Brett Cohen - Ep 54 - How To Get Out Of Your Own Way And Grow Your Business

This is the Wealthy Contractor Podcast brought to you by G4 Marketing. Interviews with today's top home improvement entrepreneurs about marketing, sales, money, mindset, and lifestyle. Now here's your host, Brian Kaskavalciyan.

Hello and welcome to the Wealthy Contractor Podcast. This is Brian Kaskavalciyan with G4 Marketing Group. And today my special guest is Brett Cohen from Kitchen Saver. And, um, I'm excited to interview Brett. He's got a lot of, uh, good stuff to share with us. Um, before we get into that though, um, I wanted to give you an opportunity to head over to our website and just get registered. And by registering at our website, you'll get access to— not only will you get the podcasts immediately as they go out, but there's a bunch of other goodies there for you through the Wealthy Contractor Program. So it's just very simply go to www.thewealthycontractor.com. Www.thewealthycontractor.com. Head over there when we're done and, uh, check out what we've got over there for you. So, Brett, thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me, Brian. I'm very excited to be on your show.

Cool. So, um, I met Brett, what, maybe a year ago? Um, a little bit more, actually. I think it's been a little bit more. Yeah, he's a, he's a G4 client. His company is called Kitchen Saver. Why don't you give everybody— you have a great story. Why don't you give everybody kind of the 2-minute version of your story?

Well, I got into the business the old-fashioned way. I married into it. Basically, I actually was going to become a rabbi and after getting married to my wife, decided I wasn't going to do that. So I went into actually nonprofit fundraising. Which is great because it's sales at the heart and you pull at people's heartstrings and you get them to give money. But what ended up happening was that my father-in-law kept on asking me to come on board with the business. And finally we came to a deal that I couldn't refuse. And I promised him 2 years and he said after 2 years, if I wasn't happy, I could leave. The one caveat was I had to give him 6 months notice. And the following week, I started working at the company, and at that time we were also selling bath fitter. We were the, at that point, the second largest bath fitter operator in North America. And I started in the warehouse sweeping floors. And what happened throughout the years is that he started putting me into every department possible so I could learn everything about the business. From when I was in the warehouse, assisting installers, basically learning every aspect. I worked the mall pavilions, I worked the booths, I worked the home shows. The call center. I ran the call center. I went into sales. I basically loved sales. And then one day he said to me, I need you to come into management, which was like the worst day of my life because I always thought commission sales were going to be terrifying and they ended up being the greatest thing I ever could have done for myself. But management was, you know, being chained to a desk and doing work. But to be honest with you, it was, it was great because I started getting brought into the inner circle with decision-making. And other things like that. And fast forward in 2011, my father-in-law ended up selling his bath fitter division to his best friend who operates the largest bath fitter franchise in North America. And we had this kitchen company that I had been spending some time on and we'd had it since the 1980s, but it was always kind of left to the side. And around that same time, I started taking more of a greater interest around 2010, 2011 comes by, 2012, and suddenly, you know, we're focusing more and more on refacing and how do we build this thing. And in 2013, I bought the company from my father-in-law, and I just finished paying him off in May, which was very exciting.

Awesome. Congratulations.

Thank you. It was one of the best checks I have ever written. What really was incredible about the whole process was that back then we were doing a little bit under $1 million, maybe $1.2 maybe about 10 kitchens a month, 12 tops. Now we're edging towards 9.5, God willing, $10 million, would love to see it, and 55 installs a month. So we're, we're very proud of where our little rinky-dink refacing company has, has gone over the years. That's my story in a nutshell.

That's, that's, that's amazing growth. You know, before we got started, you said something to me about the business that you're really in. I told you I was going to ask you about it. Can you just say it again for everybody to, to hear?

Absolutely. I am in the sales and marketing business that just happens to be really great at doing kitchens.

So that's really, that's really the key to being successful in this business. I shouldn't say the key, but it's a mindset key where You ask people, and this is something anybody that's heard me speak has heard me say that line. And any time that I ask that question, people have gotten better with the answer. It used to be all the time, well, I own a roofing company or I own a kitchen company or I own a bath company. I'd say no, and I'd go next, next, next. And the people that really get it and really build companies in this business understand that it's really all about sales and marketing. The product is almost secondary.

You can, you can sell anything at the end of the day, um, and, and have good installers and hire the right people to run your production department. Um, but you know what, without leads and without sales, nothing's happening. Um, I always say that, you know, you have different touch points, and a company's reputation is everything, especially nowadays. But I was never an installer. I never worked for someone doing that. I was always an assistant when I was in my training, But you don't want me picking up a hammer. You don't want me cutting drywall. Believe me, my wife doesn't want me doing it at our house. She says, call— Yeah, me neither.

Exactly. You and me both.

But the one thing I do understand is that you have to be able to reach people. You need to be able to generate leads and you need to be able to have people who sell those leads and do it with a system. And it's extremely important to have that system, to utilize that system and constantly be going at growth. When I meet people who tell me that, like you were just alluding to, that they're great roofers, but they can't, you know, they can't seem to make a living with it. It happens all the time. We've got phenomenal installers who were great at doing their jobs and making these beautiful kitchens, but they weren't good business people. And it's not to say that they didn't have the ability. It was the fact that it wasn't their top priority. They viewed themselves as a kitchen guy or a roofer or a window installer. I view myself as a business person. Who happens to be really— have really great people to do that.

So yeah, it's— and the most success— and look, the most successful people I know in the business, the most successful people you know in the business, think that way. They think exactly that way. So tell me a little bit about what is— so you came into the business kind of, you know, it's funny, you joke that you came into the business through your father-in-law, but you actually weren't handed anything. You crawled your way up from the bottom. You had to prove yourself. Um, what do you— what do you think is like the most important thing that you learned through those first few years that you were doing everything?

Um, I can tell you what I really miss is going into the warehouse and doing inventory, because days were a lot easier then than they are today. But, um, My father-in-law brought me on, I think, having faith in me but wanted to see what I was capable of and if it was something I would even want. Now, I should also mention that my wife, who was not involved in the business, has 3 other siblings, one who was working in the business and then 2 other— and then 2 others who were younger and working for the business. But at that point in time, it just didn't work out for them to be a part of the company. On top of that, my father-in-law's brother worked for the company. Company. Uh, my mother-in-law's brother worked for the company. Uh, we were supporting a lot of our family. And I will tell you, Andy didn't make it easy, but he also wanted me to be successful. And I think he realized when things were going in the right direction in one place, he would let me know that my supervisor made comments about it and that things were going in the right direction. And I will tell you, he was harder on me than anyone when things didn't go well. And my philosophy always was nobody should ever be harder on me than me. So if he was angry at me or frustrated with me, I was even worse on myself. And it made me actually even more successful. One thing I learned, and I think this is indicative of many people in their 20s and 30s, is, you know, you're always rushing, rushing, rushing, thinking that this is going to be the best idea, the best solution. When it's already been tried and it may have been a good solution at one point, but not a good solution now. You have to be able to work with your team to figure out what's been attempted, what hasn't been attempted, because reinventing the wheel is great, but you need to have an evolution. You need to be able to create the right management team, the right process, and the right unity. And I think that we've really been able to translate that into our current status now. I kind of believe there's no such thing as a bad idea. Um, so my philosophy is I'll box something. Steve Jobs used to take ideas and say, that's a great idea, but we're going to look at that later. And I think that there is a time for every idea that can come back around. But at this point in time, it may not work. 5 years from now, it might be the greatest thing for us to do.

So yeah, so let me go back a little bit. So you said 2000 13 was when you guys, you were at about $1 million.

Yeah, a little bit over at that point. Yep.

Yeah. So in 5 years, you've broken through, you know, I think every, every business and, you know, we're just talking home improvement, but home improvement has certain ceilings that you hit. So I think one of them is just getting to $1 million. I think the next one is somewhere between, you know, going from $1 million to 2 to 3 million. From 2 to 3 million, the next level is, you know, kind of 5 to 7. And then from there, it's 10 and beyond. And at each level, there are shifts in what you have to do as the owner, what, you know, the, the time that you spend in the business. And also, there's a lot of mindset as well, because you've got to kind of prepare yourself mentally to make that leap to the next level. And you've gone through, you've kind of broken through 1, 2, kind of almost through the 3rd one now. That's in a relatively short period of time.

Mm-hmm.

So what is, what is it that I guess I will come back to skill set for a minute, but let's talk about mindset. For a minute, anything that you can pinpoint necessarily about mindset that helped you kind of break through, you know, because, because look, when you're at $2 to $3 million, you're starting to bring on salespeople, you're starting to bring on processes, your overhead is going up. You've got to get a little more sophisticated with your marketing and your processes. Your business should be making, you know, $250,000, $300,000 in profit. Um, how do you go from there to now deciding, okay, well, we're going to now go to the next level, which is, you know, disrupting the whole thing again and shooting for the next level of 5, you know, 5, 6, 7 million.

How do you deal with that? I have to tell you, you know, you used the perfect word, which was disruption. Uh, there is no question that each one of those stages is a huge disruption to your business. And even now, as we have grown in just the last year and 2 years, We are preparing to be a company that can handle more than $10 million in sales. But we're also tightening up a lot of our processes. I go back to when I first purchased the company, I was the sales guy, there was one other guy, we would joke around all the time. And I was trying to run the business. And I have a wonderful business partner who has been great because he was our old CFO. Now he's our COO. And he is the minority partner in the business. But he handles a lot of those administrative things when— so I could have been out. Nowadays, we're constantly working on the business instead of in the business. I've had to remove myself from the sales process. I've had to remove myself from sales management, which was a very hard thing for me to do because I love being a salesperson. And I loved my sales guys. Don't tell them I said that though. They, they're a very colorful group of guys that we've collected over the years and handing the reins over to a real sales manager and having them do that work and me saying, okay, this is your department and I need you to do it right. And I'm going to be the admiral. And each one of my departments, my marketing department, my production department, my administrative department, and my sales department are all different ships. So we've got a fleet now. And that's the way I kind of am trying to constantly steer the boat, steer the entire fleet in the the right direction. And one of the things I've noticed is sometimes we take on leaks, but those leaks are great. A lot of people see a problem and they say, oh my God, that's a terrible thing, I don't know what to do. I look at it as a challenge. Um, I was very, very lucky. My mother used a very cheesy line with me my entire life growing up. It was, you know, the last 4 letters of American spell I can, and there isn't anything you can't do. And And she really made myself and my brother believe that. So what I've always taken is the approach, okay, we've got this issue, we need to fix it. But how do we look to the future now? And how do we create a process that will work for the next few years? And how do we make sure everybody's on board with these processes? Because change is hard and growth is hard. And one of the biggest realizations a couple of years ago was if the company is doing $6 million, you know, everybody in the, and the company thinks that you're taking home $3 million, okay? And after their salaries and everything, which, you know, couldn't be further from the truth. One of the things that we started doing as a company is being transparent with our employees, which means that every year we show them this is how much the company revenue was, okay? And this is how much the profit was at the end of the year. And that was a huge eye-opener. A huge eye-opener for our employees. And this year we've actually instituted a company-wide bonus plan if we hit our goals at the end of the year based off of the profit. And I'm telling you, transparency is one of the greatest things because in this day and age with all the expenses we have, especially in healthcare, because, you know, we're insurance providers as contractors for our employees. They think that their number, their premium's going up every year. But what they don't understand is what we're paying on the back end. And it's something we've made very, very clear to all of our employees by showing them exactly where we are and what we do. And I'm telling you, that transparency creates more of a team effort. People say they never want to share and they're always afraid to, but we've actually been able to motivate. When you get everybody on board with the same mission and moving towards that goal, you're going to have a lot more success and you're going to try and blow that number out of the water.

Wow. So I think you're the first person I've talked to that actually is fully transparent. You know, a lot of people will share revenue numbers, but they don't necessarily share profit numbers. I know here our scorecard that we, we use the EOS Entrepreneurial Operating System and our scorecard numbers, one of them is revenue. It's tracked you know, weekly, and everybody knows whether we're on track or off track. But we've never really opened up the books and said, okay, this is exactly how the business operates and this is what we expect. So that's pretty cool. So let's unpack some of what you said because you basically, you said a lot of stuff and you mixed skill set in there with, with mindset. The one thing that I want you know, for the listener, and I think that, you know, again, you could go back and listen to that, that 4 or 5 minutes, which was very, very powerful of what Brett said of basically how you grow a business from $1 million to $10 million, because he basically gave you the whole thing, but he gave it to you from 30,000-foot view. But the hardest part, I think, for a lot of us me included, is giving stuff up. So you mentioned it was really hard for you to give up the sales management piece just because you, you, you enjoyed it. But I think also it's kind of the lifeblood of the company.

There's no question about that.

So how do you— how did you get yourself, I guess, comfortable and confident enough to say, okay, yes, it's time for me to hand this over to somebody else?

Okay. Well, the realization that when you're an owner of a company and I'm going to give you an example, I actually have a friend, somebody who I— a colleague I respect tremendously, owns a bathroom remodeling company. I'm not going to mention it on the air right now, but he actually does not run his company. He is a salesman. He loves being a salesman. He is the owner of the business. He does all of their marketing and their commercials. But he loves being in sales. So he actually has really good people running the company for him. And he might be a decision maker in there, but he trusts his team to do it. I couldn't do that. I have certain skills that I've learned over time that I want to be in the middle. I want to oversee the company's growth. I have a vision for where I want to be. But at a certain point, I realized, you know what, I can't be dealing with sales phone calls constantly. I can't be dealing with being a salesperson constantly and dealing with customers constantly. And I love it. I love getting on the phone with an angry customer. I love getting on the phone with an excited and happy customer because 90% of the time I can figure out what's wrong and fix it. And 100% of the time with a happy customer, it just makes me happier. But I had to let all of that go and it was extremely difficult. So much so that just to be quite honest with you, we went through quite a few sales managers, one of a few of them were promoting from within. And we realized that that didn't work. But I kept on getting thrown back into the sales management position. Finally, when we got to our current sales manager, who I love, and I hope he never listens to this, so he hears that he— I realized the only way for him to really succeed was for me to be away from the building. So purposely, when Well, when Bob came on to be our sales manager, I actually scheduled it right around a trip I was taking, and I, and I left the country for 2 weeks. Um, very smart. Yeah, and, uh, I made myself less available. Um, now just to let you know, before that I had had meetings with my sales guys. I brought our sales manager in to meet with him, and we transitioned slowly. But when he took over, I made sure I wasn't around because they needed to see that this was their new captain. And I think that that was a great thing to do. And it was hard. I was really wanting to pick up the phone. But it's just like when someone quits smoking cigarettes, I think every day gets a little bit easier. And now I will tell you something, I could not be happier that I am not getting those phone calls and managing the sales force because now I'm able to look at our sales, our production, our marketing, our administration. I'm able to look at the profit and be able to say, okay, if we want to be here in 2 years, what do we need to do? And how do we go about doing it? So it's, it's definitely hard to do. But you need to force yourself to do it. You just need to say, I'm going to do it. I need to do this. If I don't, I will fail. And I will never be able to grow. And you know, when you're green, you grow. When you're brown, you die.

Yeah. So, so just to give everybody kind of an idea of what they can kind of look forward to once they get up to that, you know, $6, $7 million and pushing to $10 million, which is where you— I mean, it looks like you're going to hit, you know, that $10 million mark. What does your— what does your week look like and what do you spend— what do you spend your time on in an average given week?

Oh, that's a loaded question. One of the things I should mention is that I am very much a big believer in philanthropy and giving back to the communities in which you do your work. I do sit on a few boards, more boards than I probably should, by the way. So, and I have a young family with a 5-year-old and a 1-year-old and a wonderful, loving, accepting wife, thank God. But I will tell you the first and foremost thing when it comes to the growth of your business, make sure that you're there for your family. I come home most nights and cook dinner or make sure dinner's on the table. I love to cook. It's therapeutic for me. But when you're talking about the rest of your time, I've been— I've had to make myself much better or grow as a time manager. Meaning that I need to be able to say, okay, this, this week, this is going to happen. So I need to focus on what's going to be happening in our growth administratively. We're currently in the development of our CRM, our new custom CRM that we have in-house. And so I've been spending a lot of time like that. But, you know, you're not talking about a 40-hour workweek when you're an owner, you're talking about an 80, even more hour workweek. The good news is, and this is in that $5 to $7 million phase. I'm just saying that. That's when you have to say, wait a minute, what do I not need to be doing here? What am I focusing my attention on that I'm spending too much time looking at the sales numbers? I'm spending too much time looking at my production department when I have someone who should be managing that, when I have somebody who should be calling those sales guys and figuring out what's going on, when I have someone who is looking at those numbers constantly and reporting back to me on what lead costing is in marketing. And I think that that 5 to 7 jump, it's a necessary thing. You have to have processes, you have to have tighter processes. Right now, going through this CRM process has caused me to have meetings with every single department and say, okay, tell me about what happens after a job sells. What— let's go. This is when the folder is created. What happens next? Step by step. And we've actually found redundancies that were absolutely unnecessary. And because of that, we're actually cleaning up our process. But you're talking about hours and hours of spending time together, hours of thinking about it, and then more so. But I try to make time for my family and I try to make time for my passions and volunteer work because I feel good doing those things. They're therapeutic to me. They make me a better person and they allow me to sleep at night, you know, the 5 hours that I do on average.

So So the, yeah, sorry, the philanthropic work that you do, and that was, that was part of my motivation for asking the question because I know that that's really important to you and I know that you, you spend quite a bit of time with that. Um, you're on a number of boards. How much time does that take, um, a month? How much time are you devoting to that a month? Um, well, okay, just if you have to guess.

I mean, I would say at least I might be giving about 10 hours a week. To my volunteer right now. And there's reasons for that. I'm actually in leadership roles in two organizations that have become extremely time-consuming. However, you know, I will tell you, I don't accept a role or do anything without discussing it with Julie first, my wife.

Of course. Of course. That goes without saying.

But my problem is that I'm an all-in person and I see I see the bigger picture a lot of the times that other people have more of a myopic or narrow-minded or narrow view. I can't even tell you when I started volunteering, and I know I've told you this story before, Brian, years ago, I was spending a lot of time doing it. And my father-in-law brought me into his office one day and he said to me, you know, you got to stop, you got to be around the company more, I need you here more. And I go, okay. And I walked back to my office and I had been keeping a spreadsheet of every customer that ever came to me through any form of volunteer work that I had done. And I brought it into his office and he looked at it and he said, keep volunteering, go out for a few more hours. And part of that is, and I will tell you, I've been very blessed because the people in the community that see me out there doing the work, they see me out there doing the work. They appreciate that my dollars and my time are also going back into their organizations and the amount of business that I have actually been given from my volunteer workers, unbelievable. I am the go-to guy in our Jewish community here for kitchens and refacing. It's unbelievable, and it only grows every year. And as far as my work with— I work a lot with domestic violence and child abuse. It's something I'm very passionate about, obviously the act of preventing it and educating about it and not performing it. But But, you know, people on those boards talk about you and they give you the money. And I've been in customers' houses where I've said to them, listen, when you— I might be more expensive than the other guy, but at least you know when you give money to me, it's going back into the community and helping and supporting it. And honestly, that close works sometimes. So you'd be amazed about how many people say, you know what, you're right. So But I'd say 10 hours a week right now on average, to answer your question.

So yeah, so part of the reason why the whole Wealthy Contractor thing was created and what I'm most passionate about is that the majority of people in our industry— and, and, and look, this, it's the same in every other industry as well, but this is the one that we are in. Work too hard and they work too long for, for too little. And the idea is that we need to create businesses that serve our lives, that help us live out our best life, whatever that means to us. So in your case, um, you're able to go and do your philanthropic work and, and, you know, and I know you, even if you didn't get business from, I don't know you that well, but I think I know you enough to say that. Even if you weren't getting a bunch of business from it, I think you'd still do it.

Oh, there's no question.

Because it's just near and dear to your heart because you have that, you know, you originally wanted to be a rabbi. So you have that, you have that in you. And whatever it is that is your passion or your purpose or whatever you want to call it in life, your business is supposed to be there to help you make that happen. It's not there so that you could be a slave to it, working 60, 70 hours a week, not getting home to your family, and not being able to do the things that are important to you. And I think that what you've shared with us here, you've given us a glimpse, and then we could keep talking, you know, for hours about more detail about what it actually takes to make all of this happen. But I think that the, for the listener, I think hearing basically what needs to happen in order for you to grow your business, which is you have to get yourself out of the way. You have to really think about where you're going to be spending your time, how you're going to spending your time, who you're going to be spending your time with, and be very future-focused. I think is, is, you know, it's, it's the key to creating a business that works for you rather than it— but rather than you working for it.

I agree with you 100%, and I think that's the big difference between the $5 to $7 million mark and where we are now. Because I mean, at the $8, $9, and God willing, $10 million mark, you begin to look at things from that 30,000-foot approach and look to say, okay, what do I need to create my business? So my hours at the office have diminished. I don't I don't go back at night unless I really, really need to. I've got great people who I trust who report into me constantly. And I think that's, that's the key is letting go, but also making sure that you are living a lifestyle that you want because you have sacrificed to create something. And if you want to enjoy the benefits of it, you need to be able to say, you know what, I'm going to spend a little bit more money, find the right management team and find the right processes and get it all, all your ducks in a row, and you will be able to walk away and you will be able to check in and you will be able to be a business owner and a community leader, and you will be able to be a family man and spend time and enjoy a quality of life that you want and you deserve. So yes, if you're doing the backbreaking work still and you're at that, you know, in that 5 to 7 spot and you want to grow, you need to be able to say, I need to spend money to make money. And, and it's a sacrifice you make, but every sacrifice is worth it in the end result for the, for the right end result. I'll say.

Yeah. And just, you know, you said 5 to 7, but even at 2 to 3, even at $1 million, I mean, the interesting thing is if you build the business the right way, when you get to $10 million and beyond, there's very little left for you to do, the owner.

Yes.

The goal is basically to practically eliminate yourself from all activities other than where are we going, you know, where are we going and putting the people in the right places to get us there. And it's working for you. And I'm very happy for you. It's— that's awesome.

Well, I will also say we love G4. It's a phenomenal product.

Well, thank you.

And our customers love it. And, you know, we're glad we use it. So you're worth every penny. Good.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks. I didn't even ask for the plug. And there, there you go, folks.

We've been offered opportunities that were different and we keep on coming back because there's no question that Brian has a great product and does a great job. So, but you've been—

thank you.

You understand?

I understand. Yeah, I bet. Hey, man, I was— I've— this, this business has taken me through the wringer and back, and I've had great times. I've had really bad times, but I've learned a lot. And I hope that by introducing people, the people listening to, you know, people like you and some of the other people that are actually every other person that's on the podcast, it helps them see that, hey, you don't, you don't have to do it alone. And it's, it's, it's, it's not as hard as, or it doesn't need to be as hard as you're making it out to to be.

Yeah.

So, Brett, thank you so much. I appreciate you taking time and being with us. And no, I'm honored to be here.

And thank you so much for the invite. I was very, very excited to be asked to be on your podcast.

Awesome. I appreciate it. And to everybody listening, this is Brian Kaskavalciyan with G4 Marketing Group. and The Wealthy Contractor. Until next time. All right, so that's it for today's episode of The Wealthy Contractor Podcast. Let me ask you, did it help you look at your business in a new way? Did it spark an idea or ideas you hadn't thought of before? Do you have a list of action items that you can take and implement into your business or your life today? I really hope so. Now, before you go, make sure you subscribe to the Wealthy Contractor Podcast so you get access to the latest episodes as soon as they're available. We're always striving to provide you with great content, so you don't want to miss what's coming up. And a favor, I'd really appreciate it if you'd go to iTunes and post a review of this podcast. Let us know how we're doing. The Wealthy Contractor Podcast is brought to you by GFour Marketing Group, where we help contractors of all kinds create customers, keep customers, and multiply their customers and profits. If you're interested in reaching new levels of success for your company, visit www.gfourmarketinggroup.com. Marketing.com, or just call us at 305-856-8788 to schedule your free, no-obligation Wealthy Contractor Strategy Session. Now, during this strategy session, we're going to look at 8 key performance factors in your business, and we're going to help you uncover opportunities for growth, for leads, for sales, and for profit. And finally, we started The Wealthy Contractor as a resource to help you, the home improvement entrepreneur, regardless of where you are on the wealthy scale, get where you want to go. We want to provide you with the motivation, the confidence, the resources, and the tools so you too can live the life of the wealthy contractor. Now, the wealthy contractor is a place where it's okay for you to want it all. In fact, it's not only okay, it's encouraged. So until next time, this is Brian Kaskavalciyan with G4 Marketing Group.