These 87 Minutes Blew Logan Paul's Mind
In this 87‑minute YouTube roundtable hosted by Bryan Johnson, participants including Logan Paul, Mike Majlak, Thomas, Jorge and several unnamed speakers discuss the "Don't Die" movement – a proposed ideological framework that prioritises the avoidance of death as a unifying, non‑combative principle for humanity. The conversation weaves through several themes: the inherent violence and short‑sightedness of humans, the desire to expand conscious existence far beyond current biological limits, and the practical challenges of scaling a movement that competes with existing ideologies and capitalist incentives. Participants raise ethical dilemmas (e.g., how to allocate limited resources within the movement), personal longevity goals (150‑year target), skepticism about feasibility, and the need for cultural narrative shifts (bunkers, community pledges, media). Historical parallels are drawn to Buddhism, Christianity, democracy, and other belief systems, positioning "Don't Die" as a temporary scaffold to guide humanity toward a future with superintelligent AI. The dialogue ends with each guest reflecting on personal take‑aways, expressing a mix of optimism, doubt, and a call to action to adopt the pledge and continue the conversation.
Chapters
Welcome, friends, to the Don't Die gathering. Now we're going to commence our secret Don't Die rituals. Tonight we're going to have a conversation about the future of being human. We're going to end the night and you're going to think it's one of the most consequential conversations you've had in your entire life.
Is this like an open discussion? Like to jump in, ask questions and stuff? Or is it like just you talk and tell us what to do?
So the invitation is you guys become Don't Die citizens.
Don't die.
What does that.
What does that mean?
What does it mean to be alive? How arrogant are we to think we cannot die? Do you think don't die is impossible?
I'm going to give you guys five thought experiments. Here's the first thought experiment. So if you had access to an algorithm that could give you the best physical and mental and spiritual health of your life, but exchange for the access, you did what the algorithm said, you went to bed when it said you ate what it said you exercised in the way it prescribed, would you say yes, or would you say no?
Yes.
You're in. Why?
Because if you're telling me that it's for certain, I love certainty.
Good answer. I would say no.
Okay. Why?
I like the idea of free will. I think too much.
And so this would you feel. This would basically step on your free will? Because it's telling you, essentially no algorithm.
Is going to control my life.
Okay. So yes. No. Okay. Others. Yes.
I would say maybe based on what it suggests.
No, because I'm just saying, if I were to.
If I could see it, if I could see the results, because similar to Logan, maybe there's more value in living the way I'd rather live versus the perfect way to live.
Yeah.
I think the have to was tripping me up.
Yeah. You have to. Yes.
Well, I don't. I don't want to have to do anything.
Right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. So in this case, you can't say maybe because you don't know. You just. You don't even know what's going to happen. The only thing you know is you say, this is the best I've ever felt physically and mentally and spiritually.
You got to say yes.
Then you say yes.
If.
If it's guaranteed the best I've ever felt, physically, mentally, spiritually.
Things. Yeah. I mean.
Yes. I don't.
I'm still not. No, no, no. Yeah.
Okay. Others.
So given the premise, I'd say no, because I'm not the One. Setting the parameters.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
Yeah. Okay, so you're saying that you want to identify what your goals are and pursue your goals, kind of like Logan, and if it steps on, that doesn't work for you.
Correct.
Okay.
Have fun feeling crappy boys.
Maybe, bro.
No, but that's.
I think that that's an assumption that I believe is incorrect. Like, what's the. What if you already feel great and how much better can you feel? You know, if I'm. If I'm at 95, I'm good here. Like, what is the. Is the extra 5% worth? My life being controlled by an algorithm? To me, the answer is no.
Generally speaking, most people live there every day trying to reach that goal, though. So I guess if this is saying, hey, you're gonna reach your goal, and everybody's wishing for that goal, and maybe while everyone's wishing and praying and hoping.
To do the right things, it's like.
You know, you got to do the things you don't want to do.
Well, also, most people live at, like, 20%. Logan claims or does exist at, you know, 88 or whatever it is. You know, I've got a lot of room to go, so if you can guarantee it to me, man, I'll become an algorithm. Sure.
I guess I'd say yes, if I know the outcome. Yeah, yeah, exactly. If I know the outcome. And it'll, I guess, help me build.
Some discipline in a way. Yeah.
To, you know, stay stuck to a certain routine.
And I like routine.
What does the bank account look like?
That's a big question. Yeah. So you don't know.
Right.
All you know is you say right. Right. Which includes your knowledge of the bank account. So whatever the bank account is, you factor that in to say this is.
Yeah, sounds pretty good.
You would assume, though, that if you're operating at 100%, you, that energy would then be used to potentially increase your. Your bank account.
God willing.
I would unquestionably say yes. It feels like my life is already being run by so many algorithms that can do what I do, but better. And so if you're saying that there's an algorithm that can give me the best physical, mental, and spiritual health, I know that I probably lack the ability to do that on my own, and so I would fully say yes.
Okay, cool. So we got yes, yes, yes, no, no, yes, four yes, two nos. All right, cool.
See you guys in hell.
Okay, second thought, experiment. Now, let's imagine that those that exist in the 25th century just watched a video of this conversation, they heard me ask the question, they heard your responses. What do they say are your characteristics of intelligence? Like, what are you as a Homo sapien in the year 2025? What do you value? What are your morals? What are your ethics? How do you reason through? What are your logical patterns? What do they say about you?
What do they say about this conversation? Or us? Or like a combination of them?
Yeah, specifically you guys, each one of you and your responses to that question.
Wow. The one on the left side nearest to Brian and his other earthling friends seem to enjoy comedy, laughter and fun amongst their companions.
Beep, boop, beep boop.
But in that word, in those words. But saying that.
Yeah, yeah, wow.
They seem to like fun and also like, I could imagine why they wouldn't want to become algorithms to enjoy this 2,500year old success. Because they like to have fun. Maybe too much fun for their good, as we saw by their extinction only 100 years after this conversation.
I mean, jokes aside, it's a tough prompt. Just because to assume we're even going to make it to the 25th century is optimistic. I think, like truly, like 400 years from now is. I mean, dude, I don't think we're going to make it there, man. But, but assuming we do, I also would assume that these people that will inevitably be way more intelligent than us would have the grace to understand that we simply did not have the resources that they had to know the things that they knew. In the same way, if I look back 400 years from now and I'm looking at the early 1600s, it's like I could zoom out and kind of like poke fun at humanity's ignorance. But they only knew what they knew because of where they were at that point in time. So I would assume an advanced version of ourselves would also give us the grace to not be incredibly judgmental about us in general and the decisions we were making. I know it used to. 20 seconds. But this is go. Okay, so this inherent block that humans have that you're very well aware of that like most people are not. And like I'm certainly not. I'm like trying to catch myself and have that self awareness to understand that since death, at least to me seems inevitable because that's what we've been taught from the entire existence of our species, I go ahead and then give myself the freedom to do what I want is if death is out of the equation for someone in the 25th century, like the parameters of this conversation are extremely different. Like the way they Live life is extremely different.
Because now you're like, I can see you're trying to put your headspace there and you're trying to objectively view this time. So you're doing a great job because that's the whole exercise is like can you actually exist in a. An imagined space where they're much more advanced than we are? And that creates that contrast to see ourselves in a state that's comparative. Right.
So I've done like a personal thought experience experiment in that like I've tried to look into the future of my own life and I, at the moment, Brian, can't seem to get past three years. Like I can do, I can do up to three years and then it's like there's just too many variables for me to understand, like what will become of my life. And so, yeah, I mean, I, I guess like if there is like a tipping point for humans to understand that they can extremely increase the length of their life until that happens and it's fully understood. I'm having a hard time answering this particular prompt.
Let's keep going. It's almost 2,500 now.
Let us know.
We should know minute now what's actually happening.
They probably say similar to how we look at younger kids now, like, oh my God, they're so into their feelings.
So.
That said, it's what makes us human. So I wouldn't sacrifice us being able to think about things with our feelings for now, you know, Even though they might look at that as a negative.
Look at a conversation from someone in the 1500s and judge them based on.
What we know now.
Right, right.
Exactly right. Exactly right.
Except that it. In his theoretical discussion, that doesn't work as well because the advancement between now and 20, you'd have to go back to like.
I mean it doesn't even exist. You don't go back to like, like literally Neanderthals.
Based on, Based on this experiment. Yeah, based on this. Yeah.
Because.
Yeah.
Technology, exponential curve.
Yeah.
Kevin's no longer smoking weed by the.
Way, so he's very clear.
Correct.
You sober?
Sober.
I'm trying to listen and absorb and come up with my own prompt, but.
I just, I love it.
Like Logan, I can't seem to go.
You know, go, go. Yeah, exactly.
But I love that you said yes to the thought experiment. You're actually. That is the hardest thing is to push past like the wall of thought, like the self awareness to realize you're blocked in your own patterns. So I love it. That's a really good stretch.
Yeah.
I Just, I can't seem to really.
Answer that prompt at the moment.
Cool. All right, so challenge?
Yeah, I have absolutely no idea. And it's because if you, like, we could, say, look back at the 15th century and ask what they would think of us. And we realized that if we asked the 15th century to predict where we're at now, they would have no idea.
No idea.
And we look at the technological progress as X amount. And if we look at 500 years from now, it might be a thousand X, a million X. So if we can't even predict X amount, there's no question that we can't predict a thousand X from now.
Okay, cool. So let's recap what happened in the first two thought experiments. There's five total. So the first thought experiment, there's no right or wrong answer. Yes or no is not right or wrong. What it's meant to show you is that I gave you a question where you have imperfect knowledge. Therefore you go to your mind and you say, all right, mind. How do I understand reality? The second question I gave you a contemplation of from the vantage point of the future. We know from our experience, when we look back at the 15th century and Neanderthals, we assess them as not being as robust as we are intellectually. They just didn't know any better. This thought experiment humbles you a little bit. You're like, well, maybe my models of reality are not as robust as I thought they were. So over some time duration, we can say with confidence, our models of reality may not stand the test of time. New ones might replace them. All right, question number three. The most important question on planet Earth right now, hands down, is, what does the human race do when we give birth to super intelligence? There's no other question that matters right now. It is the most significant thing happening in the entire world. Everything, it's like level 100 important. Everything else like level one in contrast. So there's a lot of discussion about what we do. People. Some people are very worried about AI, like it's going to take all of our jobs. Some people are worried it's going to take over the world. Some people are worried it's not moving fast enough. China wants one thing with AI. The US Wants a different thing. Anthropic wants one thing open. AI wants a different thing. Republicans and Democrats have different opinions. So everybody has different viewpoints on AI. What should happen with it, what timescales? There's a lot of opinions, but the question is, what do we do as a species? Now that we're giving birth to a form of intelligence that's going to exceed us in all things and change our society beyond comprehension. What do we do?
So first off, I'm a firm believer that humans will essentially become obsolete. And so in that regard, I guess the next prompt would be what would make a human Human. A homo sapien. Not obsolete to the super intelligence. That's why to answer prompt number two, I said, like, like I. There. There is very little chance we make it to the year 2500. Like, I just, I think, I think as a human.
As humans.
As humans. I think, I think, I think if you look at the evolutionary chart, you know, you had this hunched over ape that became a little Homo erectus and then Neanderthal, the Homo sapien. Now we're here, we're humans. And it went from spears to iPhone. I think if you were to like extrapolate that one more, it would be like a, like a, like literally a humanoid, like a half man, half machine. And the combination of super intelligence with humanity, like, it sounds ridiculous. It's also, it's also inevitable.
But that chart is millions of years.
No, no, I, I don't think it is.
No, no, I'm saying that the total chart is, is a long, is a long time, right? No, not how long?
200, 200,000 years.
All right, sure. So that final step or, or next step to cyborg or humanoid, you anticipate that happening over the next 300 years?
Inevitably. Inevitably, bro Elon. Inevitable. It's inevitable. It's inevitable.
I don't think anything's inevitable.
I think, I think there's. Unless. Unless our species gets completely wiped out. But bro Elon's putting a neural link in your head in the next. What are you talking about?
In 50 years.
You know what, that's.
Well, we're already.
Well, we're already part of.
It's gonna go to phone, to glasses, to neuralink. But can they start. They'll be natural born people, hopefully. But then when like, yes, Generated.
I believe it's inevitable. Bro, if you were to explain someone a hundred years ago. A hundred years ago, yeah. This fact that they go, bro, you're crazy.
That's impossible.
So everything you think is possible, is it or is impossible, is simply not.
No facts.
A century from now.
No, they're 200 years from now.
Printing 300 years from now.
Are you kidding me, bro, People are.
No longer born, they're grown.
Low key. Low key.
Like anything you can imagine will probably happen.
So given all that, what do we do?
Oh, oh, oh, oh.
What do we do?
Okay, so the best path, I believe, for survival is I think humans need to find a way to stay useful. And I don't know.
Does that have babies?
Probably, but I don't know. I don't know. In the Matrix they were used is literally as bad as batteries. Like, is that how we stay useful? Maybe. I don't know. Is it creative? I think a creative space. It will be hard for super intelligence to replicate, but also not. I use chat GPT for a lot of ideas. And it's very good. Very good. So come back to me.
Well, no, no, I think you answered it, which was remain useful or find a way to be useful. And building off of that, in my eyes and something I speak on all the time, and the way that we become as a species, the most useful as humanly possible is to unify. Find a way to unify. Meaning, like, together we stand, divided we fall. We're up against a unified front, which is technology, intelligence, superintelligence. How can we work together with our ally, drawing everyone into an allied front to nip the issue in the bud prior to it becoming a war for superintelligence and becoming a overall unified management of superintelligence for human usage, not for it to use us or to war with us. Because the way this gets out of control in my eyes, is when you divide and you have a power struggle and it's used for malicious behaviors. And I think that's when you have. When mistakes will be made. And by the way, I don't think it'll be Super Intelligence taking over us or replacing us. It will be super Intelligence picking up the pieces after we destroy ourselves. So basically we'll say, okay, well, they're gone now. Let's do what we have to do.
You know, so what do you think we should do?
Unify.
How do we unify?
By understanding our likenesses as humans and understanding that now that a new intelligence is coming up, there's us and them doesn't mean us. China, Russia. It means us and them, meaning there's all of us and there's all of them.
And.
And I don't know if that's possible, but it's not. But I just mean as long as.
The governments are run the way they're running.
Yeah, for sure. I'm not saying it's possible. And by the way, I'm pretty pessimistic, but, like, I think it would be necessary because if we're too busy fighting each other and divided and acting the way that we are now we have no chance to. And by the way, also not knowing what they're working on, they don't know what we're working on. We're playing in silos. And there's no universal control of this monster there.
And there won't be, bro. Unfortunately, there won't be. Our species is far too flawed.
Yeah.
For any sort of unity. Which is, which is like we're. We're flawed, bro. Like AI is not. And if it is, it fixes itself.
What about Grok?
I use rock.
I don't know much about Fun mode. The Twitter. Yeah.
I think that once AI is here, in short, it's going to be an attempt to control whether that is, control the technology that we just created or control the way in which we interact with that technology so that it doesn't inevitably destroy us.
In what way do you control it?
So that's, I mean, that's the million dollar question, right? Like, is it a control of the actual technology itself? Is it a way in which that you show as humans the technology that humanity being on Earth is a net positive and therefore it's more of a supportive role that they have. Obviously, you know, if only we had a crystal ball.
Right.
But in short, that's my answer.
I think we just have to have more fun as humans. Like let AI do more of the work. Let all the big corporations pay some people some minimum wage to live, you know, you know, during the best part of the pandemic or like during the long holiday break when you like feel really relaxed and you're just like with your friends and family and you're like, no stress about like work and you're just like, oh shit, like humanity just like living. I think we gotta like, get back to that, you know, I mean, you.
Know, I love that. Obviously.
Sounds great.
Yeah.
I would say humanity has to stay. Stay creative and stay thinking outside the box. I don't think, I mean, it's possible.
But I don't think AI will be.
Able to take a creative's job ever. And yeah, I just, I just think humans have to stay creative and thinking, like not linear, but you know, ups and downs, you know.
Yeah. The one thing that you have to contend with on that is everything that humans have said AI can't do, AI has done.
Except. Except for that right now AI is.
Only like an amalgamation of everything that's already done by humans. But now it can generate new thoughts.
Or it's faster and it's smarter.
No, it'll be able to do creative Pursuits, but like deep, deep creative pursuits.
Well, if you believe.
But here's the thing. Like, if a computer creates it, like, who cares?
You know what I'm saying?
Like, if AI creates a signal of art. All right, like.
Well, no, but, but he said he's. What he's saying is that there, there can be. Because we're saying that we don't believe that it's possible. Which means that actually is an even closer step to the cyborg he's talking about. Because what that means to me is you believe that AI in the form of robotics or whatever will eventually be able to potentially fall in love, maybe potentially even recreate or reproduce. Meaning the cyborg human, maybe by 2400 is a possibility.
Like I.
Tell the human versus something that's an AI robotic, which honestly, you start thinking about God and humans are God and we create and like, how God created us or whatever. If you want to think that for now, for the sake of it. And then we created I. And like, it grows to a way where, like, an AI robot looks just the same and moves the same. So it's like, what really is the different. We really are that on, like a bio level.
So it's similar.
Yeah. So I guess I'm. All I'm saying on your. You're basically saying you're putting forward a hypothesis that humans will be able to as a form of intelligence, that Homo sapiens will be able to do something that computational intelligence can't in any merger of AI and biology. What I'm saying is you have to contend with the hypothesis is if you look back to the history of humans predicting that AI will never be able to do blank, it's consistently shattered all expectations. And so if you just follow the trend, like, maybe they can't do something. Like, maybe they can't lie. They just, I can't do it. But I'm saying, generally speaking, that has failed as an idea that they can't do blank.
The only thing with his statement and the counterpoint to that that I would use is we've said the same thing about cars, right? Like, oh, a car will never go this fast or will never be able to do this or complete this task or drive itself or whatever. And they all did all those things, right? And we were wrong about a lot of those things. But the point he's bringing up about sentience and emotional. Emotionality and creativity is like us saying right now, and maybe this is wrong, like, a car will never go to the moon. That's like, you know what? I'm saying, but to your point, we don't know that on a long enough time frame, a car may go to.
The moon, take the time frame and shrink it.
Yes.
And everything that you think is not gonna happen will.
Like, literally.
Well, yeah, I thought that too. About flying cars with the Jetsons, and they said, 2020.
Dude, we ain't even cars is.
You don't need a fly.
It's not about needing.
I saw. And they're not here. It's because you don't really.
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to produce flying cars.
Yeah.
Like, oh, yeah, they can hover.
When you go back to pr, would you rather load on a commercial plane, or would you rather just take your Camry, hit fly mode, and just go there?
I actually drive a Porsche.
I'm not talking about you in general.
I'm talking.
You know what?
All right, Thomas, what do you think we should do?
I think the answer is on your shirt.
Yeah, let me. Yeah, let me. Okay, so where we. What happened in three? Okay. Thought process. Number one was in a highly uncertain environment. Can you model with the world? Would you know? Number two was realizing, we don't really know. I gave you a question on this third point. What do we do with AI? All of you knew or had an idea. Exactly. Nobody said, I don't know. You remember in that first thought experiment, you had a very difficult question answered, and you said, okay, how do I understand reality? You mapped your solution onto reality. Number two is, not so fast. We need to be humble. So you had a lesson that I gave you a third example of what you do with AI, and all of you confidently told me you have models of what to do. So the question is, does any human or do any of us here at this table know what we should do? Or are we actually more intelligent saying, actually, we have no idea, like, literally no clue what to do?
I think that the answers that we gave are given with the understanding that they're just like suggestions suggested, suggested and explored.
There's no way.
There's no way to solve a problem without the introduction of potential solutions. So I don't know. Well, potentially, the always right answer doesn't even offer any speculative potential for a solution. Does that make sense? Like, we could have all just said, I don't know, and then we would have just moved on to point four without any discussion.
Yeah. So the key thing here is that not knowing is a form of knowing.
Know what you don't know.
And so the. The sober contemplation as a species is we so Badly want to know, or to think we know, or to model out these possibilities. We blind ourselves to the real possibility that we don't know. So here's the hypothesis. There is no existing form of human thought that answers this question. So when you say, what happens when you give birth to superintelligence? You can't pull up to democracy and say, hey, democracy, what do we do? You can't go to capitalism and say, how do we do it? You can't go to Christianity or Islam or Hinduism. You can't go to Wokeism. You can't go to. You can't go to any construction of human thought that gives you an actual answer for this moment. As a species, we don't have models of reality that answers this question.
Let me ask you a question.
Let's say we asked the super intelligence that they just invented the quantum computer, right?
And you say, what?
How did the universe come to be? And what's the purpose of life?
And it spits out an answer.
Who's to say that's the right answer? Just because it's a quantum computer, how would one know that's even though, quote, right answer.
Yeah. So we wouldn't, right? So the realization here is that in a deficiency of knowing what to do, the first is acknowledging a species. We've never been through this before. This thing is more intelligent than we are. It's like we need to take stock. So if there's no existing solution in the world, and we all know, we read the headlines, we hear what the discussion is, China's got an idea, the US has an idea, everyone's got different ideas. So I want to propose to you, I have a suggestion of what we do, and it's don't die like that. Don't die is the answer for what a species does when it gives birth to superintelligence.
That's not only that, it's the answer to what a species does, period.
The way this works is don't die is a human narrative. Like we understand don't die. It's also an ideological system. So its peer is democracy and capitalism and socialism. And it is an operating system of society. It is a mathematical construct, it is computational in nature, and it is based on physics, entropy. So it is a ideology that maps to all the layers of intelligence. Human storytelling, computational abilities in computers, mathematics, physics, and a practical reality. It's a theory that combines all intelligence. So when AI, we give out the AI, we say existence is the highest virtue, and we build don't die across the fabric of all of intelligence that becomes the primary operating system for the human race.
And artificial intelligence.
Exactly. All intelligence, all of biology, all of humans, all animals, all the planet. Like, we build don't die as the computational narrative physics substrate of our existence.
The way that I understand don't die on a shorter time frame or scale makes sense to me. But from a long term time frame and computationally and mathematically, the death of even a mass of humans just is replaced by reproduction of more humans. And so like, so like, the only don't die I can think of that would fit the conversation we're having right now is making sure that the species as a whole does not die. Does that make sense? Yeah, like, it's very, like I'm able to apply the learnings that we had from earlier today to my own life in a don't die setting to like, increase my longevity. But like, when we're talking about fighting against the humanoid matrix agents, like, I would just say we'd be saying don't die as a species. And those feel different. So which one are we, which one are we not dying on?
It's don't die across all the layers of intelligence. So it's basically, you're going to war with death, you're going to war with entropy. I mean, you can't stop entropy, but you're going to, you're going to war with death and all of its causes. That when you can't see the future, when a species is more intelligent than you are, you can no longer express aspirations like I have these goals or these ideas, because we no longer own those narratives. When humans are the apex people on this planet, we said we want to do this thing and that thing. We have these goals. But when we're in this new emergent AI world, we don't even know what our goals are. We don't know what we can aspire to. So we're saying this is the ultimate expression of humility. I just don't want to die. I don't know what happens. And now once we secure that, we can then go back to a new game of like, okay, now we're all enhanced. We have like, we're all integrated with this technology now. We can say we have these really great aspirations. But until then, as a species, you're just trying to lock in, not dying. You don't want to. So don't die individually, don't kill each other, don't destroy the planet, and align AI with don't die.
Two questions about AI and general super intelligence. Let's Just say there were no more.
Homo sapiens on Earth.
What's even the point of super intelligence and AI? Doesn't it exist right now?
No, it's don't. It's don't die.
Right, but what are they? Who are they existing with each other without.
Impossible to say.
But.
But every species thus far is like self preservation is. Is consciously or not priority number one. Can I ask you something? Do you think don't die is impossible?
Oh, I think it's entirely possible.
Okay. We're made of stardust. Stars die.
Yeah.
Are we arrogant to think that we even stand a chance to do something that something as powerful as a star could not do? Even the universe in itself one day will collapse on itself, theoretically, and die in essence. Feels a little optimistic.
Yeah. Yes. I mean, certainly if we manage to not die in the next ten years, 100 years. Thousand years. Ten thousand. A hundred thousand. That's a lot of time to discover new things about reality that we were known. If we look back to history, you see, every era, they imagine what they could potentially do. It was always constrained to their own knowledge. So what you're imagining now is basically with our knowledge, but we know that there's been a continued expansion of more knowledge. We don't know where we're at in that curve. So in a hundred thousand years, like even 100 years, we may have a wildly different understanding of reality, like so far that we can't even comprehend it.
No. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
At what point does simplifying life to don't die become a regression of the evolution of the human mind? Where, like, that's where we started, right? Like we started as the original Homo sapiens with that exact motto in mind. Then became these, like, super sentient doctors, you know, disease killers, patrons of all of the arts and cultures and space and Mars and trying to inhabit these new places. Do you feel like don't die ever is such a regression back to simplicity that if we point all of our human intellect and potential at just simply surviving, we're now depriving ourselves of the once loftier goals that we had as a human species. Like during this current time frame in exchange for staying alive for something greater down the road? Does that make sense?
So the way to put this in context is when Covid hit and it was this unknown thing, right? People were dying in the street and the world freaked out, right? Like we didn't know. But everything in the entire world shut down. All of our business meetings, all of our life plans, everything shut down overnight in a way that like was unimaginable to us. That's how bad humans don't want to die. We're willing to shut down every game. We're willing to play. None of it mattered. We just didn't want to die. And then we figured out it wasn't as bad as we thought. People broke off into camps like mask. No mask. Vaccine. No vaccine whatever. That level of intensity of when it comes crashing down. So the question is, how serious is the situation right now with AI? Are we in absolute lockdown mode to secure our existence as a species? Or is it kind of like eh, like we're kind of cool, we can carry on. And the hypothesis is the technology's moving forward at a certain speed of like we don't know. It is an absolute lockdown mode. As a species, the only thing we can tackle is we don't want to die. That's it. Like we can't see anything else.
Okay, let me challenge you with this. So if we talk about lockdown as as a result of the speed of evolution of AI, how many people have died at the hands of other humans, the species that which we're trying to protect over the last 10 years versus how many people have died at the hands of AI? Not talking about potential, I'm talking about actual death. Right, so like on purpose, like. Yeah, like murder, like war, whatever. Right. So. So I think that we should be more ferocious about lockdown from other humans. Right, Then lock down from it. AI's killed no one. It's just Grock makes no.
It has.
Yeah.
How many who?
Not a lot. It's convinced some people to kill themselves.
Convince people to kill themselves. That's a reactionary death. That's not AI killing. I mean, I mean AI actually killing people.
How would it. What's the vehicle?
Well, there's currently AI programmed drones. There's AI drones that have the capability to knock out air defense defenses. Correct, Correct. But what I'm saying is zero. Right. So like. Well I understand what you're saying. We have no. It turns into another, I don't know scenario because we haven't run into any scenarios where we need to protect ourselves from AI currently.
So it's, it's a, it's a contemplation of like what AI will do, but it's also a question, what will humans do with AI? So once you give AI to humans, like we're pretty good at war. We're going to point it at war power like we, like we do. So it's not just a question of like, is AI dangerous? It's. Are humans dangerous with AI? The answer is yes.
Yes.
So this is why I'm saying that the problem is not just an open question of what happens. It's that we as a species are at each other's throats. We have our fingers on weapons that annihilate the species, and we're threatening to use them all the time. So we're at this absolute critical time as a species where we may destroy ourselves, AI may turn out to be bad or good, whatever, but then we have all these existential problems and there's nothing that unites us as a species. We're all just gonna like, fight it out. And so what I'm suggesting is. So let's just take a step back and say there's two basic theories on why societies exist, whether intelligent exists about the galaxy. So the Dark Forest theory says that when a civilization gets to a certain level of intelligence, like when it breaks out, it hides itself from other civilizations because it doesn't want to be threatened. Right.
I love this theory.
Yeah. The other side of the equation is the Great Filter Argument, which is that societies reach a level of intelligence and they can't help themselves but destroy themselves. Right? So we can pattern match that one because we kind of see ourselves of like we fuck around with destroying our existence. Like we're right, like we're kind of willing to do it. We do it in small ways, like small smoking, drinking, like we do that. We do it in ways to our planet. We do it in ways in wars. We're very flippant with our existence. So let's just say both sides. Either societies destroy themselves or they hide themselves. But as far as we know, we can't detect life anywhere if we haven't been able to detect it.
That's not entirely true. Okay, NHI, UAPs, I'm pretty into the conversation and like, I think we're on the cusp of realizing that there's an intelligence higher than humans. I mean, it's not actually, I wouldn't even. I wouldn't even say we're on the cusp. We know that there are intelligence higher than humans within our own orbit.
Well, we don't. We don't know. You can say whatever you say right now. We don't know. We don't have Believed Truth Orbit.
Okay, true, true, true. But if anyone.
I know where you're at.
But if anyone at this table can explain to me how some of the craft in the sky move the way they do. Yeah, you can't you can't like.
But I also. If you saw an SR71 Blackbird in 1967, you wouldn't be able to explain that either. It's faster than, it's faster than this. Well, I'm 70 odd years in the future. The military could have.
It's a very fast plane.
No, no, no. What I'm saying is this is another you don't know thing. The military exists 70 to 100 years.
Ahead of where you are and even people in the military people are being crazy question.
They're not. Some of them are very.
No, they're Evish people.
While that's true, the, the technology that we're talking about and describing and have caught on multiple modules is not 70 to 100 years in the future. It's hundreds if not thousands of years more advanced than our.
But based on this conversation, who knows what 70 to 100 years in the future looks like? It could be exponential difference based on government secrets.
True.
I'm not saying, I'm not saying I'm not.
I guess I just like, I think it's something you, you should consider in the prompts is like I definitely don't believe we're the apex species on this planet. I just, I just do.
Not on this planet.
Yeah, and that's, that's even I say on this planet. Like I, I think it's something to consider because we can speculate to the year 2500 but like I don't even think, I don't even think that matters when we're talking. Yeah, yeah. Like if there are people even in the year 2500, you still have like interdimensional ethereal beings traversing dimensions. Like what are we. What are you talking about? You know.
Yeah.
Who are also probably trying not to die.
Yeah. Yes. If you let's just like trace throughout history. So if you say like what are some big inventions to change the course of history? Say fire, the will, you know, agriculture. Right. Like these big, big things. Language. Yeah.
Some consider printing press for number one.
You know, cars, automobile or Internet is my favorite question.
I mean and then number one, the real number one. Nuclear. Nuclear energy.
Yes. Like these big things that even democracy. Like when the US when the thirteen colonies said hey, we're going to be done with the Monarch in the US we have this new form of governance. We're going to vote people in. Right. When Adam Smith said hey, there's this idea of capitalism, the invisible hand and markets. So these ideas, they rise and they open up a new era of potential because they're ideological constructs. And so in the moment, the question is, do we as a species have the ideas at our fingertips that answer this moment so we can say yes? Like all you're saying, we can say yes to these things and we can just carry on. The other question is maybe we don't have the answers at our fingertips and maybe a new ideology needs to emerge that answers these new realities. Right? Have, like, is, is democracy the best technology ever built? Is capitalism the best? Have we stopped in building ideologies? Is that technology now done? And now we just say we're going to apply it in perpetuity? Or like it's always happened, new ideologies emerge in its place to answer the questions of that time and place. So the question is like, are there next versions of ideologies or are we basically good? That's, that's the contemplation.
There's always next version for sure.
So what are they? Like what right now? What could potentially succeed what we have now? Like what. What are the ones you see out there?
Anything. Anything that leads to unity, like Mike said, would be a pretty powerful ideology.
And the most convert or inverse from our current.
Yeah, like, if you like, like any sort of. I think one universal religion could be pretty effective, perhaps.
You know what, that already exists. Don't Die is already the universal religion that everyone practices. Not just in Islam. You're praying a couple times a day, right? Don't die. You're basically doing it every second of every day. Is your practicing. Your body does it automatically. It already is the unifier. It is the one thing in existence that every human agrees upon. And it's not don't die in 20 years, it's don't die right now. That is the only thing I was.
Just thinking to myself quickly of why this needs to be so complicated, right. It seems like such a simple thing, right? Like the idea of one wanting to prolong and preserve their existence on this planet. And even if it was as simple as just because you want to see what the future holds, like, that seems to be motivation enough. But the more I think about it, it's clearly, and you can tell by looking at other humans not motivational enough to get people to preserve their livelihood on this planet. So, like, what is the core motivation going to be that's going to get people to give up the pleasures of this world to not die and have that be the religion?
Because.
Because religions, real religions have real motivations. I want to go to heaven. I want to spend the rest of my My eternity alongside my loved ones in heaven. Right.
That, that is. That is don't die. Religion is don't die. I mean, it's. It's called eternal after life.
Right.
Like this. Whatever higher self is projecting to us, whatever this is, is, is. Is already doing that. Allegedly. In theory. Like, I think you're. I mean, the thesis makes sense, like. Brian, we all agree, but that is the ultimate question. What can you say to people to get them to actually subscribe to it? Because it's hard. It's hard and it's boring and it's. It's, it's. It's. Yeah, it's just like. It's all the things that, like, humans aren't, like, really naturally accustomed to.
Yes.
And.
Or are you trying to get people.
To just be more conscious.
Conscious about it and live more outwardly?
Yeah.
So, you know, letting that unite them.
Yeah. This is why, like a awareness of model creation. Right. So the fact that you want an objective is a model. Right. The fact that you want, like, you want something to live for, that is a. Like in the 25th century, they'd be like, that's so weird that they needed a model. They went and needed a motivation to understand reality. Like, that's weird.
So do you believe that the idea of a goal. Or let's just say that. Do you believe that the idea of goals become not part of the human consciousness?
This is what I'm suggesting is this moment invites a level of humility that breaks your brain. Like, if you guys realize your thought patterns, you can't even sit for one second in not knowing. You are panicking because you want to have a goal. You want to know. You want to imagine. You want.
Know what?
No, imagine what?
I don't.
Goals. Like, it's like, what are we. That's not what he's saying. What are we gonna do?
I think it's what he's saying. That's not. That's not what I heard. What's the motivation?
Yeah, but I don't. Yeah, but I don't think he's necessarily wrong for the average person. I think. I think we have a desire to know. I think that that's part of the human function, is to try to understand our purpose, understand the purpose of our species. Understand. You know, it's. It's that desire of knowledge is what separates us from apes who simply live to reproduce and not die.
Right.
And so that's why I asked earlier about the regression. How much of don't die is technically a regression from the expansiveness of the human mind and our dedication to furthering our intelligence.
Let me give you an example. Okay, so let's just say one enjoys eating food. Let's just say like, I want to have burger, fries, you know, shake, because it's enjoyable and like, whatever. It doesn't matter that much life like, blah, blah. Okay, I do that. That is built upon the premise that if I do that, I'm going to have some kind of pleasure. I have like a goal to achieve that you would need. I don't. Yeah, I don't eat meat only for. It's an ethical choice because I think AI will become sentient in some form or fashion on some kind of time frame. I think it's possible that it wouldn't come sent it. It'll be like, how do you intelligent beings treat other intelligent beings that are less intelligent than you?
Oh, and I think they're like, that's really interesting.
And like, I think we want to have a good track record. I think we want to be interesting, a benevolent species that is aware of lesser intelligence. And so, you know, it's like that is. I fully acknowledge. I don't know that exactly is exactly the case. Right. I don't know if that's going to be their analysis. I don't know.
Makes sense.
That's crazy.
But I think it's like.
And hold on, so let me better understand. It's your. It's your goal to. Or your current pursuit, model goal, whatever you want to call it, to not be judged poorly by this AI. God.
I think we want to be what we want AI to become.
Wow, so you don't want AI eating humans.
I mean, this is the thing, right? Like we, we're, we're. We're building AI and we're being like, hey, AI, do everything we tell you. But we're not very like. But we can't even tell you what we want, right? We all have different opinions. And so there's like, there's no way to program an AI what we want and don't want. You have all these branch problems. Don't die. Is the simplest way to be like, okay, here we're going to level set. We don't want to die. Now there's like ethical problems. Like if a mother's giving birth to a child, does she die? Don't die, right? You have the trolley problems you have. It doesn't limit ethical quandaries, but what it does say is it reduces the complexity of our existence to say like, can we be sober enough in this moment? To make an assessment. And so what does these thought experiments do? And this is why it takes two hours to get there. When you fully sit in the situation, you realize that everything you think, everything you want, everything you feel, every goal you have, every model of reality you have may not be accurate. Of the future. You may have no idea whatsoever.
It might not be accurate now. It's not even the future. It may not be accurate now. I mean, I mean, as ironic as it sounds, this, this conversation is the premise of the movie the Matrix. It really is. Okay, like we, we are having a conversation right now of whether we want.
To choose to eat the slop. Slop.
Right? Which this isn't. It's delicious. Kudos to the chat. He's very, very tasty.
It's very good.
Or be the guy who says ignorance is bliss. Ignorance is bliss. I just want to eat the steak. And that's. And that's what he does. And that's really a beaut. That movie is obviously so incredibly ahead of everything, right? And such a representation of this very conversation we're having. Like, do I want to be ignorant to the potential, you know, differences in the world and the potential, the fact that my interpretation of the world is completely incorrect and I'm just going to enjoy the pleasures of this world as much as I can before I check out or before AI checks me out? Or do I want to fight it as hard as humanly possible, not die and eat the proverbial very delicious slop? Right. Like that's really what this conversation is. Not to say that it was inspired by that in any way. It's interesting as to how it was creatively conducted by way of that movie. It's interesting.
So the proposal, we can wrap up the conversation. The proposal in this conversation is to achieve a level of self awareness of the models you have of reality and then to pressure check those to say, do we think they're correct or do we think that they basically have run their course and new things will emerge in their place? Is it possible that Don't Die is the new ideology that emerges in the world? Christianity is not an economic system. Christianity is a religious framework and democracy is the way we do governance. It's not an economic system. Don't Die is a religious framework. It is an economic system, it is a political system, it is a computational system and it is a based upon math and physics.
How is it a governance system?
That's right. So, for example, if one cigarette costs you 20 minutes of life, you now can assign everything an actual Die score. So now we pattern match that to a kid's school lunch in America, Piece of pizza, chocolate milk, canned vegetables. You could quantify the die score. You can pattern match it to planet Earth and say, a coral reef is important for a healthy marine environment. If the coral reef dies, marine life also goes away. That is a form of dye. And you can take it to anything in society. You can measure die in a precise fashion if you just measure it. And that's why it's don't die. It's not live long, it's don't die because you could quantify it. So the goal here is that don't die becomes the world's most influential ideology by 2027. And 2027 tracks with the growth of AI that it basically says in parallel, new ideas about existence need to emerge with this technology. So the goal is like, there's some critical number of us, like a million of us or 10 million or a billion of us, to say we're not going to die. And that starts with going to bed on time and exercising and eating well. It extends to what we feed our kids at school. It extends to how we treat the planet. It extends to in AI companies. When you build AI, it extends to politics, it extends to socialism. He tends to all aspects of life.
How does it apply to something like management natural resources and increase in gross domestic product? Like when you say governance, Right? Like, how can it cover every aspect of governing a nation?
Yeah, so you could do models like, so I. I become the most person in the world, right, Through a process of. I measure the biological age of every organ in my body. I take all the science, I apply the science, and we try to slow down my speed of aging and reverse aging damage. You take the same process and apply it to planet Earth. We measure Earth with billions of data points. You take the science to say, what is a sustainable biosphere on planet Earth? And you can start modeling out. We don't know everything, but you can say, we need the following things. That heats up too much. We're in trouble. It's too cold, we're in trouble. If we don't have enough marine environment, we're kind of in trouble. What are some basic parameters? You measure, apply the science, measure, apply the science, and repeat again and again. So these systems where you're doing it individually, collectively on the planet, and with AI, even AI systems, you can do don't die. Where if I type in AI, something like, how do I create mass destruction? Via whatever angle the AI system needs to be programmed to not let that die happen.
But even Earth will die no matter what.
Sure, over some time frame, but I.
Think that timeframe is relevant regardless because, like, the end game is still. It's inevitable. Like death is. I don't want to hurt your feelings, man, but it certainly seems like death is inevitable no matter if you're a ant, a homo sapien, a planet, or a star.
So if he were to put the word yet at the end of the sentence, would you be a little bit more comfortable with it?
No, it sounds good.
So the question. So I.
It's nice.
So for Sesni, but don't die sick.
He's right.
No, me too. But I agree. But what I'm saying is, like, it seems like I've heard him explain on others. I don't think don't die is a eternity. Plea. I just think it's. I just think it's. I just think technically.
I said is. I says it's. It's impossible, Brian. It's impossible. And you said it wasn't.
Yeah. So from. From your vantage point, from the knowledge Homo sapiens have in this time and place, we model that out to be impossible. Right. But if you add, like we build on the. We bring these AI systems online and they continue some kind of improvement curve. We don't know what reality looks like.
Yeah, that is true.
And so the question may. Like we. We have these models. So, like, we've modeled up the world to like, put certain time frames on the. The. Like, we have a couple. We have like 4 billion years left in the Earth. Right. If we're debating whether or not we have a home for 4 billion years, let's take that gamble right now. Are we good to not have a nuclear war through the end of the year? Our timescales are so short and we have our fingers in the trigger. So if we have 4 billion years to contemplate that we need a new planet, I'll take that deal. The statement I'm making is we have the absolute pressing questions right in front of us. From nuclear warfare to our. Our Earth not sustain us, to AI coming alive. Like, we have all these problems, but.
I guess my block, My block is still the same. How arrogant are we to think that unlike literally everything in the universe, including the universe, we cannot die? And also don't die. Begs the question, what does it mean to be alive? What is life? And I'm sure you. Yeah, that's been asked you before. What would you say that is?
The first thing is if you ask, if you go Back to the year zero, and you start asking people, what is the purpose of life? You ask the same question every year for the past 20, 25 years, you're gonna have a different answer every year. Right. Humans will construct it. Now, the same is true with us. So the meaning of life question doesn't give you truth. It's just a mirror of the social, cultural, time frame.
I'm not asking the meaning of life. I'm asking you what life is. Yeah, what is life? It would.
Don't die.
What does that. What does that mean? Because, you know, again, don't die. I'm sure, like, a devout Christian would sit here and be like, I'm not going to die. Maybe this body dies. But, like, my soul lives on my eternal afterlife.
So.
So what is. What is. What is life?
Yeah. And I think it's the coolest question in existence. I think we all want to ask that question. You can't ask that question if you're not. If you're dead, like, the ability to ask it is such a privilege. It means we're not dead. And we get to think and explore and contemplate and construct and be creative. So all I'm arguing is not that we have the answer on the meaning of life. I'm just saying that existence is the highest virtue for what species?
Like an AI supermodel would also probably subscribe to don't die, but then what does it mean that the AI is alive? And what does a death look like for AI unplugging it? Like, what is that like, Like.
Yes.
No.
I don't know.
I agree. It's. It's complicated.
God help me. In a practical sense, I think it's.
Funny that, like, healthcare industry is really just like sick care. But, like, don't die is actually probably like, healthcare. Will there be, like, don't die centers?
Don't die.
Like, I was gonna suggest that to you. I think you should make a campus with people who subscribe to the ideology and like, and just, dude, make it the dopest place ever where everyone there is just trying to live forever.
But I'm sure it's on your roadmap because I do think people will have to struggle to pay rent less and less as time goes on. More or less. As far as, like, they don't have to work in factories, and maybe they'll get some. And so they will just try to, like, don't die.
And so, yeah, what does that look like?
As far as, like, so, yeah, I.
Went to the pyramids with Brian Johnson.
You'Re going to the pyramids.
Yeah.
It's like, yes.
What do you think it means to be alive?
My conscious self has produced different answers multiple times. I went through a time frame of 10 years of my life where I was desperate to commit suicide because I was depressed. So in that 10 year time frame when I was in a certain state, I desperately wanted to not have consciousness. Now I really want consciousness so I can look back through my life. I've had so many different answers to that question depending upon my age situation. So I basically am open to the answer. I never really know. I never know why I want life other than I just don't want. I actually did want to die. Like existence is so complicated. And so like the moment you step into the territory of saying this is the answer, I'm very skeptical. Like we don't even know ourselves from moment to moment we change so much, that's for sure.
I mean I can, I can definitely relate to that.
We live within our conscious experience in ways that escape our awareness. Like you guys are, you're in patterns. You're the thought patterns and behavioral patterns you're not even aware of. Now I can see this, that had this, that's happened so many times. I'm in patterns too. And so this entire conversation is basically an invitation to you to realize you are a pattern not of your choosing. You are a pattern because you exist. And humans, like we digest patterns and we mimic patterns, but to basically realize you're a pattern, you have to then challenge everything you understand about yourself. You have to just realize like everything I think I know is just a pattern I've copied. It's not something that is truth. And so this basically says like we are patterns are now antiquated. Like as a technology, our patterns serve their purpose. Our meaning making games, our ideas about reality, our objectives. It's old technology. We don't know if they're going to carry forward. And that's the invitation, a deep, deep humility to realize we no longer know what's going on, we can't see the future. And so in doing that we're much better off being soft in our opinions. Otherwise if we cold too hard, we may, we may mess it up. If we superimpose our patterns on our new reality that doesn't reflect that anymore. We're antiquated ideas and intelligence relative to this AI and that's like this super sobering, challenging thought process. If you see how hard you want to hold on to these constructs and.
Which ones you should be gripping onto for dear life, you know what I'm saying? Like, just the idea that since we're ignorant to this new advent, that we should abandon the old patterns and old truth hoods of life before it is also too much of an assumption, right? Like, what things do we want to grab as hard as we can and hold on to? Like, you know, empathy and caring for each other and love. Like, the things that, like, shouldn't. We shouldn't abandon, right? Like you're even seeing. It's not even just AI. Like it's everything. It's our new political landscape, it's the new business landscape in the world, right? Content creators are the new celebrities and the new thought leaders and landscape layers of the world now. So the whole world is changing AI, regardless of AI, the whole world is shifting very quickly, as it always does. But right now, maybe at a level faster than at other times, what things do we want to hold on to? Like, what things do we want to bring with us into the new, into our new reality?
So the reason why I don't think that's wise is we all agree upon don't die. Every human agrees upon that.
Not Elon Musk.
The moment, we'll see. So Elon is still alive. He's not dead. So he's chosen to not die for now. For now. That's the same thing. It's don't die right now, nothing to do with tomorrow right now. So in, in that contemplation, right? The moment you say, when you're not dead, you say, then I will do the following. If you even say love, what does love mean? There's no way to measure love, right? Someone's love is different than another person's love. Is it tough love? Is it? Is it romantic love? Is it? And so here's the point is you step one layer above and now you've got a reason to kill each other. Whereas don't die is a simple. Everyone agrees. So there's literally nothing the human race agrees to except for don't die right now.
Hierarchy of needs. Like, you're even. They don't even talk about don't die. But like, that's really the main one before shelter, sex, love, food, not water.
And we think love is safe, but love is not safe. Love. Love creates murder.
Can I ask you a question?
This is like my sound silly, but I'm genuinely curious. Like, are you disappointed that you're like, human and like, you're not a computer?
No.
Like, seriously, like the fact that you have emotions and you're Susceptible to, like, depression, anxiety and stuff like that. Like, would you like to be. To not have those things?
And.
And would you like to get to a point where, like, to be a perfect human and not feel those things or you. You enjoy the humanity?
Yeah. So I think it's like the coolest questions, right? So let's do that. Let's go to Homo erectus again. And we say, all right, Homo erectus, tell us, like, what is the size of existence? Like, tell me everything you know about existence. Right? They'd be like, well, like, you know, hill and like. Right. But they wouldn't be able to say, okay, let me tell you. There's a microscopic world of atoms and molecules. It goes down to, like, quarks. There's a universe of this size, right? And we think this. They wouldn't say, there's actually these invisible waves, like radio waves and electromagnetic. They wouldn't say, you can build this technological substrate that allows you to speak to anyone on the planet in real time. So. Right. Their understanding of awareness is so narrow. Right. So your question, what I heard you say to me is, hey, Brian, what do you think the size of existence is? And I'm saying, once you lock in with AI, I think what the pursuit comp. What our pursuit becomes if we're not dead is we want to expand conscious existence.
Yeah, right.
Like, that's the game. Like, right. If we just say, like, exactly. If we say, like, okay, we know what it means to be happy and sad, fall in love, succeed, fail. Like, a hundred things we can feel. And we spend our lives trying to do those things. Like, it feels good to get a follower. It feels good to get a compliment. But then what if conscious existence were a million times bigger? Right? That's the coolest question. All we care about is our conscious experience. And so the whole conversation here is that is the coolest and most motivating question in existence. To accept that, you have to acknowledge that we're in a pretty serious situation. We don't want to die, and we're kind of a violent species. We kind of have our fingers on the trigger in very serious ways. We can't predict it. So it makes practical sense. The only practical sense that makes it do is we'd say, let's lock in. As a species, we need to keep our worst selves at bay. We know we're violent and terrible to each other and ourselves, so we have to lock in and cooperate on something. And no ideology does that. Like, religions basically say, like, I'm right, you're Wrong. Yeah, exactly. If you don't agree with me, like trouble. And then you have different forms of government, you have different forms of politics, but it's all very combative. I'm right, you're wrong. Don't die does not say that. Don't die says everyone's right and we can actually come together. And it's a robust. It's the most robust ideology in existence because again, it plays narrative, practical operating system, math, computation and physics. Everything has a place to play where others are just very narrow in their application. This is full stack.
It's so elevated.
Yeah, it's a.
It's an extremely elevated thought process for an extremely non elevated human species. And once again, to revisit it in a, in a closing counterpoint from my end is the battle in trying to overcome human desire for simplistic desirability through way of power grab. First and foremost, more than anything, sex, food, power grab comforts is an insurmountable pursuit. If you try to bring everyone, I believe you have the ability to bring a very, very selective, highly intelligent few who want to expand their life, who want to expand their lifespan, live better, explore consciousness, maybe through way of psychedelics, maybe not, whatever, right? But to try to go and tell Putin, you know what I'm saying, that it's very important that him and the American people get along because we're gonna live forever and expand consciousness. He wants as much land and as much booze as humanly possible. Right? Like he don't die. You're not selling it to him, dude. You're not even selling it to Trump. You know what I'm saying? Like it's just not gonna. So I sat here with you all day today. I love everything you're saying. Truthfully. I truthfully, like I'm going to walk out of here a smarter, more focused person. Especially in this end piece about questioning the constructs of reality, which is something I've forgotten to do time and time again is just so important to read Descartes and to read all these wonderful philosophers that have said this since the beginning of time.
Right.
But like the idea of trying to apply it to a very underdeveloped frontal lobe species.
Yeah. The thought that keeps coming to my mind is like, you're like, you're super ahead of our century. Like I don't know how far ahead, 100, 200 years. Because the few things that we even mentioned that would need to happen for that to happen. The don't die mission is one unity. You need some sort form of unity.
Which is go on Twitter.
It's just. It's just impossible. It's just impossible.
It's just impossible. Because of another thing I said at the moment. We are just too flawed of a species. We just. We just are. And I said earlier, like, everything that you think is impossible, technology wise, is. Is not. And it probably will happen. Like, imagine the craziest thing. There's a chance it'll happen, and then I'm sitting here like, well, not dying feels impossible. Again, I agree with the thesis.
It just.
It. Maybe I'm too simplistic and basic in my, like, model that I feel it's incredibly idealistic.
Well, even if that's the case, at least every day, you'd be living in a way that benefits everybody. Like, they say, like, shoot for perfection. At least you'll land at.
But what Mike just says, like, wow, is it.
No, no, no.
But worth it for me.
Certainly. It is if.
If you're.
You're. You've told me many times your goal is to live as long as you.
150. No, I said 150.
Right.
What.
What.
Whatever the. The number is.
That is the number.
Right. Okay. The only way you're getting there is through use of his processes and systems. Right. Through diet. Things we talked about earlier. Yeah, that stuff I agree with. I just think I've had trouble applying it like you did to governance, to these other things.
And once that's how elevated it is. Yeah, dude, you're, like.
You're, like, potentially centuries ahead of, like. Like, in 200 years, like, I don't give a fuck. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna live my life. I'll try to live as long as possible, but I'm gonna live my life in 200 years. They may look at you and be like, that guy was onto it, and we're applying his practices now.
Yeah, maybe you'll be.
Yeah, essentially, like, you'll be the guy. You'll be the Copernicus, which is sick, because I saw your Netflix documentary. You've always thought of yourself as, like, kind of that. A thought leader like that. And I think. I think you could do it.
You.
Brian.
Brian, you should design some outfits that we can picture for, like, 200 years. Because I think that helps impact pictures, like, in an outfit way. Yeah, you guys should give a bunker.
No, you should get one. Because your don't die desire is like, you know, you might have to. You might have to hunker in your bunker. Yeah.
Mike, to your point about not getting everyone on board, I like to draw a parallel and think of capitalism where basically you have a game and you've given people a number and everyone plays it and we don't ask people to play it, but it becomes more beneficial to play it.
That's fair.
So we acknowledge that humans are flawed.
Yeah.
And it's very difficult to change that. But if you give them a game and you give them incentives, so like a don't die government or political system will look like some politician wants their region to have a higher don't die score than someone else. So you basically take the ideas of what makes money so attractive and then you apply that to don't die. So how can you use don't die to be an incentive? So how can you make money by being more don't die or get more followers?
No.
Well, if you play it simply on power and power only, or as one of the incentives and you bring it back to an old school school of thought, you give the power to the elders. And so there's a benefit in being the oldest person in your region.
Well, there's a movie that's your comparison.
Your comparison makes, makes a lot of sense. It's really hard because what I mentioned as well, dude, like, we're so short sighted. We're so short sighted.
So you know, like again, like I'm.
Trying to get to tomorrow.
Yeah.
So here's, here's the thing that bridges your concerns. So like we've already made significant strides on don't die, where just a few years ago it was cool to sleep under your desk and brag that you had gone two nights without sleep.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That now, right. In tech circles, it's not cool anymore. Right. It's actually kind of stupid. Right. So you don't have to understand this philosophy. You just have to change the cultural moment.
Okay, can I, can I give you guys a prompt maybe as we end here? You too, Because I really like that comparison. It helps me understand, like let's, yeah, let's compare it to capitalism and we're all, we're all playing the same game. Like let's make money.
Right.
Because it serves a very basic human need for a very basic species. In that you said it benefits us typically. Right. Like everyone, like, oh, I want more money so I can do more things and have more freedom. Perhaps you two should put your heads together. Or maybe you already have this to think about. A way where you can appeal to the basic human need of. How does this serve me beyond just I get to live longer because like, we're stuck here. Most people are stuck here in this moment right now. If you can figure out a way to answer the question of like, how does this benefit me that I can viscerally feel now I think maybe this would be a little bit easier for people to digest because I can't. I can't. I don't. Bro. I don't even. I literally don't know if I'm gonna die tomorrow.
Yeah.
And so like, I'm just not there yet. I'm not there yet. I don't know. I don't know what it is.
Yeah. It's like a few things. So one of the. I think your intuitions are right, like on a few levels. One is like wwe, that was my first experience last night being there. Right. That is a community that has agreed to an alternate reality. Like, you walk in, you know it's fake. Yep. But you know what? You don't care. Right. The storylines are so good. The camaraderie is so good. The community is so good. Human capacity to buy into shared narrative is like unparalleled. So one is like, we can't underestimate, like what's going to happen with AI and the narratives that can come up. Like we. We are fully capable to create these new narratives and we live in distorted realities. Like, we're so good at that. So that's like one you experience on a daily basis, right?
Yep.
On a second is like Ozempic is a really popular topic now. We imagine that eating food is a primary source of pleasure. Like, we love food, we want to indulge in food. We have addictions with food. With oic, you get one shot.
Yeah.
Desire to eat goes away. Right. You have changed a fundamental part of being human. You don't want to eat.
Yep.
So like, if we can change a fundamental part of our existence with one shot, and now you take more advanced biotech.
I may also, I may have a thing for you because like, again, just like you gotta appeal to the most, like, basic form of like our desires and like things we want, we. Things we want and things we don't want. You said you want the don't die movement to be what, the biggest movement.
By 2027, most influential ideology in the world.
Okay. So humans also, we're a herd species in general. We don't want to be left behind or left out. So maybe there's a chance that you just keep like plugging away and just keep getting people to join year after year. Facebook group by Facebook group by 2027. Or 23rd, whatever it is, like, essentially stick to the path and if enough people join the group where if you are not subscribed to don't die, you're going to be a fucking idiot. You're going to be left behind, essentially. And the basic human need that you're appealing to is.
Is shame.
Exactly.
Which, which if that's what it takes, who cares?
So the invitation is you guys become don't die citizens that you actually sign up. All right, so this is the pledge if you want to be a citizen. I pledge to rage, rage against the dying of the light, become a practitioner of the don't die ethos, caring for myself, others and the planet, and honor existence as the highest virtue. Because we are at war with death and its causes, building towards an infinite horizon and fighting for the freedom to exist as long as one chooses. Why? Because we have things to do tomorrow. On the eve of superintelligence, now is the time to boldly act. So that's the imitation is that we go back to the 25th century and they are looking through historic history. Who were the bravest characters of the early 21st century that represented the most beautiful elements of conscious existence of intelligent life in this part of the galaxy, that they would point to you and say they saw it, they did it. They overcame their short sighted, pleasure seeking, primitive proclivities and said we are bigger as a conscious species, that we aspire to bigger things. And that's the invitation that you guys are that right, that you see it. You've now been exposed to the ideas. You've run a couple cycles. It's going to take you some time to roll through the ideas. It just takes time. Talmadge, I think did a dozen before. I mean every time we do this, he's like, dad, I think I understand a bit more. It just takes time to really go through it. So you guys were great. You really went far in the conversation. So I appreciate you guys hanging out like. And it just takes finesse to hang with the conversation. It's very, very hard to have. So you guys did a great job. So I'm glad you were here.
Do you remember the. One of the most, one of the best questions or hardest questions you've had to answer that someone's asked you in your dinners.
Thomas, what would you say is.
It's like you said these, like, maybe initially in the first few dinners, there were a couple edge cases that you'd have to kind of figure out, but after a certain point, these are over 99% predictable. So it's like every single question that's asked that he answers, I almost have a script in my head. Like I know what he's going to say.
Yeah.
Because the questions are so predictable.
Yeah.
So I've actually hosted some of these my own and basically run the script.
That he wrote up.
That's awesome.
And it works.
So we are NPCs.
Yes.
Yeah.
Like, I don't know if you ever go to Agape, like on Sunday where Michael Brother back with. It's a non denominational spiritual center.
Yeah, yeah.
But like, bro, like people would go see you speak like weekly like if you wanted to be like a religion.
Like, but what's, what's the, what's, what's the, what is the. Like have you been asked like a hardest question or something that really got you to scratch your head or like question, like questions?
So people typically they, they want to stump me with ethical quandaries.
Okay.
So they'll say, well, they'll say something like, okay, you have $1 to spend on don't die. Do you spend it on this or that? Right. And both are like equally good or equally bad options. And so the, the premise behind Don't Die is not that we've solved all ethics and all morals. So like democracy, we said, hey, the United States of America with 13 colonies, we're going to be a union. We're going to say no to the monarch. But it wasn't like we had democracy solved. It was just like we're going in this direction because the monarch doesn't scale like a democracy scales. And now we've been fighting for democracy for 200 years. What does it mean to be a democracy? We still fight. So don't die is the same way we're going to fight over don't die. Everyone's going to have a different idea on what don't die means. But you're locked in on a new direction. And so this is the thing where, you know, in our previous conversation, just look back in time, certain ideas tried to solve the riddle of existence, right? Buddha said, it's the ego death, Eightfold path, right? Reincarnation, exit from the plane. Muhammad said, submit to God. Jesus said, I am the son of God. Mark said, class warfare. American Founding father said, democracy. People have tried to solve what is existence about? And so it makes total sense that we as a species would say, what is existence about in this moment? And we come up with a new framework and if you fast forward 5 or 10 years, it's going to be applied again. Like maybe a brand new ideology will emerge in five or 10 years that replaces don't die. It's just a temporary thing to say. How do you scaffold the human race to the next stage of the game? Yeah. So I guess we'll wrap. Typically wrap with everyone offers up something they're leaving thinking about. So help edify because like you're all trying to piece this together in your mind and you're going to leave and you're going to immediately be slammed with text messages and social media stuff. And like the idea is you're going to be like. And move up very quickly. So try to capture in this moment what are you feeling, what do you see, what do you think you see? And then give someone a shout out here, someone who said something that helped you work through your thought processes.
Well, the first one is simpler. I'm going to leave with a increased desirability to, you know, to live and to not die. Right, of course. And take some of the actions that we talked about earlier and apply them and also to continue to challenge the, the, the, the constructs of my, of my reality. Right. Like, like the things that I've been buried so deeply in for so long now, you know, and, and, and thought to be concrete maybe aren't so concrete.
Yeah. You know, just continue to put health first and your success if you put your health first and not get caught up in the primitive human emotions that we're susceptible to.
So to continue to work as.
Or work on the personal health and spread the message of wellness and consciousness and be the light, et cetera, et cetera.
Yeah.
I enjoyed hearing from everybody, different perspectives. I mean, I respect Logan's always like thinking and challenging and trying to get to the root of things. So it's always a nice kind of like reminder to like be like, okay, but like, why?
What will I leave here thinking about? I think I'm gonna continue to question why I'm having a bit of a block. Cause I have an open mind. But I think my block is that. And while I've said this a lot during this dinner is like, I agree with the thesis, but I'm wondering by subscribing to the don't die ideology, if I'm sacrificing living. And I don't know if I'm super willing to do that because I don't know if I'm sold on the belief that it is even achievable in this generation. Like, the question is like, I do want to live till I'm 150 years old, but after that. And by the way, that's a major win. But after that, I'm like, I don't know, like, let's say, hypothetically, if I could live to 250 years old, and I do it by doing the same protocol you're doing.
Yeah.
I feel like the enjoyment that I would be squeezing out of life would be less than it would be if I, if I kind of just did a looser version of what you're doing. And so I'm, I'm just gonna keep like, like having that internal dialogue with. And, and by the way, I hope, I hope, I hope the evolution comes with maturity. I said on the podcast, like, eventually I will not drink. I'm certain I'm just not there at the moment. And I hope, I hope with like, maturity and maybe a bit more like, meaning, like personal meaning, maybe I'll find reasons to fully subscribe. I like the capitalism comparison. I think that, that, that helped me understand how you two will ultimately achieve this goal because that was another block I was having in that, like, while I think the human race is beautiful in many ways, I'm also extremely pessimistic about, like, Like, I just think we're. I just think we're so flawed and like, super basic.
All you. I'll try one attempt on unblocking, like, imagine if we said to Homo erectus, like, just hold on for five years and existence is going to be spectacular. Imagine, like Homer just moving a million years through time and existing today. And homework just was like, I don't know if I want to make the trade off of, like, giving up my current form of comfort and motivation. Like, I like the way I'm doing things. And you're like, just hang with me, man. Just like, just suspend belief for just a second because in a few years time, you're going to be in this insane world. And that's what I think this opportunity is. It's not that, like, what we can do now is great, but the bet is when you're giving birth to superintelligence, existence could be like this. The most extraordinary thing to happen in this part of the galaxy, and it could be ours to experience. And if we want to actually have that chance, we need to lock it in and be like, we are going to secure this opportunity. At a minimum, like, we're going to give this a go. That's all it is. It's a bet that the future far exceeds this current state.
I agree.
So for me at least, leaving here will be more Introspective, right. In the short term, like what am I doing now for momentary pleasures that sacrificing, you know, my long term vision, you know me, right, Jorge as a long term being. And then what made me think of the most was. Wasn't even a comment. It was actually one of a first or was a second prompt. And the way you worded it, it's. I've given you imperfect information and asked you to come up with, you know, an answer. And it was really just the thought of we're always surrounded by imperfect information. We'll never get there. And so even in trying to achieve, you know, don't die and subscribing to.
That lifestyle.
Life will always be imperfect and our situations will always be, you know, imperfect ones. And it'll just be, you know, that I have to wrap my head around that and just figure out, you know, how deep I want to go with it. Because it's such a profound comment.
Yeah, cool.
I think a lot of people take for granted existence like you said, and some people just exist in the world, but I want to start to exist for a purpose and live that day by day. So every single day when I wake up, I will now start to realize why am I existing today and for what purpose?
Yeah.
Last comment. So I've been to nearly a hundred of these now and oftentimes it's like you guys can tell it's a very difficult idea to wrap your head around. And so sometimes these dinners can be hit or miss if people really get into it. And I gotta say, out of nearly 100 dinners, this is probably one of the ones I've enjoyed the most. One, probably because the camaraderie that all you guys have knowing each other, but two, because your ability to just dive into it and relentlessly ask questions, even if you seem like a. You're offending. But the reality is you need to do that to actually get to the root of it. Because it's such a complex idea. Like it's take like even after 50 dinners, I pull new things out of this. So to see you guys going into it is like, it's this invigorating thing. So I appreciated the energy.
Amazing.
Thank you.
What about one?
One skin for your skin? Just water, drink, stay hydrated.
You want to drink. He wants to take. One skin for your skin.
No, no. Tip skin, tip skin.
