How a VP of Engineering leverages nearshore developers

Welcome everyone to another episode of the Nearshore Cafe podcast. I'm Brian Sampson, your host. We're sponsored by Plug Technologies. Great way to connect software developers from Latin America to growing U.S. companies. We've got a treat today. If you're in a hiring position with a US company, engineering leader, product leader, you're going to want to listen. We've got a real life example of how someone went through this and they evaluated and hired Nearshore team members. We're lucky to have Kevin Haggard on the show. Kevin's the VP of engineering for Zengines. Welcome to the show, Kevin.

Thank you. Excited to be here.

Zenjence. Let's start there. What is it? What does it do? Who is it for? Can you tell us more?

Yeah, sure. So we're very early stage startup with pre Series A. What Zengines focus on is data conversion. So trying to help people or companies move data from, you can think of like moving from like large mainframe systems, out of date systems to more modern systems. And so we're trying to help them with that data conversion. Also helping customer, our clients move their customers in like an onboarding situation where they're trying to bring data onto their, onto their platform from one of their, from one of their clients and helping them do that. So we're trying to automate that process as much as possible, leveraging machine learning to help with that. So it's a big problem. A lot. It's, it's. Companies spend billions of dollars on this every year, especially like large financial institutions. That's typically who we're targeting. But we're not limited to just that. That's kind of where we've been focusing at first, but we'll expand beyond that as the company gets older and more mature.

Yeah. And tell us a little more about how you came in the Zengence. How did that, that story happen?

Yeah, I, I knew one of the co founders, I was taking a break from spending some time with my kids and just wanted to take a little break from work. I hadn't done that before in my career so I was excited to do it. And then, and the co founder and I had worked at a previous company before and we just stayed in touch and yeah, like he was telling me about Zinjins all along and when I decided to take my break and as I started to start, when I started looking it's like, hey, are you interested in joining us? And it ended up being a good fit. And so met with the team, liked everyone and they liked me. So I joined Zingence a little over a year ago.

That's great. And your title is VP of Engineering. And there's semantics, I think, across the industry of, you know, you asked 10 VPs of engineering what they do, you may get 10 different answers. What does that mean for you today?

Yeah. So for me, I am responsible for everything technology within the company. So from securing our assets, infrastructure it, our devices to the delivery of the software. And I have a really good, some really good partners, like a VP of Product and design that I work with. So he is driving a lot of the requirements and designs with his group. And then my team is responsible for making sure we deliver what we say we're going to do and trying to make it work and keep it up and running as well.

Yeah. And what does your team look like today?

Yeah, so we're a mix of. We're about 15 people. We're a mix of data scientists, full stack engineers, both back end, front end, and then a couple of people on infrastructure like ENG operations. They all do a little more than that. But like your typical SRE team. Yeah, but a little more than that. Just because of the size of where we are right now. Sure. As we grow, they'll kind of more formalized and wear probably less hats, but not for a while.

Yeah, yeah. The old scale of Python on the.

Back end, Postgres, MySQL on our databases. We use Redis a lot for messaging and for caching. And then we're switching to React for our front end away from Vue, mostly because of just the availability of people that are available, obviously Typescript as well. And then next JS as well.

Yeah, okay. Okay, great. And if you don't mind a little bit about some of the other places you've been a VP of Engineering at, can you give us some sense of the scope and the scale and size?

Yeah, yeah. So it was VP of engineering at RetailMeNot. We were. This was think of like online. It was basically online coupons helping people try to save money.

Yeah.

There I think at one point had somewhere close to 150 people in the org reporting to me. Bunch of various teams. So different, definitely much different scale today at Syngence. And it was. Had its own challenges. One of the teams I led there was like an incubation team. So we were trying to help the company find the next big thing that we should pursue and had some good successes. We had a lot of failures, as you would expect. Really fun. We made a few acquisitions that I led when we integrated them into the company as well, so that was, and we, and that was a global team as well. Most of the people were in Austin, but we had people all over, especially like Eastern Europe and Phoenix were some of like hubs of hubspots for where we had people.

Okay.

After that, Security Scorecard, which is a security company that focuses on giving a public profile rating, like, help you understand your cybersecurity posture. Think of like if you're a vendor or if you're hiring some vendors and you want to know what their security posture is. It was a way to have an outside point of view of the security posture of that company and basically give you an A to F type rating and help you identify, understand some of the issues that they were facing as well. So there we had, we're probably, I can't remember the exact size we were. We're probably between 50 to 60 engineers. Argentina, let's see, Czech Republic, I think we had some other, mostly Argentina. We, I think we had people in a few other locations too. And then all across the US we were, we were fully remote company. Well, not fully remote. We were a remote company with a headquarter in New York before the pandemic. So we were, majority of us were working remotely at that time. Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. Then after that, Simspace, another cybersecurity company, and that was thinking of like cybersecurity training, helping people prepare for attacks. And a lot of it was DoD related engagements or we were delivering software to them and again, teams kind of all over, but definitely all over the US Then heavily in Peru as well.

Oh, interesting. Okay.

Okay.

So I think it's fair to say you've done, done a little bit of hiring in your career.

Yes, definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

Well, maybe we'll, we'll start with, with your US hiring experience. Can you talk about maybe some of the, you don't have to name names, but some of the better engineers that you've, you've hired. What does that look like to you? You know, what do you, what are you usually looking for and. Yeah, types of people.

Yeah. So when I, when I'm looking to hire people, it kind of depends on the level too. You know, if we're going for someone with a lot more senior seniority and they're going to be driving a lot of the work. I look for people who can talk through how they delivered the work that they've done. I'm really interested in the interpersonal skills, like how well can they mentor and help others. Because we hear this, you know, about 10x engineers. I'm not a big fan of or believe in that. But there are those people, people who can enable others to deliver a lot more. And that's usually when I'm looking at the senior people. How are they enabling others to be more productive, get things done, you know, besides just the technical skills which are really, those are extremely important. But the soft skills are just as important because if you, if they can't help the rest of the team grow and, and deliver then it just typically aren't as successful. So I look for people that have really those type of soft skills and there's been some really good. I've been fortunate to work with some really strong engineers that I hope I will get the opportunity to work with again. Some of them I've worked with a couple of times but hopefully find a third and fourth time to get to do that as well. Yeah, on the more junior side like when people are earlier in their career there, I'm looking for the hunger besides the technical skills. The technical skills are really important too. But I've hired people with English degrees who've gone into tech and computer science degrees from some of the best tech schools in the U.S. and one thing, ones that do really well just have a passion for learning and kind of just go get it attitude whereas like they're not waiting for you to tell them everything they have to do to be able to do work. They are good out there discover that you can just tell that they soak up like a sponge is soaking up as much information and trying things will break things but and take feedback really well but and talk to others about how to do things. And so again coming back to the soft skills are extremely important around like communication and being able to ask questions. But yeah for the I look for, I really try to figure out a way in during the interview process to see you know how they react and like what what those skills are going to be like. I try to stay away from coding exercises in terms of whiteboarding sessions or online coding exercises. I don't think those work well for. I mean they do for some people but not for everyone. It's better to give people a choice. Often what I like to do is say bring us an application that or some code that you've written. Walk us through it, tell us about it. You can tell a lot. You can learn a lot about what people are passionate about and how well they know the tech if they walk through their own code.

Yeah, it's really interesting what you said about your hiring process today. Did you always feel that way or is this.

Oh no. And here's a. Yeah. Kind of switch.

Yeah, switch your thought process on that.

Yeah, it really came, I think when I was at retail. Me not. It really sank in. We were hiring so many people and we had interviewing days where it was like whiteboarding sessions and just people walking through tons of code. And you could tell that for some people we knew they were probably really good engineers but they just weren't doing well on that scenario. So we started thinking like what else could we do? So we started doing take home exercises and that people could come back which are good. But you're also cutting into people. You know, they have a job and it's a hot market. Especially going back to like the, you know, like 2012 to you know, up through the pandemic. It was a hot market, was hard to hire people. So you had to be, you had to make it to where it wasn't too much of a burden for people to do the interviews as well. And, and so I had to start changing it. And then you know, I think recently with a lot of the layoffs that have happened in the tech market just being down somewhat, people have, A lot of companies have started putting those barriers back in place. I'm not a huge fan of that. I actually think it's still important to how can you make the can of the experience as good as possible? Because if it's good for them, it's actually probably good for you as a hiring manager. So I've really tried to change away from giving questions around like theoretical stuff that they could be doing here. But like, and during the interviews we'll talk about what we do and then we'll ask them when they, when we get to the coding part to or like going through their tech, try to give them something if they can figure out a way to relate the work that they've done to what we're trying to do. And in Zinchence that's kind of hard. It's not a lot of people have done data conversions but in other aspects people have and like other industries or other companies have done something similar and they can show examples of that. So. But yeah, I think that shift really happened for me a few years ago of trying to make it easier and make it a better candidate experience for doing the interview. Even in this market I still think it's, that's important to do.

Yeah. Especially for, for the really great talent, you know, the experience matters and you, you're always looking for any differentiator. You can have competitive advantage yeah. How do you think about the steps in the process? About how many times.

Do you, your.

Team need to touch that engineer to feel like you've got all the information that you need?

Yeah, typically I'd say about four people. Four to five is the max and, but it's, every interview is different in terms of what we're focusing on. We try to make sure we're not covering the same topics. And then after that, I like to ask them if they've learned anything in the interview or people heard about people that they want to also meet. But you typically know within four to five. I will always do the first screen and to get a feel of like, do we progress on or not? And then, and if we do, then I'll introduce them to the group and then they'll meet. They'll go and meet everyone else.

Yeah. When you're, when you're spending your time the way you want to as a VP of engineering, how much of that time is spent on recruiting?

Oh, yeah, I would say the majority of it when I'm able. Especially when we're hiring a lot. I mean, it's engines. We're not hiring a lot right now, so I'm not spending a ton of time there. But again, when we're in a, when you're in a growth mode, I'd say the majority of it is spent there. And that's where as a DP of engineering, you've got to have really good leaders that can help support running the day to day. And I still have to be there for the critical delivery or critical issues that are happening. But I, I think the majority of it has to be recruiting also important to that. It's not just when I think about recruiting, it's not just recruiting for the people coming in. It's also like, what am I doing to recruit the people that are here to keep them at the company? Because the cost of turning them, leaving is expensive and having to, to replace. So, yeah, I would, you know, I would say probably somewhere 60 to 70% of my time would be spent there.

Yeah, great point. When, when was the, you know, you had mentioned earlier a few different countries that you've worked with. What was your first experience of working with engineers outside the us? Can you talk more about that?

Yeah, that was probably when I was at deloitte I early 2000s. We had some team members in India and yeah, that was probably the first time and. But there was more interfacing of like I was just handing off work. I wasn't really. I wasn't in manager role, so I wasn't, you know, it was really just kind of helping them get their work done, checking work, things like that and then. But I'd say probably manager from like where I really felt like I got close to the team and really got to know them. So I was at Weight Watchers very early in my career, early 2000s. We were the dot com part of Weight Watchers and it was like a startup within the bigger company. Well, we actually were a separate company at the time, but we, we were doing the digital experience and I was working with the team in Jordan. It was phenomenal experience. I was surprised because I never heard anyone outsourcing to Jordan. Yeah. And. But it was, it was at that time, I mean, so many companies are trying to outsource. It was actually really a great spot for us because there weren't very many other players in the market. So we weren't facing competition of like we were like you would in India at the time, where company, where so many companies were outsourcing at the time, they would scoop up thousands of people. And so for us to retain people was almost impossible. But by going to Jordan, we weren't facing that same competition. We were getting phenomenal talent too.

Yeah.

So it was, that was really a fun and interesting experience. And plus just getting to spend time in the country was really fascinating. I learned a ton just to, you know, about Jordan and getting to see Petra. Got to go there two or three times with the team. It was a really, really great experience. So I'd say, you know, I think since then I got a little, you know, I think if I can travel to the countries that, where people I'm working with, that gets me even more excited.

Yeah, that's awesome. And then what, what led you over to Eastern Europe?

Yeah. So we were, I think was it. I think it was retail me. Not when the first time we were doing work there in the Ukraine and just we needed people that were really good at like advanced logic or like algorithms. And it's interesting in Eastern Europe, the map there, the way they teach math and computer science is just very, just really strong. And people coming out of there like really good backend engineers. And yeah, we had really great success with the team there. And really good people could, you know, good English skills as well. So we didn't have really a lot of communication barriers. Really the time zone was the biggest challenge that we had. But that wasn't too bad. We had a few hours of overlap every day, so that wasn't really much of a problem. But that was a. Also really great experience to be able to spend some time there. And then I've gone back to Eastern Europe like the Czech Republic with, with security school card. That was really good talent as well both on front end and back end which was. I hadn't done front end in Eastern Europe before but found some really good people there doing the work. Again time zones those were a challenge but you know, still quite a bit of overlap before. Too big of an issue. Yeah.

When you think about the intentionality, you know, of India, Jordan, Ukraine, Czech. Was it originally a follow the sun operation or you were just looking for like the best engineers you could find or cost, you know. What were some of the original intentions for those?

Yeah, we were, we weren't really looking at follow the. Follow the sign. We were really kind of looking just where we may. Somebody had had experience working in that market before or in that area looking for a really good talent pool and, and just and where people were available and, and also kind of the people that we're, that we're going to be working with and from a leadership perspective and for managing the day to day companies or outsourcing companies that had good leadership in place to help support and grow the people there as well. You know and I think that's kind of for my various stages of companies like as you're more mature like 200 to 3, 200 plus company, you have a lot more processes in place. You probably have your HR department that can, you can afford to have these other. The, your partners manage a lot of the day to day for you because you're focused on your, your full time staff. But early stages, like me, I like to be much more hands on with the, the team that I'm working with almost where I'm acting like the, the hiring manager for them because like treating them like that I'm doing one on ones with them and getting to know them because they're so we're so small they're a critical part to our delivery. Like we can't have a misstep. But at the larger companies there's a, you know, you have more number or more people. So you know you need local leaders who can do the touch points with them and get to know them better and support them. So I think that's you know I look at it differently now the size based on the size of company I am but then you know, another company in the future I, you know, or Zentions grows. I would look at it differently depending on what stage of the company we are, yeah.

Do you tend to work in a agile sprint, stand up type of style?

We follow more of a Kanban approach but we'll put dates and objectives out of like what we were hoping to hit and that's kind of help, help us around like prioritizing. If we're trying to go by this date what do we need to cut out? What do we really need to focus on? Just kind of help, just clarity of what we're trying to deliver. But it is definitely agile. Maybe a little chaos at some times just as you know early stage you're having to react to things so that's part of it.

Sure, yeah. And what led you to Latin America? Can you remember the first time you hired out there?

Yeah. So again back at RetailMeNot we were looking at, we wanted to find someone that was in similar time zones and that we could work with. We were, we just wanted more overlap you know just during the day like when you're instant messaging back and forth like on Slack you want to be able to just be able to chat or say hey let's get together and chat about something not have to wait till the next day. So we, we started, we looked in Argentina we found a good partner there, started working with them but we did in a limited capacity. It wasn't until we probably had 10 people that were working with us at one point on a specific area that only lasted for a couple years not because of their capability, just because of the way the business is growing. We needed a trim staff so we cut there first and then security scorecard. We had a good portion of the team in Argentina because of one of the early engineers on the team was from there and then was able to hire a lot through his network and, and grow that. So I think we had 20 something people there at one point. Yeah really good, really good team members. So yeah I think the first time was. Yeah I think it was three. Tell me not when it went into our Shane and that took a while too because we looked in, let's see I think we were looking in Honduras, some of the other Latin American countries. We were having a lot of.

We.

Just had a lot of missteps we couldn't find like we were really, we were really struggling to find good technical skills, good communication skills but I mean I would say the technical skills just weren't where we were hoping to find and it's you know part of that's. We were not to say that those skills don't exist there. We just weren't Able to find the partners that people there that would need it. But we were able to find it in Argentina at the time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Argentina is a little more mature. They export a lot of software services. A lot of, you know, a lot of. A lot of people do that. And I'm excited to ask you about the travel part because you've traveled a lot of these places. Tell us about your first time visiting Argentina and your thoughts.

Yeah. Loved it. Yeah, I. I haven't been back a long time. I want to. I. I want to take my wife and my kids. I've heard. Heard me talk about a lot. I've had some of them come to visit here. My family's met them, so they're anxious to go. Food and the people are great. It's especially the food, the wine and the steaks. I could. I would be a very happy person. I am a very happy person when I'm meeting there and so definitely hope to get back. And it's a. It's a beautiful country too. So Buenos Aires is very. Has a very European feel to it in terms of, like, if you're used to, like, you've been to Europe and you've traveled to European cities, the architecture and stuff is very similar to that. So it's, you know, it's. It's beautiful. I really like it.

Yeah.

There's some beautiful parts to travel outside of the country or outside of the city as well. So I hope to go back and do more there. I would love to explore Patagonia and Mendoza more. So eat and drink my way through Argosino would be great.

Yeah. Well, if you ever make it to Mendoza or Patagonia, those are some of my favorites. Happy to share some travel tips with you.

Yeah.

You've really hit a lot on communication, plus technical skills. So I guess what Argentina has is the overlap over some of the other countries. But can you talk a little more specifically about any patterns or things you've seen from a. Especially from a communication standpoint when you're working with Argentina?

Yeah, I think. Well, I think it varies. You'll find some people that are very shy or very. English is a second language, and so you've got to find some people that kind of more that feel comfortable communicating. It also depends on the size of the team. So when there. When we had a larger team, we didn't need everyone to have. Be really strong in English because we could. We could rely on some of the other people to do. To be more effective in that. But the leaders had to have really Good communication skills, had to be able to travel and spend time with us. Same for point to there. And so I think the patterns are, you know, I think not everyone is comfortable or as skilled as in speaking. And so I think good at written communication, you got to be a little slower too and like how you're communicating things. So don't be, you know, I think after living in New York for 13 years, I can be very, at different times. I can be very rapid fire in how I'm talking then. I'm from Texas really, so I can be very laid back as well, but tend to with business. I can just rapid fire and I got to make sure I don't do that because be very articulate in what, what I'm saying and give them time to think about what we're doing and not, you know, just not expect an immediate response or just a constant dialogue back and forth. There needs to be pauses in there. That's why written communications really good and if you see that from them, I feel really confident that they're going to be a great hire if you know, with the other skills that are there too. But yeah, you know, I think I don't find like, I will say I don't know if in Argentina that the skill set I've seen or the pattern's been different there than I have seen in other countries. It's more, I think just that second language part. It's just like where, where are they at that level? And my Spanish is terrible so I have to rely on them to, to do the heavy lifting for that unfortunately.

Yeah. Is there anything else that, you know, sometimes people talk about the passion, you know, of, of the, of the country there and the, the people or in my experience I've seen a lot more pushback sometimes. Like, like if they, if they don't agree with the, the technical decisions or the trade offs, you might, you might get that and sometimes you want that, sometimes you don't.

Yeah.

You know, can you, can you talk more about that?

Yeah, definitely. It's a really good point. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, definitely in some, some places you'll get the. I'm just, you tell me what you want me to do, I'll go do it. But there are the others that really kind of want to have a discussion about the way it's being implemented. I would say in my experience Eastern Europe, Argentina were really good about pushing back or asking questions and, and challenging and I would say Ireland as well and the, and then in other countries like India And Jordan, I would say those tend to, I mean just this is. I hate being so. Not to stereotype but it, you know, I'd say it's not fair to everyone because not everybody's like that. Of course.

Yeah.

But the, you know there a lot of it's like waiting to or not waiting but will be you tell them what you want to go do and they'll do it and they'll usually do it very well but they're not necessarily questioning it. And I think that, you know, depends on what people are looking for best fit for them. And I personally like the challenge. I like people pushing back and asking, you know, not always agreeing with the way to do it. Just my style for as a manager. But another times you just kind of need people to follow do what I tell you to do, don't question it, just get it done type thing. But you can find that anywhere. Both personality types exist.

Yeah. And I'm sure we'll have quite a few software engineering leaders listening to the show and if you have any advice for them on how stage of your company might matter in, you know, this is exactly what I want. Just do it versus you know, I don't know, maybe earlier stage you might want some more collaboration and pushback. Do you have, do you have an opinion on that?

Yeah, I mean I, my opinion is always get the people who go get people who are going to challenge. Even if we try to get them to challenge or ask questions, feel comfortable with that. That's just my opinion. At all stages of a company I definitely think it's earlier. It's important at the earlier stages. Um, you're trying to. Well I, people could see that different ways. Like I see it that way because you're, you're young in what you're doing. You want to make sure you're doing it right. You want to hear various opinions. I also, at the earlier stages I like to go for more senior people which is not always beneficial to the company because of cost. But I think the, it's, I think it's a fallacy that just because you're hiring cheaper labor that you're going or like younger people that are less experienced that you're saving the company money. You're actually could be spending more because of delivery time, not understanding trade offs that are being made. So I actually like to emphasize fewer hires more senior people in the earlier stages because I think it improves our chances of getting it right. Excuse me. So in the later stages I think then you're looking for that more Mix of skill sets. You need your more senior people, but you also need the mix of people who are learning and being mentored and growing in their career because of the evolution of a longer, more stable company. You're going to have people there for multiple years. You need to create that kind of pyramid or that leveling.

Sure.

And give the people that are more senior chances to mentor others. So I, I try to think about staffing or like, where I go for that, but you do have to. And then weigh in the cost factor to it. So certain areas in Latin America are more affordable like or in South America than others. And same with, like Eastern Europe. There was at one point we were. Your Eastern European salaries weren't too different from salaries in the US So it wasn't about there. You know, it was about just getting great people wherever you happen to be. It wasn't. We were outsourcing from a cost perspective. It was just we were trying to find the best staff we could. And then if you're looking. But if you're having to be cost conscious, you have to look at what are your. What those countries, what the, what the average salary is for those. And so. And you can get senior people in those other countries. But the pool may not be as big as some of the others. Like in Argentina, there's a big pool. It's a much larger population than if you were trying to go to, you know, a smaller. Just a smaller country like a Honduras or something like that. Yeah.

Yeah. It makes me think about your earlier point about maybe fishing where others aren't. Like when you were in Jordan, you had less competition. There's great people everywhere.

You know, are you, Are you just.

Are you fishing in San Francisco with everybody else or.

Yeah.

Did you find some arbitrage? Yeah, Yeah.

I think it's harder to do that now because of the. Well, at least it was recently because of the pandemic. And then everybody working remotely with a lot of companies forcing or pushing to go back into the office. That makes it easier for companies like us that are fully remote to get back to that and find talent in those areas that others wouldn't maybe go pursue.

Yeah. And then Peru has come up.

Yeah.

We don't want to make this only about Argentina.

Yeah.

How did you, how did you stumble into Peru? You know, Mexico and Argentina seem to be on the. In Colombia seem to be on the. The more commonly used nearshoring countries. Peru is a little less common. So we'd love to hear the story around that.

Yeah. The security scorecard when I was working there. There was already a relationship established there and it was specifically because of the type of tech we were doing and the company we were working with was had a lot of experience in functional programming a specific language that we were looking for really good staff. But what and we were finding just as we were expanding our tech stack getting out of that there were a lot of other people within Peru that were meeting some of the needs that we had so we got excited about that and and kept recruiting and expanding.

And.

I've been to Peru on vacation for myself not unfortunately with business and it's also phenomenal country to visit and such a diverse geography. It's really cool to get to visit there coming back to where I like to go travel if I can elsewhere but anyway Peru didn't work out that way for me. I just was fortunate enough to travel there earlier but I would love to get a chance to go back but good English skills, technical skills were I just didn't know what to expect and been very impressed with the people that we've had there and both now that we're working we work with you guys on AS engines we are you know we've. We've hired a couple people there and they've been doing a fantastic job and so we just keep finding them really good talent good diverse talent too around different tech stacks and been pretty. Yeah I think it's. It's not. It wasn't a place that was on my radar a few years ago but like now when I think about it or like when I think about where I want to if I want to build a developer hub in a specific area especially like if we're going to try to bring people together occasionally we do you know remote we want to get together periodically as we expand more in our hiring we'll hire in the US but we'll also hire more in Peru and but at some point we'll probably all meet up in Lima and just some more essential for them to be able to get to meet but yeah talent there has been really great I think this is true with any country the largest thing I think one of the hardest considerations is figuring out hardware situation so unfortunately our application requires pretty hefty machines like a lot of RAM and so it's not always easy to get the get the latest and greatest into the countries and so you have to work with them to plan for that and just take a little longer lead times and think about the cost of that too. So that's probably been the biggest challenge for that Actually that is the biggest challenge outside of that like technical skills, communication at least with the people I've worked with have, have been there really been really good on par with what I've seen in other countries as well.

Have you seen the challenge and challenging trade offs challenging that, that you, that you might see in other places too?

You know I think, I think the. I'm still learning, I think I'm still learning a lot about Peru. I think there were you know, kind of come back to mixed personality or like the types of personality types. I've seen both there like people who are just do what you want, they'll get it done. Then there's the other of hey I'll question and challenge you. And I think that kind of has with seniority and comfort level and so that part's been good. I think what has been really beneficial to us is the cost. The labor market there. The cost of labor is much better for us and or than for like some of the other countries like in Argentina argue is just a lot more expensive and I think the cost of living there is much higher than it is in especially with inflation than it is in Peru. So that is, you know I haven't, I don't think I've really run into challenges from staffing or like the type skill sets and stuff like that. It's all been on par with what I've experienced in other places and, and financially good as well.

That's great to hear. Yeah. We've, we've had a few people from Peru on the pod, including startup founders in Peru that have raised VC money from the US and they're just able to compete like, like there's a lot less competition because the domestic Peruvian company is just can't, can't touch it. So I'm sure as you're, as you're fishing again, you know I think a common theme of the show is, is arbitrage and you know finding untapped markets whether it's Jordan or Lima and it's, it's great to hear that.

Yeah. You know and think about like people improve raising money from VCs in the U.S. i think that you know that reminds me, I think depending on the kind of company you are, what kind of what are you looking for in the people are people comfortable with risk and taking doing a startup And I haven't seen, I haven't seen anyone in Peru concerned about that. And, and so there's like usually had long relationships and very little turnover with the people that I've worked with and obviously his engines were still very early on, so wouldn't expect that. But previous company, very consistent and I think that was really nice. So like getting, you could build a team there and not worry about it changing on you too, too frequently, which is very helpful because you invest a lot of time in getting, building up the knowledge. So I think, you know, in these countries, where do people feel comfortable or the type of risk are they willing to take is important too. I think some places that in some countries I've worked, people were very typical, like wanted to be at the large companies who they worked for is a large part of their identity and that, you know, it's brand names mattered. But in some, in some countries that doesn't matter as much. Like they don't. It doesn't. It's not as much about their identity. It doesn't. And it's not, not as impressive about the name of the company they're working for. It's about, they care more about what are they getting to do and what skills are they developing and learning, getting to work on.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I want to be, be respectful of your time. You've already been so generous, Kevin. Ruben, what do we miss? Is there anything that we should be asking?

Yeah, there was one thing.

You know, Kevin, every day when we're talking to our clients prospects and over the last year and a half we've heard this over and over again. The reason to go near shore has been time zone alignment. I mean that's been the number one overwhelming reason. Of course there's other things caused, cultural affinity, things like that. I'm just wondering from your perspective, how does that affect your projects, the efficiency, how you can get things done. If you can just speak a little bit to that, that would be.

Yeah, the time zone part is extremely critical. Just for. I believe in asynchronous communication and not having to everybody be on the same hours, but the fact that the majority of your day is spent same time. It's easy to get together, have impromptu meetings just to like get together and talk. Especially like developers like wanting to be able to jump on a call, just do a huddle on slack for, you know, 10 minutes. And so like do any point in the day, like in the afternoon. It's extremely important. Especially when I think about our stage of company. We are, we don't, we have to be very careful that we are hitting the milestones that we're trying to accomplish so that it sets up the business to be successful. So that to me was extremely important. So when I When we we started discussing doing some outsourcing as engines I could have easily have gone to some really good partners that have and Eastern Europe and gotten very good talent. It would have been more expensive but that what I was less concerned about that than I was the overlap the time you know to quickly have a discussion not having to wait until the next day to have it or. And so I just. I think having on that same time zone or very similar time zones is extremely just too extremely important at that earlier stage. And I think kind of depends on the. It could be us as a company but it could be any other company. The stage of the product that they're working on, the things that are working. It's very early on having lots of discussions and being able to communicate is so important. When it gets more mature you can rely on little more formal channels to have a communication about stuff plan things a little more ahead. So. But yeah that's was the. That time zone was the number one factor for for Zinjians and for me when we were looking at a partner for outsourcing.

That's great. That's great. And of course what you said about a great testament to the country of Peru that probably a lot of the people listening today aren't going to be thinking about in terms of finding talent. Where you have found some excellent talent and that exists in other countries around Latin America as well.

Man, they should go to Colombia, Peru, Columbia. Stay out of Peru.

Stay out of Peru. Kevin, is there anything else like any. Any last words of advice you might give other VPs of engineering that have never near shored before advice so they have some success as they begin their journey down this path?

Yeah yeah. I think being really good at written communication clear with you know what to expect how you're going to work with them is really important. Spending time with them and treating them like you. Almost like you do an employee of like coach and mentor. Spend time getting to know them building just building those personal connections that you would with any full time employee is extremely important to do. I think the more you treat them that way instead of a hired gun or like just a mercenary, the better off you'll be because they'll be really invested in what they're trying to do. And I have found some. You know when people understand what they're trying to accomplish and are part of that overall goal and not treated as just that mercenary type delivery is phenomenal and I can just because they're part of and they really contribute contribute business ideas to what you're doing. So I would say treat them as much as you can legally as an employee and, and, and include them in everything that you can as a part of the company. And if you can send swag, since swag, you know, just a little. Those little things matter.

That's great advice. I think I've seen this in my own career of sometimes there can be an us versus them. Oh yeah, us and us. It, it makes all the difference.

Yeah. If you can afford it, bring them to visit and get your team together or go visit. It's that I have found I've been in those finger pointing situations that us versus them almost all the time. That gets removed as soon as they start spending time together. Spend a little bit of time. Just get to know each other on a more personal level. Not just a person over a camera.

Yeah. Great advice. Well, Kevin, this has been absolutely fantastic. We went a little over. Hope you don't mind, but this has just been a world of gems. So appreciate, appreciate that.

Yeah, thanks. Enjoyed it.

Good. Well, we'll, we'll thank our sponsor, Pluck Technologies once more. That's Plugg Tech. Great way to find software developers from Latin America for growing US Companies. Thanks again for listening to the Nearshore Cafe podcast.

See you next time.