DEI in LATAM; Challenges, Biases, and Driving Change

Welcome to the Nearshore Cafe podcast, home to the most interesting stories and people doing business in Latin America.

Welcome everyone, to another episode of the Nearshore Cafe podcast. I'm Brian Sampson, your host. And first, let me just give a quick shout out to our sponsor for the day that is near shore direct go nearshore direct.com, a great way to find talent all over Latin America for US Companies. I am so excited to welcome our guest today, Melina Mesnada. Her friends, and hopefully we can do this the same. We will call her Meli. Mellie, so nice to have you.

Hi, Brian. Thank you so much for the invitation. It's so important to me stay here and have this chat with you.

Absolutely. So, Mellie, your background is really, really impressive. You've done all sorts of fun and interesting things. What I think would be interesting for the show is we talk a lot with business leaders all over Latin America. Argentina is a country that comes up quite a bit. Why don't we just start with where you are and where you grew up? Can you walk us through that?

I grew up in a little town in Patagonia, Argentina, near, off the beach. And so it's a wonderful place to, you know, have your first step and spread your wildness. And I think because Patagonia is so huge in a way and you are in very close experiences with the nature. And so I learned a lot at that time about death and life and cycles and these kind of things that in our days, we talk a lot, but it's something disruptive in a way. And for me, it was very interesting to understand and being part of my. My identity.

I've had the pleasure to spend some time in Patagonia. I was in Charlton and El Calafate for people who've never been to those places. And also I didn't have the chance to go to Bariloche, but I've seen pictures. It's absolutely beautiful. What should people who've never been to Patagonia, how would you describe it? You know, what would you share with them?

The landscape are beautiful. Like they are a postal, a picture, like a movie. You know, when you are in this kind of Discovery Channel, it's these kind of things. But at the same time, you have a history, you have indigenous people who also are there, and nobody talks about that. And it's very interesting because you have a mix of cultures and also people who. It's very interesting to try to create a new life there. Many people who is from a city or an urban city, cities, they Go to Patagonia to create something different. So the idea of community is very present. And for me, something that is an inspiration. And you have a lot of different idea of immigration at the same time, because you have to create something from the scratch. And that is the best lane of this way of being. And at the same time, I think people, people have this respect of how to create something different. But at the same time with the nature and the idea of sustainability and the connection with the government at the same time, because something connected with the legal things and so on is very new. It's something that people and the town is very strong in that way. And for example, if some kind of oil industry wants to create something, the town and the people are always very present and know is something very important to take care as human. And we want to do it. And I think that is something impressive at the same time.

Absolutely. Are you still an outdoorsy type of person? Do you still enjoy hiking and doing all the outdoor type things?

Yes, but right now I'm in the, you know, Buenos Aires and it's a very huge city. But sometimes when I open my door, my door and the window of my home, I could see and I thinking we create mountains, you know, the buildings are mountains. In a way, we want to recreate that kind of things. And it's very crazy because I have this metaphor in my, in my mindset and I could see that and I always need that kind of fresh air. Good tomatoes and good food and good things that are in that kind of places. Here in the city, everything is very, you know, industrial and you couldn't have these kind of things.

Absolutely. I wanted to start with a topic that is quite important across the world. We talk a lot about it in Silicon Valley and tech world, but it's certainly impacting everywhere is diversity and inclusion. Can you tell us more about how you first started to think about this? And you know, and you've obviously made this a big part of your career journey and it's something that you speak a lot about, you write a lot about. But how did this all start?

Well, I think being part of Patagonia, where everything, you know, multiculturalism is very present. I think it for me was like a shift, like this is part of everything. But then when I was a teenager, I used to be a classical dancer. So I have to travel to Buenos Aires to the Cologne Theater to be part of that thing. And then I was adolescent and I think here is something that is broken. And the thing that I connect the women in, in the ballet, we have to struggle a lot, show a lot that we, we deserve. We, we are someone who could create something different. But the choreographers, most of them are men. So it's very crazy because we are like a puppet. Like, yeah, they say how to. We have to move. And I think for me it was the first time that I could see, oh, this is unfair, I couldn't be a choreographer. Why I have to dance or show that I'm values or I have a value. And the competition is very hard because you have a lot of women and a few men that are the partners. And so I think that for me that was the turning point to change my vision and change glasses, like, hey, this is different. And then through my entire career I could find this pattern that was in the classical dance field. But when I start trying to connect education and because I want to change the way we learn in the art field, I could find the same women. We teach, we have these kind of roles in education and we are the most people working actively, but the people who decide our how to move in this field, how to be a leader and so on, most of them are mental. So I connect with that. Okay, this is broken too. And you know, a director of a school, a principal of a school, I think in us is pretty similar and around the world. And I think I have to change this in a way. And through that journey, I turned my career to the technological and education field. And there I found again, technological field is very pretty, male. And so men create the rules and women are the people who have to, you know, being the best, but doing that kind of rules. And that was my turning point to create something different. And that's why I create with another group, Chicassent Technologia or Girls in Tech. And to try to reconnect these things through this journey. I wake up and I could see also other kind of diversity. You know, in technological field we have neurodiversity, we don't talk a lot about that. We have multiculturalism, we have another kind of field. And one thing that today is my main concern is the generational diversity because we connect technology with young people. And it's not true because the people who take the decision are not young. The young are the people who buy these ideas or create a part of the, I don't know, a software or something like that. And so for me was a completely journey, as you mentioned. But I think the most interesting is we are in a great moment to have a protagonism and also to be Aware that diversity, equity and inclusion are three different concepts. But the three concepts are dynamics. And we are people who have to put it in a context, give meaning, but be very aware of the impact. Everything for me also is connected with leadership because we haven't got these ideas connected with leadership and indeed the role models and so on. Everything around that concept, always with work split in a way we have leadership and in the other hand we have diversity, equity and inclusion. And I think we have to also connect these fields and try to get the most.

Yeah, I'm particularly interested because you've worked in these different institutions, you know, in dance and then technology and you know, other other types of organizations. How the tech industry maybe the same and how is it different when it comes to diversity and inclusion within Argentina?

Tough question. I think technology have the power to change everything because it's in everything right now. We haven't got way of go out of the idea of technology. And I think technology have a very potential to change things because if we change for example, a rule or something like that, the power is exponential. But through the last years, where the technology become more powerful, men create these kind of rules, change the rules in a way. And so sorry for saying this Brian, but America, why with the particular things like you are who the people who is changing the things. Of course. And also I'm. I'm talking in. In a very privileged way because in Latin America women have differences. We have this intersection, intersectionality also. And you're connecting with your question. I think this is a very crucial moment to have the tough ideas on the table, have the data. Because we always say this phrase like we take decisions, databases and so on. And it's not true at the end of the day because we have a lot of bias and so on. Maybe the business at the beginning of this kind of reconnection or rethinking of the purpose of the tech field is not going to be very. We have to pay. And that is the thing that nobody wants to talk about it. We have to pay for the price of what we did wrong and connecting with artificial intelligence and so on and the technology that are in the field right now. We have a huge problem because we know that everything is very, very in a hurry, changing the things. But at the end the problem is one we have to put on a stop. Have the tough question, try to be a good mirror. Like this is the mirror of the society is for real or is the mirror that we want to create of the society? Because if not we have this huge problem And I think that the next generation are going to say, hey, you live in this moment. What, what did you do for that? And I'm paying also for this problem. And I think try to be very aware of that. It's not only part of the tech field, it's also part of the government and the public sector.

And each person, yeah, it's really changing the world for what you want it to be for, for where you want to take it. And that's a great point about the mirror. You know, I remember years ago I was head of recruiting for a tech startup in the US and we were, you know, maybe 30 or 40 people, and I brought up the topic of diversity. You know, maybe we should start thinking about diversity. And like most tech startups, also in, you know, the U.S. it was heavily heavy mail, right? Heavy mail, especially engineering and product. And what I heard back was we need to worry about survival first, then we'll worry about diversity. Right? We need to get our startup to a certain place and then we'll worry about it then. Right. It was a hard thing to hear, but I don't think that startup was by itself in saying that. I think other startups probably felt the same thing. And then you also look at who are the startup founders in the US at least it's mostly men who is receiving venture capital. It's mostly male startup founders. Right. So that means you have this inertia and momentum. And then the rare companies that make it to a certain size and scale, all of a sudden now they have to change this momentum. All right. I'm curious if you see a similar makeup and ecosystem in Argentina. Is it, is it similar like that or are there any differences?

I think it's similar because we want to copy and cut if we want as a startup, we want to have investors. We always are looking forward looking for this kind of us is to have and, you know, Silicon Valley and so on are the role models in a way. And so that is the problem for me because as a region, not only as Argentina, we have a good, you know, possibilities to change things. Especially because I always say, like, we live in the future in a way we have less resources, we have to do everything with zero money and so on. So we are very, you know, you have to think out of the box, but it's part of the survival thing here. And so in a way we invest in, for example, in networking, in the way of how we could create a life balance and these kind of things because we have this idea of the family is important. The time is different, everything is different as culture. And so in a way we have very good things to try to change. The recipes that we want to buy every day. But we have this contradiction of well, okay, but if we want to grow up or if we want to be popular or have this, you know, the COVID magazine in Forbes and so on, we have to be the cool entrepreneur that go to us and they have some money and so on. And this is tricky because we have this contradiction, but we have the possibilities to change things because as you mentioned, the system is broken in a way. And so we have to create new solutions. But the new solutions, maybe they already exist. And the problem is where we are seeking for that kind of solutions. And sometimes I love to think about how to change the. The idea of Latin America being like our Silicon Valley and something different of Silicon Valley because we don't have to create that, we have to create that.

You don't have to do everything right. It's still early enough where you have the power to set the culture, set the tone.

Yeah. And sometimes we haven't got the technological resources and that is a good thing because we always are thinking about the low and high tech, the digital thing, but also the low tech thing and the possibilities, the infrastructure and it's something very powerful in a way because sustainability is going to have this connection and it's very, you know, accurate the way that we resolve things.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I wanted to ask you, you know, we're, we're talking a lot about Argentina, which is one of my favorite places. But I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about the rest of Latin America because you've also had the chance to work across these different country borders. Can you tell us about DEI across Latin America and maybe trends that you'd like us to know about?

I was working for the American bank and we found that we have a problem here in Latin America that is the poverty, but at the same time the aging is a problem, the generational thing, but because we have a lot of good things connected with, connecting with, for example, adolescents that are mothers, that kind of things change here we have a lot of access methods and supplying programs to try to aware the population about, oh, you could have this kind of health, reproductive health on your hands and so on. So that changed a lot the way of working and also the projection of the population because we are going to be a very old as the world, but particularly in Latin America, something that we never saw or see people who have in the middle Or I don't know, 60 years or something like that with poverty is going to be a problem. So in a way that is a trend to change the access of, you know, how to change things. And this is a good thing, but we have to put a focus on that. And the other thing I think the idea of the multiculturalism connected with the indigenous we have there also failing for. For our route. Because for example, in the case of Argentina we have a lot of immigration, so it's very different of the other countries. And also the indigenous they have a lot of previous problem and it's a whole thing and we don't talk about that. And also we don't talk for example about African people who went to Argentinas in migrate and how they mix it and so on. So I think that the thing connecting with the multiculturalism and the connection that we never talk about that we have this narrative that are very present, but we don't talk about that. And it's a problem for me it's a problem because if our. Is our identity and in a way that is a thing. The other thing is diversity connected with accessibility. We have this idea of everything must be very perfect families and because most of the countries are Catholic and so the family. And the family with this photo of mother, father, the daughter and the son are perfect. It's a problem also in the. In the idea of this is not true. And we have a lot of diversity inside us families, but we don't talk about that.

Yeah.

And the last I think is how to rethink the role of the women, as you mentioned. Because it's true that for example, Argentina is very different on Chile or why or. But we have a lot of problems. We have murders, we have a lot of issues connecting with violence. And sometimes it's not only physical violence, it's also, you know, this kind of micro violences or micro situation of how a boss or give you the pay gap or these kind of things around. How to be a women in Latin America, I think is a huge problem, but was a trending. But right now it's continuing being a trendy. And so we could see some little changes at least at the government level or campaigns or NGOs. We have that on the agenda. But the intersectionality as I mentioned is also the problem because we have these mixes, these differences between cultures and sometimes we don't talk about that.

Yeah, yeah. I also wanted to ask you about Wikimedia, you know, which is an interesting organization because it's a tech company, but it's really a nonprofit and it's so global, although it's US Headquartered. What did that mean for you to work in that type of environment? And maybe how was it similar to the US and how was it different having you were in the Argentina division or subsidiary? I'm not sure how it was organized.

Yeah, well, was a very interesting experience indeed. I'm an editor in our days when I could, I tried to do some different articles. For me at that time, Wikimedia having got a educational program not only in Argentina, around the world. And the main program was the educational field. Like educators always say, oh, Wikipedia is the world and it's not a source. And students copy and cut information pretty similar as ChatGPT. Right now, you know, we have the same problem. Fifteen years later we are at the same page. And so at that moment they, they say, oh, we need someone who create this program. Could be in Argentina. I think because it's cheaper in a way. Like I said, okay, yes, come on, give me the problem I'm going to create. But it was amazing. They give me a lot of, you know, freedom to create and to rethink. And so at the same time that I create that program, we translate in, I don't know, most of, most of, I don't know, 300 languages around the country, around the world. And so was a shock like, oh my God, this is, you know, and a teacher from, I don't know, one little town in Asia is working with this material. And that is the power of Wikimedia. I think Wikimedia have this spirit that when someone connect the idea and understand the idea of creating commons and the idea of the freedom about technology and the commonwealth and the community. I think that for me, community is everything and everything is for free. People is volunteered, are in, in this way working as volunteer. And that for me was a turning point to understand how works technology for the, you know, for the good. But we have again the problem as I don't know if someone listen this, I challenge that person to, you know, go to Wikipedia, click on edition and try to understand how that article is created and how is something that have, you know, is a living thing because you have the chat and you have the forum and you have many people very, very passionate trying to have the sources and understand if your position is good or bad or what is going to happen, you know, what is going on, if some statement is there because at the same time that you are editing that sometimes a person is taking that as the whole thing. And I Think that is the moment that you understand the power and the ethical way of working in technology. Because you are not only a user, you are a producer, pro, consumer. And for me, I think we have to learn a lot of the journey that Wikimedia already done. I have a lot of, you know, good manifests, good things like common rules, because indeed, it's a huge community. But talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, at the moment that I was working in this, I. I have, you know, I understand that only the 8% of editors around the world were women. So we have a problem there. Only the 8%. So we create a lot of programs to encourage women to edit, but we have a lot of problems because sometimes women feel like, oh, I'm not feel so sure. And so in that moment, you have the community that is telling you, be very aware and be. Take care of this. And so if you haven't got this identity or digital identity, very, very strong, like, come on, Sharad, I'm going to write and I'm going to give you the answer. I'm going to put the source, the primary source and so on is probably a way of saying, okay, I'm going to. This is not for me. Goodbye. And that. That happened at that moment. And I'm not so sure if we are in a different pattern right now, but I think because this is a systematic problem.

Yeah. Mellie, I've got a few more questions for you and we'll lighten things up a little bit. At the end of last year, it was a big moment for Argentina with the World Cup. Where were you when it happened? How did you celebrate?

I was with my family. I have a baby. So when everybody was screaming like, yeah, go. She's like, oh, my God, what is going on? Where I'm. Where I choose to, you know, burn. This is not the correct place. And yes, was very dramatic. And I, you know, I live some blocks in the. Near the downtown, so it was a crazy thing. You know, people were screaming and jumping and. And no. And in a way that I think also we have. We were strongly a lot with the. The economical issues, the socia show social. Sorry. Issues. We have a lot of issues as a society. So I think we feel this like a relief. And it's not only to win a cup, a World cup, it's also, you know, the. The life and the journey of the hero that Messi already done. And all the players, like, they struggle a lot and so on. So you feel like this is so. Being an Argentinian, you feel like, yes, Suffering is part of the creation. And you could do this. And also for us, I think was in a way, like we could work together. Because here you have a lot of, you know, you already know. Brian. I imagine the profile of Argentinian, like when you are, you know, in a lonely place, you have less resources, you. You do everything good, you know, you. But you are in a way, a little bit individualism. You have this problem, like, I'm messy, I'm not a part of the team. And I think we learned in this last World cup that we could be a good team. It's not only lonely leaders doing the thing. And I think that was inspiration for me and for the whole country because we are in the middle of something not so good as, you know, the economical, as I mentioned, the economical issue, social issue and so on. So we have to work together to create something differently. The last year here. Sometimes you decide to. Don't look the problem. Try to, you know, this is not my problem. And it is so being part of something bigger, being part of. Be part of a community or of the sensation of that. I'm not saying that in our days we apply that recipe, but I say, well, this was a previous, I don't know, a snapshot, but something interesting to understand that we could do things in a different way.

I like it. I like it. Very, very insightful. You've had the chance to travel quite a bit. So this could be something from the US or somewhere else. But your favorite purchase, a favorite thing you bought for under $50 outside of Argentina.

Oh, I think it was a walk. A book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was in a sale and the name was something like how to Change the World. Very ambitious. Without. Or without taking the power or something like that. Like, very ambitious. The title, like, okay, this is the key of everything in my life.

Well, if you can point us in the direction or later we'll find it, we'll post it for our audience. That's great. I like it.

Maybe we have a lot of chain makers. We don't know that.

Yeah, we do. Well, obviously your English is great. You know, for me, my favorite Spanish phrase or word is as simple as ordering water. You know, I just think it's so fun to say aguas and gas or agua con gas. You know, it's. It's so much more fun than. Than water. Right? In the States. Do you have a favorite English word or favorite English phrase?

Oh, I think there is a word. Like it's pitiful. I don't know. I learned it in the. In the Wikimedia community. And I think everything connected with English and especially in America. I love the way of being so straightforward. And you haven't got this, you know, the two meaning of everything. And here I think we have that kind of things. We have a lot of psychologists working on that. This is something that I appreciate a lot. Like, okay, come on. You are saying this. And it's just that I'm not trying to understand or read or. Come on. And I love that. And the world of pitfall, I think, is connecting with how to be also very straightforward with the opportunities to change things. You know, I love the spiritual. Oh, give me feedback, and let's change that. Just do it. And I think that is so Americana, and I love that. I feel like, come on. It's so simple that. Like that.

Yeah. It reminds me. I think I. I heard somewhere from an Argentine that Argentina has more psychologists per capita than anywhere in the world. So friends, also, it's a. It's a culture of understanding meaning and talking about feelings a lot. Right?

Yes. So for me, tire, like, come on. And, you know, we have tango, and I think that this is. This music, and the tango is always so melancholic, and we are always, like, crying about the thing that we never done and, you know, the past. And. And I think it's good to have that, you know, empathy and emotions, but we have to change things. And I think, in a way, we are very tenacious because that is the. Yeah. That is the brand, like, being like, oh, so dramatic. Yes.

We are teenagers, but you could also say passion. Right. It's a country with passion, whether it's a great time or a bad time. It's, you know, it's a country that we have the expression where is. It's hard on its sleeve.

Right. Yeah.

Well, as we. As we wind down. Mellie, this has been so much fun. As we wind down. You know, the organization you mentioned a few times, girls in tech, but there's a Spanish name for it. Could you just let our audience know where to find that? If they were interested in it, where could they find that?

Yes, it's ngo. And you can also help. Help in a way. Like you could teach something. And I think chicasantechnologia.org for organization. I think the challenging is not only to teach programming, because we are all on that. This is not useful anymore because we already use artificial intelligence to program things. The thing is how to change the leadership. And so that's why people could help trying to give Some inspiration and give some way of, okay, we believe in teenagers girl, and they could do things. But also we have the chance and the opportunity to create another kind of leadership. And my dream is this connection of teenager, that girl that is from Latin America and try to have that kind of mindset in the industry, because that is why this NGO works, but also how we could give some things, not only a donation or something like that. So we are writing a society, the history, a new history, a new chapter. And so we have that chance. And that is my invitation. You could do many things, but the first thing is get involved and try to change your mindset about think Listen. We also have some podcasts and one thing that for me was shocking when I worked there. When you asked to a teenager girl, have you got a problem? Or for you, what is a problem? You have to be very brave because teenagers, girls in Latin America have a lot of things and they share their issues and they are not so simple. So sometimes they think, oh, they are a stupid generation. They don't deserve, you know, these kind of things. But no, the problem is that we haven't got enough tools or the listening thing to try to work together to create different opportunity to these people.

Very inspiring. And I think that also inspires our audience. Thank you for sharing that. Well, as we wrap up today, I wanted to thank our sponsor again, Nearshore direct. Go nearshore direct.com, a great way to find talent all across Latin America. Meli, such a pleasure. I had a really fun time. Hopefully we can have you back sometime as well.

I enjoy a lot. Thank you, Ryan, for this invitation and I hope people I don't know think differently about Argentina. Also diversity and technology. Thank you for for this opportunity again.

Absolutely. Well, our next podcast we release every week, so we'll see you again soon. Thanks everyone for listening.

Thanks for joining us at the Nearshore Cafe podcast. Tune in next week for a new episode featuring another special guest with exciting stories.