009 Interview with Hugh Kimura of TradingHeroes.com

Hello and welcome to the Consistent Profits podcast brought to you by Inside out trading and Brian McAvoy. Where the focus is on consistency, because when you have the consistent part down, the profits become easy. Hello, everyone, this is Brian McAvoy with a new episode of the Consistent Profits podcast brought to you by Inside Out Trading. Well, I'm excited today to be interviewing Hugh Camorra of Trading Heroes. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today, Hugh.

Hey, Brian, thanks for having me.

Seriously thrilled to have you. Hugh and I have known each other for quite a while, several years, and he's a recognized and seasoned forex expert, particularly in the trading psychology area. I know he's been working on that a long time. He's been in the trading space for actually 20 plus years. Wasn't it like 1999 when you first. First dipped your toe into the trading world?

Yeah, first started in like 99. Trading Heroes started in like 2007. So yeah, it's been a while.

Yeah.

So. So you've been around for a while. I mean, you look. You still look young. When I first met you, I thought you were like, you know, in your early 20s. So you're still, you're still young though, right?

Yeah, I mean, like 46 now this year.

Oh, wow. Oh, cool.

Yeah, not that young, I guess, but young enough.

Yeah, looking at you, I wouldn't put you that all. Anyway, yeah, Hughes, he's been around for quite a while and even traveled the world, participating in different trading events. Spoken at several. So again, thanks for being here and taking the interview. So now when you and I first met, you were on Hawaii and we did an interview on free podcasts then. But since then you've come back to the mainland.

Right?

And now as far as how you first got started, I know you got kind of a cool story as far as how you got started with forex. A little different than most. Once you tell us a little bit about how you first. First got.

Got.

Got introduced and involved in. In trading.

Yeah, it's a. Interesting story, I guess. So in college I got really interested in trading around, around my senior year. Bought a ton of books, didn't study for class, just read a whole bunch of stuff on trading and just barely graduated. So I graduated, went to LA to live for a little while and so I wanted to see what I could. What kind of trading job I could get. So the first thing I found was I answered an ad in the newspaper. I think it was the LA Times, and they had an ad for a currency trader job. Right. So you go in the. To the office and they basically teach you trading for like a week, which was barely enough. And then they tell you to go raise your own money and bring it into the office and trade. So it was basically, they were making money off of the commissions right on the trades. But it was just a cool experience to be in that environment and in that office. You actually. Or actually during that time, you couldn't really trade online as a retail trader. You had to go up to the window, fill out a physical ticket, give it to the woman, she'll call it in, and then, you know, you would have your trade open. So I did that for a little while. I raised about $10,000. But then one night I was looking at the charts and I saw the. I think it was a Euro, US dollar just tanked. And I realized, I did the math and I realized, oh, I would have wiped out my entire account. So I didn't put the money in. I didn't know what I was doing. So I just went off and got a computer job. And then from there I got kind of bored, so I looked for more trading jobs and I got a trading job at a hedge fund in Santa Monica. So I was working at the trading desk there and just filling out tickets and doing the Excel sheets or whatever. But that was really interesting because I actually sat at the desk. I got to participate in some bond auctions, helping with the salesman and all that type of stuff. So that was really interesting. But that was really boring because it was basically Excel sheets. So at that point, I went back to Hawaii, I got a couple jobs in IT and at the bank and started trading heroes at that point. So that's kind of my background on trading.

Yeah. It's funny because, yeah, when I started it was trading was not like it is today. So. Yeah, where you think of a phone and call a broker. And commissions were a whole lot different back then, too.

Oh, yeah, they were much higher, right?

Yeah.

I mean, if you could find a broker that was like less than 50 bucks a trade, that was a decent deal. And I remember running across some brokers. They were charging 200 bucks a trade.

Wow. Yeah.

I mean, it's hard to stay in the game at that rate.

So.

Yeah, you got lucky, though. At least they scared you before you got your account wiped out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Huh.

Yeah, it's been kind of neat watching the whole evolution of the trading, like the trading world as online trading's developed. And then, you know, that came around and the phone brokers largely went away and Went too long. And then, you know, the bots and the, you know, expert advisors, EAs and all that came around and then crypto and, you know, now we're coming out with, you know, Web 3.0 and NFTs, and it's like it never ends, the change in this place. It's pretty cool to watch. So. Well, as far as. So how did you transition into the online trading? Because you said you kind of took a break for a while and then you came back to it. So when you came back to it, was it, was it online trading? Did you jump right into it with Forex again or.

Yeah, I just jumped into Forex. I think it, my first account was at like FXCM or something like that. So they were pretty, pretty much up and running at that point. So, yeah, that's how I got started online.

Okay, now who were, who were some of your early mentors? I mean, you said that you did a lot of reading. Who, who did, who do you learn most of your, your early learning from?

The early one was Chris Laurie. I don't know if you've heard of him, but he's a ex Olympian and now he's a Forex trader. I think he just manages like family offices or whatever. But he, he contacted me via the website and he said, hey, you know, I just want to give you this free course. I think, you know, I could help you out. You have some potential. So, yeah, so he helped me out that way and his style really didn't jive with me at the time. But seeing what he was doing was a really big, really big education and really helped me a lot in terms of like, price action trading.

Huh.

Well, so what, what was, what was it about what he taught that was significant for you?

Just identifying the, the key levels. And I think he was a little too short term for me at that time. He was trading like on lower time frames, but just the idea of like, you know, identifying simple support and resistance was, was, was a big concept for me at the time.

Well, so what prompted you to start Trading Heroes?

I just wanted to, you know, create something that would help me learn, I guess. So Trading Heroes would allow me to, number one, interview people, people I probably wouldn't have been able to talk to otherwise, like you and number two, make some money. So turn it into a business because I realized you can make some money on some affiliate stuff and then selling some products. Right. And then number three, just to, you know, connect with other traders and have something to do on the side.

Now you said that you started Trading Heroes 2007. But you didn't start the podcast until 2015, correct?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. So I don't, I don't know that I'm all that familiar with what it was before you had the, the podcast going. So what, what was the site like? What, what do you, on, on the site before you started, you know, interviewing other traders?

Yeah, it was pretty random. I, I had interviewed a couple of the traders, like just text based. So I would email them and they email me back some answers. But then otherwise it was just like me talking about random stuff about trading. There was really no direction at that point.

Oh, okay.

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, just like learning anything. It's like there's a whole lot of, just kind of fumbling around in the dark for a while until you kind of get it, get it figured out and can figure out a path. So. Yeah, that's cool. Well, so how, how is it you managed to survive? That's, that's one of the key things. Once you did go ahead, I mean, when did you actually go ahead and get busy with your trading where it was, it was a, you know, a regular activity for it.

I would say maybe about 2018 or so, but it really kicked in. Up until that point, I was just kind of breaking even, trying to figure out the psychology, trying to figure out the strategy, the best strategy. But that's when it really turned around, I think.

Okay, well, what was it that was kind of the turnaround for you?

The big turnaround was mental. Like I had this big mental block against success and I realized, I realized where that comes from, basically. But yeah, there's something I just had to work on over time. And my issue was I would get a trading strategy, I would back test it, it would backtest, you know, pretty well or whatever. And then I wouldn't have the motivation to implement it, I guess, and stay with it. Right. And if I hit a drawdown, I would get kind of discouraged and maybe look for something else. So that was, that was my issue and that's what I was working on.

Huh.

So how did you overcome your block?

That's a long story. A lot of things. At first I did the, I did the Tony Robbins stuff. Right, that everybody does.

Oh, yeah, yeah, everybody.

Yeah, you gotta start somewhere.

Yeah.

But then after that, you know, it was just like searching for different things. And one of the big things for me was going to Costa Rica and I did a few ayahuasca ceremonies there. And that really kind of opened the door up. And then from There I've been doing some breath work and meditation and that's really been helping me overcome some of these programming that I've had before.

You said ayahuasca ceremonies. Yeah, what was that about?

So it's a tradition over there. They drink this brew made out of two plants and it gives, it's a psychedelic brew and it gives you, you know, you ask it certain questions and it will give you answers. Where that comes from, who knows? Right. Like your subconscious or from the plan itself or whatever.

Right, right.

But then it really helps you get rid of these, these trapped emotions, these trapped demons, I guess, if you will, in your, in your mind. And yeah, it was a really eye opening experience for sure.

How did you want to go in that direction with things that's definitely not the common path. What, what led you to Costa Rica doing that?

Yeah, I, I think I've, I just tried everything else and everything else didn't work right. So I was like, okay, what else is there? So I was just looking on YouTube and I found a couple of movies about it and the, the evidence or the people who were interviewed seem to have really good results. So I was like, okay, let's try this.

Huh? Wow. Yeah.

Well, I'll tell you what, it's not a good endorsement for the weed on Hawaii though, because my sister's been on Hawaii since like 87. And it's funny because we'd always joke around about the great drugs she could find on Hawaii.

Yeah, yeah.

Including mushrooms and everything, which she was kind of a fan of. But.

Huh.

Well, that's really cool because I don't know if you heard about it, but I guess it was starting a few years ago with the psychedelics. The microdosing was getting real popular in California and especially in the tech area.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just because of the way it stimulates the brain and the, you know, what it does to the chemistry and everything and I guess the neurological firing and everything, but doing that on like a, you know, regular basis, so.

Huh.

So was it a pretty wild experience for you? I mean, did you trip and head off to different planets, become a different.

It's actually pretty mellow really. Everybody else had like these wild, you know, seeing demons and snakes and all this type of stuff, but yeah, that's no good. It was pretty, it was pretty mellow for me. I just kind of got what I needed and released a few things in there and yeah, it wasn't, wasn't scary or, you know, like. Yeah, some people got really scared, but it wasn't scary.

For me. Huh? Wow.

I've always been curious to try to try psychedelics just because all the different things. All the different things I've heard about it, including because you were talking about, or at least kind of came going where you're talking about it with the psychedelics. And it can be, I don't know if you want to call it a spiritual or metaphysical experience that some people have with it. Many years ago, ran across this book by Stanislav Grof, who had been a doctor at the University of Maryland and did LSD research for, like, 25 years. And it was really wild because he talked about how it was really so excellent as far as being a therapeutic drug for people with certain psychosis and it's hard to cure, you know, mental illnesses. And it worked just amazingly well for him. And he had developed. You said that you had. You'd done breath work. I wanted to ask you if it's similar to the kind of breath work that he does. He calls it holotropic breath work. But one thing that he found in his research and just the whole area, the whole field of study with this, the different mental states that it induces, he developed the breath work. He said that just through certain breathing techniques, that it could induce the same chemical reaction and mental state as lsd, but without the drugs. And so, again, it's one of those things I've always been curious to check out just to see what it's like and if it's true or not. Now the breath work that you're talking about is different though, right?

Well, I've done both, actually. When I was in San Francisco or in the Bay Area, I did. I did go to a class with a guy who was one of the original students of Stan Groff.

Oh, wow.

So I did breath work with him. Yeah. And then.

Same thing. Cool.

Yeah. So we came out to Phoenix and then we found another guy who's doing breath work or a guy and a woman. They're partners. And that's been really awesome, too. So I go, you know, once a month, probably.

So you're actually doing that kind of breath work?

Yeah, yeah.

So does it induce a pretty, pretty significant, like, change in state of mind and consciousness?

Yeah, I mean, like, I wasn't tripping that hard when I went to the. The holotropic one, but I did feel the effects for maybe about a month after. And some of the other, especially the ladies in the class, they saw, like, you know, they would go out to the universe or whatever or they would see, like, flashbacks to Their childhood and stuff like that. So it's pretty common. But the one in Phoenix here is a little more mellow, but you get a, it's not as you don't have to breathe as hard, so it's not as much work. But you, you get an equally, I guess, satisfying experience or an equally, you know, transformative experience.

Huh.

So how long does that last? Once you, once you kind of hit the, you know, hit that point, how long does it, how long does the effect last?

It just depends on how long you keep breathing. I mean, you could probably go on for like a couple hours until you get tired or bored or whatever. But yeah, it's all about the breathing.

So you kind of maintain an awareness of still being around and everything. It's not like you like mentally leave. You just. You have the effect. But you're still aware of your surroundings and everything, right?

Yeah, yeah, usually sometimes you fall asleep. If you need some sleep, you might fall asleep, but otherwise you're pretty awake and aware.

Wow, that is so cool. You know, you're, you're literally the first person I've talked to that's actually gone and done that.

Oh yeah.

Oh, okay, cool.

Especially with, yeah. Stan Groff. I'm trying to remember the name of the book. I think, I think the name of the book was Mysticism.

Okay.

Where I learned about all that. Yeah, he sounds like a really interesting guy. Kind of be interesting, you know, just hang out with for the weekend and just kind of pick his brains.

Yeah, yeah, right.

His experience has been like.

Huh.

So okay, so you said you did the, the breath work and you did the, the, the, the, the two plant brew down in Costa Rica. What was the third one that you mentioned that you, you'd done that was helpful on your path here?

I think those were the only, mostly the biggest two.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Well, that's kind of interesting as far as them providing you with a breakthrough that's helped you with your trading. Because they don't really have anything to do with trading. It's all about you.

Yeah. But ultimately trading is coming face to face with your own demons. Right. Like it's a mirror for your relationship with money. It's, it's a mirror for your self worth and stuff like that. Right. So if that's not right, then your trading is going to be off anyway. So I see these types of things as big helpers to, you know, making you a better trader.

Oh yeah, yeah, indeed. Well, let me, let me get your perspective on one thing because I think, I think it's worthwhile to, to have a look at. And I don't think enough traders have the opportunity to reflect on it. And what I'm talking about is exactly what you, what you were just saying that you know, your relationship with money or maybe success or for a lot of traders, you know, they have a comp, it's almost like a complex about discipline sometimes their self worth. And one thing that I found that I try to get across to people because a lot of people that come to me and they're, you know, they say, you know, Brian, you know, I'm otherwise pretty successful but you know, the trading looks simple enough and I've got a decent system, I think, but I just can't stick to it. I keep screwing up and you know, making stupid mistakes and everything. So what I need to fix is me. And what I found at least with, in my first few years working with traders and would seem pretty common with everybody is it's like, well, traders are above average generally speaking, just wouldn't be in a position to trade otherwise. And so the fact that you're in a position to trade, you know, you've been able to amass, you know, 10 or 25 or 50 or $100,000 to trade with demonstrates that at least to a certain degree you're okay with money, that you're okay with discipline because you're not going to amass that kind of money without at least a reasonable amount of discipline. You got to be, at least you got to be okay with success to a certain point because again, otherwise you wouldn't, I mean, just the fact that you're in a position to trade demonstrates that you're okay with all these things, at least to a pretty sufficient degree. And so, but I understand there's the validity because I, I mean for years I also also was, you know, the notion, yeah, trading is great mirror, you learn a lot about yourself. Hopefully you get more out of it than a bunch of hard life lessons. But from that perspective, like I said that, okay, yeah, these may be issues, but how do you kind of reconcile with the fact that, yeah, for you know, most traders who are pretty successful and again, okay with these things, how do you reconcile the two that okay, maybe you do still have some, you know, some issues over here to work with.

Yeah, you see what I'm saying? That's a good point. I mean, they're otherwise very successful people. Right? Usually. And I think it's just a matter of the person wanting to go in and take a look at what's, what's the problem, right. I think you really have to be, you have to be willing to explore and face whatever those demons that are in there that is causing you to trip up in that, whatever area you're, you have a challenge with. And I think a lot of times, like I worked with this one trading coach for example, and he, he was convinced that all issues from trading come from your childhood. And you know that that's, that's valid. I think, you know, there's a good deal of stuff that comes from your childhood, but it might not be only your childhood. Right. You could have had a bad divorce when you're middle aged or whatever. So I think that these things affect you in ways that you probably don't understand right now. And if you can figure out which one of these things or which one of these events in your life have had that effect on you and it are affecting your trading, then I think that's, that's where you're going to find the biggest gains.

Huh.

Now would you say that for most traders their issues are these other things that they need to discover or is it really just getting proper training on how to be a trader?

It just depends, right, what, at what level they are. So if you're talking about like what you mentioned, these very successful people, probably in their 50s and 60s, amass quite a bit of wealth then those type of people, you know, it's, it's a matter of these little gremlins in, in their, in their psychology. But if somebody's pretty new to trading and maybe they're not so successful in other things, then they probably have to look at maybe bigger picture stuff and you know, why am I this way with money or you know, what's my relationship with success and all that type of stuff?

Okay, well, generally speaking, what, what's your, what's your take on the training that most people, people do get when they decide to start trading? I mean like so what, what's your, what's your take on it?

What do you think of it?

Most of the training it's, I think it's like anything else, right? You're going to get, you're going to get really good people and that's going to be a very small amount and you're going to get a big group that's like kind of mediocre and then another smaller group that's really terrible, right? So I think, I think it's really up to the individual to seek out the really good stuff. Otherwise it's, you know, just going to be pretty average.

Okay, well, as far as if somebody's fairly new to trading, what would you recommend that they look for in who they choose to learn from?

I would say start with somebody who you resonate with or who has a similar personality to you.

Okay.

If you can recognize that, then they probably have a system that's pretty similar to what you would want to trade. So I think that's a pretty good place to start. And then, you know, obviously try different things. Sometimes we get too wrapped up in just figuring that, oh, this one guy's the guru, I'm gonna follow him my whole life. Right. And then you realize, oh, maybe his stuff isn't that great or it's not a good match for me at least. So, you know, just be willing to look at the personality of the person and then what matches with you and what you want to trade.

Okay, well, I know that you provide a variety of training resources for traders.

Yep.

Where out of all the different stuff that you offer, like I said, if somebody's new, what would you recommend that they start with?

Just start at the blog. Start with the, the trading psychology post. You can click on the category link and that's totally free and I have some posts on there about where to get started with trading psychology, how to think about things when you're first starting out with trading. And then from there you can look into the systems and you know, see what kind of appeals to you. Because there, as you both, as we both know, there's such a wide variety of systems that actually work. So in the beginning, don't get too caught up in, you know, the system itself. Just what kind of general idea do you want to trade and kind of go from there?

Okay, okay.

What do you consider the main skills that a trader needs to be competent aside, you know, once they're, you know, I consider psychology that's kind of like the soft side of trading. On the hard side. What do you, what do you think are the primary skills that, that's really important for, you know, a person to start with when, when they're want to get into trading. What kind of skills do they need?

Hard side. You mean like specifically like using stop losses or.

Well, hard side like you know, strategies and systems, you know, back testing the kind of the technical practices.

Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, so I think backtesting is probably the best, the first place to go. I mean not all systems can be back tested obviously, but if you can at least get a simulator and start back testing some ideas and you can see how they play out, see how they actually test out over like 10, 20 years or whatever. Then I think that's a great place to start. And it teaches you the platform, it teaches you risk management, it teaches you how to read reports. So I would say that's the best place to start.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

Now do you just have the courses or do you also coach traders? Like one on one or group coaching?

I've haven't been coaching very much, just one off here and there if people ask. But I'm going to start doing more coaching because I'm going to start. Well, I'm going to coach on psychology and then I have a hedging course that's coming out. So I'm going to start coaching that.

Yeah. Wow.

What you got going on with that?

I just teaching my method of hedging. I think hedging is kind of a. Kind of the ugly stepchild of trading, especially in forex. Right. Not too many people do it, not too many people talk about it. But if you do it right, it can actually be very effective and less stressful than other systems. So going to be teaching that.

So.

So that. So that everybody understands what you mean when you say hedging. What do you mean specifically?

Oh yeah. So it's just, it's holding longs and shorts at the same time. Principle of it.

Okay.

So another way to look at it might be you kind of take positions both if you're right or if you're wrong.

Yeah, yeah. And you can make money in both directions at the same time.

Okay. Okay.

Yeah, just. And one thing I would stress to everybody, and I'm sure you do the same thing. Just like any new field that you're moving into, really super important that you learn the terminology that goes with it. Words and the nomenclature that go with any. Anything that you're wanting to do. If you don't know the words, it can be a huge obstacle to being able to learn how to do that job. Well, I read a book a long time ago when my daughter was little on it was called Learning how to Learn. And the guy talked about there were three specific obstacles to learning that would like prevent people from being able to comprehend stuff and be an obstacle to keep them from progressing. And one of them was misunderstood words. And it's pretty wild because these things that he talks about in his book, each of those obstacles has a physiological response to it. It's like something you'll feel physically as well as a common like mental response and with misunderstood words. It's funny because I remember running into it in college with a couple of professors that couldn't answer certain questions that I had in about terminology defining words. And one of the, like, responses that happens sometimes is you, like, get defensive or like, anger. Right now it's like, I don't want to talk about it anymore. And it's hilarious because when I was trying to teach my daughter how to read, that was. That was where I encountered it with her. It's like, you know, I'd be reading to her and it's like. And she's like, you know, singing the whole book with me because we've read it a bunch of times. I'm like, here, go ahead and read it now. I'm like, what? And anyway, everywhere that I've worked and I've had people working for me, they'll tell them, it's like, don't, you know, when you come in here, learn the terminology. Don't let people use words that you don't understand. Ask them what they mean. And then trading, it's so huge. I actually ran across this gal who had been trading for two years, two full years, and she didn't even understand what a put was doing it, but she didn't honestly understand even what it was. She couldn't explain it to me. And so. And not put her down. I mean, she was a great galaxy, but just she had never really thought to, you know, look up the words. And that's why I love, like, Investopedia. They just got a great glossary there. You know, it's any trading term, pretty much. You, you know, if you run across something you don't understand, go to investopedia.com and they got a great glossary there. But yeah, the words. Making sure you understand the words is a big thing. And like, you're talking about just kind of soaking in knowledge, going to your blog and, you know, just doing a bunch of reading on, you know, the subject matter. Not necessarily chasing strategies, but just kind of getting involved in. Okay, this is what it's like in the world over here. So, yeah, it was definitely a good suggestion. Good starting point. Now, as far as strategies, do you recommend any particular type of strategy that people start with or no?

Yeah, I mean, there's a whole big universe of strategies, obviously, but I think just something really simple, right? Like there's a classic meme where they have a beginner's chart and it's full of, like, indicators and all these, you know, retracements and all this stuff, right? So just start with something simple that has like one or two Maybe three indicators at the most. Have a stop loss and just back test it, make sure it's back testable and then kind of go from there. I think that's the best place to start.

Cool.

Yeah, simple. Yeah, that's, that's a good suggestion. Definitely. Whatever, whatever you do, keep it simple to start. Yeah, I see so many people, they jump into it, they try to go straight to intermediate trading and it's like, no, yeah, you got to work your way up to it. So. Yeah, that's cool.

Well.

I gotta ask just because this is the Consistent Profits podcast. So if somebody's looking for those, you know, magic consistent profits, what's like the main thing that you would say they need to, you know, keep aware of or focus on if they want a consistent profits? What do you think is like one of the main keys for that?

I would say perseverance. I think you really have to be able to stick in trading long enough to figure out the systems, the psychology and everything else to be consistently profitable. I think people give up too early or they just have a defeatist attitude that, oh, I'm not good enough and I'm just going to quit and go back to my job.

Right.

So I think that that would be the biggest thing for me.

Cool. Yeah.

And yeah, perseverance definitely is. Yeah, that's. That's huge. This is not, this is not a game for the, for the squeamish or weak at heart. For sure.

Yeah, that's true.

Well, very cool. Well, now as far as your site, again, it's tradingheroes.com, right?

Yep.

Okay. And is that where you focus most of your time or you also. Do you also have a strong presence on any other, any other sites or social media?

Twitter mostly, and YouTube. So trading heroes on Twitter and YouTube also.

Okay, cool.

And everybody, I'll go ahead and put all Hughes links to so you can catch up with him in the show notes down below. But yeah, tradingheroes.com, great place to catch up with Hugh. Well, I gotta say, I enjoyed this. We're kind of running up on our time here. Thanks for sharing all you have today. It's really a worthwhile and enjoyable conversation with you and it's good to catch up with you after a bit. It's been a little while since we spoke as far as, again with your site. Main thing to understand everybody, if what we've been talking about, if it resonates with you, I know Hugh's a good guy. His heart's definitely in the right place. And if you do like what you've been hearing here and you want to get his help, don't just sit there, go ahead and reach out to him and go and seek out his help. One of the biggest things that I learned along my training journey is don't try to figure it out by yourself. That's really the hard and long expensive way to learn trading. Get good help from people that you resonate with like he was talking about. So, you know, if what you heard today, you know, resonates with you, reach out to him at trading heroes on YouTube or at a site and go ahead and act on it. You'll be glad that you did. He's. He's a good guy. Like I said, I've known him for a while. I know I've talked to lots of other people who've worked with him as well, and it's always been a good experience. So you'll be glad that you did. Make sure you go and reach out to him. And yeah, Hugh, thanks so much and, you know, I look forward to talking to you again here sometime soon. I'd like to do this with you. There are other topics we can explore, so besides the asset trips and everything. So.

Cool.

Thanks, Brian. I appreciate it. I appreciate the kind words and thanks for having me.

Yeah, indeed.

Well, everyone, thank you. And everybody, thanks for listening. We'll see everybody on the next episode of Consistent Profits podcast.

Cheers. See ya.

Thank you for joining us today on the Consistent Profits podcast, brought to you by Inside Out Trading. If you enjoyed the show, make sure to subscribe on your favorite channel and we'll see you on the next episode. Cheers.