031 – Interview w Jerry Allison of Traders Accounting

Hello, and welcome to the Consistent Profits Podcast, brought to you by Inside out trading and Brian McAvoy, where the focus is on consistency, because when you have the consistent part down, profits become easy. Hello, everyone. This is Brian McAvoy with a new episode of the Consistent Profits Podcast. I'm very excited today to be interviewing Jerry Allison of Traders Accounting. Jerry, thanks for being on the podcast here today.

I am very happy to be here, Brian. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I am. I'm jazzed to have you here. I mean, Jerry. So everybody knows Jerry is. He's an accountant, but he's also a consultant, a mentor. He's got a lot of years in the accounting field, business field in general. And so today we're going to be talking about, you know, some of the business considerations that are very applicable for traders. But pay attention. I know this might, you know, at first sound, oh, you know, boring and dry accounting, but, no, this means money for you and liability so that you can, you know, you can sleep well at night knowing that you don't have, you know, some outstanding, you know, IRS liability that's going to come back to bite you later. You can sleep well knowing that you're okay. And educating yourself is the first step. And so that's why I was thrilled to have Jerry come on here, because, you know, as a trader, you actually are in business for yourself. And so to know these things and how to, you know, step into it and do things properly in your trading, that's huge. And Jerry's perfect guy to have on to discuss it. So, yeah, let's just go ahead and jump into it. And, yeah, again, Jerry, thanks for being here, man. This is awesome.

You're very welcome. And I want to talk to everybody today about why it's necessary to think about thinking in terms of a business. Certainly if you're a trader, you have the option of just going out there and investing your money with a broker and trying to make some money. But once you start wanting to deduct expenses and once you start wanting to optimize your tax picture, that's when you start running into problems, because there's a lot of traps that the IRS has laid out. Matter of fact, we'll. We want to talk about. First thing we want to talk about is probably trade or tax status. It's probably the. The number one thing that people that traders start to look at and see that they want to actually get into trader tax status is it is a choice, really, with the irs. It's not. It's not something you have to file for with the irs. They don't need a piece of paper from you. They, they, you just actually do it on your tax return. But you've got to meet the criteria for it. And what happens then is you are allowed to deduct your expenses on your tax return. And it's always been my contention that traders have a lot more expenses than what they realize. I talk to clients all the time or consulting clients and they say, well, I don't have that many expenses. And I start chuckling inside my head a little bit and I'm thinking you have more than what you think think you do, just to name a few. You've got data feeds. I mean a lot of serious traders have data feeds or they have subscriptions to software. Those are two big ones. Or they subscribe to some service, it's a charting service or something where they're spending a lot of money to do this. Even a home office deduction can save money. So there's some issues there. So go ahead, Brian.

Yeah, well, no, I'm glad you're bringing all this up because as far as, yeah. The trader tax stats. Well, just like I said, just the, you know, a lot of people cringe when they hear the word formality. When I first, you know, got into the working world back in my late teens, I very quickly learned to appreciate certain formalities in business. And as I, as I learned more and more about business just in the different jobs that I was working, going through school and stuff, I totally really started appreciating some of the formalities because they mean so much from first of all, running a good business.

Yes.

And being successful and being able to sustain success when you achieve it. But also, yeah, money wise and tax wise, I mean just in so many regards, some of these formalities, they seem like a pain in the butt, but they're huge and they've been established for a reason. They're good practices that actually benefit you if you pay attention. And so yeah, talking about like with trader tax status, one quick question kind of even before we jump into that, because you were saying, you know, yeah, you can start, you know, you can just take your money and start trading. Is it really important for traders to differentiate the entity through which they're trading and setting up a business? Or is it really does, is it almost inconsequential in trading as a sole proprietor? Is that. Okay, we're going to come back to a little more aspects of this. But just in general, what are your thoughts on just the entity formation to start with and actually setting it up as a business.

Yeah. Entity formation is actually very critical and the reasons for it actually go back to. It sound like I'm getting the cart before the horse. But it goes back to deducting expenses on your tax return. The scenario is when you start deducting expenses on your tax return, your personal tax return, that's when the IRS starts perking up and that's when they start taking notice because you'd have to do it on a schedule C. And Schedule Cs are notorious for being audited. Every audit I've ever been involved in, except for one, has centered around a schedule C. So you do raise the audit risk. So what we try to get our clients to do is move it off into an entity. Now you may be thinking, okay, well I can form an LLC or you know, partnership or whatever.

There are certain, you know, you might be worrying about, you know, a, a $20 a month subscription to something that it will actually add a lot of value to your business. You know, you're going to sweat over $20 a month but not pay attention to your taxes. Your taxes can be a much larger expense and you got much better opportunity to save money if you pay attention to it.

Absolutely.

A lot of time on.

And it's very possible, and I see it frequently, that you could make, let's say a couple thousand dollars in the market and you're happy over that, that's great. And you end up paying taxes over it. But if you got to deduct your expenses and you find out there's $3,000 of expenses there, now you're in the whole $1,000, but you're not getting any benefit of it if you don't get to deduct those expenses.

True. Yeah. Then you have to pay taxes on top of the $3,000 expenses.

Exactly. And that's one of the things we try to avoid with our clients. We try to really minimize their tax burden and put them into a place where they're amount of taxes, but they're making as much as they can in the market.

Yeah, well, and the cool thing about it is just like any game, if you're going to be professional about it, you need to know the rules. And that's right, that's we're working with somebody like Jerry and traders accounting where they know not not only accounting in general, but also specifically for traders. It can be, they can be a tremendously valuable resource. We're going to circle back to, you know, working with them here in just a little bit but yeah, you definitely want to pay attention, you know, to your taxes, your entity. I mean, heck, if nothing else, just the frustration, you know, of dealing with the accounting if you don't have your, you know, your, your entity and your accounting and all that kind of stuff, if you haven't set your infrastructure for your business up properly from the start and then you try to do it later or, you know, you're fumbling through can be really stressful and aggravating, very expensive. So again, attending to this formality as soon as possible or as early as possible in your trading career, it can really save you a lot of grief, a lot of stress, make things, you know, much more smooth for you and also greatly affect your bottom line. So, okay, so, so we talked a little bit about the entities and you were saying you'd like to start with a Schedule C and, and, but then also actually set up as a partnership because it offers the flexibility. So now kind of circling back to where we started because I know I ran us off a little different direction. Okay, so now let's, let's bring it back to tax status or trader. Trader. Trader status as far as taxation and the considerations go with that and how to, how to, how to step into that.

Right. Trader tax status, as I mentioned a little bit ago, is a choice, but there are some criteria that have to be met and it can be met on individual level as well as a business level. Now, the irs, by the way, if you, for those of you are interested in reading what the IRS has to say, Publication 550 is something that you want to get from the IRS. You can go to the IRS website, type it in the search bar, and you could download it in PDF format. It deals with all types of investing. So that is the kind of our go to. I've got a copy of it on my desktop. And so it's a great reference. But anyway, Publication 550, when it defines the criteria for trader tax status, it does it very vaguely. And I think the IRS does this intentionally. So that gives their examiners a lot of flexibility to do, to determine things, let's put it that way. However, what we do manage to do is we go back to court cases where actually people have decided to say, okay, I don't like what the examiner's saying, let's take it to court. And there are three criteria that have come out of court cases that if you meet these three criteria, then you can deduct expenses on your personal tax return. The first one is there have to be 720 or more trades per year. So we know that's come out of a court case. Some people that's easy to do. Some people that's rather difficult to do. It depends upon trading so well. 700. Yeah, go ahead.

Well, and the 720, that's individual transactions. So like a round turn in and out trade counts two.

Yes, that is correct. Thank you for clarifying that. And if it's broken up into lots, like for example, you want to buy 100 shares of stock and it's broken up into three lots, that's three separate trades right there. So it's not that difficult really to get to 720 trades a year. The second criteria is you should be trading in at least 75% of the trading days per year. Now if you do the math on that, that's about 188, 189 days out of the year that you're trading. Now, I'm going to talk about those two. Why are they so stringent? One of the things that does come out of the general information in Publication 550 is the IRS wants you treating this like a business. Here we go back to that term business. Again, anytime you start dealing with the tax code and trading, if you don't, if you're not going to treat it like a business, then IRS is not going to work with you at all. And so if you owned a business, let's say an auto repair shop, you're not going to take huge amounts of time. You're going to be there and you're going to be working that job and you're going to do it off all this stuff. Well, the same, they want the same standard for trading. They want you to be there at least three quarters of the trading days per year and also be making all these trades. And both of those can be proven just by handing an IRS examiner your, your monthly statements. Because all the trades are right there. You say, count them up, buddy. And, or, or look at the number of days. You know, it's right there. The third criteria is not quite as clear cut. The third criteria that you need to meet is there should be 500 hours of trading research and education during the year. Again, they want to show that you are treating this seriously. Also they, they have a bias against automation, you know, bots and AI and stuff like that. Because now a lot of traders are getting into these programming trading systems where they don't have to do anything and the IRS is not going to allow that and just say, okay, well you got a computer doing all your work for you so you can deduct your expenses. They're not going to allow that. They want you putting in the work. And so what we recommend to our clients is basically keep a log of what you're doing. Certainly if you're, you're sitting there. Oh that. Particularly if you're going to be deducting your expenses on, on the schedule C of your tax return. I'm going to keep going back to that because it's really important. As long as you're going to be doing this as an individual and not as an entity, you have to maintain those criteria. And don't even think about using a bot or AI. You really have to maintain those criteria in order to deduct those expenses.

Well, just for clarification, so even if I am using some sort of computer aided whatever, whether it's a bot or you know, regular, you know, running algorithms or, you know, expert advisors or, or alerts, as long as my personal involvement still meets the 500 hour requirement, we're good. So yeah, if I'm there watching the charts, I'm spending time managing the business, all my time engaged in the business. Even if I have some automation, as long as I'm personally involved that much, then, then I'm okay. Is that correct?

Yeah, that's, that's starting to walk on a thin line there. But I think you're going to be correct. As long as you can show you've got personal engagement in the trading and they're actually, you're actually executing now, certainly you've got to use some technology for, you know, the research and all that. I mean, doing that by paper and pencil anymore is ridiculous. You just can't do it. But, but when you start talking about having the, the programs actually make the trades for you, you know, let's say you're, I don't know, doing Tesla, a lot of people like Tesla for whatever reason, and, and, and you program a computer just to buy and sell, buy, sell, buy, sell. And you walk away from it and you're not engaged, that's when they're going to have a problem with this. Okay, now we, now just to kind of follow that up a little bit, we do advise that if you do have programic trading, any type of AI or some type of mechanism trading for you, get it off into an entity off your personal tax return because the IRS tends to leave that alone even more.

Okay, makes sense. Yeah, good advice, huh? So, all right, so our three, three criteria, the three, three, the three big ones he said was Volume, number of trades per year correct or frequency need to be trading like at least 75% of the time or, and the hours of our active engagement in the business. Okay, right. Okay. So those are the big three. Now there are, there are other considerations but those are the main ones.

Those are the big ones. And, and we really don't worry about the other ones so much because if you can get past those, the other ones tend to fall into place. So.

Well, does it make any difference regarding how long you're in trades? Like being a day trader versus a swing trader? Like.

No, because we've had. Well, no.

Okay.

And, and I'm going to qualify this because usually they, the IRS sets up a 30 day minimum, you know, some type of a standard about you're in short term for 30 days or less. So usually a lot of swing trading can be done in 30 days. Now usually swing traders, those are the ones that don't have as many trades. So they're the ones that have to watch out for that, that, that volume cap there. But 30 days. But we also have clients. You also have situations where some people are, they have long term holdings. For example, again I'm going to use Tesla just for sake of it. They get, you know, thousand shares of Tesla stock and then they will rapidly sell options on that and they still qualify. They've got the long term holding but at the same time they, they qualify because they're just, they're rapidly trading the options.

Okay. Huh. Now as far as the, the, the, the trader status, that's really just kind of a lens, I mean, so that we can put it in perspective then everybody can get a handle on it, you said. Because it's, it's not really something that you form, you have to fill out for and qualify for. It's just something that you do. Where does that come into play then regarding our taxation and is it, is it primarily if we're just dealing with a sched. If we get off the schedule C, is the trade or tax status really even that big of a deal? Is it primarily focusing on being able to deduct things or you know, claim deductions? Is that where the trader tax status primarily comes in or does it also affect our tax rate like you know, long term versus short term gains, that kind of a consideration? As far as the tax rate.

Right. The primary concern is just being able to take the deductions and it indirectly it will affect your tax rate because it could lower you into a lower tax bracket, but it does not change the taxation of the gains that you have at all, long term versus short term, that's all going to be done at the standard individual tax rates in that case. Okay, now you, you kind of nudged into a very gray area here that I do want to kind of briefly highlight. Trader tax status. When you go read about the court cases, read publication 550 and all that stuff, everything that they cite there is referring to individual traders, people who are doing it on their personal tax return. There is absolutely no guidance for entities whatsoever as of this point. And so you've got two points of view that have arisen. One point of view is the risk averse view because, well, we don't have any guidance. So you still need to maintain those standards even if you are in an, an LLC partnership. And the other point of view is those, those standards are for individuals because the IRS really doesn't want you just deducting anything on a Schedule C. But when you get off into an LLC partnership, you have taken the effort to form that business. Businesses have expenses and therefore should be allowed regardless of the amount of trades that you make. And so it depends on where, where you fall down on that, that view. And so you have to kind of determine whether you're risk averse or not and whether you want to take the chance.

Yeah. Okay. Well, one other, well, another consideration here, and really this is kind of stepping all the way back is, you know, if you're going to be, if you're going to be doing your trading and setting up this financial activity as part of your life and you're just going to do it as an individual, you go to the broker, you're signing papers in your name, everything is in your name and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, the tax considerations, it can get kind of challenging because yes, you're doing it strictly as a sole proprietor and as an individual. The benefits of being able to do things as a business like we've been talking about is if you're treating it truly as a business, you file, you know, with your secretary of state and you establish a business entity that has its own name, has its own tax number, has its own bank accounts. And every, all the relationships that you engage in with your trading are done through that entity. That's how you're treating it properly as a business. And now, yes, businesses, well, here, here's, here's one of the big reasons you want to do this. Treat it like a business. And yes, you buy, you know, let's say you spend, you know, five grand on a really nice computer setup and everything for your trading business. If you're doing it as an individual, that's personal expense. And you may or may not be able to deduct it, even though you're doing it for your trading properly as a business. And you use it just for your business, it's not for your gaming and that kind of stuff, it is for your business. You buy it through the business account. Like I said, you're doing it as, as a business properly, you can deduct that expense off the Internet from that business, which is cool.

Yes.

Like you noted at the beginning here, Jerry. Yeah. When you actually start thinking about all the money that you wind up dropping on stuff, if you can take it as a tax deduction, it really adds up and can have a big swing for you.

Yeah, absolutely. And, but that's why I advise clients. I mean, particularly in an LLC like multi member llc, you can deduct these expenses. And a lot of times when I do webinars, I go through an example that shows him how you can get the government to pay through refunds for your llc. Because we're talking about these deductions that you couldn't normally take as a person. You know, a $5,000 computer, I can guarantee you right there, just about with any state in the country that you deduct a $5,000 computer that you couldn't deduct personally. If you do that through an llc, the refund you get for that will pay for the LLC fee each year and will pay for the tax prep fee. That's the refund paying for that. So the government's essentially paying for your llc.

Yeah, yeah.

And one instance that I like to use, and I mentioned a little bit ago, is that home office deduction, because that's a critical deduction. And you can, you can deduct enough through that that you can't do on the personal side that again, you'll get the refund that can pay for that LLC without any sweat.

Yeah, well, and with home office, the cool thing about it, again, anything that you're buying for the business that you put in that home office, and that is dedicated space for your business, so you're doing it proper. So first, the first time I did, went off, went through this whole exercise with home business years ago, I was thrilled because, yeah, you can deduct square footage, you know, the percentage square footage from your home. So a lot of your home expenses, you can take a percentage of those in certain circumstances. Your utility bills, your insurance, a lot of the home related expenses. Now are Business expenses because you're allocating that part of the home for your business. So yeah, a whole lot of stuff that would normally be straight out of pocket. Now it's a business expense, it's a deduction. And, and, and so, and, and you want, again, I'm not saying this, you know, to, to be cute and make a game of it, but the thing is, you're going to be spending all this money. If you're going to be devoting part of your home for your trading business, you might as well gain the benefit of it. Go ahead and do it, attend to the formalities, and then it really is a big benefit for you. And like you're saying, yeah, the, the tax refund that you get because you've been able to deduct all these expenses. Yeah. Otherwise they would be straight out expenses and you're paying taxes on your full revenues and not your actual, what should be your taxable revenues.

That's right.

This is, I mean, this is a cool aspect of accounting that a lot of times, you know, accounting to people and then they're going to roll their eyes like, oh, yeah. It's like, no, there are certain things about accounting that you can get fired up about because.

Absolutely.

Impact on your account balance.

Yeah. What's really cool is when I, when I do a webinar, the host will come in after I get done with webinar and say, I thought that was going to be boring here. It was exciting because, you know, you were talking about ways to, to m. To optimize the tax strategy and get money back from the government that you never knew was possible. And so the idea is there is really beneficial to traders out there if they employ it. Right.

Well, the flip side of it, and even better again, running it truly as a business. One of the things about operating as a business and not as an individual where, you know, most people used to, you know, you got your job, you go work a few weeks, you know, you get the paycheck after the fact and they withhold, you know, money from your paycheck and all that kind of stuff. With a business where you're bringing revenue in directly to you, you file your taxes quarterly and so you're paying your taxes quarterly and yeah. So you're not having to, you know, wait until the end of the year necessarily to get that money back. You get to keep it up front because you're doing your taxes as you go. So it's as you're, if you're managing your, your business properly, you're, you're putting, you're, you know, there's less going out in the first place.

Right. You're certainly more in control of what you can do.

Oh.

Instead of letting your employer control your life for you or whoever you are now in the driver's seat. And you can make those estimated payments, you know, exactly what' what's going on. And quite frankly, there's an adage that if, if people knew what they were paying into the government, we'd probably get tax reform right away. And, and as a business owner, you know, what you're paying in there, it becomes an important part. You have to write that check manually and send it into the government or do it online. So it's, I think it's an important piece to this whole puzzle.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, this, this actually is pretty cool stuff. And because, I mean, of course being an engineer, I'm always been, you know, kind of a numbers geek anyway, but this kind of stuff, it actually is really cool. Well, I'll tell you what, we've covered a lot of ground and I would love to, there's, there's a lot more to the story here.

Right.

What I, what I would really love to do. If you're game for it, let's have you back, you know, come back on. We could talk more about the specific entities from a, you know, a tax standpoint. Some of the, you know, some of the checklists as far as setting things up, legal considerations, you know. Oh, well, one, one question in general.

Sure.

I mean, you've got your own, you know, financial services firm, but you're, you're one of the key players at Traders Accounting, which is excellent firm, been around for a lot of years. Raven runs it. Excellent person, very, a very first class operation you guys have there. I mean, I've known Raven for a lot of years. Very above board, very straightforward, very helpful, always taking good care of customers. And you guys, you've got the, you know, the accounting side, the, the specialty in trading. So you know the rules and you work with traders all across the country, correct?

Correct, yes. Matter of fact, a few in Puerto Rico too, I believe. In fact, I know I did a tax return for somebody in Puerto Rico this year. So. But yeah, we've got, we can set up entities and we do tax returns for anybody anywhere in the United States.

Oh, oh, and this, this is huge for anybody who's saying, yeah, oh yeah, I need to go ahead and set up Internet and you know, an entity and get my business set up. This is really important. This was a this was a costly lesson for me back in my early days. When you're wanting to set up your business. Yes. There are certain legal things that you need to do. You know, like the filing with the, you know, the, the Secretary of State, where you live, you know, filing the articles, organization or whatever, and the, the various filings to set up your business. Don't go to a lawyer, go to an accountant. The accountant understands the legal side and the accounting side. The lawyer, the lawyer only understands the legal part of it.

Exactly.

The accountant, they can help you attend to all the legalities and get your accounting set up and, and advise you on your taxes and the best way to approach it, tax wise. And the other reason you want to work with an accountant instead, and again, instead of just doing this on your own, working through a lawyer, is there are different considerations depending on your circumstances as far as what entity you set up and, you know, like the activity. Just like if you're investing in real estate, this one will be a little more relatable for other people. Just like with real estate, there's not one entity that's necessarily the best for everybody. A lot of it depends on your activity.

Absolutely.

With real estate, you know, if you're looking to buy properties and you're looking to buy and hold them and rent them out and sell them later, if you're looking to flip them or whatever, or, you know, Airbnb, depending on what you're doing and your overall tax, you know, personal tax situation, one entity may be better than another.

Right.

And so that's why you want to have the conversation with somebody like Jerry or one of the other accountants over traders accounting, discuss your situation. Okay, what's the best entity for me to set up to start with and then what all, you know, is involved in getting that set up up, right?

Absolutely. And you mentioned a little bit ago, don't go to an attorney because they just understand the legal side of this and, and to a point, that's correct. And you also have to be careful with the accountants you go to because they have to understand trading as well. And I'm going to use the word most, I don't know if it's over 50%, but I suspect it's over 50% of accountants really don't understand trading and how that impacts a tax return and, and, you know, the different ramifications of that. So one of the bad parts of my job, and I hate to say there's a bad part, but there is, it's cleaning up the messes that other people make, quite frankly. And I hate to see it because it, it cost these clients tremendous amounts of money because they thought they had everything set up right. And I said, okay, you got to go back and you got to redo this now or you got to dissolve the llc, you set up and set it up again. And so it gets really, it's one of the bad parts of my job is having to do all that.

Well, it's good that you, it's good that you do that though, because even if something doesn't get started right, if you can come in and help them get it squared away, yeah, it's, it's definitely a good step in the right direction. And, and I honestly, if you're trading, which you would be if you're listening to this podcast and you don't already have somebody that you like, super locked into as far as your accounting. Talk to Traders Accounting. Like I said, they're a good outfit. They understand the accounting laws. They're required, of course, to stay on top of tax laws, but they definitely understand it from the trader's perspective. They've been at this for a couple of decades. They live the trader in the trader's world. And so they, as far as your, you know, your, your, the, the trading aspect of your, you know, financial situation, even if they're not going to take care of everything, seek them out as far as your trading business and what you're doing with your trading now. So, and best way to connect with you as first traders accounting is tradersaccounting.com correct?

That's correct.

And link down below. You guys have got some different resources there. And because I know you've got like webinars and some other workshops, a couple of, you know, just some general information as far as, you know, coming on board with you guys. What, what's, what's that process like if, like for somebody that's listening, they're saying, yeah, you know, I need to, you know, I need to attend to this. Should they just like, you know, go to the website and schedule a call or what? How's this work?

They can go to the website and schedule a call, or they can just call the number that's on the website and talk to whoever answers the phone and they'll get set up of either. If you just need consulting, they'll set you up with an appointment for consulting, or if you want your tax done, they'll set that up or, you know, set the entities up. I mean, just, just let them know exactly what you want and we can get that ball rolling immediately.

Cool. But. Well, and just to kind of help set expectations as far as if they are basically starting from scratch, they do want the entity set up and you know, help with, you know, getting the accounts and attending the formalities. Generally speaking, I understand it's a range different from state to state, but generally speaking, how long does that process take as far as just getting the initial setup work done as far as, you know, like, you know that well, because we also do need to include, I would think, as part of the service you can, you can help, you can help people set up as far as their own accounting software that they use at home for tracking their running their business. And so anyway, as far as the initial setup, about how long does that generally take?

It depends upon whether the state is busy or not. The official time frame is two to four weeks. Weeks. Everything is done. However, I have seen lately that in a few states it's getting done in days, not weeks. So I mean, the moment it gets in there, he gets back out from the state. And I'm having what's called a coaching call with them to, to talk to them about, you know, the last steps and getting things going, brokerage accounts and things like that going. So sometimes it can be done really quickly.

Okay. Okay, cool. Wow. Well, I'll tell you what, again, I was thrilled to, you know, to get you on the call today. I really totally appreciate you taking the time and, and I look forward to having you back on here now for future calls. Like I said, we can go a little deeper into some of these certain aspects. Do you also, you know, could you also speak to asset protection and structuring of, you know, a person's finances for asset protection and estate planning? Is that something that you guys also can help with?

We can speak about that in a very superficial way, but that is more something that you really, in this case, you want more of an attorney if you want in depth conversation about that. So in that case we can just mention things very superficially and just kind of generally talk about it. Such as like a revocable trust, just irrevocable trust. But get. And also it's different based upon states as well. They states have different types of entities and trusts and things like that. So we can kind of give some general information on that.

Okay, well, yeah, if you wouldn't mind, you know, at some point being able to speak to that. Because as far as estate planning, that can be a bit, that can be a big deal. And so particularly from a tax standpoint of it. Yeah, I mean, if you are not tending to your, you know, your estate and got a reasonable amount of wealth to pass on to your heirs, how you go about passing that on can have some serious ramifications.

Absolutely.

For your heirs and how long it takes and how much of a pain in the butt it is, all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, that's a good consideration to keep in mind and yeah, if we could talk about that. But for now, I mean, even just within, you know, setting up your, you know, your trading as a proper business and running it. It properly and good practices and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I'd love to have you back on. We can get more in depth on that kind of stuff.

So that'd be great because you mentioned a little bit ago we are scratching the surface here and I mean, I think we're scratching the scratch on the surface. So it's, it's, there's a lot more to this. So I hope nobody just goes and jumps out and does something. And you really need more information on this.

True. Well. And at the same time, don't, don't feel that it's overwhelming.

Right.

Just an aspect of being a serious trader where you're actually maybe wanting to trade for a living or establish some good wealth to retire on or, you know, income for retirement or whatever and trading it properly and getting things set up properly, educating yourself so that now things run smoothly and everything's done properly so you gain all the tax advantages, the, you know, whatever financial advantages. Again, you know, looking toward the other aspects of having a, you know, financial asset.

Right.

And you're doing things right and you're doing it in an educated manner so that you know that you're okay and you have that, that peace of mind, that security.

Exactly.

Got the good support here.

That's right.

Yeah. Absolutely worthwhile. And especially, I mean, if this is something where you're, you know, you're wanting to treat it, you know, with some significance and you have, you know, a significant amount of money tied up into it or looking to build, you know, that, that significant amount of wealth, it only makes sense to treat it with proper respect and so.

Very much so.

Jerry, again, it's been excellent, man. Any, any last final words of wisdom besides just don't run off and just start doing stuff.

Actually, that, that would be it. Just make sure if you're going to do something, talk to somebody who knows what they're doing before doing it because it's so critical to get this set up at the get go because the, the concept here is to get it set up so you don't have to think about it later because as we know, trading can be affected by emotions. And if you're worried about taxes, if you're worried about other things, if you don't set this up properly, your trading is going to suffer because of it. So, you know, get everything set up so you don't have to think about it and you don't have to worry about it.

Yeah, well, if you, if you already have a personal accountant that you have a long standing relationship with, you can have the conversation with them. But I, even, even if you do, I still would recommend that you give them a call over Traders Accounting again because they specialize in trading and that your, you know, your, your local accountant might be great for what you've already been, been doing. Maybe they're fine with, you know, your personal situation. You know, you're being an employee, you got a different business, you got real estate or whatever, trading's a bit east. So give them a call at Traders Accounting. You'll be glad that you get, you did. They're a good bunch and like I said, I've been working with them for years, a lot of years, very high integrity group. They've been around for a while, they're well established. So they'll take good care of you and absolutely worthwhile that you do it. So, yeah, excellent. We'll go ahead and wrap things up. And again, everybody, I applaud you for being here and, you know, taking the time to educate yourself and, you know, learn and develop as a trader and as a business owner and investor, which you are. And I look forward to seeing everybody on the next episode of the Consistent Profits podcast. Take care. Cheers. Thank you for joining us today on the Consistent Profits podcast brought to you by Inside Out Trading. Make sure to swing by Inside Out Trading and pick up your copy of the proven formula for consistent monthly profits. If you enjoyed the show, make sure to subscribe on your favorite channel and we'll see you on the next episode. Cheers.