Building a 7-figure fashion eCommerce brand in the Netflix hours with Cents of Style CEO Courtney Brown

I didn't have a business plan. I didn't have anything. All I did was just started because I wanted to do something. We kept that kind of in-home party model for the first 5 years, actually. And in late '11, early '12, I realized that I had never done more than $150,000 a year in revenue. I'd never taken a paycheck and I was $50,000 in debt., and I felt like a failure. I felt like what I had created was a joke and it wasn't working for me. And I knew I either had to walk away or pivot.

Welcome to Creative Counsel with Brittany Rettell. I'm your host, Brittany, an attorney for creatives who believes in solid contracts and cute office supplies and who wants to empower you to be a more confident business owner. Whether you're a creative influencer, maker, artist, shop owner, or content creator, you are not just a blank. You are a real bona fide business owner. So let's help you own your business and get you legally legit with Brit. Thanks for joining me. Our guest today is Courtney Brown. She is the CEO and founder of Sense of Style and Be Fulfilled, two multimillion-dollar Utah-based e-commerce companies. Sense of Style aims to bring the latest in clothing and accessories in an affordable way, and Be Fulfilled aims to help influencers and creators develop, source, ship, and service their own physical product lines. Courtney is also a wife, mother of 3, and a mentor and business coach specializing in helping female entrepreneurs create and cast their vision. In this episode of Creative Counsel, Courtney shares her 15-year journey in building her companies from the ground up, including some giant pivots, as well as bringing her husband in full-time. She also geeks out with me about how we've had a front row seat to the changing shape of e-commerce, especially with influencer and affiliate marketing. Courtney shares how to create business boundaries, especially when working with friends, to handle how to handle curveballs that come with physical product, how to hire and manage team members, and how to generally navigate the constant problem solving that is part of the entrepreneurial journey. I can't wait for you to hear all the wisdom and nuggets from our guest Courtney Brown.

Hello everybody and welcome back, and I am just so delighted for our guest today. So you heard a little about her in the bio, but Courtney Brown, welcome to—

Brit, thanks for having me.

Gosh, so excited for this and for you taking time out of your busy schedule. We'd love to start with your kind of brief, your origin story. We all love a good Marvel movie origin story because you've been successful and now are the CEO of multiple businesses and would just love to hear your business journey of how you got started. And then we'll dig into what we can learn from your wealth of experience.

Okay. Next week, March 1st is 15 years of Sense of Style. Style, my, one of my companies. So 15 years in business, that's my incorporation date, March 1st, 2007. I did incorporate, Brit, right from the beginning.

You did it!

That's your business birthday. That's the business birthday. Sense of Style is online fashion brand. I've been in the e-commerce space for a long time. And second company is Be Fulfilled. That's an operations platform where we help other women-run brands and influencers create physical products, source, develop, and then we ship and do the customer care. We basically act as the backend operations team. So those are the two companies I'm CEO and founder of. My origin story, again, you got to go back a ways, but like many female entrepreneurs, I was a young mom in search of creative outlet, and fashion had always been something I loved in my life. I was that trusted friend that people— that friends and family came to that said, how are you doing this and how are you doing it affordably? And I was looking for a creative outlet. This is in '07. This is right as family blogs were taking off, right at the very beginning, pre-'08 crash. And I really was just looking for something for me. So I started doing in-home parties, which were very popular in those early and mid-2000s, and I just started selling selling accessories at in-home parties that, between you and I, in the very beginning I was finding on clearance racks and reselling them.

Just retail arbitrage at its best.

I didn't have a business plan. I didn't have anything. All I did was just started because I wanted to do something. We kept that kind of in-home party model for the first 5 years, actually. And in late '11, early '12, I realized that I had never done more than $150,000 a year in revenue. I'd never taken a paycheck and I was $50,000 in debt. And I felt like a failure. I felt like what I had created was a joke and it wasn't working for me. And I knew I either had to walk away or pivot and At the time, my dear friend was running the affiliate marketing program for one of the country's biggest coupon blogs. So blogging started as a family venture thing, and then out of the '08 crash, a bunch of moms learned how to monetize blogging from coupon sites, and that was the beginning of this new media. That we are all experiencing, this influencer model of marketing that has taken the world by storm. That all came out of '08. It came out of mom saying, I got to help my family and I got to hustle something. Yeah, I got to do something. And they learned to monetize because sites like coupons.com says, I'll give you $0.03 for everybody that downloads or prints off this Procter Gamble coupon. And I happen to have grown up with in Boise, Idaho, two of the still the country's largest coupon bloggers, Heather Wheeler of Crazy Coupon Lady and Colin Morgan of Hip2Save. We grew up together in the east side of Boise. So my dear friend Nicole Smith— I hope I can drop her name— was running their affiliate marketing program at the Crazy Coupon Lady at the time, and I said, Nicole, I can't keep doing this way. And she said, I think you should look into affiliate marketing and going 100% online. And from that piece of advice from a dear friend, I pivoted. It took my revenue to zero. We had about 40 to 50 stylists is what we call them in and around the Wasatch Front, Idaho and Arizona. Let them all go and started again 100% from that space with a focus on affiliate and influencer marketing. Now the word influencer hadn't been coined at this time, right?

We were bloggers.

Yeah. Yeah. We were bloggers. We were affiliates. Those were the words. Now nobody really even uses the word blogger unless it's derogatory and the words mommy blogger these days. But that was the origins of that. And I actually really have had a front row seat to this evolution over the last decade. Right. From that place, Sense of Style still has an affiliate influencer marketing model. For those who don't know what affiliate marketing is, it is when an influencer, a blogger affiliate talks about a product. And they make a sale, they actually get a transaction. The brand behind it then pays them a commission or a cut of said deal. And I love affiliate marketing because it's a win-win proposition, right? You talk about a product, somebody buys it, you get a cut of that sale. And I think it's a wonderful, beautiful way to mutually grow businesses, solve problems, be very transparent about it, and a very fair exchange of value. Exactly. And it's upfront. I know Brit is a big—

talks about this a lot. Love my disclosure. You don't have to be coy about it.

People are fine with it. People are fine. It's happening every day, everyone. And as it should, it's a value provided. If your favorite influencer on Instagram is telling you about a product that they love, you purchase it and they get money for it, and then the brand gets money for it and you get value out of the product. Out of your Stanley Cup, right? Stanley.

Thank you. I think that this is Ashley Rose Reeves, I think, has got this one.

Yeah. Oh, I think it's Tara Thorsen for me. Oh, anyways, that absolutely is a fair transaction. So that is how I built my business. We focused there. We started showing up where bloggers and affiliates were and built relationships. And we still do that to this day. Scent of Style grew year over year, including last to date. 2018, we spun off our sister company, Be Fulfilled. So as we watched the market evolve, we realized— and seeing this across every single industry, and I like to call it the democratization of commerce— going from the big box, from the Sears, Roebucks, and the JCPenney, the Macy's, to the digitally native brand.

Each and every influencer now having their own brand and also want their own product line, being like their own, transitioning from maybe what was a media agency, a small or like digital magazine, which is how most of 'em start. I'm gonna have some content, some editorial, some advertisements. That's what magazines were of what if I can sell someone else's blush and toner and Stanley Cup or whatever, maybe I should be selling my own or pajamas.

Yeah, absolutely. We had the early pioneers in this. Obviously there's even earlier pioneers like Martha Stewart you can point to, but like in this space, those early creative pioneers are like the Oh Joys for Target. Do you remember how big of a deal that was?

I wanted that confetti suitcase so bad.

I can't even— this is where Britt and I get to geek out of literally just our time in this industry, right? And then Joanna Gaines taking it to a new level. We saw this trend occurring, and because we had been in this world for so long, we saw an opportunity. Sense of Style has always been about affordability and fashion, and one way we've had to be able to deliver on our low prices is get really good at operations, get really good at how to ship, how to do it efficiently, how to do it at the best price, how to do customer care really well. We didn't have the margin to be sloppy in that regard. And so we saw that we were really good at it and that we could be uniquely situated to help a lot of women create and productize physical products. Let's be clear, And so we spun off City Fulfilled, which is an operations platform where we work with women-run brands and influencers to help them create lifestyle-branded physical product. We help them on the technical side of their website, the listings, the privacy policy, making sure they're legit in a shop because we're experts in e-commerce. And then we help them fulfill on that product. I have over 50 employees, the majority, over 90% of which are women, a lot of moms. And my warehouse is run by moms during school hours where they come in and get that product out the door to other women. And then we also do the customer care. We don't do the sales and marketing, we don't do the legal, and we don't do the accounting, but we do that operations side that is often underestimated in how challenging it is.

Especially as people are maybe new to product or are new of going, have done the product and have done the whole basement fulfillment thing and bringing in their husband and their sister and their friends from their neighborhood. But when you make that next leap, when you presell and you now have $5,000 or $10,000, you have a problem.

It's a good problem, but you have a problem. And I've done all those things. I have been the girl that has had to employ the entire neighborhood to get a viral deal out the door. I've been the girl that it has taken a month to fulfill on the promises made. And what we offer at Befulfilled is let us help you get past those pitfalls. And something I'm very passionate about, our why at Befulfilled is to help you create space. This idea that if you are focusing on shipping or focusing on talking to someone on Alibaba, who you don't know if they're legit or the QC is gonna be right, you are not in your genius space. You do not have space to create the type of content sales and marketing that actually you're brilliant at. So we allow, we take those things off your plate so there's more room, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. Because that is our genius.

What got you from here can't get you to there.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that, that's a little bit of my business journey starting out. I like to call it the accidental entrepreneur as most women begin, right? Building a business in the crumbs of time, in the Netflix hours. The number of years I spent working 9 to midnight and then becoming truly a CEO of two multimillion-dollar companies.

Of the Netflix hours, because I'm like, yep, I can immediately— I'm there folding laundry, but also taking care of stuff. But I also think, to your credit, building those kinds of companies, there is no accident in that growth and that strategy and that intentionality that you have of how do we find out what we're good at and zero in on that, be thoughtful and not try to be good at all the things and be all the things to everyone. Especially I think what, that's what's so great about Be Fulfilled is you looked at your company and lots of people sell clothing, lots of people do a good job of selling clothing, but what are we really good at here?

And what's something that we can use that genius to serve other people and grow? Yeah, absolutely. And when I say accidental, from the outset, I guess it very quickly turned from that, but I know this better than anybody and it— and we get to do a lot of mindset work around this, but that most of the women that are entrepreneurs are like, well, like I had an idea and I started and I just went forward and it wasn't the plan to turn it into something on the Inc. 5000, but that's what happened. Right. Of course it becomes intentional, but it's not like we all went to business school and had a business plan that we walked out with and intentionally said, I'm creating this. Sure, there are some of those stories, That's not my story.

But I love that shift in that focus of what you found along the way in terms of not saying yourself, because I don't have the business training or I didn't come from a corporate background, I just, I don't know what I'm doing here. It was, I'm sure we all do cuz we all feel that as business owners. I'm not sure of the next step, but I'm gonna figure it out.

I don't know what to do yet. Absolutely. And that's everyone. I want to be clear, that is literally Everyone. And if they're— you figure it out as you go and you have to be willing. One of the biggest parts of my story is being willing to pivot, being willing if the thing you were doing isn't working to ask yourself why, look into it and strategize on what would be a better move.

Right. I love that so much. So I'd love to turn to talk about the operation side of what you found in terms of physical product. I especially think this is a really timely topic because it's been quite a year and a half too in the physical product world, and it's been super challenging. So I'd love to hear what can people do who are getting in that space or growing into that space, especially knowing there are some things you can do and control, and there's also a whole lot in that column that you can't.

Ooh, are we experiencing a time of never before or what?

Unprecedented times, right? That's so cliché now. Like when, when unprecedented times—

no, don't, haven't seen that movie, but it is. In the physical product world, it is real and we are all experiencing it. I think they just reported that inflation in January alone went up 7%, and supply chain is— that is a real issue and scenario in today's world. I love physical products. Let me be clear, I love it. I love fabric. I love creating something from nothing that tells a story and speaks to our souls and just makes us feel more alive when we wear it or have it, or that makes our lives easier. I love all of those things. I'm very passionate about it. And so the national news has been reporting on this, but let's— supply chain, based on many factors, but the beginning of which being COVID, right, and the pandemic, has really affected the supply of goods all over, and not just out of China, although that has been a thing. All over the world, it is a challenge. It is. We're seeing an increase in the costs of the raw materials, 20 to 30% increase in raw materials that we've never experienced or haven't experienced in a very long time. Then you add the logistics of international cargo to that.

We all seen the containers sitting outside in the ports. Are they ever going to come?

We don't know. We had containers sitting for 6 weeks this winter. I've heard horror stories of Michaels, Crafts getting all of their Christmas stuff and it is now 75 to 80% off sitting in their stores in February. That is the reality. It's unprecedented for sure. My husband has been in sourcing his entire career going on. Between the two of us, I think we've got, I don't know, over 30, probably 35 years in this realm, and he's never, ever experienced anything like this. It is challenging. But so is life and so is business. And there will always be challenges. If it's not this, it's going to be something else. And I think that my advice would be to seek out experts, learn and hear and learn what's going on. This is not unique to you, right? This is happening to the biggest companies in the world. Anybody tried to go look at cars lately?

Yeah.

They're not there. Good luck. So this is a worldwide experience, but I also I would say if you're passionate about something, don't let that deter you. There will always be something standing in the way. There will always be a challenge. That's where the opportunity lies. You can figure out how to solve the problem that others say is impossible. That's the largest opportunity. If you can figure, figure out how to 3D print it or something like, yeah. Right. And I guess that is one of the things I would say is like, there's you get to— you can diversify, right? Diversify your channels. And that's something we've been doing. We are not only producing in LA, but Vietnam, Pakistan, China, Mexico. Diversify your channels. And then I guess also I would say seek out experts and see what they're saying, and then don't let it stop you.

Yeah, because there's always challenges. The goal in business is not to be rid of problems and challenges, it's to get newer and more interesting ones all the time.

Exactly. And I think that is something that unless you have time in the game, that is always like a surprise to new entrepreneurs. There will always be problems. There will always be challenges.

That's the reality of—

that's the game. And that's the game. And that's why not everyone does it. If it were easy, everyone would do it. But your willingness to find solutions to the problems and move beyond them, to shift, to change, and to keep going is, I believe, the number one predictor of success.

Yeah, the pivot and the persistence.

Yep.

Oh, those are such good insights, and I just appreciate coming from your experience because you can say that as someone who's been there— garage fulfillment, hauling tubs and racks of stuff to clothing inhouses— and knowing like that's a stage, and then there's another stage, and then it's scary to put your eggs in a basket of like, we put in, we sent our order in, we gave them a bunch of money, hope, hope this stuff turns out.

Like, terrifying. It's terrifying. It's also— okay, this is, you're gonna get soapbox Courtney for a moment. I love soapbox Courtney, we're here for it. Thank you, thank you. I also appreciate soapbox Brit. So we believe in this instant gratification world that physical product should be perfect. But you didn't start out— iPhone did not begin with the iPhone 13 that we are at now. Started with the iPhone 1, and none of us even bought it. None of us even bought it until it was the 3, and the 3 didn't have apps, and it didn't even have a camera. How quickly we forget. How quickly we forget. There has to be a level of pragmatism in all business and physical product, knowing that it's an iterative process and you get better as you go. But if you want to get to 100% perfect on your first go at a physical product, you will be working on that for a decade and still probably won't release it or ship it. And things come in wrong. There are quality problems. It happens. There is a level of that in everything, and to expect 100% perfection all of the time is an unrealistic goal, right? It's setting yourself up, yeah, for failure. You're setting yourself up for failure, and it's how you respond to it. It's how you respond to those QC problems. It's how you respond to the customer service. Take care of the person after the problem occurs. It's not— I, and I'm not saying put out not good product. I'm just saying that it's iterative and you have to get better. Britt, how was the first contract you wrote versus the most recent contract you wrote?

Nothing that I'd want memorialized forever, that's for sure. Right? It's all growth. And it should be that way. We all get better. We all learn and things progress. Totally true. Oh, that is— that's such a good reminder. What's the pep talk? What do you say to people who are like, I don't want to produce. I don't want to source overseas. They're just going to rip off my ideas. I've heard that's what happens if you make something in China.

Do you think that only happens overseas? Exactly. So I'll tell a story. We were doing 6 figures a month on Amazon on a state necklace. Again, let's take it back a decade because that's where we're at. And the state— your state necklace was a really big trend, but there was— you could only get one on— Neiman Marcus had one for $450 and there were some on Etsy for between $50 and $100. And I said, I bet I can produce one and sell it for $20. Something that the masses, something that every woman can afford and put on to say she was proud of where she lives. And we did it and it was hugely successful for us. And it was scary. I had to borrow money from my mom to make it happen because I had to do CAD drawings of every single state. And then I had to produce. We started with only producing the first, the most popular, like 20.

And then of course that's not okay because then the people are mad at you.

Yeah. They're mad because where's their state? So you got to produce all 50 and there's minimums on that. But we did it and I think we sold over 150,000 units in the lifespan of that product. But we were selling them on Amazon and doing 6 figures in that. And then Amazon, because they hold the data, saw it as an opportunity, knocked it off and lowered the price. Yeah. Which is their prerogative. That was their platform I was selling on and we had made agreements. That's the reality. If you're gonna start from a scarcity base, you will find scarcity reasons not to do it. I produce all over the world. We produce in LA, we produce in Mexico, right? Like, we produce here in Utah. It depends on what product you're doing as to where the best place in the world is to produce it. But to me, that is— you're starting from a false premise. You're starting from a place of fear instead of creation and love.

Right. And knowing that, what's your why and what's your connection? And like you've found and already shared with us, that's why it's so important to pay attention to marketing and how are you reaching your consumers and why do they wanna buy from you?

What problem are you solving for them? Absolutely. And let's not forget, the market is enormous. You don't need the whole pie. I don't want the whole pie. I just want a little piece of it. Right. I want to create enough value that people see the value and want to participate in it. You can take up like this much of the pie and live a very beautiful life and help and bless a lot of people.

Yeah, absolutely. Such, such a good mindset. And if people rip off your photos or your text or your trademark, come talk to me. There's boundaries you care about and then there's stuff you got to let go.

Yeah. Yes, there's absolutely, it's a both and.

It's a both and yes. So many things. Yep. Boundaries and also bless and release.

Both.

They're important. Yeah, for sure. Would love to turn to your experience in managing employees, especially being in physical product. You need boots on the ground. You need people to help you out. You have this amazing, I know people who, friends of ours, colleagues who go to you and are like, hey, can I look at your setup? Because I'm setting up a warehouse, I'm working on my operations and I want to do it right. And I know that you figured so much out. Walk me through what are some of the things that you've learned in terms of managing people and managing just the physical space that they're working with you at?

Yeah, I think today, and it changes every day, we're always hiring and things are always occurring, especially in this labor market, which is an entirely different conversation we could be having. But I think we have 52 employees. Right now. I will be candid in saying employee management for me is the very most difficult part of business. And just because you're dealing with people and lives. And one thing I heard early on is when you hire another person, it doesn't become multiply. It's not a multiplier effect on difficulty. It's exponential. Right. So we think often that just getting more people is the answer. Which you need people to grow. Absolutely. And you need differing talents and abilities for sure, but that without process and understanding can create a lot more difficulty for you. One of the pieces of advice I received, and I think it's really good, is if you're a solopreneur or it's a couple people and you're like, where do I start? Where, what do I hire for? Asking yourself, what is the thing I like to do least or is outside of my competency? What is the thing that I'm just not good at or the thing that I dread doing? And for me, that was customer care. And I just, frankly, because I'm too close to it and I'm too passionate and involved to hear all of the bad things.

Such an empath in that. And I know that about you. You have such a beautiful, tender heart that I can totally appreciate about that.

And as an Enneagram 3, listen, that's not the easiest—

the criticism for us. No, that's not our strength. Yeah.

Courtney and I, we send back memes about Enneagram 3s because we understand each other. So I hired for that. And as I've taken that on as a belief, as we've continued to go. You look for people's strengths and allow them to do that, and then you look for the place that it's either too expensive of a job for them to continue to do, or it's just not in their purview, and you look to take that portion off the plate. But you get to a certain size and level that throwing another body at it isn't always the answer. It's, do you have a process and a system there first?

So wise. Yeah. What's your standard operating procedure? What's the checklist? Does someone have clarity about how they can be successful in that role?

Yes, absolutely. Because you just throw another body at that and then you're just making more complication when it probably could have been solved through standard operating procedures. And I will be very honest, standard operating procedures, not my strength either. Right? 2019, I hired a president. To come in to help with that and employees' finance because that was where we were lacking. And it was a fantastic decision. It was a fantastic decision because it's her strength and she's incredible at it. We get to play to our strengths instead of focusing on and working through our weaknesses. And there's just the amount of energy it takes us to do the thing we're not good at is so more than when we sit in our genius space. And I understand as you grow a business, that's a privilege and a place to work towards, but you absolutely can work towards it as you go. Identifying what am I good at? Where do I actually shine? And where do I need help? Where do I not have— and start thinking about those things because we all have them.

So what's helped you dig through that? Have you used tools, books?

Podcast, coach, what's help? All the things.

Yes.

So much of entrepreneurship really is working on yourself and your own mindset and your own limiting beliefs, learning about yourself and then applying it to your business. And now I'm going to— one of the most pivotal things I think every business owner should do, and I don't know if you can do this right from the start because I think it takes a little bit to understand, is You can— about why you're in business. Find that why. Find that resonance. Now you can find a personal why from a moment, but a business why is— it takes a little bit for it to find its footing in the market and in who you are before you can really spell those things out. But if you want to have a strong culture and hire the right people, they have to resonate with that why, with that vision, with those values.. And at Sense of Style and Be Fulfilled, we say we hire and fire to that. If the people that come in are not passionate about or have similar values, right? One of our values is own it, right? We say that we own our failures and our successes, both of them. If people aren't willing to own their part, then they're not a good fit. If they are always going to place the blame outside themselves, or not find their peace in it, it's not a good cultural fit at the company. But we had to say those out loud so that then as we're hiring and talking to people, we see if there's resonance. So I would definitely say having that vision for your company. And when I define vision, it is purpose plus values plus mission equals vision. Ooh, I love that. And that's— I'm sitting here and I'm blanking on his name. So Brit, you're going to come through for me in this moment. Good to Great. Hold on, I will Google it. But this is actually from his book Beyond Entrepreneurship in the second chapter.

Jim Collins. That's right. I was going to say it's someone else. It's not Kawasaki.

It's not Zig Ziglar. Jim Collins. Jim Collins. In fact, these are business books that everybody should read. But this is— and he's one of the preeminent business minds that kind of gives business thought leadership. In America, but in this book that's pretty dry, in Beyond Entrepreneurship, that's what he lays out as vision. Having a purpose or a why, your values or a how, and a mission, your what. That is your company's vision. From a culture standpoint, from a hiring standpoint, you want resonance with those things. You want to be having people that bring in differing mindsets, talents, and backgrounds but resonate about why you're in business. Find that why, find that resonance. Now you can find a personal why from a moment, but a business why, it takes a little bit for it to find its footing in the market and in who you are before you can really spell those things out. But if you want to have a strong culture and hire the right people, they have to resonate with that why, with that vision, with those values.. And at Semper Sound Be Fulfilled, we say we hire and fire to that. If the people that come in are not passionate about or have similar values, right? One of our values is own it, right? We say that we own our failures and our successes, both of them. If people aren't willing to own their part, then they're not a good fit. If they are always going to place the blame outside themselves, or not find their peace in it, it's not a good cultural fit at the company. But we had to say those out loud so that then as we're hiring and talking to people, we see if there's resonance. So I would definitely say having that vision for your company. And when I define vision, it is purpose plus values plus mission equals vision. Ooh, I love that. But this is actually from his book Beyond Entrepreneurship. In the second chapter, Jim Collins— these are business books that everybody should read. He's one of the preeminent business minds that kind of gives business thought leadership in America. But in this book that's pretty dry, in Beyond Entrepreneurship, that's what he lays out as vision: having a purpose or a why, your values or a how, and a mission, your what. That is your company vision. From a culture standpoint, from a hiring standpoint, you want resonance with those things. You want to be having people that bring in differing mindsets, talents, and backgrounds, but resonate with whatever that vision is.

Yeah.

And recognize where do you fall? Because I know some people, especially in talking to clients who are in that hiring space, are, I can teach the skills. I'm hiring more about mindset or culture or whatnot. Where do you find in terms of looking at people of skillset versus mindset?

I think it depends on the size of the business. Yeah. So when you're beginning to hire, you hire— who are my first hires? My neighbor, my sister, people you knew, right? My best friend. You hire the people and it works and you teach and you work together and it absolutely works. When you get up into differing— when you get up a little larger in revenue, you need specific skillsets. Listen, I love a hustler more than anything. I love people that are willing to learn and work. Growth is my number one core value. So someone willing to learn and grow and has a good attitude and mindset, I'll take every single day. But I can't sit and teach managerial finance to someone. You went to law school to get a very specific set of skills. That I have employed you as a contractor to use.

Me and Lee and Mason, we have a specific set of skills.

But that's the difference, right? So I— it depends on the job, right? You're not going to give your accounting to someone that doesn't understand bookkeeping, right?

It's not a good fit. Yeah, no, that— I like that. That's— I think that's a good balance in terms of understanding where you're at and what your needs are and when it's time to look for extra support and expertise in areas.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's not to say that people can't learn and grow. And that's what I'm— that's always my hope. I always want everybody to keep learning and growing with me. Absolutely. I think there's nothing more exciting than someone, an employee, that that's where I want to go. And I get to be like, heck yes, let's do it together. Let's make a plan. What skills do you need? What— is there some sort of class you can take? Where can we help? Because we need that skillset too. And if you're passionate about it, absolutely.

Let's do it. Together.

Yeah.

And let's get to that end zone. I would love to hear more about your involvement with John, your husband, in your business, because you guys, you even had a podcast all about this subject.

I know. Married in Business.

Yeah. Brit, it's coming back. It's coming back. Awesome.

Okay.

Hot take, guys. You heard it here. I, cause I've got tons of clients like this and we have so many friends who have done this and it was her vision, it was her hustle in the beginning. And then of course when it was stable, then he decided to jump on over and then get real. There's lots of different ways to tell that story, but the retiring your husband dream and working together.

Tell us about that. Highs, lows. We— John left his— he was the VP of sales at a sourcing company and he left to come to Scent of Style in October of 2014. So we're coming up on almost 8 years and it works for us. One thing that I can say, it isn't without its challenges. And some of my advice in that regard is get really clear, get really clear on what roles are and who's in charge of what. And your boundaries, right? If you don't have the clarity of communication and the continual dialogue around it— can't just talk about it once— a continual dialogue around it is the thing that has worked for us. Now, I have friends that have tried it and said, you know what, that is not good for our relationship. Honor that too. Honor that too, if that is the truth. It is one of the great privileges of my life And that's one of my best mindset tricks on it. Are you looking at it as a burden or a privilege? And as I keep the privilege view of that and saying, how fun is it that we can go to lunch together or really get in the nitty-gritty? How fun is it that we know what's happening in each other's day-to-day? Those are all beautiful things and that work for us. I'm not a proponent of saying it works for everyone. Right. And again, I'm going to really emphasize knowing again, your strengths and your spouse's strengths and making sure that they can complement a business.

Yeah. Take a StrengthsFinder, take an Enneagram, have some good talks and some dinner about it.

Be introspective, be able to self-confront and have some honest conversations about that.

Absolutely. And then be honest about how that's going to affect your home life. How that's going to affect your children, what your rules on boundaries are around that. I am not a great— like, so do you stop talking about work at 5? And I'm like, no, I'm not that person. But if my partner, who is much more someone that says, I don't want to talk about this right now, gives his I don't want to talk about this right now, then I need to be the person to respect it. And that's a lot of trial and error. And honestly, we've had good years in it and we've had really difficult years in And just like the rest of life, that's how it goes. Currently, John runs Be Fulfilled on the day-to-day and I run Sense of Style on the day-to-day. And we come together in the strategy around both. That is where we have found our divisions of labor and it really complements our individual strengths. Now that's ever shifting. And every single year we come together at the beginning of the year. And strategy sessions and reevaluate that. And that's one of my biggest tips is don't think because you talked about it once that it's set in stone for forever. It has to be fluid and it has to go with where the businesses are going, where you are personally, where your mental health is, right?

Where—

what are the needs of your family in terms of caretaking, relationships, parents, children, all the things that, you know, all the parts of our life.

Yeah. Now it can be hugely a huge benefit, but it isn't. It can also be very taxing, right? Like you're taking it all on altogether. It was terrifying to walk away from John's salary and say, we're living off of this.

And the benefits, we won't go into, yeah, self-employed, that's fun.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not for the faint of heart. And also it's the most thrilling adventure of my life. And I'm grateful every single day that I have had this opportunity.

That's just cuz you're a tremendous person inside and out. And people who spend time with that about you and your strength of character. So it's not a surprise that comes out in so many things that you've tried to tackle and challenges inside business, family, all of it. I just love you, Courtney.

You're just fantastic.

And it's not just cuz you're a 3 and I know that it's really good for us to hear this.

Thank you.

And to people who are around us, we need to hear this. We need to hear a lot of this. One last thing I wanted to talk about, and I wanna do this this in the spirit of love and not throw people under the bus, but because of where we are in our careers in terms of helping, especially because we help so many women and work with them, any advice about working with your friends and entering business relationship with friends and navigating that and boundaries?

It's a great question. How I have handled it, because I literally do business every day with my friends, is I have a buffer. I keep my friendship as my friendship, and I have an affiliate manager that manages affiliate relationships. And at Be Fulfilled we have account managers that manage account relationships, and I do not get involved in the nitty-gritty unless I am asked. And I understand that's a privileged place to be, but genuinely, I, I work every day on an abundance mindset, and if what I provide is not valuable to my friends, then I hope they can go and find that value elsewhere, and I will cheer them on as they go. I, as a very high achiever, I'm working every day to flow with what life gives me instead of trying to control it. And that is the best way, is to bless. And for me, is just to say, hey, if that's what you've decided, good luck. Or if what I provide isn't for you, I'm still going to cheer you on the entire way. It is not worth ruining relationships from people that are looking out for the best thing for them and their family and their businesses. And if I mess up, which I do often, I sure as hell hope I'm the first person to say I'm sorry. Or if you point it out, then I say, oh my word, thank you for letting me know that's how that occurred.

We will do better. Yeah. Just be open to feedback because you set yourself up as someone who doesn't want to hear it, then guess what? You won't.

And then it turns into bigger problems. Be very cautious. You only learn this from learning it through experience. And I can tell it to you, but until you have the events and things occur, I don't know how else, but like I, what they say about working with family, I think is a very legitimate thing. I would be very cautious. And that includes your spouse. Please make sure things are spelled out legally, even with your spouse.

Operating agreements and contracts, employment contracts, vendor contracts, vendor agreements, affiliate terms, product contracts.

Let's have— let's— because when it's spelled out ahead of time, you prevent a lot of pain in the future. Be careful about working with family. I would be careful about working with friends. Although I know everybody's going to do it anyways. I have worked with friends for a decade that then chose to leave my company, and it was difficult. It was heart-wrenching. It was painful, those splits. And all I can say is that I am better for having worked with them, and I bless and hope that their lives are fuller and more of what they want now. So there is a level of faith and trust in all of this. That can't really be intellectualized. Yeah, totally. And also, yeah, I sometimes the only teacher is experience.

Yeah, I think that's such good advice. And yeah, amen. Obviously it's like going to the barber and telling them they need a haircut. Obviously the lawyer in the room likes contracts and says, yes, please use them often. But especially like we talked about in the beginning, because this industry is still so new, is a little toddler wandering around of what affiliate marketing and influencer marketing looks like. And people are still cutting their teeth and figuring out business models and how do you profit and how do you make that clear in terms of expectations? It's just so much better to be upfront with people and just not make assumptions and then to not take things personally.

Absolutely. Oh, you're saying some Four Agreements right there, Britt.

Have you read the Four Agreements? Yes, I do.

I love the Four Agreements. Yes. Yeah. Yes. But fantastic book on mindset. I think it would benefit anyone in any area of life. And yeah, part of it is that like, because changes from startup to growth to scale to— there's these stages. So will your needs around employees, around contracts, around all of it. And the thing that got you, the thing that got you to $100,000 will not be the thing that gets you to a million, will not be the thing that gets you to 5. Right? There are stages of business and I just named several of them. It's zero to $100K to a million to $5, $5 to $10, and then $10 to about $20 to $25. Those all require different people, different contracts, different strategies. And I would really highly suggest people looking into that because it's a way to put structure around where you are and what you should be focusing and working on. And then I guess The other thing I would absolutely say is what's your goal? What's your vision? Not everyone wants to become Joanna Gaines, right?

Not everyone wants a growth business.

A lot of people just want a lifestyle business. Beautiful thing. That is. And don't feel shame in what you want for you and your family and your life. If you want to be able to provide dance lessons and vacations and whatever it is for your family, and that is what is being provided by your business, girl, you're doing it. Congratulations. Not everybody want— I don't want to be Sarah Blakely, right? I want to be Courtney Brown. I don't have those same goals. So get clear with yourself and continue. Again, it's not a do it once, do it every year. Continue to ask yourself, am I living into the vision of my life that I want? Or do I need to see room for change and pivoting? And maybe it's not the season. Maybe the season for growth is in a few years. And right now this is how it gets to look and honor that.

Absolutely honor that in yourself. Sounds like you need to be leading retreats where you're doing this with people every year, Courtney, is what it sounds like is that you need to be sharing all this wisdom with more and more people. I hope you guys are just, yeah, appreciating how much, cuz you've just, you've got so much figured out.

Figured out and it's really great. Oh, I've basically got nothing figured out. And that's the key is once you can realize that you don't really know anything and you just flow with what it is and try to stay humble and keep working your tail off. I don't know. I would love to get to do this more. Yeah. That is the work I am being called to move into and the pivot I am being called to. And Britt knows from firsthand experience, it's terrifying. Terrifying and difficult. Yeah, for me. And people will be like, why is that terrifying and difficult? We only have so much energy and time. I have 3 children, I have a spouse that I love deeply, I have 2 businesses, and I need to give care and love and support to all of those things. And shifting is hard, it's difficult, and it's scary. When you only have so much energy, what are you going to let drop?

Yeah.

Which balls? Which of those? And you're like, no, I care about all of them. I don't— I refuse to accept that reality. Yeah. So the physics as we know them. Yeah. Then we have some essentialism.

We try to lean into our Greg McKeown. Greg McKeown gets me every time. Oh, Brit, I think that the work you are doing is so vital. I can't tell you the number of people I have sent to you and said, just go listen to Brit. Just go listen to Britt. The niche and the, what you have brought is, you realize you're a pioneer in the space, sister.

Thank you. It takes one to know one, but thanks. That's the thing. All these awesome businesses were sprouting up and I was like, you are doing great things, but also we got to get you some stuff. We got to get you some legal docs. That's what I love too. Front row seat to business, the world changing and e-commerce changing. And it's so exciting and I love the gatekeeping coming down and lower barriers to entry cuz then people can be creative and fluid and be like, what's a different way we can solve this problem? We can meet this need that I can help people and I don't have to be shackled by only one way to do this one business model.

Absolutely. It's thrilling and exciting. The world is open for us to be creators in whatever way, to see the way people are making money. And changing and what a thrill to get to be a part of it. Just to witness, just to get to witness it is a thrill.

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. My, my favorite new game is my family will ask me at Sunday dinners, we're all together and they're like, what's the most unique business that people are doing? And I always have a list of new ones that have people who found me or I'm counseling with them and stuff. Someone who's an interior designer for private aircraft, for private jets. That's a job. Didn't, don't know if you guys know. That's a job. I have a client who, uh, Santa's mailman.

That's a job. Beautiful handwritten letters. I guess that's the most exciting part is find that passion and the desire. What's the spark within you and go after it.

That's the thing.

Yeah. Gosh, that's the next. Okay. Who's excited about contracts?

Brittany Ratelle. All the things I wanted to touch on, cuz I don't, we don't really have time to give it justice in this conversation, but I know that you've in other places have spoken. More openly and at greater depth about some of the challenges that you've had in your own family in dealing with mental health and having kids with special needs. Would just love to hear a little bit of that experience so that— and then maybe I'll put some of those links in the show notes that way if someone is also walking that journey either with themselves or with a child, what they can maybe learn. And because I know that you've been so vulnerable and heartfelt and open about that experience and it's helped a lot of people.

I've got tears in my eyes as you're saying that. We're in the midst of some things just today and my heart is tender. I am the mother a mentally ill child. I'm the mother of an autistic child. I'm the mother of a Black child. I'm the mother of LGBTQ youth, and they are my greatest teachers and heroes. I'm sorry for the crying and the emotion, but I sat in the shame of having a child with mental health for a really long time, and at the last hospitalization we had, I got sick and tired of having to be quiet about it. Because people aren't quiet if your child has cancer.

In fact, they rally around you, throw you pancake breakfasts, and they—

and that's beautiful. That's absolutely stunning witness of humanity. But when your child is mentally ill and is hurting themselves, you get asked why you're a bad mom and why you work and why if you just did more, they wouldn't act that way. And I'm here as a voice to tell you that's a lie and untrue. And the stigma we have created around it— anxiety, depression, mental illness— is at an all-time high. And unless we are willing to talk and bring light to these subjects, we will continue to lose people to addiction, to suicide, and the light that they have, and to speak about what they can create in this world will be lost. We deserve their creation just like the world deserves ours. And as mothers, I believe we are powerhouses in this regard to bring light and humanity and love to conversations, to tell stories that build bridges and empathy and understanding that then can lead us to make changes in our schools and in our government and to really put money and time and resource to things that ultimately really matter. Absolutely. So I'm absolutely passionate about it. It's an entirely another subject, but my life experiences led me here. I, again, I didn't ask for any of these things, but I am so grateful that God decided that I was the one that got to participate because I am so much better of a human being for being my children's mother.

And they're so lucky to have you. You can hear just in your words and how you describe it and the work that you've done to be there and to be partners with them and to hold their hand through these experiences is such a beautiful thing because it doesn't mean you have to be grateful for challenges like these, but it means that they're not wasted, any of it, any of that growth for them, for you.

Yeah. And for anyone else. And I guess that's the gift or the silver lining in it all is when we can use our pain and our heartache to, and turn it into power for other people for understanding.

And for change. Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, thank you so much for sharing that, Courtney. I just, I know that's such a passion of yours and sharing that information and being open of that, of people who are especially who are looking in those mothers who are still in shadows.

And I guess the only thing I'm going to say is, I— you are not alone if you're experiencing it, if it's your child, if it's your spouse, if it's your sister. You are not alone, not in the least. If there's— I'm in your corner, Brit's in your corner. There are thousands of people just like you. Please know that you're not alone and seek those people out.

Yeah, and get some resources because the— where you're worth it and that fight is worth it and the light's worth it and we want you to stay.

Yeah, absolutely. This is an entirely another subject, but one that I'm going to be bringing up on entrepreneurship and mental health is real, and it is literally another area that no one talks about. And I will begin to talk about it because I am so tired of everyone acting like it's all fine all the time when I have friends and basically every businesswoman I know have a major breakdown at some point.

Yep. Yeah. And yeah. And we couch it in all different types of things, but no one's talking about, yeah, the realities of what intense burnout looks like.

Exactly. And it is real and it does not mean you're weak. It does not mean your business is weak and it doesn't mean that your employees or your customers cannot trust you. It means that you're human and you're doing the best you can and you're having a human experience. So that is something I am actually incredibly excited and passionate about exploring.

So awesome. I can't wait to hear that out, the details on that. So if people want to connect with you, if they want to hear about when that gets launched and is available, how should they connect with you?

Where can they find you? The best place to connect with me personally is on Instagram at Courtney Ellen Brown, just my name. You can connect with Be Fulfilled and Sense of Style also on Instagram.

And yeah. And from everything from mental health, entrepreneurship, if you need help with your physical product, Be Fulfilled. Full disclosure, they're a client of mine and they're also excellent at what they do. They kill it. And I know so many people who get so scared of physical product and think like they can't make it work or they've only heard the horror stories of whatnot. And there, there are valid challenges to it for sure, but that's why it's really great to partner with someone who's really good at what they do and let you sit in what you do, which is is probably the rainmaking and the marketing and the ideation.

Yeah. So absolutely. Isn't that what it's all about? No matter what we're talking about— mental health, entrepreneurship, friendship, motherhood— taking our own genius and combining it with the geniuses of others to lift us all.

Amen. And Sense of Style is just awesome anyway. Love my, love my pink jacket and my jumper. So many of my cute pink things that I have are courtesy of Courtney and getting to go to events with her. This has just This has been such a wonderful conversation. I can't thank you enough for taking time. I know you have such a busy schedule with so many of the needs that we only just briefly touched on today because you care about showing up in your life and being really present. And so I thank you so much for just everything you've contributed to this conversation, all the ones that we've had before, and being roommates late at night in processing and talking about stuff. I know. Once you found your person, you're like, I'm sure everyone else is lovely,, but also I just like to hang out with my buddy. Also Idaho forever. Also Idaho forever.

True enough. So thank you so much.

I appreciate and love you so very much. Thanks so much for joining us today. Please check out the show notes if you're interested in connecting more with Courtney, Sense of Style, Be Fulfilled, or in some of the resources that we mentioned. If you are a fan of business boundaries and, uh, preserving serving your peace and your profits and your sanity. Like Courtney mentioned, make sure that you're taking advantage of having written contracts in your business that can protect you. If you are a creative or online or e-commerce brand owner and have been confused and overwhelmed by what exactly you're supposed to be doing to help build and protect your growing online business, head over to Creative Contracts and we can get you fixed up. We have a, an array of contracts that help you depending on what you sell. And especially if you're in the e-commerce space, we want to make sure that we're protecting your site, your revenue streams, and your relationship with your customers and your vendors and team members. So check out the show notes and we'll have some of the agreements that we mentioned specifically in this episode, especially if you're in the e-commerce space. And if you're not sure what you need but know that it's probably time that you start tackling some of the stuff and kind of next, you know, step up your game in your business, you can also get our our free Legally Legit workbook at getlegitwithbritt.com. You'll also find that in the show notes, and that's a step-by-step guide to help you start to try to cross off your list one thing at a time of what you need to be doing and help get the wheels turning and give you some good questions of how you can start to support and protect that business baby of yours that you've worked so hard to build. And we want to make sure it's set up in a place where you can grow and has the, the legal and top scaffolding to support it all the way through that journey. Thanks so much for joining us here today. And again, if you want to connect with Courtney, we've got her links as well as some of the books, the business books that she mentioned, um, which are tremendous resources, and some of the other podcasts that she's been on. As you can tell, Courtney is such a wise and insightful person, um, and really, I think, takes the, the burden, uh, seriously of sharing what she's learned and how she can use that to help other people, and I just really appreciated her time and the conversation we were able to have today. And always, if you want to connect with me further, know what you're liking in the podcast, who you'd like me to interview next and learn from, and get those nuggets out so that you can use them in your business, drop me a line on Instagram. That's where I like to hang out, and that's where I would love to hear you from.

You—

my DMs are open. Thanks so much, and we'll catch you on the flip side.