How a $12M MSP Is Monetizing AI w/ Nabil Aitoumeziane

Welcome to the $10 Million MSP Podcast. This podcast is where I dive into the real stories of MSP leaders who have gone beyond $10 million in revenue, how they built their teams, created scalable systems, and turned their businesses into valuable wealth-building assets. I'm Brian Hoppe, strategic coach to MSPs. I work with MSPs generally in the $5 to $50 million in revenue range. In each episode, I sit down with leaders who have built MSPs beyond $10 million in revenue to unpack the inflection points that truly matter. From the personal stories behind their journeys to the fundamentals like culture, operational maturity, and driving profitability. This isn't another MSP podcast about tools and tech. On the $10 Million MSP Podcast, you'll get behind-the-scenes conversations with leaders who've built thriving MSPs, their biggest wins, their toughest lessons, and the practical takeaways that you can take back and use right now. If you're an MSP owner who knows that growth starts from within, That mindset, leadership, and strategy align to create both wealth and meaning, then this show is for you. New episodes are released every other week. So let's jump in.

All right. So today I am joined by Nabil Aitumizian. Did I get it right?

Yes, sir.

Okay. I was like, yes. All right. I got it right. So thanks for that. Really excited for the conversation today. Nabil and I have gotten to know each other a little bit over the last couple of years. We got to see each other in person at IT Nation recently. He has, he has decades of experience in the MSP industry and Microsoft ecosystem, and he leads FSI as the president. And so I think this is going to be a great conversation. And Nabil, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. So I can do a quick introduction about myself. So I'm Nabil Aytoomian, the president of FSI Strategy. We are Microsoft-first MSP, so we're focused on helping SMBs and nonprofits modernize, secure their environment, and actually get value like from the Microsoft stack. That's the whole point for us being, you know, a Microsoft first MSP. So, uh, I've been in the space, actually, you said about a decade. I've been in the space for about 25 years in the MSP space.

Yes.

So unlike most MSPs, I've lived through the, you know, the chaos and scaling of people, margins, burnout, all of it.

Yes.

So these days, I mean, my passion today is, uh, that, you know, or helping organizations really get ready for the AI era that we live in. So starting, I mean, you know, like the whole point for us on the FSI side, it's like, you know, we start with the security governance. It's basically this is not a hype anymore. So 2026 is going to be the year of the execution.

So absolutely.

All hype of the AI last year. So very, very excited to be with you today.

Absolutely. Awesome. So and then and just so our listeners have some context, can you give an idea of your growth trajectory over the years as a business and kind of where you guys sit today as far as maybe revenue, employees, client base, that kind of thing?

Sure. So we've been in business, so FSI has been in business since 2003. I came into FSI in 2006, myself and my business partner. We are the 2 sole owners of FSI. So we've been like, you know, like All the MSPs, we've been through a journey of growth, uh, and, and you know how it is, uh, we went from the million to the 5. Now we're about almost $12 million, uh, in revenue, uh, a year.

Okay.

So we had to go through all the, the what I call the hardship, uh, to get here, uh, but the goal now, it's a bigger growth. I mean, I think Throughout the years, we have matured up as an MSP in every way, from operations to financials to the way we run business. And also understanding, I mean, 25 years being in the MSP, you have to evolve every year. Things change very quick.

Yeah.

We live in the technology world where things are moving very fast. And as you know it, in the MSP world, you have to catch up to everybody else, otherwise you're gonna be left behind. And that's why we made the decision about, I would say, 10 years ago to go the Microsoft route. We wanted to be a little bit different. You know, what makes us different than other MSPs? Because we are still an MSP at heart, at core as well. So we are more of the MMSP, a Microsoft Managed Service Provider.

Okay.

We even changed the acronym of MSP for us, Modernization Solution Partners, since we work with Microsoft. And we take our customers on a modernization journey within the security stack and modern stack. Uh, so that's, so the way we're looking at the growth, so that this past year, like I said, it's been more of like a learning period about AI, understanding it. And, and this year we're going all out on trying to help all our customers be part of the AI era. And the way we're doing it, we're doing it through Copilot, through Microsoft. So one of the things that we're trying to do it differently, that we include modernization into our customers' contract. If they are signing a 3-year MSP contract, the modernization projects are gonna be included in it. So to be either get them, uh, AI ready.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Gotcha. Okay.

Well, that's the direction for us for 2026 to make sure 100% of all our customers, they're modernized.

Yeah. Okay, fantastic. So yeah, and we definitely want to get into, into that, because obviously, AI is a big thing on people's mind. And so, so we'll definitely, we'll definitely dive into that some more, because you guys are doing some, some unique things and monetizing it as well. So, so I want to ask, as you guys— so as you've grown the company, and a lot of what we talked about here is leadership and, and kind of what it, what it takes to actually lead at a higher level. What would you say are some of the biggest leadership lessons that you've had to learn as you've grown your company?

Process.

Well, for me, if you don't have a process in place, it will be chaotic. And, you know, like, we know that chaos— I feel like chaos equals MSP. It's funny because, yeah, but don't forget, we are running one of the hardest businesses because we are— it's all Or what you can eat.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean? Like when the, this is the thing, what it starts like with when I talk about process, customers thinks like when they pay a flat fee, they get it all.

Yeah.

That's when you have to be very specific of what you get, what you don't get, whatever.

Mm-hmm.

And then having processes in different departments because at the end of the day, I don't care what business you're in, if you're not having a product It's the people that make the company. So everybody here at FSI is very important. So having a chaotic environment, it's equal failure.

Yeah.

So those are the things that— lessons that I've learned through years. It's how can you be more organized, having your operations very tied up, having different department talking to each other, all working together because we are one company. So those are the things. I mean, if you ask me what is the hardest thing running an MSP, I think it's people.

Mm-hmm.

Because an MSP is made of people and it, you have to surround yourself with the right people. So, so for me, those are the biggest lessons like I'm learning. It's, uh, it's, I, I've learned how to manage people and then I learned the other thing is to delegate. As you grow as a, you know, uh, as an executive in an MSP, you cannot be all over the place. You need to pick something and I need to learn how to delegate to others, uh, within the company to do those other functions. Because, you know, uh, as you know it, Brian, you came from it. Uh, when we are MSP owners or executives, we do it all. We wear every hat in the company and they think that will actually stop you from growing.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, so you need to figure out what is, what you are good at, whatever. And then bring in people who are better than you at the other functions.

Yeah.

And then learn how to delegate because I feel that I see it in our, uh, community, uh, the MSP community. A lot of people that are struggling with the growth, like when they get to that $4 million, whatever, and then they just get stuck there, whatever. And that's what you start making the decision of bringing in the right people To help you succeed. Because alone, don't forget, it's only always, it's one person. You cannot be all over the place, but you need to hire the right people to help you achieve your goals. But always look for somebody who is better than you.

Mm-hmm.

On those functions.

Yep.

Absolutely. So that's the way I look. And by the way, I don't look down on it because at the end of the day, leadership is about not, uh, doing it all yourself. It's also having other people be part of your journey. And then also uplifting people, like training people, making them better. And if you can even make them better than you, please do. Because at the end of the day, who wins? It's the company.

Yeah.

It's the person. So, so those are the things. And like I said, uh, the way I see it, I think we did a lot of changes as we grow. with staffing and all that. So you just have to surround yourself with people who are better than you and always treat your people with utmost of respect because that's what runs your MSP. We are adults here. We are not here to be, you know, gotta treat your employees with respect. And the goal for me, like if you ask me, Nabil, what is your goal as a person, whatever, for your company? My goal is my people here. I am a people person. My success is our employees' success.

Yeah.

And that's why I think we stress a lot. We always wanna have results on our goals. And because when the company succeeds, we make sure that we uplift our employees, we bring them up so we have a path for them to grow. Otherwise, people turn around. MSP, our business is the hardest business. Like, you know, like a lot of people forget we are on the top, but people forget the people that work in the service desk who get hammered every single day. You know, nobody calls to say hello when they call the service desk. Everybody's coming in hot. No. Yes.

Yeah.

You have, you have to make sure that you talk to those people and thank them for the hard work because they are the frontline of the company. They are the face of the company and they feel like As we grow as a company, sometimes a lot of people do forget that. And, you know, those are the heart of the business. So for me, like I said, one of the best things we've done is we surrounded, uh, ourselves. By the way, we built a lot of, of our leaders internally, and then of course we go and get some from outside. But we had some few beautiful stories of people be with us for 9 years, started as a Service coordinator and made it to a COO. One example is our guy, uh, Charles Rutowski, who is absolutely, uh, amazing. Uh, but he's known the company. He started as a service coordinator, so he knows every position in the company. A great, uh, was, you know, groomed internally and he's a superstar here at, at the site. Because for me, operation can take you down. If you don't have your operations together, it's chaos.

Yeah.

So on the—

There you go. Yeah. So there's a lot of meat in there. And I think when, you know, as I've been talking to other leaders and CEOs, even, you know, up to the $250 million range, I mean, it, it ends up becoming about people and process. And a lot of the things that you mentioned there. So, so what's, what would you say, like, for you as a leader in this, in this process of growth up to, you know, the $12 million range? What's been for you the biggest shift that you've had to make, maybe in your mindset, or in your leadership behaviors, in order to kind of step into that level of leadership?

Great question because it starts at the leadership. So, mm-hmm, it took me a long time to figure out what I'm very good at. You know, like that's a question I've been asking myself for years. What am I good at? Like, so, you know, like when you are a, a leader or let's say an owner of an MSP, you are jack of all trade and master of none. Yep.

I think a lot of people can relate to that.

Yeah.

And then, and then we can just have to face it. I am not a technical person. I went through business school. You know, I worked in a couple of IT companies before, but I've never been a technical person. I don't touch things. I don't work on it, but I understand it. And, uh, so for me, it's when you realize what you're good at. and you put all your effort into what you're good at, you see result. And that's what I've done 3 years ago.

Okay.

What I realized, I am a people person, right? And they communicate really well when it comes to C-level executives about technology, the overall, because what I've learned, when you're talking to a customer, most of them, they're not the decision maker, especially in the SMB world. where we belong, where MSP supports. You're talking to the big leaders. The CEO does not know much about technology.

Right.

He wants to have a business conversation. And those are the conversations that I love to have because I understand it. First of all, I drink my own Kool-Aid. I'm running my own business, so I understand the financial part of it, the operation part of it. So when I realized that, what I did, And that's when I put myself as the president and become like, I became the brand officer when we went to that Microsoft thing. So I put all my effort into it, like what I was very good at and what I did. The success will always come. It's when you remove that extra noise to the side. You know it firsthand when you're a CEO at an MSP. Absolutely. You're gonna be called about every problem there is with the customers or operations or sales or, so you're, they, even if you have a schedule in front of you and your calendar is full, there will always be something. I learned to be more disciplined. I think discipline will set you for success.

Yeah.

And that's what I did not have in the past when I started the MSP growing, you know, because basically we had, uh, nobody to kind of direct us. We had to do it ad hoc. And learn as you go. And, you know, but now what I've done is I also surrounded myself with very successful MSPs, CEOs from MSPs that I get also a lot of advice from. It's one thing that I've learned. There's always, you can always learn one thing from somebody else who's better than you. Yeah. And that's what I'm always looking at. It's when I have an issue, I call those people, it's like in the peer groups. So I'm a big believer in those. I think, You cannot succeed on your own because what I've been doing differently now, uh, compared to 10, 15 years ago, now when I have an issue, I call, I have some CEO friends from other MSPs and I ask them, it's like, hey, I'm going through this issue. How did you guys handle that part? Or, you know, so it already cuts me a lot of time that I'm not wasting, you know, trying to figure out the—

Right.

So like, so, so those for me, that all the lessons, because I feel like you only learn from others that have been there and there is no shame to ask. And then I feel like for any leader, they need to figure out what are they good at. That's a question I will ask anybody. That's a great exercise to lay down and ask yourself, what am I good at?

Yeah.

If tomorrow FSI is no longer here, Why would I be like, what would I be doing?

Yeah.

That's a good—

I love that.

Yeah. I, I, I tell people like, just think about it for a minute. Just think about it like, hey, if tomorrow day is not, you don't have your MSP, what would you be doing? What are you good at? Find out. I, I did. And when I did, honestly, my energy level went to another thing cuz now I'm only concentrated on building this relationship with Microsoft, working with the customers. I am not boggled down with like the day-to-day things. I have the leadership meeting on a weekly basis. I get what I need to know if I need something, but otherwise I'm concentrating what my goal. My goal is to help customer grow FSI and grow the hell out of our relationship with Microsoft. Because for me, if you ask me today, it is the best company out there to come to especially support the SMB market. The tools that Microsoft offers, when you get an E5 license with most of the stack, you can be running your business with one place. Look, let's face it, MSP world, we are the hoarders of tools. We buy from IT Nation and there is all the vendors, which is fine. I mean, but now I think as you grow and you mature, You start being very selective what works for us. It became very easy decisions because of the decision when we went as a Microsoft-centric MSP. So we only work with partners who are also very strong partners of Microsoft.

Right.

At the end of the day, whatever product that we decide to go with, whatever, it has to help our customer, not just—

Absolutely.

Yeah. You know, we went through a few audits, uh, of tools that we bought and the engineer asks you to buy a tool and then you use it for 6 months and then they're no longer using it, but you're paying for it. They don't see it.

Yep.

But you, as a leader, when you run your, uh, you look at your financials, they're like, hey, are we using this?

No.

So what are we paying for it? Oh yeah, we're in a 2-year contract or 3-year contract.

Mm-hmm.

So those are general things.

Tool sprawl, we like to call that, right?

And I'm sure you have seen it. I think we keep seeing it a lot with the smaller MSPs because they don't know. And that's why I will encourage any small MSP that's trying to grow, find somebody, uh, that can be your mentor or, uh, you know, build a friendship with some bigger ones. Don't go to somebody at your size. Go, if you are at the $4 million mark, whatever, go Meet, make a friend, another CEO who's doing $25 million. So he can kind of be your, you know, mentor, direct you a little bit. And I think a lot of, that's the beauty about our community. I think we have a beautiful community. People help each other.

Yeah, absolutely. How it's going.

Yeah.

There's no more animosity, whatever. I think, uh, it's, it's an open market and I think people are willing, uh, if you talk to another CEO, they're willing to come cuz they've been there. They lived your life. Mm-hmm. They were in your shoes. They were a one-person company and then 10, and then, you know, until they get to the level where they are, 200 employees, whatever. So those are, so don't waste too much time. The best thing you can do as a, a small MSP, build relationship with other CEOs, build like a peer group on your own.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, uh, where you have like access to these people. So I think that's the best advice I can give.

Yeah, absolutely.

I know, I know it served me. I have, yeah, I, I, I call a lot of, uh, I would not be putting names here, but a lot of CEOs were doing in the $200-something million, whatever, that I became friends with. And I call them, I get advice and they got, you know, uh, they get mad at me on not acting on thing, you know. I tell them last month I asked them something, they give me an advice and I'm like, what are you waiting for? You know, but that you need that.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah.

And that's been a huge piece for me. And, and especially so what's really struck me is on finding the things that you're really good at. Because, and this is an exercise that I go through with a lot of my clients. And this is a concept from the book, The Big Leap, but it's finding your zone of genius. And that's what it really reminds me of, right? It's the things that are, that you're uniquely good at.

Yeah.

That you're, you can, you're like best in the world at that bring a lot of value to your company and the people around you. And they're easy and they're fun for you. And if you can figure out what those things are and then systematically delegate everything else, um, not only are you gonna like have a lot more fun in life and in business, but also your business is going to do better.

Absolutely. And you see, this is what I was going to say. So my first thing was about the Hoppe Group finding a CEO or Find a consultant like you who's been there. You need to talk to somebody that drank that Kool-Aid, not a consultant that comes from outside of our MS, because MSP, if you didn't live it, you don't know it.

Right.

So yeah, absolutely.

If, if, you know, for me, for example, you are a big resource for me. You've been there, you lived that. So like, if I ask you for advice, you know what I'm talking about and you're gonna give me the right thing. That's why I would tell anybody that's trying to grow and they're like stuck in that growth mode, talk to a consultant, find the CEO. If there's no CEO that can help you, find the consultant that, that came in from the MSP world that was wearing the shoes before you. Who knows?

Yeah.

He can at least direct you because he's been through that struggle of like, you know, when you get to the $5 million and then to get to the $10 million, it's like the hard one, but. When you hire a consultant or you have somebody, a strong person that CEO from another big MSP can help you.

Yeah.

Go for it. It'll cut you a lot of— don't waste money on consultants for all the little software thing or, you know, think more about the growth of the company. Like how can you grow the operations, the sales, the, you know, so, and all that, it has to come from somebody that's been in our business. You cannot go to somebody because MSP, it's a, you know, a lot of ISVs, they have hard time getting in into our world. MSP world.

Yep.

They do. Yeah. Because it, yeah, it's a difference. So yeah, for me, the biggest advice I would give to any MSP who's trying to grow, find the CEO, whatever, P group, or find a consultant like what you do because you lived it. So it's easy because you drink that Kool-Aid. It's much easier. You can tell them, and by the way, Nothing. I love it when I have a third eye, like an outsider coming in and looking into us and tell him, what do you see? Like, I'll tell him how we do. Oh my God, you hear a different perspective and I love it. It brings a lot of things that you don't see.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and that's, yeah, you know.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's a thread, I think, among the conversations that we've had here on the podcast as far as, uh, you know, nobody has grown their MSP to $50 million without help. Right? Like, and when we start out, we, yeah, we think that we're what we're— it's like, well, I started this thing, I got it to here, I don't need any help. I've got this thing. Well, actually, no, you do. And, and it's going to shortcut all of the problems that, you know, everybody else has already run into and solved, right? So why not go find somebody to help that's been there and done that and can help you Actually accelerate the, the growth to where you wanna be.

I will tell you the biggest mistakes as well we have done, and that will be, uh, mm-hmm, it's doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. That's one of the biggest thing. If I had to go back 10 years, it's one thing I'm learning is to make decisions right away. There's no bad decision, right? Make a decision. There's nothing better. Just make a decision. If it's bad, at least you made it. But if you are, having issues and there is people, uh, coming in in the way and you have like, when it comes about like, you know, staffing and you gotta make that decision or, or whatever.

Yeah.

Like with the, the, the software that you got, if it's not working, why are you keep doing the same thing that's not working and expecting and then go and do it again? So that mistake I have done, I own it. I've learned from it. And I think, I hope everyone else that's listening or listen to it is to learn from it. You gotta learn from it. You gotta, you gotta make a decision. You know, we are MSP owners. Uh, a lot of, I think of the people don't know about the stress we go through. And, and you know, it affects not only your work, it affects your personal life, whatever. Those are the two things that I've learned now. I wanna be happy.

Uh-huh.

And when I'm happy, I want everybody in my staff to be happy. So that's, that's, that, that's the whole goal. But to do that, again, you have steps. That's what I said. Talk to another CEO, talk to a consultant like you. They can give you some advice cuz there's some things that you can change that can change the company in a good way.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

You know, and then there's a lot of things that I'm learning about loyalty. Who are you loyal to? Are you loyal to the whole company or to one person? So those were the decisions you have to be very smart on making. I know we all have a heart. I'm a very— I'm all about people, but the loyalty has to be to the company, not only one person. It's to everybody in the company. And those are the things that I— my 2026 are set up. It's like, you know, yeah, I, I'm caring more about everybody. It's not like every single person, but, but everybody, the company as a whole, because when a company grows and succeeds, everyone in the company grows and succeeds as well.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I, and I think about that as like, are we making our decisions and, and doing the right things for the greater good of the company? Right. That's the, that's the thing that's gotta be front and center in everybody's mind from leadership all the way down.

And, you know, like, it's funny, I love how you said it because And sometimes when you make those decisions, they are the hardest decisions to make because they're tough decisions, but you have to make them. Yes. More, you have to live today for today. Nothing guarantees. You know what I look for now? I've learned this. I look for my happiness for today, not tomorrow, because no guarantee I'll be here tomorrow.

Yeah.

I have no guarantee telling me that I'm gonna leave and nothing will hit me and I'm gone. So I live day to day, but my happiness is for today. And then I look when I'm happy today and I'll make it till tomorrow. Tomorrow I'm gonna make it another happy day because there's no guarantee about what's tomorrow. So that's the philosophy I go by. It's about everything that I'm doing today. Uh, and by the way, I mean, we are in the world, you cannot make everybody happy, you know, us customer-wise, whatever. We have to go back to basics. When it comes to, uh, customer service, even in sales, we gotta go back to where we were. What, when I started 25 years ago, meeting with the customer, it's a face-to-face people. A lot of things that they're forgetting, it's another human being that's buying from you. It's people to people. And we have lost that during COVID whatever. It became all, you know, uh, digital things and, you know, remote stuff. No. Now people are back to the normal life, to where we were before. So one of that's one of the big mistakes from our end as well. Like we lost traction of our customer service and, uh, you know what we were, the stuff we used to do, go visit customers. We didn't, we're going back to it. We're going back to where we started.

Mm-hmm.

The basics.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's the only thing that works. It's human. We're selling to other human people. Buy, of course, they company name, but people buy for that person who's selling to them. If they don't like them, they're not gonna buy.

Yeah.

That's how they've gotta know, like, and trust you. Exactly. Yeah.

It's, it's, it's all, by the way, it's all about the trust. I think that's the T, capital T. It's the biggest word because you need to build that trust for people to buy from you. To build that trust, that needs to be a lot of human interaction with these people. They need to know who you are. They need to know, of course, who is the company, but they need to know you as a person too.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, most of the businesses now that I'm doing, and I'm working with the, a little bit with the sales team and all that, it's like we need to go back to basics of customer service, of selling, of, you know, account management.

Uh-huh.

We got a little bit, we cannot let the tools run our business. We cannot just be relying on tools to do things for us. Yes. Tools are great to make us more efficient. All right. Like through reports and all that. But it's not the tool who's gonna be doing the customer service. It's not the tool who's gonna be selling for you.

Mm-hmm.

So it's the people, right?

Exactly. So we have, that's what I've been, it's funny, uh, this morning I had a leadership call. And that's what we discussed. Back to basics. We need to pick up the phone, talk with the customer, go meet the customer at their office, go take them out to lunch. Sellers, when you're staying to a customer, they're local, you need to go. No more remote things.

Yeah.

Because when you meet them, it's very different. I remember it. I used to be, uh, you know, uh, me and my business partner, like going to all the sales. This is where the real deal were made. Through people.

Yep.

You know, absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah.

So that's, I think this is where we are. I think the kind of COVID kind of, uh, threw us off a little bit, you know, of the change on how we do business. But I feel like the best way to succeed today is to just start with the basics, you know, make sure you take care of your customer. That's who, uh, pays us because them, we are in business. So They need to be your priority. Make sure your employees are your priority as well, because if your employees are not happy, the customers won't be because, you know, that's a ripple effect. If, if you're— so you gotta make sure those 2 sides are both very happy. So.

Absolutely. Yes. I love that. And, and I wanna go back to something that you mentioned about, like, about decisions and You know, it's, it's kind of like, it's more important to actually make a decision and not sit on it, even if it's the wrong thing. And something also that I found is, it's important to push decision-making as far down into the organization as possible and as reasonable with, you know, with, with clear guardrails and things like that, so that not everything is coming right back to you as the owner.

I love it because I think that's the biggest problem because you remember what I was telling you earlier, you gotta build that layer of leadership where they have to learn how to make the decision without involving you. So, and that, yeah, all comes, it takes time, you know, for you and I and other MSP owners, it's very hard for us to give the keys to the castle, you know, but I've learned that.

Mm-hmm.

Now I gave it. You have to trust.

Yeah.

Because it takes some time, but you need to be removed from those decisions. You gotta deal with the bigger things that need, you know, need your attention. Outside of that, the day-to-day things, people should, you should have the right layer of management to take care of that.

Yeah.

So I can concentrate on what I'm doing. That's why I told you what I find I'm good, cuz that's how basically you get bogged down back. Into not doing what you're good at is to start dealing again with that chaos. So I love how you put it in there. I love it.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that also, by the way, helps with decision velocity, right? Because then it's like you aren't, you're no longer the bottleneck as the owner or the leader or the CEO. You're saying, hey, make the decision. If it's a problem, okay, that's okay. We can go back and fix it if we need to, or we can change it. And if nothing else, they've learned something and, and grown as a leader themselves.

I don't know, man. I feel like you're in my brain right here. No, no, it is, it is, it is the honest truth. What you just said, it's absolutely 100% right. They, even if they make a mistake, it's okay. They're gonna learn from it. That's how they become better leaders.

Yeah.

If they don't make mistakes, they won't learn, and they're not gonna have that, you know, you need to be there to support them, say, hey, okay, a mistake was made, let's fix it, let's move on, let's not look back anymore. I see that's my new philosophy, is to move forward.

Yeah, there you go.

You know, deal with whatever consequences later, but if there is an issue, let's fix it and move on, and then we'll go back and figure out what happened. But I think for me That's great. Even if they make a mistake, whatever, it's something that we can fix and then they learned a lesson from it. So that's how they become good leaders. Because if you are always involved in every decision, that's micromanaging.

Mm-hmm.

And then it'll take you out of the bigger things that you can wanna accomplish to grow the company. So you need to build that layer of trust of people in the leadership. to make the right decision. And even if they don't, they need to learn how to figure out to fix it and move on.

Yeah.

Because otherwise, I think this is the, the thing that, the hardest thing as an MSP, uh, exec or owner, it's we were all involved in every single decision of the company, for God's sake. Every department, every person, every tool, anything that, you know, you can't, we're human beings. It, we did it. But it comes to the point where you are burnt out, you know, like you don't know what you do anymore. What is your position? Because you are dealing with different departments. Like for example, I don't get involved much within the engineering world, whatever. Those are very technical, but I get involved in the higher level of the process and, you know, but I don't get too much involved in that. There is a leader for that. And that's who I talk to when I need to talk to.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

There's those layers, uh, today, uh, and that's what I like. And I think this is really going to help us now. We're like, we scale for the growth, we're ready for it. We have the right departments, we have the process in place. Now it's just like bringing in the customers to be able more to support that. So.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then again, now it's like, uh, No complaint. Now, like, the thing about it, there's AI that came into the game, which AI is helping us work with our process, like write some, like basically a lot of things that people talk about, they're doing AI. Let me just go back to this.

Yeah.

We do automation and they call it AI process. So there's like a whole— but my point to you is like by having AI today, AI can help us a lot with the process to manage it. So we have to utilize those tools in the right way. How can it make us better? Not about—

Absolutely.

It's not about replacing people, but how can it make those people much better?

Yeah.

There is a thing that I, I joke about and I tell people since I started to use Copilot, which is the truth. It turned me from a donkey to a horse race. I become a much quicker I'll tell you why, because sometimes I do put my ideas in Copilot and it puts them in plain English and very, you know, how I wanted it. Like I talk to it like I'm talking to a person, I'm talking to another CEO. I'll ask it question and, you know, so I tell people one thing that's the world we live in today, uh, very different than when you and I, we started our MSPs. It's Knowledge today is democratized. Nobody can tell you I don't know something with all the corporate ChatGPT, Gemini, Perplexity. No one can tell you anything that I don't know. If they tell you that, that's not somebody that I want to be working with.

Mm-hmm.

Because, right, we know today anything you need to know can be found on the internet.

Anything. Yeah.

Narrow.

Yeah.

But what I'm saying, of course, sticking to what you specialize in, whatever, but be better at it. You utilize AI to help you be a much better, you know, employee. So utilize the AI tool to make you a better person, better employee. How can it save you? Like, you know, The admin stuff in the morning for your emails, create, build the agents. No joke, it takes 30 minutes. You go on YouTube, you look at the freaking video, 30 minutes, it can show you how you can build a small agent.

Mm-hmm.

It's like this concept. Yeah. Today there is no, uh, again, this knowledge being democratized for all of us. It's amazing, Brian. I was having conversation last night with someone. I said, we used to write papers in college. We have to go to the library. to just figure out the population of some countries, right? Were you writing a paper about something just like simple things, like what's the population of Japan back in the days? It's only in a book.

Yes. You gotta go, go to the encyclopedia.

Yes.

Right.

It's funny, we had that whole conversation yesterday. Look where we are 25 years ago, 20 years.

That's crazy.

Yeah. So that's why I tell people AI is actually Actually a tool that will really help you better yourself. Like, you know, use it as your assistant, as, you know, as actually, you know, AI is like a bigger brain than you. It's gonna make you so much better.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's kind of like it said, I don't know who said it first, but, you know, AI is not gonna replace all the jobs, but But people who can use AI are definitely going to replace people who can't.

And everyone, all the, I mean, the big companies in the world, the Fortune 500, they all say it, use AI to better yourself. Otherwise you won't be here anymore because the people are gonna be using AI. Those are the people who are gonna still be there and it's gonna avenge them. So you like to tell people the best advice I give, use it every day, like Give an hour, 1 hour a day to learn it, you know, train yourself on it. And there is all, you have everything online today, like for training, to train you how to use Copilot, how to, you know, it is absolutely amazing what it can do for you.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So on that note, maybe talk a little bit about how you guys are using Copilot or AI internally. just to help you guys, uh, you know, I don't know, better serve your clients, be more efficient, that kind of a thing?

So AI, we use it in the different departments. Like, for example, we use AI for our marketing, uh, department. I don't know if you're aware, but we can talk a little bit, but we were with ConnectWise for about 14 years. But again, we're very different as an MSP. We moved to Dynamics.

Oh, okay. All right. For your PSA, for like ticketing?

Yeah, for PSA, we're with Kaseya, then 14 years with ConnectWise, a year and a half ago, we made the decision, we brought everything into Dynamics.

So, okay, gotcha. So you're very Microsoft committed.

Oh my God, if you find anybody more committed to Microsoft, please, I would love to meet them.

Okay, we will let, we will let the Microsoft team know that you've officially drank all the Kool-Aid.

Oh, they know. Oh my God. It's like, yeah, but so, so like what was good for us, even though we made the move and Copilot wasn't that hot, but now we're using Copilot in sales. And Copilot in marketing is to run campaigns in the background.

Yeah.

We have, you know, uh, we built a process around it, whatever. So now what's— we're utilizing like service desk now for the tickets, whatever they're using Copilot to see all the historical thing. And it tells you the last person, how they fix it. So all that kind of stuff. So we are like, that's the thing. It's like we are building now, we are in the process of building like, uh, agents. for HR, finance, you know, to help. Okay. We, we're just trying to cut all the administrative stuff that didn't need really a person to automate. Like basically, like I said, it's automation as well. That's what it is.

Mm-hmm.

Of a process.

Yep.

So of the admin process, the stuff that you don't wanna be doing, whatever. And, uh, so I mean, yeah, so that's, that's, that's the journey we're going in. But I'll tell you, if you wanna be successful when it comes Uh, into AI, you need to implement it internally first. You, you have to drink that Kool-Aid. You cannot go talk to a customer. And I think this is something that we are seeing more and more.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, I would, no joke, I would say at 90% of the companies who are trying to sell Copilot, but they're not internally 100% Copilot. You need to, because you know what, you're gonna be supporting it as well. So, You might as well have your employees use it, know it inside out, and then take all the advantages of it because Copilot, it really saves us a lot of time. The amount of time, I mean, we're actually trying to build a tool today to figure out how much money it's saving us and the ROI. And it is, there is a big one.

Yeah, absolutely. So that totally makes sense. And how are you handling the security aspect of that just internally as far as data governance and those different kinds of things to make sure, hey, people aren't seeing things they're not supposed to see and other things like that?

So when it comes to that, we use AppPoint and that's what they're really good at is like data governance and all that because by the way, I love it about this is again, It's a great question because one question everyone is talking about, okay, how we are implementing AI, but no one is talking about the after. How do you secure it?

Mm-hmm.

You know, about the whole governance of, okay, we went, let's go back very quick. 2025, 2024 was like all the Copilot readiness. Let's go to a customer, get them Copilot ready. Not even think about it. Like, let's just do, go clean up that SharePoint, you know, the data. And then secure all the data, put the governance in place, whatever, you know, because, you know, garbage in equals garbage out if your data is not that great. So we went through all that process.

Yeah.

Uh, the year before. This year it's more of the execution of implementing Copilot for those customers, 100%, taking it in and then showing them the tips and tricks on how they can use it, how they can save time on stuff. Because, you know, I'll tell you one thing I've learned, You can take a customer to Copilot, but if you don't train them the right way, they're not gonna use it the right way. They're gonna tell you this is not a good product. So you have training has to be a big part of it.

Mm-hmm.

Otherwise, on anything that we do as an MSP, when there is new products, whatever like that, you need to have trainer and staff is to train your, uh, your customers. Because one, I always remind people, if you don't train your customer, you're gonna get a lot of support calls.

Mm-hmm.

So you can drop that by like, no joke, 60 to 70% if you train the company on the tools that you're giving them.

Yeah.

You know, cuz if you don't do it, it's gonna all come back into the support desk. Oh, I don't know how to do this. This is not working. This is, you know, but if you show them how they can use it, basic stuff of use of Copilot, whatever. You won't be getting as much of support calls. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Well, so that takes us, you know, see kind of from internal where how you guys are using it internally to external. So you're obviously doing this with your client base. So maybe talk about how you're going about monetizing it or, you know, getting paid to help your clients with AI.

So that's what I was gonna tell that again, another great question. 'Cause I've been answering a lot of those.

Mm-hmm.

To monetize on it, like, you know, the year where we're going, 2026, we're in, it's all about agents. We all been hearing agents and all those AI companies who are popping up every day. They built one agent, they call themselves an AI company and, you know.

Yeah. Yep.

So for MSPs, I think for us, this is big opportunity for us.

Huge.

You know why? Because even if a company is gonna buy an agent or whatever, gets an AI company to help them build, uh, AI internally, those agents need to be managed for governance. You were talking about security part of it.

Yep.

It's gonna be part of our managed service. You know, it becomes an MRR. We have to support those things. We have to keep watching them. It's gonna become kind of like you're supporting a server. That's what an agent is going to become.

Yeah.

Because it needs to be watched. It needs to be maintained, you know, for the customers because they're gonna add things, remove things. They make it better as they go. It needs, you know, a constant, uh, work on, on that agent. So I think for us as MSVs, a lot of people are like scared. I'm like, no, I'm looking at it more as an opportunity. More of our customers that we're supporting, they're getting AI agents, whatever. That's why we need to learn, all of us, to work on AI, understand AI. How can we support it when it comes to security and the data and all that and the governance? That part of the support is gonna be for us MRR coming out of the—

Yeah.

You're gonna charge like a $500 per agent a month, whatever. You know what I mean? To support because that agent is very active.

Mm-hmm.

You know, people are working on it. So me, I'm looking more at it. People are like, oh my God, there's all those companies are coming in, they're gonna take all out. No, I'm looking, okay, they specialized in one thing in AI. They're building this for the customer, but we're gonna be the ones supporting it to now the environment we're supporting.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna have to charge them to maintain it, to secure it, to make sure the governance, like, you know, it's all working and all that because it's all Even if it was built by an external company, but it's still in the customer's environment that we're managing. So it needs to be like running under our rules.

100%.

Yeah. So, so, okay.

So, so are you also helping them? Are you helping your clients currently, helping your clients build agents?

Yes, we have. Absolutely. We do. We have The thing about it, like I said, 2026 is the year of execution for the reason now people are, they're more aware about what AI is. Last year, I'm telling you, it's chaotic. You talk, you can sit with 5 people in one table at dinner and you're gonna hear 5 different versions of what AI is or how do I see it.

Yeah, absolutely. And so, I think you alluded to earlier, but, and are you essentially, Um, building that into your, um, your managed services agreements as far as the building and support of the agents that you're deploying for your clients?

Absolutely. Because that's what I said. That's what I was saying like earlier. A lot of the MSPs, they feel like it's a threat, whatever, of those agents. Actually, I look at it more of opportunity or more MRR for us to support. But it would be better if we, all of us, As MSPs, we build the agents ourselves for our customers.

Mm-hmm.

Especially if they have like an E5 license Copilot with Microsoft, whatever that you can, you can do that. And that's why like we are experimenting because we just do not want to go to market with something that doesn't work. We only go to market with something that works for our customers.

Mm-hmm.

Because, you know, it's a big risk as well. You put something bad on your customer and that, Goodbye the relationship if you do like the wrong, you know.

Yeah, absolutely. There's a measure of that measure of trust that you got to keep there. And so do you, do you have a team that's dedicated specifically to like the, you know, building the agents, supporting the agents? Yeah, those kind of things.

We have 2 people, but now we're going— we already started a while ago. It's— we're training everybody in the service desk about Copilot, not about using it, how to support it.

Right.

Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Yeah.

So, and no, no, I was gonna say in the era, uh, of AI now, everybody's either buying, like I said, Copilot or other AI tools. We have to learn how to support them. We need to understand it. So that's why we already started the training. We're training everyone because we are already starting to get some calls and now we're gonna be getting more and more as we go because everybody is implementing AI internally. Every Everyone is talking about it. It's the buzzword. It's, you know, people feel if they don't get it, they're gonna be left behind. So this is the opportunity, I think, for us of MSPs is to learn more about it. It's how we can support it. What is, you know, how can we monetize on it? Because again, it is going to be a service, like a managed service. Service actually.

Yeah, yeah, it is.

It's basically somebody almost like putting a server into your thing that you need to support. There's like a lot of data, like that data needs to be managed somehow. Who has access to what? And you need to keep running reports, make sure still not the wrong people having access to the wrong, you know what I mean? So getting sort of, that's what people like were thinking about. I just like building. No, it's like there is a life after building. It's how can you secure that agent? Yeah.

How can we manage it? And that's where the MRR is as well. You know, that's my point.

And that's why I look at it more like a big opportunity than, uh, you know, something. That's why I think all of us as MSP in the community, I think this is something that all, like, look, last year was the year everyone was struggling on how, where to start, how to do it, how to approach the customer about it. We didn't have much knowledge, all of us, you know, but again, this year it's a very different story. We have it implemented internally 100%. So. We're all in it. We know how to work it. We learned so much. We actually saved so much money. Uh, we've learned like, you know, the time that we save and, and we're now, we are training the people now. That's other things that we have to take to our customer. How can we make our customer better? Do more with less for our customer. It's not about, by the way, at the end of the day, it's not all about just making the money. It's how can you also make the customer better?

Yeah.

You have to have those 2 go well together. Like, how can you make that customer, you know, modernize, secure, and safe? We're living in a crazy world today. There's like the basics that people have to have. Like security is becoming, you remember 10 years ago, security, there was only 2 security companies. Now every MSP is an MSSP.

Yes. Or at least they claim to be.

Yeah.

Right.

I mean, security, I mean, I know 10 years ago, 5 years ago, I can tell you. My customers didn't wanna hear a thing about it. Didn't wanna spend the money on security outside of the antivirus and the firewall. Now it's a different world. Now we live in a very, you know, so, and that's what I say. It's like, this is what the time now, and with AI is only gonna make it more difficult when it comes to security.

Mm-hmm.

Because, you know, I mean, there is a lot of things. I mean, also there is other things about AI. If you go with Copilot, how can you stop the other things like ChatGPT from people not to post information of a company.

Yeah.

Either personal phone, take a screenshot and then have it run. You know, those are the things we have to think as we go, like how far, because, you know, we are living in the same, uh, internet era, the dot-com. That's, that's, that's, that, that's what this whole AI thing, because we don't know what's the end to it.

Yeah.

How far is it gonna take us? So those are the things that we are thinking because Security. I think it's the most important. This is people putting all the data, uh, in there. I mean, you know, like their lives. It's the, the, the heart of the business. Uh-huh. That's why you use AI through the data. Uh, so that's—

Yeah, that's a big thing. It's, it's a big thing. So the big—

yeah.

And I think you have to think about those little things that can harm you.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

And, and, and on, uh, well, uh, there, there's a, there's so many directions that we could take the, the AI conversation, but I think it's, Um, you know, MSPs have to figure out how to provide it because, um, that your clients are going to come to you for it. And if you, if you have no answer, then they are going to go to somebody else for it, right? They're going to go to the MSP down the street that knows.

I don't mean to cut you, but if you don't go to them first, someone else has already approached them.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You better be having— and that's why I love what you said, it's you need package it like that. First thing first, understand it, implement it internally, then have a small package for the customers that you're supporting. If it's SMB, something for SMB, simplify it, but bring in value to the customer. It's not just about selling to sell.

Yeah.

AI, it's what is the customer— customers need to see big ROI on their investment, you know, like when they do it. So It's something that I think packaging it and like understanding it first, implementing it like internally, then put it into a package, then sell it to the customers. That will be, but don't wait to have the conversation. Even if you're not ready, start just talking with them. Try to understand what they're trying to do, what they're trying to accomplish. Understand the customer's business, you know, because by the way, I think it's the, we missed all of us the mark. AI, it's more of a business conversation more than technical because you're trying to fix operational issues in your customer's environment. It's not—

Yeah.

IT, it's not technical. It's the day-to-day thing. It can be within finance or HR or whatever, you know, process there that's broken.

Yeah.

You need to talk to them and see how they're doing business, what they are trying to fix. And that's how you come up with ideas to build agents to fix those operational issues.

Yeah. Well, and incidentally, it's also, this is actually taking you up the value stack for your clients if you can get into these things, because it's not, it's no longer on the level of infrastructure, which is, I mean, it's important, but it's not what they see as the most value to their company. What's going to help them make more money? What's going to help them serve their clients better? And those are the things that they care about.

Well, I was going to tell you, Brian, we're going back. To basics. Talk to the customers about their business, not about your freaking firewall or, you know.

Yeah. How many service tickets you solved this month?

Yeah.

I mean, sure, that's important.

That they can, their account management can deal. But us, like, it's a bigger, it's more of a business conversation. You know what you're becoming? MSPs today, we're becoming the PwCs. The Deloits, we're becoming more of like now consultant when it comes to AI because it's more of a business conversation that you're trying, like I said, help them figure out how to fix some of the operational issues by bringing again technology, which is AI, to help them fix it. But you need to have a business con— it has, it doesn't have to be a technical person at all. You are consultant to that company.

Mm-hmm.

Understanding. I think those are the things that we have learned from 2024 to today, uh, 2025 to today. We're having business conversations. It's not about technology. It's about how can I help your business thrive? What are the issues you're dealing with? Let's make a list. What are your priorities? What are you trying to get to? Like, understand the customer. We didn't have those before. Now we're becoming like a true consultant.

Yeah.

That's exactly what we're becoming.

That's, and that's what MSPs need to become more and more. Um, and, uh, and, and I think it's a, it's a challenge for a lot of them. And so, um, you know, man, it's, uh, you, I can't overstate the importance of that. It's like, have the strategic business conversation with the client, not the conversation about technology.

And to be honest with you, I mean, there should be like, uh, which there is a lot of people in our community. They should, we should be having lessons like this when we go to those conferences. It's to have a session of somebody that's done something successful within the AI to teach the rest of the MSP on how they're picking it. Like we need to share this. This is because that's the future for everybody. It's not that you are selling, you're not giving up your secrets.

Right, right.

It is really just advising so people don't mess up. with customers.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, all of us, if we didn't have customers, we won't be in business.

Yeah.

So I think sharing some of the successful stories about, uh, AI implementations, you know, Copilot or whatever AI has been built, those are good because I think a lot of MSPs, all of us would really gain from it. Like, uh, yeah. Hearing some good stories about how people did it and they were successful at it, what they're using, you know. Like I said, again, you know, we are in the AI era. This is what the opportunities are. It's like a war when there's too much going on. It brings in opportunities because everyone want a piece of it and the best chaos. That's something that I don't want to do. I want to make sure that my customers are not going to be part of this whole chaotic things like install something and then a year from now we say, ah, no more.

Yeah.

You know, like, ah, they don't like it. It's not working. It's not what you told us. You know, so we, we wanna make sure it's, uh, we build, if we have our customers, we gotta take our time understanding the customer and build something that really they can see a return on an investment. Otherwise, by the way, if you mess up this one, you lose your credibility and the trust.

Yeah.

And that can do it. So they, that's why there is like 2 sides of it. The good side, you can upsell, make your customer better. The other one, you can mess it up so badly. you get fired from even your MSP contract because you might— yeah, it's true. I mean, you know, those are the risks, like, you know, you got to look into.

Yeah, absolutely, man. Absolutely. I love it. Well, um, so, so, man, as we, uh, as we kind of start to wrap up, I'm— I, I've got a few more questions for you. Um, but one, one would be, what is, um, what's one of the mistakes that you've made along the way As you've been building your business that, you know, well, a mistake you've made that'd be helpful for people to know so they don't make the same mistake?

Trust but verify. So that's a mistake. When I'm talking, I'm gonna be a little clear about that. You know, when I was talking earlier about giving people Trusting, like people putting people at C-level exec. So yes. Yeah. Yeah. Trust at the beginning, but you have to verify because sometimes there's some decisions who are made who are very bad. They can affect the company as a whole.

Mm-hmm.

So, yep.

For me, as much, even when I said earlier, I, I concentrate on doing my thing, but I still know what's going on in general without being involved. Because sometimes there's things I wish I can go back and then kind of redo it because I trusted somebody on to do, taking the right thing and they do the absolutely wrong thing and it end up being very costly.

So yeah, makes sense.

So, so for me it's really a big mistake. It's, it's the trust, like just trust and verify, make sure that, that, that, that, that's, we are in a business. So things change every day.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, uh, and that's why it's important to have like clear guardrails on decisions. Like, uh, with when people are making decisions, it's like, hey, you get, you can make decisions up to this point and then we need to have a conversation about it or that kind of a thing. But it totally makes sense that it's like, yeah, you've got to verify that things are right. And it sounds like there was a hard situation that ensued. Um, so with, with, with that particular situation, but, um, yeah, makes sense, man.

And again, uh, like the, the, the, the other mistake, it's, uh, choose your people wisely.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and don't take anything personal, by the way.

Yeah.

I think this is exactly what, uh, did hurt me through the years. It's, uh, the personal thing because Anything that happens internally, whatever, it affects me personally. And I think as we grow as a business or any MSP grows, we need to learn to be more like tougher. It doesn't mean it's— I'm, excuse my French here— like not being an asshole, whatever, but be firm. It's a business. So like at the end of the day, like I told you earlier, you got to think about the whole everyone else in the Yeah. To your people as well.

Yeah.

Awesome, man. Well, thank you for sharing that. I always like to end with a quick lightning round. So it's like, first thing that comes to mind, short answers. Okay. So first thing is, what's a belief or something that you've changed your mind about recently?

In every like business and any area, anything.

Yeah.

Take care of your family first.

Hmm.

Like, hey, you can be nice, but you cannot be too nice because people will— no, no, no, it's true. People take advantage of you.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. When you're too nice. Yeah. They feel like, for me, if you ask me like one big thing, it's my family.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, yeah, like I always—

absolutely.

Like, for me, it's family is the biggest thing. It's, it's everything to me. When I say family, it's not just my wife and kids. Talking about my family, cousins, uh, brothers, sisters. And one thing that I've learned, do not judge your family. They come into your life, so take them as they come. Friends, you can handpick. You are the responsible for it because you can choose your friends.

Yeah.

But family, they come into your life, you have no choice. So you gotta accept them for who they are. And when you go start, this is the lesson I've learned in life. You cannot go to a 55-year-old or 60-year-old and tell them, are you doing this wrong? You think they've done it for 60 years? You think they're gonna change today? Accept them for who they are. They're your brother, your sister, whatever. Accept them. That's how they are.

Yeah.

Make peace with it and move on. Otherwise, no, it will affect you because you're trying to, but if you let it go, things are gonna be all right.

Yeah.

Good.

Okay. So, so next question. What's something you've been curious about lately?

AI.

I, I had a feeling. I had a feeling that—

No, no, it's serious because it's, uh, I'm learning every day something new. It's funny, the more I think I know and the more I meet smarter people and I'm learning something new and that's pretty amazing. That's why I was telling you, I don't know where we are going because the more people I meet when it comes to this AI thing, it's, I'm learning every, every day I'm learning something new. I don't know what is the end of it. Like, yeah.

Probably no, probably no, probably doesn't end, right? Yeah.

Probably until the next Whatever after AI.

Yeah, yeah, whatever comes next, right? Okay, what's one non-negotiable in your daily routine?

One non-negotiable in my daily routine?

Something you can't live without every day.

Talking to my kids, no joke, because you know what, that's one thing that I do see. I was traveling the past 2 days, I haven't been home yet, so I'm gonna see them tonight, but I make sure that I call them every day before they go to school.

Mm-hmm.

You know, that's something, it's for me, it's not negotiable. Like it's, I have to call both of my boys just to tell them I love them. Have a good day. That's it.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's okay. For me, that's like a non-negotiable. Yeah.

Awesome.

Yeah.

And then, uh, and then what's your, uh, what's the, what's your go-to way to unwind or, or reset or relax?

I play, uh, soccer on Sundays now with the older guys.

Okay.

All right. Yeah, seriously, it's, uh, been amazing. I just started about 8 weeks ago. Every Sunday I go play and, uh, it's been, uh, unbelievable. Actually, I have a picture here showing me. No, because I haven't played forever, but I swear, you know, I'm in another world for 2 hours. I think about nothing else.

That's awesome. I'm like, I love that.

Yeah. And if it helps me, just, you know, the running, whatever. And yeah, that's one thing. It's funny, I, I've been wanting to find something that helps me get the stress out. I used to go for walks and, you know, runs, whatever. Soccer has been my best thing right now because I'm with the right people. It's fun. 2 hours, you don't think about anything else.

Exactly.

Yep.

That's me and basketball, you know, 3 mornings a week usually. It's great. So agree.

But that's exactly my point. Yeah. So you found your thing. Mine, it's like it's soccer and I love it.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then what's a book or idea or a piece of advice that has most shaped you?

One book, forget the writer, but it's called Hope Is Not a Strategy.

Okay.

All right. But we'll have to, I will have to check that one out. I have definitely heard that title before, but I don't think I've read the book of that title.

It shaped me. I'm serious because you, it's true. Hope is not a strategy. You gotta do something about it. You have to read that book. It's an amazing book.

Okay. Yeah, I will make sure that that goes on the list. Well, man, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time. And sharing with everybody who's listening. So, and just where's— if somebody wanted to get in touch with you, where's the best place for people to connect or follow what you're working on?

So LinkedIn, I live on LinkedIn. So that's what I'm, you know, that's— I mean, that's my professional platform. So that's where I share everything. So please, anybody can feel free. I'm talking to any MSP if they need any advice. advice or whatever. Well, just to talk.

I'm here.

Reach out to me. I'm very accessible. Um, everybody knows me in the community. Reach out to me. I'm here.

So I can confirm that this is one of the, uh, one of the most generous guys in the, in the MSP space.

A lot of people would say I talk a lot, but you know what? That's how I was brought up to this world, and I'm not gonna change today. Not at my age. It's like, you know, there's one thing I go by. It's Be a good person every day. That's it. If I can help somebody every day, that's why not?

Yeah.

You know, do something good. That's my religion. Doing good things in life. Help others if you can. That's it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Well, thank you very much. This has been very helpful and really appreciate it. And we will talk to you soon, man.

Thank you so much, Brian. As always, I hope, I don't know if you're gonna be going to a Rider Boom or not, but, uh, That's what I'm going to be next. Excellent.

Thanks for listening to the $10 Million MSP Podcast. I'd like to encourage you to take just one insight that you heard today and put it into practice because small shifts create big momentum. If you enjoyed the episode, make sure to rate and subscribe on your favorite platform so you never miss a conversation. Thanks again for tuning in, and I'll see you in the next episode.