Trading Psychology specific to Prop Firm Trading – Norman Hallett – Episode 065

Hello, and welcome to the Consistent Profits podcast brought to you by Inside out trading and Brian McAvoy, where the focus is on consistency, because when you have the consistent part down, profits become easy. Everybody, welcome to the Consistent Profits podcast. This is Brian McAvoy with Inside Out Trading. And today I'm excited to be interviewing my good buddy Norman Hallett of the Disciplined Trader. I had him on before and had just had to bring him back again because he's so much fun and he's smart guy and he's helpful. And we have something new to talk about today that I know Norman is excited about, and actually, so am I. He's, he's been digging into this a lot for the last year or so. And for, if you don't know Norman, he's been around for, he's been in the trading game for a long time, traded his own account a lot, helped a lot of other traders been around.

Be careful now. Okay.

Well, I, I see you've been coloring your hair. I, I, you know, I'm going natural.

Oh, no coloring. No coloring a little. You can see the gray. I'm, I'm gifted in that. All my brothers are great, but I'm not, I don't know why.

Wow. That's not the Grecian formula action.

Yeah, no, it's not. No. I've been accused of it many times. I didn't to kind of show you that my beard's a little gray.

You can see well, Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, yeah, I got this. But see, like a week from now, this is probably going away because I've hit a year wearing it, so time, time to give my face a break. But anyway, Norman, great to have you on the show, man. I'm glad, I'm glad you're game, you know, and taking the time out for doing this. And today we're going to talk about something that's been an area of interest for you. And I know you've been like, digging into a pretty deep over the last many months is prop trading. And so, but we, before the interview, we didn't really dig into it much. So, so what do you got in mind that you wanted to share with everybody? I know this is a topic that excites you because there's some cool things that differentiate it from traditional trading. So, yeah, go ahead and bring, bring me up to speed because we gotta, we got some catching up to do anyway.

Yeah, well, thanks for having me. You know, prop trading is, is when you first look at it, you got to say to yourself, come on, now these guys, how can these people be giving you 90, 90 or 100 in some cases of, of the, of the profit that you generate? For those that don't know, prop trade is pretty simple. You're trading other people's money and, and you're getting the prop firm's money. You have to go through some hoops and test for it. But once you test for it, you're actually given real dollars and they'll give you real profit from what you trade. But there are some very small fees and I'm talking very small $20, $40, $60 when you compare it to what traders are able to lose in their own accounts. To have the opportunity to trade tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars for literally a couple, a few hundred dollars to, to have that money ready to try to, to test for you and then to trade for you, it's, it's a heck of an opportunity. But you know, as you and I, you always, you and I have always come from a, from a between the ears angle. You know, we, we know and I think most traders know that trading is a mental construct almost as much as it is anything else.

Absolutely.

Trading plan. You need the, you need the capacity to follow the trading plan. The, the, the not though everybody has the capacity but you have to be able to actually make it happen. And you and I have come from different places in, in doing that, in helping people on the mental side for all our career. But I think that's what attracted me to, to prop trading in that by definition it's supposed to lower the cortisol level. I mean trading somebody else's money and losing a few thousand dollars, it's not your money, it's their money. I mean a responsible person is going to, you know, take it a little bit differently. You know, they're going to say hey listen, it's, it's money and I'm, I'm being asked to do the best I can and, and I, and, and there's pressure there. You know, I was a commodity trading. Were you ever cta? I know you're an engineer, but no.

I never went away from CTA route.

No. You know, I went to ct. You know, in many of my, the roads less traveled traveled pretty much all of them. But I was a CTA. I was managing millions of dollars at Paine Weber to and in exchange they gave me 20% of the, of the money that I generated, of the profit that I generated. And that sounds great and, and I had some, you know, some astounding years. The problem or the issue is that when, when the markets turn against you and things aren't going well and you're not making enough profit to share in the profit, or if you're underwater a little bit, you don't get paid until you get it back over water. And so a lot of lesser CTAs, they can get very aggressive at that time and say, well, you know, it doesn't, I'm not gonna make any money until, until I get back into the blacks. I might as well try to get there fast. I mean it's their money, you know, and you can't do that too many times otherwise they won't give you money to, to trade. But it's always in the back of your head. And, and you know, but 20%, the point really is that 20% is a good thing, but 90% is a better thing. But, but how can they do that? And they do that with these small fees, knowing that still, I'm going to say 85%. I think there is a sliver of traders who can actually be successful in prop trading than they weren't were in there trading their own money. And that sliver, maybe 85% of traders are still losing and therefore they're paying all of those fees all of the time. And therefore it's okay. In fact, they love to pay traders like you and I money in their account. Seeing you every month, a few thousand, ten thousand, whatever you're making. They love to see that money because then I get to brag about it, bring in the next hundred people of which 85 are just going to pay them fees. So they need, you know, they need those people, they need the winners and they're willing to get, in fact Apex, which is the firm that I, I recommend at this moment, they're, they pay 100% of the first $25,000 you make again in, in, in hopes that you'll brag about that crazy payout because apparently they don't need that money. They don't need the profit. All they need are the fees. That's, you know, when you build a business, it's consistent, the consistency is the fees. And, and, and they, and they know that. And you know, and when they allow you to have as many as 20 different accounts, 20 separate say $50,000 accounts so you can be trading a million dollars via 50 each one of those accounts, they allow you the first 20, 25,000. So it's, it's, it's a, it's an endeavor and, and it's, it's a, you Know, and you know, we often talk about privately how, how traders need to focus and, and frame this in their mind, trading in general as a business, and that, you know, they need to have a, a structure and that structure needs to be followed in an orderly way. I mean, this is, I'm kind of talking your talk now, and of course it's a string for my talk, but it's, you got to have that structure and you have to have process. You're the process expert, so you understand, you know, how you get from A to B in a consistent way. And, you know, I do the same thing in more meditative ways, you know, but the idea is that unless you are a solid trader, this is not going to work either.

Yeah, well, and that's, this is one of my favorite things to try to impress upon everybody with the prop firms because, yeah, there's a lot of people sitting there saying, you know, it's just a scam. And other people are saying, you know, they're sitting there in disbelief. It's like, yeah, how can they do this? And the funny thing is it really is pretty straightforward as far as I'm concerned. The prop firms, all they're doing is the same thing anybody should be doing for themselves. And it's like, if you show up with the skills to make money, sure, trade our account, we're happy to give you the funding. That's all they ask, is that you show up with the skills. And every trader should insist upon that for themselves as well through trading their own account is show up with a skill set to make money. If you're not going to acquire the skill set, why are you bothering?

Yeah, I mean, I've coached a number of traders with the skill set to, to be relatively successful or in a minor way there. They want to do more. There's the, the. They're, they're, they're either struggling right on that even line or they're slightly successful. But when they hit, when they, when they decide to try prop trading, the, the struggle can increase. And the reason is because in prop trading, there is very little allowance for, for drawdown. You're talking about 5% if you, if you're trading a $50,000. If they, if you test and then be funded with a $50,000 account, you can't go below 47. 5 because if you do, you bust out the account and have to test again. Now the testing is not that hard. It's just, it's the same thing, really. The numbers and so on look the same as trading, but the Fact is they, they keep that. Not only that, but I think you're going to get a kick out of this. Or maybe you may vomit, I don't know. But you hopefully, you know, you have that call, you have the cough button. Right. But they count that measure. You start with $50,000. Let's say that you need to get to 53, 50, about 53,000 actually for some reason it's 52,600. Once you breach that, once you get over that, you can start requesting money in your account to be, to be, to be wired to you. And it comes in a few days after your request. But the, the measure is, you know, if, if, if you had your own $50,000 account and you had one position on one futures contract, and we're talking futures now mostly 90% of these firms are futures. You have an open trade equity of $1,000. Now you have an open trade balance of 51,000. But you don't do it. You want more. So the market comes down, you put your break even stop in and you're stopped out. Now normally you'd say I want a jerk, I should have just taken the money or I should have defended that a little bit. Okay, but you say all right, I still have my 50,000, I'm good. Not with fraud trading. They count that open trade equity that you take against you. And in that same example, you now not have a $2,500 floor, you have a fifteen hundred dollar floor. Yeah, well, so they're measuring against open trade equity, not P and L. Yeah.

They'Re almost running it like a trailing stop on you.

That's right. Now one, if, if they, if people never see me again and decide to do prop trading. I just want to give you one particular suggestion I found really, really helps with that issue. And it's an easy, it's an easy fix. You may have to change your trading plan a little bit. But the, the, it's an easy fix because of the micro and mini and the small pieces that you can take. The half contracts of crude oil. The, and, and here's the, here's the piece. Always begin your trade. Always fire off your trade with at least two contracts and treat one as a scalp and one as what I call a runner. I mean we're in it for the market for us to catch something. I mean I, everybody think still wants to do that. I know I still do that, that I'm in to do that. But I also understand how prop trading works and the fact that they want you to act like A professional trader, they want you to be and, and really be a professional trader. And professional traders don't let that a 2% profit go. They don't let a thousand dollars looking at a thousand dollar open trade equity in a $50,000 account and be willing to have it go all the way down. Take two positions, let that mature. Now if it happens to mature at my example at $1,000 now you got $5,252,000. Take one out right there. In other words, take one as a scalp pad yourself and then when that other one comes down and break even, you've given yourself a pad of a thousand, they're holding that thousand that you didn't take against you. And now at least you're, you're at 50 now you're at 51,000 but you still have a floor of 2500. So you want to make sure that you have a scalping element to keep, to keep that red line away from you. And I find that you know that's a great way to do it. Now of course a professional trade is not going to let that second position just dissipate. You're going to got to use a technique you've got to use. I like using something fairly tight and that is you know the low of the two bars behind you. In other words, if two, two candles put in the stop at the low of the two candles enough the candle next to you is lower than that second candle, then that's the stop but whichever and trail, trail something on the way up because, or the way down depending if you're short. But using always entering a position with two contracts and treating one as a scalp and one as a runner, that's going to really help your trading plan. I've, I've never been a scalper. I mean I know every member scalping. I've had good enough triggers that you know, if you, if you, if you're yeah. Responsible traders, not responsible but experienced traders know when things are going to run. We're all responsible or irresponsible. That's why we're all trading anyway that, that particular tip. But there's a number of things like that that can really help a trader to, to first qualify and then build that. The crazy part about it is that when you are funded and you build that account the same way as you built it when you qualified, the further you get out that red line doesn't follow you. After 2500 you could have that $50,000, could be 60 or $70,000 but that red line is still at 50,000, 100 stays there. And so now, now that you're way past the danger zone now you can tr. Now maybe you can trade a little bit more like you traded successfully yourself before you can open, open up your parameters a little bit because you've got a lot of working room. So that's really. You want to get, you want to get away from that red line in a funded account, you know, and that's, and, and that can, I mean, if you're at $70,000, you can't trade for that month. You can still take out, you know, three, four, $5,000. And it doesn't, you know, it becomes a consistent income when you can get the. Out like that. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a new world. I believe it's the. I wrote a paper on the death of the simulated trading. I think, you know, well, simulated trading is, it's an interesting, you know, simulated trading. I've always felt had. Was overvalued. The value of it is the mechanics of it. Grab the mouse when the, when the market tells you to go, you click. You click it with, with enthusiasm. You know what you're doing. You put your stop in, you defend your position. It's, it's more the mechanical area that, that, that has, has real value in, in, in, in simulated trading. Because how many times have you heard I've gone to simulated and then when I start to trade for real, you know, it blows up and I can't do it because the mental part, the mental construct changes, you know.

Well, yeah, it meant. Yeah, very much so. Now see, part of this though, and, and again, this is something you and I know just from being in the game for so long. But for me, and, and again, something I try to impress upon everybody is this is why it's so important to not jump into trading and just try to figure it out by yourself. Because one of the things that you just won't naturally intuitively figure out unless there's certain things about you that are unusual, is that the SIM account, like you said, a lot of people, they, you know, and the, well, the brokers don't help. The brokers will say, you know, all right, we, you know, just funded your account. We'll give you the SIM account over here and, you know, put 50,000 in it so you can get used to the platform. That's where they're doing everybody a big disservice because that's where if somebody gets a mentor like you or me, or you know, some of the other good people that you know that are helping traders. What we'll tell them is the SIM account is where you go practice your method. It's not the go play. This is where you go and you get good at your method. This is your practice zone. Because like with golf, it's a game of skill. And if you wanted to be a professional golfer, you wouldn't just, you know, go buy a good set of clubs and only play golf when it was tournament time. No, you'd be spending time over at the driving range working on your stance and your grip and your posture and your backswing and everything else. You'd be working on the par threes with your irons and your shirt.

Reminds me I need to work on, reminds me I need to work on all those things in my golf game. Yes.

Yeah, but the thing is, trading is no different. It's a game of skill, it's a mental activity, but it's a game of skill and you want to practice your skill and focus on getting good at the skill. That's what the SIM account is really for if you use it right.

Yeah, there's no question about that. And, and I, you know, I honor that And I agree 100% with that. I guess what I'm saying is that if you, similarly, if you SIM trade and you have six phantom success and you're ready to go for real, the next step is to test for prop trading and, and, and go for the I, I, I, I'm, I'm so enthusiastic about prop trading. I think that if you can get the, if you can understand your, your, or spend a very short amount of time on some nana and not keep going back to it. I, I'd rather see you reduce your position size to 2 micros and because once you take out the risk, you really don't know where you're at. From a standpoint of being able to, to actually make the trades. From a mental and emotional standpoint. What I'm saying is that rather than have three steps to the earning of the money, trading real money, getting, getting money into your account, why not two steps? Well again, the, the, the, the, the mechanics of running your trading plan, you really need to get that down in the sim. But once that's done, why not? Because I'll tell you, the, the fees are so small and when I say small to test right now, to test for a $50,000 account is $16.70 a month. That's what it is and it won't take you a month to, to make $3,000 on $50,000. And, and if you, if you blow out that account, you can reset that account for $40. But, but, but what you're better off doing is closing that account and opening a new one for $16. So I just saved everybody $26. But I'm just saying the fees are so small that, that you're not risking anything by, by having real value to the trade other than just phantom. The value being if you pass, you get to trade with real money. And, and so, you know, I'm not certainly. Listen, we all sim traded and, and every time you, you know, I, I, you and I both build trading plans and you've been, I've written books on it and I think you've written a book or two on, on or at least alluded to it in chapters. Because the idea is that, you know, you need to test and, and you know, that's where my sim training comes in, you know, back testing and, and, and envisioning what, what that is, you know, and I think you can get to that point once you, you know, have had some success in the industry, you know.

Well, while we're on a topic, and this was one when, when you said that you wanted to talk about proper trading, you know, and, and largely from a psychological standpoint, that, that got me kind of fired up because one thing I was thinking about and I haven't heard it talked about much is, you know, we've got a couple of different groups of traders. We got some people who are new to trading. They heard about prop firm trading and it's like, cool, because remember, it used to be the only barrier to entry for trading was if you didn't have money. And with prop firm trading, they removed that barrier. Now there's no barrier at all. If you can sign up for a prop firm account, if you're physically capable of doing that, you got 50 bucks, you can get started. You don't even have to have five grand anymore.

Right, right, right.

It doesn't matter where you come. Yeah, it's hilarious. I mean there's no barrier. It doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, what you look like, if you're smart or stupid or anything. It's like if you can open an account, you can trade.

But I've got a good psycho question for you because this amazed me in the beginning, very beginning, when I really started focusing on this about a year and a half ago. It's, it's traders with big money with bigger money, 100250 that are trading now that are props. They're the ones that slide right into prop trading. They say, why don't I take that 100 grand and make 5% of it and then use their money to, to speculate. They understand the notion more than what you would consider in the beginning. And that is the smaller accounts. I mean, I looked at this and said, why would anybody who's trading anything, 20,000 or less, why would anybody do anything else than, than do this when they can trade, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But why, why do you think that is? Why does the big money so easily understand this and the smaller money are still, you know, hesitant a bit?

That's, that's a deep question you're asking and you know it because it's deep.

But give me the, give me the borders because you're one of the few guys I can ask that question to.

Well, no, when somebody comes to me and I'll ask them, it's like, have you ever run your own business before? And if they say no, I've only, you know, been an employee all my life. You know, as far as that, you know, making money world, that lets me know that they've got two learning curves to go through. Because if you've only been an employee, you've got a whole set of beliefs and expectations and relate, you know, relationship with money and thoughts about, you know, the work versus pay kind of relationship and all that kind of stuff versus when you run your own business. Especially if you start a business and run it, you learn the lessons of patience, of understanding. Yeah, there may be a lot of work before you ever make money. There's going to be developmental cycles of different pieces of the business and be just looking at it like a business and the way, you know, the flow of money and all that kind of, kind of stuff anyway and a return on money and time and all that kind of stuff. It's a whole different mindset for me if you've only been an employee. And so that's part of why, yeah, somebody who's been able to amass a hundred thousand dollars or a quarter million dollars or five hundred thousand dollars. That's why we understand and look at money differently than somebody who's the most.

They'Ve ever been able to bucks. Yeah, that's the answer that I think is the. They understand what money making is all about. And it's about capturing money and then having it grow, you know, without the risk and continuing to just feed the slow money. With the, with the fast money, so to speak, they've learned how to do that well.

And the other thing that you learn in running your own business is preservation of capital. The other thing is, and this one I just got reminded of lately, and I, I was so thrilled to hear somebody else say it. And for the reminder, especially when you're starting off small, especially when you're starting off, the goal isn't necessarily to save money, it's to learn how to spend it properly, to make you money. So you get, you don't sit there and just try to, you know, be tight about everything. It's like, where can I go ahead and deploy what I've got? And deploy it in a manner that leverages things and gets me a proper return for both my time and my money. So you get wise with going ahead and using your resources. You don't try to. And the example the guy used, he's like, you know, if. If the business you're looking at building is only going to pay, you know, it's going to generate 50,000 a year in revenue, and you got a 50% margin, you're only going to make 25,000 a year. You're better off working at Starbucks. It's like, true. So you don't want to just, you know, be tight with your money. You want to understand. Okay, yeah. This is how once, when I'm, when I am bringing in money, I want to redeploy it, but do it in a very wise manner and make sure that I'm being smart about it.

Yeah. I got something to show you. Hey, hang on. I found this. I can't believe I found this. I was looking for it. You can't. It's hard to get this book. And I'm just telling everybody, if you can get this book. Can you see this? It's. It's hard to read. If I. It's Joe Ross's book. Oh, yeah, Joe. The late, great Joe Ross. Last year he passed. But it's called Trading is a Business. Trading is a Business. This is the quintessential book on how to frame and construct your, you know, your thinking. It kind of envelops a lot of the stuff that we've talked about. I'm sure I've drawn from it without realizing it when I, When I talk about, you know, running your trading as a business. But Joe was the quintessential guy. You know, he believed that that was it. And, you know, I think anybody that runs a business, for instance, simplicity. The more, the more, which is really Kind of an akin to focus. The simpler something is, the more you can focus on it and, and do it right. In fact, I, I probably talked to Joe, I don't know, two months before he passed away, and he said to me that he doesn't even read his own books anymore. He doesn't read anybody's books. He doesn't read anything. He doesn't take any more. Now, of course, you know, he was 80 plus, I think, but, but he, he thinks that. Listen, if you've been studying this for, for all these years, you know enough. So stop it. You know, stop the learning, start the focusing. Start realizing why you tend to have positive feelings about a trailing stop this way or, or you know, using this moving average or a tighter moving average. What made you comfortable in order and employ some of those avenues into your trading plan rather than trying to have you fit into your trading plan by, you know, meditating and. Which I think is all good and we do it all the time. This is part of what we do in our part of a company that, that deals with the mental and emotional tapping and eft and all of that is good. But if you could change your trading plan to fit who you are now rather than try to change you to fit, that's an even better path. You know, that's a better path. And you know enough. You know what you like, you know what you know what you don't like. You know what your weaknesses are in executing. My wife hates when I use that word. And it sounds like, you know, killing an account. Executing. Thank God, you know, my trading plan is called Loaded Gun. She hates that. I'm not an NRA guy per se, but, but you know, the trigger, one of the original triggers look like a loaded gun. She just hates that. In fact, I had somebody. This is the only, this is the, this is the only refund I've ever made on, on a personal coaching where they get a year for us unlimited. But it's mostly coaching in the mental area. The fact that our, the fact that pulling the trigger was used in one of the meditations to, you know, make things happen. Do it. When your trading plan tells you to do it, pull the trigger. And the trading plan was loaded gun. And yeah, he said, I'm uncomfortable with the way you guys proceed. And, and I understand that. I mean, these are common trading terms, right?

Yes, they are.

Gave him his money back. I mean, I, it was the only refund I've ever made based on. So if you ever work with me and you know that's Going to be probably the only reason I gave you my money back because it makes all the sense in the world. So but listen, it's all, you know, again, mental construct, you know.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Well anyway, so it's back to the, the question don't don't wanted to get your perspective on. We've got a couple of different groups of traders. We got, you know, some, some people who've got, you know, got enough money to trade their, their own account and choose not to decide to use the prop firm money. And then we've got the people who don't necessarily have, you know, 50 or $100,000 of their own money that want to trade a prop firm account. And so from, you know, the, the people that you've worked with, what would you say are, is like probably the number one thing that, that both groups need to be aware of and pay attention to in the pursuit of being, becoming a prop firm trader and doing it successfully.

Well, that's an excellent question. And again I'm going to go to the perception of, I think that when you, you, you have to, you have to focus on, on the prize where you want to go. And you know, when I asked that question, what do you want out of this? What out of prop trading, what do you want at the end? And I want a consistent income. That seems to be the, the most popular. Most of people say don't say I want to make a million dollars and that's it. They want a consistent income, something that they can count on. And that's, that's very doable with prop trading and it's very doable quickly in prop trading because if you start with a $50,000 account on your own, you got to build that to a million dollars before you can. In prop trading. For instance, I have 10 prop trading accounts that are qualified. I've got 7 50,000, I've got 10, 150,000. So that's $800,000 if you add it all up to grow your account to that rather than testing. And there's something called trade trade copier where you can actually put on a trade and it'll put it in all those accounts at the same time. So the guy's making the big money. There are people pulling out 100,000amonth in prop trading because they're doing it in separate 20 different accounts, you know, $5,000 each account or whatever. They're, they're, they're just, they've, they've figured it out. So what I would say is that, and there's some, there's a learning curve like there isn't everything else. And to get through that learning curve, you got to keep your eye on the prize. You got to keep your eye on where you're going to where you're going and, and, and, and, and get into those. There are certain groups that you can join, a certain art group we meet every Wednesday. And you hear some of these stories about, you know, how well people are doing it and it's people just like you. The more you believe that you belong there, no matter what your previous struggles are, the faster you're going to get there and the more you'll, you'll correct and go back in the right direction. So I think keeping your eye on the prize and understanding it's a, it's a business and that you need to learn from your mistakes like any business. And it's not dissimilar to normal trading. It's just that in a sense, prop, trading can accelerate that end result and therefore accelerate the issues that are going to hit you in the face as you move toward that. But the more you understand and associate with individuals who are winning and doing this, the more, the more it becomes a reality for you. So I think keeping that, keeping the end result in mind and being clear on that and understanding, you know, people ask themselves all the time, this person, I'm smarter than this person, I think I am. And yet they're making all the money. And now why are they so successful and not me? Well, I think you gotta, you know, drop the ego, of course, at least enough to let you know that information in on how you can correct and really model those individuals that are doing it. You know, I think you've talked a lot about that in the past.

Oh yeah. Well, you bring up a couple of really excellent points that, and I'm glad you reiterated it a few different times as far as, you know, you know, keeping your end goal in mind and just getting clear about what you're actually trying to get out of it. That's one where so many people, they don't understand if, if all the clarity you have is just, I want to make a lot of money, that's crap for your brain and your subconscious to work with. That sucks. Yeah, you have a tangible number is, yeah, I want to get to where I'm making ten grand a month. Now you got something for your brain to work with and a problem that it can focus on and actually move you in that direction. And so, yeah, you know, you saying get clear on what you want out of this is huge. Huge. That's a. If people. A lot of people will just do that, that's a huge step forward. And the other thing that you. You mentioned that I love is, you know, it's. I don't remember the exact word you used, but it was basically, you know, becoming the trader that you want to be and understanding that, yes, it's a shift in identity, because whoever you used to be and the life that you used to have, that person is not going to be a successful trader. You're going to have to go through some growth and you're going to become somebody different. You're actually going to have a shift in identity, not just skill, but in identity, who you are, how you see yourself, your beliefs about yourself and money and all kinds of stuff. There's going to be a huge shift as you go through this process. That's awesome, though. A lot of people, they don't realize that if they'll pay attention and understand. Yeah, this is actually what I'm stepping into. I'm gonna. I'm gonna become a different person. And because of that, now I'll be able to live a different life if.

I do it right, you know. Awesome. Yeah, that. That is awesome. And I'll tell you a quick story. My. When I met my wife 43 years ago, I. I was in San Francisco, and she was at a table with. It was a place called Henry Africa's. It was a. It was a fern bar. It had ferns in the. This is. This was big in San Francisco at the time. You know, people with the. With the T shirt with the. With the rainbow and. Yeah, Henry Africa's on Van Ness. And. And I. I had just been promoted to manager of one of the largest option firms in the country at the time. I was, you know, 20, late in my late 20s, 28, 29 years old. And I was. I was celebrating by my. You worked so hard. You don't have any friends. I'm sitting in the bar by myself, celebrating by myself with a drink. I see this table over there with three beautiful women. They were flight attendants. And I. I said to myself, hey, it's a big day for me. And I. And, hey, I won Biggest flirt in high school. You know, my twin brother won Most Likely to Succeed and most Talented. He had to choose for the full page they gave it. I didn't have to choose. I said, biggest flirt. You get the page. So I'm looking at these women and I pick. I pick one out, you know, in my. In my. You know, in My manly way. And I walk over there and I said, whatever. I said, that's a controversial. My wife will say. I said, you know, what are you doing Friday night? Something stupid. But anyway, I wound up walking her to her car. Yeah. And she said to me, what do you do for a living now? I'm trading options. And it was the Wild west pretty much at that time. And I said to myself, I can't tell her I'm a trainer. She'll think I'm, you know, I'm a gambler. I said, you know, I'm a philanthropist. That's what I told her. I didn't know what the word meant. I'm a philanthropist. And she didn't know what the word I don't think meant at the time.

She had to look it up.

But now, now every time, you know, the right. In the end of the year, we decide which charities we want to give to. And every time I want to write a, you know, thousand dollar check, she says, make that 2000, you're a philanthropist. She still reminds me. But my point to that story is that even as, you know, even running one of the largest firms, which actually was what happened about six months after that, you know, you, you're, you're reticent, you're not sure whether you want to tell people that you're a trader. There's a lack of pride at that time for me, I, I still hadn't observed I was more running things than trading, you know, and, and so I think that when I became, when I started to have some off time from running the place and started actually trading and, and realizing the potential there for myself, that's when I decided I would go to a cocktail party and say I'm a trader. And what I wound up seeing is that people, they were very interested. I think, you know, everybody wants to be a successful trader, you know, in the back of their mind to be able to look at a chart, decide, you know, where, where the opportunity is and, and take it. So, you know, I, I got a kick out of what you said, just said because really I think which works into the, there's a pride in trading. I mean, if you can't, if you can't say with pride that I'm a, I'm a successful day trader, it's going to be tough for you. You know, you have to, you have to live it and be, and be proud of it, you know, because it is something to be proud of. You say, well, what am I doing? You know, I'm just buying and selling stuff. Is that really what am I loaning to the world? Well, you're learning a lot to the world. First of all, you can help other people do the same thing who may be in the need you were that you're not in anymore. You could, you know, but, but from a technical standpoint, we're the people that supply the volume. Whether we supply the. We, we supply the action literally for others who are doing trading for a different reason, for balanced portfolios or retirement or whatever. But the idea is that we do play a, an essential part in the whole trading game and that there is a, you know, it's a very responsible and very positive career to be in and so be proud. But that pride is what allows you to vision in a responsible way and a focused way. That, that's for me, that's where I'm going. That's where I want to be, you know, so essential, so essential.

Well, tell you what, let's go and wrap this up here fairly soon. But I, I want to make sure that we, we let everybody know in case they're not already familiar with what all you do at the discipline trader. You got different, you got different things that you, you offer and different ways to help traders. And I know over, over years things have evolved and you've done different things. What do you got going on right now? Do you have anything new coming up on the horizon?

Well, I'm writing a book called your money, Their, their money, your profit that should be coming out in late August, early September. I'm doing the initial editing now. But to talk about some of these things that I've realized for those people, because I believe it's, it's growing. You know, I know Apex has paid out over $70 million in the last 90 days to traders where they've paid out almost 200,000 in the last 2 years. So if they paid out 200,000 in the last 2years and 70,000 of that has been in the last 3 months, that's how fast they're growing, that's how fast they're growing. So, you know, this is something that's. But, but you're going to have to find responsible firms. You're going to have to difference. Some of them we're discussing here. I've talked about the two position two contracting that helps you stay away from the red line. There's probably 4,70,000 of that has been in the last three months. That's how fast they're growing. That's how fast they're growing. So, you know, this is something that's. But, but you're going to have to find responsible firms. You're going to have to understand the difference. Some of them we're discussing here, I've talked about the two position to contracting that helps you stay away from the red line. There's probably four. That's how fast they're growing. So you know, this is something that's. But, but you're going to have to find responsible firms. You're going to have to understand the difference. Some of them we're discussing here four or five major things like that, that if you understand. So we have again we're always doing the mental piece and we have the personal one on one coaching and our disciple trader mastery program. And then we, we've been focusing a lot lately last couple of years on this prop trading because I think it is the future and, and I believe I can, you know, I, I understand that I've, I'm winning in it and so I want to pass that knowledge down. That's. So if one goes to their, their money, your profit.com they will see the trading plan that we offer that has really adjusted itself toward this prop trading thing. Their money, your profit.com and did I give a, a a discount code for you? I'm not sure if I did. I'd like to give your people, you know it's, it's a 2500 extravaganza. But for let's, let's think of a code that I can, I can put in that can. Let's just put inside out. Inside out. Let's use inside out as a, as a coupon code and if you, if you check out at that point, at that page their money your profit.com and use inside out as a, as a coupon code. You'll, you'll get it for 1212,005 or 1250 dollars. And that includes one on one coaching with me for 90 days, unlimited sessions, as many as you need to, to get the process, the process down and I'll, I'll go with you through this process of getting funded and finally money in your account. We can do it together. So that, that's what I'm offering right now and I think you know that that's, that's pretty, it's very satisfying for me and of course for those that have taken advantage of that.

So yeah, very cool what you're doing and everybody that's listening. So you know, Norma's been around a spell. He, he's one of the, he's probably the main guy Back in 2006, when I first started, started helping other traders, he, Norman here was instrumental in helping me get off the ground. And so he's been around a long time. A lot of people in the space know him. He's been around for a long time and helped like thousands of traders over the years. He's a good guy, A good guy, a lot of high integrity. His heart's in the right place. And if the, you know, you know, prop firm trading is of interest to you at all, I strongly recommend that you, you know, reach out to him, connect with him and enlist his services. It will be well worth your investment, I absolutely guarantee it. Because like I said, he knows what he's doing, his heart's in the right place. And it just, it's a, it's a smart decision. And so if you actually want to win at this game, get good help, like with Norman, that's your best bet. Just flat out, hands down, if you don't do anything else, that would be the best thing for you to do. If you like, if you only got to do one thing, getting good help is the best way to do it.

So I appreciate that. And you know, I think you and I and, and Joe and there's one, there's only one, one more room for one more on the Mount Rushmore of 50,000. I've got 10, 150,000. So that's $800,000 if you add it all up to grow your account to that rather than testing. And there's something called trade, trade copier where you can actually put on a trade and it'll put it in all those accounts at the same time. So the guys making big money, there are people pulling out a hundred thousand a month in prop trading because they're doing it in separate 20 different accounts, you know, $5,000 each account or whatever. They're, they're, they're just, they've, they've figured it out. So what I would say is that, and there's some, there's a learning curve like there isn't everything else. And to get through that learning curve, you got to keep your eye on, put it in all those accounts at the same time. So the guys making big money, there are people pulling out a hundred thousand a month in prop trading because they're doing it in separate 20 different accounts, you know, $5,000 each account or whatever. They're, they're, they're just, they've, they've figured it out. So what I would say is that, and there's some There's a learning curve like the prize. You got to keep your eye on where you're going to where you're going and, and, and, and, and get into those. There are certain groups that you can join, certain art group. We meet every Wednesday and you hear some of these stories about, you know, how well people are doing it and it's people just like you. The more you believe that you belong there, there isn't everything else. And to get through that learning curve, you got to keep your eye on the prize. You got to keep your eye on where you're gonna, where you're going and, and, and, and, and get into those. There are certain groups that you can join a certain art group. We meet every Wednesday and you hear some of these stories about, you know, how well people, no matter what your previous struggles are, the faster you're going to get there and the more you'll, you'll correct and go back in the right direction. So I think keeping your eye on the prize and understanding it's a, it's a business and that you need to learn from your mistakes like any business. And it's, it's not dissimilar to normal trading. It's just that in a sense, prop trading can accelerate that end result and therefore accelerate the issues that are going to hit you in the face. And it's people just like you. The more you believe that you belong there, no matter what your previous struggles are, the faster you're going to get there and the more you'll, as you move toward that. But the more you understand and associate with individuals who are winning and doing this, the more, the more it becomes a reality for you. So I think keeping that, keeping the end result in mind and being clear on that and understanding, you know, people ask themselves all the time, this person, I'm smarter than this person. I think I am. And yet they're making all the money. You know, why are they so successful and not me? Well, I think you gotta, you know, drop the ego, of course, at least enough to let you know that information in on, on how you can correct and really model those individuals that are doing it. You know, I think you've, you, you've talked a lot about that in the past.

Oh yeah. Well, you bring up a couple of really excellent points that, and, and I'm glad you reiterated it a few different times as far as, you know, you know, keeping your end goal in mind and just getting clear about what you're actually trying to get out of it. That's one where so Many people, they don't understand if. If all the clarity you have is just, I want to make a lot of money, that's crap for your brain and your subconscious to work with. That sucks. Yeah, you have a tangible number is, yeah, I want to get to where I'm making ten grand a month. Now you got something for your brain to work with and a problem that it can focus on and actually move you in that direction. And so, yeah, you know, you saying get clear on what you want out of this is huge. Huge. That's a. If people. A lot of people will just do that. That's a huge step forward. And the other thing that you. You mentioned that I love is, you know, it's. I don't remember the exact word you used, but it was basically, you know, becoming the trader that you want to be and understanding that, yes, it's a shift in identity, because whoever you used to be and the life that you used to have, that person is not going to be a successful trader. You're going to have to go through some growth and you're going to become somebody different. You're actually going to have a shift in identity, not just skill, but in identity, who you are, how you see yourself, your beliefs about yourself and money and all kinds of stuff. There's going to be a huge shift as you go through this process.

And that's cool.

That's awesome, though. And a lot of people, they don't realize that if. They'll pay attention and understand. Yeah, this is actually what I'm stepping into. I'm gonna. I'm gonna become a different person. And because of that, now I'll be able to live a different life if.

I do it right, you know.

That's freaking awesome.

Yeah, that. That is awesome. And I'll tell you a quick story, Mike. When I met my wife 43 years ago, I was in San Francisco, and she was at a table with. It was a place called Henry Africa's. It was a. It was a fern bar. It had ferns in the. This is. This was big in San Francisco at the time. You know, people with the. With the T shirt with the. With the rainbow. Henry Africa's on Van Ness. And I. I had just been promoted to manager of one of the largest option firms in the country. At the time. I was, you know, 20, late in my late 20s, 28, 29 years old. And I was. I was celebrating by my. You work so hard, you don't have any friends. So I'm sitting in the bar by myself, celebrating by myself. With a drink. I see this table over there with three beautiful women. They were flight attendants. And I, I said to myself, hey, it's a big day for me. And I. And hey, I won biggest flirt in high school. You know, my twin brother, one most likely succeed and most talented. He had to choose for the full page. They gave it. I didn't have to choose. I said, biggest flirt, you get the page. So I'm looking at these women and I pick, I pick one out, you know, in my, in my, you know, in my manly way. And I walk over there and I said, whatever. I said that, that's a controversial. My wife will say. I said, you know, what are you doing Friday night? Something stupid. But anyway, I wound up walking her to her car. And she said to me, what do you do for a living now? I'm trading options. And it was the wild west pretty much at that time. Well, and I said to myself, I can't tell her I'm a trainer. She'll think, you know, I'm a gambler. I said, you know, I'm a philanthropist. That's what I told her. I didn't know what the word meant at the time. I'm a philanthropist. And she didn't know what the word I don't think meant at the time.

She had to look it up as we got home.

But now, now every time, you know, right in the end of the year, we decide which charities we want to give to. And every time I want to write a, you know, thousand dollar check, she says, make that 2000. You're a philanthropist. She still reminds me way back. But my point of that story is that even as, you know, even running one of the largest firms, which actually was, what happened about six months after that, you know, you, you're, you're reticent, you're not sure whether you want to tell people that you're a trader. There's a lack of pride at that time. For me, I, I still hadn't. I was more running things than trading, you know, and, and so I think that when I became, when I started to have some off time from running the place and started actually trading and, and realizing the potential there for myself, that's when I decided I would go to a cocktail party and say, I'm a trader. And what I wound up seeing is that people, they were very interested. I think, you know, everybody wants to be a successful trader, you know, in the back of their mind to be able to look at a chart, decide, you know, where, where the opportunity is and and take it. So, you know, I, I got a kick out of what you said, just said, because really, I think. Which works into the. There's a pride in trading. I mean, if you can't, if you can't say with pride that I'm a, I'm a successful day trader, it's going to be tough for you. You know, you have to, you have to live it and be, and be proud of it, you know, because it is something to be proud of. You say, what am I doing? You know, I'm, I'm just buying and selling stuff. Is that really. What am I loaning to the world? Well, you're learning a lot to the world. First of all, you can help other people do the same thing who may be in the knee you were that you're not in anymore. You could, you know, but, but from a technical standpoint, we're the people that supply the volume. Whether we supply the. We, we supply the action literally for others who are doing trading for a different reason for balanced portfolios or retirement or whatever. But the idea is that we do play an essential part in the whole trading game and that there is a, you know, it's a very responsible and very positive career to be in and so be proud. But that pride is what allows you to vision in a responsible way and a focused way. That, that's, for me, that's where I'm going. That's where I want to be, you know, so essential, so essential.

Well, tell you what, let's go and wrap this up here fairly soon. But I, I want to make sure that we, we let everybody know in case they're not already familiar with what all you do at the discipline trader, you got different, you got different things that you, you offer and different ways to help traders. And I know over, over years things have evolved and you've done different things. What do you got going on right now? Do you have anything new coming up on the horizon?

Well, I'm writing a book called your money, Their, Their money, your profit that should be coming out in late August, early September. I'm doing the initial editing now. But to talk about some of these things that I've realized for those people, because I believe it's, it's growing. You know, I know Apex has paid out over $70 million in the last 90 days to traders where they've paid out almost 200,000 in the last two years. So if they paid out 200,000 in the last two Years and that should be coming out in late August, early September, I'M doing the initial editing now but to talk about some of these things that I've realized for those people because I believe it's 70,000 of that has been in the last three months. That's how fast they're growing. It's growing. You know, I know Apex has paid out over $70 million in the last 90 days to traders where they've paid out almost 200 billion. That's how fast they're growing. So you know this is something that's. But, but you're going to have to find responsible firms. You're going to have to understand the difference. Some of them we're discussing here 1,000 in the last two years. So if they paid out 200,000 in the last two years and about the 2 position to contracting that helps you stay away from the red line. There's probably 4,70,000 of that has been in the last three months. That's how fast they're growing. That's how fast they're growing. So you know this is something that's. But, but you're going to have to find responsible firms. You're going to have to understand the difference. Some of them we're discussing here four or five major things like that that if you understand. So we have again we're always doing the mental piece and we have the personal one on one coaching and our disciplinary mastery program. And then we, we've been focusing a lot lately the last couple of years on this prop trading because I think it is the future and, and I believe I can, you know I, I understand that I, I'm winning in it and so I want to pass that knowledge down. That's so if one goes to their, their money, your profit.com they will see the trading plan that we offer that has really about the two position to contracting that helps you stay away from the red line. There's probably four, four or five major things like that that if you understand. So we have again we're always doing. Adjusted itself toward this prop trading thing. Their money, your profit.com and did I give a, a discount code for you? I'm not sure if I did. I'd like to give your people, you know it's, it's a twenty five hundred dollar extravaganza. But for let's, let's think of a code that I can, I can put in that can. Let's just put inside out. Inside out. Let's use inside out as a, as a coupon code. And if you, if you check out at that point the mental piece and we have the personal one on one coaching and our disciple trader point at that. Page their money your profit.com and use inside out as a, as a coupon code. You'll, you'll get it for 12, 12,005 or 1250 and that includes one on one coaching with me for 90 days, unlimited sessions, as many as you need to, to get the process, the process down. And I'll, I'll go with you through this process of getting funded and, and finally money in your account and we can do it together. So that, that's what I'm offering right now. And I think you know that that's, that's pretty, it's very satisfying for me and of course for those that have taken advantage of that.

So yeah, very cool what you're doing and everybody that's listening. So, you know, Norman's been around a spell. He, he's one of the, he's probably the main guy. Back in 2006 when I first started, started helping other traders, he, Norman here was instrumental in helping me get off the ground. And so he's been around a long time. A lot of people in the space know him, he's been around for a long time and helped like thousands of traders over the years. It's a good guy, a good guy, a lot of high integrity, his heart's in the right place. And if the, the, you know, you know, prop firm trading is of interest to you at all, I strongly recommend that you, you know, reach out to him, connect with him and enlist his services. It will be well worth your investment, I absolutely guarantee it. Because like I said, he knows what he's doing, his heart's in the right place and he just, it's a, it's a smart decision. And so if you actually want to win at this game, get good help like with Norman, that's your best bet. Just flat out, hands down. If you don't do anything else, that would be the best thing for you to do if you like. If you only got to do one thing, getting good help is the best way to do it.

So I appreciate that and you know, I think you and I and, and Joe and there's one, there's only one, one more room for one more on the Mount Rushmore of, of mental training in, in trading. So, and you're on it. You're on it. I mean you, what I love about it is that you take a slightly different avenue with the same result that I do. And so I've always, I've always appreciated that about you. You know, there's a lot of different ways to get to the same place. I guess trading plans will, the different trading plans can tell you that. But I appreciate the kind words and, and I guess we've always had a special bond because of, you know, our focus on the mental part of what anything that we do, because that's really the bugaboo with much traders that are not succeeding. You know, it's doable. Just got to do it, you know.

Yep. Yes, indeed. Well, Norman, how excellent you been on today? And again, it's their money, your profit.com, right.

And use the coupon code, get the book.

Sign up for, sign up for Norman's help. Again, you will be glad you did. If you're at all serious about, you know, making a success of this, get good help. And Norman is probably the best guy you can be working with. And just like I said it, you know, from a, an easy, you know, an easiest path there and the smartest move there to actually get there and make it work. It's a smart move. So do it. And for everybody that's listening today, I applaud you for taking time out of your day to focus on, you know, learning and becoming a better trader. Not just chasing strategies or chasing shiny objects, but actually looking to better yourself as a trader and get good help. So keep up the good work, don't let this pass and just say, yeah, you know, that was cool. And then tomorrow you've forgotten about it like an old newspaper, act on it. If this resonates with you and let it make a difference in your trading, you'll be again, you'll be glad you did so. And if you, if you enjoyed this, go ahead and subscribe. This is the, this is what we talk about on the podcast is how to be a successful trader. The different ways to get there, the different perspectives and help that's out there. And you know, generally, again, how to be a successful trader. Not just how to, you know, make money, but this is how to become that trader that's going to be successful and know that you're there. And so again, you know, subscribe to the podcast, give us a like and, you know, share with your friends. If you got friends that like you already and they trade, share this with them. And if you found it helpful and if, you know, if it helps them, they'll like you even more. So, you know, yeah, share it with your friends.

Even if you don't have friends, use his friends. Use your neighbor's friends.

True. Anyway, again, thanks, man, and thanks for having me.

I appreciate it. Always, always enjoy the, you know, the angle that, that only you and I really can. Very few of us can play in that area for a full half hour and it's just so important. So I really appreciate the opportunity.

Indeed, indeed. I always, always have. It's always good to catch up with you, Norman and everybody, you know, thanks again and you know, Glenn, we'll see you on the next episode of the Consistent Profits podcast. Take care, everybody. Talk to you soon. Thank you for joining us today on the Consistent Profits podcast, brought to you by Inside Out Trading. Make sure to swing by InsideOutTrading.com and pick up your free copy of break the cycle 10 things you can do to stop reinforcing the past and get your trading on the right track. If you enjoyed the show, make sure to subscribe on your favorite channel and we'll see you on the next episode. Cheers.

With the same result that I do. And so I've always appreciated.