bigger and I said, you know what, what if I could do more ready made type products and sell them in stores across the world. So within six months I was at an international trade show showing off my brand new products that did not quite meet industry standards, were not quite priced right, but I was going for it. And so that was in two. And I ran that product brand from about 2009 until 2016. And I started this coaching program in 2011. And really how it evolved was because I looked around the industry and I saw my friends were these talented, incredible artists, but they lacked a lot of the business knowledge. They either didn't want to deal with it or they just weren't comfortable with it or they didn't know where to start with it. Whereas I had over a decade in the corporate world, I had two MBAs. I have two MBAs, one in marketing, one in finance. So I loved the business side of things and I thought, well, well I could learn from them on the creative side of things and they could learn from me on the business side of things. Let's get people together for a call, like recurring call and let's like do this so that we rise together. And so we did in 2011. It started with simple teleconference calls and I brought in all sorts of guest speakers from around the industry to share, you know, things about sales and marketing and trade shows and all sorts of things. And that kind of evolved into a more formalized program. And now we're going to be running our 45th round of that this spring. So, you know, it comes from like, and my own need, but then also this desire to help others and recognizing I don't have all the answers and I can learn so much from others and they can learn so much from me and together we can rise. And it feels real good to know that we've made such a huge impact over the years.

Okay, that has a lot of parallels with how I got started and when I got started. And that's really, really fun. Maybe we can dive in more there. But I want to, I want to talk about specifically how someone like you said, so many people sell direct to consumer. So wholesaling feels like a bit of the unknown, it's a bit also maybe overwhelming. So how would you know that it's the right time to start considering wholesale? Are there certain signs that you look for in your business?

Yeah, absolutely. So I just want to emphasize what you said, that it feels a lot easier to dive into direct to consumer side of things with your physical products. You can hop on Etsy, there's lots of third party platforms you can jump on. It makes it easy to sell. Now you still have to do the marketing and all the other things behind the scenes, but it makes it an easier go to market strategy. Right. And I will say that the same is now true for wholesale because we have had platforms pop up like Fair Etsy Wholesale back in the day, although it's no longer around. So it is somewhat easier, especially in the last few years to get started with wholesale. And so I want to encourage people that if this is something you're interested in, don't be afraid of it, but do educate yourself yourself on what it takes. I do have a free audio series that's called Is Wholesale right for you? That kind of goes over some of the pieces which I want to share some here. But really it, there's a few fundamental pieces that people need to have in place to make wholesale successful. And one of them is that they need enough product. I see a lot of folks who have one or two items or they've built out a small collection of maybe under 10 items and that's awesome. For direct to consumer you can do a lot of targeted ads and like visibility pieces. It's easier to talk about one thing than it is to talk about a whole collection of things. But in the wholesale market, you're trying to reach other businesses who want to see a wide range of items. They want to think about the merchandising that's going to happen in their stores. They, they may not like everything that you sell too. So you want to have enough of a collection that they can pick and choose and still meet those opening order requirements that you've set. So size of the line, the number of SKUs that you have, the number of products you have is like one of the main indicators if somebody is ready or not for wholesale. A second indicator is pricing. I see a lot of people underpricing themselves on the retail side of things and if they don't understand how that correlates to wholesale, they may be actually losing money if they start selling wholesale. So understanding the nuances there and it's a lot to go through in a podcast like this. But there's a lot of nuance that you need to understand about your production costs and your pricing for wholesale and your pricing for retail and how that all correlates.

I'm laughing because I made all of these kind of mistakes at the beginning. I, I got started on Etsy selling handmade aprons back in 2009. So I took my cost and doubled it for my price. Right. And so then when I would get a wholesale order, I'm like, oh, I'm not making, like, I'm making $0 on this and it's a really big order. So now I'm just working for free.

Well, and, and you know, I mentioned it's easier to get in a wholesale. Now, first off, what you. Let me start. Back up a minute. What you expl is so common in this industry. I was doing the same, and then I started raising my prices so that I did have a profit and I priced myself out of the market. So this is again where that nuance comes into play of like, we really need to understand our numbers and also what the market is doing so we can price accordingly. But I also wanted to share, you know, I mentioned that, like, it's easier to get into wholesale now. We've got fair and these other platforms that are popping up. But you can also see folks who don't have their pricing ready. They don't have their terms and conditions. And so they're putting this stuff up on the platform and they're not, like, I can tell you for certain, as I look through FAIR at certain, like, brands, they're not making any money. I know they're not breaking even on this, especially because some of these platforms have told people, lower your opening order amount or get rid of it altogether. Like, only require people to spend $25 from you. Wholesale is a volume game, and if you are selling things for pennies, you're probably losing money on the deal. So I really, I talk a lot about just knowing the industry, knowing what your products would sell for on the market, being cognizant of your costs of what you're spending to produce your products, but really like, understanding how it all works because you are working far too hard in this industry to not be making any money.

I. We are about to re enter wholesale for the first time with our product shop. And I'm so glad that, you know, we learned a lot of things the hard way. I'm so glad for people like you who have kind of paved the way to make sure that we're doing it, doing it correctly. I mean, that was one giant mistake that we just talked about. Are there other. A couple of other common mistakes that you see people typically make when they start out in wholesale. And do you have any kind of like, avoidance tips?

Good question. I mean, definitely. The pricing is a big one, I think. Another one I see, and I kind of alluded to it with Fair and the marketplace there. But letting other businesses dictate your business practices is a huge mistake that I see. And I'll elaborate on this. Whether it is Instagram, you know, push encouraging you to post five reels a day and this many posts, you know, if we let that dictate our business plans and how we're allocating our resources and time, that's maybe not as beneficial to our brand as we think. Right. And so these sales platforms are doing the same thing. Fair, Instagram, all these places, they want what's best for their platforms. They want more sales, more engagement, all these things on their platform. So the algorithms are set to benefit them. They're not necessarily set to benefit the brand. And so I really caution people of, like, know where you're going, know what you want to accomplish, and then let's make the plan to get there. And yes, we want to leverage these tools that are available to us, social media, these sales platforms and all of that. But also you need to do it in a way that really benefits your brand, not just because somebody else said to do it this way or. And then that includes me as I'm giving advice to folks. You know, I want them to take what they're learning and apply it in a way that makes sense to them. So don't be. I guess the other mistake is don't be swayed by algorithms or advice that you hear online. Like, really dig deep as to what works best for you and implement those strategies and tactics.

Katie, I'm obsessed with this advice. I think it's so refreshing too, because it can feel like we're just yo yo'd around all the time. We often talk about something, we call it like juice worth the squeeze. And really that comes down to like data driven decisions. So is the time that we're spending on this actually returning or is our time better spent somewhere else? Same concept here with wholesale and not necessarily copying what other businesses are doing because you never know where. Where they got that. Let me tell you this story. I don't know where I heard it from, but they were some, some interviews were happening about why women cook a certain way. And this woman always cut off the ends of her roast before she made it. And they went on and on and on. And they finally went to her mother and she's like, well, my mother did it and her mother did it because her pan was too small. And so her daughter's been cutting the, the top and the bottom off of the roast for her whole life. And I feel like that's so often what we do is we do it because we've seen other people do it. This is just what we do. And we need to go back to the data, make sure we're making really wise decisions there.

So yeah, I have a training that I do with my folks called taking your business temperature. And we essentially audit all these different pieces of our business, the sales, the marketing. Because as you're talking about Bonnie, like sometimes we're just conditioned or we get in the habit of doing something a certain way because our mother's pan was too small.

Right.

And we need to like check in with ourselves. Is this still serving us? Is this still pushing us towards our goals? Is this really making the impact that we think it's making? You know, and having those internal check ins in all facets of our business, whether it's our product line, sales, marketing, our general operations, like it's so important to be doing that as a CEO of our companies.

That's what I call working on the business, not in the business. And I think me included just need more permission to think and on about and on the business. Like get out of so much of the doing and really think about the high level, you know, view of it. Okay. You recently served over surveyed, sorry, over 900 product based business owners. I can't wait to hear more about this. Can you share some of the key takeaways from this survey and what these are, are really indicating to you?

Yeah. And Bonnie, if anyone listening wants to see this survey, they can go to proof to product.com 2024 survey and you can see the summary and the results there because there's a lot here and it's pretty incredible once you start digging into some of the segments. I, I was shocked, Bonnie. There was one in particular, one stat that shocked the heck out of me and it was that 15% of the brands that responded to this survey are doing zero email marketing. No. Yes. What are they doing? They're using social, they're using word of mouth, they're using all sorts of other things, but mostly social. But they are not doing email marketing. And 15% feels like such a huge number to me. I mean, are you surprised by this?

Shocked by that?

Yes, because I. For my business and also many of my clients, email is the number one driver of. Those are our audience, that's our repeat customers. Like, those are the people that are going to spend more with us, buy more frequently from us. And so that felt like a really missed opportunity to me. So we've been talking a lot more about email marketing. I feel like I have been a broken record about it for years, but I think now we need to push even harder into it to like, let people know the benefits. But that was, that was a big one. Another stat that surprised me a little bit. People talked about. We asked about challenges in business. So we asked. Let me back up a little bit. We did ask some very specifics about what people are earning, their revenue streams, their tech tools, their marketing. We talked about even some of the personal things, like what's your challenges as a CEO? And definitely. And then also personally, like in leadership qualities, what's the hard part? And people are struggling with work life balance. That wasn't very surprising to me. I feel like coming out of what we've been through the last few years and with the economy the way it's been, it's been a rough financial year in 2024 too. So, you know, that whole work life balance and the struggle between wanting to be proactive in your business and wanting to really drive revenue, but then also wanting to maintain a healthy balance in what you're doing outside of work is a struggle. Are you seeing that in your community?

I mean, I think this is. Yeah, always top of mind is how to balance. Yeah, yeah.

And I didn't. I mean, these were all just stats of like, what are you struggling with most? And that was like the top one from that. I also saw in the survey that folks with six plus years of experience and with larger teams, they had higher, more diverse revenue streams, which makes sense. They had more years of experience under their belt and so they were able to try different things. They also seem to be working more sustainable business hours. And that also makes sense because they had a team of people helping them, which I know you've taught on and have worked through yourself.

You end up hitting this point where either you kind of died, like meaning you quit, or go back and get a regular job or something, or you figure out the work life balance. And a lot of that has to do with not doing everything yourself. Yeah, it's an interesting kind of ceiling to break through.

Totally.

One thing I feel like I missed in this survey, I did not explicitly. I asked about number of hours worked with the intent that we could kind of see who was working full time or part time in their businesses. And I think next time we run this, which will be in probably the spring of 2025, I'm going to explicitly ask is this your full time income or is this a side hustle? Because I do think those statistics would be really interesting to see because, you know, there's no shade in running it as a side hobby or, you know, a side hustle. Mine was for a while, while I still worked in corporate. But also I do think the data points will differ based on whether somebody's bullen or not.

Yeah.

Okay, this is just a side curiosity, but did you incentivize people who to take the survey? I feel like that's a whole other can of worms is like how to get someone to interact with a survey.

Yeah, we, I did not actually. I just said if you submit for it, you'll get the full results. And. And we were aiming for a thousand. I got a little impatient with myself and we ended at 9:25. I also kind of was within a finite timeline to not only get everything processed but then the report out. But yeah, I think next year when we do it, we might incentivize to get to that thousand mark or maybe. And it might be as simple as just hosting a webinar where I share the results with everyone that submitted, you know, and you it's invite only for those that participated. But no, we just shared it far and wide and asked people to submit and they did, which is great.

Okay, so we'll make sure to put the link to the results over on the show notes for today too, in case anybody missed it. But this is super fascinating. Thank you for sharing that.

Of course.

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You mentioned doing a trade show back in the day. I assume that's back in the day. I used to do a lot of trade shows. Us as well, and I feel like the whole landscape has changed. Trade show landscape, wholesale landscape, even the retail market to an extent. So do you talk about what you've really seen in the last handful of years, especially as it pertains to buying wholesale, and maybe just talk us through some of those changes that we should be thinking about considering?

Yeah, so you're absolutely right. The market has changed significantly and trade show landscape has changed significantly. I would also say that the sales rep landscape has changed significantly. I have seen trade shows are not going away and I think they are still a very important aspect of doing business. On the wholesale side of things, there's nothing like connecting with humans on a face to face level like in person and having them see your entire collection of products Right there where they can feel it, touch it, ask questions. Like, it is very difficult to capture someone's attention right now online, via email and in person. And you know, it's still tough to capture their attention. But if they're walking the aisles and they're stopping and looking, you can have a conversation, you can start that spark of a relationship which will lead to future orders or maybe an order right then and there. We are seeing a shift though, of folks who, like back in the day, we would leave shows with lots of orders in hand, ready to roll, and buyers were buying very differently then. They were going to the shows twice a year in the spring and the summer, and they were placing their orders for the next six months and then they would go the next six months into the show, place the orders and so on. With the advent of fair, the buying process has changed. The buying cycles have shifted slightly, meaning buyers are purchasing more frequently, they're purchasing in smaller quantities. But it's also really hard to stand out in a saturated marketplace, just like it's hard to stand out in social media. And so again, this is partly why I think sales reps and trade shows, this like in person sales mechanism is never really going away. And we can do a lot to nurture our accounts, you know, with emails and phone calls and things like that. But there is something special about being in person and showcasing all of your work in one spot. They are expensive. You know, trade shows tend to run at least $10,000. For the large international trade shows, we are seeing a lot of regional specialty shows that are popping up now. I had someone exhibit at a tropical plant show in Florida and she makes these really beautiful home decor trellises that are laser cut. Great show for her. So I do see brands really expanding outside of just traditional gift shows and looking at, okay, who is my audience? Where can I find them? And also some of the smaller regional shows do have a smaller buy in their smaller price tag. And so that's a good way to test that market too. So we're seeing lots of shifts. I don't think that the shows are going away, I don't think that sales reps are going away. But how we're doing business there is definitely changing. And then on the brand side of things, like we still need to be rele product at least two times a year. And there's definitely tools and tricks that we can teach people to get your products in front of people remotely. If you don't have the budget or the time to travel to shows or to hire Sales reps. So it's not impossible. You don't have to go to trade shows to sell wholesale successfully. So I do want to, like, make that very clear for your audience. There's lots of things you can do for that direct sale, but they are a really nice tool for a brand that's ready for it.

What would you say are your top picks for trade shows?

So the ones people mostly look at are New York now in New York. And then Shop Object, which is more of a boutique, like really curated, beautiful show. I feel like Shop Object really changed the scene because it went from just you're in a convention hall with pipe and drape. I mean, nobody uses the pipe and drape. They decorate it all real pretty. But my point is like that vibe of like, like conference room or, you know, convention center and shop made it like a really curated merchandised experience which buyers loved because they would walk in and they could picture their stores and they could picture the products on their shelves. And so the experience, I will say shows are getting more savvy. They're realizing that they need to provide more benefits to the brands to show up, more benefits to the stores to show up and make it more experiential for everyone to enjoy their time. There's.

Yeah, okay, that's really interesting. And with all of the changes, our new, like tech available tools and things right at our hands. So you've mentioned Fair a few times. Can you, for anyone who might be hearing that word for the first time, can you kind of crack that open? And then also, are there any other kind of tools or resources that you're seeing be really beneficial to those looking to get started?

Sure. So Fair is a third party marketplace specifically for wholesale. So you have to apply to get on Fair. They have to see that you already have the sales tools, like a catalog for your wholesale line. They want to see what your products are. They want to see that you have a presence on social media and a website and all of that. So you do have to get approved. And that can get tricky. There's a lot of people grumbling of like, I'm an established brand and I haven't gotten onto Fair yet, so just keep at it. If you're brand new, just, you know, develop that online presence, make sure that catalog is ready, make sure your price is right and all your terms and conditions are solid, and then keep applying. So Fair is a big one that a lot of folks are using. It really has amplified a lot of small brands that wouldn't have been able to really get into the wholesale game otherwise, other than that, there's a lot of things that folks are using on a day to day operational standpoint. You know, there's bookkeeping software, there's inventory management software, there's shipping solutions that people are using to make the fulfillment process faster. I mean, Bonnie, I could go on for days about the different tech tools available. And it's hard too because like I was saying before, what works for one may not work for another. So figuring out I think really starting with what sales platforms you're on first and then finding the tech tools to support and integrate with those platforms is the best way to go. That's usually what I recommend folks do.

Yeah, I think it's so good to just know that there's like a plethora of different tools that you can kind of bring together to, to make your business work for you.

Absolutely.

Katie, you also talk about really optimizing what's working, what's already working in your business and you have a four step process for making improvements. Would you talk about that with us?

Yeah, it's, it's more so a decision making matrix that I use when. And we can use this when we're deciding what products to create. We can use this decision making metrics when we're deciding what to discontinue. We can even use it about like team and operational things, but really things. And I also use it with revenue streams, dreams too of like what to lean further into and what to pull back on. So the four things that I consider when we're making these decisions are heart. How excited am I for this? How passionate am I for this? The next one is money. What is the earning potential or even what is the cost associated with this? So the fine, the dollars, the numbers around it, what is our time? So is this going to take up a lot of my time and if so, what is that taking me away from? What are the opportunity costs, cost with time? Or is it going to take me a little bit of time and can I do more, you know, can I make a bigger impact with this, this time? And then the fourth one is actually impact. What kind of ripple effect will this have for me as a human, for my customers and clients, for my business as a whole, for the world at large? Like we get real big with the impact, like what are we doing here? And so I weigh everything on those four criteria and that can help us decide what to move forward, forward with and what to pull back on. Of course I like to look real deep into the data Points too, of what's selling well and whatnot. But I think we need to look at more than just the numbers. I think we need to think about our energy capacity, our time, and the other things that we're having to say no to in order to say yes to this opportunity or to do more in this one area of our business.

Okay, totally speaking my language there. I love that. Talk to me more about like, let's say someone is in business and everything is going okay. Nothing is clearly screaming do more of me. But also nothing's clearly screaming like I hate this or it's not working or whatever.

So that's usually the. That's usually how it rolls, by the way.

Right.

Everything's checking along pretty well. How would you say a business owner can start kind of identifying areas that they should look at or could potentially improve?

Yeah, I mean, so the first thing I do is look at the revenue streams and I look at the dollars and I see where are we at currently and where do we want to be? And, and so for example, if they're selling direct to consumer and they're selling wholesale and maybe they're doing some licensing, we look at what percentage of their overall revenue are tied to each of those streams and then that's where we bring in heart. And we say, do I really enjoy direct to consumer and licensing and wholesale? And maybe we rank it on a thumbs up or thumbs down or maybe you put it, if you're a numbers person, you put it on a scale of 1 through 5 or whatever it is, is. But you look at each one separately and you say like, how passionate am I about this particular stream? And then we look at the money again, we look at what percentage of revenue, but we also look at opportunity, what kind of future growth and future financial experiences can we have there? And then we look at time too and we say, okay, is this taking a ton of my time? Is it. Do I feel like it's good use of my time? Is this something that someone else could be doing? Do I need to have my hands on this? Do I like to have my hands on this? And I want to keep it even if it's something that I could delegate to someone else. Right. There's lots of things to consider there. And then the impact again, that ripple effect. And so when you look at something like what's working in my business and I want to do more of, I. Most people start with the numbers, right? They like, oh, this is hitting financial goals, great. But like, if I really hate, you know, selling at Markets, retail markets, and talking to consumers and this and that. Like, like, okay, maybe you don't need to do more direct to consumer. Maybe you can pull back on that and allocate those time, resources and energy to wholesale where you still have to talk to people, but it's just a different way of doing it. Or maybe you could do more licensing or any of these other things. So I, I, I think this kind of comes full circle on our conversation that we get into like a zone of I've always done it this way, I have to do it this way, but you actually have a choice as an entrepreneur to drive this business, business any which way you want. And so that's just one example of how I would kind of look at my business or look at a client's business and help them focus more in a specific area if they want.

Katie, you have so much wisdom. You have so much knowledge and insight, but also wisdom is, is so very clear. And thank you so much for sharing that with us.

You're so kind. Thank you.

You make sure we get to talk about Paper Camp. So through Papercamp you have helped so many creative entrepreneurs get their products into stores. And so can you tell us more about Paper Camp? Tell us when it's happening, tell us a little bit more about what it is and someone could expect if they

were to join you in Papercamp.

Yeah. So we started this program back in 2011 when I was mainly working with stationery brands because I was a stationary brand. So we called it Paper Camp. It seemed fitting at the time. Time. We have since gone on to work with all sorts of brands all over the world. So people making candles, home decor, apparel, food products, all sorts of things. But our focus with Paper Camp, even though the name might take you a different direction, is really selling wholesale. And it's a four week program where we walk you through the exact steps that you need to take and the things that you need to prepare and have ready to have a thriving, successful wholesale brand. And so we do it in a very sequential order. We start with your product line. We want to make sure you have enough, enough product that it's priced right that you understand the numbers. We want to look at your SKU system, like very basic stuff that needs to happen that people don't even realize they're missing. I didn't when I was first starting wholesale. And so we start there and then we build into the sales tools. We talk about having a catalog and what those terms and conditions should look like. We give them some sample things to work off of. But I also do live coaching during this program so people can come to me and say hey, here's what I sell, here's the price points. What should my opening order be here? What should these details be? And we talk through and we give them specific answers for them and then we move into marketing and we have a whole section on how to pitch your products to stores, templates, workflows, all of the things. And it's real fun because those templates and things could be used for independent shops or they could be used for big box stores. There's a lot that we, our alumni do and are able to leverage these tools for different types of, types of audiences, different types of stores. And then our fourth week is really focused on trade shows. But I find that and the nitty gritty that goes into it, it's a lot of content. But also folks have lifetime access to the content. So if, if trade shows aren't what they need to be doing right now, we have calls where we still go over the previous content, make sure they're still moving forward and if they do need to do shows, they've got it there immediately or they can access it later. So it's a pretty intensive four week program where they get like content dripped out every Monday and then we have live calls in the middle of the week where we're answering their specific questions. It's not like a lot of the other coaching programs out there where people are left to do it themselves or you know, they get once in a while call with people like we're very hands on. I have other coaches in the program who are retailers and other manufacturers. So we really bring in a wide range of perspectives and yeah it's, I love doing it. It'll be our 45th round coming up up soon in the end of February we'll open registration for it and yeah, if people are interested they can join that wait list@prooftproduct.com Papercamp.

Okay, got it. We're going to make sure to have that link in today's show notes as well. It sounds like if you are considering wholesale and it sounds like you should be considering wholesale if you sell direct to consumer, that absolutely. Paper Camp is your one stop shop for making sure that you get off to the right start and, and really do it it again wisely.

Yeah, I just want to emphasize that like no business path is singular. Right. Like there's no just one pathway for everyone to follow. So we really try to make sure people know. Here are your options here are the different ways that you can choose to do this. We want you to select the best path for you and if you have trouble figuring out what that is based on what we've taught you, come ask, come ask questions. We'll, we'll guide you in the right way.

Katie, is there anything you would have someone make sure to be thinking about or have ready to go before, before paper camp or can they come kind of wherever they're at?

They can come wherever they're at. I do recommend that folks have an actual product line ready to go already and I do recommend that they've been, they have some experience selling it, whether that's direct to consumer or maybe they've dabbled in wholesale a little bit. We actually get quite a few people that attempted to launch wholesale on their own and then come back because they've struggled to get sales. There's a lot of misconceptions too around. I just need to get on fair and then my wholesale will like blow and it's like, no, you still, you still gotta go get the people and bring them to your shop. But yeah, I would say some sales experience would be beneficial. It doesn't have to be with wholesale. And then also an established product line is helpful.

Okay. Amazing. Katie, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your insights with us today. We are again going to have all of the links for papercamp over@profropriationalcreative.com Katie, you're amazing. Thank you. Thank you for being here with us today.

Thank you so much, Bonnie. This is a really engaging and fun convers. Thank you for having me.

Talk to you soon.