Bryan Johnson On Definitely Dying, Hair loss, Making Money While Being Depressed, AI worship & More.

So let me start by asking you this. I'm going to start off just slightly morbid. We all know how you internally protect yourself. Everything you're doing, which I applaud. It's absolutely amazing. Now, what I don't want to happen with you is that, and I know you mentioned this on the Tucker Carlson show, that you may die, ironically, by eating broccoli or getting hit by a bus or something along those lines. What I don't want to happen is that you do die by broccoli or getting hit by a bus, and then the Internet trolls come out and say it was all for nothing. What was the point of that? You're going to get hit by a bus anyway, which I don't agree with, because what you're doing is it's going to be passed down from generation to generation on how to live as long as we possibly can. We know how you internally protect yourself. How do you externally protect yourself? And you take precautions from not dying externally. Do you wear seatbelts? Do you. I saw, I think you went mountain climbing. Are you more protective of yourself because you want to continue on what you're doing?

Yeah, I mean, on the first point, I mean, the fact that I'm the don't die guy means I will definitely die. So. And. But the thing is, that gives me comfort is that even though I know that's inevitable anyways, I think that this movement has been born. It's. It has become a global phenomena. People are aware there's an effort for someone to try not to die. And so even though if I died and people would say, like, it didn't work, he still, you know, died from the following causes. The. It's really a philosophical movement and an idea that has right place, right time. So I'm confident this thing is here to stay. It's going to usher in a new era of being human. And I. I am the first person who tried to do this protocol. So I'll be more of a symbolic figure. So I think it'd be fine. In terms of, like, yes, I. I do evaluate life through a risk lens in everything I do now, I'm also, I should say, I'm very hypocritical. It's like, as much as I want to think of myself as a rational, consistent human, I'm probably terribly inconsistent. Like, if you were. If a friend were to say, but, Brian, you do the following things, I think they would be right.

Such as?

I mean, I don't know. I mean, I'm saying I'm in Our blind spots. Like we all want to view ourselves as rational and consistent and well reasoned. But when you peel back the onion and someone close to you is like, but wait a second, you do the following things, how does that make any sense? I guess I'm trying to acknowledge my own limited self awareness of whatever I say is probably not going to account for everything I do. Having said that, I do wear a seatbelt, I do drive very slowly. And when I get into my car, I say driving is the most dangerous thing I do every time I before I drive because it really is the highest risk thing when the phone is in the car and it's like, look at me, look at me. Ding, ding. You know, it's like, I know that's the danger shot. So I really try my very, very best to not do it. It's very hard to do it. So yeah, I try to be thoughtful.

If we got to the point where let's say a majority of the people on earth don't die and they, I don't wanna say again, live forever, let's say 150 years old and the population grows and grows and grows, what does that mean for the Earth, for overpopulation? Is that going to cause some catastrophic events? Because everybody's living forever and no one's actually dying.

Yeah, I mean there's always predictions of overpopulation or we don't have enough energy or like this or that crisis. And they don't always turn out to be what people thought. I mean this is the case in, you know, in the early 1900s with the. The horse was the primary mode of transportation in New York. There's horse manure everywhere in the Hudson river. Everybody was getting sick. You couldn't remove horse manure fast enough. And so everyone's like, this is a, it's a crisis, what do we do? And then Henry Ford created the Model T and horses went away. So actually we didn't have a horse manure problem, we had, now had a car problem. So typically the problems you think are problems are not the actual problems. New problems arise and become the new problems. So whether that's a problem or not, I think it's tbd. But it's also the case that we do value life in our society. And so I think I'd rather take on the challenge of how do we support more humans on the planet than I would, how do we not have more humans?

One of the main problems amongst men and women is one out of every three men, I believe one out of every three women as well, experience hair loss. Right. There was a study recently done, I believe it was Spain. I'm not sure if you saw it, where they actually figured out a way to grow hair in 100% of the mice that they were testing it on. I know, you know, you, you de. Age yourself hair. You've done all different sorts of treatments. Where do you see hair loss going in the next 10 years with everything that we've learned so far? And do you think the study is legitimate?

Yeah, I think that, that we've looked at like five or six different companies who are on the bleeding edge, are doing things, and people who are actually growing hair follicles. So I think it's a very promising field. Nothing yet is in final stages of approval, so there's still some R D time. I'd say the most probably practical thing for most people is do not wait for your hair to fall out.

Everything preventative?

Always. Yeah. So, like, in your early 20s, if you're a man, start your hair protocol because your follicles are already losing strength. So get out in front of it, don't wait for it, because by the time you notice, it's like, wait a second, I've lost 30% of my hair. It takes time to see it. So, yeah, I have a robust hair protocol early in life to not get behind it.

So when I watched the documentary on Netflix, which was amazing, by the way, don't die, you had mentioned something about because of your extreme lifestyle, it was difficult to find somebody that matches that, a partner. Have you been getting better at that or have things been progressing in that category? Have you, have you found somebody that, you know, can, can match your intensity when it comes to a healthy lifestyle.

I mean, ironically, I think I have more potential suitors now than I ever had before. Just because, like, you know, like a lot of, a lot of females will say, like, I want this. Like, I'm looking for this. I don't want that. And so this is the kind of thing where when you clarify a preference and you make it very clear, then people respond, and that's what happens. So a lot of people, they looked at my rigid lifestyle and be like, I agree, man, you're. Leave me alone. I say, no. You know, like, my, my DMs get blown up.

So 100%, I. I love it. Yeah, you created a movement, so now there's going to be a lot, a.

Lot more people like you.

I believe when you were on Tucker Carlson, you mentioned something to the fact that you lived amongst poverty for two years. What did living amongst poverty teach you? And the reason I asked that question because one of my biggest fears in life is not only not to be successful, but to be homeless. When I drive, you know, I feel horrible. When I see somebody on the streets is homeless, not only do I feel horrible, but I think to myself, wow, that, that, that could be me. So it actually drives me to work a thousand times harder because I am literally terrified. You living amongst extreme poverty for two years, what did that teach you about life and business in general?

Yeah, two things. One, we are our systems, right? So in that society, people grow up and that's the norm, and they don't necessarily have any reason to dream outside of it. If that's just how it is, that's how you grow up. That's what you want to become, obviously. Exactly. And so one is like, it's not that they're incapable of building something different. They just grow up in a thing. And so just like us, they are their systems. And we don't realize you really are one of the same. So you are your governmental policies, you are your societal norms, you are your cultural practices. And then number two is that when you're in that situation, it really is. It creates extreme hardship on the people. So for a person to actually have, if they had a medical condition, how do they get it addressed? There's like no way. Like they're just stuck. So it creates extreme hardship. And so I walked away with that thinking, One, I want to be useful to the human race. Two, I want to be useful. Useful in a way. Not on like a. A1, on one basis, but on a systems level. I want to rebuild the system of society so they serve us to be our best self. So that's what I'm trying to do with don't die is I'm trying to build a new way of being human that approaches our existence from a systems level.

As you know, obviously AI is becoming extremely powerful. Do you think AI is going to replace all doctors at one point in time?

Yeah, I, I typically don't get into the AI prediction game because most everyone who's predicted AI has been wrong. What I do say is I think AI is the most significant thing happening on planet Earth right now. I think it will change society in ways which we can't and anticipate and don't die is entirely about that moment where basically I know that my personal care is increasingly moving to AI where I've had dozens of doctors. And now the fidelity of the data we get is so high and so Frequent that oftentimes we need AI tools to help us interpret the data. So I'd say like even my regimen, it's increasingly AI and I can, I think most of our team says like it's reasonable that doctors will struggle to find value add in the coming years.

So I mentioned before we started the interview that even when I was younger and my parents were going through a divorce, they actually frowned upon my dad for feeding us Coca Cola, you know, cinnamon toast, crunch, things along those lines. At one point in American history, do you think we got to the point where our food started being poisoned by all these ingredients? How did that happen? How do we even get to this point to begin with?

Yeah, I really wish we could actually track it down. I know that for example, when, when Big Tobacco acquired the food companies that they introduced the same kind of process of how do you create an addictive loop? And then you have hyper efficiency and you're trying to drive ingredients at any cost. But it really is. Our food system is toxic. It just is. And like when I, when I meet somebody, the first thing I look at is their skin on their face. It's just like skin is a tell all and I can see their diet in their skin.

Do I have decent skin?

You have great skin. Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. Yeah, thank you. So I, you just. Is it, is it a full accounting? And so basically we can talk about toxins, but I literally see it in skin. Uh, we've done so many loops now, so it really is bad. We test all the foods that I consume. We've done enough testing now to know that food is guilty until proven innocent. Like even like I source my own foods, we manufacture my own foods. Like, I just don't trust getting it out and about. So it really is a challenging problem. I think we just launched a company blueprint quantified to test foods for other people. So if they want to have a favorite snack food, whatever, they can get it tested, we get results back and they can see it. So we're trying to make this so everybody can get access to tested foods within the food.

Do you think it's mainly the sugar that's the issue or is that just one contributing factor?

One. I mean you've got sugar, you've got bad ingredients, you've got toxins, heavy metals, glyphosate. Like you just have a combination of like multiple things, the packaging. So it's just like you have layers and layers of damaging things.

So you're building up two things at once. Your body and you build businesses. What do you think the similarities between building yourself, reversing your age and building a business? What are the similarities between those two?

Yeah, I mean, one is that right now we have a culture of martyrdom. So if you're an entrepreneur or a professional with, if you're very ambitious, the culture says you should sacrifice your health in order to achieve financial success. You should skip sleep, you should not exercise, you should work 20 hours a day, sleep under your desk. That would make you really cool and a social flex. And so our culture really says be a martyr for success. And that's all backwards. And so one is if you want to be an entrepreneur, you want to build. Prioritizing your health as your number one life priority really is the move. It's very counterintuitive because people think it's, if I spend time on my health, I spend less time on my work, that makes me less competitive and others are going to be better. That's totally wrong. If you prioritize your health, you'll be more productive, you'll be more clear headed, you'll be a better person, better entrepreneur, better partner, better whatever. And so I think that really it's one of the same. Building your business is building yourself, building yourself is building your business. They just, there's no difference between the two.

So especially we're watching the documentary, we know that you're very open. What you share the results of your, your, your tests and things along those lines. Was there anything or is there anything that you're very vulnerable about that you.

Don'T like to share to the public?

Because you made your life so openly public? Are there things that you don't want to share and don't want to give away?

Yeah, there's very little. Yeah. I mean, because I think people, we all have a sixth sense for authenticity and so people know if you're getting the real deal or not. And so if I start trying to play games on what I'm gonna share, I just, I lose my connection to my, my people. And so you just kind of have to be it. And once you own it, it just is. And everyone's very, people are very forgiving, you know, like I, I publish some of my biggest mistakes in what we've done. People love it, right? They, they love to see failure, they love to see that. So I just kind of leaned into it and just say like, embrace it.

Do you believe in a heaven or hell or where, where do you think we go when we actually die? Since you're, you're the don't die guy.

Yeah, I think, you know, like, people, whatever. People believe. Great. Do that. Also, let's unify and say nobody wants to die right now. So my entire focus is to try to unify everybody's practical efforts to say, even though we believe in different things in the afterlife, whether we believe or not, we do care about not dying right now. So I'm really trying to unify the human race to say we actually have one thing in common. Nobody wants to die right now. Right. So I don't engage in debates about the afterlife. I try to really avoid fights. I just want to say, you guys go to your fights, come over here, and we'll be together, like, focusing on this bigger objective.

Now, again, back to the documentary. At the height of your career, when I believe you were making the most money, you. You mentioned you were at your unhappiest when you actually sold the company for what you sold it for. I was always curious about this. Even though you were unhappy and you were going through depression, was there a flicker of happiness when you saw that amount of money coming to your bank account for selling your.

For.

For selling your company?

No, it was just straight. I just felt dead inside, you know, like, you. You're so. I was so overwhelmed in depression. And, like, it just. Depression consumes you, so there's nothing that actually makes you happy and not a.

Flicker of light when that. When that transfer came through.

I mean, like, maybe there was a little bit, because I knew that. That I had been building companies for a while. I was trying to make a lot of money so that I could basically be on a different chapter. And I knew if this endeavor didn't work out, it was going to be hard for me to start a new thing. I had three babies at the time, right? Like, I racked up a ton of debt. Um, I knew that starting brand new again was going to be tough, right? So I really wanted to say yes. That was, like, relief in that it happened. I succeeded. It's like it was at least okay for the moment.

Going back to AI because I know you talk a lot about AI. I know we had mentioned something about AI takeover doctors one day. This may be word question as well. Do you think we'll get to the point where people are literally worshiping AI, almost like a God, in a sense. Think we'll get to that point how people are sitting around praying to, you know, chatgpt, chatgpt, guaranteed.

I mean, in the same way that people, many people find AI to be their best friend right now. You know, I talked AI non stop all day, every day, all day long. And so I mean, I, I like, it's really an important part of my life. So humans will do what humans do, right?

Which is right, like find something to grasp on.

It's guaranteed. We will worship AI. They will be our primary partners. They'll be so. Yeah. And of course, like it'll be this expansive scope, but yeah, like that will happen.

That would be very interesting. That would be very interesting. If aliens came down to Earth today a more intelligent species than humans, and they came down to Earth today and they looked around and saw what was going on, what do you think that they would be thinking? And if you had the opportunity to talk to an advanced species more than humans, what do you think you'd ask them?

Yeah, I think they would observe. Why do we not value existence as the highest prize? Right. Right now we value status, wealth and power accumulation as the ultimate goal and we do so at the expense of existence. And they'd be like, that doesn't make any sense. You, you, you're alive, you exist. Why would you endanger that at all in any way, shape or form? Like, like, why would you eat the bag of chips and why would you have nukes, like, and everything in between? It makes no sense. I think they would see us as extremely primitive, short term, short term minded. And I think they'd be like, you guys really have, like you haven't evolved yet as a civilization to see that existence is the prize prior to selling your company.

Let's say for example, you, you didn't do Braintree, some of the prior businesses and you didn't go the route that you're going now. What do you see Brian Johnson, Brian Johnson having done? If you didn't go the route you're going now?

Yeah. Probably would have been Eminem. Oh, you.

Did you rap.

I mean, I, I love the idea of like working in orchestra. I think that, or I think I really would have enjoyed programming computers. Okay. I'd be an engineer.

Right.

My mind is, is structured that way. So I think I really would have enjoyed that. Math. I think I would really have enjoyed. So yeah, there's quite like quite a few paths I think would have been fine.

That's awesome. You know, we discussed briefly that you weren't happy when you were building your business. Now it's an interesting thought. Even though you weren't happy about building your business, you kept growing, you kept building it. What was the driving factor? Because you weren't happy during that time. What was the driving factor of continuing to build your business, even though it.

Was making you unhappy, something inside of me won't stop. Yes, that's still true right now. That's exactly every day. As much as I resist and I'd be like, brian, stop it. There's something inside of me driving, and I don't know what it is.

Do you ever watch the show Billions? Bobby Axelrod? Have you ever seen it? Yes, there's something on that show. And there's a point on the show where somebody said, in order to get to a company that's worth a billion dollars, you, in a sense, have to be a snake. You have to, in a sense, step on people while you're going to the top, because it's almost impossible to get to that amount of money without doing so. I tend to disagree. But what are your thoughts about that? Do you have to be a somewhat of a bad person to reach that level of will?

Yeah, I mean, you've got to be tough. And being tough does not mean being an asshole, and it doesn't also mean doing things that are not respectable. So I've. I think that you. We are the stories that we tell in society, and oftentimes the asshole stories sell a lot better than the other ones. I think there's plenty of examples of people who are exceptional human beings who've had extraordinary success. And so I think the narratives that have gotten the most popularity are probably misguided.

If you were to grow Braintree now instead of back then in 2025, is there anything that you would have done differently about it this time around?

I mean, if I would have stayed in Braintree, I would have gone all in on crypto. We were beginning to. We've implemented Coinbase as a form of a payment to accept blockchain or bitcoin. So I think we were headed in the crypto path. So, yeah, I would have gone all into crypto in 2013, and I'd probably be worth like 150 billion right now.

That's awesome. As an entrepreneur, what mindset does somebody need for not only to take their company from zero to a million, but then a million to 10, and then 10 to, like, a hundred? You. You must have a. You must have to have some sort of significant mind shift to go from zero to a million and then ten to a hundred. What do you think that is?

You need to show that you have the ability to learn as fast as opportunities present themselves in life. And this happens all the time. Founders will start companies, and sometimes the founders can make the jump into growing a bigger scale. And sometimes team members can. But really what it comes down to is a person can learn fast enough. And so really I'd say anyone who's trying to succeed in life, whether it's in a position, their career track or growing with the size of their company, that you just have to focus a lot of your time and effort on rising to the occasion and learning the skills that are necessary at the next level. Which means you've got to be humble. You have to actively seek out advice. You have to find out what your blind spots are. Do not be overconfident. Do not think you have all, all areas covered like you. You really need to explore what you do not know.

Yesterday you actually posted something about how things have power over us.

Right.

If you could give someone just a quick piece of advice to ship that really quickly. Obviously it takes time to get rid of addictions, whether it be drugs or porn or whatever it is, but something that can quickly ship somebody or something having power over us.

Yeah. Agency is a person's highest value attribute. That is you can do what you want to do, you can do what is in your best interest, moment to moment. And so anything that stops you from doing what is your best interest is power over you. So for example, when you eat something that is not good for your body, that is power over you. You're doing it because you crave a certain thing. Yeah, it's bad for you. And so it's actually lessening your agency, lessening your, your life force. The same is true. If you scroll like too long or too much, the same is true. If you watch porn, the same is true. And so society, it's a wrestling match of companies and society is trying to control what you do for their profit incentive. Companies are saying, eat my food, be on my app, watch my content. They're trying to get you to do something when that's not always in your best interest. And so yeah, I really encourage people to take control of their lives, to wrestle power and say, I'm not going to be addicted to do something that is not in my best interest. If they choose to do it like independently, that's a different matter. But when you get caught in that loop and you're really entrapped in their world, that's the danger.

Awesome.