Driving Program Adherence with Matthew Ibrahim

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 230. Today I'm sitting down with Coach Matthew and we're talking all about driving program adherence. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner, and this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance and movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

What's up Coach? Thank you so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson, and if this is the first time you're hanging out with me today, welcome. I'm super pumped that you're here. I'm really excited to bring to you a very special interview that I did with Coach Coach Matt. Matt is a strength coach and college professor from Boston. He's an experienced strength and conditioning coach with a demonstrated history of working in high performance settings since 2007. He is a college professor of Exercise science at Quincy College full time and Maryvale University part time, and the director of Strength and conditioning for Gold Standard Basketball Training part time, and a doctorate student in human and sport performance. He is the founder of Athletic Performance University, an online mentorship course helping strengthen conditioning coaches and exercise science students improve in career cornerstone skills like coaching, creating and communicating. And we break all that down inside of today's episode. Currently he is in the midst of writing a book through Human Kinetics on the topic of training for athletic performance. He is a public speaker and has presented nationally in over 20 US states, highlighted by his presentations at the National Strength and Conditioning Association, Perform Better Sports Academy, formerly Mamba Sports Academy, Exos, Inside Google Headquarters, UFC Performance Institute, Stanford University, Duke University and Equinox. In addition to several international presentations throughout Europe. His work has been featured in Eccentric Future, Hoopsteady, Men's Journal, Science for Sport, Strength Conditioning, StrengthCoach.com T Nation, Train, Heroic and True Coach. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. What's up, Matthew? How are you? Thank you so much for joining me on the show today.

I am good. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. Beverly.

I'm super pumped to get into our convo today. So for those of you who are tuning in and you have not been introd introduced to Matthew's work, I'd love for you to share with us A little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there.

So this is a great question to ask and I'm sure you ask everyone who comes on and I think it's super important. I always get like stymied when people ask me. I'm like, oh, what do I do? Like, how do I help people? And you know, who do I serve? And so for me, I think the easiest thing to do because my wife yells at me that I do too many things. The easiest thing for me to explain is I am a coach and I help people in performance and health. That is probably the easiest way to get to it. What that really means is I've been a strength and conditioning coach for over 15 years now, full time for 13 of them. And for the past two years I was kind of like a nomad strength coach in home trainer, travel to people's homes, slash part time or adjunct college professor at a couple or actually a few different universities and colleges for the past six months. My primary job now is a, is where you're seeing me. It's a full time assistant professor here at Quincy College in Quincy, Mass. So it's, it's a town that neighbors Boston, Mass. So that's my full time job. My wall is wanting to get academia. So this is kind of my initial full time weigh in. I'm still extremely and heavily involved in strength conditioning and health and performance and training. I'm also the director of strength conditioning at a, at a company called Gold Standard Basketball. That job is obviously part time. That's more overseeing and developing athletic performance for youth, high school and college basketball boys and girls locally here in Boston. And I try to educate and provide support to students outside of the classroom as well through my company Athletic Performance University, which is an online mentorship program to round it out. I'm also a PhD student in Human and sport performance. That is at, I'm going to say this one time because it's really long. Rocky Mountain University of Health Professions in Utah, which I'll be flying out to next week for a four day hands on component of the PhD work.

I mean, what a journey. How, I mean, where do we even begin? Okay, this is incredible. Thank you for sharing. So I love, you know, I guess my one thing that I am interested in is, you know, what, what brought you to this world? Were you a former athlete? What happened? Like how did you, how did you get here?

It's a good question. I think everyone has their own story, you know, whether it's, you know, being a bro and reading Men's Fitness in high school, or maybe, you know, tearing your ACL in high school sports and wanting to rehab it. So for me, I think it's a combination of being obsessively curious, being extremely observant, really enjoying movement training, exercise, health, athletics, sports, playing sports at the high school level, getting hurt, understand the, the physical therapy, rehab side, undergoing some of those pieces. And then it was kind of like a convergence of trying to go to PT in rehab school, doing some SNC in training, interning at a place like Mike Boyles here in Boston, that's a really well known, kind of world renowned facility. And then kind of like, wait a second, you can do a little bit of everything. And the whole educational, academic piece, that side of things was like, I, I was not a good undergraduate student. It took me six years to graduate with a bachelor's, failed out several courses, got put in academic probation, finally graduated with a 2.961. I will never forget that GPA with way too many credits that I should have taken. And I said, you know what? I was able to make it out of a bachelor's unscathed, I probably should give back and pay it forward to students like myself who are struggling. And so I knew that the only way to do that, in addition to obviously, you know, guest lecturing or they're trying to speak at schools and colleges and universities, was to get a master's and then get a PhD to be able to formally educate and teach at the academic level.

Okay, great. So your students that you work with, what are their objectives? What's the reason that they come to your classes?

Yeah, so I think that's a good question. And I think this goes along with the initiative in the next three to five years. I don't know the exact timeline. Both nsca, so National Strength Conditioning association, as well as the acsm, American College of Sports Medicine, individually, both governing bodies, if you will, will be requiring that if you're going to prepare students to get the NSCA, CSCS to become a strength coach or the acsm, I think it's cep, like Certified Exercise Physiologist certification that that curriculum in those governing bodies needs to be inputted into the academic curriculum as well for alignment. And so that's something that's very, very interesting and positive for us in the field because it essentially says, hey, you know, those old textbooks and old ways of teaching, for lack of a better way of saying this, we need to make everything new, you know, refine everything and enhance everything, which in turn will it make us less aggravated when we go on social media because of all the people who are in our field that maybe, you know, have gotten in because the low barrier of entrance and aren't upholding the standards of the field. That's kind of me saying it a very nice way. So I think what they're looking for students and I had a great conversation with a buddy of mine just before that who's an academic as well, is we need to get away from like, hey, here's the textbook. I'm going to lecture you. I'm going to read from these slides. I'm going to have PowerPoint slides with a million bullet points. Like you've lost the student. The current student, 18 to 22 is your typical student. But I have students who are in their 50s and 60s and so you have to be really open minded to. I need to lecture and talk a little bit, but we need to have an open discussion and dialogue. Hands on application because it's a movement based field. Like I need to show them and talk to them. Hey, here's the anatomy, the physiology, that's great. The kinesiology, that's awesome. The science is important. Math, show me, apply this. Don't just memorize these things. And so what I try to do in the classroom is challenge students in a way that is hopefully educational and has a learning path to it. Where I want them to apply these concepts and show me. Don't just talk to me about it.

I think the practical component is absolutely essential when it comes to educating high level and you know, really raising the industry standards. Because nobody learns how to swim by reading a book on learning how to swim. You have to get in the water, right? And so, you know, with these types of. I guess it's going to also beg the question, and I'm curious your opinion on it and I haven't done any research on it anymore as I'm no longer training myself personally, is that, you know, since we're adding this into the academic world, the practical component. Is the practical component going to be a requirement in order to be certified?

I think it should be. And I haven't looked into it enough yet. But I hope that it is because the way I'm looking at it is, or thinking about it is if I'm going to become a dentist, right, I'm going to have to. I know, I know. Wow. This is like, wow. Like, whoa, earth shattering stuff. I'm gonna have to work physically, practically on someone's mouth, their dentures. So for me it's like, okay, if we're going to provide students, give them all of the tools on coaching or training tool belts in the classroom through application and practicality, then they need to go do those things out in the field, out in the like actual real world scenarios. And so for me, I think it's really important and that's why I'm very fortunate, I believe that I'm coming from the coaching world and still active in it. That's key for me because I know and we've all had professors when we were in undergrad or high school where we're sitting saying like really, like they got, you know, maybe they got their master's of PhD and it's like everything is textbook, textbook, textbook. What have you done from an application standpoint? By no means am I sitting here calling anyone up. That's not my, my, my goal, my goal is how can we work together as a team to, you know, increase the standards of academia so that when they get into the field as strength edition coaches, personal trainers, fitness professionals, that their ready, they're equipped, they're prepared. And that was what kind of was like irking me a ton to the point where I created Athletic Performance University, which eight week online mentorship program, Shameless Plug. The reason I did that is because I'm, I got so like undergraduate exercise science junior, senior year. Like they need to be on the field, like they need to be interning, volunteering, observing, hands on like, like I go back to Sandlot, the movie Sandlot, like go out there Benny, get dirty, climb fence, don't get in too much trouble. And it's like they need to get their hands dirty a bit. So I wanted to put something out there that says hey guys, this is not classroom based, this is not SNC weight room field based request training. It's kind of that middle gap to help you when you get into the field, you know, how to apply these concepts of creating training programs from scratch, communicating at an effective high level like Jenny Ray talked about and coaching, like actually coaching through using your social skills to reach each individual athlete and client.

I think you're bringing up two really important points that I feel like so many people, especially you know, because especially what I have seen just in my career and in my life working in a commercial gym, I feel like a lot of coaches, that's their, they go into the commercial gym and that's their hands on experience essentially. And as a former district fitness manager in a commercial gym, I know the ivory tower. There's this ivory tower experience of people that are at corporate that are in the field making, breaking all these rules and regulations that we just have to arbitrarily meet. However, it can be a very powerful experience because it gives you that missing component of getting your hands dirty or, or you know, I love that movie Sandlot, by the way. Yeah, yeah, dates me, but I do love them. I do love that movie, but of getting your, your hands dirty. So it's, it ends up being a great jumping off point. But it would be awesome if we could just raise industry standards, which is why you created this, which is amazing. The second thing in addition to the ivory tower, I think is that component of work, of trying it on, of application that also is missing. So I'd love for you to share with us what are some of the things that you see in your mentorship with your coaches that come in. What are some of the misconceptions that they operate from that you work to shift inside of your program.

So I got really lucky. This is the first cohort. It just started literally this week, sold out 15 spots within like two or three weeks. And I got super grateful for that. We got NSCA CES through it. And so the goal is to continue to build that out and help refine it over time, make it better, maybe have an in person component. But essentially the way that I'm looking at it is I have eight weeks, I have eight topics or modules to help you with that I've outlined. And the, the, you know, we have people from all over the world, Ireland, uk, the States. Like, I'm super grateful for that. And we have a nice little like WhatsApp group chat that's going on all the time, discussion board assignments, hot topics, like here's a podcast, check it out and like just ongoing discussion. So number one, thinking freely. I think that's really important. Like not giving them like, hey guys, here are the crayons. Just, just draw. I don't care where you draw. Draw on the wall. Like make a mess. Like, let's have a blast. Let's have some of those muddy open discussions so we can hey, be, be wrong or make a mistake and understand concepts and how to apply things. So I would say be messy is number one and think freely. Number two is I think when you look at the topics or the theme that I've come up with, you're like, this seems way too simple, way too basic. And that's intentional because I'm directly targeting a specific population. I want the junior senior Undergrad student,/1 to 5 year in coach or Fitness professional. And so I specifically want that audience. But also I have found that this little thing in my hand, TikTok Instagram. And I'm sure you see it as, well, Beverly. It's like all these sexy, cool things. Last time I checked, cool does not equal good. For your athletes and clients, good equals good. So for me, it's kind of reining people in and saying, hey, guys, I want to help you. Like we tell people with exercise and training, become savagely good at the basics, right? Squat, deadlift, bench press, pull up, so on and so forth. My thing is, I want to help you become savagely good at the basics of writing programs. So I give them three very specific, very detailed, very outlined training program templates. And then I say, guys, look, this is not me saying, you know, here's your crayons drawing the lines. I want to help you become so good at these three basic templates. Which there's a Gen Pop client, one Athletic performance one, and kind of a mixture, a hybrid blend, so that when you're done with me in eight weeks, you're like, hey, I'm so good at the basics. Now. I've created a really robust exercise library of over a thousand exercises. I have three program design templates. I can train anyone, athlete, Gen Pop fitness client, so on, so forth. And I'm ready to start training people right away. So this is for if they don't have a background, and if they do have a little bit of a background, my hope is that it enhances their ability to be more efficient and systematic. And so some of the things that you're seeing coming up is there might be someone post a TikTok video, an Instagram video, this exercise, that exercise. And I'm sure you see it as well. You're like, that's awesome. Like, that's totally cool. But where's the context that. So we. We delve a lot into specifics. And, you know, my friend Zach Gabor came up with this a long time ago, said to me a long time ago, who's a great physio here in the state? He said, if you can prove it to me in Logic Court with sound rationale, like your methodologies, like, why are you doing that exercise? What is it going to help? Then you've won. If you can't prove it in Logic Court, why are you putting that exercise in your program? So exercise selection becomes this really important topic.

Oh, okay. I love it. And I feel like. And I love it. I always talk about profitability metrics instead of popularity metrics. And it all comes down to principles, right. And reiterating the principles. And in order to do that, you have to know what they are. And most people are looking for like the shiny object, like oh this, oh that. Right. Shiny object syndrome. As opposed to just becoming, you know, reiterating the basics over and over again. If true masters become masters, when one, they say, I know nothing. Right. And they're just repeating the basics over and over. You know, I think people miss that, especially in the shiny object world of social media. Right. And, and it's just, which is, it's a blessing and a curse, right. The law of polarity. You cannot have light without the dark. So I, it's, it's a good thing. It's just you have to be able to navigate it. So I'm curious for you specifically when you're talking about the programs, can you walk me through your process in terms of how you carry someone through an assessment and then build out those programs and how they can use it in their life, in their careers?

Yeah. So like a simple way to look at assessments, some people call them evaluations, the consultation, like first time I'm meeting a human being, right, For a training session. Number one, it shouldn't necessarily be a training session. It should be, it's, you know, it should be very context rich, very information, information based. But also I need to see what's under the hood of the car to give you feedback on how I think we should be driving it. And so when I have an assessment with an in person or online client, absolutely 1000% up front, I'm having you fill out a questionnaire form, I have 30 questions I put together, very simple stuff like, you know, what do you do for your work, what has worked for you in the past for fitness, what are your training goals, injury history, all these things. Right. And then I review that and then we schedule that session so that I've had a chance to at least familiarize myself a little bit with that individual, to have some key talking points and some yellow maybe red flag discussion or things that I've kind of earmarked to really highlight. And I want to get really nitty gritty. So I'm a big, detailed, context rich person. Because the assessment, in my opinion, should write the training program for you. They're like, does it grow legs and write it? What? Like that's what people think when I say that. So it's the information gathered from that assessment should, basically you're just plugging and playing that information into the template that's how it should go because within the context of an assessment, obviously we're looking at basic movements like squat pattern, hip hinge pattern, push up pattern, pull pattern, plant. All these wonderful things in addition to I need to understand your needs analysis. So for me I'm looking at a kid. If it's a sport athlete, what are the biomechanics or common movements in your sport? Okay, great. You're a hockey goalie, you're in professional hockey, you're commonly using your hips IR mobility. Okay, that's going to be a big area of focus along with other things. Okay, what are the bioenergetics or energy system demands of your sport? Again, we'll use that hockey goalie, you know, fast, powerful movements, shifting left and right, aerobic, anaerobic, there's a combination, whatever and then injury risks associated with that position of that sport. So goalie, hockey goalie, groin adductor, inner thigh region highly susceptible. High volume usage. Keep an eye on that the same way you would for example a baseball pitcher irer like they're throwing high velocity, high volume. So that's that information gathered should then help me needs analysis. The movement screens and the whole assessment intake questionnaire. In addition to me actually having a conversation with someone like I think we can also pick up on body language. If someone's like really in pain and they're wincing versus their smile or they're giggling, they're, you know, they're, they're high energy, I can gain some information off of those pieces. All of that goes into the training program. If it's a client, I like a general pop client who's not playing a sport. I'm still looking at things the same exact way. Like lifestyle factors. Oh, you're a mailman, you're leaning to one side with 40, 50 pounds, walking for three or four hours a day, so on, so forth. And so you kind of fill those buckets. Once the buckets are filled, the assessment, the screen, the questionnaire, needs analysis. Again, that helps you write the training program.

So amazing. I love that. In terms of the principles of your training program, what is the flow that you tend to build out that you would say is the most effective to both, to both get gain adherence from the client. As you know, that idea, you know, we hear keep the program the same, don't program job. But then clients get bored. So how do you navigate the dance of driving adherence as well as performance in your programming?

So let's divvy this up online and in person because I think both have very unique perspectives so I'll go in person first because that's a little bit easier. So for the purpose of program adherence or compliance from the athlete or the client, I think the most important thing is take the piece of paper, the program, throw it in the trash because that is not as valuable as your interaction. Like I have learned the, the very hard way a long time ago. Your interpersonal, intrapersonal and social. Your soft skills of coaching are like, do you have empathy? Are you okay with being vulnerable as a coach? Are you okay with not being right all the time? And for me it's like I have checked my ego at the door for all these things coming up about five or six years ago and it completely changed and shifted the way I coach. So for me is be the mickey to their rocky, right? Like you're helping your athlete and client get to their end goal, get up the mountain, so to speak for, you know, visual analogy. It's not necessarily you're coaching them or to them, you're working with them, you're guiding them. Look up the word coach, instruct, guide, give feedback, support, help. Like all of these things are important. That's why when I opened up I said I'm a coach, that, that's what I do. I'm a coach and all of the hats that I wear. So adherence is, do you have a really good coach to athlete relationship? That's number one. If you don't, they're not going to really enjoy being around you. If they're not going to be enjoying being around you, they're not going to pay you for your services. So for me it's building the really good relationship. Remember? And this is this part, I'm sure you've seen it in corporate health and wellness and fitness. We are in the service based industry, right? So we, we, we can't forget we are here to serve them, right? So that's a really important thing. I always liken this to going to like a fine dining experience. You spend maybe upwards of $200 or so. The, the lighting is there, you know, the ambiance, the music, all of these things have to flow and has to be, you have to be attentive to. Because you're serving the client and athlete. So for me it's, if I want to have adherence, number one is I need to buy in and trust. So trust and buy in comes with when that client or athlete, let's say they're, they're in a ton of pain and they're really, really like guarded. You have to over time prove that you actually care about them and their training goals. Not by telling them, by showing them through your actions. Consistency, showing up, being accountable. So that's number one. Build that relationship, that rapport to have that like, athlete to client relationship or I'm sorry, athlete to coach relationship. Number two is be really simple in your programming to start. To start. Be really simple in your program to start at the end of each training block or phase. Some people do four weeks, some people do a month, some people do between three and six weeks. I have found four weeks is my sweet spot. So on the third week of the four week program, I'll say, hey, Beverly, this is our phase recap. We're just going to check in. I have about five or six questions I'm going to ask you. Don't you worry. You don't have to write anything down. I'll write it for you. I'll be the scribe. I'd love to hear, how are things going? Are we getting closer to your goals? On a 1 to 5 rating, like, was the pro, how would you rank the program? One means it was awful. Five means it was incredible. Like, give me your rating. No, no. And they can do it online as well. If they don't want to do it to your face. That's totally cool. And then you talk about, what exercises did you like, what exercises did you dislike? What exercises were. Okay. Because what that is doing is it's getting their input. You want to have their input that shows that you're validating what they think, want, and need. And when you add things, he's like, you know, Beverly might say, you know, what program is awesome, Matt. But I want to do bicep curls now. Scientific, bro. Matt's like, bicep curls are functional and healthy. But I'm like, okay, like, right? No, but this is how. This is how coach. Right, right.

I'm laughing because I have fallen into this trap.

Right, right.

It's always bice and core training. Those are like the two things. It's like, you know you're good when you're like, it's not functional.

Yeah, exactly. Right. So you have to take your bro science cap off for a moment and put your human cap on and say, like, I get it. Like vanity, like aesthetics. They want some biceps. I get it. They want some abs. You as a coach should be able to put together an evidence based program that is scientifically based but also smart, intelligent, that can still add in some of those aesthetic goals in a very seamless manner. AKA you want to build bicep curls. Awesome. We're going to do a half kneel, bicep, curled, overhead press. I get core, I get hip, I get shoulders, you get biceps. Win, win. High five. Right. Being creative and thoughtful and using critical thinking skills to your advantage as a coach. That is how you do. You gather the clients feedback and input. You want them to feel like they are a part of the process and not the process, that it's super crucial. The other piece is. And that's how you get away from the staleness and like, oh, things are like, it's the same program every time. That's why when I gave my APU Athletic performance, University students, I gave them three different templates, right? You could essentially rotate those. Template one, phase one, template two, phase two, template three, phase three. And then rotate, rotate, rotate. That could be a way to do it. You could have up to five templates, right? So have different templates, have input, have feedback, build trust and buy in. And, and you want to make sure that you're always checking in with them at least once a week. They're like, hey, how are things going? How are you liking it? You want, you know, we on the, Are we on the right path? Are you getting closer to your goals? Is it sucking or is it, is it becoming stale? Let me know. I'm always happy to serve.

Hey, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it. And then, you know, I'm also curious. You navigate, especially with this new cohort, do you navigate the, you know, what a coach does when they get feedback that they don't particularly like? Or maybe they, you know, they get on their feedback form. This program sucks. Like, then what, what do you. How do we navigate crucial conversations?

Been there, done that. And I think the biggest thing is you have to be able to have a slice of humble pie and understand that it's not feelings based. If someone says they don't like your program, they're not saying they don't like you. Well, at least I hope. At least I hope what that is saying is. And again, there are unique instances when not every human being is easy to work with or deal with. And I get that those are outliers, but generally speaking, most people are nice if you're nice to them, like, just be kind and hopefully what you put out in the world comes back. So what I'm getting at is if someone says, if you ask them for critique and you ask them for input and feedback, you have to be okay with having alligator thick skin and taking that. And again, it's not feelings Based the way you emotionally receive it and say, hey, you know what? You don't like those squats? I'd love to understand why. Is there something that was specifically bothering you in the squats? Yeah, they kind of bugged my knees and they were really cranky for days. Oh, okay. In that case, I can give you a different variation. So I think being okay with getting constructive criticism and. Or feedback, and then number two, having some of those difficult slash uncomfortable conversations where you have to ask them, hey, are you okay? Can we dig? Are you okay with digging a little bit deeper so I can then firmly understand what you mean? Then I can then make the proper changes for you to keep your adherence up. And I think that part, if you show someone, hey, it looks like. Looks like, like I failed you, how can we make this better? Someone's going to want to tell you because that tells them that you're open to making it better. Why wouldn't they want that? And so getting comfortable in some of those kind of muddy, uncomfortable conversations like language, communication, understanding ways to speak to people, to meet them at their volumes, or maybe they're more high energy and just meeting them and helping them on their path, but being okay with that feedback, that's the first big step for a lot of people. So we definitely cover that in the. There's a module 3, which is language and communication. The power of. That's a big, big component. We're going to dive into module three of the course.

Okay, So I love that. And now I'm curious. Okay, I'm curious because I think that there, there's nuance here because I always talk about two levels of problems.

Right.

You've got the problem that the client thinks that they're in and then the. They're really in. And sometimes they. They want to solve the problem that they're really in in a specific way. And you as a coach have to facilitate the uncomfortable conversation that I always equate to, like, my kids. Right. As a parent, it's my job to create the boundaries to facilitate the change that you might not necessarily like. But I'm going to speak to your potential and it's going to require me to shift your perspective. Right. And I feel like that is advanced levels of communication that is uncomfortable. So how do you. How do you navigate that? When a client's like, no, I don't want to do that, but, you know, it's something that they need, they just don't want to do it. How do you navigate that?

That's a great question. And the biggest thing I think is the, you mentioned the environment. So is it the best time to do this in person on the coaching floor when the music's blaring, you got Taylor Swift on the radio, you got four or five other clients like it's hot in there, it's busy and probably not, right? Hey, do you mind if we sit down after the session for five or ten minutes or, you know, better yet, if that doesn't work for you, are you related for a phone call so that we're both at a place in time where we can, or maybe meet up for coffee at a place time where we can really dedicate ourselves to this specific topic. That is the environment is so crucial because those other stressors that are around will kind of dimmer down when you're in a one on one setting. So that's, that's crucial. Number two is I think it's healthy to have those uncomfortable, challenging conversations because that allows you as a coach to grow and develop. Setting the boundaries is really important as well. You know, I work with a lot of different, I'm using the word different very specifically here, online athletes and clients now because during the school year when I teach, I still do in person, but to a very, very much a lesser extent from a schedule standpoint. So online is even more of a beast, right? Like how do I. Because there's millions of online programs and I have some clients who, they like to send me videos of what other coaches and trainers are doing in the field. And I'm like, that's cool, that's awesome. But when I write you a program, I want your feedback specifically and I want to make sure it's between you and I because again, those exercises might be cool and then we maybe get to some of those things at one point or another. But remember when you see stuff on social media, Mr. Or Mrs. So and so, my online client, there's no context behind that. Right. So we need to keep that in mind. It's not specific to you. Part of the reason why you pay me specifically sought me out and pay me and filled out that form, which is pretty, it's a long, long process, is because I have to imagine you're seeking my expert opinion or an opinion that you want. So if that's the case, I think it's going to be really helpful for us to. And I'm almost kind of going through what I, how I speak to them now. I think it's really helpful for us is if I love your feedback and input, but please send that Input when I sit, when I give you the form. Aside from that, I want to make sure that you're adhering to the four week program because in order for this to work, we need to do this together. And so I think always coming back to, hey, this is us, this is a team. You know, put your, put it on. Hey, how can I be better for you? And if you as the coach know that you're literally doing everything humanly possible to help them, it's okay to give them some professional tough love. Again, nuance, like I might not do this after a session. It might, you know, I like, I like to get to a point where I'm two to three months in of a program with someone. So we have a little bit of a boundary set now. And then you can have some of those, you know, you'll have, you'll have conversations where online training athletes and clients don't fill out their workouts, they don't submit their forms that are kind of like. And you're kind of like, oh, well, they're still paying me. But yeah, you're not able to coach them properly and get feedback to make the proper changes and technical nuances that you want to. So reach out, hey, for this to work, we really need to have us keeping track, feedback checking in is super important, so on, so forth. So I don't know that there's one right answer, but I think there are multiple ways to do it. It's just a matter of building the comfort to do it first.

Yeah, it's so good. And you also, you bring up a really good distinction between in person and so as someone who has facilitated transformations for both, I'm curious, what are some of the biggest differences that you have noticed in an online relationship versus the in person relationship?

As you can see through the video, I use my hands a lot and I'm, I'm very, I act out my words and this is just kind of how I operate. I'm very comfortable speaking. So if I have you as an athlete or a client in person, I promise you that that client, that that athlete coach, O meter will be surging very, very quickly compared to an online, you know that, like that buy in O meter, like that, like that's filling up and so it's just more challenging online. So in person I'm a big high five fist bump. Like, great job. That human interaction piece is really important for me. Like, you know, hand on the shoulder, like awesome job there giving positive compliment sandwiches. Like, hey, great job, Beverly. I'd like to go A little bit, a little bit lower on the squat there. But let's keep it the good work. Right? Bread, meat, bread. Right. So helping them feel like, wow, like he actually cares about what I'm doing. He's actually paying attention, he's observing. These small details are so important. Like attention to detail is so important. Like specificity. So in person is in like, way easier in my opinion. Online, you're like, well, how do I still get this across? Anytime it's a brand new online athlete or client, the first video they get like, hey, your phase is here. It's brand new. Here's what we're going over. It's a video and I use TruCoach. I'll send them a video. Like a quick one minute phase one. Good luck. Here's how it's going to work. Here's what the focus points are. Keep me in the loop. Awesome job. Fist bump video off. And then throughout that first week, two weeks, I might pepper in a couple more videos so they feel like they're the visual component. And then after that, once they feel comfortable, every single exercise, they need to fill out and log. Hey, I did this weight, I did this color band, I did this dumbbell, this barbell, whatever. And I want you as an athlete, as an online athlete or client to send as many videos my way from the training program that I can give you feedback and critique on. And so there's another component there, that element, I think when they reach certain goals or certain milestones or certain things they're trying to achieve, making sure they know like how awesome they are when, when, when they do that again through quick videos, quick little audios, quick texts, all on one app to make it easier for you as the coach or the app, the trainer. That's the best way that I have found thus far to get that across. But also constant, constant weekly check ins, like that's important. Like I don't go three days without, hey, hey, Beverly. How are things going? Like, just checking in. Like, all is good. Keep me posted.

Okay, great. So I'm curious, what do you do to navigate, like when, when a client stops adhering, what would you say, in your opinion are some of the causes that they stop showing up for themselves? And what do you do to redirect?

Yeah, if it's online or in person, you know, is the program to their liking? I would ask myself that first. Like, if I like, hey, do they actually like what they're doing? They haven't showed up for the past week. They've called out, they Canceled. They haven't filled out their online form, whatever it may be. So just that's why I think every three days or so, checking in, just a quick little hey. Like, if you're with someone in person and they're coming twice a week, you probably don't have to do that as much because, you know, they have a scheduled day and time. But if it's online, it's more asynchronous. So that's where I like to check in every three days. It's little as, hey, happy Sunday. How are things going? To checking in, making sure you're good. Any questions, let me know. Thanks. Have a great day. And if you have a few of those messages sent out and there's no reciprocation, no response, that might be a time to say, hey, I've noticed you missed some workouts. Totally cool. It's all good. I understand. Life happens. Let's say it's one or two weeks of they're ignoring you and they didn't give you any heads up why they're ignoring you. They're not doing the program. That's a time where maybe I'd go to email and, or phone call just to reach out and say, hey, I've sent a few messages on the app. I reach out a few times. I'm just checking in, A, to see if you're okay, if everything's okay. B, to let me know if there's something I can do to help and see what are the ways we can work together as a team to get you back on track. And if it still doesn't work? Well, then that's a case where unfortunately, you know, they're no longer with you. And that's just kind of is what it is. But that's the. Those are the attempts I would make kind of progressively over time.

And what are some of the common reasons why people fall off that you've noticed?

In my experience, lack of consistent communication, effort and adherence as the coach trying to get them, you know, doing the things that we want to help them do. And that's something where as a coach, you need to not just say, oh, it's on them. It's not me. Like, instead of using this finger, use this finger. How can I be better? What are the things that I can do? Like, check yourself first. And so I think over time, when you make mistakes as a strength coach, as a personal trainer, as a fitness professional, you realize, okay, like, I can make this mistake and not learn from it, or I can make this mistake, this mishap this slip up, this failure, write it down and take it into action and learn from it. And so some of the pieces have seen, maybe someone got hurt, maybe someone's traveling too much. Maybe they didn't like your program, maybe they didn't like you. Maybe they didn't like the, the gym that they were going to. Maybe they felt uncomfortable. Those are some, some possible scenarios. Fortunately, knocking on wood, I've never had that type of situation occur where you know, they never like they ended up never getting back to me. There have been people who maybe they ignore you for a week or two and they just say, hey, I'm sorry, I've been busy at work, I've been traveling and that's fine. Or hey, you know, I've been really sick, stuff like that. But more often than not, most people will come back and give you an explanation if they want to move on. Hey, it's all good. Like I tell every single athlete, every single client, I hope you fire me someday. Because if you don't fire me, that tells me I didn't do my job of building your ability to be independent from a strength and conditioning training standpoint.

Yeah. And I think that's so powerful. I, you know, the reason I asked that question is I just, you know, go back to my, my days. I mean it's just whenever you're dealing with people, it's really easy to say I'm not, you know, I have, I have no responsibility here. When the truth of the matter is that it's a co creation and when you, you know, you can only control the things that you as the coach can control. And I think that we tend to not look at that and look at how we co created this experience and how sometimes when there's a lack of adherence, sometimes it comes from a place of overwhelm. Maybe you've like from a really good place want to just tell them that's my problem. Like I do all these things and then they get so overwhelmed and deflated and feel like they can't do it that they end up just, just abandoning it. We think that we need to over complicate when oftentimes the answer is just be simple.

Yeah. To, to piggyback off of that. Because that's such a great point. I recently had my mother in law, so my wife's mom say hey, like I want to get into fitness, I want to lose some, you know, whatever. I want to train, I want to whatever. Right. And someone who's fairly new to exercise training, strength training, activity or Fairly green, kind of like a blank white canvas is. I want to trade seven days a week, let's get after it. And I'm like, okay. Like I love training as well. I've done it for 25 plus years and so I don't need to, you know, press a button or change an emotion. It's just a lifestyle thing for me now. I wake up, I go part of, it's part of my character, it's part of my who just who I am. It's my, my routine, my DNA. When someone is not built or designed that way, I think we as professionally to understand, okay, what are the lowest hanging fruits for someone who's brand new? Is it training seven days a week? Probably not. Is it lifting weights for 30 minutes, two days a week, five very simple exercises and recommending walking maybe once or twice a week, Maybe that is a lower, lower hanging fruit that someone can achieve and obtain. Because to me, more and more you realize the person who thinks training is like going on outer space into Mars, which it is for a lot of people, is how can I help them build consistency and not worry about intensity. We all get worried about how intense someone is, how the amount of vigor and how much, how rigorous an exercise and that's awesome. Like if you're powerlifting or lifting heavy, you've done for a long time, cool. Like throw out. It's fun. Consistency though, like help a client, a new athlete, a new client stack wins. First, have them do it for four weeks, have them do it for eight weeks, 12 weeks. Then we can start layering the more like you had alluded to more things that might seem overwhelming up front. Hey, you've done this for you know, 12 weeks. Beverly, you're awesome. I'm going to add a couple other, you know, spices or twists in because now you've already built up the basics and so you know, plug up nice. Plug up. To my mother in law, she's been doing for three weeks, twice a week she's crushing the weights, she's walking out, hits me up, I'm like, yeah, let's go. You know, be encouraging. So it's, it's fun for me because I get to work with my mom, my mother in law, my wife, and also like athletes around the world and clients around. So like I'm very, very fortunate. But I think the most important thing is I don't care who you are, where you're from, what your background is. I know that I'm, I'm serving you and that's an important component that I always have to check myself like my ego at the door, you know that that's super important. At least my 16 year old athlete that I train throughout the year tells me that. So I gotta, I gotta hold him, you've gotta hold me accountable.

I mean I think that's powerful. You know, I think that, that people forget that confidence comes with competence. And this is true for your clients too. At ever at every level, whether it's gen pop or you're training athletes, is that they need to believe that they can do it and you get to facilitate that type of transformation which is super powerful.

So that point like okay, I remember such a great point, such a great point. Thank you for saying that because I almost forgot. In undergrad I, I was in a class called health behavior change. 19 year old, 20 year old Matt's like this, this is dumb. Like I don't need this. Like this is so stupid. Like social, social, social change or behavior change theory, trans theoretical model. Like this is so dumb. Like what? I'm never going to use this. It's literally the number one thing I use because self efficacy, if you do not believe in your ability to achieve or complete a task, like I can't put that level of conviction in you. Like I know when I walk up to a barbell like I am going to lift that. At least I believe that in my mind. If I can't help you build that ability in that mindset in yourself, you're not going to, you're not going to believe in yourself. So I think the biggest thing for me is always encouraging my athletes and clients, always giving them positive and negative feedback but showing them, hey, here's where we kind of made a mistake but here's where you can be more awesome next time. Go, go get it. Fist bump, let's go. And I think helping them build their self efficacy like I had, I called my mom this morning. Like you know when adult call your mom and I'm chit chatting with her. I love my training program, I love my routine. I'm like, she's been in the same one for like five months. She loves it. That's fine. She's consistent. And she's like what did she say? She was like I believe, now I believe. And I was like damn, that's so damn powerful. Like because you know, neck injury, shoulder injury, now she's like I believe. I do it on my own. I got this. I'm like f, yeah, let's go. So that to me is very powerful. So thank you for bringing that Up Self efficacy is like the number one thing for me. The number one thing.

Number one thing. Absolutely. And honestly, that if you take nothing away as a listener from this call, it's this. Because once you can really help empower someone into two ways right in. In helping them expose their own gap where you ask the powerful questions that help them realize that there's a gap as well as get them to buy in for themselves and they get to. That there is experience in or. Or that they're. They build confidence by seeing that they can do it. That is the number one best, fastest, only way to help them become a client and then sell themselves. Essentially.

You.

You don't have that. That's the work right there.

So true. It's the most important thing because again, that that's also getting them closer toward being independent. If you have an athlete or a client who is dependent on you for literally everything all of the time and never grows away from that or gets away from that, to me, like, I don't think you're giving them the skills and that. That's such a crucial point.

Yes. So good. Okay, Matthew, this has been amazing and I really want to be mindful of your time. So thank you so much for pouring into me and into us. So for those of you who are listening and they want to work deeper with you or learn more from you, where are some of the best places I can send them?

The best and easiest place is Instagram. Instagram. Matthewibraham Underscore. That's the best place to catch me. I'm there on there all the time. Sundays I take off, but that's the best place. If you shoot me a DM like, I'll always respond. Ways to work with me. All the links are there but. But just hit me up and I'd love to interact and engage. I think that's such a fun part of what we get to do, not what we have to do, what we get to do. Thank you for taking the time as well. I thoroughly appreciate your time. You've been a wonderful host and anything I can do to help and give back, let me know. I mean this has been so fun.

You're so kind. Thank you so much. I love it. I'll catch you later.

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