Trading Mindfully and The Wyckoff Method – Dr Gary Dayton – Episode 054

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Hello, everyone. This is Brian McAvoy with a new episode of the Consistent Profits podcast. I'm excited today to be interviewing Dr. Gary Dayton, founder of trademindfully.com thanks so much for being on the podcast today, Gary.

Brian, thanks for having me. It's a real pleasure.

Glad to have you here, man. For those of you not already familiar with Gary, he's known by traders as the Wall Street Traders coach. Gary's been working with hedge fund managers, retail traders and investors and helping them successfully develop the necessary mental skills and mental games to maximize the potential in the market. He stands apart as a trading psychologist in his use of the mindfulness acceptance commitment approach to peak performance model of human behavior based on cutting edge psychological research. Dr. Gary holds a doctorate in clinical psychology and a certificate in human performance and sports psychology from Rutgers University. Gary, thanks again for being here.

Thanks for having me, Brian.

So you went to Rutgers University. How'd you like it there?

I loved it. Rutgers was a great place. Not a big fan of New Jersey per se. When we drove down, it looked like there was, you know, all the gas refineries. It almost looked like there was a third world war or what have you going down. But other than that, it was pretty nice. Yeah, Rutgers.

Yeah, Rutgers is kind of cool. I lived in New Jersey for a year when I was growing up and it was funny. It always stands out in my mind because the kid who lived across the street was going to Rutgers at the time and physically he was just like scary. He was on the rugby team. I was just an absolute maniac. And it's like he could hit him with a car and he probably just get up and look to see if your car is damaged because he's okay. He was just one of those people was like insanely tough mentally and physically and it was just so hilarious. Plus it was just fun as I can hang around with. But so that was, that was like my first introduction to Rutgers University. I'm sure not typical of the student body there, but it was always fun, so. But you didn't like New Jersey? I kind of liked it there. Well, anyway, so as far as that was college, what were you doing before trading? And you Know, how did you wind up in the trading field?

Well, I actually had switched careers. I had started out in government, working for a city government and from there kind of migrated over to the private sector and worked in real estate development, building office buildings and some mixed use developments and some residential projects. And then decided I really wanted to know more about myself, more about my own mental makeup, decided to go back to school. Kind of a big decision, but it was the right decision for me. And as I was finishing up, just kind of finishing up the dissertation and in the midst of completing all of that, I got a pamphlet from a marketeer about how you could make tons and tons of money by trading. And it was so easy. And that's really how I got into it, believe it or not.

So was this pamphlet, was it offering a training or was it a book like Ken Roberts? I mean that's how I got hooked, was Ken Roberts Mailer. And I wanted to buy in the book on the greatest business in the world.

That was the guy. Ken Roberts, Yeah. Probably a 60 or 70 page booklet that he sent out and showing you all you had to do is buy low and sell high and you'd be a millionaire tomorrow.

It was a well written book, you gotta admit. I mean it was very compelling.

Well, I kept it on my nightstand for quite a while and I kept referring to it and I couldn't believe it, you know. And I finally decided to order the course and I actually forget what the course was now, but it wasn't, you know, anything really sophisticated. But I remember staying up all night and reading. Of course I could do that. When I was in graduate school we did that all the time. But I stayed up and read it twice. I read it it once and then started in again probably at 3 o' clock in the morning. I said, I can't believe this, this is amazing. And that's really what got me going on it. I was really inspired.

Well, so now did you go ahead and start trading while you were still in school or did you wait until after you graduated?

Well, I was just finishing up at that point. The only thing I had left was just writing my dissertation and then defending it. So I was working at that point and I had extra time as well. So yeah, I started trading right from the get go.

So how was your start with trading?

Abysmal. Absolutely a disaster. I had, I had gone through a couple of accounts, some serious money as well. Over time I had gone looking at a variety of different ways of trading from Ken Roberts's 1, 2, 3 to Fibonacci. And I thought I was getting more sophisticated. The more indicators I had, the more sophisticated I had, the more sophisticated I thought I was. Until I took a course with Bill Wolf, the Wolf Wave guy from fame, and I sent him a chart. This was back before the days of email. We were faxing it the time and I faxed him a chart of mine. And he comes back in these big bold letters. Get rid of the chart jewelry. All the indicators I had on there, I could hardly see the price. And that was kind of the beginning of me to really start to understand how to trade, get rid of most of those indicators and then start looking just at really price and volume.

Well, so at what point did you turn your focus around from methodology to psychology as far as the aspect of trading on which to focus?

Well, it was always part of it. I understood right from the beginning that psychology was a big part, was a huge part of it because I had difficulties handling losses, cutting winning, trade short, adding to losing traits. It did all of that stuff, you know, and scared the bejesus out of me when I did that sometimes. And so I understood psychology was really important right from the beginning and started focusing on that as well.

Now when we talk about psychology of trading, there are several different facets to it. Where did you find it was like your starting point.

Fear, emotions, that was the big thing, how to handle that? I would get into a trade. In fact, even before I got into a trade, I'd sit down in front of the screen and I could feel my blood pressure going up and my heart pounding away. I was getting anxious just sitting down in front of the screen. You know, I basically, and I found this to be true with most, most, most traders I've come come across. So I basically taught myself how to be afraid of the market by not really knowing what I was doing and putting on a trade. Basically random because I didn't really understand what I was doing. And because of that, I would often get have a loss. I didn't like losses. I tried to avoid them. That led to even more losses and it just snowballed right out of control.

Well, I'm glad you bring it. I heard you mention something that I've tried to get across to a lot of traders. And actually it was funny because it was even like a point of contention between me and an author of a famous trading psychology book. He was saying, well, you know, traders are struggling because, yeah, you know, they've got these certain issues that, you know, psychological issues that they have to deal with and My, My point at the time was no. I've talked to, you know, a lot of traders and most of them, they don't really have what I would consider serious psychological issues. They have lack of training issues. They, they're trying to do a job that, where they really honestly don't know what they're doing. And that's one of the biggest challenges. They haven't been properly prepared for this job. And he's like, no, they've got psychological issues. And it's like, fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You're absolutely right. Most traders that I've worked with do not have psychological issues. We're talking about depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, those kinds of things. And most people don't have that. Most people in the general population don't have that. And most people in the trading population don't have that either. They come in because they're, they've, you're absolutely right. They've come in unprepared. Look, I play tennis, right, and I enjoy playing tennis and I love it. I play two, three times a week, sometimes more if I can do it. But I'm not going to Wimbledon to play 10, you know, to play against the great, you know, Rafa Nadal and Djokovic and those fellow. I couldn't compete there, you know, and yet every trader I know, and myself included, I'm as guilty as this as the rest of us sinners out there. I, you know, start with real money without understanding what I'm doing. And most traders do that. And in fact, I come to the conclusion that most traders don't even need good psychology. What they need is how to understand the chart, how to read a chart, how to, how to, how to read the price action and the volume or their indicators, if they're using that, or a combination. But most people don't, Most people don't know, don't understand how to do that. And they set them up for losses and that create, you know, they set them up, they set themselves up to become fearful of the market. And that's not a psychological disorder. It's just becoming fearful of some logically and reasonably. Reasonably. So you keep going in and getting hammered every time with losses. Of course you're going to get afraid of the market. You'd be nuts if you didn't. So, yeah, I would agree with you and disagree. In fact, I had a reporter one time from the Wall Street Journal called me and said, well, we're doing. This article on. This was after the Flash crash back in 2010 we're doing this article about trauma and how PTSD, you know, from losses in the market and PT. I said you're not going to. I can't subscribe to that. Trauma is a big deal. We're talking about post traumatic stress disorder from combat and rape and you know, really horrific accidents and stuff. Not trading, trading isn't going to create trauma. Come on. You know. So anyway, I'm off on a little bit of a soapbox, but you're absolutely right about that. And I'm pretty, I get strident about it because I hear this all the time while people have disorders and stuff. And that's just, that's bs. That's really nonsense.

Yeah. Well, now one other thing you mentioned, and I think it's also really critical that people be aware of is starting trading with real money before they know what, what's going on. I used to call that the kiss of death because it's like as soon as you start trading with real money, if you're unprepared now you're wiring yourself for bad things. You're practicing. And I mean I use myself as an example because it was a perfect example my first year. Yeah, I jumped into it. Looks easy enough. I jump in, I'm trading left and right. I didn't know what the heck I was doing. And so I got used to bad trading, emotional trading, chasey, you know, chase the markets, trading, all kinds of. Everything was, was wrong, but it was just I'm wiring myself to trade that way and establishing normal. And so what I find is, and what I wanted to ask you as far as how, you know, how do you approach it when somebody comes to you understanding. Okay, so they've been trading for you know, like say three years and you know, yeah, that's just been, you know, a train, a three year train wreck. Okay, how do we undo the damage?

Well, I'll give you an example from a client who's fairly new to me, came in a few, a couple of months ago and he had been trading about three years. Smart fellow, young guy, probably in his, I don't know, 40ish, give or take, has a small family and a house and all of that successful in his career and is just losing money day after day after day, puts, you know, sets up accounts in like prop firms or you know, and he's losing accounts all the time and then has to pay to buy new accounts. I said, and I, so I looked at his trading, I looked at his, I said, send me your trades for the last two or Three days, and they're all basically random. And I said, well, the first thing you got to do is learn how to trade. So stop trading. Right, Stop trading. Stop trading. How can I do that? Stop trading with a capital S, you know, and start to learn how to. The markets really work. There's structure in the market, there's direction, there's support and resistance. All these things come into play and they're really important. Price, action, volume, critically important. Few people look at that. But it's really important to understand that really drives the market in terms of supply and demand and nothing else does. It's all buying and selling. So, yeah, you know, you've heard we. If you remember back in high school or college, Pavlov and his dogs, he was curious if he could ring a bell when he fed the dogs their food, was curious to see if he could get them to salivate. And he could. All he had to do, once he paired ringing the bell with the food, all he had to do was remove the food, ring the bell and the dogs would salivate. That's what we call conditioning. And if you're going in without proper training and you're going in without doing some paper trading, some sim trading, simulation trading, you're putting real money into that and you're having loss after loss, you're conditioning yourself, just like Pavlov's dogs, to become afraid of the market or to trade in an erratic way. Because you're teaching yourself to do that. Yeah. So the first thing to do is to go back to square one and that is to learn how to trade. You know, I often hear people, oh, I can't do paper trading if it doesn't have real money behind it. It's not real. It's not real. My thinking is this, if you can't, if you're unable to get your mind wrapped around the idea that you need to train yourself properly for a bit of time and you're unable to do, your mind isn't. You can't set your, you know, those thoughts aside that you have to have real money. You're never going to be a good trader. You're just not going to be, period. I know it sounds pretty harsh, but that's my opinion about it.

No, and there's definitely merit to that, of course, because. Yeah, well, like you're saying, you know, one of the first things that has to happen is we have to kind of interrupt the past patterns if affect any change. If you just keep reinforcing the past, you're very unlikely to ever get Past it. So that's cool.

Yeah. The other thing traders need to do, which they don't think about, it's really, really important, and that is to develop a process. Most people are thinking of outcomes. How much money did I make today? Did I get X pips or X points or X dollars? You know, did I make $2,000 or $10,000 today? That's the wrong focus. Anybody in any kind of performance endeavor, doesn't matter what you're doing. If you're focused on the outcomes, you're already in trouble. You want to be focused on process. We're playing in a probabilistic game. There's no trade setup that I know of that has 100% probability. Most of them are in the 60s, in the 60, 65%, maybe it's a good one. You can get better. If you're a day trader, you can get a better win rat that. But, you know, generally we get up there and we're like baseball players. We. We come up to bat and we're going to have a number of outs. And so if you're focused on every trade's got to be a winner, you're on the wrong side of that probability curve. Really. You're on the scary side of it. Why? Because every time we put a trade on, we don't know if it's going to be a winning trade or if it's going to be a losing trade. We really don't know that. Right. We put it on because it's got. It meets the criteria for our setup, and that's great. And if it comes out to be a winner, well, that's expected. Right. If it comes out to be a loss and, you know, met the criteria, we were following our process, gee, that's too bad. Outcome. It's one of those 30%. If we had 70, 30% win loss ratio, it's one of those 30%. But if we don't have a process, then we really are doing things randomly. And if we do have a winning trade, anybody can put on a trade and have a winner. It's not that difficult. Right. But it really is just luck. It's just dumb luck that you're getting there. And if you have a loss that you should. That's poetic justice, if you will. Right. When you put on a trade and you don't know what you're doing and.

You have a loss.

So process is really important. Understanding the idea that we're operating in a probability, in a field of probabilities and that you have to play by the rules of probabilities, that means process, not outcomes. And process is about not just your trade setups, but also about you and yourself as a trader and your own personal development. As a trader. You want to have a process to get yourself better, to improve over time, have better entries, hold that trade longer, you know those kinds of things. And you can, you can work on that and you can, you know, you can work on small things like that, and you do that enough and the small things start to add up and suddenly, oh, you're a good trader. Wow. Yeah. And that's, that's really what it's all about. And so process understanding how to trade, keeping an eye on the psychology, not just your trade set up and how many points or dollars you made today, but the other things that are really more important. That's where focus needs to be.

That's excellent. One thing, just because you have an interesting choice of words there, which I really like. You've heard of Deming, the quality guru? Yeah, yeah, but. So you might want to keep it handy. What? Do you remember one of his famous quotes? If you can't define what you're doing as a process, you don't know what you're doing.

Yeah. That's good. I like that. And that makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, so I want to ask you. It was about 10 years ago when your Trade Mindfully book came out, right? When, around 2014.

Yeah, that's right.

So what prompted you to write the book?

Truthfully, I got a call from a publisher and they said, would you write a book for us? And I talked with them a little bit and then I thought, yeah, maybe I could do this. And then I sat down and wrote the book. So it was more a prompt from outside. I had thought about it, I had toyed with the idea because there really wasn't. Excuse me. The best book on trading psychology out there at that point, and still one of the very best is Mark Douglas's Trading in the Zone. It's an excellent book and I recommend it to everyone. He was not a psychologist. Unfortunately, he died young and I never met him, although I really would have liked to have. He was a good trader, a really good trader, and he had a penchant for psychology and he wrote a couple of books. The other book that he wrote is more about psychology. Not as useful to traders, I don't think, but that Trading in the Zone is straightforward, practical, which I always like, and a really good book. Yeah, so I was thinking about, you know, there really wasn't much and Mindfulness and meditation, which was pretty new still. Well, it's not new. It's been around for thousands of years. But in the west, in psychology in the west, it was pretty new back then. I was familiar with it and had been practicing it and wanted to bring that aspect into trading psychology because no one was talking about it. It's really useful. It's really important. So, yeah, those, those. But mainly it was from somebody outside. I can't say that I had this really burning desire to do. It was a tough. It took me three years to write that thing. It was a tough task. Yeah.

No, and I appreciate your candor on that. Yeah. It's a lot of times people, they want to have a big story behind it. Sometimes it's like, yeah, you know, somebody asked me to.

Yeah, I know.

It's.

I know.

Oh, that's cool. Well, now, as far as your site, though, you've had. So your book is called Trade Mindfully, and then so is your site. How long have you had your site up, though? That's. I mean, you've had that up for quite a while as well, right?

Yeah. We started the site before the book and started with trading psychology and then realized that most people didn't know how to trade and started to teach them how to read the market. That's one of the big things that we do. Probably more so in terms of time and energy that I put in. It's probably more. More on that side of things than on the trading psychology side. And that is using the Wyckoff method. Richard Wyckoff.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that. I was wanting to ask you about that. You seem to favor him. What is it you like about Wyckoff in particular? Because as you both. I mean, as you know, there's like dozens of different methods. What about Wyckoff that catches your attention?

There are dozens and there are probably hundreds, if not thousands of different methods, and they all can work. It's not that one is any better necessarily than another, but it just sang to me, really. I was at a Traders Expo in New York City one day and I was talking to Linda Ratchke. She was in a booth there. And I was just a person, just a, you know, an attendee, and I kind of was bending her ear. Now I feel kind of embarrassed about it, but I'm saying, yeah, I can't get this damn trading. I don't get how to do this. And I'm looking at price bars and the indicator and then it doesn't work. And you know, I'm giving her a song and dance, really a tale of whoa. And she said, well, it sounds like you really need to look at Wyckoff. I said, oh, Wyckoff. What kind of indicator is that? Right? And she said, no, no, no, it's not an indicator. It was a guy. He was the first one to really write about the markets, and his writing is as fresh today as it was a hundred years ago. And that's absolutely true. And it has everything you need to know about trading. And that's absolutely true as well. So I started to study that. Then I found a couple of people, David Weiss in particular, but also Tom Williams. Both of those individuals have died recently. But David was my primary mentor. I spent years working with him, and he was a phenomenally good trader and an expert in the Wyckoff method. And Tom Williams used to work for a hedge fund out here, and he lived in. In England, but he worked for. In the. In the US he worked for a hedge fund. And they. They taught him the Wyckoff method, had him take the course and all of that, and so he saw it from the inside of a hedge fund. And then Tom, later on, tried to computerize some of the Wyckoff stuff and got involved in that. In any event, I got a chance to work with those two individuals, individuals, both brilliant Wyckoff traders and really smart about the markets, and they didn't hold anything back. And I don't either. When I teach. There's no secrets in this. And I learned an awful lot from them. And then I just convey that to folks today. And it's all no indicators. We don't even use a moving average. It's all just price bars and volume. And that's it.

Well, yeah, the volume analysis method. I've always been intrigued about it. I know every now and then I'll have somebody come to me and they'll ask me about it, and, like, what do you think about volume profiling? I'm like, well, you need to look into is a body of knowledge in and of itself. It's not just a simple indicator. It's a perspective on the markets. And so it does require some understanding. And one thing you've touched on and I think worthwhile for people to pay attention to is whenever you're using an indicator or whatever, make sure you actually do understand what that indicator is, telling you where it comes from. What. What's the concept behind it? Why does it. Why does it even make sense? Kind of like an investment thesis that's like, why do you even think that it's going to work. And a lot of people, it kills me how many people are using indicators and they honestly don't really understand what that indicator tells them and what it doesn't.

I can vouch for that. I see that all the time. People don't even understand how to use a moving average properly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing anybody. I've made the same mistake myself. But it's easy to do. But the thing is everybody has to understand trading is a decision making process. And if you're using a tool or a source of information that you don't understand, how can you expect to make good, sound decisions based on that? You understand what you're working with otherwise. Yeah, you're kind of gambling because you're dealing with unknowns.

Look, this is a tough business. There's no question about it. You know, we're facing. I'm a retail trader, right. I trade in 1 lot, 2 lot, 3 lot, that sort of thing. Not trading in a, in a thousand contracts at a clip. Most of the time I'm trading the S and P E minis, right? And occasionally the oil market, the crude oil day trading. But I'm not, you know, I'm not a big player, right. None of us are. We're all the little guys and we, we've got to look at and understand how the bigger players work. Wyckoff used to call it the composite operator. Take kind of taking a look at the whole market as a composite and trying to understand what that market's trying to do from the price action and the volume. Volume and price are critical. Look, there are only two things that move the market. Buying and selling. That's it. It's not news, right? It's not the interest rates. It's not any. Yeah, they influence the market. They can have an impact, but it's the buyers and the sellers and that's reflected in price action and volume. And if you get good at it, you can really see stuff. I've got folks who trade mindfully each Thursday night we have, I work with traders from across the globe. About an hour and a half to two hours. I usually set up a historic day of trading. Usually it's the S and P's. We start with the daily chart, look at how the day's been trading, identify support and resistance. You can get good at this too, by the way. Can identify where trades are likely to set up the next day just off of the daily charts. And you can get, you can get Pretty good at. You can get two, three times a week. You can identify that, and that's a nice edge. Anyway, we start there and then we go with a 5 minute 15 and an hourly chart looking at, you know, the three different time frames, multiple time frames, and walking through minute by minute, placing trades, setting stops, managing those trades, talking about the psychology, when it, when it feels appropriate, when it's difficult, you know, and we see how things unfold. And there are folks in there who are. I gotta tell sometimes I think that I thought that they were, that they somehow figured out what day I was using because they must have gotten the information ahead of time. They're so, so good at it. Right. But these guys are just wonderfully good at reading the price action and can make trades like nobody's business. It's amazing how good they can get.

Well, so on your site, I noticed you actually have a variety of ways that you help traders. You've got some courses on methods, of course, you got at least one course on psychology, but you also do coaching. You've got the membership. So what's the typical path when somebody comes your way looking for help? As a trader, where do they usually start and what's it like coming on board with you?

Most people come in through the membership. It's relatively inexpensive for what you get. And as I say, we meet each week for an hour and a half, two hours, and we go through some actual trading. And people can kind of evaluate how they're doing and they can get some help and stuff with that. There's also a couple of. We also do a monthly meeting, usually that's on psychology. There are courses. And then for folks who are really struggling. And this is not usually with retail traders now it's mostly with folks who are running a small hedge fund or running a fund or have a large account that they've been trading and they're good traders. They just need a little bit of help on their process, help on their, on their mental game. And so I work with them one on one as well. Usually it's. But the one on one is generally. It's always for psychology and it's usually hedge fund managers.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Huh? Very cool. Well, so I gotta, I gotta shift gears here for just a second. I got. I always have to ask this question just because it's the Consistent Profits podcast. So what do you see as probably the primary obstacle that most traders run into to keep them from realizing consistent profits?

Well, it's a combination, as I said, not really understanding how to Read a chart and not having paid attention to the mental side of the game, particularly anxiety and fear and how to deal with that, those are the two big things I think I see consistently over and over and over again.

So what would you recommend that they do to resolve this?

Well, you know, as we say, you can probably trade in a variety of different ways if you're going to use indicators. Know what you know, understand them and really know how to use them. Know their strengths and also know their limitations. But I would put a good amount of effort into learning how to read bar by bar, every single bar on the chart as it's coming up. Learn how to read that. Is this a threatening bar? Is there demand showing up in here? Is there supply? Is there no demand, or is this a test? There are a lot of different things that. There are a lot of behaviors, behaviors in the market that are repeated over and over again. Testing is a good example. When there's supply in the market and that supply has been presumably taken out, the larger players will go back and they will test that market, usually more than once, usually several times. And we can read that. We can see those tests. And those tests are probing. People think, oh, they're coming down and they want to get some stop. They want to get my stops. Yeah, they might get your stop, but they're not really interested in that. What they're interested in is they want to know if there's any supply there. They've got an inventory of stock or contracts, whatever they're trading, they want to mark it up. They want to take the price up. They're not going to do it if there's supply in the market, because they're going to get swamped and then they're going to get in trouble and will cause them losses. They want to make sure that that supply has been taken out of the market, at least at that level, so that they can bring the market up. And they go in and they test it. And this is what we, you know, Wyckoff, back in his day, was a broker and saw large players. Harriman, Jay Gould, J.P. morgan, Jesse Livermore. He knew all those people and he saw them trade and he watched them trade. And he, you know, heard from. He'd say, oh, JP Morgan's buying Reading Railroad. Like a banshee buying one of the other brokers he was selling in our office. And so Wyckoff was able to put all of that together and see how they really worked and operated, and then was able to translate that to the individual charts. And that to me is. I mean, that stuff continues to go on today.

Oh, yeah.

You know, yeah, there's the SEC and there are their rules, but people do it anyway. And, you know, it's the way the market works, and this is how it works. And if you want to understand it, this is a great method to read about, learn about, and start to see how the market really does unfold.

Very cool. Very cool. Well, yeah, that's excellent. We do need to go ahead and wrap things up. I know we're running over. I don't want to monopolize your day. Appreciate you taking the time here. Any last words of wisdom for our listeners?

Well, the other thing I would suggest is take a look at meditation and learn a little bit about mindfulness. That is, you know, in terms of psychology. I was trained before the big change here in the last 10 or 15 years with mindfulness and meditation, so that was new to me. But it's really powerful. Even though it's a couple of thousand years old and it seems ancient and quaint, it really isn't. It's probably the most powerful method I know or technique that I know to start to really get a good handle on what's going on between the ears here. So I would encourage people to look into it and try it out. If you haven't tried it and best thing to do would be to develop a practice every day. Just do 20 minutes of meditation every day. Do wonders for you.

Oh, yeah. I'm glad you point that out as strongly as you do for me personally, and I know a lot of the people are like this. The monkey mind is something everybody deals with, especially in today's noisy world. And just to be able to take that 20 or 30 minutes and just enjoy some quiet mentally is just awesome.

Just.

Just to have a break from the noise, the mental noise. It's like I can just mentally relax a little bit. I want. Thank you.

Yeah, meditation is wonderful for that. Also relaxes the body. The body and the. The mind are really connected. And in mindfulness, as we relax the mind, the body also relaxes, and you feel very. It feels wonderful. It's just a very peaceful calm. Some people think it experiences as a very profound calm, and they love it. So I would encourage people to try that out because it really is something to know about.

Indeed. Well, gang, Gary, thanks for taking the time today and everybody, all the listeners today, thank you for taking time out of your day as well to, you know, focus on yourself and learning and developing as a trader and if, you know, whatever. Gary's, got to, you know, whatever he shared today, if it resonates with you at all, make sure you swing by trademindfully.com he's got a lot of good resources there, covers kind of both sides of trading, psychology side. And he's got whole bunch of stuff on the method, methodology. He's got different modes that he can help you with as far as, you know, coaching or courses or the membership. So it's, he's, he's definitely a good resource for you if you want to be a better trader, more successful and have it be a more enjoyable, less stressful experience. So make sure you swing by a site and check it out. Don't just sit there and, you know, have to say that was a great interview and then have it just, you know, pass by and you don't do anything with it. Go ahead and visit his site, check it out. So again, Gary, thanks for being here today, man.

Brian, thank you. I really appreciate it. And for everybody listening, your audience, I appreciate your attention. It's very, very nice of you and kind of you to do. Thanks.

All right, well, that's it for this episode. Everybody make sure if you enjoyed it, subscribe and we'll see you on the next episode of the Consistent Profits podcast. Cheers.

I hope you enjoyed the podcast today. If you did, make sure to subscribe, share this with your friends. Also, feel free to share it on your social media channels. And lastly, make sure you visit InsideOutTrading.com where we focus on you, the trader, because you are the most important part of your trading. When you get the consistent part of trading down, the profits become easy. Thanks again and tune in to the next episode of the Consistent Profits podcast. Cheers.