159. Lead Takers vs. Lead Makers | Megan Beattie

We have to be able to make a lead when they're— the fish aren't jumping in the boat. If people stop shopping and the phone stops ringing, that also means lead aggregators are going— that a lot of people are, you know, dependent on right now— those numbers are going down too. And then what happens with lead aggregators is when they don't have enough shoppers, you know what happens? They open the parameters and all of a sudden you're getting, you know, windshield repairs and you thought you signed up for window leads, right? And so a variety of that's going to happen as, as the lead market shifts in our industry. So, the answer is we really have to be good at converting a multitude of leads or we're going to be stuck like a one-trick pony. And, you know, a lot of those companies go out of business and we don't want to see that happen to anybody that we care about and that built a business in our industry. This is the Wealthy Contractor Podcast brought to you by G4 Marketing. Interviews with today's top home improvement entrepreneurs about marketing, sales, money, money, mindset, and lifestyle. Now here's your host, Brian Kaskavalciyan.

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Wealthy Contractor Podcast. This is Brian Kaskavalciyan with G4 Marketing Group, and today I've got her back, Megan, Megan Beattie. Megan loves marketing. Hi Megan, the marketing queen of the home improvement industry. Welcome back.

Thank you. Thank you for that warm introduction. I don't know if anyone will ever top you on introductions after that.

It has been way too long. And you got to come back one or two more times, at least this year. Because things I think are going to change a little bit this year. And I want to make sure that our listeners are kind of up to date on what's going on. And I think you are one of those people that has the pulse on what is going on out there. So we're going to start there. But before we do that, remind everybody, because it's been a little while since you've been here, remind everybody a little bit about who you are and your background, and then we'll jump into it.

Okay, wonderful. Yeah. So basically, I really started my marketing career back when I was 17. And what I did is I actually telemarketed for vacation memberships. And so that was really where I cut my teeth in the marketing area. You know, it was one of those things where you, you walk into the mall and you see a car or an RV or a boat and it says enter to win. And what you would do is you would go and put your little name and phone number in and you'd get a call from Megan from the campground who wanted you to come to my campground and take a high-pressure sales pitch tour and then hopefully sign up for a camping membership or resort membership. And so I really learned from, I guess, what you would consider in our industry, probably one of the hardest leads to convert. Which is a sweepstakes lead. And so that's really where I learned everything. So, you know, I kind of started out, you know, it's like price conditioning. I started out with the hardest. So the easier leads really don't seem that tough to me. So I ended up at my first real home improvement company in 2007 in the Kalamazoo, Michigan area. And I just worked my way up from an entry-level telemarketer to after about a year, I was placed in the marketing director position. And I would develop programs inside of Sam's Club for lead generation. I developed canvassing programs, which is actually where I met my Tony Hody. He actually was brought into the company to teach me canvassing. They knew I could build call centers. They knew I could build, build a show and event program, but I had no experience with door-to-door at all. So Tony came in, taught me what he knew. I took that and ran with it. I left that company in 2009 and I ended up at the company that sort of what you would call my claim to fame, All Weather Seal of West Michigan. I wound up there in 2010. I was brought there to start a canvassing division, which I did right away, but we found out that Like with most clients that I work with, even nowadays, you know, they thought they had a problem with no canvassing leads, but they really had a call center problem, a confirmation problem, canvassing problem, a show and event problem, you know, and most of it just being programs that weren't developed yet. You know, they were very small, like most of our, our listeners, you know, they were operating off of previous customer referral business, you know, a lot of word of mouth very early on doing, you know, just over a million bucks a year in business. And really bringing me in to build those departments out is what, you know, led to our growth. So for the first 6 years, we didn't do any digital. We did no TV, we did no direct mail, no traditional forms of advertising. So I was responsible for filling the sales schedule with canvassing leads, old telemarketing and sweepstakes leads, and aggressive show and event leads. So we built the company that way for 6 years before we really got into any sort of inbound or media. So, you know, I guess you could say that that's really what led me to learning everything that I know about the industry. During that time, I also learned 10-step selling, one-call close, And so I developed a training system and started recruiting and training salespeople at that same company. Long story short, now I left there last year in 2021, and they did $17 million last year. They're on track to do over $20 million this year. So now we've got media and TV, and they have a much healthier lead mix of inbound and outbound. But, you know, shows and events, they're still one of their highest performing lead generation sources. So, you know, and then when I left there last year, I was pursuing consulting full-time, and my husband and I now run a retail operation, which is a fence company here in Western Michigan. So that's what fills my time now. And my consulting career has really taken off beyond where I, where I even had seen it going. So, but that's what happens when you provide good value to people and, and help them see results. So that brings me to today.

So, and not be, and not be full of crap like marketing people. We were just, we were just, I was just telling Megan before I turned on the recording, us marketing people, We are so reluctant to ever like recommend other marketing people because so many of them just, they don't know what they're talking about. They're full of it. They could sell, they could sell their, their program, quote unquote program, but whether or not it actually works is a whole nother story. And fortunately for me, I'm able to recommend Megan. I don't know how many of my clients have worked with or are working with Megan now. But she's like one of the only people I think in this industry, and of course, you know, Tony, but Tony went off and started a successful window and bathroom company now. We just released— when we're recording this episode, I think Tony's episode just went out. So Megan will be a little bit behind, behind Tony. All right, so cool. Well, you know, the other interesting thing that I always thought was so fascinating about you and about your experience was the whole— it wasn't just— you weren't just the marketing director at this company, you were actually the sales manager too. So not only did you fill all of the appointment slots, but you actually managed all the sales too.

Yes, we— well, and I had a partner in that. Like, the, the sales manager that was there when I was there is still there to this day. He's been with the company a very long time, and he's a great guy. But we— he didn't have a training system, and that was really the biggest thing, you know, once I came in and I learned the One Call Close 10 Step Selling System, I just saw so many areas that, you know, traditionally we would train marketing for, you know, we would train marketing for certain things. And, and because we had great marketers that were coming out of training and knowing the process and writing leads, you know, like their, their life depended on it, I knew we could do the same thing with the sales team. It was just a matter of putting the right processes in place. So while they still— I was the Director of Sales and Marketing is what my title was, because I would kind of help out in both areas. But the last 5 years, I recruited every salesperson we brought in the door. So I created a recruiting program and process to where we would sell, you know, salespeople on the opportunity. And we had a fair amount. We had one, one gentleman that I had helped train, and he ended up doing $2.8 million his first year, and he'd never done this before. So, you know, seeing it change people's lives was really what made me passionate about it. I could take someone without a college education and teach them something. In 3 to 6 months, they're making more money than they ever dreamed, you know. So that's part of the exciting part. I know you, you get passionate about helping people too. We both share that. So that was one of those things I really, I really saw and liked as well. But yeah, I mean, they've got a great— they're using the same very similar training system still to this day, and they've got— I think they have 17 or 18 reps right now. I mean, they're, they're doing a great job with it. So, wow.

So I was making some notes of some things we have to unpack out of all of what you just said, but let's start with Give me a sense of— so we're right at the beginning of May. Apparently today, I haven't been able to really check the news yet. But apparently today, interest rates today or soon, interest rates are going to get jacked way up. What is the state of lead generation right now from, from where you sit?

Well, very similar to what I heard on Tony's podcast as well. You know, right now the fish are still pretty much jumping in the boat. Like we've said that a few times. And what I mean by that is leads are still easier to come by now than they were, I guess I would say pre-COVID, you know, we are still sort of reaping the benefit of people working on their home and looking to improve their home. But as you and I both know, at some point it is going to level out, at some point, it's not going to be near as easy as it is currently. And those of us that own a business in this industry, I mean, we really have to look at that and think about the fact that we have to plan for when it's not like this, you know, if we could hire a trained monkey and give them a script, and they could set an appointment at this point in our, in our industry. But it will not always be that easy as things get tougher, as you know, you know, as things tighten up in terms of interest rates, in terms of, you know, the big R word everybody's talking about, in terms of all the different ups and downs that we've seen over the years in the economy, we really just have to be prepared with a more healthy lead mix. Because what ends up happening is when people stop shopping for non-essential items, right, the inbound leads slow down. And so if we 100% dependent on just inbound leads coming to us through, you know, media and, and Google and TV, if that's our entire lead mix, we're going to be in a lot of trouble when shoppers stop actively pursuing companies as often as they are now. So we have to find ways to, you know, I know you have a great repeat and referral program at G4, the cookie program, a lot of my clients use that too. And, you know, we've got to find ways to kind of talk about that loyalty now when the, when the time is, you know, going well, because we're going to need it when that time comes when it's not going so well.

Yeah, I've been begging people like here at Accelerate, at all, anywhere I can, please, whether it's me or it's somebody else, or you do it yourself, just do it. Please make sure that you develop, put a fence around your customers, because you're gonna need them soon. We don't know when. So you, you said inbound, and you, and you talked a little bit about what inbound is, but let's, you know, here in home improvement industry, we talk about take marketing, we talk about take marketing. You just used inbound, which is take marketing. Can you draw the distinctions between the two? I know for some of you listening, you already know, but let's just draw those distinctions, and then let's talk about lead mix and the importance of lead mix.

Absolutely. I think the best way to describe lead takers versus lead makers is really to talk about how— and it was an old video that I actually watched Rick Grasso do where he talked about there's different classifications of leads. Leads, and that is A, B, and C leads. And the A lead is really our lead-taking. That is the person that's definitely making a purchasing decision in the next 30 days. They're actively shopping, right? So this is our media lead, this is our Google lead, this is our TV lead where, oh, that company looks nice, let me give them a call. I'm definitely looking into windows or bathrooms in the next XYZ amount of time. And so we have our A lead, and, and the great news about that lead, as you know, Brian, is, is they're shopping, right? The bad news about about that lead though is also they're shopping, right? And so not only are those people going to call us and be much easier to set than a lead that we have to manufacture, but those leads are also the ones that are getting 2, 3, 5, 20 estimates when we go to close, right? So there's, there's pros and cons to each of these different lead types. Then you have the B lead. That's the customer that's definitely making a purchase in the next year or two, and they're willing to take an estimate to get ahead of the game and for planning purposes, right? And I think we run into a lot of these whether we're an inbound a taker or a maker in terms of leads. We run into these in sort of both categories. This is the one that teeters, you know, this person is definitely making a purchase, but their urgency level isn't at the point where they're ready to act. They're not the A lead that's actively seeking companies. They just passively may see an ad online and, and maybe they want to enter to win, right? Or maybe they, you know, say, whoa, you seem like a nice person, I'll sign up with you at my front door. You know, the canvassing lead can, can get a lot of B leads as well. And then we have the C lead, and the C is the lead that didn't really have a future plan of doing the project necessarily until they talked to us and they're willing to get a quote just because we're either easy and in the area, it's nice and convenient, or we're offering some sort of special, right? And so they'll take a lead. Now, the bad news about that lead is it's much harder to manufacture that lead because you must create the urgency yourself. You know, they didn't even think about windows before you showed up, but they do have 20 or 30-year-old wood windows. So there is a possibility that they'll be doing that project if we ask them ask the right need-uncovering questions and really create the urgency. Now, the good news about that lead, I mean, that's the sweepstakes lead all day long. That's the aggressive outbound marketed canvas lead. You know, the pro to that is at the end, I mean, you come out and they made an impulse decision to have us come over. They usually make an impulse buying decision at the end. So, we have statistically a higher ticket, you know, they're not getting 20 estimates. They say, well, you seem like a nice company and we got to do something. And so let's just do it. So, you know, pros and cons to all lead types. What I really tell all my clients is in order to be successful long term in our industry, we really have to be good at all of them, right? We have to be able to make a lead when they're— the fish aren't jumping in the boat. If people stop shopping and the phone stops ringing, that also means lead aggregators are going— that a lot of people are, you know, dependent on right now, that those numbers are going down too. And then what happens with lead aggregators is when they you don't have enough shoppers, you know what happens? They open the parameters and all of a sudden you're getting, you know, windshield repairs and you thought you signed up for window leads, right? And so a variety of that's going to happen as, as the lead market shifts in our industry. So, you know, the answer is we really have to be good at converting a multitude of leads or we're going to be stuck like a one-trick pony. And a lot of those companies go out of business, and, and we don't want to see that happen to anybody that we care about that built a business in our industry.

So yeah, you know, it's interesting The other thing too that happens when things start to contract is lead cost starts to go way up. And, you know, I'm like, you know, when I talk to people and I see, oh, well, we have a 3% lead cost. Well, good for you. I hope it shows up on the bottom line, but you better get that up to 7 or 8 and just be able to, you know, spread your wings a little bit because that little tiny bit of money that you're relying on is not going to cut it when the market contracts and the number of leads contracts. One of the amazing things about this industry, you know, as good as anybody is— well, the bad side of it is you start at zero every single day in a home improvement company.

Yes, sir.

And but the good news of that is you could walk out your front door of your office, drive into a neighborhood a decent neighborhood, start knocking on doors. And if you knock on enough doors, somebody's gonna say yes and let you in, and you could make a sale and go back to your office with money in your pocket and a job. A lot of people don't want to do that though. It's ugly. And setting it up, a lot of people will say, well, shows don't work for us, canvassing doesn't work for us. So what are the pitfalls, or What are the things that make it not work?

Yeah, great question. And you're right, and for some cultures, it's not going to work. And the reasons for that are very clear. Number one, it's work. It's a nasty four-letter word that a lot of companies don't like, right? W-O-R-K. It's going to be work. Sure, it's easier to sit in the big leather chair and field the inbound lead that comes in and— but But you know, the question becomes when that doesn't happen, where is your destiny? Because, you know, those of us that know how to make leads, I mean, sure, that's going to be, that's going to be a little, you know, inconvenience when our inbound leads slow down. But we always have the opportunity to go out and create more at a fair or festival, we have an opportunity to create more canvassing, you know, we can go out and knock on doors and have leads tomorrow. And that's why canvassing is so attractive to so many companies. Because the return, if you do it right, is 100% there. And there's certain advantages with canvassing. Thing you can see the house. At shows and events, people can tell you that they don't need anything, and if you can't generate the conversation, you're just dead in the water. Most of the time, the reasons that these programs fail starts at the top, which is leadership. If you do not have a strong leader in place to run these departments, it will absolutely fail. I guarantee it. The other thing that makes it fail is if you do not have a process that everyone follows, that everyone is on the same exact system. If everyone is knocking doors a little bit differently, very hard to coach, train, and bring people upward if everyone is doing it 20 different ways. You know, I always use the analogy of baking a cake. You know, a process is like a cake. You know, Duncan Hines spent hundreds of years researching the right ingredients, right, in order to get the right taste at the end. And then, you know, someone comes in, and that's much like our canvassing process or our telemarketing process. I'll put a process in place, and someone comes in, and, you know, they they get one objection they couldn't overcome and all of a sudden they start developing their own way of saying things, right? And when they do that and when that happens, we end up with kind of a mess at the end. You know, it's like with the cake recipe. If you start adding in an extra egg here and there, or you think it needs just a little more sugar, you come down to the end and your cake doesn't taste very good. Well, it's the same thing with a canvassing program. Everyone needs to be on the same process. And literally it's all about planning. You know, one of the things that kills Canvas teams on top of that is, you know, losing street time. You know, they've got all this payroll because that's all your cost is with canvassing is payroll. And so if we don't empower people to write leads at the level we need them to, you know, we're going to have a huge payroll and we're going to have no leads to show for it. And so we have to make sure we maximize street time. Well, how do we do that? Well, we plan ahead. You have a good leader that plans the street territory, that researches the maps and makes sure that this is an area that number one will, you know, respond, meaning someone that has a neighborhood that's old enough house values, that's old enough, that's close enough together that you can walk house to house, right? That's maybe not— we don't all target certain house values, but some companies will say, well, I don't want to go to anything under $100 grand because they can't get financed. You know, there's certain, certain parameters, and you must set up your program to speak to that demographic you're trying to reach. What's canvassing— great about canvassing is controllable. Controllable. You know, I can pick the neighborhood, I can decide I'm only going to neighborhoods over $300,000, I can decide I'm only going to neighborhoods that are 30 years old, so they definitely have need. So the controllableness, that's really the draw. But it is a lot of work. You have to have a leader, you have to sell people on the position. But it's also a great way to get entry-level salespeople. You know, you bring them in and they start in the canvassing program. If they prove themselves, they can move into sales because they've already developed the skill set to overcome actions, you know. So same thing with events. If you don't have a process, events program is a logistical nightmare. If you don't have a coordinator that's handling the paperwork and handling the parking passes and coordinating what weekend you're going to what and what vehicle you're taking, which displays get set up, you have to have a person that can really take a hold of that and lead that. You know, they have one at All Weather Seal I put into place, you know, 2 years into my career there, and she is a godsend. They wouldn't be able to do it without her. She's Amazing. So, you know, you have to have the right people in place and the right leadership in order to make those programs work.

So let's talk a little bit about leadership. I know this is a big topic of LeadCon that's coming up in, I think, 3 weeks. And, you know, a lot of people here, when you first said leadership a few minutes ago, my immediate thought was, oh man, they're going to think it's got to be them and they don't want to run a Canvas program. I don't want to run a Canvas program.

Right.

Talk about leadership. It doesn't have to be the owner.

Owner.

No, that leads it, but the owner's got to put somebody good in place to make it happen. So what makes— what does this person look like? What, you know, and how do you as the owner lead this person? How does the leader lead the leader?

Right, great question. Absolutely. Yeah, I would not recommend the owner runs the canvassing team for many reasons. You're right about that. Number one, any, anytime you diversify everything you put on an owner's plate, you get less in every area, as you probably know, right? So if I have an owner that's trying to run a marketing department. Yeah, I mean, they're, it's, they're going to decrease their effectiveness in every other area because they're trying to do too much. Normally they're trying to wear all the hats and it just doesn't work out. So I would recommend putting someone in place and, and they have to have certain characteristics. You know, I'm going to go back to something we really rely on at my company and many of my clients, and it's something Bob Quillen taught me many years ago, which was they have to be honest, hungry, humble, and honeable. We call it the 4 H's. Bare minimum, if they don't meet those 4 H's, and I discovered that during the interview process, they're out. You know, there, there's certain things that we can't compromise. And one of them is integrity. The last thing we can do is put someone in place to run our company and find out later they're of bad character, because then we built an entire department around someone who is never going to do the job and we're going to have to babysit them, which you don't want. Right. So number one, we have to hire character and train skill. The skill to run the department can be found or can be trained. Excuse me. If we have the right person and if we have the right process for them to follow and put their team on. The other thing is, is that I recommend doing some sort of personality testing to make sure you have something, someone that has what's equivalent in the DiSC testing to a high D personality. That's the results-oriented personality type. If we try and have people lead departments and they don't have that piece, that D, they have a really hard time with accountability. They have a really hard time with having those difficult conversations with employees when they're not hitting numbers. Numbers. They have a really hard time with many of the tasks in leadership because it's just not ingrained in them. It's not something that they enjoy doing. You know, the end result isn't that important to them. And so we end up, you know, with someone that we pour all this time and effort into, and they're a personality type that's never going to hold up against accountability, you know.

And so, you know why I'm laughing? I'm sorry, because as you were talking, I'm frantically like writing things down that you're saying. And I'm thinking, oh my God, Megan says more in 4 minutes than most people say in an hour.

Well, thank you. I, you know, it's just, you learn this stuff going, and it's like, I feel like I owe it to people in our industry to share this because so many people, it's like they haven't heard it before.

I know.

I've only— and you know, Brian, it's only because I did it wrong so many times. And I paid the dumb tax. It was a very expensive dumb tax. And now I've learned that how it expensive it is to put an S personality in a leadership position. I have clients that this has happened to. They put an S personality in place. I say, I don't think that's a good idea. They come back and say, wow, they didn't work out. And I say, I know, right? And it's like, you know, I'm trying to save you that headache. Trust me when I say I've paid the price on this. You don't want to do it. Right. So the person, whether it's canvassing, events, call center, all of the above, we have to find good talent. They have to be of good character. And then they have to have that that dominant part of their personality that will take the department and really run with it. You know, otherwise, you're going to make yourself a professional babysitter, which none of us want to be. Let me tell you, that's not my favorite position in the company is professional babysitter.

Yeah. And you said, I mean, and this is great. I think I've heard you say this before. Hire character, train skill. Hire character, train skill. And train, but training skill requires having a process.

Yes, sir.

Now, you've already said it, and you said it really fast. This is like one episode where instead of putting it on like 1.2 speed, you probably want to put it on like half speed so you get everything that Megan says. But you talked about process earlier. So talk a little bit more about that, because this is, this is the concept. Hire character train, skill, as long as the character matches the profile that you want, and you want that high D personality. You said earlier about process, and you likened it to a recipe. So it's, you know, 2 parts this, 1 part this, half a part this, a quarter part this, very exacting. Talk a little bit more about that. And what is this? What does it kind of look like? Is it on paper? Is it video? Is it audio? Is it? And then what What is also one year when you've got it out in whatever format you've got it out? What does the training look like?

Great. Again, great questions. Yeah. So with like a canvassing, like I'm just gonna say for, you know, lack of a better term, we'll say outbound marketing. So whether it's events or canvassing, your process has to begin with exactly— you wanna start with the end in mind as, as we've discussed before on many calls. So we wanna look at what are the results that we want, and then we need to reverse engineer our process to get that result. So the first thing I I would say to myself is, how many leads do I need to have written and on the calendar in order to make this process and this program successful? So if I know I need 1 appointment from my canvassers per hour, I then need to write that down. And then I need to say to myself, do I have scripting in place that will write 1 appointment an hour when it's followed? And so scripting is a big portion of that, but the process itself— scripting is just a small portion of that. You know, the, the scripting is a part of the process, but we're talking the most successful successful companies with, with great programs like this, they process everything, which means when you come in, you go into the room to have your pre-shift meeting. When you sit down for your pre-shift meeting, you will have your yellow vest on for canvassing and your lanyard ID badge, and you will be ready to go for the day. We will then show a motivational video, and before we go out canvassing, we will discuss the appointments we need for today. Once we have that pre-shift meeting, we're going to all go to the car. Now, in terms of the car, the car should have been set up by the manager beforehand, which means the gas should already be in it. You know, which means the vehicle should be large enough to fit our entire team to take them out to the field. We should have our maps planned to where I know I have these 5 maps I'm going to and canvasser A is going to map 1, canvasser, you know, B is going to map 2. We really save a lot in our budget by planning ahead. A lot of people don't realize that the key to getting the most out of your canvassing and event programs is actually the planning way before the employees even show up. So our budget, our process has to do everything from the minute they show up until the minute we arrive back after our day. Everything should be processed. I need to know exactly how many doors that they need to hit in order to get to their quota. You know, we have to have a process for— we better be hitting at least 50, 60, 70 doors a day, whatever it might be. And then of those 50 doors a day I'm hitting, how many people are opening the door? Out of those people that are opening the door, how many conversations am I having? And then how many conversations does it take me to get one set appointment appointment on the schedule, right? So we're literally going to walk down every metric and have a process. Now the process must be written down, but video and audio is also a great helper to that process. Because a lot of times, like if we have a canvassing department or an events department, most of our employees' time is in the car. So why would we not want it on audio? Why would we not want it on video or something they can, you know, listen to on their way out to the field? So the process should be written down, but we also can support that with, you know, video and audio. And then we train people. You know, we come in and we have a specific training process. Nothing kills new hires faster than when they come in the front door and they look at a company that doesn't have their stuff together.

Yeah.

They come in and it's like, where's that training packet again? Wait a minute. Wait, wait, you're here for your first day? Oh, wait, you're here. Wait, you've been here for 3 days? Well, hang on, I gotta get you a training. And pretty soon the new hire goes, this doesn't look like what I signed up for. Right. So that process is really what also feeds the trust that the new hire has in us as a company. If they come in and they see a bunch of smiling faces and everyone's like, hey, this is how we do it. And they get to follow suit. There's a lot of trust built with that. But if they come in and it's, you know, the manager's flying over here and doesn't know what's going on over here, the left hand doesn't know what the right's doing. I mean, they figure that out pretty quick. And then they say, I think right now there's so many jobs out there, Brian, that people have their pick. So, you know, we have to be able to attract and keep good talent because they come in and they see, wow, this company really has their processes together. It's like when you walk into an Apple Store, you get the same process every single time. You walk in, you, you sit and look at all the little things they have, and they call your number and they serve you. They have their process figured out, you know. And so we have to do the same thing or we won't attract and keep good talent.

Well, and you know as well as I do, every great company in this industry, that's the level of detail and process and that they go into. I mean, as I'm sitting there listening to that, I'm thinking, damn, that sounds like a lot of work.

It is, it is. But if you want to control your own destiny, you know, I mean, what are— once you put that work in, it can never be taken from you. That's the difference. Inbound leads are going to come and go. If you put a process in place and you have one good leader, there's no limit to how large the department can grow. It's only limited by us. So, you know, and again, that may not be our entire marketing department, but that should be a portion of it so that, you know, when those inbound down lead influxes do happen, we can double down on canvassing. When the, you know, shows and events got canceled because of COVID everybody has to have a secondary plan. So, you know, no matter what department that might be, we're always going to see ebbs and flows in the economy. And we have to be able to adjust to that, you know, not just be sitting on our hands going, well, I don't know, the phone's not ringing. So I guess we'll just go out of business, right?

Yeah.

Like, you know, yeah, is it a lot of work? Sure. But, you know, the rewards from that as well, you know, if you build a long company with a lot of longevity and, and people stay a long time, I mean, the rewards from that are just endless. You, you can move these people in marketing into other positions in the company. They can move into sales one day. You have— there's a lot of opportunity when you have good people on the bus.

Yeah. And, and what I will say too, again, you know, it sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but— and I've said it here over and over and over again— the theme of Accelerate the this year was this: success leaves clues.

Love it.

And though— and then I, I didn't put it on the, on this cup, but I put, and those clues lead to shortcuts. So you don't have to figure out all of this stuff on your own. You could hire Megan, she'll put the whole thing together for you. You can hire John Anglis, my buddy John, he'll put a 10-step selling system together for you. As the leader, it's up to you to go out, and you don't have to do all of this work. There are people out there that have— that know this business inside and out. They know how to do it right. They know how to make it super profitable and super successful. Just go buy it from them.

Absolutely.

Just go.

I always recommend that, you know, with Tony Hody Consulting too, we have myself, Tony, and Chris Williamson. And Chris Williamson's an amazing consultant that built, you know, Renewal by Andersen's canvassing program. So we work really well together. If one of my clients need someone on site to teach them how to knock doors, I send Chris, and then Chris will do some coaching. I'll do some coaching. But when you want it done right, like, why would you not bring in the professional? Even if it costs you a little bit more upfront, it's just— it's the same thing that we tell people in the house. It might cost you a little bit more upfront, but in the long run, right, it's gonna cost you less. Yeah, it's the same thing, you know.

But it's like you said, once you have the process Once you've got this system in place, you just said it again too, is originally you said, where is your destiny? Like, and you just brought it up again. It's like you take your destiny now into your own hands. You're not now being controlled by the outside factors like interest rates, like inflation, like whatever is going to go on in the economy. I mean, who knows what's going to happen over the next year, right?

Well, and here's what you think about it. If people, if the lenders start stop lending money Right? You target your neighborhoods to home values that aren't affected by that.

Right.

Can, you know, canvassing gives you that option. You don't get that option with other areas.

That's right.

So yeah, that's exactly it. So you're not in a bunch of areas where no one can get bought even if they did finance with you.

Yeah. And the beautiful thing about going out and again, going back to one of the things we said originally, one of the bad things about the home improvement industry is you start at zero every day. But one of the good things is you can just walk out your door and go make manufacture opportunity. And it's— that's a beautiful thing.

Well, we see that too with call centers. You know, so many companies have old data that's just sitting in their database that they're doing nothing with. And then, you know, they call me and they'll say, well, we don't know what to do, we don't have enough leads. And I'm like, well, you've got 30,000 sitting in your database, what are you doing with those? Well, we don't have anyone to call those. Okay, well, I mean, since you already paid for those I mean, you know, let's— why not call them?

Oh, you know what, Megan? I need your help with something. Okay, after we're done, I need your help with something. You just reminded me of something. So let's quickly talk about— I want to do a whole episode with you just on call center. And when we say call center, we're talking— it could be one person, it could be a hundred.

I work with a lot of people that have one person fielding their leads, but they call me in during that time for a reason. That's because they want to set it up properly from the beginning. Which is great, actually.

How important is that? How important is having the right person saying the right thing on the phone with the right information on the phone?

Well, I mean, it's just the difference between success and failure, that's all. But really, I mean, the reality is, is that if you are starting out with one person and we train them properly, everyone that you bring in after that will also be trained properly. That's the only way you build a real team. It's actually easier to do that than for me to come in and you have 10 callers and I have, you know, unsell them on the way they've been doing it and resell them on the way they're going to be doing it, right? So there are a certain amount of challenges with that. But, you know, the difference the person on the phone makes, I mean, I can't even— I couldn't quantifiably explain it. I just look at numbers and I see the differences at every single client I work with. Like when we come in and we put in a new script or a new process. All of a sudden, you know, the sales team is going, what's the— the leads are different. The leads aren't any different. We just, we just planted different seeds on the phone that they may be harvesting when they get to the house now. So it's, it's, it's funny. And then sometimes the sales team doesn't like that, you know, they're used to a nice easy inbound lead. And then I have to work with a sales team too, because they don't know how to handle a Canvas lead. They don't know how to handle a sweepstakes lead that's, you know, meeting you in the driveway with their arms and they don't know why their wife signed them up for this stupid thing anyway. And, you know, those can be converted just as easily. I mean, I've been on the sales end of the position as well. So, you know, I already know what's coming. So it's an interesting mix because we do have to make the marketing and the sales team work together on this stuff because we can't bring in a lead that sales isn't used to and not prepare them for it. And then, you know, it's kind of like Tony says, a vegetarian, you know, eating meat for the first time, they have a pretty bad reaction, you know, at that point. So, and some companies have really disciplined sales teams teams, and they're just happy to have more leads. And some, you know, they're a little bit more on the non-accountability side. And so we have to come in and change that a little bit. And, you know, we don't come in and just rip off the Band-Aid, but we slowly put pieces in place that the sales team can see the benefit in. And, you know, we have them running different types of leads, and we teach them how to handle them better. So there's a lot of things there, but it all starts with the person they're talking to on the phone. You know, the great Wayne Gretzky always says that there's only one time to make a good first impression. Question, and it's so pertinent. If you can set yourself apart from all the other companies they're calling from that first phone call, the lead is yours to lose.

Yeah, absolutely. So we gotta wrap because we could go another hour.

We could probably too.

So you have a bit of a limited timetable in terms of working with clients. I'm not not sure— can I say why? Yeah, timetable. Yeah, so as of now, Megan is a little bit pregnant, a lot pregnant, and in about, you know, 12 weeks she's going to be really, really busy.

Yeah.

How long are you going to be out for? Do you mind my asking?

Yeah, no, that's fine.

Is that politically correct?

That's politically correct.

You can ask. Okay.

I only plan on taking about a month off because most of my consulting and coaching is remote anyway. Way, like with my retail operation, my husband's going to be running all the leads, of course, at that point. But as he's already— he's already starting to take that off my plate, which is nice.

Okay, good.

But yes, I'm going to be taking off from end of July to probably end of August, but then I'll be back in, back going. And I'm, I'm pretty booked up through May and into June. I mean, I have a lot of clients right now, and it's going really well. We're getting a lot of great results. But I'm really going to be focusing on the end of the year and, and filling my consulting schedule at time too.

Tell us, because I— look, like I said at the beginning, I don't usually come on and do promotions. But in her case, in this person's case, if you can get her and you work with her and you do what she tells you to do— don't hire her if you're— don't hire anybody if you're not going to take their advice, right? Megan is somebody that if she tells you to say it this way, this word after that word after this word. Do it exactly the way she says it. Don't change a word. Don't leave a word out. Yeah, do it exactly the way she tells you to do it. Listen to what she has to say, and she will make— help make you very successful. Tell people what you— what does your program look like?

Yeah, absolutely. Most of the time I get called into a company that needs some sort of help with lead conversion. So it's either, you know, we're bringing in a lot of raw leads and we're not converting into set appointments, or, you know, we just don't really know what our conversions even should look like. And so what I do is I come in, I look at what they're currently doing, and then I take some scripting and I put in place basic inbound scripting. I put in place how to handle the two-party or one-party objection handling. I tell them how to answer the questions that most people are calling and asking. And we've just added one recently that everyone's getting, which is, how far out are you guys in terms of lead time? You know, so I teach them how to handle, you know, how long is this going to take, what brand do you Give me an average price over the phone. I don't want to have anyone over until I find out how much this is going to cost. You know, so I teach how to handle those questions on the front end so that we can have the most success with converting every single phone call that comes into our office that we may or may not want. We also set up qualifications. There's some companies that are residential only, some run residential and commercial, some will say we'll take repairs, some say we don't want to run repairs, some will run trailers and mobile homes, some some won't. So we really identify your target market. And then we write our scripting to sort of weed out and look for the people that we don't want, and to really give a really great experience on the phone to the ones we do want. And so I come in and I put these scripts in place. And then the most important piece, it's not just the script, it's the training of your people on the why behind the script. That's really my key to success. I could sell scripts all day long, I I refuse to, and there's a reason. If I send someone a script, even now, even my clients that trust me and love me, and I send them a script, they read it and they say, I don't know if I like this. Then we go through the training. I explain the why behind everything we say, and they say, oh, we love this. Right? And so it's so interesting how their perception shifts, but it's just because they're not understanding why. And that's really the key. You know, I could give someone a script and say, say this exactly. And if they say it exactly, they'll have success. If I teach them the why behind what they're saying, though, Brian, then they can actually think for themselves.

Yeah.

And they can, you know, they know when it's appropriate. They know when it's appropriate to step off and when it's appropriate not to then. So the training behind it, and I do those in Zoom calls, usually weekly for about 90 days. That's— so if you have a call center that's predominantly inbound or some inbound and outbound, it only takes me about 90 days to get things pretty much in order for you to where they're, they're running. And then a lot of my clients too, I help them recruit that person. You know, I do some second interviews, you know, I give them phone screenings, I teach them what to say and how to screen out the wrong people, ads to use, you know, so it's kind of an all-encompassing thing because it's not just about the script, it's about getting the right person, it's about leadership, etc.

So yeah, so you're not just gonna say, oh, hey, go hire a leader, you're actually going to help them determine what that person needs to look what the profile is, and then actually help them recruit that person. Fantastic.

And I have to work with that person, so I can tell, you know, I can tell that it, it helps their organization because then I can say, hey, you know, I can see from day one this person is, is not going to get it. And being very transparent, it saves them a lot of time and money, you know, for me being honest with them about that.

Yeah, you know, it's funny, I'm— as, as I'm listening, we're talking about scripting and the importance of the psychology of it. I remember And remember, you know, my mentor Dan Kennedy taught me marketing, good effective marketing, to understand it. It's really, it's behavioral, the behavioral psychology and math.

Yes.

Understanding the economics of your business, how it relates to, to leads. That's why, you know, it's so important to know the numbers. So the, the people that I was meeting with just now, they have a nice business. Business. You know, they keep saying, oh, but we're not good at this, and we're not good at that. But, you know, look, they were going through— it was a pretty in-depth meeting. We were actually going through and kind of coming up with a plan for them over the next 5 years. And they didn't realize that they've become millionaires from this business. Now, they don't have all of this in place that you're talking about. What they do have in place is two very dedicated, hardworking husband and wife owner, owners, they provide amazing experiences for their, for their clients. They have great reviews, great relationships, and they just need to turn some screws. But I wanted to know these numbers. How many appointments did you set? How many inquiries? That was, that was a reach. They didn't know that. They didn't know exactly how many, how many appointments they had set, what their exact conversion rates were. And so I sent them away and I said, look, we gotta know these numbers so we can build, build your plan. And it's, it's so interesting that, you know, when we know the math, and then we get the why behind— here's why we're saying the things that we're saying, here's why we're using the message in the, in the script when we're facing somebody at a home show or at their front door, or the, the ad that we're placing in that magazine, here's why we're saying the words that we are. And then when they call, I mean, it just— all of that, it just makes so much sense. But it's so much— it's not easy. It's not just— you can't just slap some shit out there and hope that it's gonna work.

It's—

it's all of this stuff is— is— it's meticulously crafted and thought through. And, you know, and again, you don't have to do it on your own, right? You're bringing in— there are experts out there that can help. Right.

So anyway, that's ideal. But it's very true. You know, you have to understand the numbers. I, I had someone call me for, for help the other day. And I said, well, I mean, and they said, what are you trying to sell me? I said, well, you called me, I'm not really sure. And then I said, and then I said, well, do you have a lead conversion problem? And they said no. And I said, well, how many are you getting in per month? 300. How many are on the schedule? 50. Okay, well, you do have a lead conversion problem. Yeah, now I'm gonna mystery shop you and send you the call so you can hear that you have a lead conversion problem because nothing will convince someone of that other than proof, right? So, and then, and then we go from there and then we say, well, how can we change this? First thing I would say is I don't know who you're paying to get you leads, but if they told me they were all in, the other ones were unqualified, I said if I had a vendor sending me 250 unqualified leads a month, I'd have a lot of questions.

Yeah.

So, you know, there's that piece too. I sometimes look at that and say, oh, we, this vendor is not giving our return.

So yeah. What do you— do you know what you're presenting on at LeadCon yet?

Probably call center will be one of the items, of course, as it usually is. But then also, I'm pretty sure I'm doing something on recruiting and/or leadership as well, because I do have a recruiting system. I have a recruiting manual for installation too. I mean, because I've had to recruit installers. So that's, which is more outside the box because their resumes are not on Indeed. So you have to, you have to definitely go for further. So I'm talking about recruiting. So it'll be recruiting in a few different areas. I'm not sure if I'm going to cover just like the phone screening that we do initially to weed out the wrong people. I'm not sure, but it's going to be something similar to that. I just haven't put the, the presentations quite together yet.

Cool. Yeah, I'm going to talk about, I'm going to talk about crack cocaine and broccoli.

Oh man, presentation.

It's a variation on what I did at Top 500 last year. But yeah, Tony's event, I don't know if this will get out before Tony's event, but that's 3 weeks from today, isn't it? 25th 25th and 26th.

Yep, or 26th and 27th, I think.

Is Dan gonna— okay, I'm not gonna give away what he did, but is he gonna do the same thing he did at the last one?

He is, yeah.

Really?

Our theme song. So, oh, okay. He's excited about it. He's, uh, definitely crafted his— he's definitely honed. We did some professional studio recording time just last month, so he's really come along. Yeah, yeah. So he just released another song. So, but yeah, so he has definitely honed his, his singing and rapping ability. So I think it's better than last year.

So okay, cool. Actually, I don't know the episodes, and I'm sorry, but Dan, Megan's husband and partner in the fence business, I interviewed him and Megan before, so I'd go back and listen to Megan again. I would listen to this episode, and I would listen to it in a way where you can really pay attention. Because I really, you know, no joking around, Megan has so much experience and really is one of the sharpest people in this industry. And the amount of information that you gave off here in whatever it's been, 45 minutes, has been just awesome. But it's worth a second, a second listen. I know I say that every once in a while. I usually don't say it about full episodes, but I'm going to definitely say it about this one. And then she will be live at Tony's thing in 3 weeks, as will I. So hopefully—

26th and 27th in Columbus, Ohio.

Oh, 26th and 27th, not 20th. Okay, Columbus, Ohio.

Yes, sir. I heard you were excited about coming to Columbus. So yeah, you were. It's always where you've wanted to visit. Oh, one more thing I was going to bring up. You were asking Tony the most interesting festival or fair that he's ever done on The Last Call. I thought I have to bring up the fact that we signed up one time for a Wizard of Oz festival. That would be the—

honestly. And you made leads out of it.

We wrote leads. Yep. I don't know if any of them sold, but we definitely— I mean, but to get in, it was like $40. So who wouldn't? Yeah.

Oh, out of curiosity, just out of curiosity, those vacation You mentioned the gimmick in the mall with the car. Hey, sign up to get the car. What was conversion to a lead from card to lead on those? Do you remember?

Probably about 10 to 12%. So if we get 10— Yeah, yeah.

That's pretty good.

Yeah, we would get people to drive in, but we'd offer them a free gift and they have all their gimmicky stuff. You win either a Rolex-style watch, which was retailed at $9,000.

Rolex-style?

Watch? 7-day, 6-night vacation in Florida. Of course, you have to find your own airfare, and you will experience a timeshare pitch when you get there. Okay, a 36-inch flat-screen TV, or $2,000 in cash. Now everyone won the watch or the vacation. And I signed my parents up for it once. And my dad says, next time you want $10 that bad, which is what I made on all of them, he said, I'll just give it to you. So that was about it for me after that. But no, I— it taught me so many lessons that I still use today. It's crazy, right?

Listen, if you could flip that lead from a card. I mean, talk about nebulous. That's as nebulous as it gets. I mean, sign up to get this car. Oh yeah, it's anybody and everybody.

And then come camping with us.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I've always been fascinated by, by that deal. I could never do it.

But we also ran one out of New York. So there was one campground in Lake George, New York, And we telemarket for that one as well. So I got to talk to all the people up in New York, honey, you want to go camping in New York?

Yeah.

On the phone, let us know if we want to go camping in New York. So, you know, I got a lot of good— a lot of my clients are out on the East Coast. So I'm already— I already know how to deal with them now, you know?

Yeah. Hey, Megan, tell everybody how they can find you.

Yeah, you can find me in a couple different places. You can send me an email, and that is Megan, M-E-G-A-N, at TonyHody.com. And that's tonyhoty.com. You can find me on Facebook. I do have a business page and it's called Megan Knows Marketing, so you can find me there as well. I post a lot of great content, not only, you know, things that are relative to our industry but mindset in general. And then you can also find me on LinkedIn. I, I do a fair amount of promoting on LinkedIn as well, so you can find me there also. So any of the above are great ways to get a hold of me. And then if you have any more questions, I can always set up a phone screening and we can do a discovery call and figure out how I can help.

Cool. And you can always reach out to us and we will push you over and make sure that you get introduced to Megan.

Thank you.

Cool. Well, Megan, thank you so much.

Thank you.

I'm looking forward to seeing you guys in a few weeks. And I thank you so much for being here again. And like I said, come back again, we'll set it up. I want to go a little deeper into the whole call center thing and recruiting.

Okay, would love to. Thank you.

All right, everybody, hang out for a second. So to everybody else, until next time, this is Brian Kaskavalciyan with G4 Marketing Group, and this is the Wealthy Contractor Podcast. Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Wealthy Contractor Podcast. Let me ask you, did it help you look at your business in a different way? Did it spark an idea or ideas that you hadn't thought of before? Do you have a list of action items that you can take and implement into your business or your life today? I really hope so. If it did, I'd like to ask you a favor. Would you leave a 5-star review of the podcast? By doing so, you'll help other contractors find the podcast more easily so that we can help them achieve more success, wealth, and freedom. And before you go, make sure you subscribe to the Wealthy Contractor Podcast so you get access to the latest episodes as soon as they're available. We're always striving to provide you with great content, so you don't want to miss what's coming up. In fact, if you haven't already, make sure you go to thewealthycontractor.com and get your free copy of my latest book, The 7 Secrets to Becoming a Wealthy Contractor. Just pay shipping and handling, and I'll take care of the cost of the book. So until time. This is Brian Kaskavalciyan.