How to sell wholesale from Thimblepress founder and business coach Kristen Ley

It boils down to 3 things: people just want to feel seen, loved, and heard. If you can make your customers feel seen, loved, and heard, I would say job well done.

Episode 75: How to Sell Wholesale from Thimble Press founder and business coach Kristen Lay.

Welcome to Creative Counsel with Brittany Ratelle.

I'm your host Brittany, an attorney for creatives who believes in solid contracts and cute office supplies, and who wants to empower you to be a more confident business owner.

Whether you're a creative, influencer, maker, artist, shop owner, or content creator, you are not just a blank. You are a real bona certified business owner.

So let's help you own your business and get you legally legit with Brit. Our guest today is Kristen Lay, the founder of Thimble Press, an international lifestyle company that encourages kindness and fun through artisan letterpress cards, push pop confetti, and viral hits like "Your butt looks great in those jeans" card. Kristen started Thimble Press in 2012 and has grown it to an internationally successful company as a passionate creative, businesswoman, coach, and woman of faith. Kristin sees Thimble Press as a reflection of her life, love of her family, and anchor to one of her favorite places in the world, her home in Jackson, Mississippi. She's a sought-after speaker, coach, and mentor in the wholesale and art business industry, especially in retail gift and stationery, and we are lucky to have her on the Creative Counsel Podcast. Note this episode was recorded a while ago in 2020. You'll hear us reference COVID and the pandemic, but was unfortunately lost on a hard drive failure. But it has been recovered and restored to all of its glory. And we're so grateful we can finally share this amazing conversation with our friend Kristin Lay.

Hello, podcast listeners, and welcome back. I'm so excited to introduce and have our guest here today. Welcome to the podcast, Kristin.

Hi, thank you.

Awesome. We're so excited to have you. For people who aren't familiar with you or your amazing creative work, which they're definitely going to be wanting to be stalking you after this. Can you give us a little origin story of where did you get started in being a creative business owner in the space and what did that arc look like to take you where you are today?

Yeah, absolutely. So I started out of my garage in 2012, and since 2012 we've grown into an international lifestyle company that creates products that celebrate every day and bring joy. So our main staple products are going to be greeting cards, art prints, push pop confetti, lots of confetti tape, party supplies. Lots of color and joy in everything. We want to help encourage and help people encourage others. So that is the quick little snippet of my business, but it didn't come without a lot of hard work and grit and grind and ups and downs and back and forth. It definitely wasn't just an uphill, just our easy slope of like, oh, this is a clear path in front of me.

Yeah, so So when you started, yeah, 2012, where was your entrance point to that? Were you a graphic designer background or did you come from the stationery side or what was your interest?

Yeah. So I majored in graphic design in college. I had a design and marketing studio in Charleston, South Carolina for 5 years. I moved back home to Jackson, Mississippi where I am now and I ended up taking a full-time job doing marketing for a school here in Jackson. And in that time I think I was so used to running a company 24/7, I would get off work every day at 4:30, And I was like, what do I do? What do I do? You know, most people have a life. I'm going to start a new hobby and I want to do what I want to do. And I wanted to make something with my hands. I wanted to get creative. I wanted to just— I didn't want any clients' opinions. I didn't want— I just wanted to do me and do what I was feeling called to do. So I bought a letterpress and I ended up having to have someone come teach me how to use it. It was terrifying. And it sat in my garage for 6 months to a year, um, and because it was just a giant piece of machinery.

Yeah, it looked— it looks like something like that straight from Gutenberg. Like, they look a little imposing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So a letterpress is a printing press. The first one I bought is around 900 pounds, so it's a huge, just 900-pound chunk of metal. And I started printing and creating designs and cards And I ended up doing some flat printed designs and printing those out and cutting them down. And so I started making stuff. And at the time I had an amazing roommate who had an Etsy shop and she said, you really should start an Etsy shop. Her name is Kate Thomas Whitley. She's Little Things Studio in Nashville, Tennessee. She's incredible. And she's— and I said, well, what do you mean? And she's, you can start an Etsy shop. She really showed me the ropes of Etsy and she told me, order your boxes here. So she really helped foster that creative growth in me. And so I literally did, I started it as a hobby. And then with, I am never one to just do something halfway, so I just went all in. And now I still had a full-time job, but I was going to craft shows every weekend. I was doing Renegade craft shows, I was doing craft shows in Chicago, Los Angeles, Chicago, Los Angeles, Austin, Texas, Birmingham, Atlanta, South Carolina. Tennessee, Mississippi.

You were hustling it hard on the circuit.

Arkansas. I was all over the place. I was— I look back now and I'm like, how did I have the energy to do all that? Because I'm 35, about to be 36 now, and I'm like, I don't think I could hustle as hard as I, I did back then. But I got to be in front of customers and get to know people, and I still had an Etsy site and I still had a full-time job. Jeez. So fast forward to 2013, I end up— and I'm still working at the school— January 2013, I attend my first trade show in Chicago, the Chicago Gift Market. Then May of 2000— then February of that year, I signed a lease on a studio space because I was already thinking, I think this could actually go somewhere after my first trade show. Because at my first trade show in Chicago, Paper Source picked us up. I also signed with a rep group. So I was like, okay, this is like a real thing. And before that show, I had no clue what wholesale was like. I had to just like really do a lot of Googling. What is wholesale? Like, how do you sell wholesale? I've Googled so many hours of my life. I can't— it would shock people if I went back and tallied up how many hours of Googling I've done.

You pretty much have a second Google MBA.

Yeah, at this point, basically, because back then podcasts weren't a thing. I remember back in 2007 going to the library on how to start a business. There wasn't really as much just accessible information out there as there is now, which is incredible. So I ended up doing that trade show and I signed this lease on the building that I'm in now, which is funny. And then in 2000— and then in May of 2013, I went to the National Stationery Show. Again, this is all while I had a full-time job. And before the show, they were renewing contracts for where I was working, and I said, I don't think I'm going to be coming back. But there was a position for a marketing director there. And I just was like, God, I really want to do Thimble Press. I started my last business without really praying or going to you and asking if I should do this. I just did it as a young gun out of college, just doing my thing without any help from anyone. And I said, and I don't want to do that again. I don't want to venture out into this wild world of business ownership without knowing this is where you want me to be. And so I had a prayer team, my mom, my aunt, and I, and we all prayed like, Lord, if Kristen's supposed to do Thimble Press, open the doors for her. And we also said I should apply for that marketing position because if that's where I was supposed to be, I need to at least put effort into trying to get that position. So I interviewed for the position, very positive about it, had all these ideas to bring to the school, and I didn't get the job, which I was very qualified for, but I didn't get the job. And I thought maybe this is God's way of of saying that I'm supposed to do Thimble Press. But then little by little, he started blowing doors open for Thimble Press. So we— I attended— I say we— me, I attended by myself the National Stationery Show in New York. Thank God, literally thank God for my neighbors at that show because their husbands helped me do my electric. So I attended the National Stationery Show in May of 2013. After not getting the marketing job, and I didn't renew my contract to work there again because I just had a feeling, God started blowing doors open. So at the stationery show, I went by myself to do this booth. I don't know how I did that. I actually— I do. I had amazing booth neighbors and their husbands that helped me put my electrical up. I would have never been able to do that. They watched the booth while I went to the bathroom or grabbed lunch real fast. Everyone that was there was like, are you by yourself at the show? And I said, yeah. And they're like, are you insane? And I remember leaving the Javits Center after that show, and I'll never forget it. My feet hurt more than they had ever hurt in my life. I could barely walk. I couldn't get an Uber because it was way too crowded, like all the Uber pools were like taken up. So I walked myself to the closest nail salon I could find, and I said, I need a pedicure, I need restorative care stat. We're—

it's—

and I could barely walk.

It's like Legally Blonde, you know, where she's— her mascara is dripping down and she comes in and she's, I need Yeah, that's where you were at.

Yeah. And I just thought if I could go somewhere for a little while, do something, then the Uber will clear up and then I'll be able to get an Uber to my apartment I'm staying at. Anyways, it was a banana show, but we ended up winning best new product. We picked up a ton of wholesale accounts. That's where the Push Pop Confetti was launched. It was just like a whole world opened up. And I remember being in the cab on the ride home and calling my actual first employee saying, so do you need a job? Because I don't think I can do this by myself. And that was the, the kind of one of the big turning points of the beginning moments of Thimble Press. And since then, we've continued to grow. We've had moments that have gone up and then down. And then again, I think that's just going to be business. You pivot and you adjust and you grow and you're flexible and things change. And so since 2012, I have been running this business and it looks very different than it did, but it's But still the structure and the integrity and the core values of our brand have always remained the same. And so that's the long, or the short beginning story. And then as we've grown, we've been featured as Oprah's Favorite Things, we're sold in Anthropologie and Urban Outfitters, we've been sold in Nordstrom Paper Source, we've had a collection at Target, we've worked with Hallmark, we still work with Hallmark, we still have products in Target, we have products in Barnes Noble, and tons of, retailers across the world that are independent retailers that we love and are amazing. And so it's been quite a ride. And again, it's all about pivoting and adjusting and flexibility. And I think especially right now, that's super important.

For sure. Yeah, quite, quite a timely message in terms of being okay that it's going to be— I was texting to a client yesterday who was going through a tough thing in their business. And I said, like, when you look at a heart rate monitor, like it's up and down and up and down.

That's business.

And if you accept that and are okay with that process, then I think you'll— yeah, not that it will be easy because I think that's a misstatement, but that you'll just know that this is a normal— this is a normal journey to be on as part of a small business owner, as an entrepreneur.

Yep, yep, for sure.

And it's going to be all over. Why don't you explain a little bit? Because some of my listeners may, maybe they know a little bit about wholesale and how that works, but they might not understand how this world works because, as you said, it's a special beast, and it's something, especially in the stationery, and that's certainly how a lot of people are selling their goods. And especially if someone's on more of the independent side and wanting to know, how do I get started, and how does that all work, and do you have to be represented and whatnot, can you explain a little bit more just about what that process looks like?

Yeah, so we sell direct to consumer on our website, but the majority of our business is wholesale. And wholesale means that you create a product and you sell it to a retailer, which could be an independent retailer or a big box retailer, for a discounted price. So you're making your profit off of. So for example, a greeting card for us sells to a consumer for $5. The wholesale price is going to be $2.50. So where our profit comes in is after costs are taken out, taken out of the $2.50. So the whole purpose of, or the, I guess the benefit of selling wholesale is you're selling in bulk. So you have to do a minimum order quantity to sell to these retailers. Our minimum order opening order is like $250, and then a reorder is $100. So instead of someone just buying one card, they're gonna buy a lot of cards at one time. So you're getting larger purchase orders than just a standard order from a customer. That's typically how wholesale works. Well, in a very small nutshell. Yeah, if you're wanting to get started in it, truthfully, and you're a product-based business, I would first recommend one, figuring out What are the— what problem are you solving for your customers? What— let's say these people are in the paper industry. We'll just do it like mine because this is what I know and what I'm using. I started creating a product line, and when I first started, I started truthfully by going to just customer shows, craft shows where my customers were showing up. And honestly, that gave me— I didn't dive into wholesale immediately. That gave me— I did about a year of consumer selling because that gave me some really good insight into what people were looking for from me, what they liked. That really helped to refine my line that I would then offer wholesale. It also helped me get some pricing down, maybe find some better manufacturers, all of that. And so that was— for me, I thought that was the best way, and that was the way I did it. That's the best way of entering into that world. And then again, approaching wholesale, you're going to want to make sure you do make a good profit from the products you're creating. So finding good manufacturers to partner with where you can get good margins on products And again, you're not going to want to create every product that comes to your mind because here's the thing, if you're going to be producing a lot of product, you want to order at least— like for me, on an initial run of a brand new greeting card, I do at least 500 because you don't want to do any less because then your margins, the more you order, the better your margin on your product. And I don't want to order less than that. And then I order 500 because I don't want to order 2,000. Yeah, the margins would be great, but if it doesn't sell well, then I don't wanna be sitting on tons of inventory that I can't move. This is very basic wholesale, but I hope this kind of is making a little bit of sense. Really, like, coming up with a line of products that you feel like is cohesive, that represents your brand well, that serves an audience, like solves a problem, and that you feel would be attractive to retailers. And then you're gonna wanna look at, like, producing a catalog, looking at going to shows, but nowadays there's also really good options online if you don't want to attend shows. We attended shows for years and truthfully, I got so burnt out. They're very expensive to attend. They're really good for your brand. I highly recommend going to at least a few shows to put your brand out there and to have that face-to-face interaction with your retailers. But it got— I was so burnt out after doing 3 shows a year in New York that and then going to shows where my reps were in all these other cities that I in 2018 was like, I am done with shows. I ended up leaving all of our reps. I was, but that was a whole like personal thing too. I needed to reevaluate like what I would, a little more of what I actually wanted to do because I was hustling so hard that it was.

Yeah, it was a slight quarter life crisis.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So we, we stopped going to shows, but nowadays there's places like fair.com, Tundra, Bulletin. Abound. These are all wholesale marketplaces where, where you can go and list your products to sell to retailers, and it's all online. They take a percentage of your wholesale order, which is like any standard rep group would do, but it's all virtual, so you're not having to be in person. I really enjoy that process. It's really easy for me. And then we also allow and have opportunities for our retailers to have accounts on our website, and they can shop wholesale on our— directly on our website as well. There are lots of great great reasons to also go with like physical rep groups. You're building relationships. They're people that are extensions of your team, essentially going out and selling your product and showing the in-person product to retailers. And sometimes there's something really great about seeing an in-person product, and they do shows in, in the major markets, then that you have a space there. And so there is definitely value in that, and these reps have relationships with retailers. So they can introduce your product to them. So there's lots of benefits to that as well. And I think you just have to figure out your sweet spot of what works best for you. There is no one, one thing that works for everybody. It just depends on the type of person you are and the type of business that you want to run.

And then certainly, like you said, I love that you, you know, brought it back to what is— how are you going to be different in the market and what problem are you solving? Because as beautiful and fun, I'm sure everyone thinks, oh, these businesses are just so fun to be in party or paper goods or pretty things, which there is a lot of that, but it's also a lot of hard work. And because there's a lot in that space, so I think you need to be very thoughtful about how are you going to differentiate yourself. It's not— instead of not just having another— what was it in the 2000s? It was owls on all the cards and all the licensing. And then, and now it's flamingos, and now we're on to sloths. You got to be ahead of the curve. In terms of what are you offering and how is it going to be different.

Yeah, yeah, that's so funny.

Don't you remember everything was about the owls and the birds? I think like Portland, even they're like, put a bird on it, that's how you make it cute.

Yep.

Oh yeah, all the way. You addressed this a little bit in terms of some of your big leap moments in your business, deciding that you were going to go forward and do the stationery show like on your own, which is— I agree, that just is crazy because I know how much work it is to set up those booths and to have everything all ready and to be able to manning it. That's just incredible. What about your first, you know, person and getting in, moving forward with those steps in terms of building your business? Were you scared about that? Were you worried about making payroll, about moving things forward?

And I was super excited to bring on team members and, but I also didn't know what I didn't know.

You had a healthy level. You knew enough but not too much to be scared witless.

Yeah, exactly. And truthfully, looking back, I, if I went back, I would have made different decisions. In hiring for sure. But again, it's all the beauty and like, you know, what we've learned will build who we are in the future. And but definitely look at your weaknesses when you're hiring. What do you love to do? What do they love to do? Find a nice match. Do they align with your core values? Not just the people that you do partnerships with, but your team members most importantly need to align with your core values. If they don't align with your core values, it's going to make communicating with them and them going out and communicating for your brand super difficult. And again, that's just some things I've learned going through this. But I loved my first teammate. We're still very good friends, and I'm like, I need her back. I think be smart about it. Payroll is a huge expense for a company. If you need to, start with contract and build up from there and have W-9 employees. And then once you're ready to bring on a full-time team member, bring that on. At one point I had 20 people working for me. I do not at all anymore. Because that was too much. It's just, it's a lot of— for me and my personality, and again, it's the type of person you are, the type of leader you are. For me and my personality, that's a lot of pressure on my shoulders. And truthfully, I needed to streamline it down into what really mattered and what was the most important and who really was making a difference within my— I think you obviously need to make sure you have an emergency fund set up for moments like this so that if you get to the point where you need 3 months to be able to pay your employees in a savings account, I really believe that because there's going to be—

yep.

And if you and your employees and your team— that was always for me my biggest expense beyond rent, beyond anything. Payroll was my biggest expense. So always have a savings account just tucked away that if push comes to shove and times get hard, you can pull from that to pay them because times will get hard. That's just the reality of the world we live in, even if it's not your fault or even if the market is crashing. Look, we have a pandemic right now, so you just never know what's going to happen. It's always good to have that emergency fund. And again, these are all things I've learned through the process of having team members, not having team members, building contract workers on my team. Like, it's just, it's a lot. And again, everything comes down to what is right for your business. And just because X, Susie Q, and Corner B hires 4 people doesn't mean you need to hire 4 people.

Yeah, to be careful of that comparison game there.

Yeah, for sure. I think we like to get into that because we think, oh, they must be making that right step, but we don't know the story or we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. So again, we don't know how much money they're bringing in. So again, evaluate it from only your standpoint, not someone else's.

Yeah. And I like what you said there in terms of be thoughtful and know— and I've heard this from some of my other clients and guests— is that it's so much easier to hire slow than the opposite, because it's heartbreaking and it's difficult to let people go and to have to and to have those—

That's the worst things I've truthfully in the ownership of my business, letting people go has been the hardest things I've done, the hardest thing I've done. And at points when we grew really fast, I made the bad decision of hiring fast. And so I would say if you can hire slow and pace yourself out and also pace your growth out, for sure do that.

Yeah. Instead of jumping at every opportunity because it's good and growth is good, but it also is new level, new devil for sure.

Yes, 110%.

Yeah.

For things to manage. Yeah, for sure. Well, you've mentioned some of the things that are hard about owning your business. What do you love about being an entrepreneur? So, and what are you grateful for to be in a space, even if you have to take on some of the risk?

I love being able to make my own schedule, and I really love serving people and knowing it comes from me and what I'm doing. And I feel like I'm making a difference in people's day-to-day, even if they're little small differences. I feel like all those— like, I visualize all those little small— like, every greeting card that goes out, we've sent hundreds of thousands of push pops out into the world. And I think of every time we send something out as like a little red heart. So I picture all these little red hearts everywhere. So it's like little impacts I'm making in people's lives, and that's That to me is what keeps me going and keeps me doing what I do. And I love to paint and I love to draw and I love to do art, and I get to do that a lot, which is soul-filling for me. And then I'm such a person that I want to put my all into everything, and I'm gonna go full force. And when I've worked for companies in the past, I haven't been able to fully shine and do what I'm the best at. And so with Thimble Press, I can do whatever I want.

I can— you're— it's yours. You're the head honcho.

Yeah, the decisions. I can run cool campaigns that I wanted to run that I knew would be successful at companies I've worked at. I can— I can— and it's funny because I remember leaving that job before I went, um, full-time Thimble Press, and I remember the head person at the school saying, how are you gonna even make money? And I was like, oh, just—

oh, just watch.

Just watch. I was very polite. I was like, oh, I've got this, because I was at that point, I was making more money on Etsy than I was at my job. So I think I've got this, we're good, we're good. But I thought, I can't wait to show them, because I didn't get the job as the marketing head of marketing, and I was like, I can't wait to show them what I've got up my sleeve. Missed out on— not that I'd want to work there now, it's just kind of—

yeah, yeah, like I burned the ships behind me. And not only that, I am like action figure walking forward, not even noticing the explosions. That's how confident I am moving forward. Full like Avengers moment there. Yeah. That's a great segue. You were talking about, you love that you get to still so be hands-on with your art, with the artistic creative process. How do you keep that fresh and alive for you? And how do you balance that out with more of the managing and administrative side? Cause you have to wear lots of hats as CEO.

I wear tons of hats because I also do mentoring and coaching with clients at kristinlea.com. I really have to set aside time in the mornings. I hate emails. So I literally try to tackle all my emails because I don't like them first thing in the morning. So I get— try to get the hard stuff out of the way. Of course, then I get all the responses by late afternoon.

I'm like, no, start that round up again. Yeah, just a whack-a-mole.

Yeah, I really try to— if I'm gonna— if I'm gonna do art, I really like to set aside a whole day or at least a half a day where I can fully immerse myself, where I'm not checking emails. I think it's— or if I have a creative project I'm working on, I have to turn off all notifications because if I'm distracted, that will completely interrupt me and my flow and my process. And especially right now during COVID-19, it's been really hard to get creative and to dig down and like, and to produce, because my brain is just like in 50 million places going, what is happening? So that's been— I've had to really push through some creative blocks. And so like last weekend, I got out all my art supplies and I put them all on a giant table so I could just see everything, so I could just see all my supplies there. Because before, they're just in bins. I couldn't see what I had. And I got pastels out and paint, and I just had— and I created with no purpose in mind. I just created to create. And I think sometimes we need to be able to just have creative expression for creative expression without a deadline attached to it, because sometimes that deadline and sometimes that specific project that we know we're using to make money can almost put a block on our creative flow, right? And so And so for me, I have to set aside time for that.

I think that's so smart. Yeah. And just to be in with the art and part of the process just for its own sake and not have to immediately go and put on business hat of how am I going to scale this and what product is this going to go on or how I'm going to, you know, license it or all the other millions of questions that could come out. Just be there with the color and the shape and the space and just let it be.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes. Awesome. So do you have any other tricks for overcoming creative blocks? Are there things that you like to watch or be part of or maybe to stay away from alternatively?

So I love obviously Pinterest. It can just spark your imagination. But for me, when I can really get out into nature and just without technology, if I just go on a walk with my dogs, it's almost when you reset your computer and it goes boom and the Apple or whatever Windows pops up and it's reset. When I go on a walk without my phone, it's bong, and it's resetting my system for me to come back and to try something and to get back into something or to do a new task. And so if you can reset yourself, get out of your normal routine and reset yourself with something, maybe you're diving into a book, maybe you're diving into Pinterest for 10 minutes, maybe you're on a walk, maybe you go on a run, but just interrupt your day sometimes with something if you need a creative jolt. Um, but I, some people are like, don't get on Pinterest. You're not going to be inspired. I am so, I get so inspired by Pinterest and like seeing other people doing amazing things, not even art beyond that, like fashion is a huge inspiration for me.

I think that's the difference though. You're not limiting, you're not putting into Pinterest stationery or party supplies. Cause I think it's true. I think you can narrow down your view, but yeah, go look at buildings and architecture and fashion or modern art. Go wide. With your influences. And I think, yeah, you can still keep it as a source of inspiration.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I think that's great advice. So, well, any— we talked a little bit about some of the tough moments that you've had to push through and overcome. Any kind of legal lessons that you've learned along the way?

100%. One is if you file for a patent application, make sure you follow up a year later and file the actual patent. I had the patent application on the Push Pop Confetti and we got so busy making them that a year passed and I did not file my patent. I lost that ability and now I have so many people ripping me off, which is fine, I guess that's a compliment. But me, I'm like a business owner, I'm like, that's so many lost opportunities.

But that stinks.

Yeah. Yeah. And all I can do is be like onward and upward and move forward and keep pushing. I can't do anything about it now. Yeah. So that was definitely a huge learning lesson. For me. And I think taking time to slow down— don't work yourself to death to where you're spinning out, to where that does happen, to where you do miss a huge patent filing and potential millions of dollars worth of business, right, of revenue, of licensing, of other ways that you can monetize your brand and extend your influence.

Because I see people who maybe aren't as familiar to the world of things like wholesale or licensing or whatnot, of how that works, that says you don't have to be in the business of making t-shirts if you don't want to. But if you build a brand and have protected it, that's the important. And you need to get a trademark, you need to have stuff copyrighted, you need to have those steps, because then you have something to sell. Other people can't just rip you off. And that's not to say that it's okay or it's ethical or legal, but unless you have something to back it up, that is a lot of times what people will do with how easy it is to get access to content and products these days.

Yeah, yeah. And we do have the trademark on the name Push Pop Confetti and Thimble Press, which is good, but a patent would have been much better and would have been really great.

So dang, that's, that's, that's a tough one for sure.

So yeah, and I just am like onward and upward because I'm like, oh gosh, Kristen, I always am of the mentality of what's meant to be is meant to be. And that was maybe part of my just learning journey.

Your learning journey for sure. Well, you mentioned it as well, that of course there are people who will copy you, who will rip off, who will take what's great about your cards and your products and we'll get— make things that are exactly the same or way too close for comfort. How have you tried to manage that? Because it can be— it's not just a purely business thing, it's an emotional thing too when it's your art and it's your passion.

And yeah, typically when that has happened, because we've had it happen multiple times, we've had to send— or actually our lawyers have sent cease and desist letters to the artist or the website or whoever they can find a contact. We've had instances where a huge company ripped us off and I, my lawyer actually wrote me a letter for me to email to the head CEO of the company. They researched the company, they did a lot of research on the company, who the founder was, all this stuff, and had me send it instead of getting legal involved first. And that was an awesome move on their part to make that call. And that resolved it, which was great. Yeah, we have, we've had, and again, to me, I'd rather just have a lawyer like you step in place than me deal with it. I feel like it's a little more professional to do that. You're not necessarily having to, you know, get all messy and into that. You can— that's why people hire you.

Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, there's an appropriate balance. And certainly I think for some business owners, they know themselves and their time and their talents. And yeah, they can focus their energy on moving forward if they know that we've set up good boundaries and if this happens, this is our response to here. And putting it in an appropriate place, because I also have clients or come to me, and because of the nature of what they create or the way that market is that we do have to let some things go, which is a bummer, but we get to try to refocus those energies, dig in deeper into that why, what's different about them, how are they selling greeting cards versus someone else.

Exactly. And it does get interesting with the copyright because in the world, the legal world, you can kind of change art like up to 80%, I think.

And yeah, it's— there's not an official percentage, but it's like you can do quite— it's all about that substantiality test. Are they substantially similar? When people are like, well, how similar? And I'm like, that's a good question. That's why lawyers can argue about this for all the livelong day. Yeah.

Yeah. And we've had to file trade dress violations and stuff like that. Yeah. That's again, all learning experience. Yeah.

And something that comes with being at the forefront when you're at the top of the heap, then yeah, that's, that's part of that new level, new devil place that you get to be at. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Any other kind of general lessons that you've learned in terms of that you could maybe impart to business owners in terms of where, whether they're just getting started or whether they've migrated and looking to be in that next growth phase of hiring and moving their business forward? What do you wish that you would know from your perspective now?

I wish I would have had like podcasts to listen to and more online education, but really I think it's be true to you. Don't look around at what everyone else is doing. Make the right decisions for you, your family, your company, your faith. All those things like are so important. And, and slow down. Like, you're only in competition with yourself. And this is— you're running a race of life for sure, but you don't need to run it so fast that you literally lose track of everything but your work. And I did that, and I've been there, I've walked in it, and that was super hard. And I ended up spinning out. And I swear the Lord brought me back through all that. He brought me back to him. All the good parts of life that we're also supposed to enjoy besides work. And so don't make that your idol, your prime focus. Integrate it into your life, make it part of your life, but not the, the hero, because you're the hero, not, um, not what you do.

Yeah, yeah, you're not defined by that. It's not all there is to you. You're so much more than that. One I love, and you've talked here openly about faith, and I know that's something that you talk about a lot on— how have you navigated that? It's not always a welcome place in the business world to discuss matters of faith personally. So how have you approached that, or have you had pushback on that, and how have you handled it?

Yeah, it's interesting. I believe one of my spiritual gifts is evangelism. Even as a young child, I've never had a problem talking about my faith, and I've always just approached it as, this is my truth, this is my life. I'm not trying to push it on anyone. I'm just saying, if I can't speak about how I've walked through my business and my life life without talking about it, without acknowledging it, because not acknowledging it would be a lie for my life. And so I just speak about it from my perspective. And yeah, sometimes people don't want to hear it and they unfollow me, but that's okay. I really don't take it personally. Like, I, I always believe— I— this is going to sound so silly, but I believe God, just like he created us, just like he's created the Earth, I believe he created Instagram. And I think that often when I feel strong about posting something about my faith, I'll also hear the devil's voice trying to talk me out of it. And I think the Lord uses us and these platforms to speak to people in an exact moment. He's so intimate in our lives. He may need that post to go to Susie Q in 12 minutes, and he knows in 12 minutes she will scroll through that Instagram and see that post, and it will spark something in her., and I do believe that. And so I just can't, I can't sit back and not respond to how I feel the Lord calling me in my life. I feel like that's a disservice to my faith and to my truth. And so if I feel something, I'm usually gonna act on it.

No, I totally agree with you. And just recognizing the tools and Instagram, like many other things in the modern age, are tools and they can be tools for good and bad. But if you're you're thoughtful about what you've been called to do and how that might help someone else, and you listen to that, then you'll get more, like little breadcrumbs.

Yeah. And I always think, like, people that do believe and have a Christian faith, like, why not share it? And I know there's a lot of people that are scared to share it, and they think they're going to lose followers, but I just always have known, like, the Lord's gonna bring the right people to buy from me— they are not even the right people— the people he wants to buy from me, to work with me, And because my life is not in my hands, and I really believe that and trust in that. If you feel called to share your faith, share it. Try it. See how you feel. See if it touches someone's life. And you may not know whose life you touch. You may never know, ever. But you have to know the Lord— if you feel that the Lord is using you for something far bigger than you even understand. And I get real choked up about that because I believe, like, walking through what I walked through in 2017-18. It was painful, it was hard, but he's using it now.

And there's, there's a sanctifying of that experience being used for something else. Yeah, something larger.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. So no, that's a no. Don't ever apologize. No, I love it. I love it. And I wish and I hope that maybe there's— because we've now decentralized and there's so much more individual platform and space for people to share who they are and what they believe and what's important to them— that's okay. And that we give people space space, just like we give people space for whatever their authentic self is. That's such a buzzword we talk about, be authentic. Okay, let me be authentic with what they believe in, even if that's faith in a time when faith is not on trend.

For sure, faith will always be on trend for me too.

Me too. I'm in the same camp, girl. So I think, yeah, and I just, yeah, I really admire that about you. And I think that's a really beautiful thing that you've integrated as part of how you share and how you show up to people, and you're unapologetic about it.

Thank you.

Tell me about what you do in your, in your, in your coaching and kind of your business, teaching the business side of that. What is it that you feel like people are needing most help with and how do you try to help and serve them and what lessons are you learning there and being in more of now of an educator space?

Yeah, so I work with a lot of women primarily who are small business entrepreneurs and a lot of them are product-based companies, very similar to what ThimblePress does. So creating a product, selling it to direct consumer and wholesale, and then I work work with a lot of artists who are wanting to get into the licensing game. So again, I think people are coming because they've seen what I've achieved. This is something I want to do. She has a lot of advice, which I do. I can talk to you about those subjects all day long. And so I really work to help companies. I have a lot of them come to me and say, I want to take my business to the next level, I want to expand my revenue streams. And so we really take a deep dive into their organizational structure of, well, what's going on? Where are you actually making your money? Where are you spending your time? You know, analyzing all of that. Is that really important what you're doing over there? Is that making you money? Are you excited about it? Because I think a lot of times as business owners, we get wrapped up in doing what we're doing because we're doing it and we don't always go back and analyze, well, did I really love that? Or did I just spend 4 hours on that and make no money? Did I— and my friend Katie Hunt of Proofed Product calls it the time-heart-money analysis, or that's what I call it. That's what she does and I love it. Because I think it's so important to go through that at least every 6 months in your business.

And so maybe even every quarter if you can.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like to break down someone's organizational structure and really dive in, like I was saying a minute ago, and then figure out where can we add additional revenue streams that would make sense? Where can we get rid of things that aren't bringing you in money that you're spending way too much time on? Because I think, again, sometimes you need an outside perspective on that. And then I help especially people that are wanting to walk in that licensing lane. We talk about how can you develop a brand book book? How can you make a pitch? How— what does that whole process look like? And then I refer them to people like you to help work on contracts, making sure people are sound and they're not getting taken advantage of. Because here's the thing, a lot of artists get taken advantage of, and they need to be making more money.

I mean, yeah, they should. They, yeah, they have a gift. Yeah. And they've got made beautiful artwork, and they need to make sure they have an ironclad licensing agreement. And which products does their artwork get to be on? What are their percentages? Do they get paid up front? What do the royalties look are they getting their reports every month? Are they getting shorted on their reports? Do they have a right to audit? Those are things we're adding in all the time to contracts because they'll send something over and it could have been recycled from 20 years ago. And I've seen contracts like that.

Yeah. And it takes advantage of the artist. And so I'm like, and I know you are too, you're on team artist, like you want these artists to get paid and to be valued. And so we walk through a lot of that and we really make sure that their art is in a cohesive format to where it would be turnkey for a manufacturer to take it. And be able to make a collection from it. So really honing that down, honing their look. A lot of times they come to me with all this art and I'm like, okay, we've really got to like, what, we got to go through it. What's the best? What do we need to kick out? Because I take my professor from college's statement of you're defined by your weakest piece.

So I like that.

Yeah.

Out the dead weight and let's move forward with the best, even if it's a smaller amount.

It's pure. It's a better concentration of your best work. You don't need to be everything for everybody. You don't need to be maximalist and minimalist. Let's hone in on what your signature thing is.

Yeah, stuff that doesn't make sense. But as an artist, sometimes we need that person to tell us that because we're very attached to our art and we, even if it sucks, and so we need someone to say, this is great, but I don't know if it's a good fit right now.

Yeah, this is, you're wonderful and your mom might love it. Yes and yes. But yeah, you're right. I, I love that, that you offer a hybrid of like the consulting and business, but also the art critique and the portfolio critique in terms of this is what we're dealing with, and let's be very thoughtful and intentional about what's actually driving your bottom line. And like you and I both know, creatives and artists sometimes are very talented, passionate people. That's not always their strong suit, is tracking their numbers, tracking what's selling, how much of this card am I really doing versus how many felt things am I really cutting up, and is that making Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And helping them understand the difference between big key accounts versus smaller accounts, helping them really think about press and how they could put that into the contract and possibly make more money, how to send press kits, how to send press boxes, how to get noticed. Like, we go through all of that, and, and obviously depending on what the client is specifically coming to me for, we really focus on that as the main thing. But then we usually end up finding other avenues that we can really like shift and grow the business and organize it and structure in a way that works for their life. Because that's the thing, I don't want any business owner to walk through what I walked through in 2017, '18. It was miserable, it's horrible. If I can prevent— that's why I started kristinlily.com. I was like, I don't want anyone to walk through this. This was miserable.

Yeah, it's that overwork, it's that burnout, it's that running faster than you have strength.

Yeah, yeah. So let's work smarter, not harder.

Amen. Yeah, and you're a really smart woman. And so yeah, you're at a point now where you can mentor and be that guide for other other people, you can be Yoda with confetti.

Yeah. Oh, I love it. And I love Baby Yoda.

I know, Baby Yoda is adorable.

Yeah. Baby Yoda with a little push pop.

Oh, so cute. Yeah, we were, we're big fans of The Mandalorian at our house. And so yeah, we loved watching Baby Yoda through the whole journey. Yes.

Awesome.

Awesome.

You've given us so many great tips here, but I just wanted to see if you had any kind of close listicle about what what would be good for people if they're taking away from this episode of, okay, Kristen's amazing and I want to be like her and I want to have an amazing business. How do I move forward? What are things that I can be doing to give myself and try to hold myself accountable to move the needle forward? Yeah.

In my business. Yeah. So I guess it depends on where they are in their business too. But one, make sure you're solving a problem with your products. Two, make sure you listen and ask questions for your customers Also ask questions of, can I do this collaboration? Put yourself out there. Ask to do— I always say people don't ask for what they want enough. Pitch yourself as much as you can. The more you ask, just mathematically, the more yeses you're going to get than no.

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

Wayne Gretzky. I would say that for sure. You have to be your biggest cheerleader. If you're not going to be excited about the things that you're doing, how do you expect anyone else to be excited for you? Sometimes you have to yell when even when you think it's a whisper on social media. Sometimes I feel like I'm saying things over and over again and that I feel like I'm yelling them. But truthfully, what everyone hears is, so I'm so excited because we're so inundated with noise.

It's true.

Yeah. You think you're being annoying.

You're not. Because if you— no one sees all your stuff. That's the other big thing about social media, because I feel the same way. I'm like, but I've told everyone that they need to get their LLC, surely they know. And I'm like, no, Brittany, they haven't, because they have busy lives and they are not listening and consuming every piece of your content. They're not. You're not that big a deal.

I think that all the time for myself. So, and I also think build your email list. Like, social media could go away tomorrow, you're— you will always have your— build, build that email list. Work, make sure you have a working website that functions for you, that you can update and be fresh. We just did a really amazing webinar yesterday with my friend Myrna Deremy. She's an SEO expert. She gave us lots of awesome advice. Make sure you're doing all the things for your website that really can help it grow on Google and for your— take surveys. Again, this goes back to asking questions. Continue to ask and engage with your customers. Because they, one, they want to know you care. Because I always say it boils down to 3 things: people just want to feel seen, loved, and heard. If you can make your customers feel seen, loved, and heard, I would say job well done.

Yep, exactly.

I love that. That's what they want. And they may not say that, but that's, as humans, that's what we just want in life. We want to matter in life.

Yeah, we want to be seen.

Yeah. Yeah. And so we want to know that we matter to people. And so again, make your customers know that they matter. So that's a short little list of a lot.

No, that's a power list. And it's something that we all need that reminder because like you said, it's— we've heard it, but it's probably— it's been a whisper in our mind and it needs to be a yell. It needs to be stronger so that we actually do it. Because the greatest ideas, the greatest art, the greatest products, that all— if they stay up here then they're not blessing anyone's lives.

Yeah, I know, I know. So many people have so many great ideas, and that's what just fires me up. So I'm like, oh, let's do it!

Let's get you going.

Exactly.

Okay, people want to connect more with you. I know you have an amazing Facebook group. Tell us about all the resources and where they can find you and connect and learn more about all the goodness that you have.

If you want to shop with us, thimblepress.com, and we're on social at Thimble Press. Everywhere. One word, thimble, like you sew with, press, one word. And then that's what I say every time I call, like when I have to call someone to like get in touch, I'm like thimble, T-H-I-M-B, like a thimble you sew with.

And then you're like, from Peter Pan, this is a kiss, the thimble, that.

Yes, I mean, you should just hear me on these calls, it's hilarious, especially with my accent. Yeah. So then my— on if you want to follow my consulting and my personal account, it's Kristen with an E underscore Lay. And then kristinlay.com is the website. And then through this whole COVID-19 situation, I started a Facebook group called Stronger Together, and I've been doing webinars, which you spoke on one, and it's wonderful. Thank you. I've uploaded all of the replays to this Facebook group. You can find it by searching the Kristin Lay page and then looking at the groups, and you just join the group, and it's super easy. But there's a lot of great resources in there. I have a free vision board workshop, hand lettering worksheets you can download, all the replays, lots of goodies.

So many goodies and resources. So I will link all those in the show notes, guys. So if you are interested in this, which why wouldn't you? Kristen is just sharing her heart and what she knows and bringing other great other experts and people and mentors to help you get better and stronger together and all rise and get through this. We believe this is a tunnel, not a cave. Use this time to work on what you can do to move forward and come out the other side into that sunshine.

Yeah, you need to do that as a quote. This is a tunnel, not a cave.

This is a tunnel, not a cave. I think of like Plato's cave, but cooler. Thank you so much, Kristen. I just really appreciate it. I know that your time is so valuable. Yeah, I can't thank you enough for taking time to be on and chat with us and just share all these gems of wisdom. I know that this episode is going to help a lot of creative business owners tremendously.

Tremendously.

Awesome.

It was awesome chatting with you.

Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to this awesome conversation. I just love Kristin and I love her spirit so much and her drive and super jealous of her Southern accent. I'm going to be honest. I'm in another life. I'm coming back as a Southern woman because just everything you say sounds more charming. And like I said, this episode was recorded a while ago, but good news is that all the lessons and all the wisdom that Kristin shares are relevant now more than ever. There's nothing that has been lost in the timeline. So, so grateful that we can share this. Um, she is still at Thimble Press and she's killing it there. You can connect with her on Instagram and see her beautiful feed. And she is still offering business coaching. She's got a couple different offerings there, and all those links are going to be in the notes. So if you're interested, if you're in the biz and want to know everything from where do I get started and should I be selling on Etsy to things like how do I set up my brand book and what should I be wholesaling and what should I be pricing, Kristen digs into and does all that and also has some even in-person events which are really cool if you're local and want to get into that. Since we've recorded this, we also have some other offerings that might be relevant to you if you are looking to get into wholesaler. We have a wholesale template agreement that's in the Creative Contract Shop, so if you want to get into this and, and are looking to expand into wholesale and want to have a nice industry-tested tidy contract to be able to offer people, we've got that and we've got you covered. And it comes with instructions on what the heck is in this agreement, what are the things, what are the big decisions that I need to be making. Um, and we talked a little bit about them today in the episode, and Kristen kind of walks through on terms of pricing and minimum order quantity and shipping insurance and all those things that start to be a little bit bigger deal when we're talking about bigger quantities, because that's just where stuff can go wrong. And we want to make sure we clear conversations and expectations from both sides, which, you know, that's why we love a good contract. So if you're interested in that, make sure you snag that. The link is going to be in the notes. And if you are looking to expand and haven't gotten your website legalized yet, let's get you covered there and get that, all my website bundle, in your footer. And if you don't know where to start at all, and if I'm— if this sounds like I'm speaking, you know, uh, gibberish to you, then go ahead and snag my Legally Legit Workbook. It's my 3-page, beautifully designed, if I do say so myself, like I dare you to find a legal resource out there that looks cuter, resource for you to know step by step, how am I supposed to get my business legally legit? What do I need to worry about? How can I start tackling these things little bite-sized at a time instead of just feeling overwhelmed and putting my head in the sand of like, I don't get legal, I don't understand it, it's all too expensive and scary, or that I don't need to worry about this yet. Because the truth is that some of these issues with a little bit of stuff on the front end can turn into big headaches on the back end. And I have to send emails out every, just about every day. I have to usually deliver some sort of bad news to someone with something of, and you know, it's not the time to be like, I told you so, because it's normally they found me later in the game. But it's super painful to tell that. And I sometimes I'm like, I'm like a broken record out here saying the same thing thing over and over again, and then I have to send one of those out and I'm like, no, I haven't said it enough. And so I will keep on saying it to maybe, uh, help you, that you maybe don't have to go through this fight, that you don't have to have that lesson, that you can spend your hard-earned energy and time and money, um, in a different place and not fighting one of these battles. Okay, so please, please let me— help me help you. Download the Legally Legit Workbook. You can get it at getlegitwithbritt.com, or the link is in the show notes, and get point, okay? Your business matters too much. You matter too much to me, okay, to let this go by any longer. If it's something that's been on your list, let's get it done, guys. It's taken care of. Let's, let's make this your moment.

Make it your month, okay?

Thanks so much for joining me here.

As always, if you have loved what you have listened or found something useful or helpful, would always appreciate a share.

Would also always appreciate a podcast review. So if you can do that, I'd really I appreciate it. It helps other people, business owners like you, be able to find this podcast and have it as a resource for them. And I love to and plan on keep offering this as a free resource to any and all that I can. And that helps me make it worth it in terms of all the things that are on my plate. So really appreciate you.

Thanks so much.

And we'll catch you on the flip side.