From Injury to Peak Performance: Rugby Training Secrets with Georgia Cass

From Injury to Peak Performance Rugby Training Secrets with Georgia Cass hi, I'm Beverly.

Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance and movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

Welcome back to the PT Proffit Podcast. My name is Chris and today Beverly is bringing on coach Georgia, who is a accelerator alumni and a fantastic coach who specializes in helping female rugby players. In this conversation they talk about rules and unique dynamics of rugby, the difference between in season and off season training programs, and common injuries like ACL tears and concussions. Georgia also highlights the importance of strength, conditioning and tailored programs for women considering their unique physiological needs. She shares her own journey into rugby, including her own injuries and recovery experiences. This conversation covers a lot of the mental societal challenges that rugby players face and emphasizes the need for more support and understanding from coaches and management. George's dedication to creating effective training programs and promoting mental and physical wellbeing for her athletes is essential theme throughout this episode. So if you enjoy, be sure to tag, be SimpsonFitness on Instagram, on social, wherever you listen. And without further ado, let's roll that.

Episode or Joe, what a pleasure and a privilege to have you on the show today. How are you doing?

I'm really, really good, thank you. How are you?

I'm doing great. You know, it's so interesting right before we hit record, it is freezing here in New York today. We are dying. I feel like, oh my gosh, is spring actually going to come?

Who knows? I mean, it's on its way here. It's lovely and sunny, so it's definitely on its way.

It's on its way. It's on its way. Okay, so let's go ahead and dive in. Can you share with me, for those of us on the state side, can you share with us a little bit about rugby, the sport specifically and how. What, what is a in season training protocol look like for, for rugby professionals and and off season? Can you just share with us a little bit of the details behind the sport itself?

Sure, sure. So rugby generally is played with teams of 15. That's how we see it most often. But we also have Rugby Sevens, which is the Olympic version. It's much shorter. So seven aside, that's the main difference. It's very counterintuitive in that you have to run forward and pass backwards. Which when you're first learning is so, so confusing because you're just like, why throw the ball forward? This makes no sense. But it also means that it creates a really interesting game where you have to play very tactically and intelligently in order to do really, really well. So it's a fascinating game to learn about. There are so many like laws and rules and stuff, but that's a whole nother like avenue that we've been to go down right now. And the season generally runs from well in this country anyway from around September to right about now. So we're just kind of coming to the end of the season now. I've got my last game actually this Sunday coming up, which is kind of really exciting but also kind of sad because they don't want the season to end. But you know, also I kind of need my body to recall that. And this is the thing is that we need to support the body in this game because it's very physical. It's full contact. You tackle people to the ground, you show no mercy, you run through them. You've got to have a tough, strong body to be able to do it. So part of my business is writing programs for female rugby players because there isn't a huge amount of support for the female players out there. And so an in season program would look, look like we're building power, speed, injury resilience into it, but also balancing out the fact that you have to play a game either every week or every other week, an 80 minute game which you then have to in recovery time. So it's like balancing that training and building up the strength with the recovery so that you can actually play at your feet. And then in the opposite of that, an off season program would look a bit more like how do we get back anything that we might have lost over the season? How can we add mass now that we're not on the pitch once a week? Because rugby players do tend to lose a bit of mass over a season and being big is generally a good thing for a player. Regardless of your position. Muscle mass is always going to be a good thing to have. So yeah, off season it will be much more like let's amp this up, let's really get you back to next start of the next season in September. You are beyond where you were at the end of the last season.

Yeah, makes sense. Well then what happens to a rugby player if they're injured, let's say they're injured in the, during the season and how, you know, I'M terrible at this. In fact, I'm terrible. I ask multiple questions at once. And you're like, wait, can we just do one question at a time?

So you.

My thought process is, you know, what is, what is the typical injury? You know, what are the typical injuries that we see during rugby, how frequent is it? And then what's the recovery process like? And how does that alter the protocol for programming?

Sure. So particularly in women, we see a lot of ACL injuries, anterior cruciate ligament, the knee, if anyone doesn't know, and concussions. So the way that we would prevent that is doing lots of neck strength and making sure we do lots of strengthening stuff in the gym. But depending on the severity, if it's a concussion, you or if you have any head trauma on the pits, you come off immediately and get a head assessment. And if it is considered a concussion or a head injury, depending on the severity, you might be out for like six to eight weeks to protect your brain. And that is not something that we would. Then we can't really edit a program to, to help a concussion improve after it's happened, but we can prevent it by doing, by doing neck strengthening. Because if you just spend like five minutes doing neck strengthening, a 1% increase in your next strength is a 5% reduction in concussion risk. It's like a really quite a big thing that is worth a lot of time and effort. And then in terms of like ligament and muscular injuries, again, it depends on the severity. But most of the time, if you have any kind of ligament tear or anything, you are off completely because it's just not safe to do the contact with those opposing forces. But even if you're a big heel, they're really, really likely to like, open up the, like, you know, re injury yourself. So then I would build in working with a physiotherapist and a physical therapist so that we build in really slowly, starting to reconnect those muscles, those neurons, all the things that do break in those injuries and slowly build up and then continue those protocols within your main training program even after your heal. Because ligaments, for example, never go back exactly the way that they were. They never shorten again because they don't contract. So once you've pulled your ankle, once you've pulled your knee, the only thing you can really do is a let it heal, but then build the stretch around the ligament to make sure it doesn't happen again. So that would be how I would alter my programming based on that.

So how did you get into rugby? Like, what what, what brought. What's your journey? For the love of the sport. Have you been injured? Like, how get here?

So I've always loved watching it, like, since I was a kid. I remember, you know, running around the living room when my dad was watching it, being like, oh my God, this is the most exciting sport ever. But it was never available to me as at school or anything. It was only available to boys, which for a lot of people my age is the same. And it's still kind of happening. Like, I meet a lot of young girls who really want to play at school and aren't allowed, which is frustrating. But it is slowly changing. But I've only been playing the last three years, was the sort of time I've actually managed to get in and I have been injured. So I actually, I sprained my ankle. I was running down the wing of our home pitch last season around this time, and I got tackled really hard from the side. And that's just one of those things that happens. Went over my ankle, immediately knew I'd done something horrible. I was at the bottom with all these players on top of me and I was just like. I could see this other girl who was on the floor opposite me and she was like, are you okay? And I was like, no, I'm not okay. This really hurts. So I worked really hard, like over the next sort of six to eight weeks with my physiotherapist to rehab because I really didn't want to miss the end of the season. That sprain was a very bad sprain and I did miss the end of the season, but I then spent the whole summer, basically. I was like, so determined. I was like, this ankle is not going to sprain. I was just so determined. And funnily enough, after then building in loads of ankle strengthening stuff into my program generally, about a month ago, I splained my other ankle on the same pitch with the same tackle. But I'm playing this weekend because the spraying was far less severe because I had spent so much time and effort making sure that both of my ankles were really, really strong. So now, even if the injury itself isn't completely preventable, it. The severity is much, much less. So I now don't have to miss. I don't have to miss our final gain. It's all good. And yeah, that's. That's basically my journey into rugby. Okay.

Amazing. Congratulations. I mean, but. Ouch.

Yeah. Yeah, ouch. Yeah.

Now, one of the things that you said I think is really important and I'm just curious. Your Take on it. And how do you, you know, you were talking about the differences between, you know, female rugby players versus male rugby players. Rugby, like it's just a very split dynamic, I guess, you know, where you're at, which, you know, we have the same thing here in the States for different sports. But I'm curious, is there a different approach for female players that you use that I think is different, that is different than the male players?

Yeah, I mean, mostly because I got really sick of seeing like cookie cutter programs that were just like, here, this is, this is gonna work for you. This is amazing. But it's all designed for men. Every single picture was a man. And we know that there are differences between with, we know that there are differences. Women are not small men. You know, we've known this for a while and it's more about being able to apply that knowledge to programming. So when I'm programming for a woman versus a man, I will take into account their hormone cycle, for example, so I will ask them to track it. And not in terms of anything in too detailed. I just want to know how they feel on every single day. Because even I wouldn't necessarily adjust the work. But what's really important is to be able to see when the workout might feel harder so that when it happens, you don't get in your own head and go, why am I so? Why is this so crap? Like, why am I suddenly so weak? Why is this? And because that's what I did for ages. I was just like, if you have an off day and you blame yourself and then it becomes this cycle of like, when I can't do anything and I'm not strong enough and whatever. So for me, the mental aspect of the hormone cycle as well as the physical is really, really important for women and confidence and support when you're in a really, really male dominated space sport. And it can be really intimidating to turn up to rugby clubs and places. So I always try and find. And then also within the programming itself, I will look at areas where women are more likely to be injured, where we're slightly weaker in general due to our physiology and just make sure that we really focus on those areas. So for example, women tend to have, we tend to have much, much stronger legs in relation to our upper body. But you know, part of the, one of the massive aspects of rugby is tackling. And if you have no upper body strength, you're tackling a little bit rubbish. It's kind of like how do we build in that, that like strength that wrap so we can get people to the ground and then injury prevention like that. Strength, as I mentioned before, because women hate to train their necks and it's really important. So. Yeah.

So when you're training your neck, can you talk, are you talking about mobility, flexibility or are you like also talking about like adding muscle there and then and strength?

Both. Yeah. So I mean, what I tend to do is like a really basic example would be to like bring your hand to your head and just push and then go either side, like all around. That's like level one. And then you might do one where you're like hanging off of like you say you lay on a bed with your head off the edge and try and keep it all in a neutral position. So that would be level two. And then you might have a resistance band around and like attached. And then you can like do a little chicken. You look ridiculous. It's not, it's not a cool thing to do, but. And you might, you might do some rotations, just anything to apply gentle force to your neck, but whilst also making sure you can keep your head in neutral position because then you're not going to hurt yourself doing it. And if you can provide all that stability, then the main thing that you have is the whiplash effect of being tackled is reduced, which is what gives a lot of concussions. Because concussions are just from head on head contactness. From that like with you. Yes. So we try and prevent that, which is why helmets don't really work. And it's why you never see helm. You don't see rugby players really ever wearing. I mean, we have some people wear scrum caps, but that's more to prevent like pressure and contact. But rugby players don't wear helmets.

Helmets don't work well.

I mean, they don't, they don't not work, but they don't work to prevent the. This bit, which is a major component of concussion rate. And like, so you don't see like there are. The concussion rate in rugby is not higher than in American football. But that's, that's more to do with the rules. Because in rugby we had huge, huge rules to prevent concussion. Whereas in American football you kind of allowed to do whatever you want.

What are your rules in rugby? That's different than American football.

So you can only tackle the person who's carrying the ball for one. So every other player is saying if you tackle someone who doesn't have the ball you got, you're off. That's not allowed. You're not allowed shoulder to head or head on head contact, it's looks at and if it's deemed to be an accident, you might not get written up. But if it's deemed to be something that you could have prevented as the tackler, you will get in a lot of trouble. You'll get a red card or a yellow card. So generally they want you to tackle sort of here or below and in the lower levels of the game since been it's recently been lowered so now you have to tackle below the sternum because they're trying to reduce concealer concussion rates in like the grassroots game. And they're also increasing the sort of intensity of head assessments. So you go off, if you have any head on head contact, you go off, you get assessed by a physio before you're allowed to come back on. So there's a lot of stuff like that. I see.

But the concussion rates are the same or comparable, I think.

So to be fair, I need to look at the. I'm not entirely sure, but last time I looked it definitely wasn't higher, which I think a lot of people expect because we don't wear protection. They kind of expect it to be much higher. Yeah. Not in the same way. Yeah. Okay.

All right, so can you walk us through a little bit about how you would program for a rugby player? What are some of the, and what are some of the things that you're really looking at and focusing on and how do you work towards improving performance in the game as well as, you know, overall strength and health?

So first of all, I look at like, I get them to like, if I had a new client, I would get her to test what, where she currently is. So I want to know what her max strength is in things like a squat, a deadlift, a bench press. Her max speed in a 10 meter sprint don't have to be very long, just enough. And then looking at mobility and flexibility in terms of like injury risk. And then from there I would start to build up depending what position they were playing on the pitch because each position is very specialized and even though you know for most of the match you're going to come up against the same obstacles and need the same sort of levels. There are certain things like for example, if you're a forward and you're in the scrum, you're going to need a lot of lot more like horizontal push power than a bat who needs to be able to run with speed and dodge past players. So there's those elements and then I would basically build their program from there. So there's going to. I usually programming for an in season program. No more than three strengths focused workouts a week, which doesn't sound very much, but when you're also going to train with your team, so and you also probably have a match that week, it's plenty because you need the time to recover to make sure that you actually can perform. And the thing that I find with so many women in particular is that they go well, I just feel like I just need to get in the gym because I don't feel strong and I just need to keep going and keep trying. And they feel crap and they never get how they want and they constantly feel like they're letting themselves down. And so I just try and reel it back and go like this is all you need to do three workouts. I, you know, we'll make sure we include all the main aspects and we'll always include a lot of single leg stuff because you know, you're hardly ever using both your legs at the same time in every game. So lots of Bulgarians squats and lunges, plyometrics for your power sprinting at least once a week so that you know that you can sprint at your maximum. Because sprinting is one of those things that is a skill and it's one of the things that we lose most quickly when we stop doing it. So if you do it consistently, even just once a week, if you're sprinting at your maximum felt your speed is going to improve and all of those aspects. And then we can sort of add things like resistance sprints. So you know, I might hold onto the player. So they're running with me attached to them like Olympics so that they, you know, they can run through contact and then upper body focus as I mentioned before, because especially for women, the one thing I hear so often is I'm so weak in my upper body and I'm like, do you ever train it? And they say no. And then I'm like, well, you know, why do they not do it?

Why do they not do it?

Because it feels, I think because initially it sucks because you know, we are smaller in the upper body compared to men. And when you see a man be able to pick up a big weight straight off from having not really done anything in the gym. And you know, women do tend to be stronger in the, in the legs and you suddenly pick up this tiny weight and it feels like massive thing and it's really demoralizing. So I'm just trying to sort of say, well, you know, it doesn't matter that you start on the small weights because you will get there. But you have to start at the beginning. Everybody starts at the beginning. Everyone's beginning is different. We just have to find where your, where your start is and then build from there. And trying not to get people to compare themselves to others. Which I say that knowing full well that I am the for it myself. So it's, it's quite good. I'm able. I sort of. I'm learning a lot about how to be with myself from clients, actually.

So we need to talk. I. I do want to talk about those two things. Right. How. Which is this idea between, you know, performance and talent.

Right.

So, you know, and when what I tend to find, at least for me, in terms of, you know, like, if I take it to the theater world, which is my background, right, you've just got people. Or when I say performance, let me rephrase, I meant skill.

Right.

You can acquire skill, but there's also this level of talent that seems to be like, what's what. At least for me, it would always feel like, oh, that separates the other people because they're just more talented than I am. Right. So how do you navigate between what is skill, what is talent, and what is going to, you know, what is really actually needed to get someone from where they are to, you know, playing professionally as, as an example.

So I really like that question. A really cool question. And personally, like, I do think that one of the most valuable things that you see in a rugby player is, is less about skill. Like, you have those players that are clearly just like, they played it their whole lives and they're geniuses and they just seem to flow and it's amazing, but most of them aren't like that. And one of the most valuable things I think is work rate. And you hear them, you know, the commentators even in the professional games going, oh, such and such, got an incredible work rate. All they mean is they get tackled, they are already off the floor in two seconds and they are making the next tackle and they get up and they make the next tackle and the next. Or they, you know, they're always there. And for a rugby team to have players like that, I'd say that's more important. Percentage being naturally talented at the game. And in order to do that, you need to be really, really well conditioned. You need to be strong so that when you've got someone on top of you on the floor, you can just basically get up like, like they're nothing and get them off you and get onto the next stage and also have the confidence and the mental strength, even when a game isn't going well, to just keep, keep getting up, keep making the hits, regardless of what happens. So, yes, skill is, it's a very skillful game and if you are naturally talented at it, it's an amazing bonus to have. But I wouldn't say if you're like listening and thinking you don't have a natural talent, I wouldn't say that that should put you off because I think it's far more about attitude and work rate than anything else, especially if you're trying to break through up into the top levels.

So would you say that the people who are at the top levels, it comes down to their work rate and their skill acquisition versus just sheer talent?

Right.

They have to be talented and work rate. It's not just talent up there.

Yes, exactly. Yeah, you have to, you have to work hard. Otherwise, you know, it's such a team sport. You're putting your body on the line to your team. If you're not willing to do that, no one's going to want to play for you or with you. So, yeah, you've got to, you got to be there for every, every time.

You can with the pros that you work with. Have you ever experienced someone where you've felt like, oh, my gosh, they have such a huge heart and they want to do this, but like, have you ever felt like the talent's not there?

No, thankfully, no. No. I think if you are pushing to get into a certain, like, elite level of rugby, you've probably playing long enough already that you kind of know. Yeah. Like, you know, so that's like. I think I would see that more in like, like the grassroots level where people are really, really. But you just know, you know, they. And they're going to be great at the grassroots roots level, but you just know that they're probably not going to get any better than that and that's fine. You know, they're use the game for what they need. They get fun out of it and they get exercise on the weekends and.

It'S an excellent thing and they have more fun.

Yeah, exactly. It's fun. It's supposed to be fun, enjoyable, you know, even. Even when you have rivalries on the pitch. Everybody at the end of the game, you finish, you shake calories, you go and have a pint and it's fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's more, it's more for the love of the sport and have fun and stay healthy and strong.

Exactly, yeah.

Than it is to, like, play in the Olympics.

Yes, yes. I think Olympics is a pretty lofty goal for most people. I get it. Like, what do you, you know, what.

Are your goals with your sport as an athlete?

What do you mean? If I had been able to play rugby as a teenager, I think I would have had much bigger goals than I do now. As it stands, I've come into it. Well, I started playing when I was 30, which is too old for most people to, like, you know, most people, like, even on my team, which is, you know, we're not that high up or anything. I was talking to one of my teammates the other day, and I was like, oh, how old. How old are you? And she was. I thought maybe like 27, just turned 20. And I was like, oh, my God, I am a million years old. This is just. So if you. This was. If this conversation was happening 10 years ago, I would, you know, I'd like to think that I would have maybe got Premiership and, like, because I. I have the work rate and I work really hard on my fitness and my strength and stuff, but, yeah, I don't. I think, sadly, I've missed my window. So. Anything else?

This is what you're meant to do. I was just curious for you. Okay, so something I want to. I want to touch. I want to touch base on. You were talking about recovery, and I'm curious, how do you navigate? Because, listen, athletes are humans, too. So how do you navigate for yourself and for your clients? The difference between I don't feel like it and I'm just motivated.

Un.

Un unmotivated versus, like, no, no, you're over training and you need to recover. How do you navigate the difference?

It really depends on who I'm talking to. Because I say everybody requires slightly different motivation. Like, some people require, like, a really gentle hand where you're like, look, I know this is really what you want. I know you really want to be on the, you know, on training today and now you want to be on the squat route, but you played a game yesterday. Maybe let's do this instead. And even if it's, like, not totally resting, if they're really determined to do something, then I'll be like, well, maybe do this. Here's. Here's a few little things that are quite light that will do you good, make you feel like you've done something and you're not going to go insane. So how I would approach recovery would depend entirely on who I'm talking to. So some people require a gentle hand and they they all be quite determined to still do so, and it's less about, you know, preventing them entirely from doing it. And because you, you know, you really can't control what everybody does, and they wouldn't want to. But I could say, you know, maybe don't go and do your normal workout. Maybe. Maybe here's. Here's a handful of things that we can do that you can still feel like you've done something, but you're not gonna go overboard. It might be some mobility on, like a feeling like cardio or just really deloading all your squats so that you're really light or whatever it is that can work. Other people, I just have to go, no, stop. Because. Because they just won't. And I, you know, over the past few years, I've got better at that. I used to be much more, like, passive with my, you know, if I was getting annoyed with somebody, but. But I. I'm not anymore. I'm just like, you know what? You just have to listen to me. And if it's. If it's something that's gonna work, if it's a home that will work to that person, then I will just be quite harsh and be like, you know, you're not doing anything today. Go home. Yeah, go and stretch. That's it. Yeah, that would be the difference, I think. Okay, got it. So how.

What are some of the talk, like, what are some of the, like, the signs that someone can really pay attention to, to help, you know, help them realize that potentially they're over training and they need to recover.

So one of the main things is, like, little injuries that won't go away no matter what you do. So most people will pick up something, some sort of niggle in a rugby season because of the, you know, physicality of it. But if it's not healing at all in between your gains, you know, you're probably over. Over exerting it. So that's a really good sign in women. Another one is if you're. Whether you're eating enough and how fatigued you are. So, like, I know a lot of women that will train, no matter how tired they are, no matter how crap they feel, because they feel like they need to turn up and do it. And actually, an example, I did it recently. A few months ago, I was going to play a game. I was having a really bad, really bad mental health week. I was feeling like I knew I hadn't recovered properly. I knew I hadn't because I was feeling tired. I was cranky. I. My little Niggles hurt more than normal. And then it came to this game day and all of that kind of came into one big pile and I was extra stressed and I eat and I had the worst game I've ever played and I came home and was just like. And then it kind of compounded because I hadn't allowed myself to rest enough pre game and then I played anyway and then felt even worse and then had to take more time off at the end because it got to the point where I was like, I actually have to just stop because like my body is not functioning. So it got to the point where I just was forced to stop. Whereas it's just so much better if you can just like recognize the facts like you said before and adjust it accordingly. So yeah, unexplained fatigue, niggles and injuries that won't go away. Sometimes you get a little bit joint pain because it's like you're so for example, I've sometimes pain in my hip flexors from sprinting if I haven't eaten enough because I haven't supported my body. So stuff like that. And in women in particular, not not eating enough is a huge impact on.

I was about to ask, is that really like, do women, do rugby players not eat enough? Like, do they, does that, does that come up?

Well, it's, yeah. And it's not just rugby players in general. Like it's female athletes in general. So there was a studies and I, I don't have the actual data on me, but there was a study that basically showed that the majority of female athletes are chronically under fueled. And it's because of this like societal thing where we are sort of trained to always think that less is more, less. So we have this like little thing that says, you know, oh, I could eat that. No, actually less is better. Even if you're kind of trying to actively break that because you know you need to be eating. There's a, there's still a little voice in the back of your head that kind of goes, well, do I need to have that? And then it kind of cycles because like for me, for example, I, I had a really weird relationship with food. It's partly adhd, it's partly like past things, but I will some days happily eat very, very little. And that's my brain. Just like, it's like it shuts off and goes, you don't need to eat today. And then I go to the gym and feel crap because. And I know, I know logically that's exactly what's happening. But that doesn't stop it like, and I wouldn't, you know, I have these conversations with my clients who are going through exactly the same thing. And it's, it's such a weird psychology where like we all know like these athletes know that they need to be hitting a certain number of calories in order to really benefit their performance. And some of them can do it fine, but others, it's a real struggle and eating enough carbs in particular, especially if you, if somebody who has, you know, bought into the anti carb kind of misinformation that is still unbelievably floating about, then you have that. And you know, if you're not fueled with carbs, you're not going to be able to finish the 80 minutes of. It's just not going to happen. So it's, it's quite a complex thing I think for women, I think it's more complex for women than it is for men. But in general, I'm not going to blanket that in general. But yeah, it's something I see quite often and it's all tied into body image as well. And even though, you know, some rugby players, sub positions require you to be quite big, there's still that self confidence thing that comes and plays a role even though their body is literally what's giving them their strength and power on the pitch. So it's this really interesting like two sided dynamic.

Yeah, well, I'm curious how much of the, you know, I'm gonna, how many, how much of the people that, or whether you work with or just kind of in general, do they enter rugby with a performance goal in mind or a body comp position desire? What does, you know, how does body composition play a role in your athlete's performance goals?

That's a very good question. I would say again it depends very much on where on the pitch they're playing. So I will have like, if you have for example people who are playing on the front row, so they're the ones that are like would be at the front, at the front of the scrum, they tend to be the biggest players on the pitch. And I, I do know players that have been told by their clubs that they need to put on more mass because they're not big enough for that position. Because you know, you, you see two teams that are going to play, for example each other and the stats will often include pack weight. So you know, the whole increase everybody. But if you have a pack weight that's 20, 30 kg above the other team, that's a massive Advantage. So there is. Because of the physicality and because of how the game is played in certain positions, it's very beneficial to be bigger. Now that does. Obviously that's not just like, hey, put on a load of fat. You know, let's build some mass and let's build some real strength on there. Which then does slightly alter how we, how we train. Because you need to be in a calorie, um, you need to be eating more calories than you're spending if you're going to be putting on muscle. Um, and you also need to train a particular way. So, yeah, it would. It, it depends again on the position on the pitch as to how much the body composition actually affects how I would train somebody. Um, so now what I'm curious about.

I'm curious about, like, do these women who would get into that position, do they go into that position with a body composition goal or do they like, do they already have, like, comprehend? Like, do they have. If they heard from their coach, they need to bulk up? Like, does that cause discomfort? Like, are they dealing with that or is it. Or do you find that not to be the case?

I. It's pretty individual. Like, some, some girls are very like, if they're a forward, they're happy. They're like, they know that they have to be big and they're like, hell yeah, and I'll bring it on. Others, it's different. Like, so even somebody like, like Ilona Ma, who, you know, she's. Everybody knows who she is now and she, she's not a forward, but she has had lots of conversations about her body size because she's quite muscly and she's not. But she's naturally like. And so she, but she still has those conversations with herself. So she still says like, yes, I love my body and all of this, but she still has those crises of confidence, despite the fact that she's a bronze medal winning Olympian and is absolutely smashing it everywhere she goes and doing absolutely everything amazingly.

But it's interesting, if you look at her, you've got a lot of people who criticize her body and they are. Even though she is an Olympian, like, they actively criticize her.

Yeah. And tell her that she looks like a man, which is just so unhelpful. Yeah.

I mean. Yeah. So I'm just curious like that, like that. What type of, you know, that's gotta, that's a lot for women in the sport. Like the mental load of what they have to deal with from themselves. From what people say, like, it's A lot it is.

And especially with the, with the sport growing as it is, we're suddenly getting a lot more eyes on women's rugby for the first time ever, which is of course going to bring out the critics. Right? That's just what happens. And you know, you get these people going, like, I've seen comments doing like this game destroys any semblance of femininity. Oh, I hate this, you know, go do women's stuff. And it's just so tedious and completely unhelpful. And I mean, hopefully these people will start to realize that they just want to shut up and go away. But, you know, it's unlikely because we see it all the time, don't we, across every sport, across every, you know, industry. There's always everywhere. Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure.

That's a lot that's hard, that's a lot to manage. Now, as a coach, what would you say the level of awareness is for people in this, in your sport that you work with? Like, do they, are they present, are they even present to the, the truth about the struggles that they're facing and seeing?

Well, I think in terms of like management after clubs, I would say probably not because the majority of clubs are managed by men. And even though they might have the right intentions and they might have, you know, be really keen to support their female players, which isn't always, but if they are, they still probably aren't actually experiencing it and therefore don't have a real sense of what it means. It's a bit like not, you know, not really understanding what it's like to try and play a contact sport when you're on your period, you know, something else. Right. And it, it's a sort of, I think we need more, we need more women in the sort of managerial, higher up roles who can kind of start to voice these and start to support their players further down. Because especially, you know, some of the girls I work with, you know, they're coming up through the levels that are, you know, teenagers and going through a lot anyway, you know, a lot of emotional struggle anyway, regardless of, of, you know, suddenly being criticized by men they don't know about something they don't know about. You know, it's, it's crazy and it, and it's sort of making sure there's enough support for their mental health. There's a community of girls around them who can actually really provide. That I think is really important, by the way. I think people are just going to get put off and then we're going to have people starting to play and then giving up before they've even really got anywhere because it's a horror. They don't want to be in that environment. Totally, totally. Okay.

So I definitely want to be very mindful of your time and so thank you for pouring into me and into the community. And so for those of you who are tuning in and want to go deeper with you and learn more from you, where are some of the best places I should send them?

So you can pop over to my Instagram, which is list hair, underscore strength and where I have most of my content or lots of free content there. I also have TikTok, which is at just Lifthurst and then my website which I'm adding to all the time. It's got starting to have some longer stuff on there as well. So that's lifthurstrength.co.uk and you can contact me on any of those platforms, send me a message and if you have any questions and I can answer as best I can.

And you have some really awesome free trainings too, so I'll make sure that we link those up as well. Because some of those trainings I've watched personally and they're really good.

So we will make sure that we link.

Yeah, we'll make sure we'll link all of that up.

Amazing.

So thanks so much for hanging out with me today, girls. Good to see you.

Yes, so good to see you. Thank you for having me.

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