Build Authority with a Book with Korey Van Wyk

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 334. Today I'm sitting down with Coach Corey, and we're discussing how to build authority with a book. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase. Increase client performance in movement, package and position their products and services, and get out of their own way so that they can increase.

What's up, Coach? Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson, and if this is the first time that you're hanging out with me today, welcome. I'm super pumped that you're here today. I have a very special guest. Honestly, this guest, we have been trying to connect for at least the last six months, and our schedules were just not agreeing. So the fact that we got this recorded, I'm so excited to bring it to you. And honestly, it was worth the wait because I sat down with Corey, who is a editor for Cardinala Academic Publishing. He is also the host of the Performance Connection podcast. And he is an incredible coach who cares about the science of training. Specifically, we really talk about nutrition components inside of this episode, and now he has combined those skills to really help raise industry standards by bringing leaders in the fitness and nutrition sector space and helping them write academically. And really, we. In this episode, we talk about the differences between the different types of books, how you. The differences between self publishing and the differences between working with the publisher and. And if writing and building authority and. And really getting your message out there to raise industry standards is at the top of your list. This episode is for you. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. What's up, Corey? Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. How are you?

I'm doing great. I'm. I am very excited to be here and I just appreciate you asking me to be on.

Oh, I'm so excited. Just for context, for those of you who are tuning in, Corey and I have been trying to schedule this podcast, I think for six months. It has been insane, insane, the schedule. So really, I'm so excited. What a pleasure and a privilege. I really appreciate it. So for those of you who have not been introduced to the pleasure of your work, can you please share with us who you are, who you serve and how you got there?

Oh, man. Well, I mean, classically, I am a educated like My classical education is exercise science. I wanted to be a strength conditioning coach, which I was for six years. I got my master's degree in nutrition. So for a while I thought I was going to be a dietitian, decided not to do that route. But I still am really glad I did the nutrition masters because it allowed me to enter into academia. So for six years I was a professor of practice of kinesiology and a strength coach at the same time. So it was this really neat dual role that was kind of the perfect thing for me coming out of graduate school. So I taught, you know, if you're at a small school, you teach everything. So I taught nutrition, I taught anatomy, I taught motor learning. We had a strength conditioning career, concentration. So I taught strength conditioning classes. But it was dual role. So I also was the strength coach for six athletic teams. And yeah, it was just like a great thing coming out of school, graduate school, because I was still pretty fresh with my strength conditioning background. But I'm coming fresh off nutrition. So it was a perfect fit for me to step into teaching those classes. And it was a fun time, just starting to mentor future strength conditioning students, exercise science students. You know, I, I helped start a long running clinic that, that actually is coming up here at the beginning of May at the university. It's the school's Northwestern College. If. So that was just a good, a good time. But eventually, you know, I did start to think like, maybe I don't want to do the academic thing forever and, and whatnot. So started looking for opportunities and one presented itself to me that I never thought I would do. And it was from the publishing side of things. So I was browsing the Human Connects website one day and I saw this posting called an acquisitions. I had no idea what it was, but I'm like, okay, it's editorial, so it's got to be something about, you know, reading. And HK is an education company on exercise science, nutrition, which is, are the things I'm, I'm into. So I read it and again, really didn't really know what it was, but it mentioned like creating resources, collaborating with professionals, you know, recruiting authors, things like that. And like that sounds like a lot of fun. So I applied, got it and I worked for Human Kinetics as an acquisitions editor for three years. And yeah, basically that role was I would ideate new book ideas if I felt that a book had a value and had an audience and it fit well within community kinetics offerings and library. Then I would pitch that to hk they would say, thumbs up, thumbs down. If it was approved, I would then recruit an author to write that book. So if it was like, let's say it's a, like a personal training business type book, then I would say, all right, who's the person in this space that's the go to, right? Or who are the people maybe that could team up? So thus far at this point in time, I have two of those books on shelves. The Overload System for Strength by Christian Thibodeau and Tom Shepard and Nutrient Timing by Lauren Link that just came out last month. So very. Yeah. So over the next year, both I got started. So that's, that's, that's really cool. And it was really awesome experience and it really allowed me to blend like my background of exercise, nutrition, strength, conditioning, because those are the specific subjects I, I worked in. But that was for professionals and consumers. So, you know, a couple years soon, you'll, we'll see like a landmine training book is going to come out, a body weight training book is going to come out that are like really for the, the average person. But recently transitioned to still in publishing acquisitions editor to the academic side. I now with a company called Cognella. I'm sure most people have never heard of it, but they're really awesome. They're really cool publisher and I am kind of doing the same thing. Honestly. It's, it's. My subject areas are still nutrition, exercise and sports science. And I am tasked with growing the academic offerings that Cognella has for students and, and professionals as well. So like, if there's, I mean, I think almost every, every book that I've discussed that I have in the works has a professional crossover. So those are the, I guess the other people I'm serving right now. So to give you a little bit of an idea, an example. So before this podcast, I had an initial conversation with a potential author to write a communication and a communicating nutrition textbook. So like, what are all the issues surrounding communication? How do you translate the science? How do you do scientific writing? Okay, if I do scientific writing, can I write that for Forbes magazine? Okay, now if I'm on Instagram, how do I adapt that to a reel? Or what if I'm on Twitter? Like, how do I take all these different areas that you as a student, first of all, you need to know about because you're gonna have to do it as a professional. But even if you're like us, that maybe didn't start our careers with all that available and now it is, we gotta learn them. And I guess you Know, professionals talk about that a lot of, like, either trying to go up against influencers who don't have good information. Well, we've got to compete in that space. And that's a communication thing. Like, how do you communicate your message in a way that will get people to listen and absorb your content and then use your content? So, like, that's the kind of stuff I'm trying to bring, right? Like, really relevant, really applicable, usable things that will hopefully make students education very rich and, you know, something they can use when they become a professional.

So, Corey, what I'm really hearing you say is that I need to write a book.

Then, yeah, let's do it. Yes. Is like, here's. And here's who. Here's who I'm targeting. I want the ideals of the prac, what I call the pracademic, where they either currently have a foot in academia and the real world, so to speak, or they are. Maybe they used to be there, but I don't want someone who's never been there. You know, I don't want. Unless it's like, strictly, like, I'm thinking a nutrition and metabolism type book. But even then, like, the person writing it's got to know what the end goal is.

Yes. So this is a great segue because it's one of the big questions that I wanted to ask you because, you know, I hear. I heard some words that I would love for you to kind of like break down. Like, you talked about a textbook book. You talked about like an academic book. But then you also, you know, there are also marketing books that are books that are used to drive leads and maybe not potentially books that are used to actually profit off of. So how do you define the word book? And then as a professional, how do we know when we need to write one or if we need to write one?

Well, I guess really to write one. Like, do you have something unique to share that will help people? Like, really, that's. When I'm working with an author, that's the first thing we tackle. It's like, all right, how is what you are going to create going to be uniquely competitive? Like, for example, the author I was just talking with before this call, before the podcast, there is a textbook called Communicating Nutrition by the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. So that's a big. That's a big competitor. So we kind of had to think about, all right, what. What's going to help this stand out a little bit? Like, how can we position it? And as far as, like, so, like, really that's all that's needed. And in today's world, not even thinking academics, anyone can write a book because you can self publish. Like Amazon has made that super, super easy. So all you really need is do you have something of value or do you feel like you have something that could help people? But then thinking about, okay, how am I going to make this stand out and stand apart from what might already be out there, right? That's just anything. That's anything, any product, anything. So like I've had to do that though when people are thinking about writing a book, I've had to get them in the headspace of treat this as any other product that you want to, would want to sell. Because that and almost, almost amplify it. Because it's harder to get people to buy a book to be honest. Like, because yeah, but anyway, so that then you need to identify and this is probably something, you probably teach this all the time because then you gotta know who your audience is, right? You have to know like who. And this is where it's tough because you need to know if like, let's say, okay, I have this topic, I have this expertise that I'm really passionate about. I've done some things that I know can help people. I know people are struggling with xyz, but who is the end holder of this book? Who will actually pick it up and who will read it and identify that as much as possible? So a lot of times I'll talk with authors and they're like. And I'll like, okay, who's the book for? Well, you know, it's for Pete. It's for personal trainers, but it's also for strength coaches. Oh, and then also like physical therapists. But you know, then you know, the parent or the parents. Yeah, the parents will like this too. So once you start to like delve into this, like, nope, that's way too many people. Who are you writing the book literally to who's in front of you? And that's going to be different than who is it useful for? Because multiple audience can find use from a book. Like we've had to do that as the health profession and the fitness profession forever. Like for marketing, we've had to read non specific marketing books that don't deal with nutrition and we've had to try to adapt that. But they didn't write it for us. Like those authors did not write it for the nutrition or exercise or health professional. They wrote it for the business professional. Likely. I'm thinking like, like a good to great you know, like something that gets recommended all the time, but it's not for us. So like, who that would be like, like business execs, like people who want to. If I remember, you know, I don't. You've actually never read that one for that reason, you know, so that is the biggest challenge of so of getting people to really hone in on who is this book literally going to be for. Like, if you get more than two audiences identified as like the target target, you're. You're probably not specific enough. But yes, of course it will be useful for many populations. So, like, another one. If I could give it another example, I'm working on a book right now that is basically a career guide for strength conditioning coaches. Not personal trainers, not, you know, other professions. Strength, like collegiate and professional strength conditioning coaches. Like you are going into team sports. That's that this book is for. And in his proposal, he starts talking about athletic trainers and physical therapists and athletic directors and it's like, okay, we're veering off the path here. And yes, those are adjacent professions, but they have different career paths. They have similar issues, but they're not the same context. So we need to make sure this reverts back to number one, the student who wants to be a strength coach and the professional. And like, that's it. Like, we're not going to delve into other, other areas here. So I'll stop there and see if you have any other follow ups.

Yeah, my other question, I have so many follow ups and I'm so great. Oh my gosh, I need to write a book. But it's actually leads to my question, which is, you know, who should write a book and why would someone write a book? How will this help facilitate their career having a book?

I mean, you need to see it as part of your portfolio. So can be a very, very nice addition to I guess what we call like in academia or in publishing. It's like your, your suite. Like what is your product suite. So you've got your coaching, you've got your online courses, you maybe are doing some speaking, you've got a podcast. Adding a book in there can be a great addition because, well, if you work with a publisher, the publisher is going to help you reach a new audience that, that you don't currently have access to. And despite, I guess where society and I guess the, the reception is, people do still read. I mentioned earlier, it's tougher to sell books. It. Which it kind of is. But I do feel like the Pendulum is going to Swing back a little soon to people because right now everyone's like, online course, online course. I love online courses and I do the pendulum, I think is going to just like everything in fitness and most professions that the pendulum goes back and forth. I think we're going to see it go back and forth, back to print media and people wanting to like tangibly hold something and read it, but it facilitates. It all feeds into each other. So like when you do speak, when you do have a podcast, those are avenues to sell your book. People get a hold of your book, oh, they might tell someone else about it. Oh yeah, I heard Beverly speak at this conference. You should have her. And establishes you as an authority. You know, that's a, that's a big one. Because yeah, people might not find your courses. And, and I will say this, there is no greater test of if you can organize and synthesize your thoughts than a book. Because you don't, you can't piecemeal it really. Like if you do an online course, you can kind of go module by module or if you're doing speaking, that's only a 50 minute snapshot in time. Where you gonna, you're gonna scratch the surface of lots of different things. Even if maybe it's on only one topic. You really don't get that deep. You don't have time. That's not true with the book. You have the time. You have the space by and large to delve into things and you will find out very quickly how deeply you know something. Because I've read, I've read manuscripts of like people writing a professional book and I read their manuscript. I'm like, you got to go deeper. You like, this is, this is not quite to the level that it needs to be. And that had been a struggle for, for, for, for people. So that is another aspect of just like what is beneficial about a book if, if you can like this, sit down, organize your thoughts in a way that makes sense. And I'm thinking now in academia, pedagogically of learning how do you scaffold the information or if you're writing to a lay audience, consumer audience, what's going to get them in first of all into the book and hooked. And then how are you going to make the information the most usable and applicable to them? That's going to make you a better speaker. It's going to improve your online courses, it's going to improve your coaching. So it's just like, it's little, it's a nice addition to an ecosystem. So I Think I feel like I've not answered your question about who should write a book. So can you like.

No, you did. You answered. You answered it. Right. The reason why I asked you that question, and in that way is because. And then I'm going to ask you this question as a follow up. The reason I asked you that is because sometimes I feel like, just like anything, right. If we're going to talk about even growing on Instagram, people have these, like, they are chasing accolades, they will be chasing popularity metrics without even realizing it. And so people think, oh, I need to write a book in order to be an authority, or I need to be write a book and then I will be considered a, an. An expert. When, when in reality, you just need to have the intention behind why what you're doing anything is there, or the intention behind doing anything is clear for you as a professional. In my head. Right, because you could do anything. You do it online. Course you could write a book. It really just comes down to, are you saying things in your mind like, I should do that or are you saying things in your mind like, oh, I could never do that when I really want to. It's just about, like finding clarity in terms of the intention behind what you're creating. Is what I asked you, you know.

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yes, I, you know, that, that's, that makes perfect sense. And I will say I was going to add it to the who the difference between a book and I, but it's a difference. But it's, it's not in the sense that, like anything you take on yourself is a huge task. Like you have to put it. What's your saying? It takes what it takes.

Yes, it takes what it takes. Until it takes.

It takes what it takes. So if you do develop an online course, if you are developing a new product, you can't get around that, like front end work where you're doing things that you aren't going to see like a payoff for until later. That's true, regardless. But a book, you're talking potentially years, not months. So like, when I sit down with authors, they're like, well, it's the timeline most of the time just the first draft of the manuscript. In most books just plan on a year. So think about, are you willing in the vast majority of cases to do that because you want to get your message out and you're so passionate about something, are you willing to work on something for potentially two years and not see a dime? Now, I'm not making that sound very fun. That's really what it is. Like, unless you're Peter Attia or Gabrielle Lyon, because those are people in our space who, yes, they probably got big book deals. That is not the common. That's not common like it. It just isn't. And in the publishing world, most, the vast majority of publishers, you may get a little upfront rant or a little upfront advance, but by and large you don't see anything from that book until you start earning royalties after that book gets released. So I've always said that a book is like the ultimate test of a delayed gratification because to keep yourself on task for that long is tough. But also like I said earlier, you don't get a chance to chunk it up as much. Like, think about writing an article and like kind of if it's just like a 1000 page or 1000 word, 2000 word article, you know, that's anywhere from like a four to eight page article if you're thinking like in words, word, double space type of thing. Now do that like over and over and over and over again until you reach 200, 300, 400, 500 pages. Right? Like that's what a book is. And but when you do it, I. All those other things happen too. You sharpen your sword as far as like understanding the content, like weaving a story into it. Like how does it all piece and fit together and then just being more proficient at communicating that and getting your message across, hopefully. And the nice thing about a publisher is you have editors that help you. But that is a tough aspect of a book. I will say so for who should write it, who should not write it? Do not write it or enter into it unless you have a innate desire to get your work message out. Like if you would not if you like if the first thing is thought is like, how much money am I going to make out of off the book? You're probably not going to stick through it. I'm just. You're just not. I'm just. That's just kind of how it is. And you have to go in being okay with that like delayed compensation and that delayed aspect of it. But I will say people like to say, well, there's really not much money in books. You can almost say that about everything. Like how many people have started an MLM and not made a dime? But there's people who have. And it's the same with books. Like there's people who have made. I know authors at HK that yeah, they made a lot of money off their book. They did. There's people at Cognilla who have made a lot of money off their textbooks. You can, but you have to have those things in place, like you and I have talked about, of like, who is the audience? And guess what? You will probably not make the Money until your 2nd or 3rd edition. Which is another interesting thing about textbooks that you don't get from other books. Typically it's just like, what it is, what it is, it, it is.

You know, can you break that down? What is the difference between a textbook, a professional book, and then just like, you know, a book to consumer.

Yeah, I mean the line between professional and text is very murky. Like there really isn't much of one other than a textbook will typically be mapped to a specific course. Like, what are the course requirements? And that those course requirements might be tied to either a certification or licensure. So if you look at. I'll use nutrition as an example because it's one of my subject areas. A lot of nutrition curriculums in the universities will be mapped to what is the requirements for the exam for the Dietetic Board certification. So then that'll kind of like, all right, schools will start from the exam. What are the competencies needed set by the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics? And then schools will say, okay, what courses do we need in our curriculum to meet those demands? And then textbook or publishers will say, all right, what textbooks do we need to release so that professors will adopt them?

Okay, because that was kind of my next question. It was going to sound. And I, you know, at the risk of sounding like an idiot, what, how do you make money on textbooks? Like, because for me, I'm like, is, does the professor just pick the textbook? Or for me, I feel like the professor would just create the textbook or at least in the online space.

Well, so like, I mean, the author, how does the author of the textbook make money?

Yes.

Yeah, it's, it's through royalties. Yeah. Like, so, so I'll, I'll. If you. To make money off your book, you will, you will earn royalties if you go with a publisher. So if you self publish, then it's just like anything else. You just profit. Like what, what is your net profit? Right. The difference is the, you are responsible for all of the cost of the book if you self publish. If you go the publisher, you either are responsible for none of the cost or very little of the cost. So that's the difference there. So yeah, like, if I, if I release a textbook and it receives whatever several thousand adoptions across the country, it's $150 textbook authors making 10% per book. You know do you kind of. You can kind of do the math and figure out what the. What the income would be or what what someone would make off a book like that. So that's how that would go. Now like to your question like what's the difference between a textbook and professional. You know it's just the professional book is. Is it sounds dumb but like it'll just be written to that professional like what are the issues? What are the issues they face? It's probably not going to be as like dry. I mean I'm thinking like style here. The chapters are going to be maybe a little less bogged down in like theory and straight to what do you need to know but the depth of the information is going to be quite deep.

So like Simon Sinek is a professional writer.

He would be. I would say he's more trade although I've only read two of his books so maybe maybe his later books have been.

What'S a trade book.

So a trade book is kind of like we go to Barnes and Noble and pick up like if you go to like the business section at Barnes and Noble or the leadership section you'll find your Simon Sinek, you'll find your John Gordon's, you'll find your John Maxwell's. They're very easy read. They're like very narrative based. They're story based like cynical that and so like so but I will say those do get adopted like so like those books might get adopted into actually when I took a management to my business marketing in college they the the like kind of secondary adoption not the textbook but the secondary adoption was but called Made to Stick. I think that was a. Was Chip and Dan Heath maybe I can't remember. So like those work their way in but they're not, they're not set up for like like learning really they're more not entertainment but they've got to have that element or people aren't going to read them. You know what I mean? So I guess so if you think trade consumer it's for the average person would pick them up maybe if they're really gung ho it's for their own self development but obviously you know professionals pick up those types of books too. But it's not going to deal with like the X's and O's per se for the most part of like their day to day job. Now when you get into that now you're getting into textbooks. So trying to think what a good Example would be for like our space. You know, I'm thinking like, you know, HK will have books like Periodization of strength training for Sports. Yeah, that's professional. That's professional book.

Not necessarily a textbook, but you can. So like I'm also thinking of things like Dan John's books. Right. Like back in. He would write a lot of books that could, a consumer could actually pick up. But they were geared to like, here's why and how I program.

Yes.

A strength and condition.

Yeah. So those would be because they're for the professional.

Yes.

But Dan John is a very accessible, digestible style.

Yes.

But the vast majority, they're not going to reach the consumer audience. Right. Like I'm not. So what's interesting with publishing? Publishing, you know, the publishing world's interesting. And what's been fun for me in this like kind of career path I've taken is like number one, learning about it, but then just helping and educating other people. Like oftentimes when I get on calls with authors, they're just like, I know nothing about publishing. And I'm like, I don't blame you. I didn't either. You're like, I'm just still learning how things work. And I think Dan John, well, I can't remember is he. He went through Dragon Door publishing, which I think it's, it's basically self published. So that's one spectrum. Things where. So if you self publish, it's all on you, you get no help.

Yeah, I want to talk about that. I do want to talk about self publishing, but I just out of curiosity, do authors like sometimes send you scripts where it's like, wait, I feel like I'm reading your personal journal. They're like, here's my stack of blogs for the last 12 years. Can we make this into a book?

Well, honestly, that's what a lot of conversations start when I approach them. They're like, I have. And that's. Oh, that's, that's actually I'm glad you mentioned that because that's another benefit of a book. It's all in one spot ideally. So like this is a way, it's a way for people to take like I have all these things I've written, I have all this stuff and it's just like out there in the ether. Right. It's like just he's, you know, gotta like piecemeal it together or people have to like piecemeal together for themselves. I've. They've either want to or people have told them, can I just get it all in one spot. No, I just want everything together. That's a good benefit. But I have had conversations or people, we've started that with that idea of like you've had this career of like writing on this topic or this is the person, this is the thing you're known for. But no one can find it all in one place really. Or if it is lives in an online course, it's not accessible to the vast majority of people because it might be 500 course. Oh and then you might have three of them. So you've now limited your audience to only, only professionals for sure. And really, really, really gung ho professionals who really care about what they're doing and are willing to devote those resources and their time. But a book, even if it's expensive at like 50 bucks, you know, ish for the non textbook you've now almost like now you have a new audience that might be exposed to you kind of thing. So yes, I've had people say I have all this stuff, I just need it to like be put in one spot number one. And I needed it to like fit like I needed to kind of like flow better and have a linking idea that links everything together. Which is tough because the other aspect of like in addition to audience is trying to not put everything in the book.

That was my next question, right? Because like when I think about like what the process of what I carry my clients through and how I'm like how we're thinking through things like it's mo. It's multifaceted, right? We gotta go offer, we gotta think audience, we gotta think about communication. Then we gotta build this structure is. It's like, it's like do you recommend someone takes one concept and goes can they write a book on it or is it like comprehensive? How do you manage?

Yeah, that, that, that's a great question. And so it then it just starts with like so for the academic space it's like what class is this going to be in? Is this going to be in a 200 to 300 level foundational nutrition class? That's a different beast than a 400 to 500 level upper level grad or grad class on protein, you know what I mean? So that's just a natural thing like where it will. But the what you'll, what you'll notice if you kind of look at textbooks these, these foundational ones you might've used in school. I'm thinking for nutrition there's you know, nutrition by Insol and Ross and the higher level 1 advanced nutrition and Human metabolism. They're either going to be three to four authors or it's going to be an edited book where one to two editors oversee the entire book. Then each chapter is written by two to four people. That's really the only way you tackle these massive topics. Unless you're Peter Attia and you took five years to write your book. We had a podcast on that. So I kind of know the story there, but that's the only way. Like, but Peter Atia, I guarantee you, I mean that that'll probably almost broke him. I mean, I know it did because he talked about it. Like that's a huge task. So when it comes to these big, expansive, broad topics, most of the time it's like multiple people trying to tackle it. Or it's an edited book where they're going to bring in the experts on each topic. Now the, the issue there with edited books, it's great on the surface, like, sweet. We're going to bring in this world leader and that world leader and this expert. But what ends up happening is it can feel disjointed. The chapters don't fit very nicely because they are written by different people. If you have one, like a team of authors that write everything, it's easier to make that book flow better and have connection from chapter to chapter to chapter and kind of maintain the, the end goal as like the focus the entire time. So that is where like, I guess, does that answer a question of like, where do those fit?

Yeah.

How do those get tackled? Now if you're non textbook, if you're thinking professional or consumer, you, you do have to think as specific as possible. Like get it nailed down. Like get the, the end user down and stick to your topic. And like at HK this would, would be tough because a lot of times people wanted to just get into topics that were not, that were outside the book. They're like, maybe it was a training book. Right. Like, well, let's have a nutrition chapter, let's have a rehab chapter. Let's have like, no, this. Nope. It's beyond the scope. We're getting into topics that number one, you're not like really qualified to write. It'd be cool. Well, sure, like, and it's not saying it's not useful, but it's beyond the scope of either what we need or what the original idea was.

Yeah, yeah, it's hard because we're multi passionate and then, and it's, it's usually takes more than just one thing.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So now I'm Curious. Can you share a little bit more about the differences between self care publishing and then working with the publisher?

Yes, I would love to because it's something that, it's a tough thing to navigate because when authors hear 10% royalty a lot, I mean they get not offended.

Well, I mean, one of the things too, while you were talking, you know, I looked up Peter Attia and like his book that almost broke him is like $20 on Amazon. So that can be hard to pour so much and then get 10% royalty.

Yeah. Yes. And that book is a $20 book and it's, it's long, it's not a short book, it's thick. But I don't know specifically. He probably did get a book deal.

Sure, sure, sure.

I also know he was, he had to switch publishers because he didn't get his book done, which is another aspect of if you work with a publisher. But anyway, so let's set Peter aside because he's the anomaly. People like him, Simon and these other people, they're the anomalies. The big difference, like I said earlier With Self Publish vs. Publisher is the assistance that you get and who's taking on the cost like books take. I'm, I, I'm, I can't remember. I, I almost did this the other day because I was thinking about it myself because it would be useful for people to kind of understand like how much money does it take to actually produce a book? And I don't have specific numbers, but tens of thousands of dollars if not more to produce a book and sell it on a mass scale. Publishing Thursday, you know, so like that's, so instead of. So yes, you might get a 10 to 15 royalty off net sales of the book, but you're not sinking in thousands of dollars to get it made. So like let's, let's take a training book for example. You want to write a training book. All right, so the longer the book is, the more expensive it is to print. The bigger, the bigger it is. The, and what I mean by bigger is the trim size. So is it going to be 8 1/2 by 11 book? Is it going to be a 7 by 10 book? Is it going to be hardcover or a soft cover? Hardcover is more expensive. Is it going to be full color interior? That's more expensive. Are you going to have photos and videos or photos? Let's just stay with photos. Well, who's going to pay for the photo shoot? Who's going to hire the photographer? Who's going to pay the models? Who's going to, you know, edit those photos. Like all these things that go into just getting those photos and if it's a training book, you might have 100 to 200 photos. Do you have to rent the facility for those photos? Like those. If you're self publishing, that's all on you. Like you don't get help with that. Then it becomes manuscript development. Are you going to self edit this thing? Are you going to self copy edit this thing? Okay, well if you don't want to do it, you need to hire somebody to do it. So then there's a cost there. So do you see how like all these things start to piece together? So like when authors like, well, when you know, why don't I just do it myself? Like you can be prepared to spend several thousand dollars just to get the thing done and made and then after that. Now I don't exactly know the back end process because I've never done it specifically on the self publishing side. But the other aspect is, all right, now you've got it made, you've got it produced, it's designed. Oh, that's the other thing. You're going to design the thing. So who's going to design the books, cover all that kind of stuff. Now you got to distribute the thing, right? So like that's another thing the publisher is going to take care of for you. They're going to, they're going to take care of distribution, housing, all those kinds of things that customer service. If there's an issue with the book that's on the publisher, the author doesn't need to worry about that. But if you self publish again, like either you handle it or someone else does or you outsource it. The other aspect of this is marketing. So like, honestly, it's so funny. And again, any entrepreneur gets this. The real work starts after it's made. Almost doesn't mean people buy it. I mean that's just such common sense. Right? And it's, it's just with a book like anything else. So when you, the book is done, if you are not involved as the author and promote the thing, you will not sell it. I don't care. Like it just doesn't, it's not going to happen. You need to sell the book.

There's a reason it's called New York's best selling list and not writers list. Like let's just be honest here.

Yeah. And so now the great thing about publisher is you guys now are a team. So hopefully if you're an author, you have your own network. Great. You need to leverage that as much as humanly possible. But then the publisher will do their own due diligence, hopefully if they're a good publisher to get your book into a new audience that you would never have reached. And so there's another again weight of getting the book out there. And so now, and so where that ends up kind of like balancing it all out is copies sold. So if you self publish a book, I don't, let me just say a few hundred copies, most people would sell if they self publish a book. Now you go to a publisher that turns into a few thousand. So yes, like you make all the profit off sales of your self published book, but you sunk how many thousands of dollars in upfront. And so are you actually gonna make profit on the back end from the book itself? Now obviously we talked about the ecosystem it feeds into and all that stuff. But then the publisher, if you sell 5,000 copies at a 10% royalty versus 500 copies at full profit, it might all kind of come out in the.

Wash. Well, not to mention the fact that people underestimate the value of the time that they can't get back.

Back. Yeah.

Right. So it's like, okay, yeah, you can do this all yourself. Sure. And not to mention the amount of hours or not to mention just the money that you'll invest. They're going to be time that you're going to be knocking on the door that you're not going to get that time back.

Yeah. And, and you have nobody, nobody holding you to a timeline.

That's true.

So sometimes I, I never said this to an author, but I do want to say it. Sometimes they're like, I could just do this myself. And my, I want to say, but will you. Yeah, like it. So my part of my job as an acquisitions editor is, is to be their accountability partner. So like I'm, I am the one to check in on them of like, hey, you've got chapters due in three weeks. How is it going? How's it coming along? Do you have any questions? And then I'm their coach. Almost like if they are running into writer's block, if they're like, well what do you guys, what do you think here? Like what do you give me your thoughts. And that's where my background of having a background in the discipline helps a lot. Where I can be like, okay, well this was our original idea. Have you thought about like this aspect and that aspect or you know, don't worry about that. That's not where we're going. Just focus on xyz and you get that with again, hopefully a good publisher who has an active. Some publishers don't. They're out there, of course. But if you have a good publisher, you get assistance with that writing process, not only from developmental side. So with Cognella, you have me as a, as a content editor, meaning, like, if there are any gaps in the content of like, hey, this, this will be really, this maybe topic is really important to the audience. Let's make sure we include it. You have what we call developmental editors, meaning they are looking at flow. How does it fit together like a puzzle? Are there any like, just like explanation gaps of like, wait, you kind of went into this but you didn't set the context. You have copy editors who are looking at grammar, like the actual punctuation and synth sentence structure and all the stuff. All this stuff. And then of course you get design help and all that stuff. Oh, and then the other thing that people don't realize when it comes to books is permissions. If you want to use other people's stuff, whether that's published or otherwise, like in a journal article or another book, you can't just use it for free. Like, you can't just use it. You have to buy permissions. And most people don't do that correctly or at all. And that's where a publisher is going to make sure that process is done the right way. So there's no, no legal issues. But it's also cannot be cheap. It's not cheap again, so a publisher would incur that cost, maybe. So, yeah, that is. There's a lot going on there for sure. So do you have any other questions on the, on the difference or like, I feel hopefully.

Okay, I want to be mindful of your time, so I'm going to like leave this to be like the last question. But I'm curious if somebody wanted to, you know, potentially work with a publisher, like, what are some of the best practices that you recommend if someone looking to work with, you know, find a publisher and work with them? Because I feel like there might be some misconceptions around, like, oh, well, they're only going to pick Peter A. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So this is it. So, but. Well, you're not wrong. So here's, here's the first thing. You have to be fine. You like, you have to be foundable. Findable. Like the vast majority of authors are approached by the publisher, not the other way around. Yes. So the vast majority of authors are not. Are published by the publisher, are approached by the publisher, not the other way around. I have signed very few books where someone's come to me with a solid enough idea. Otherwise it's the acquisitions editor. My main job is, is to find the people. I have to be able to find you. So if, if, if you are wanting to reach the trade audience or the professional audience even can the publisher find you? If you're like, I love pedal bell training or I love, I want to, you know, help your, like choose. Choose your audience. Like I want to help people do, like, develop on online business and personal training, whatever. Are you putting out content about it? Are you, are you? Can it. Can someone from the outside look in and say, oh yes, this person knows what they're talking about at a glance? Yes, at a glance. More so on the trade side for sure. Because on the publishing side, I'm looking at conferences, I'm looking at who's speaking at conferences, I'm looking at who's publishing journal articles. I still honestly rely on podcasts, to be honest with you, because I need to know that they get it. I need to know if they understand like the, the main issues that people face. But you need to be findable, I guess is the big question, the big thing. Now does that mean like you need to have a million followers, new or thousands of followers? No, not necessarily. But on the trade side, you do need to convince that publisher that you can get the word out and, and that you. This is where the ATIA thing comes in. Think about, again, think about the average person and how they make buying decisions. Name recognition matters. It does. So like at hk, if someone wanted to write kind of a trade book, and let's face it, most personal trainers aren't that well known. That's where the forward, who writes the forward is important. So we released the book. HK released a book a couple years ago called Total Body Beautiful. There's an author team, great author team, and they got Kate Hudson to write the Forward. That's huge. That's huge. Where. So like that's all a part of it too. So don't blame a publisher. I guess like they, they do need to think about sales, their company, they need to think about these things where who is going to draw eyeballs, who is going to be attractive now if it's. But the best thing you can do as far as someone who might want to write is make sure that you can be found and make sure that you do have a unique angle. So like in strength, when I was at hk, doing strength training books was really hard because how could. Because it was almost on me to find someone who's going to bring something, a unique twist to something, right? Like, how many. How many strength training books can there be? Really? Like, let's be honest. But. So when people would approach me about, like, they might say, hey, I want to write this book, I'd be like, how's it different? So if you do approach a publisher, which, by the way, if you did approach publisher, you're talking to people like me, the acquisitions editors, and that's. Those are the first things they're going to look for. They're going to be like, okay, is this person out there? Are they actively putting things out on the topic? Meaning are they speaking? Are they podcasting, Are they writing articles? Whether that's lay or journal, do they know their stuff? Hopefully the acced also knows their stuff, which isn't always the case, which is why some books are out there. And you're like, this book sucks. But. And then can you still. The acad that you can. Can refine it to the point where, yes, this is sellable. So you do need to think about that. You need to like, it's still like, these threads of entrepreneurship never go away. Like, it doesn't really matter where. What space you're in. So those are. Those are the things I would recommend to people who might be looking with. Looking for like a publisher. Yeah, I'll stop there. There's more I could go to.

So helpful. This is so helpful. And honestly, this was fun and we could talk for 10 million years. So for those of you who want to connect with you now, when I say this, okay, just caveat. This is not like, go pitch Corey in his dms, but they want to go and talk to you, or they want to learn from you, or they want to just see the kind of material that you put out. And where are some of the best places I can send them?

I mean, I. I'm Most active on LinkedIn and Instagram, so if you just search my name, Corey Van Wyk, you'll find me. I. And I actually Beverly and I will say I am always open to a conversation. So, like, the, the, like what I do on the daily a lot is just have conversations. Either I reach out to professionals a lot of times saying what's needed. Like, what do you need? Like, what is out there? Where's a gap that can be filled? It's not always viable, but maybe it might. It might be. Or like, if you like, let's say you and I'll again, I'll Extend this to anyone listening in the personal training space, business space, entrepreneurship in our. In our greater fitness field. If someone wrote a book geared towards professionals and you saw their name on it and you'd go, oh, my goodness, yes. Who is it? I want to know about them. Those are the people I want to know about. Like, because that's again, it benefits from a sales standpoint. So I'm always open and happy to talk to professionals. So DM, you can DM me on LinkedIn and Instagram and I would just love to hear from you. Okay.

I love that. Well, thank you for that clarification so that people open understand. Right? I love that. I love it. We'll make sure that we link all of that up in the show notes. So, Corey, I just wanted to thank you so much. Thank you for pouring into me and into us. I really appreciate your time.

All right. Thank you so much for having me.

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