Becoming Your Own Health Advocate While Building a Fitness Empire with Holly Perkins

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 94. Today I'm sitting down with Holly Perkins to discuss all things on becoming your own health advocate while building a fitness empire. Are you ready? Let's get started. Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance and movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast. What's up coach? Thanks so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson, and if this is your first time hanging out with me, thanks so much so much for joining me. I'm really excited to bring to you Holly Perkins. Now, she might be a little surprised that we pushed out the episode for Tuesday because when we originally reached out to her, we wanted to bring to you another Thursday episode because she's got a BS degree in exercise physiology and nutrition from Penn State University. She also has her CS and she is a celebrity trainer and has extensive scientific knowledge. But after talking to her, we spent so much time on the importance of being your own health advocate. And she talks so much about her story, which is so inspiring. And we talked a lot about building a business empire even during times where it seems like it's impossible. We talked a lot about living in the end and just really, she's such an all around incredible human being. It was such a great conversation. I wanted to get it out to you as soon as possible. So Holly, like I said earlier, she is a graduate of Penn State University where she did get her degree in exercise physiology and nutrition. She also is the author of Lift to Get Lean and a contributing writer for numerous magazines including Women's Health, Prevention, Self Shape and Fitness. And she has worked with world famous names including presidential candidates. You may have seen her on E. Entertainment, Extra, HSN and more. And what she shares in this episode. She talks a lot about how she has been able to really transform her life and her client's life. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that in.

Interview.

Holly, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. How are you? I'm good.

Thank you for having me. I'm super excited.

Oh, this is going to be great. Before we hit record, I can already tell we are going to have an amazing conversation. So thank you so much for Hanging out. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, I'm excited. Thank you for having me. I'm honored, for sure.

Great. So let's just go ahead and dive in. So can you share a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there?

So who I am. Oh, where do we start with that? So I. Yeah, I've been in the fitness industry for a very long time. 30 years. I've got a degree in exercise physiology and nutrition. I'm a certified strength and conditioning specialist. I'm the author of Live to Get Lean, which was a women's health branded book. And I've worked with a lot of celebrities. All of that could sound like I'm bragging, but the truth is, when you find the thing you love and you stick with it long enough, you'd almost have to be asleep to not get good at what you're doing. And I think that what has worked for me is I always followed my bliss. I love what I do, and that really helped me to become better at what I do. You know, it's just. I think it's partially a function of just kind of sticking with it and really focusing on what you love to do. And over time, it's like you build up a great resume, like I have at this point. So specifically, I help women use strength training and intentional nutrition to really transform their body so that they're able to keep up with the life that they love. A lot of women are really limited in life by their physical limitations, whatever it may be. My demographic is definitely about mid-40s and up, and that is when we start to see a lot of health implications, health challenges, a variety of disease states set in. And so I really help women use these modalities so that they have the body that they need to really lean into life.

Oh, I love that. Ok. So I have so many places. There are so many questions and places that we could go with that. But just out of curiosity, you know, from a personal standpoint, I love that you said that you live, you followed your bliss, and that really was something that, you know, kept you moving forward. But as someone that's been in the industry for 30 years, how have you reinvigorated your joy for what seems like you're doing the same thing over and over?

Oh, that's a good question. You know, it's funny. I don't ever lose my passion for this industry. I really feel I was born to do this. I love everything about the human body. I love everything about body transformation. I love everything about nutrition. So I don't think I ever lose my passion or my joy, the road or the hurdles that I've had to cross is when I physically have had hiccups and I'm tired, or I need a vacation, or I'm overworking, or I'm going at my business from the wrong energy. And when, whenever it happens that I lose my enthusiasm for this, I know it's because I need a day off. I tend to never take vacations. I tend to work seven days a week, which I would do if my body could keep up with it. So over the years, it's always just been a function of if I can't, if I find that I'm losing that joy, I need a day off. I need to get on Netflix for a few hours, I need to go visit a friend, I need to like, just check out. And inevitably that spark comes back for me.

I love that. And so, you know, you've also had lots of transitions that you, you know, in terms of lifestyles.

Right.

In terms of the way that our metabolism has, you know, grows and changes as we age.

Yeah.

In reverse. So.

You know, so I number. Yeah.

Right. Age is a state of mind, but in terms of our physicality.

Right.

How have you, have you had to face challenges with that in the fitness industry?

Oh, boy, oh boy. I've had all the challenges. So I don't want to go into all the details because that would be a whole other episode. But from a very young age, I struggled with symptoms of depression. And through the years it would be very heavy and then sometimes in certain cycles it would be more manageable. It took me a very long time to figure it out. And it took having a full on crash and burnout a few years ago where I, unbeknownst to me, had been living in an apartment with toxic mold. And I started to get biological symptoms that didn't make sense. Extreme anxiety, which I had never had in my entire life, got to the point where I was just a mess. I couldn't function, I was exhausted, I had chronic anxiety, I was having vision problems, breathing problems, and finally started working with a doctor. And it turned out the toxic mold triggered Lyme disease that I didn't even know I had completely trashed my thyroid. I now probably have lupus and had to go through several years of getting all of that figured out. I have very severe autoimmune disorder at this point because of the toxic mold. And I'm better. I'm finally on the upswing. But it was two to three years of like really figuring it out. When it was mysterious and I was like, I'm the picture of health. I eat well, I strength train, I'm knowledgeable. What is going on? And inevitably my lesson through it is every single one of us, us at some point in our life will, will experience some form of extreme stress. And if it's not your health, it could be in your personal life. And that's the human. I really believe that that's just kind of like the human evolution. And so that was mine. And I've been working through it over the past couple of years. I feel like I'm on the other side of it. But it's, it's created very permanent health management considerations. I have to live my life very differently now as a result of it.

Holly, I had no idea what a big question I was asking. I can't believe that is so. I mean, I can't.

It almost took me out. It really almost took me out.

I can't even imagine what was going through your mind as a health professional being like, what is happening to me?

Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I did every diet, thinking it was my diet. I started reducing the intensity of my workouts. I did everything. More yoga. You need to meditate, you need celery juice in the morning. I mean, I did everything, everything, everything. Aip, zero sugar, zero caffeine, zero grains, zero dairy, everything. And nothing was fixing it. And finally, doctor after doctor after doctor, I found the right one. And we did about $10,000 in blood. She's like, here are your problems. And I was like, that makes sense. So I literally, I packed up my entire apartment in Los Angeles in about two weeks, put everything in storage, packed five boxes and left. And that was two years ago. And it has been a journey back to health and journey back to like how I live my life now. And you know, it was, it was really. It almost took me out and I am now on the other side of it and I am a whole lot better as a result. I wouldn't wish this upon anyone. And I definitely do not believe things happen for a reason. I don't believe that. But I do believe we are all going to be faced with extreme stress. And how you work through it can absolutely be an incredible up levelment in your life. And ultimately, as you work through it, you will become better as a human, better as a coach, and just better in life. Like I am such a better coach as a, as a result of it now.

Oh, I can imagine. And while I actually, it's interesting that you Say that, because I definitely don't talk about, you know, everything happens for a reason. And more like, more so that there are lessons in every experience that you can take away.

So.

So I always talk about lessons or successes.

Agreed.

You're going to get both.

Yes. Yeah. A hundred percent. I so agree with you. And it's like, how can. What is the. What is the great lesson you can glean from the circumstance? Right. Because sometimes I feel like that phrase feels punishing. You're either going to get a lesson.

Sure.

Right. It sounds like it could be punishing. But the truth is, if you're able to look at your challenges from this perspective, how. How can I become better as a result of the circumstance? That can be hugely transformational. And then you can walk through anything if you look at it that way. And that really huge for me.

And something that you also said that I think it's really important, especially when we're starting to talk about what I see a lot in the self development world is this. Is this idea of it's okay to feel bad in the moment. Like, we're not trying to put whipped cream on garbage. We are still processing the challenges. Like, and you said, you know, I'm through it. I'm on the other side now. So it's not like, you know, let's find the lesson as we're solving through our, you know, sobbing in Arterios. No.

Yeah.

You still feel bad. Got to be in it.

You got to feel it to get through it. You know, I had a year of feeling like a victim. I had a year of, like, I couldn't get out of it. And so in many ways, like, I was a victim. Right. And so I had a year where, like, I just had to be in it until I got to the place where I was like, gosh darn it, I'm going to get out of this. I'm going to figure this out. And I had to be in it to get out of it.

I love it. And so, you know, just out of, just for some context and for me, at this point in your career, had you written the book, were you serving your celebrities? Like, what was your business life like while you're trying to manage and get through this health circumstance?

Well, hilariously. And this is so appropriate for your podcast, I was, like, at the height of my career. I mean, I had so many amazing things happening. I was writing my book. In fact, when the anxiety started, I was writing my book, and they gave me. I'm not a writer historically. I was a personal Trainer. And when I got the book deal, they gave me eight weeks to write a thick, real book. A real book. Eight weeks. And it took me, it took. That's two months, right? It took me three months. I had, I had to have an extra month. But that's when the anxiety was at its worst. So I was working through the anxiety. I had to. I'll never forget it was a Tuesday. I walked into one of my high profile clients and I was like, I'm done. And they were like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, I'm shutting down my personal training business for a period of time. And I literally, quote, unquote, fired all my clients for the unseeable future so that I could write the book, so that I could figure out what was going on. And then once I wrote the book and got that done, I started picking up a few more clients again and really just focusing on, you know, a few key clients basically. But at that point after the book is when I really started leaning into more of an online business because I couldn't keep up with the physical demands of being a personal trainer 10 hours a day. I probably would have done that forever because I love being in the gym with people, but I physically couldn't keep up with being at the gym at 6am in the morning to like pep talk Livia to get her to do two more reps, right? And then stress about, she's telling me about her life and I've got a client walking in the door in one more minute and I'm stressing about that. It just, it was, it was the hour to hour personal trainer life. Even though I was garnering a very impressive rate, I couldn't do it physically. And so that's when I was like, I have to start an online business and I wanted to. All these years later, the beauty is I now get, this is what's crazy to me. So that client Livia I would see six days a week for an hour four years in a row. Now my online virtual clients that live across the world, I get better results for. And so I have been able to help more women better than I did as a personal trainer because of the system that I put into place works better than the business model of being a one to one in person personal trainer. Like, I love training people and in no way am I putting down that as I wish I could do that all day, every day, I really do. But there are limitations because of the type of service you're providing. And so I've been Able to serve so many more people this year and last year I've served more people probably than I did in the 18 years prior to the past two years. It's really been remarkable.

That's amazing. And something you said, I talk about all the time is that success is a system. If you put the system in place, you can rinse and repeat and then once you do that right now, then the fun becomes. In addition to your maximum impact now the fun becomes how can you remove me from the business? Personal trainers gets forget that they're entrepreneurs in my opinion. Right. Is that you are not. People are not buying you. Right. So once you can put that system in place, then you're going to be able to, if you need to take care of your health, take care of yourself, step back. Step back to blow up.

Yeah, yeah. Or take fewer clients and just focus on the ones that you adore. It gives you opportunities. Right. And I think it's really important because we're in such a, we're in a cult, the entrepreneurial culture right now and there's a lot of sexiness behind being an entrepreneur. And I'll be honest, it's not sexy. And I, I've been very careful to really protect and encourage those who want to be a one on one personal service provider. That is ok. It is ok. Like I said, I would probably still be in the gym right now if I could because I love what I did as a personal trainer and my life has a whole lot more opportunity and flexibility and freedom. I'm in the middle of rural Pennsylvania right now where I have a studio. I'm able to be in Los Angeles, I'm able to be in Nashville, I'm able to be in New York because of the nature of my business. And so you know it. I don't know. In some ways I think being a personal trainer is pretty sexy. It's certainly in Los Angeles and dealing with celebrities, it was. But this has really given me a higher quality life, I think. And when I get the emails and the messages from people whose lives I've changed, that really helps me to realize the compromise that I've made in terms of not getting to be an in person personal trainer. And so, you know, entrepreneurial life can be good because I agree with you now it's about. I love the way that you said it because I am now just getting to the place where it's so fun to create something once and watch it continue to give you results, benefit income. Like when I did that for the first time with A digital course. And I launched it for the second time. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm able to earn a living off something I created last year. It was like the coolest thing ever.

Yeah, it's amazing.

But.

And you also still get to coach though. You're still coaching and you're still connecting with people, but now you get to do it all over the world.

Yes, agreed. Yeah, that's amazing.

Okay, so you said, you mentioned that you are in Pennsylvania. So are you doing any training at all or are you 100% online now?

I'm 100% online as of 2020, last year during COVID So Covid was my first 100% online. Prior to that, I would say I was 80% online revenue, 20% from a few key clients in Los Angeles. And so, yeah, I'm 100% online now and I will always be open to an in person, one on one client because like I said, I love it and I miss it. But it also, you quickly realize it's just not a smart investment of your time. You continue to get. You continue to realize how valuable your time is. And so now I'm like, I actually just had a very high profile client call me from Los Angeles. And basically I was very honest and I said, listen, for me to be in Los Angeles and drive to your house and train you, I cannot do it for less than $600 a session. And and while there are some people in the world that that's doable for, it's really an unrealistic business model because even if I'm making $600 a session, that session takes me two and a half hours of my time. And that's just not what I think my hourly value is. Right. And so you just get to the point where it's like, it's kind of like, who was it? Was it Linda Evangelista said, I won't get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day? And while that can sound very elitist, I don't know when you really value your time and your credentials and what you're offering the world, you start to look at how you spend your time differently.

I mean, I get chills when you say that because for me, some of the things that I know that I've personally worked on and continue to practice is that is, is two things that you said I think is really powerful is the valuing your time and knowing that you're never going to get that back and it's not promised to you. But in addition to that we need to value the value we bring to this world. Right.

We.

So many people. And I think it's just. We're just indoctrinated in it, and that's fine. It comes from. It's a good thing because it comes from a place of humility. It comes from a place of knowing that there's more oftentimes, that there's more to learn and that you haven't just arrived. Right. I think that's what keeps us in such power in such a powerful coaching position, because we know that there's more. You can still be expansive while valuing what you already bring to this table, no matter what level you're at.

100%. Yeah.

And I think a lot of people miss that, and it's hard, especially when we have had years of people telling us otherwise. Especially. And, you know, I find a lot, like, I find this a lot in my women identifying clients where they've been told to, you know, we need to be humble. You said elitist, but I also. But for me, the word that came up was arrogance.

Yeah. I agree with you. Especially for women. Right. Like, it is. I struggle with that for years where it's like, who am I to be if my dad or my sister knew what I made last year? They don't know because I know. They won't understand because it's like, who are you? And I had to deal with that. It's like, who am I to ask for $600 a session as a personal trainer? Right. And women in particular. I think you used a great word. It's like we're supposed to be humble. But you can be humble and understand the value and charge what you feel feels good for you in terms of the exchange of energy, because that's really what it is. And absolutely, the people who either get a discount from me in the past or got my lower rates in the past don't show up as much as the people who are investing more.

Oh, my gosh. I'm just so glad that you said that, because I think I feel like I've really been leaning into that message is the sense that when you offer a discount, even if it's subconscious, in the sense that you don't tell anybody that it's a discount. Just in your mind, you've made it a discount. And you have said to yourself energetically, I don't value my value. And not. And I, you know, I always like to caveat. You know, it's not about charging your worth, because your worth isn't defined by what you do. You are worthy because you exist. Right. It's more about, you know, valuing. It's more about determining the worth of the value. And what is so easy for us isn't easy for your client. And I feel like that is hard. That's hard for people. And then when you do that, you are doing a disservice to the client because you're letting them energetically, subconsciously get off the hook and not show up for themselves.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I really do. I agree so much. And I love the way that you sort of qualified this idea of charging my value. Right. Because you're right. There is no value, really and truly. And even to the degree that money isn't really a thing, we given it a value. And I think that whatever number a person lands upon for the exchange of service, it should feel right for you. And that can change over time. When I first entered the online business, maybe I could have charged top dollar. It didn't feel right to me to charge top dollar. And so I have always tried to find that place where I feel good so that whatever rate I'm asking, I show up 100% because I'm psyched and I feel that I am able to give the customer that value. Right. Like, there were times where I charged more than I actually thought that I should be charging. And then I didn't feel good about it. I felt like I was taking advantage of my clients in the past, right. And so I was like, oh, we gotta fix that. And so there were times that I would bring my prices down so that I could feel good until I found that right place where it's like, ooh, if I charge this, I get excited and they get 10 times what I've actually charged, let's say. Right? And that to me is the sweet spot where I'm excited and I'm inspired. Inspired to over deliver. And it feels good. It feels really good.

Yes. And then you're both showing up and then everyone gets. Everyone wins, right? There needs to be that energetic match. Right. I think that's so good and so powerful. And then it also leads to this idea. Two things that I'm curious about your thoughts on is that, you know, people will be like, oh, what about accessibility? Accessibility? And I feel like. I feel like, yeah, but then you have the book, then you have the free resources. There's plenty out there for people to start getting the accessibility that they need. So that's one thing. And then the second thing that you often hear a lot in fitness is like, Fitness is supposed to be cheap. It's not possible to make money in fitness.

Oh, that's not true. I've been in the industry for 30 years. I can tell you that's not true.

I was like you guys, the $2.1 billion industry, there is plenty of money.

Here's the thing, this is the big revelation for me, right? OK. Every person listening right now in Beverly U2, if you were to close your eyes and envision you in peak physical condition, your dream body, your dream energy, your body composition, how much you can deadlift, how fast you can run, how you feel when you wake up in the morning, you feel so darn good in your body that you are living high all day long. Right? Wouldn't you give anything for that? What is that worth to you? And so when you really get in touch with, there is nothing in life more important than that because that is going to keep you healthy, that is going to make you a better mom, that is going to make you a better employee, that is going to make you, you know, just better in all the ways. And so there is literally no better place to invest your money. And so when you really anchor into, like, ask yourself really and truly, like, what would you pay for that? If I could say in six months you are not even going to recognize your image in the mirror. What would you pay for that? Most people, when they really think about it, they are like, whoa, that is a big number. That is what fitness is and nutrition.

And your identity and how you identify as a healthy and fit for person, for sure.

Yeah. You know, I. There's a part of my story that was really a turning point for me. So I started as a personal trainer right out of Penn State with a degree in exercise physiology and nutrition. One of my very first clients was Howard Stern and Julia Roberts and Natasha Richardson and Courtney Love and I mean, the list goes on. When I was 21 or 22, right, amazing. So all the way up until 39, I could perform pretty well from a perspective of fitness, but my body never really looked super fit and that bothered me. So as my 40th birthday was approaching, I had this real fear that I was going to hit 40 and it was going to be downhill from there. That quote unquote, you lose your body at 40, it's all downhill. You can't get rid of the right, all of that. And I was terrified. So the year before my 40th birthday, I was like, I'm going to see if I can get in the best shape of my life. And I did. And the results are insanely impressive. If you haven't seen my before and after, you should look it up. It's probably out there in Google land. But I got into really impressive shape and I've never looked back. And it was at that point, that was two years prior to getting a book deal. That was right around the time that I started creating fitness videos online. That was when. When I really started getting big celebrity clients. That was, you know, the year before or right around the time when I started training a presidential candidate. And it was like my identity shifted because I changed my body, not because I changed my mindset. It's a little different avenue than what's talked about in the personal development world because I know a lot of it is if you change your perspective, you can change your life. I did it the other way around. I changed my body and therefore I became a different person and my identity shifted and that was a massive game changer.

So it's interesting that you say that because you do hear that a lot, but I've listened a lot to Dr. Joe Dispenza's work and he talks about the synergistic relationship. Essentially, it works like a cycle. Right. And I think how I have developed and grown as a coach is that for me, it's not about looking for the right best way. It's about the person and it's about whatever it's going to take that person to get it and then live it and live in that synergistic cycle is what it's going to be about. When before I used to really come from this dogmatic approach of like, no, I know this works. Go into a webinar. I know it's the only way.

Right.

It's worked for me, it's worked for everyone.

Right.

And I think that that just came from my own insecurity of not and. And not living in the. And something I've noticed you say a lot in this so far in this recording, which I think is so powerful, is to look for the ways to live in the and doesn't have to be but it's.

And everything is an and.

Yes.

Even if you think it's a but try it as an and. Wow.

Yeah.

Talk about. Talk about a perspective shift.

Yes, for sure.

So, so agree.

So true. So I do want to shift gears a little bit and just ask because I know you have such a scientific background and we talked a lot about this before we hit record. So I'm curious how you, as you've grown in your business and also grown as a coach. How have you navigated the nuances of wanting to talk about the stuff that you care about, but meeting your clients where they're at and carrying them along for the of the rest?

That's such a good question and I hope I can have a condensed enough answer for it. I think what I would say is I am at heart a science nerd and I love all of the science behind what we do in fitness and nutrition. And a lot of people, there are people that are equally interested in that. The vast majority of the world isn't interested in that or it confuses them. So I made a very conscious decision to who my consumer is and everything I do is based on who I want to serve and who I think I can serve best. And I made a conscious decision as a brand to not be the science speaking expert, even though I have to pull some of that in to prove that I'm an expert. I think of myself as the go between, between all of the evidence, all of the research, all of the complex biology. But I like to distill it into a very easy to understand concept. For the layperson who just wants to get that body we were talking about a moment ago, just how can I get. I don't need to know whether it's an eccentric or concentric contraction, right? Does it really matter to her or to whomever you're serving? But my demographics, women. So does it really matter? They want their dream health, they want to feel better, they want to be better, they want all that stuff and really, really coming from a science background. So when I was at Penn State, I studied under Carl Stadefolk, I studied under Bill Kramer, I studied under the godfathers of the industry that we're in now. I know the science of it and I know that for everybody piece of science that supports a ketogenic diet. There's a lot of evidence that discredits a ketogenic diet. So you can get into the science game, but there's always going to be another side. Then you're going to be arguing and then you have to be proving your side of it. And I'm just like, I don't want to get in the. This science is right. No, this science is right. There's no such thing as adrenal burnout. Yes, there is. Ketogenic is the way to this or that. It, it's proven that it decreases your lifespan. I don't want to get into all of that. I would rather be like, I know what works from having done this for 30 years. And we can talk about some of the science. Because as an expert, you do have to be educated and you do have to know what you're talking about. And sometimes you do have to use big words like proprioception, right? Or myofibrillar hypertrophy. You do have to use those words and understand those concepts. But I don't believe in my experience of working with people in and out of the gym, especially in the gym, when I use those words, my clients just glaze over and they start thinking about their to do list. So it's like, what's the point, right? I'm just impressing myself and making myself sound like I'm super smart.

Oh my gosh, that is that. I feel like that is me too. Like I felt like that so much was like. And I finally had that moment of, you know, and I've said it before, is I'm not here to be right, I'm here to get results, period.

So.

And it was like it was coming from like, I'm trying to validate myself. No, no, who cares?

And I also think that like we as humans, we want reassurance, right? We do want reassurance. And so if we can say to myself, I know I'm right because I just read this research article, see, I'm right to myself. It makes me feel more confident, you know, but the truth is, it's like it does. So I personally have found and seen profound transformations by using blood type eating theory. And it is one of those diets out in the world that has gotten so criticized. And even though there is no research to support it, and even though there's so much criticism, I have watched unbelievable life changing things happen to my clients when I've employed eating according to their blood type. And so for years I fought with it because I get criticized for it. I get the trolls on Internet like I get hate death death emails sometimes because I'm so stupid, because there's no research to support this. And yet that's fine. I had a client who for six years had debilitating stomach pain and was going to doctor after doctor. They had probably spent 30, 40, $50,000 to remedy her stomach pain. She was on two kinds of medication and gaining weight because of it. And I changed two things in her diet. According to her blood type and IGG testing, she's off the medication, she has no stomachache. And we did it in less than six months, right? So it's like, tell me it doesn't work. I don't believe it. Right? So you could pull out all the science you want after a while. You know, things that work according to your experience, your experience in this world. Right. So if eating according to blood type, you have not seen it work for you, that's cool. That's fine. It doesn't mean it's wrong or a bad example. Yeah, I'm just using that as an example. I'm not pushing blood type eating. It's just a great example.

Sure. Of you trying something and testing something out on you and for your client. I mean, I always say, and it's funny, I think it's true, period, is that we think everything's going to be linear. Okay. We're going to set up this program and then we just are going to have a linear experience. It's just not how it works. I always talk about marketing as guessing, testing, and assessing, and that's honestly the life experience. We just gonna try something out, look and see what happens, and then make a different decision if we have to.

Yes. So agree. Oh, my gosh. It's that. It's that diaphragm, like what people think success looks like. And it's.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The diagram, you know, it is.

It is. That is what success is. It's like up, down. It's like weight loss. Up, down. Up, down. Up, down, down. Up down. Up down. Up down, down. Up, down. Up, down. Up, down, down. You know, that's what I always say. It's like success is the same way. Right. Up, down. Up, down. Up, down. Up, down, Up.

For sure. So I am curious, and I don't. This is. You don't have to expand if you don't want to. And I do want to be mindful of your time. But there is something that you said that I was curious, like how you went through that since you've been in the industry for so long. You said that you felt like you didn't really. You weren't the fittest that you could have been, even though you were in the fitness industry. Do you feel like that held you back in your business? I know. That's why I looked at the time. I was like, oh, my God.

As a whole, yes. Now, this is a really important conversation. I do not believe that you have to have ripped abs to be good at what you do. I do not believe that you need to be a certain shape or body size or any of that to be a good health or fitness professional. I don't. For me, I did. And that is simply because I really believe that I authentically love body Transformation. And I love getting to a place of peak physical performance and appearance and body composition and muscularity. I happen to dig that. And so for me, it did for all of those years, you know, and this is such an interesting conversation because now I know I struggled with getting my body to look a certain way because of all the health issues that I didn't know were going on at the time. So in my 20s and 30s, in my 20s, I didn't know it. I was living in New York City and I knew I was living in an apartment that had mold in it, but I didn't know how bad it was impacting my body. So all through my 20s and 30s, I was having a lot of health issues that made it so that getting lean and performing was nearly impossible. Now I know why, and I've been able to do it better. Now I can change my body like that if I want to. So. But that being said, I didn't like the fact that I was trying to help people get a six pack or ripped abs if that's what they want, but yet I hadn't done it for myself. So for me it was important. But in no way do I think that that has to be that way for anybody else. Ultimately, I feel like the message here that we're talking about is what do you need to do so you feel as good at what you need to do so that you can feel as confident as you want to feel so you can serve more people? What is that for you? If it means you need to get married, right, or get a dog or get breast implants or have them taken out? Whatever it is you need to make you feel confident, you need to do that. And for me, I wanted to get ripped. And so I did, you know, and it was a game changer for me.

I do think that, I think it's a great conversation to have because I feel two things. Number one is that that story is powerful for you. And I also have seen where that same experience, like for me, it led to when my body transformed, when I had children, it led to, oh, I've got years of releasing body image issues that I want to release, right? That was my part of the story where I realized that's what I need to release in order to feel so good in who I am now. Because ultimately that's the goal. And I think the second part to that, especially right now in the time of this recording, there's this cancel culture experience that I feel like people have, are missing resilience and missing diversity and the True meaning of that word. Which is not like, I'm not looking for bias confirmation. I'm looking to be with someone and live with people that might have different opinions. That's okay.

Oh, my gosh. Oh. So, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Right. It's like, I've gotten criticized for the people. The people that I serve, right? They want a nice, tight tummy, right? They're after high performance, being strong, being healthy, being fit and looking a certain way. And I've gotten criticized for that. But the truth is. But if that's what sue wants, if that's what sue wants, why should we try to tell her that she should be perfectly happy with where she is? Right? I agree with you. It's like, and if sue is perfectly happy being 50 pounds overweight, be 50 pounds overweight. Right? Like, agreed. I don't think that just because I help people look fit doesn't mean I'm the devil, and it doesn't mean I'm a part of diet culture. Right.

I just want to say, I bet you you get totally fired. Like, you're perpetuating diet.

Oh, I can't tell you. People, like, start conversations on my Instagram page where it's like, this is toxic language. And I'm like, it's really not right. But to her, who is, you know, self acceptance, anti diet culture, that's cool, too. I'm not criticizing you. And I could, by the way, from the perspective of science and body composition and what research shows us is a healthy body composition and body fat level, we could go there if we want, but I'm not going to. Right? So it's like, there is a place in the world that we're in. Too much body fat is a precursor to cardiovascular disease, cancer, stroke, all of these things that, trust me, you want to avoid. And so there's a conversation on both sides of it there. And so it really. The cancel culture and the freedom that people feel to comment and criticize set me back for a period of time. And now I'm just like, listen, I have too many clients that come to me who they are not happy that their doctor told them they are 30 pounds overweight and they need to lose weight. That's who I work with. And I work with a person like, doesn't it feel good to fly up a flight of stairs because your legs are so strong and so mobile and so stable? Does that not feel amazing? Does that not improve your life? And so there's both sides of every conversation.

Absolutely. I think two things, too. Is That I feel like the majority of the world is living in the I'm fine coma, where they just don't really recognize or realize how good it could be. That does not mean that we're living in this place that it, that we can't be happy now. It's, it's like we're not, you know, the last ten pounds is what I always say. Like you're going to catapult when you're okay now and still know that there are.

Exactly, exactly. You are fine, you can be perfect. You are amazing where you are. That is the difference. And that is what I share with women in my community. It is like, okay, you are 100 pounds overweight, you are fine, you are worthy, you are beautiful, you are amazing. You are all those things. And what if you were healthier? Wouldn't it be awesome to feel better when you get up in the morning? Wouldn't it be amazing for your doctor to say, I am so proud of you, you are healthy. You are not going to end up with diabetes like your mother did. So both can coexist. And I agree with you, it's not that saying, taking off the last, even there, if it's the last five pounds, if that's what you want for whatever reason, it doesn't have to come from not good enough. It can come from, I love personal excellence. I love excellence. It feels good to me. It's an accomplishment.

I love that. And I also feel too like the second thing is that self, you know, self esteem loss is not the same thing as weight loss. And yet we've so many people have associated that, you know, and, and I also love that you acknowledge that it set you back because it's easy for me to say like, oh, well, just, you know, let it roll off the your back. Let it roll off your back. But we're human beings having a human experience. Like it's going to, it's going to affect you. Things that have helped me is, is recognizing that people are just speaking from their hurt people, hurt people. And they're speaking more about themselves than they are about you. And then something too, that. And even in the way that you speak, I can feel it. You're just so convicted that it doesn't matter. It's like as if someone was saying, holly, that green hair is so terrible. And you're looking at it like, hello, it's not green. Okay, you're spooky.

Totally. 100%. What are you talking about? And I thought that happened, by the way. Actually, I had that happen on an Instagram video, I did a demonstration of an rdl, and some girl got on there. She's like, this isn't a deadlift. In a deadlift, you do this, that, or the other. And I'm like, this is an rdl. This is not a deadlift. Right? And it literally was like, here she was criticizing that I didn't know what a dead. How to do a deadlift. And I'm like, you got it backwards. You know, and the one thing I wanted to offer there, too, because I hear you. It's like, if you get. None of us want to be criticized. We don't want to be challenged. It's uncomfortable. It brings up a lot of stuff from childhood, or it's just. It's complicated, right? So every single time someone criticizes me, I have to breathe through it for a few hours. And this is what I've decided. I also don't have to defend myself, and I don't have to attack back. I can say, you know what? I hear your perspective. I get it. But we're talking two different things. And that's okay, too, because even for the person who comes into my community to criticize me, even though I can still say, hey, have your opinion, I have mine. That's really fair and balanced, right? Because she's calling me, or he or she or they, whatever, maybe is calling me wrong. I don't have to call them wrong back. But I can also say I'm not wrong. This is my experience and my perspective, and I respect yours. Have yours, too. I don't agree with yours, though. And that's okay, right? Like, it's okay. I wish we all would do that. Can you imagine how awesome the world would be?

Oh, my gosh. I'd go to that world today.

Oh, be so much fun. We'd learn so much. We'd have more fun friends, you know, be happier. Happier. No road rage, like, you know, no haters. It would be so much more fun if it was just like. And I feel that way about a lot of things in the world. We have our perspectives and the things we believe in, and that is cool. It doesn't mean the other person's perspective is wrong. I love that.

Okay, so this. Holly, I definitely want to be respectful of your time. So thank you so much for pouring into us today. Really appreciate it. And for those of you who want to learn more about what you do, come hang out with you. Where's the best places that I can send that?

Absolutely. So I would say my website, hollyperkins.com I've got some great free downloadable resources. One of them that's super duper popular is my approach to Nutrition, which is HollyPerkins.com macros. And it's so much more than just a conversation about macronutrient balancing. I've devised a whole system of really intentional nutrition that is outside of a lot of the rules and outside of a lot of structure. It's really, from my perspective, the most unrestricted and unlimited way to get to the goals that you want. Whether it's performance, energy, weight loss, or even fixing autoimmune stuff. It's all in my approach to nutrition. So. Hollyperkins.com macros amazing.

And we'll link that all up in the show and your Instagram, of course.

Yes, of course, of course, of course.

Cool. Holly, thank you. This has been awesome. Oh my gosh.

Thank you so much. So fun. This was just, just awesome.

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