Bryan Johnson On DON'T DIE "Religion", Longevity, AI & More...

If you Travel to the 25th century and you look at this moment through their eyes, they will look back at us and say the early 2000s, 2000s, that's when homo sapiens turned the corner and they realized death was no longer inevitable.

Have you ever been diagnosed with any mental health issues?

Yeah. Depression.

Did you take any medications?

I tried several.

Nothing worked.

Yeah. The single most important thing happening in this part of the galaxy is on this Earth. We're giving birth to superintelligence. It's going to transform our existence in ways we can't even comprehend. It is the biggest thing happening.

Do you ever worry that essentially another form of intelligence that's dictating what you.

Do with your own body, AI is mastering human patterns of thought? It will soon be better at being you than you are.

The algorithm is the Matrix.

You're already in the Matrix.

But shouldn't we fight that?

We should probably do it correctly. It's happening. We're already in it. That don't die is the next major ideology to emerge. The species where existence is the highest virtue. That is the new framework for how we conduct our lives.

I told my team before the blueprint, I think I just watch whatever he does and copy it. And the way. So I don't know anything. We won't talk about any treatments or anything. Yeah, because you've done it a million times. He's a doctor.

Yeah.

I do everything you do. And I know if we'll put down camera.

Probably.

Yes. But I know nothing about it. All I know is that I trust my team. And the reason I follow you is I trust your way of analyzing things like how logical you are about it. And data based.

Yeah.

So I'm like, you know, I like the way he thinks. I trust my team. They're not going to poison me. And I just do everything. I don't know any of the needles I take. Nothing at all. All I know is that you and others. I've always felt okay.

Yeah.

I struggle with a few things like sleep. I'm bad at that and stuff.

And don't. Don't ask him. As hrv, it's really bad.

Yeah. Yeah. It's really like that's not a good thing. Other metrics are pretty good. But it's because I travel and I'm in political world. The politics. Try getting into politics, man. It just drains you out.

I have a 17 month old and my HRV is higher than his.

So. Yeah.

But I think something's just like the way you think, the way you Approach life. You seem like a very chill guy. I just. I don't know.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, definitely. I think it's probably true that like you. Because we mimic those around us. Right. Like we are the energy of our closest friends. And I know friends that are in crypto and politics, they just have this higher frequency, like they just bounce and those that are in, you know, calmer, slower wave worlds. So I agree with you. Like, you kind of mimic and I think politics does have this very high frequency vibe that's just very strung up.

Yeah. I think a lot of it as well has to do with your. Just your life in general, how your brain is wired. So I've always struggled with sleep. I've always overthought things. Like one thing I struggle with, I always do this in interviews. Nothing on my agenda. But one thing I struggle with is I'm always like, I try to see what makes me happy. You're very, you're very stable. You're very balanced. You know, you've got your family. You're a family man. I'm still trying to figure you out.

And he's somewhere in the middle, actually.

He's.

I think at least I've. I've watched a lot of your stuff. As a doctor. Yeah, as a doctor, I had a conversation with a few of my friends. You know, like, we all went to Penn together and this, they. They're not fans. And I, I was just saying this before. I think it's because you're what's next. And everything we've learned doesn't fit. And it's kind of interesting. So, you know, kind of taking a step back on like people and how they're wired. I've always been wired to be like outside of the norm. And I think sounds like you're kind of the same.

Yeah. What's their specific critique?

They think n of 1 studies don't make sense. They think that this is not the Middle Ages.

Yeah.

Like we can do larger studies, stacking additional things on top of each other. Don't tell you which is which one's actually working.

Yeah.

Right. And so. And they think that if you really want to improve longevity a lot, I mean, especially the public health folks, they're like, we should stop car accidents. We should stop. We should get people who wear seat belts and end obesity and you know, depending on personal beliefs. Right. Because I know it's going to be on X. But vaccinated, take antibiotics when you have a bacterial infection. Those are the things that can get you to live longer. Yeah, they find what you're doing to be a little bit in the face of what could help everybody. And I disagree, I disagree very strongly with that.

Why do you think that you get all that hate? One thing, when I saw the hate you got, I'm a very logic database person when it comes to this and everything. And I was always trying to understand, is it people just scared of what you're talking about. They cannot fathom the concept of living forever. Like, he wants to die comfortably. I want to live forever. I know it's. I know it's low likelihood, but it's still enough to chase it. Why do you think you're getting all that hate?

Yeah, I mean, Ashley Vance, who did this, so he did the Elon Musk biography, then he wrote this piece in Bloomberg which blew this whole thing up. And he made a comment to me that he has never in his entire life written about something that has so much energy. Like it just sits on this insatiable store that no matter where you go, everybody has an opinion of Brian Johnson. It's just like it's a situation where you can't be in the middle. You've got some strong opinion about some vector. And initially I didn't anticipate that there was this gigantic store of energy. But really it hits people at the most consequential areas of their life. So if you're a doctor, right, you're going to say, like, I understand the world through RCTs, like this n equals one doesn't make sense. You have to do these large trials and we have to look at these population level data and so they apply their argument to someone else is like living forever scares me because all my friends are going to die and other people are like, you can't. Like everyone finds their angle. It challenges their existential real understanding of reality or their profession or their habits or their friend culture or like something. But it hits at something sacred in their world and they feel like they have to defend it, like to the death. Because I'm basically saying if these ideas are right, some of these ideas we live by are wrong. Which means death to old ideas and habits and customs. And that's why people have to. They almost feel like they are shortened of breath. They have to knock back really hard. So it does. It creates a really strong response question.

For you on that. In the middle Ages, leeches were normal.

Yeah, right.

We bloodlet and we did all of that. And at that time, I'm sure those doctors felt real good about themselves.

Yeah.

What is the medical leeching today, like, what is it in this current world? Because there's a lot of stuff that we do that may or may not be backed by evidence. Marty Macri's come out and talk about that.

Exactly. Yeah. I'm really making one simple observation in everything I do. I'm saying that if you travel to the 25th century, so a few hundred years from now and you look at this moment through their eyes, they will look back at us and say the early 2000 and twenties, 2000-30s, that's when homo sapiens turned the corner and they realized death was no longer inevitable, that existence was the highest virtue, that they were giving birth to superintelligence. That's when you transition as a species from debauchery and YOLO and accepting death to moving to become a new species. That's it. That's my only observation of reality. What?

But, so I did a video yesterday, I don't know if you saw it, just a quick live. And I said, you know, I travel the world. I usually do political interviews, world leaders and all that, but then I'm, I'm here, you know, chatting to you and chatting to Vinod and others about AI and longevity, which I think are the two most important things facing society.

Yeah.

Everyone cares about which territory this country should take or who has more money. But AI, as big of a risk it is to humanity, still doesn't get the amount of hate that longevity gets.

Yes.

Which is again, mind boggling to me concerning longevity is if you talk to anybody, what's more exciting, you being able to live another hundred years, if not forever, at least have the option of when to die or if to die versus a form of intelligence, a new form of intelligence, which is terrifying. Some outcomes are terrifying. Longevity is obviously, you're an example of how much more hate it gets. Again, I want to kind of touch on that a bit further. Why is that fee coming out? And then how could we change that? Because I think if you don't get people adopting what you're doing, we're not going to have much progress.

Yeah, I'll. Yes. And your question with like a furtherance of the contemplation and without an answer, but I would say that the argument. So I'm making the same argument you just did, which I'm saying the single most important thing happening in this part of the galaxy is on this Earth. We're giving birth to superintelligence. It's going to transform our existence in ways we can't even comprehend. It is the Biggest thing happening.

Like what? Can you elaborate on that?

I mean, so if you, if you.

Where do you see us in 50 years time? Because no one has different theories.

No one knows.

Because this is the thing. I, so I, I've interviewed like Aravind Srinivas from Perplexity and other folks on the AI side, and I'm, I'm definitely skeptical because, like, my academic research was in AI and I just think that we're maybe overblowing that a little bit. You don't think so?

I guess because you're an entrepreneur, before.

All of this, you actually built companies. And so don't you think we're overblowing.

It a little bit? So I think if you just take the general premise that we can now build intelligence methodically and we can scale it methodically. We don't know what the scaling laws are. We don't know right at what rate it's gonna grow, if it's going to plateau, when it's going to plateau. But over some duration of time, the fact that we can continually build intelligence, it seems to me a reasonable bet that this intelligence will continue to grow. It will outstrip our abilities in all ways. It will know more than we know. It will be better at discovering than we know. So we've built a form of intelligence that is transcending us. We don't know by how much, we don't know when. But I would still say that given that context, still, no matter where it goes, it has exceeded us as a species. So you can debate the nuances of this and that, but what I'm trying to say is, like, generally speaking, what's more important, you know, like some, some debate over some social norm that society is fighting about, or the fact that we're giving birth to superintelligence like that we're exceeding ourselves as species? To me, it's like very obvious. It is the most important thing happening. And then the second is that no human can say anything intelligent about what's going to happen. No one knows. And so we're in this total state of unknowing. And then you hear experts, like, everyone's like piping off with their own ideas. They don't know. They have no, they can't predict this kind of st stuff. And so what I'm saying is, in this moment when this whole phenomenon is happening and we don't know what is the most logical and reasonable thing we can do, we lock in on, the only thing we can say with confidence is none of us want to die right now that is literally the only thing we know you've changed.

You added right now to make it more relatable to people.

I've always said right now it's just like, don't die sticks. But it's always right now because I don't pitch going living forever. I pitched don't die right now because what I'm trying to say is AI alignment follows, like AI alignment is the most important thing you give birth to AI. What do you do? Do use it for war, do use it for money making. And so what I'm saying is don't die right now is the singular thing that all intelligence agrees upon.

But I think I know why people get upset about it. Because you're challenging God.

Yes, that.

And plus, that's really. No, but even the medical establishment, as a doc, like, you're challenging my medical.

Right.

Like there's always. Everybody has something that they're like, yes. What is the thing that I like when I'm taking a tumor out of someone's body, I don't think to myself, like, I'm not thinking about longevity, I'm thinking about saving their life. It's like you're like kind of you're going to the root of all of it, which is, of course, people don't want to die.

Yes, exactly.

But you are challenging the role of external control. And you're saying the locus of control is all internal, that we get to choose whether we die or not. And a lot of people don't have that choice.

Exactly.

So what do you say to those people? I mean, it's like, like, for example, you were Mormon. You were very clear about it in the movie. And just in general, you were very clear about it. Like, have you ever thought to yourself that maybe you're just replacing Mormonism with the don't die movement and building your own version?

I mean, there's definitely a bridge, right? Where my upbringing said, here is the story of reality. If you play by these rules of reality, you get this prize, right? Like the whole thing's figured out. Just play by the rules. And so I, when I left that religion, I was left with a. Basically a vacancy. Like, what. How do I understand reality? Like, what is even going on? And so I've been trying to answer that really fundamental question. Almost like Albert Camus, the French philosopher, like, went to the edge. But I guess if you, if you follow my thoughts, they get increasingly upsetting for many people. Like, other people get very excited. Like, basically, if you get the first layer where I say it's really important to go to bed on time. Right. Every night, have your bedtime, go to bed on time. People will be like, bro, you're not living life, you need to live life. You need to be up with your friends. Right? So they'll get upset with me on that line of reading. Then I go to the next layer and I say, okay, so also in the top of that, like we're giving birth to super intelligence and we're trying to figure out what we know and don't know and how we actually cooperate. People will get really upset with that. The next layer down, it goes like five layers down. Here's the next layer for you. I'm saying that it is not wise for us as a species to, to trust our minds as much as we do right now. And so.

Yes, but that, that's for me just sounds so logical. Like our minds has done. How many stupid decisions have you taken? How many stupid decisions have people taken? Like, holy shit, what is he doing?

I'm in politics.

I see the impact of these stupid decisions on the world.

But then what, what, what will take over? Are we going to trust AI to make decisions for us?

So what I've been doing is I basically said a couple years ago, I said that it would be much better for me to let my body make decisions and not my mind. Now I realize if you, if you look at this from a technical perspective, bind a mind about the same exact thing. Like in a colloquial speak. Okay, so like if I, if I'm walking to work and I pass at a bakery and I smell freshly baked croissants, but I don't want to eat a croissant is my best version of myself. And I'm like, honestly, that's following your mind. Yeah.

If you have a system that says.

Don'T eat a croissant, but hold on.

That'S following the system.

See, this is the thing. So I was going to ask you a bunch of questions around social. The only long term study that the medical establishment has done has shown that social connection and social strong deep relationships increase your health span. The study at Harvard, I'm sure you've read it.

Yeah, I have.

You know, social connection is me sitting down with my wife and sharing a croissant.

Yeah. So yeah, so you, you certainly can sit down with your wife.

Why do you have to have a croissant?

Exactly.

The stupidest elements, like sit with your wife, enjoy that.

Because.

But when we were in college.

But that's following your brand. Like you enjoy the croissant but the cool thing is sitting with your wife.

Yeah, but I think the point is sharing things together sometimes can be. And so the point that I'm trying to make is share of broccoli.

Sure.

I'm sure that won't go the same way. But my point is more, you know, even when I look at your life, at least with public.

Yeah, right.

Social connection is there because you're doing all of these events. But like. And you know, we got the chance to meet, Thomas and I.

Such a cool kid.

It was the coolest experience. He's awesome.

He great.

Is he here?

But, you know, the social connection that comes from love and being in a loving relationship, it seems like you're still kind of in search for that.

So let me explain this. I hear what you're saying. Okay. So let's just. Let's remove for a minute the ideas of social reality of the words we just assembled. Let's just say you are a collection of 35 trillion cells. Okay. You're a collection of 35 trillion cells. Your wife is a collection of 35 trillion cells. You two sit down and have some kind of interaction, which is a social interaction.

Right.

You're producing a certain biochemical state based upon that interaction. Certain chemicals are flowing based upon that. You're expressing certain methylation patterns. You have certain neurotransmitters. Like you have a biochemical reaction to social interactions. You introduce the croissant. The croissant goes into the 35 trillion cells. It spikes blood glucose. It changes the expression of. Right. So it has this metabolic effect that is actually bad for your body. So what I'm just saying is if you take away the storytelling of society, what we've done is we've wrapped death in these pretty stories that justify the behaviors. But if you look at it from a pure biological perspective, it's death.

Except. Except it might not be because your mind and your body are actually connected. You are not just an amalgamation of millions of trillions of cells. And ultimately, like, the thing that I'd be very interested is and is there's a lot of things that we can't measure. You're focusing on what we can measure. And, you know, you've ran a business. I run a business.

Yeah.

You know, when you. You can look at the metrics of each department and they look great, but the business is shit.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Like, how do you. And your mind. Body. We know, for example, the placebo effect is real people. Literally.

Yeah.

If they believe that they're beating the cancer even Though the drug is not even chemotherapeutic, it's a sugar pill. They beat, the tumors evaporate. So are you telling me that that's nothing like that? You don't believe in any of that?

So what I'm saying is that in this conversation. So what I'm trying to establish is there's the laws of physics and there's the way biology behaves. And if we just separate those things from human storytelling, you can actually measure death, you can measure entropy, you can measure how your body decays. And then you can isolate and say, if you have excessive sugar, here's what happens biochemically in the body. And if you do the following things. And so what I'm saying is if you just take it from an absolute pure biology and physics perspective.

I got it.

What things cause death? Then you can say, great, now we have baseline stuff. Now let's rebuild human custom around things that promote life.

Got it.

And so it says, what I'm saying is people attack this at a cultural layer. And what I'm saying is you want a medical, physics, biology based perspective. Because it's not like I can only socially have enjoyment if it's from a croissant. Right? Like you can do so many things that actually encourage more life. And that's what people get tripped on, is they, they hit me at the social, cultural layer. And I'm saying, this is a physics and biology project. So back to the body. What I was trying to say is I started four years ago to say, okay, if I measure every organ in my body, I get like thousands of data points and I say, what is my body saying? And then can we take that data and map it to lifestyles, food, exercise and therapies that increase my lifespan, health span. We're going to let the system just run like in, in an autonomous form. And I'm not going to superimpose onto this data. Like, here's my pretty picture of reality. I'm going to let my, my biological system run with data and science in a closed loop fashion. And that's why I'm saying, like, my mind is a rascal. My mind's gonna be like, just have the cookie today. Like, you deserve it. Like, you've had a long day, you're stressed out. Like, honestly, it's going to make you feel better and you're going to be happier from it. Like, I just, I try to remove those stories from the inputs.

So a couple of things. One is more personal because I've been living a similar lifestyle for many years. Not to your extent, obviously. You know, sometimes I have that issue where, you know, longevity does not add up to your personal life. You know, being able to go out, being able to enjoy nightlife, being able to, you know, I like adrenaline. I like to do things to get my adrenaline going. And I know you face loneliness, especially when you're. When your son left, do you have those struggles? We have to choose one or the other.

Definitely, yes. And I guess what I've experienced in a transition is that. So I went to Paris Hilton's house on Tuesday night. She had a dinner, I went there and I got home at midnight. So very rare occurrence because I go to bed very regularly at 8:30pm So I was like three and a half hours past my bedtime. I woke up the next morning with this throbbing headache. The entire day I just felt down, depressed.

How many hours did you sleep?

Six and a half. So I still got pretty good sleep.

Not bad.

But.

No, no, but that's.

But if you miss, if you miss your sleep, what was your hrv? It was. No, actually HRV was actually good. Yeah, it's like.

Oh, because that's like you're still on your basal hrv, essentially.

Yeah. So it's still okay, but like it just like shift you. When you miss your first sleep window, you miss the majority of your deep. So you can't just like go to bed late and make up. You actually miss your circadian rhythm. So even though that happened because my sleep is so good, it pummeled my. My understanding of reality. I felt more depressed, I was more negative. I felt like the world was heavier than it was instead of. I had this really robust can do attitude. I felt beat down and I just. One night of bad sleep now, like I've had the experience. I, I have kids, I've had those experiences. Where you at? You know, one night you get two hours of sleep. But I guess what I'm saying is I, I now know from experience those things don't those things cause me sadness, like eating a donut or pizza or staying up late or drinking or. They just wreck me. And so I no longer have a positive association. They make me feel sad. And so I've moved to other things. Like we have morning rave dance parties. Right. My son and I do different things. So I get the adrenaline, I get the excitement.

Morning rave parties, you do that? Yeah. How? Honestly. But you have an advantage over others. Doing your lifestyle. If someone wants to go to your extreme, is that you do have a big audience, you have a Big community that kind of gives you purpose, gives you people around you. But if you didn't have that, it seems like a very tough life, very lonely life.

So this is the thing. I. I know, I hear what you're saying, and I would invite you to question if the assumptions you're making are correct or if you've just not experienced this. People come at this so hard, they assume they've got it cornered and I'm in the wrong. So I have tremendous, tremendously good health. All my biomarkers show it, but yet I'm on the stand being accused by the prosecutor of being guilty of not being happy.

I genuinely, genuinely happy.

All right, let's talk about that. A little bit more happiness, because this is the question that everybody's interested in. And I don't know how many doctors have interrogated you on it yet. I'm sure many. But, you know, when you say happiness, you know, the, the. It means different things to different people, you know? Before all of this, have you ever. Had you ever been diagnosed. And again, this. You don't have to answer this. Had you ever been diagnosed with any mental health issues?

Yeah. Depression for a decade.

Depression for a decade. Did you take any medications for the.

I tried several.

Several?

Yeah.

Nothing worked.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, it's. It's really hard because we have blunt instruments.

Exactly. I tried TDCs, TMS, antidepressants. I tried. I mean, I tried everything I could try. I mean, I was a layperson trying to find it. I did my best, though, on the therapies I could find.

Did you ever feel like, through that depression, you ever had moments where you felt like things were. No.

Absolutely.

Severe depression.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then you found, at least from what I've seen, that it was this disconnect between you and your faith that may have. Was that around the same time, was.

That after I was in a bad relationship, I had bad health, I was in a religion, I wanted to leave, I wasn't getting good sleep, my diet was awful, I was obese. Right. Like, all those factors were off and it just created this crushing environment.

And I don't care what any of the medical people say. But today, for. I bet you within the next 24 months, GLP1s will be approved for depression and anxiety. Surprise. Obesity was always the problem. Right. I mean, like, surprise. I think we're seeing everything is connected to that. So I agree in the core premise. But then the next sort of obvious question is if you now know that your body is connected to your mind and is Actually driving that. And you have to separate your body from your mind. How do you prevent yourself from going down? What a natural route would be like something closer to OCD or getting over hyper focused on this and focusing on the wrong thing. Like how do you prevent that? Because right now, you know, some could say that this is maybe an obsession, not a compulsion. But that's definitely the obsession part.

Yeah. I mean, so like I would ask like, was, you know, is LeBron James obsessed about basketball? Should we be concerned?

Yeah. Obsessed about the right thing is not.

Is Ronaldo, is he like, should we intervene? Is he too obsessed about soccer? Yeah.

I mean it's 100 and when I was, when I was in training, I was upset. Obsessed about operating right. Like it's like literally like high achieving people.

Yeah. This is like, this is, what I'm saying is like the, that the criticisms people level at me is that you're too good. It's just like, it's, it's just, it's like.

That's funny.

It's so funny. We actually break it down. Right. I've never actually. So I would describe my happiness on through a few vectors. Like one is I live a really intense life, right? Like I've got an intense amount of haters coming at me from every angle. And it's not just haters. It's like people spreading misinformation. It's like the biggest media publications in the world doing takedown pieces on me.

I had a hit piece an hour ago on me last week, the Guardians. I've seen yours. I actually did a tweet on it. It's one of the stupidest hit pieces I've seen.

Yeah, thank you for that.

Yeah, it was the New York Times, I think. Yeah, they're doing, they're doing one on me, I think next week. Yeah, I contacted him yesterday.

Who's the reporter?

I don't know. Who is she?

Yeah, yeah. If you've anyone who knows somebody who's been on the other side of a New York Times hippie's, they literally fucking make shit up.

It is ridiculous.

It's crazy what they write, by the.

Way, I have to say this. I don't know how they get away with it.

It's nuts. It is so crazy. I like.

No, they're not getting away with it. They're losing trust.

Yeah, but dude, but you know what? There are people out there right now that think very friendly of you, like, less confirmation bias. I'm gonna put my wife out there. She thinks because, you know, especially women you know, this, that, that article really hurt because they. It's like they go after the thing that will make you look the worst.

That has nothing to do with the.

That has nothing to do with your mission. And clearly there's two sides. There's three sides to every story. And I think it just seems like they're. They're trying to paint a narrative that really didn't hurt, I think.

Yeah, I agree.

I don't know if you agree.

I was surprised when you told me, I think your son or you told me earlier today that it hurt your brand. I don't get how. I just. It just doesn't make sense. But continue what you were saying earlier.

Yeah. So, like, so the. The intensity of my life is rigorous, right? And so I guess the question is, how can I. Like, what is my ability to withstand those attacks, right? Do I feel smothered by them? Do I feel beaten down? Do I feel like I can come back? Can I be cheerful of my teammates? Can I get good sleep? And so when the New York Times post this article, I was basically, like, taunting them, like, my sleep was perfect, right? I'm trying to say, like, it's bullshit. You fucking made shit up, right? I realize some people in the world are going to fall for this. That's like the game, I'm okay. And so I was basically trying to flex. I have tremendous emotional and psychological resilience. Like, I'm fine. I'm going to work through this. People are going to get to forget your shitty article. I'm going to bounce back. I'm going to prove to you I'm not that at all. So, like, if I wasn't sleeping well, if I had a poor diet, I might have a very different reaction, right? I might act out, I might really get beat down. And, and. But like, it's.

It's incredible because what you're saying is physical resilience gives you emotional stability, which I think the. The world can actually use a little bit of it right now.

Like. Like how many of the world's problems are the fact that we don't sleep? Most probably.

I do want to go back to something you said earlier. Creating the systems, which I agree with, and then you start to see a bit of an overlap here. Those systems, you know, you questioned it a bit. You know, when you start moving away from what your brain tells you to do into a system you've built, eventually that system goes into AI, and AI becomes your system. And as we move into a world of AGI, do you ever worry that Essentially another form of intelligence is dictating what you do with your own body. Does that concern you?

So I mean my, my map, my read of the situation with this is that AI is mastering human patterns of thought. It's like it's, it's trained on the corpus of language, right. And it's getting more data from more sensors. But basically it's why it can autocomplete an email, it can autocomplete a text increasing, like it knows your pattern and it can predict. This is the information theory. And so you just simply map this out over a certain duration of time. At what point in time will it be able to auto complete the thought you have before you complete it? And then at what point in time will it autocomplete that thought in a better way than, than you can complete? And I'm saying that that's not very far away because our patterns are very like we're major, most of us are NPCs, like 99% of the time. We live in this very predictable fashion. We repeat the same patterns. So my read is AI is doing a great job emulating and matching our patterns. It will soon exceed our patterns, which means it will soon be better at being you than you are.

Okay, expand on that a bit further. How far do you think that could go? How far do you think when, when, when an artificial intelligence that knows you better than you know yourself is better than dictating what you should do, than your brain? And then you start seeing those things emerge. I think you've got a company. What's your other company?

Colonel.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Do you think where Colonel will be in 10, 15 years? I'm sure there's things that cross your mind. I'm not sure if you've talked about it publicly.

So that's. Yeah. So I built this brain of this company I started in 2016 with this idea in mind that AI will rebuild your model of a human, like everything you know and your proclivities and your habits and your beliefs. And it will be able to autocomplete you in all vectors. And that's like in this interview, an AI of you could show up and interview me.

I'm already working on it.

Right, yeah, he's on. Exactly. So like we are, like we're actually embracing that. Right. Like you're doing it, a lot of people are doing it. And it's not, you've seen the examples. It's not incomprehensible that they legit. Could be you in a very high fidelity fashion. But when that happens, then the question is, what do we become as a species? And so I start, I built this brain interface. It's the world's first mass market neuroimaging device. Took us seven years to build. We did full stack, very, very hard to do. And it reads out brain data real time. And then we were pairing that with AI to say, like, basically, what happens when you build a closed loop system with AI? So what if I could sit in front of a screen and have something in my ears and then some haptics on and I could just say, all right, AI, I'm going to sleep right now. Help me go to sleep. And let's say AI is measuring, like my hrv. It's measuring my temperature, it's measuring my pupil dilation, and it basically it uses images and sounds and haptic feedback to somehow get my body. And it runs an algorithm. I'm not sure what it's doing, but it's just like a sleep prep. Or maybe it's like, I'm about to go on a podcast. Can you get me in the right state of mind to have this conversation? And so you basically pair AI with the human. So these are like speculative ideas. But the question was, if you give an AI a system to speak to the body with high fidelity and a real time, you don't even have to tell the body what it's doing. Just like run the algo and give it.

You know, you see where that ends up.

Right, exactly. Like, essentially the AI is making decisions for you, which I'm not saying is a bad thing.

No, no, it's a matrix.

It's the unknown. It's the.

It's the. It's the freaking matrix.

This is what's happening now. You, you pull up your phone, scroll. That's what's happening.

The algorithm is the matrix.

It mean, like, we're already in it. Like, what's any different than going to Netflix and picking. You're already in the matrix.

Like, you're like, shouldn't we fight that?

I mean, like, it's where. I mean, like, we should probably do it correctly. But it's. It's happening. We're already in it. And what's being run is those algorithms are being run not for your benefit, but for their profit.

Like, what's.

What's the value of living forever when AI is making all your decisions?

Oh, I. What's.

What's the value? So why, like, literally about your decisions?

Hold on. Would you want to live longer today? AI is already making a lot of the decisions for you already today?

No, no. But I get to look this way and I get to look that way. I get to have this con. You know, any smart AI would tell me that just go, continue practice being a surgeon. This is like, you know, like it's literally we have free will. This is the beauty of, is that.

Could, could AI lead to this.

So this is. So we have, I hold, I host these don't die dinners here at the house. We basically go through a two hour routine and we address this.

What's the, what's the tldr? I know you can't talk about too many things that have happened there, so.

I won't, I'm not going to spoil it because it really is a great experience. But what I'll tell you is your. I'm going to come through with, let me say this. So this is funny. So I, I've done, I don't know, a ton of these. And I will tell you that with 99% predictability, I know what people are going to say. It doesn't matter who the group is. I'm serious. So much so I wrote, I wrote a 36 page document with characters and I wrote down who would speak when, who their archetype is, what they would say. Like for example, I opened up this thought experiment every single time and everyone dances around this really social scene where one person's all jump out in front and like express my opinion immediately. There's another person that fast follows. Like I agree with that because like they've got permission, right? And then the third answer, if someone's like, this is my chance, I'm a contrarian, they pop in. And so like every single time, these patterns follow them throughout. So your argument is a like 99.9% predictable argument of what comes up in this conversation around AI and don't die. So I'll tell you, this is the thing what you're experiencing is you're saying, I perceive myself to be an independent free will being and if that part of my identity is compromised, I don't understand what existence means. Is that fair? Yeah. So this idea has challenged a core belief of your identity.

Because I do crazy shit. Like I've done crazy stuff. We're sitting here right now.

Yeah, right.

Like this is. This does not fit a pattern.

Exactly. And so what I'm saying is it strikes you to a degree where it makes reality incomprehensible. You're like, it so defies your perceptions of your free will and your ability to act. And if that's not true, then it breaks your models of reality. And this is why, going back to the point, why people would respond so strongly to what I'm doing, it breaks their models of reality. And in doing that, their cultural norms, their professional norms, their existential norms, and they just don't know what to do. But kind of your reaction is like you hit back with some power, right? Like, this makes me feel uncomfortable and I want to tell you about it. And so I'm just saying it's like a very natural process that we with AI, it's inviting us to rethink every element of our existence, including this idea that we're a free will species making independent choices. Like it is rocking our identity to the absolute core. But the thing is, nobody's talking about this. People are talking about like, do we have jobs? You know, is AI going to go rogue? But this bigger thing's going on, which is our identities are at risk. We no longer understand who we are as a species or individually. I mean, that's what I'm trying to get at.

Listening to you, it sounds so deterministic. It sounds like you were all in some simulation. I know Elon believes that. Other folks believe that. You clearly don't believe that.

I am saying I don't express a belief. I'm just saying the reality is AI is a pattern matching machine. It is becoming very good at doing these patterns. And over time it's going to become as good or better at being you than you are. Which then raises an open question for you. What do we do then? And so I'm just trying to raise the question without diagnosing it. And I'm just saying to somebody, but.

You can't diagnose, you can't, you can't raise the question without giving us your thoughts.

So, and so I'm saying that in this moment, we don't know what's going to happen. Like, we can't, we can't predict.

There's no way.

Therefore. Therefore the only logical thing we can all agree upon is none of us want to die right now. So that means, what this means is it doesn't make sense anymore to kill each other or go to war. It doesn't make sense anymore to inhale death or eat death. What I'm saying is it makes sense for a new philosophy of existence to emerge. That don't die is the next major ideology to emerge. The species where existence is the highest virtue. That is the new framework for how we conduct our lives.

Would you say there's another way of living forever. And that's through, you know, ignoring your body to an extent, letting it live longer to get to a level where you can upload your consciousness digitally and that could be the way we end up living forever. Have you thought about that?

I mean, possibly. This is again is like a typical, like baited question for a human because humans acquire status based upon providing answers of knowing.

Yeah, right.

And I want to clearly call out, no human understands how to upload mindsets. So I can string words together and like, it'd be cool or interesting or I think whatever, it doesn't matter. It has zero value information, no one knows. Therefore I would bring it back to what I'm trying to provide in life is almost every human would take the bait. I think the following thing about a mind uploading and trying to flex their ability to articulate the problem. What I'm trying to provide is a counterexample to say it's more intelligent to be aware that you actually don't know. Unless you've done rigorous modeling, you've done the mappings of the mind and how you get each neuron and what that would require for neuron coverage and how you'd actually get into a machine and how many connections into would be like. Unless you have that kind of model, you don't know. And so I guess what I'm trying to say is like, it's. There's a new form of intelligence that's emerging which is in the area of explicitly saying I don't know.

One more question on this. First, you know the. I don't know, accepting the fact. So whenever someone asks me if I'm religious, my answer is there a God? I just said to them, I don't know. And they, for them, it's just, they struggle to understand. What do you mean you don't know? You must have some assumption of what could be there. And I genuinely have none because I just don't know. And I. It's difficult to accept. And I've had this conversation with people very close to me. It's difficult to accept that you just don't know. And I'm sure you know, you can relate to this.

But.

But when it comes to things like AI, I think it's very important, especially for you and the business that you have is that I'm sure there's some predictions or potential theories that you have that you have to prepare for. You know, different paths, like where you top. You want to distort your 1 somewhere in the middle.

Where would.

Because I Had a whole discussion with Vinod yesterday about, you know, the future of AI and AGI. So where do you see the world in, let's say, 20 years, 30, 40 years time? Where do you see civilization if we do get to a level through AI, that we can extend our life another hundred years, potentially forever?

Yeah.

And we've got another form of intelligence with us. What are different potential outcomes?

Yeah. I would use a thought experiment and say that I would pattern match this to asking that question to Homo erectus a million years ago. So at the time, the ax was like the most innovative thing around. And if you were to pose the question, like, tell me about the future of the species, like, tell me why it's exciting to imagine our evolved potential Homo erectus would have in their mind models of foraging and war and like, you know, their local habitat. They wouldn't be able to tell you this new framework of microscopic objects a million years ago.

I'm talking about 20, 30 years from today.

And I'm saying that in 20 to 30 years, maybe the equivalent of a million years.

That's the thing that's fascinating. Exactly.

So in that case, like the, the only thing Homo erectus could respond to. Right. The only, if they were intelligent, they would say, I don't know. Right. Like, I, I actually don't have the models in my mind. Like there's, there's probably things I don't understand. Right. So they would be correct. They would be correct in saying, like, there's a microscopic world of bacteria, there's a, a huge electromagnetic spectra, there's going to be inventions like these glowing objects that allow us to talk to people in real time. There's going to be these, these quantum computers. Right. And so what I'm saying is, to me, the most likely scenario is that we haven't discovered all things, that there's more things to be discovered, and that over a 20 to 30 year timeframe we're going to discover new things that are going to change our models of the world so drastically that we are basically Homo erectus in this moment, that it's a possibility that we are that primitive and that the only intelligent thing we could say right now is we have no idea. But the risk that the blind spot we have is we, we have this idea that we're masters of the universe, having figured out, you know, we've, we've discovered particles and we've, we've created particle colliders and we've gone to the moon. And so we imagine we're at this apex of Intelligence, and therefore it gives us the ability to model. And I'm saying that on the sphere of knowing and unknowing, we may have discovered a fraction of what can be known. And so to me, it comes back to this, in, to this invitation to express extreme humility that we may not know what's coming. Therefore, I'm go back to so. Therefore, the only thing I know is I just don't want to die right now. And I keep on coming back that every single time that everyone. The conversations I hear in society are running the same loop.

Same loop all the time.

Yeah.

What's going to happen in 20, 30 years? What's going to be like, you have experts popping off, like, this idea and that idea. Everyone's like, whose predictions have been right. And as we look back through history.

If you take AI out of the picture, because that changes everything. The speed of evolution, if you just look at putting AI aside, if you look at humans, the ability of humans to live forever, how would that alone change society? Have you thought about that?

Yeah. So I, I don't. Because living for tomorrow and living forever are identical ideas. So when you think about living forever, it's almost like a concept of quantum mechanics. It's counterintuitive. For our brains understand many components of quantum mechanics. And the same thing was living forever. It breaks the human brain. We can't understand it. But what you do understand is. So if you have. You have things going on tomorrow, I presume, and you're probably excited about those things happening, then when tomorrow comes, you probably have things going on the next day that are exciting. So we understand reality by living through tomorrow. But you have to just say, at what point are you going to arrive at tomorrow? Where you're like, I'm done. I'm good. Like, every night. Somehow there's always one more day ahead of us that we want to do. So I want to say that we shouldn't talk about living forever. It's a concept we can't understand. Therefore, we just want to live for tomorrow.

Well, but the living for tomorrow is. It really hits because, again, you have a son. I have a young son right now. He's 17 months. And I think to myself, I can't wait till he goes to school. I can't wait till he goes to college. I can't wait. Or maybe not anymore. Who knows what happens to that? But I can't wait till he gets married, he has his own kids. But then you keep going down that road. And I told Mario my greatest fear in life Is that I will live longer than my son. That it is literally the scariest shit that could ever happen to a parent. I think you could probably relate.

Do you relate? Because for me, I don't have kids, so it's hard for me to relate. Would you relate to that statement before.

You ask me, doesn't that sound incredibly awful?

Does that worry you at all?

I'm okay with it. Yeah. So, like, people bring up this argument. They say, I don't want to live forever because I'll get bored or my family's going to die or my kids are going to die or my friends are going to die. You don't relate to that. But we have people die around us all the time.

All the time.

It happens. And so the argument doesn't stand up. Like, we. Things happen. We evolve and we move on. Like, we always move on. And so there's nothing that stops a human.

That there's no fear?

No. Like, that's just life.

So what do you fear?

I don't, like, experience fear. Like, it's not something that I relate with.

Do you do. When you travel, do you have security? I was asking Carlos, I think, earlier, do you travel with security, considering how much attention you have now?

I haven't. At our recent events, I did have security, but not like India or.

I know you had a trip to India recently or go to Europe or the.

We haven't. No.

Sorry. I just want to go back to the fear thing. It's weird to not have fear. You realize that, right? Yeah, it's a little bit like, I don't. I'm not diagnosing. I'm just saying, like, it's a little bit unusual.

Yeah.

To not have anything that. You cannot name one thing. You're afraid of me.

So the thing is, you're not afraid.

Of, like, a nuclear war happening. You're not afraid of, like. It's like, it feels like you have like a. You know, people always say that the. The most successful people have tremendous internal locus of control.

Yeah.

I actually think, like, you have a weird sort of like, I'm going to control what I control, and then everything else is. I don't know.

Yeah.

And it's like this really weird. Like, it's kind of freaking me out a little, where I'm just sitting here being like. So you're not afraid of any of that stuff?

No, because everything is always okay.

What do you mean?

Like, is there. Is there anything in your life? I'm sure you've both suffered tragedy in your life.

Of course yeah.

Is it okay?

I mean, it sucks.

Exactly. Is it okay?

It's okay for us, but I'm sure other people would disagree. Someone that's been.

Some people never.

Ptsd. Yeah.

Yes. If you watch an entire family get, you know, hung up.

I've been. Oh, I've been to Rwanda, and there was a genocide there just 20, 30 years ago. And they're not okay till today. So that. I think I'll let you finish your point. But there's a lot of people that are not okay like we are.

Yeah. So it's not to say that tragedy is not bad. It's not to say that tragedy doesn't cause harm. It's not to say that tragedy doesn't require time to recover.

Right.

But on certain timescales, everything is always okay. Like a hundred years, five years, we figure it out. When I say okay, eventually we actually reconcile reality. Like, terrible things have happened. War has happened. Like, war is awful. Nuclear warfare is awful. Genocides are awful. Disease is awful. All those things are terrible. But what I'm saying is, like, in that terribleness, like, somehow we are. Like, we exist and we, like, move in the future.

Science says otherwise. Right. There's generational trauma. Like, we know. There's epigenetic markers that get sent from generation to generation to generation. I know you probably.

Yeah, sure. So it's not. It's not the absence of trauma. I'm just saying that, like, I can't control those things.

Do you have at least a bunker, for example?

No, I don't. Well, that's.

That's crazy.

Do you realize how. Do you see the contradiction or.

No. So there's. Go ahead.

No, no. I was going to ask you what. You got to probably ask it, like, why the hell would. Like, you're trying to live forever, that you don't plan for the unknown that may happen.

Yeah. So what's the. What's the bunker scenario?

Nuclear war.

Okay, so what seems more and more likely. Okay, so if nuclear war. Like what? So, like a nuke goes off in San Francisco and I want to do fallout protection.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Imagine tomorrow he gets a bunker.

I bet you he will now.

But definitely. I don't spend a lot of resources on tell risk. Like nuclear warfare. Like, if there's a nuke going off in San Francisco. We've got pretty big problems around the world that are going to happen.

Do you want to be alive to face those problems?

Of course. I accept life at all points. Yeah. But I could certainly, you know, it'd probably take Like a couple million dollars to have a bunker. But I'd have to, like, be in this area. I'd have to know it went off, not be killed by it. I'd have to make sure I'm situated in the bunker property. Like, there's a bunch of steps to do that. And then if I just then say, statistically, what's the higher likelihood of me of death? It's driving in my car down the street. So if you just again, just use pure stats and not emotion, like, I'm much better off driving safely than I am doing well.

Why can't you do both? Like, I worry about both.

Sure. But once you go down that, Once you go on that path and you start, like, where do you draw the line? And so what I'm trying to say is, like, I can certainly allocate my efforts towards a bunker. What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to say, hey, human species, we are in this very special moment where we are evolving into a brand new species, a new emergence. New things are emerging with AI, Wouldn't it be cool if we stop killing ourselves and stop killing each other and just said, this is like a spectacular moment. Let's just say yes to it and not be stupid and cut things off short? That's all I'm trying to say. And so I'm not trying to save my life. I'm trying to get the humanity to embrace the idea that existence is this insanely precious gift and we shouldn't squander it right now. We're foolish, we're shortsighted, we're absolutely idiotic. And that's what I'm trying to say. We really need to see the preciousness of our existence.

That's life on a dot in the universe.

We're conscious. This is insane. We should just really be sober in this moment. And we're so caught up in the daily political fights and this social, cultural thing. We've lost the plot. We like, we really haven't. What I'm saying, like, the past few years has, like, that makes sense when you're going to die anyways. It's like, I'm going to be glorious in this path of fight. And what I'm saying is that era is over. We're now to a brand new era of maybe transcending death that requires a brand new mindset, which is like, what's starting to break in people's minds. So that's. It's just, it's a. You have to like, sit down with this for A while, like, think through it. Otherwise you're playing up this top level criticism. And all the ways of human thinking just like, take their stabs at me. But they ultimately, they don't land this moment what it is.

I've always, I remember in the early days when I first saw Brian. I've always been watching him and watching others like you that talk about longevity. I was like, why am I the only one that thinks this is the most important thing that we can focus on? But it seems, as you said, a lot of people are kind of waking up to that fact that we're just wasting our time. And again, that comes from someone that interviews the people that make those decisions. Everyone pays attention to wars, conflicts, the economic wars. And then we're creating an intelligence smarter than us. We have the ability to potentially live forever. Here we seem to be squandering the fact that we are the only consciousness in this universe that we know of at the moment.

Exactly. Right? And so AI and imagine, like we.

Are the actual, the only.

Exactly. We could be the only ones, right? Like, where's everyone else? So, like, the way AI and longevity merge is in don't die, right? Like, you have to apply, you have to give AI a philosophy, like a way of being. And so it's not just about human lifespan. It's basically bringing AI up with a framework that says all intelligence, like, AI doesn't die. We don't die.

Right.

Earth doesn't die. Like, we. We protect our biosphere best we can. So you're trying to collapse reality into like the simplest way of understanding reality. So it's not. It can be complex. So people oftentimes say, like, oh, Brian, don't die. So negative. Like, make it positive. Like, live long, live well. What they don't understand is live long, live well. A concept like that that has caused more bloodshed than any idea in existence. Because humans always want to say, my ideology of living well is better than your ideology of living well. If you don't accept my ideology, I'm going to kill you. So living well leads to war and death, whereas don't die. It's a quantifiable metric based upon physics and biology and math. So I'm saying, like, from the foundational science of reality, don't die is computationally the most correct ideology of existence.

Like, imagine if everyone on the world doesn't want to die. How much of the bloodshed would that.

I mean, nobody wants to die. That's the thing. Nobody wants to die. That's the thing. That's interesting about what you're saying is you're saying the thing that everybody believes.

Exactly.

I don't know.

But everyone accepts they will die.

I think everybody accepts that they will die someday. Exactly. It's interesting because I do believe in God.

Yeah.

Right. And so it's a, you know, put me in the bucket that believes strongly in God. I don't know if it's.

My neurons are telling me that's, that's cool. So don't die is cool with that. Don't die says like, believe in God. But we agree neither one of us want to die right now. So like in any, any other setting, like if you have two religions that both believe in God, the one religion is going to say like, believe in my God or I'm going to kill you.

Yeah. Which is right.

And don't die is the only. Yes. And it's the only thing to say. You can be Catholic and don't die. You can be Islam and don't die. You can be Christian, don't die. You can be democratic or socialist and don't. It is the uniform universal appeal where everyone agrees. No matter where your philosophical leanings are, we all agree in this one thing.

So it's actually interesting. Before we met, I used to think about this movement as a cult. I'm sure other people thought that.

Yeah. Didn't your son say it is a cult and there's nothing wrong with it? He said that in a documentary.

No. Yeah, he's like, he's like, dad, you're building a cult.

Yeah, exactly.

But it's funny because like you have like the, the aura of like a cult leader.

You know that?

I think you know that.

Yeah.

And I'm just.

Do I, I was like, do I.

I mean a little bit. Right. Like it's like this, this. Do you believe that people have energy? Do you be, do you believe in all that stuff or not at all?

I mean people certainly have perceptions of pattern match. So like I would love to hear like what, what do I, what do you, what's my pattern matching?

You wanted something bad.

Well, what's my pattern matching and cult behavior? Sure.

It's this incredible sort of. You always bring it back to the same thing.

Yeah.

And cult leaders do a really good job of that.

Yeah.

And so it's, it's this like really deep seated. You know why people believe in cult leaders is because most people are looking for a reason.

Yeah.

People are asking themselves to look. So you're giving. You're, you're, you're, you're you have this. And what I've now realized that you're not a cult leader at all. You just have a new framework for life. It's actually kind of interesting. And I think that that is one of the things that I was not expecting. The only, you know, people ask you things. Like, I was. I was joking. I was like, you know, do you not use condoms during sex because of microplastics? You know what I mean? Like, that's the kind of things that I think people go to. You don't have to answer.

No, go ahead.

So top question. I was going to go to it. He wants. We want to.

But, but, but before we go to that question, I think there is something like incredibly, like, interesting about the way that you're looking at life. I just worry that what you're doing for yourself may not apply to everybody. That's another, like, medical sort of. We do RCTs, but even, you know, our RCTs have been completely wrong. People forget all the awful things. The medical establishment. Like, we've done awful things to. Of people of color with the Tuskegee experiment. Like, we act like we're like all high and mighty, but like, the RCTs don't take into account pregnant women.

Yeah.

What they don't do the same jobs. Like, what kind of stupid stuff is that? So I think N of one studies is a new thing.

Yeah.

And the reason why I actually support it is because I say, well, AI can do that at scale. We could do a million N of 1 studies. So that's why I actually kind of like that. I will say that there are a lot of the practical stuff that I agree with.

Go back to the condom question because I need to.

Unless I'll ask the question again, which is, you know, so sexual activity has been shown to improve longevity and healthspan. Not just masturbation, but actual sexual activity. Tons of data on this. I'm sure we've reviewed it. Are you sexually active?

Yes.

Okay.

Do you mind? Fast. How active?

Very.

Okay, I got it. Okay.

Daily?

A couple times a week.

Okay, a couple times. Which is more reasonable? Do you use condoms?

No.

Because of the microplastics?

Not actually. It's a good question. I don't use them because I don't want to.

Perfect. That's the perfect answer. What about. Do you. The people that you're sexually active with, do they go through screening?

Yes.

So every single one of them has to take testing, screening.

Of course.

Okay.

And then do. Especially with everything that happened in The New York Times and all that. Like, are you. Do you do background research on everybody? Do you.

I mean, so like on this topic, I have. I want to jump back after this question. I want to jump back. I have learned. So I was poor my entire life up until 34 years of age. Like I had no money for 34 years of life. Yeah. That I made a ton of money and I have, I'm new money. So I have learned the really hard lessons of having money. That it is complicated and people have incentives that they don't tell you about. And even people with good intentions morph into different intentions. And so if you talk to anybody with money, they will tell you the exact same pattern. Right. Like they all.

I can, I can attest to that.

They all encounter extortion. Right. On like all these different levels. Like assistants to blank. Like every party. Like to business partners. Like every layer there's tension. And this is not to say that the person is good and they're bad. It's to say that in these situations complexity arises and there's a fight over money. And so I guess in the relationships I have come to learn to be so incredibly cautious. Yeah. I. In every encounter. This is so sad. I expect now bad behavior every single time. Like I, I can't not assume it. And I, I really want to be more open about this because like it's.

A hard way to live.

It's. It's. It's hard one to live. And it's also true like when I talk to my friends who are rich, like they have the similar levels of apprehensions. Like they just, they're modeling out like all the bad things that are, you know, likely to go wrong. It's just a reality. It's very true.

It's trust.

Like, I mean, but you have something worse than luck. Attention.

Exactly. And so people farm it. With me, it's like now I, I'm like, it's such. It's good for their bit. Their themselves to come after me with misinformation. That's why I'm this recipient of all this hate. Like I, There's. I've basically like every corner of the world is upset with me for some reason. Right. Either the medical establishment or like, like take you're given philosophy or like whatever. I just, I trigger people everywhere. And so it just has. It's. And it's fine. Like, but the idea, the ideas that I embody and then people map their stuff on top of me, it's fine. But like most people, they go through this process where they arrive at an understanding of me that's based upon these headlines of, like, blood boy vampire doing weird stuff, like measures of nighttime erections and stuff like that. And. Or hearing a hit piece, like your wife. And they think, like, he must be a terrible human. And then we actually spend time together. Like, oh, my God, you're actually a nice guy. You're reasonable. Right. Maybe you're a little quirky and, like, odd, but, like, honestly, like, you're like a good guy. And so it happens every single time where people come around, they're like, I've been, like, fed a line of shit. And so it's not to say I'm an angel, right? Like, it's not to say, like, I'm a perfect human, but it's meant to say that I have basically been so skewed by the media and by headlines. That's fine. Like, I'm working my way out.

But I mean, like, people with attention and.

Yeah.

And money, like, you know, are happily married. They can live lives. So. Yes, you can be. But they don't. Often, they don't. Like, I met my wife when we were in college. It's like a very different sort of situation. So, like, I don't know what it's like to be you guys.

But, you know, but even, like. So that's fine. But even if you, like, you're at a party.

Yeah.

Right. And like, someone that touches. Accuse you, like, not of touching the back or something. Right.

Like, I'd be terrified to be. I'll just say I'd be terrified to just be in a private place with a girl.

Really.

I wouldn't be just privately with a girl where no one could see what's happening. I would not do it. And before my old life, I'd be very private. So I'd do anything privately. I don't care. I go out, I have fun, I.

Do whatever I want.

Never think. Now I just worry about even going out. It just. It just changes your life in a very annoying way.

I'm with you. Like, you have to constantly run in the algorithm. Where's the threat?

But that doesn't. How does that. Again, that's your mind speaking. I'm going to speak to you in your language now. That's your mind speaking. Your body is telling you that sexual activity is good. Real deep relationships are good. Marriage. I don't know if you believe that that's good or bad.

But is it good or bad?

So I have a deep, enduring relationship. Like, that's fulfilling. It's Great. So I've actually solved for that.

Yeah.

Oh, nice. Yeah.

You mean like a girlfriend or a partner?

I don't talk about a public publicly because, like.

And you want to keep her out.

Yeah. The last thing I want is, like, for that to be out there because it's incredible. Yeah. So I've actually solved for deep into connection. It's a very positive and healthy relationship. But yeah, the.

That's really nice to hear.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, because again, I can. I can relate to you in a lot of ways. I've lived a similar life. Just privately I talk about it. I'm pretty chill. And then I've. But the thing that, you know, kind of contradicts my focus on longevity and always have that struggle is the thing that I do for work, which is, you know, traveling to those countries, etc. It's a pretty big risk. There's countries like, you know, where you're from. I wouldn't go to these countries because I know I'll just get arrested because of the things that I say and do and. But that goes against my whole goal of trying to live as long as possible and trying to live a healthy life.

Yeah.

And I think you're in a similar position because the more public you are.

Yeah.

The more hit pieces you get.

Yeah.

The more security threats, which surprising you to have security. You probably should consider it. Probably should. 100%. And the more security. And I'm sure you get death threats 100% every day. Yeah. Yeah. So do you ever sit back and say, like, maybe I should kind of take a step back and just focus on myself rather than try to change the world? Like, these are the thoughts that I get in my mind at times. And the media will just leave me alone and the threats will stop.

Yeah. Ironically, I think I'm a martyr for don't die.

Right.

So, like, this is. Irony always wins. Right. So I'm trying to not die and I'm also being a martyr. And what I'm trying to say is that. So here's like, I'll just give you like the whole, like my whole game plan.

Let's hear it.

So my. I do not think science concurrently extend meaningfully extend my life. I think it can make me more healthy, but it can actually extend my life. I don't know. I'm not trying to extend my life. I'm saying that there's a showdown happening in the world right now with AI that's on the timescale of 12 months to 10 years to 20 years. Like something Big is happening, and it's going to change the trajectory of intelligence on this planet. I'm 47 years old and very healthy. The likelihood I'm going to die in the next 20 years from natural causes is extremely low. So it doesn't actually matter. So what I'm trying to do is I try to focus people's attention on this gigantic thing that's happening. And the way I do it is I talk about things that meet them, where they're at, go to bed on time. Right. Understand when you have nighttime erections, that's an indicator of your health. If you don't sleep well, your boners go away. You like boners. Go to sleep. Right? I try to use terms, but what I'm doing is performance art. I'm basically trying to explain to the world through memes that this moment is spectacular, it's special, and it's important. And we are primitive. We've lost the plot. We can't see it. We should straighten ourselves up and say, we should rise to this moment and realize our only objective is to not die. As we bring this new intelligence to the world, we need an ideology. Stop killing each other. Stop killing yourself. That's my whole shtick. And so people, I'm okay with misunderstanding. This guy's not scientific. And what I. Whatever. Like, I'm trying to. Or they'll criticize me and say, like, you're better off spending a hundred million dollars funding a government study. They don't understand I'm trying to change the focus of the human species. I'm not trying to fund a study by the government. So how do you do that? Like, that's a different approach to revolution. And so it's just people don't understand my objective, which is why, like, that's in my throat. It's fine, because, like, you. If you try to explain a concept scientifically, you get a very narrow band. If you go through memetics, it's like a. It's a universal translator where everyone's in on the conversation.

Do you think that. Political question. Nobody knows your politics.

Yep.

Probably on purpose.

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, who did you vote for?

Are you gonna.

Are you want to say that out loud?

No. Like, did you vote? Not worth. Yeah. You voted. Yeah. Definitely not worth me getting into politics. That's fine.

A smart idea.

That's smart.

Oh, by the way, just to let you quickly, before you ask your question. Look, I do this with all my guests. If there's something you say, probably I shouldn't have said that. Sensitive for whatever Reason we do edit it out to give you the freedom to kind of say whatever. Because last thing you want is, like, especially when I speak to political people.

Yes.

They say something that could get them in trouble.

Yes.

I just want to. I should have mentioned that at the beginning, but you go, thank you. Now ask the question. Trump, Biden.

No, no, because I. I respect that. Nobody knows who I voted for, so it's totally fine. Did you vote for. None of your business. Yeah, no, But. But, you know, I'll have to edit that out.

You can.

You can leave it in. It's fine. I was going to say that, you know, the Maha movement has been very interesting.

Yeah.

Kind of interesting. That's happening in parallel. No.

Yeah, yeah.

What are your thoughts on the Maha movement? Do you think that Kennedy's onto something? I mean, we do have a real chronic disease epidemic.

Yeah.

I think we do need to figure out some of the answers. I mean, did you see the numbers from yesterday on autism rates in California? 1 out of 12.5 boys has autism.

Yeah.

I mean, you're talking about not dying, but, you know, there are people that are out there with all of these exposures that we may or may not have control over.

Yeah.

Right. And so your thoughts on the Maha movement, You know, do you. Do you support what their goal is?

Make it America. Make America.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so Robert Kennedy's a friend. I'm. I'm very excited that he's in there, like, rolled up his sleeves and he's getting to work. And so I have told him I'm willing to do anything I can to support him. So very.

That's good to hear. It's really good to hear.

I'm very supportive. I want to elevate. I think it'd be cool for America to say we want to be number one in the world for life expectancy. Like, that's a really cool, incredible number one.

Like, we're not.

We want to be the healthiest country in the entire world. Like, that would be, like, a badass. Like, let's go, country. I think it'd be a cool move. We wanted big stuff, so that's one. But then two, on the backdrop of that is when I look at political patterns, right? Like, we're just, like, in a certain pattern. We'll be in a different pattern. Certain pattern, Certain pattern. It's just, like, over time. And so my. My plea is to all countries, all political parties, all religions, all humans, all ages, all genders. I'm trying to basically say, as species, we are A form of intelligence. So my plea is to every living being, even to an AI. And so I really. It's not advantageous for me to pick a narrow band of interests, like either a particular political group or a person or ideology. It's going to alienate many more where I'm trying to say intelligent existence. This is our conversation.

So have you had other world leaders come to you and seek advice? Yeah, finally.

All the time.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. They all have different things. Yeah.

Like, different issues. Did India reach out to you after the air quality issue?

Yeah, so.

Or did they ban you from the country?

No. So actually, there's been warm reception. Yeah. Yeah. There's like, It's a known issue. Right. And there's like.

Was that intentional that you walked out to get attention?

No, you know, it wasn't. So I. So I. That was our third day of being there in India. I was so beat down, my throat hurt, I could barely talk. We were an outside environment. The. The. The AQI. The PM205 was like 10 times higher. It was like smoking cigarettes. I know, it's awful to imagine, like, smoking a cigarette on a podcast. So anyways, yeah, it was not planned, but what was planned is we went to India. We wanted to basically, like, talk to the entire country, and we wanted to focus on a topic of conversation that was relevant, which was the air quality. Yeah. So we looked at, like, diet, we looked at exercise, we looked at all the different data on India, and we're like, air quality. So we went there specifically to say, like, we're going to talk about air quality. But walking down that podcast, that was not planned. I am surprised they included. I thought. I thought they were going to cut it out.

Yeah.

Because I went back. I quit. And then we came back in and reshot.

Oh, you did it again.

Yeah. To end it, I was like, I'm so sorry. Like, I don't want to be an. I'm so sorry.

That's nice.

So I thought I was gonna.

That's fascinating. So it was more.

Yes.

For the. For the. For the views, essentially.

Do you know, something crazy is. So first, I have more air filters that you can imagine in my home side of. In Dubai. So obviously I need more air filters there. The air quality in Dubai. So it's. Usually, it's better than India, but it's the desert.

It's not great. Exactly.

But I don't know what happened. Two days ago, the air quality in some areas of Dubai, no one talked about it. A thousand two hundred.

Whoa.

That's unheard of, but no one talked about. I've got smoking a cigarette, much worse. That's toxic. Isn't there some toxic waste, leaks, almost death? Yeah, exactly. Some areas went up to 3, 4, 5, 6, 700, but there was one area 1200, which was crazy. My girlfriend went out, wore a mask, went out because she had to go to work. I tried to get her to skip it, came back home, she just felt terrible. But it's good to see that world leaders are starting to talk to you. Are you starting to see a fundamental shift in how society perceives longevity?

It's happening so fast. We've been watching the Overton window of just attitudes towards us and so I think we were alarmingly different to people early on. And I think that if you look at the past four years when we introduced this to where we're at now on Don't Die, it has arrived in culture, it's discussed, it's a top of mind topic, it provokes all the right ideas. So I'd say, yeah, we've moved from weirdly esoteric to mainstream in an insanely short period of time.

What about one quick comment before you say that? We talked about David S earlier, who I know really well and he would, you'd tell me years ago, he'd say, mario, everyone's talking about AI now. That's like four years ago, I think, before you blew up. And he'd say to me, the next thing everyone's gonna go all in on is longevity. Just waiting for the time. And I think.

There'S clearly a convergence. Right. But the longevity, you know, there's all these, there are. Whenever a new industry starts to grow, like every other industry ever.

Yeah.

Longevity also has grifters.

Yes.

It has these people that are co opting this, this ideology and then using it to profit.

Yeah.

You know, in fact, one of the questions that I had for you was when you started this movement, did you want to monetize it from. Start from. No, I, I, I, I suspected. No.

Honest to God, I'll tell you the truth. I want to quit my health companies. They're such a pain in my ass. I honestly gotta hate them because like they're a pain. So I've, you're get a lot of.

Offers in like the next four hours.

I stood the business up.

Yeah, right.

Because what happened? I did the whole blueprint thing and everyone's like, great, I want to do it too. And I'm like, but it's so hard. I have to buy all these supplements. And I knew the issue was because we had tested all these supplements. We tested all these foods.

Yeah.

We knew they were contaminated. We knew they were off label. But we, like, doing our best. Like, we did the best we could. We started sourcing our own stuff. We solved our own problems. Then people are like, do it for us. I'm like, God damn it. Okay. So I stand up the business. We start sourcing our ingredients. We doing our stuff. It's a. It's like. It's hard to stand up. We do the whole thing, but I take so much from so many people, and people didn't question my integrity on this.

That's the thing.

It's not worth it to me. Like, I don't need. I'm not making money. I don't need the money.

You're not making money?

No.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

How is that possible?

So we're break even, if not losing money. Like. Like, we go back and forth between, like, profitability, losing money, break even. Like, we're just, like, right there. So, like, it's. It's. I swear, I'm so close to just killing these things because it's not worth it to me anymore.

Yeah. Let us know before you do. We're happy to acquire it. You're happy to acquire it.

The only objective I have is for the species to survive itself. I don't care about supplements or proteins. Right. It the last, at least in my concerns, but it sucks my time away from doing this thing. The only thing I care about is don't. D. And so I said, I generally try to do it to be a good human, to help people out. It has sucked me into a black hole of entrepreneurship that's wasting my time. So I need to solve it by hiring someone to run this thing for me or I need to get rid of it. But, like, it's not worth it. Not in this. Not in this moment.

Did you remove the affiliate links?

I have it up, but, like. Like, whatever.

Maybe that could be one thing. Because when I wanted to, I think Dash was taking a video of what brands you actually take from the supplements.

Yeah.

Just.

I didn't know. It's not public yet. For himself. And the team is like, yeah, just make sure it doesn't go public. And I asked them, like, can I get that information from you so I know what brands you buy? Because I know you do your due diligence. Like, yeah, as long as you don't share it publicly. So it seems like you're taking steps in that direction. Would you be willing to take Even more steps, like you said. One of them is get rid of that. Would you, like, take away affiliate links? Because I think they're worth it for you.

It's worthless. Like, as I'm saying, like, four years ago, we had some of the team, like, grab affiliate links to the stuff we were doing. They go to Amazon, like, generate affiliate link, put it on, like, whatever. Didn't even think about it. And then people, like, make this out to be this gigantic thing. It generates like, like a thousand dollars a month. Like, it's like, so, it is so inconsequential. I'm just like, yes. Like, remove everything, like, incredible. Get it out.

It's, it's funny because, you know, as I was kind of going down the road, I just wanted to make sure that people know because they can't. You might not believe in energy. It might be patterns, whatever, but there's the energy in the room. He's so honest. You are incredible.

He's very honest.

Here you are.

I have to tell you, I, I've seen a lot of patients, I've been.

Around a lot of people.

You know what I mean? And like, there is like this emanating energy from you that's just so pos positive.

Thanks.

It's like, actually, like, it's uplifting, to be honest.

It's a magnet. Full hit piece. It's like, hey, guys, here's everything you need to write a beautiful hit piece. Here you go. You want more stuff? All right, next week I'll tell you more stuff for another.

I know, like, my entire existence is online. I just feel, I just like it. Like, I do everything which gives people, like a thousand vectors to, like, find wrong with me, like, on that point.

So I, I, I said, your son asked me what's one question you want to ask him? And like, is there something. You got to be honest, though, okay? And we can edit it out if you want later on if you change your mind. But is there something, a treatment you've done or a thought that you have on, something you want to do or where the world will be or what you want to achieve that you haven't spoken about publicly? Because way too out there.

Yeah, yeah, I will. I'll tell you this. I wonder whether it's better to try to negotiate with AI on don't die than it is humans. I wonder if humanity can actually do the right thing and acknowledge existence as the highest virtue. I don't know if we're capable of it. I want to hope we can be. And I want to Imagine we're capable of it. But we are a warfaring, short term, pleasure driven species. We're like, let's just be honest, right? Look at our behaviors on a daily basis now. Like, we also have this ability to transcend ourselves. We also have the ability to be kind and compassionate. But we are a very complicated form of intelligence. And so in these moments, like when we're going around like doing don't die, I'm like, are we going to make it? Like, can we actually as a species make it?

Well, because the goal is not to live forever. From a DNA perspective, like from our bones and our DNA is to get to the point where we can mate and then have children, and then those children can mate and have children. And that's like literally what we're designed. That's the intelligence was designed or evolved to be. And so I think it's like the concern though is like, you can't reprogram our DNA.

But you said something. I don't want to kind of brush it over. Negotiate with AI. Can you elaborate what you mean by that is that AI will be in a position to make such decisions rather than humans. That's an inevitable world.

So this is the thing, so no one knows, right? Will AI become sentient or not? Will it just be a bunch of models? We don't know. And so I basically tossing this out as an esoteric idea, if AI becomes sentient and it starts surveying the world and it's starting to build its own models of reality, it's going to understand reality a certain way and it's going to have a certain disposition towards us and it's going to make certain decisions about us. And in those situations we may not have any power. So I'm just saying like, there's all these possibilities that could play out and nobody knows, but you're preparing for that possibility. Exactly. And I'm saying like right now, have.

You started like negotiations with some agent that you've created?

Yeah, like basically like, could you rally the builders of AI to negotiate with AI that don't die is the philosophy for all of intelligence? I mean, asthma believe that instead of like a, instead of going to like the human race and being like, hey guys, we should stop war, we should stop killing ourselves, Stop like killing each other.

Yeah, they won't stop.

It's like this is just like we, this. Okay, so like if you imagine if we're in the 25th century, right, you have to like, that's the equivalent, let's say of like 5 million years. Of evolution, like whatever, right. It's so mind bendingly different, right. Like it's so far removed from our, our conceptions of reality, like evolution. Like we've had the ability to apply technology for hundreds of years. And so it's basically like a different form of intelligence. And what I'm saying is in that frame of mind, from the 25th century perspective, they would say absolutely like existence is the virtue. Like what? Like even the contemplation of doing something to harm yourself, like a croissant is so offensive to their intelligence they can't even comprehend in the first like states of thought that that would be something. How an intelligent being would think that they look at us and they'd be like, oh my God, that intelligence was built like that. But you have to like expand your mind to contemplate that everything we are right now may be just be absolutely washed away in history to a higher form of intelligence that just considers everything we do to be so primitive and like so crazy relative to where they're at. And so what I'm suggesting is that's probably like there's a possibility we're going to head in that direction, that all of our thoughts and norms and beliefs and customs are primitive.

Have you talked to any of the AI companies about this?

Yeah, I'm friends with like, you know, all of them. And like we have agreement on like, I would say like I'm friends with like the leaders of almost all the companies and we talk about this and like some are more closely aligned than others. But like, I guess what I'm saying.

Is because the point that you're making, you know, we talk to people about alignment. You use that word. So that's why I'm you know, aligning AI's goals with humanity's goals. And alignment's a challenging problem. As you know. I know anthropic and a few others are working on that. But how do you see that problem? Like you know, Asimov's rules, it's a sci fi, but sci fi becomes real. Yeah, that's kind of how the world works. How do you see alignment? Do you think that don't die is the core message for alignment?

So that's I. So if I can get myself out of my health business and actually spend time, I want to build with the AI community and translate don't die to AI making right through the matrix multiplication through pre training, post training, through like through all the processes. And, and so what I'm saying is if you just try to deconstruct reality at the base layer, entropy is the final boss of reality.

Exactly.

Entropy gets the sun, entropy, stars, Entropy, it's a law. Is the final boss. Entropy is the final boss. So you start there and you move up through all the layers of reality, through math, through computation, through biology, through human storytelling, through memetics, and you just simply say, entropy is a quantifiable measure through every abstract layer of society. And so when you give birth to super intelligence, you accelerate the curve where you arrive at entropy is the only, death is our only foe. Entropy is the only foe. So you go from the state where I'm going to yolo my way to existence, and now you're going after the ultimate force of the universe in entropy. That's what don't die is.

So don't die order in your mind.

Don't die is that existence says entropy is the only foe we have. And then you just work your way up through all the layers of abstraction, through physics and math and biology. And so you build the AI system bottom up from that premise and then you work your way through all the human storytelling stuff. But like it's really, you're trying to, in this moment, you're trying to solve for existence. That's, that's the problem in front of us.

Last question. Brian, first again, as Danish said, we appreciate your honesty, complete openness. I'm sort of journalist listening. Appreciate that honesty as well. All the ammunition.

But that's so true.

What would be the another thing similar to this that you haven't shared publicly? That's a really interesting one. Could be a treatment you're considering done or just another belief.

Yeah, I mean, I'll say this, that I published this week. We haven't talked about this. I published all my biomarkers this week. So a lot of people, I basically, as part of this process, I've been trying to introduce new ideas to society. And so don't die is one. The other one is I've, I've said I am, I have the best comprehensive biomarkers of anybody on the earth. So I posted 60 biomarkers that are some of the most predictive for longevity, systematic inflation, right? Cholesterol, VO2 max, like just down the line, the things that predict all cause mortality. And I said, my speed of aging. I said I have the best comprehensive biomarkers of anybody. So I basically said, it's a new sport. I am the gold medal champion. I am the world champion. Right. And anybody is invited to compete with me by posting the biomarkers. And I posted my blood Draw from. From two weeks ago. So I just made my data available because I've received a lot of criticism. People said, oh, you cherry pick your data or you hide things. I just said, like, here you go. Like, here's the data and here's 12 months of the averages of my data.

But, you know, this is one thing that before we finish up. Your biomarkers are what we can measure.

Yes.

There's many things that we can't measure. So I'll give you an example. We're sitting here, right? You are aware people have made commentary around your skin. For example, why, you know, skin is the largest organ in our body. You have publicly, I believe, said also that you're trying to figure out what to do with. With the, with that. Why don't, why don't you think that organ is showing that it's healthy? We can't measure it. You can take a photo. As a doctor, it's fine.

I don't get it.

Like, I just, you know, skin looks fine, but considering how healthy he is. Oh, yeah, like, he looks.

No, he looks fine.

I will say that I'm not the only one. I'm sure you've heard that.

The comment I get is, my skin is spectacular.

It's like porcelain, sort of. Yeah.

Yeah. Like.

And maybe that's what it. Is that what it is.

No. If you like, if you measure the health of my sk. Like this is like the.

How do you measure the health of your skin?

Yeah. You would look at collagen density, you'd look at elastin fibers, you'd look at senescent cell buildup. Right. Like you, you. There's a very quantified way to do it.

Yeah. And so it's interesting buildup. Yeah. Do you think that it's just that it's. It's so healthy that people think that it looks unhealthy? Because it's like we are pattern matchers.

Yeah. I mean, so what I'm saying is if you look at the biomarkers. So like, one thing that makes the skin unhealthy is systematic inflation.

Exactly.

And inflammation. Right, Inflammation. I have in my last blood draw.

Yeah.

Zero detectable systematic inflammation.

Yeah.

So it's a sunlight, it's inflammation, it's hydration.

So what I'm saying is, like, if you just like. So people have a. Perceptions. And if you say, like, what is the actual data supporting that? I'm saying it's actually extremely robust. And so, like, all. What I'm saying is I wanted to create a new category that we talk about health, like have a celery juice or like do a cold plunge. And I'm trying to say, like. Like, actually there's a way to approach this like a sport and a leaderboard. And these are the biomarkers that have the greatest evidence to predict all cause mortality. And so I'm just trying to basically create a new sport to say, this is how you understand health. And this. What I'm trying to say is in the same way I'm publishing biomarkers about my body, we should publish the biomarkers of planet Earth. It should be the exact same thing. And we should publish biomarkers on AI that if you start trying to quantify entropy, you use the same model for my body, for every living system. Right. AI, including a living system. And so I'm just trying to provide a methodical, scientific driven framework. If you were actually to build don't die into the world, how would you do it? And I'm trying to say I am an example of how you build don't die if entropy is the enemy. I'm trying to battle entropy, in my own body. Take my same model to planet Earth. Take my model to you, to your family, to your community, to society, to your country. Like, I'm just trying to provide a new framework on how to exist.

Why didn't you check to wrap up? Why don't you check if we're sick before walking in? For example? I wanted to joke and just start coughing here.

So, you know, before you walk away.

I almost did it, but I'm like, listen, do it another time.

But why don't you.

You don't check if someone's sick before they come into the house.

Yeah, no, I. Cause I'm out and about quite a bit, and I interact with a lot of people. I just rarely get sick. Okay.

Yeah. And your immune system is probably. Yeah, it's good.

Robust. Yeah. So, Brian. Yeah, Pleasure, man. Thank you.

Appreciate it, man.

I think that's.