How to Build a Customized Plan based on Pain and Posture with Cory Payne

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 258. Today I'm sitting down with coach Corey Payne, and we're discussing how to build a customized plan based on pain and posture. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance and movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

What's up, coach? Thank you so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson, and if this is the first time you're hanging out with me today, welcome. I'm super pumped that you're here. I am really excited to bring to you a very special episode. Today I'm sitting down with Coach Corey, who is an outstanding and exceptional strength and conditioning coach who has been able to use the elements of the Postural Restoration Institute and how he has been able to customize his approach to actually get client results based on his education and really honestly based on clinical experience, his own personal journey with pain, which he discusses inside of today's episode. And he's really talks about how he can actually drive client results pretty quickly in his sessions in order to deepen client buy in. Cora describes himself as an online posture and movement coach who helps parents get back to the activities that they love pain free. And inside of today's episode, he's going to share with you how you can do the same. Are you ready? Let's get started. What's up, Corey? Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. How are you?

I'm doing good. How are you?

I'm doing so good. I'm really excited for today. Today is going to be awesome. We've. I've been, like, waiting for this podcast to happen forever. So let's go ahead and just dive in. Can you share a little bit about who you are, who you serve, and how you got there?

Yeah. So I'll start off with my story, kind of like a little bit of my background and what brought me to where I am right now. So I was like, probably about 10 years ago, I had just started training and I was into like, powerlifting and bodybuilding and all that kind of stuff. And I went into like, some pretty significant pain with like, si joint pain and some of my like, my whole entire left side basically was in pain. And so I was, like, just really frustrated with what was going on, and I wasn't able to do what I wanted to, like lifting heavy weights and all that kind of stuff. And so I went to, you know, multiple different, you know, professionals, chiropractors, physical therapists, doctors, all that stuff. And unfortunately, I got worse with meeting with some of them, and, like, I just got really unsure about the way that I wanted to go. And, you know, I was training people at the time, and I was, you know, just frustrated because I was walking home and, like, limping after, like, a full day of training people, and I wasn't able to figure it out. And then I ended up going to a course from the Postural Restoration Institute, and I learned about how our bodies are, like, asymmetrical inherently. And that's kind of how we start off. We have a more of a drive into one side of our body. And I learned that that was true for me, and I went ahead and just started addressing that. And I noticed immediate relief and, like, it was just noticed changes in my body that I hadn't, you know, felt. And I could, like, walk better. Like, my wife, you know, she always talked about how my toes are turned out, like, super wide, you know, walking like a fridge and stuff. And so then my toes started coming in. Like, I started walking more normal. You start feeling better, all that kind of stuff. And so I was hooked, of course, and just started taking every course that I could, you know, from them, from other people all over, you know, And I started really applying this to my training because with my clients. Because what I noticed is that, you know, one of the biggest things that were limiting my clients was getting hurt, you know, and it wasn't like I was training them, like, super crazy or anything like that. It's just that they were coming from, you know, a lot of them were tech, you know, in. From Microsoft and stuff like that. And so they weren't, you know, moving as much as they should. And then they wanted to get back into fitness, and so then, yeah, let's do it. And. And then, you know, their body wasn't really ready for it. They were, you know, out of balance and all that kind of stuff. And so then they end up going into pain, and then it would just totally throw off the results. And so anyways, I started doing this kind of stuff as kind of like, you know, let's prep your body, let's get your body ready, and let's get you in a good position. And then no pain. You know, we can get lots more performance. You know, we can push things a lot more without issues. So I really started integrating into my training and got a lot of success with that. And so that kind of takes me to where I am now. I am really, you know, going all out on my program and I'm just, you know, helping people just basically build their body for life. And I mostly work with, you know, parents and people who have kids because I relate a lot to that is like, the drive because I'm also a dad. And so I have two young girls. And, you know, I just relate to the idea that, you know, you want to be there for your kids and you don't want to be the guy like the dad or the mom who says no to your kids when they want to, you know, play with you or whatever, and you can't get down on all fours or on your knees and, you know, hang out with your kids. You know, kids do things on. On the ground all the time. You know, you might not be able to. And that's like, you know, one of the worst feelings in my opinion, you know, is not being able to keep up with your kids. And so that's a big drive now of just like, you know, getting people to be able to do the activities that they love. And, you know, and a lot of the people that I work with now, just because of my reputation, they're, you know, already in pain. And so, you know, I'm not a physical therapist. I'm not like a doctor or anything like that, but I can help people move better. And it's like a different approach than what most people have ever experienced. And we get some really amazing results, like, crazy results, which I'm sometimes surprised of the results, too. Sometimes. It's still, you know, something that just really hooks me to see, like, people do full 180s, you know, on their performance and their movement. So, yeah, so that's where I'm in now.

It's amazing. And I have so many questions. So first I want to talk about the component of pain. Okay, so for you, specifically in your story, did you have, like, an event? Was it just like a compounding effect of, like, a little, like, inky achy achy that just wouldn't go away? Or was it like you got injured, like, you. You moved in a different way and then like, hit the ground? And what was the impact of, like, feeling like I. Like, I'm training people and I can get myself out of pain? Like, what was that experience like?

Yep. Yeah, that's a good one. So when I was going into pain, like, yeah, like, just like what you said, it was kind of more gradual. And, you know, so many people expect there to be some kind of injury or some kind of, like, event that happens. But so often I find this is true where people are, you know, they're going fine, they're doing, you know, all their stuff, and all of a sudden there's this little, you know, like, thing, like, you know, that they notice that they haven't noticed before, and, you know, they kind of ignore it, and then they keep going and it gets worse, and, you know, you try to ignore it even more, and then you start, like, you know, disassociating from it. Like, okay, I don't want to feel that pain because I need to do my day and all this stuff. I need to get my stuff done. That's kind of what I was doing, you know, I was just trying to lift, you know, because I was like, you know, trying to enter some competitions, doing powerlifting and stuff. And, you know, I was frustrated because, you know, I want to hit my numbers and stuff, you know, and I want to improve, but I keep on having this, you know, come up, and it's just, you know, constant. And so anyways, it was just like, you know, just a slow progression. And I find that's true for a lot of people. And so that was one of the big things is, like, I was like, you know, what am I going to do? Like, I'm the. I'm the hurt trainer, you know, who can't figure himself out. How am I supposed to help other people figure themselves out, you know, and so I was, you know, frustrated and not sure how I wanted to go about, like, my future career because, you know, I just finished up school, you know, for exercise science, and, like, I loved it. I put so much time and effort into learning about how to do everything properly, but I still. Still didn't know what to do. And I still, you know, was screwing myself up, you know. And so anyways, that's kind of where I was at that time. So I'm really glad that I, you know, kind of discovered a way, a new way of looking at things and, you know, discovering how the body truly moves. And so, yeah, that's amazing.

Okay, so now I'm curious because you did bring this up. I'm curious as, you know, your opinion and your thoughts and how you navigate the new one. The. The. And I say nuance. The nuance difference. Nuance, of course, that's a word, the nuances between being a strength and conditioning coach, managing pain versus, you know, how you navigate, like, weight, what's out of scope? Because I'm not a physical therapist. So how have you contextualize that for yourself, for your business, and really navigated that difference between what's in my scope and what's not?

Yeah. So the biggest thing is I kind of like what I said earlier. Like, I always preload everyone and let them know that I'm not a doctor, I'm not a physical therapist, all that stuff, and I don't treat pain. And so if something specific is going on, and this is actually something that I noticed, that even people who do treat pain, something that I think is a huge mistake, is that they just look at that one thing. And so instead of treating the body as, like, you know, a sum of its parts, you know, looking at it at, like, as a whole, you know, it's not just like, you know, oh, my knee hurts. Okay, let's. Let's look at your knee. You know, what can we do about your knee? No, it's not your knee. Like, most likely it's not your knee. It's most likely your foot, your ankle, your hip, your rib cage. You know, everything is influencing that knee. And usually the thing that's, like, hurting or whatever is, like, basically just, like, you know, just making up, like, doing that with other muscles or other joint jobs, you know, so, like, your hip's not moving or your ankle is not moving, or footnote is not moving. And so your knee has to take the brunt of it. And so really, like, most of the time with everyone, like, they might tell me, okay, my knee hurts or my back hurts or whatever, but I don't even, like. Like, I don't even actually look at that. Like, I'm not looking at the back. I'm not saying, okay, let's. Let's fix your back, let's fix your knee. No, let's improve your movement as a whole. And then as a result of that, the knee and the back pain or whatever just becomes an afterthought that's not even considered anymore. And then also, I also, like, work with a lot of physical therapists directly, where I share clients with them, and they send me clients, I send them clients. So if something, of course, is bigger that I can't figure out or, you know, it's like, you know, really, like, they can't even move. Like, you know, they can't even do, like, you know, most basic stuff, then of course, that's not a good fit. And I, I need people to be able to do some degree of movement before they can start working with me. And so, yeah, that's basically how I, you know, navigate. Staying in scope is working directly with people and not treating anything.

Yeah, so I heard is just being an honest, transparent communicator and then having, like a really good network is, you know, really what I heard.

So, yeah.

Curious, what is your. I'm going to bring up two things, and I think you can go in both. In both directions. But one of the things I heard you talk about was that you started to notice really incredible, almost immediate results and that you were really surprised by the actual outcomes that people were having. So I'd love for you to speak a little bit more to like, specifically what you were seeing, what people can expect. And then along that vein, how do you. Can you walk us through your decision process in how you decide is this normal? Should this be happening? Are we going in the right direction or do we need to course correct? How do you decide what is. What is working or in progress versus Oh, I need to course correct.

Okay, so I'll just basically start off with like the, the, you know, sometimes crazy results. Like, I'm not a magician or anything. I can't perform magic. But I've seen some really awesome stuff where like, just recently I met with a lady and she was. She couldn't even bend over. She couldn't do. She couldn't squat at all. Like, you know, she couldn't even come close to touching her toes. She was in, like, excruciating pain. And she was just kind of at the end of her, you know, her wits and she was just, you know, frustrated. And so I basically, I saw almost immediately when she tried to touch her toes, like, she was extremely shifted into her right side and just super shifted. And so I was just like, let's just set you up, let's get you on your side. And we're going to have her on her left side. We're going to use gravity to help her to start moving her hips in a better way. And then we're just going to get some slow movement back and forth and just open up her hips a little bit more, Open up the outlet of her hips and. And then, you know, it's just super simple. And then she stood up. Afterwards, I asked her to do the toe touch and the squat and it was like, immediately, like, she could basically touch her toes after doing that. And it's just by basically decompressing her, like Si joint and just getting her outlet to open up, getting her hips in a better position. And, like, she started crying and stuff. And, like, it was pretty crazy. And, like, I'm like, you know, okay, yeah, let's. Let's move on. Let's. Let's keep, you know, but, you know, it was really cool, and it happens a lot. Actually. I'm kind of surprised because, like, people don't really look at the body this way. You know, there's definitely physical therapists that have, you know, postural restoration background or they're certified and stuff like that, but there's really not that many of them. And so most people, you know, they get put through the. The regular, you know, stretch this strength and that, and, you know, it doesn't work for them, and they, you know, get really terrible results. And so then when they see something different, see something new like this, where they're, like, changing their breathing pattern, changing the way that they move, changing the way that they sense the floor, stuff like that, and then they get such crazy results so fast, you know, it's just like a huge game changer. And then the second question, we're just talking about how, like, I course correct and how I see that things are going the way they should be.

Yeah. So, for example, like, you know, you spoke so beautifully about this woman who had this story, right? So do you start to think, oh, every single person needs to be having these exponential results or, I must be doing something wrong? So it's kind of like this concept of, like, you know, no one learns how to swim by reading a book on swimming. And I see so many coaches, they take these incredible certifications, and then they go and try and apply it. And then what? Then it doesn't happen. What it, like, what's supposed to happen? The book says this is supposed to happen, and that's not what happened. So how are you discerning between, like, oh, we just need to stay the course, and that the results will come versus versus. Oh, wait, this isn't working. We need to course correct.

Yeah. So I look at things like, I'm very much like, you know, if this. Then that type of person, you know, I like to see really concrete changes. And so this is something that I do with all my clients is we basically I take them through a movement assessment, and I see exactly how they move. I look at all their tests, and I really use that to guide what I'm going to do with them. As far as, like, the more, you know, corrective approach is, you know, really just looking at the assessments, and then we do a movement to basically improve range of motion or open up the outlet like I was mentioning earlier, or something like that. And then we retest. And that's super important. Just that retest, always a huge deal. Because if I'm not doing that retest, then I'm just kind of like, throwing things at the wall and just like, okay, you know, I'll see you in a couple of weeks, or I'll see you next week. You know, we'll see what happens. You know, instead I'm like, we're going to do this assessment. We're going to look at the ones that are the most, like, the biggest deal, you know, or the ones that, you know, seem like, you know, the biggest limitation. And then we're going to try a drill, and then we're going to retest, and we're going to see immediate results. If we don't see immediate results, you're not going to be doing that. That drill. That's not the right drill for you or you didn't do it correctly, One of the two things. And so then we change up the drill and do something different and see and then do another retest. And some people are a little trickier. Some people, it's like, oh, ye, I know exactly what you need. And then we do that drill, and then we get huge changes, like, I was talking about the lady earlier, or some people are, you know, they're a little bit stiffer or have a little bit more progressed, like patterns and stuff like that. Then we do the drill, and things don't change, and I have to try something different, you know, but, you know, that's normal. And if there's kind of like a hierarchy of things that I go after, you know, first we're starting off with the rib cage in the pelvis. I think those are the two main spots, you know, we can really focus on. And then if that doesn't work, then, you know, we're going to really look at, like, you know, if they're doing it correctly, all that kind of stuff. And then the feet are kind of like my next avenue that I would go after, because a lot of times fixing the rib cage in the pelvis in a better position than the feet kind of follow along with that. But some people's feet are really stiff. They don't move like they should, all that kind of stuff. And that's just totally limiting the their hip and their rib cage motion. And so that's just an example of kind of like, you know, the Steps that I would go as far. Far as making sure that things are working. And if they're not working, some different avenues that we can go through.

What are some. What was one of the hardest cases or hardest clients or. And you don't have to say their name or whatever, but, like, what was one of the hardest things you had to work through? What did you do?

I think the. The hardest people really are like, the old guys with their, like, elbows behind them and their chest super depressed, and they don't have, like, you know, they don't have a butt and stuff like that. They're just really rigid, and they don't have very much muscle either to be able to really, like, you know, change things. And like, you know, because, like, you know, part of this is their ability to move their own body. And if they don't have that ability, then it makes it really challenging. And so I, you know, I'll be honest, I can't help everyone. And, you know, there is some people that need, like, some manual work and stuff like that, you know, to really make progress. But I'd say those are the most tricky people. Just also, they are often a little stubborn, too, and so they don't really want to try new things or whatever. So I'd say there's. There's some psychological part to it. There's the fact that they're just very stiff and they're very, like, you know, they really have that pattern, and they've had it for a really long time. You know, a lot of times it's like the type of people that you lay on. You know, they lay on their back, and their lower rib cage is, like, just way up, just, like a mile up. And they might even not be able to put their head all the way down. And they have to have two or three pillows to be able to bring their head up, because they can't even go all the way down there just because they're trying to breathe. And so they've gone into this really progressive pattern in order to get their diaphragm in a position where they can actually breathe. I'd say those ones are the trickiest people other, to be honest. A lot of it's psychology, though. And so it's up to them if they want to actually try these things and, like, do things that are a little bit different, you know, as opposed to, like, you know, just the normal stuff. Because that's, like. Part of it is like, you know, they. They come to me and they're like, oh, I heard you're the dude. And then they, you know, see all the exercises I'm having them do, and they're. I don't know about this. And then they, you know, do things like they normally do where they, like, pulling things apart and ripping it apart and stuff. And like, oh, boy. So, yeah, so those are the trickiest ones.

Oh, that's funny. Okay, so I'm curious. Can you walk me through a little bit of your process? Like, when you are assessing someone for the first time? You mentioned a little bit, like, you're looking at the rib cage, pelvis, and then feet. Like, can you just kind of walk me through, like, what are. What is your checklist that you're looking at when you're assessing the movement of a body?

Yeah, so I use, like, distal range of motion to determine, like, proximal actual, like, position. And so we can assume, based off of, like, you know, joint ranges of motion, the position of the rib cage and the pelvis. And that is assuming that they have an intact ligaments and all that kind of stuff. So if they are like a normal human, then we will see things that we can predict their movement, their ribcage and their pelvis position based off of their. Their joint range of motion. And so usually I like to see a few, like, global movements to start, you know, just start off with a toe touch, a deep squat, and a trunk rotation. Just kind of see those big global things. And I can start kind of, like, actually looking at their posture, too, while I'm seeing that, and just kind of get an idea of, like, what's going on with this person, what, you know, how do they move? And then after that, I like. Like, I know some people don't really like doing, like, you know, table tests, like, you know, stuff on the ground or on the table. But, you know, people can cheat so easily when you're standing. That I like. And that. And from the Postural Restoration Institute. I'm just, like, really, like, stuck on table tests. Like, it just really irks me when, like, you know, people could do things that they shouldn't be able to and stuff, like. And so I put them on the floor and take them through, like, internal and external rotation of the shoulder. I like to do an active straight leg raise, hip flexion. And then I like to do, like, a modified overs test, you know, where you're adducting the femur when it's fully extended, the hip is extended. And then I like to do internal and external rotation of the hips, too. And those are, like, my main ones. And then there's, there's more like I was mentioning earlier with like some feet stuff and things like that, but I usually don't go after that, like on the first, like, you know, setup. Usually that's something later if we're not getting the right results and stuff like that. But those are, those are the, the key tests that I really like to go after. And then of course, like, you know, also just watching them move while they do different exercises, like, you know, their hinge and their squat and stuff like that, you know, looking for hip shifts and things like that. So, yeah, super important though.

And so for you and in your. Okay, so this was really helpful. Thank you. I took a whole bunch of notes and wrote it down. So, you know, for you too. And you're saying that instant results, crazy results, like, should somebody, if they come to you in pain, should they leave that session out of pain?

Essentially, you know, not always. I mean, pain is really complicated. Like, you know, there's a lot to it then like, you know, it's. The brain could be really good at feeling that pain. You know, they work for years at learning how to feel that pain really well, I know it sounds terrible, but it's true. And so I don't know that people are going to leave pain free. And I always, I never give that like expectation, you know, that we're going to just leave pain free. And I don't honestly focus on the pain, you know, I focus on their movement and their ability to do, go through all those full ranges of motion and all that good stuff. And the pain is something to look at, but usually it's not something that is the main focus. And so sometimes you go and you do a few assessments and then there's their toe touch, for example, with that one lady. And then you do some different interventions, some different drills, and then you take them back to their toe touch and it improves or the pain decreases and it just looks smoother and stuff like that. You know, that's a big deal. Usually I'm looking for some kind of improvement, but not necessarily like pain free or anything like that because also there's like inflammation that might be going on too where, you know, they, they've been stuck in like a really compressed position with their si joint or something like that. And then there might be a little inflammation or something like that in there too. And so sometimes it takes like, you know, a few days or longer to really get some progress with that. And I also need people to be able to not only be like, you know, neutral where they can express those things, true ranges of motion, like on the table, you know, like, passively and actively on the table. But I also want them to be able to do it standing. And that takes a decent amount of work to be able to really develop that competency, actually controlling your body while standing in these new positions where we're basically doing the opposite of what your body has been doing for years, you know, and you've just developed that pattern over and over and over and over. Instead, we're doing the complete opposite. We're just, you know, of your. Your, like, pattern, you know, that you're stuck in.

Oh, my gosh. That's so true and so good. And you really bring up such an incredible point. And I want to. I'm curious how you move through this in terms of, you know, the neural pathways, in terms of pain. Our body does get in. Our brain specifically, does get really used to being in pain. So I can only assume. Safe to assume that there's a lot of fear that must be wrapped around this idea of trying something new in terms of, you know, just even in the same, you know, changing the posture, changing the positioning. So for your clients, and especially in an online. In an online capacity, how do you help them move through the fear of changing positions?

Yeah, so I actually find that the online works really well with this because, like, they don't have to drive through traffic for 30 minutes and then, you know, go to this new place that they've never. Never been before. And there might be some, you know, like, people that are doing, like, really loud stuff or whatever. Say we're in a gym setting or something like that. Instead, you know, they can just be at their home and just super chilled out, you know, just hanging out in their living room or whatever. And so that really helps, I think. And so, like, just creating safety is super important. I'm not saying that you can't do this stuff in a gym setting. It just might add some extra challenges to making sure that they feel safe and all that good stuff, because, like, that's really what we're after, is like, giving the body, like, a sense of safety, you know, and that's why I think that people get such crazy results sometimes, is because, like, giving people back their range of motion or, like, giving them some stability on one side of their body or both sides or whatever, you know, that just creates, like, the brain's like, okay, now I understand where I am in space. I understand where the floor is. I understand all this stuff. So, you know, now I feel safe and So I. I try to also really make things as easy as possible, you know, at least to start. You know, there's more. There's some complex exercises that I do and stuff like that, but I found that, you know, if we just make it as easy as possible to start and just really, like, just simplify things and then we get the best results possible and just making it so I give people as much, like, feedback as possible. And I'm not talking about, like, me talking. I'm talking about, like, contact with the ground. Like, you know, so that's why a lot of our starting exercises where we're learning to reposition the body, we have full ground contact. We're laying on the ground on the back, on the side. You know, our feet are on the wall or whatever. You know, we have just as much contact as, like, possible with the ground or a wall as possible so that the body can sense that safety. And that's, I think, a huge deal right there. And so. And then we can also add in the breathing component where, you know, we're practicing those exhales where we're, like, fogging up a window and then quiet inhales. And just all that, I think, compounds into people feeling really, like, chilled out and, like, good. And like, most of my clients really, like, look forward to doing their, like, you know, postural type exercises. And that's one of the big things that they tell me is like, you know, every morning I'm like, I'm ready to go. Like, I need to go do my. My core exercises or my posture exercises, because it makes me feel awesome and stuff. So. Yeah, yeah, I think that all that stuff just compounds into them feeling safe, you know?

Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that I am noticing too, as I'm. As I'm listening to you, is that you have a lot of skill in terms of. Of how you have taken in information and then. And able to really put it on someone else and as well as help them. Them, you know, have their own personal responsibility. Like, listen, I can't move for you. You've got to be able to do this work. But your eye is trained in being able to create these safe environments for your clients, which is amazing. How would you recommend someone who is trying to acquire the skill learn the same skill? Like how. What are some of the biggest things that really helped you along your journey to acquire that skill?

Yeah, I think it's a good one because, I mean, it is really complex when you get down to the. The nitty gritty, like, you Know, oh, like, you know, internal rotation, to hear abduction, adduction, you know, all this stuff, you know, and it's like, you know, this joint on that joint, but not that joint on this joint, like, movement and stuff like that. And it gets really crazy. And, you know, it's. It is complex. And. But I. I love to tell my clients that literally every, like, corrective exercise that we're going to do is basically the same thing. We're just going to put you in different positions and have you do the same thing over and over and over. It's just really funny because, like, so say someone is, like, in a really shifted forward position. Like, a really center of mass is really driven forward. Most of my exercises is going to be about expanding the back, you know, like the. The posterior mediasteinum, the chest wal opening up their outlet. And so it all kind of looks the same where I'm just bringing them backwards. And then if someone is really shifted into, say, their right side, then I'm going to be working on, like, left stance and right swing, like, you know, in terms of the gate cycle. And so it's going to all kind of look the same. It's like, okay, so this exercise, it should look really familiar to this other exercise that we did, you know. And so that's what I think is really helpful, is just kind of looking at it from, like, a guidance, a big perspective and realizing that, you know, like, the gate cycle or like, walking is like, the most important thing to understand is like, you know, if you could look and really understand the gate cycle, then you can really understand what muscles need to be turned on in terms of the position that people are stuck in. I know that sounds like a lot, but, you know, the biggest thing is like, like most people could get a lot of really great results with their clients if they just teach them how to shift their center mass backwards authentically. And so, like I was saying earlier, just maybe doing, like, I'm sure people, mostly people have seen, like, the all fours belly lift, you know, setting up in all fours, not overly rounding. I think that's a big mistake that people make. But just getting some protraction of those shoulder blades and getting a little bit of, like, lower rib cage positioning and getting a little bit of obliques, and then just filling up the. The back and the chest with air and really getting some true expansion through the entire thorax can really go, like, a long ways with most of your clients and just really teaching them to maintain their abs and maintain, like, a stacked position. So the rib Cage and the pelvis stay in line with each other and as stacked as possible. With every exercise, like, you're gonna, you know, clear up, like, you know, most people's like, you know, people who are healthy and don't have issues, like, most people are gonna do really great with that, you know, and that's gonna, like, take things a long ways. So if you just think about it in the simplest way, gait cycle or shift people backwards and realize that most of the exercises from the Postural Restoration Institute or all these other people, like Bill Hartman and stuff like that, they're kind of the same thing over and over and over. And we're just looking at the gate cycle, really.

That's amazing. So now, out of curiosity, what are some of your favorite cues that you have developed and used over time to help your clients maintain the stacked position as possible? And how do you communicate to a client, especially, you know, over zoom, you know, what it is that they should be feeling? Can they really get a sense of, like, oh, I need to be feeling this here, and then able to communicate that back to you?

Yeah. So I think the biggest thing is teaching them in, like, a very low pressure, like, or low, like, you know, stress type of exercise first. And so I find that that's one of the biggest mistakes, you know, that people make is like, okay, you're not going to teach people how to engage their abs in a squat when they have, like, you know, like 90, you know, of their max on the bar or something like that. Like, you know, and so that's probably one of the biggest mistakes that I.

Think, you know, training.

Yeah. So, yeah, we're not gonna. That's not the right spot to start teaching them new things, you know, and so I'm just gon set people up, like, in like a 90, 90 position, you know, like on your back with your feet on the wall or something like that. That's a squat. You know, that is a squat. You know, you got them at the bottom of a squat when they're on their back and hips and knees are at 90 degrees with the feet on the wall. And instead of, like, having, you know, weight on a bar or even, you know, weight in front of them, just teach them how to engage their abs there with, like, a soft, long exhale where you think about fogging up the window, and then a quiet, soft inhale to the nose with the mouth closed and the tongue at the roof of the mouth. Just do that. And, like, a lot of people can really learn how to engage those obliques. Not just like the rectus abdominis, but the obliques, those side abs. And then you can get like, a lot of like, really good progress with that. And so I think doing that and then, you know, then taking it to some of those more complex exercises really creates an opportunity for success. Because then, like, now my clients understand what I'm looking for, you know, and is I just put them in a super easy position for them to learn what I'm looking for. And then I can take them to a squat or whatever and I can ask them just to feel the same thing that you just felt like, you know, literally a minute ago. And then they got it and it's just easy. And so it creates like a lot of autonomy for my clients as well as just some really good opportunities for success where they don't have to, like, you know, learn something new with a bunch of weight on their back or whatever.

So, you know, I'm curious. That's really good. And I am also curious, like, I get what you're saying when you're talking about like, hey, 90, 90, this is a bottom of a squat. Especially since you work with such active people, do you have to spend any time creating buy in in terms of like, I don't want to just roll around on the floor. Like, do you, like, is there, is there opportunity, like, is there work that you have to do to create a sense of, of adherence and, and trust from the client to like, help them see, like, hey, listen, this is really important work.

Yeah, I think it's harder before I started really, like, putting my, my content out there and stuff. And so a lot of my clients are coming to me with an expectation of what they're going to get. And so they kind of understand that, you know, okay, we're going to be changing the way that I move and all this stuff before we really start going all out, like, you know, max effort and stuff like that. And so it's gotten like, way easier since I started, like, really putting like, content out there. And so people are coming to me because I saw X piece of content, you know, and it helped me with, you know, why. And so then, you know, they kind of have an expectation and I always tell them ahead of time, like, you know, like, when I'm doing like those initial calls and stuff like that, I kind of tell them how things are going to go and I really create that expectation of, you know, we're going to look at the way you move, we're going to change the way you move. And as, as we develop competency around that movement, Things are going to slowly progress to being more and more challenging. And it's not that I don't do challenging things early on with people. It is challenging. It's just that it's maybe not going to be like, quite as, like, fast and all out. It's going to be a little slower and, you know, with a little less weight. But you can get some crazy muscle burn when you have people set up in like a truly authentic position and get the right muscles to turn on and like, it can. Your glutes could be screaming like, you know, on fire and stuff. And so, you know, it's always about kind of, you know, mixing in a little bit, but not too much and like, you know, creating those expectations, all that kind of stuff. And then also I always think, like I mentioned earlier, just like, putting yourself out there with content is going to be key so that you get the clients that you're actually wanting to work with as opposed to someone who just. I, I came and saw Corey because he is down the street from me, you know, so I think that's huge.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. So I'm, you know, you, you brought up a couple of points that you, that you had mentioned in terms of like, mistakes and misconceptions that a lot of, of coaches or, you know, whether they know it or not and whether, you know, I know it is never with the intention to hurt other people, but I'm just curious, what are some of the other challenges or really like big misconceptions? You see a lot of strength and conditioning coaches operate from that. If they just shifted their perspective with huge. Would yield huge, massive results for their clients.

Yeah, I think one of the biggest things. That's a tough one. There's a, there's a lot, but like, it's hard to explain sometimes, but I think one of the biggest things like I was talking about earlier, like, the easiest thing you could do is just get people to shift their center mass backwards more. And so I see a lot of times like people like, you know, like, prepping for their shoulders or like they're, they're prepping to do like a heavy bench press and stuff like that. And there's nothing wrong with know, you know, heavy bench pressing. It's just that sometimes people like, you know, that are like prepping their shoulders or whatever, like they're, they're compressing and just like really getting their, their shoulder blade and their spine like, really compressed together and they're doing like pull aparts and external Rotation and all this stuff. And really you're just jamming an already jammed, like, position and like, you're just like, basically just driving them more forward. And I see that a lot of times, like, you know, like, for instance, like, the calf stretch is one that I think people don't really think about, but it's. It is shifting their center of mass forward. You know, like, everyone hops on, like, the. Those little slant boards, and then they, you know, lean forward forward and then get onto the. The balls of their feet and they barely have any weight on their heels. And then they stretch out their calves and then they go walk around for five minutes and their calves are probably right back where where they started because their center of mass has shifted forward and they're training that center of mass sh. With that calf stretch or stay with the pull apart like I just mentioned. Or maybe, you know, the bench press and the back squat and, you know, all that stuff is all just driving people forward. And so if we can get people to shift backwards and get them to do more like, you know, maybe even a little bit of flexion, I know that that's like a. No, no. Sometimes, like, people think that that's like, totally not okay to flex people, but, you know, a lot of people need it. You know, we got to get people to shift backwards and get them some abs and just teach them how to move side to side and stuff like that. So I think that's one of the big things is do more like unilateral work. So single arm type work, get that rib cage back, but stay tall and stacked. And then just instead of like, just doing stuff and try to shift as much weight backwards, really focus on the heels. Things like that, I think, are the biggest things. So I think there's a lot. But hopefully that's like the. One of the easiest things you could, you know, do is just shift backwards.

Okay. Now, you mentioned that people don't. People. People have misconceptions around flexion.

Yeah. So, like, I mean, we're always like, I think it's starting to change, but people always are like, you know, you don't want to flex through your low back. You don't want to, you know, round or anything like that. And like, I think it's not really, like the rounding and the flexing through the low back that are really the issue. I think that people being extended and so, like, you know, like open scissor or whatever you want to call it, where their ribcage and their pelvis on the front side are really open and just being in that position for so long and like, maybe like crushing, starting to like crush the, the back part of the discs because you're so open and extended. And then we go and flex you and then that's where you can start getting some pain issues because you've just been so open for so long. But if we can slowly shift people back into a better position in like, like a really relaxed way where we're not just like creating more tension around an already tensed, you know, position, then we can actually get some really good flexion because we, it's not that we want, you know, it's not that flexion is good and extension is bad. It's that we just want to have options. And so we want to just create options. And so if someone's super extended and really forward with their center of mass, then we need to give them more options. Otherwise they're just going to go and have issues. And so we want to be able to have them come back and fle maybe a little bit so that they can go back and forth because neither of them are bad. It's just that we don't want to be stuck in one of them.

Okay, great. So now one of the things that you're also bringing up that I'm curious just your opinion on, because when you're in the world of Instagram or in the world of social media, there is this, this trend to really villainize certain exercises or, you know, schools of thought. And so I'm curious, in your opinion, are there, is there such thing as has bad exercises? Do not do exercises. Like how do you navigate that for yourself and in how you select exercises and how you shift your client's perspective on what they want to do.

Yeah, yeah. I think social media, like, polarizing does really well, you know, and so it is tricky to not like, almost be like, lured in by like, don't do this, do this, you know, stuff like that. And so it is tricky. And so I think to think like, say, for on social media you could say that, but then just kind of reel it back a little bit, you know, and then I, I think that, like what I was saying earlier, it's not that there's a bad exercise or anything, it's just that can you manage your position with this exercise? And so that's one of the biggest things that I tell people, like, say I'm working with a client and then they want to go do some kind of group exercise class or something like that. And I'm just, you know, I tell them like, okay, like none of the exercises are bad, you know, because they always. That's often like a question I get is what I want you to do is make sure that you can maintain some good ab control and you know, maintain maybe some hamstrings or something like that. If you can't maintain your stacked position in this exercise, you might not be ready for this exercise yet. But it doesn't make it a bad exercise. And so especially for people who might have just gotten out of pain or maybe even still in pain, we just want to really make sure that we maintain the best stacked position of the ribcage and pelvis as possible. And so like, you know, the big thing is, you know, not right now, but maybe later we can hit this exercise. And if we do hit this exercise, maybe we need to do a little bit extra of this thing, you know, to, to kind of unwind things a little bit, you know. So maybe you want to do heavy deadlifts, but you're, you know, you just, just got out of having some issues. Well, after the heavy deadlifts, we got to bring you back out of being in like a deadlift posture and get you back to like kind of normal, like you know, walk around and you know, go through the full gaze cycle type posture after deadlifting.

Got it, got it, got it. Okay, so last question. Because I want to be mindful of your time. I'm also curious and I know that this is not going to be a one size fits all answer, so I just want to preface that and give you that context. Context. Okay, but in your experience, just in a general range, when do you start to typically, and I know it's going to depend on how long a person has been practicing a neural pathway in terms of like, you know, being in a, in a position that's not ideal and how long that has been. But when do you start to see a consistent shift in, in the patterning, in the adaptation? When do people start to actually un. Become unconscious, competent in positioning?

I think kind of like what I was talking about earlier is when people can really start doing the same thing that they're doing on some of these ground based exercises, but do it standing. And so like, there's a one that I really love where people are, because like I kind of mentioned earlier, a lot of people, a lot of us are stuck inherently into one side. And so a lot of us are stuck into our right side more than the left. And that's totally natural, totally normal, all that stuff. And so what I do with people is I teach them basically how to do, like, an authentic lateral shift into their left side. And that's actually, even though it sounds, you know, super easy, it's like, oh, yeah, I can do a lateral lunge. But most people aren't doing it authentically where they're actually going through and actually changing the position of their hips and their rib cage in order to actually authentically do that. And so there's an exercise I really like that does that for people, and it's something that's a little bit more progressed. And then I like to take that same exercise and do it standing. And usually at that point, people are feeling really, really, like, good when they. They're doing that. That drill lying down and then progressing to standing, and things are going really smoothly. There's also other things, like, you know, we might like, the. The foot is really important, like I was mentioning earlier. And so maybe they're they, like, unconsciously competent when they wear their appropriate footwear, the appropriate shoes for them, or they've done enough work on their feet to be able to do it barefoot and stuff like that. So there's a lot to it. You know, like you said, like, it kind of depends. But I find that, you know, getting that transfer from laying down to standing is. Is huge. That's like, you know, one of the biggest things. And those are like, you know, those authentic exercises. Because I'm still, just to be clear, I'm still like, doing standing exercises with people before they're, like, unconsciously competent. It's just like there's some next level stuff in terms of body control that I'd like people to be able to do. And that can take some time. And then that's usually when people are really, like, doing good.

That is amazing. Okay, so, Corey, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your insight. Pouring into me, pouring into us. Us. So for those of you who want to hang out with you, learn more about you, connect with you, what are some of the best places I can send them?

Yeah, so the biggest place that I am is Instagram, so it's corypain training. That's my handle. And then it's the same on Facebook as well. I have some YouTube stuff out there, but not as much. And then you can go to my website. It's C, pain training. Just the letter C and then pain training. And so any of those works really well. There's some free resources on Instagram. That's a really easy place to get some free stuff. And then, yeah, just reach out. You can, you know, contact me anytime I'm on there, you know, like talking to people and stuff like that quite a bit. So happy to, you know, answer any kind of questions or anything like that.

I love it. We'll be sure that we link all of that in the show notes. And honestly, did you realize that you're last name is Pain? Like Pain?

Yes. Yes, I realized. Okay, thank you so much, Corey. Awesome. Thanks Beverly.

Thank you for listening to the PT Profit Podcast. If you like this episode, chances are your friends will too. So it would be a huge service to us if you would please leave us a review and share with your friends on your social media channels. When you leave us a review, be sure to take a screenshot of it and email that screenshot to my team atinfo simpson fitness.com and we'll send you a very special Instagram podcast that will show you how to create compelling content so that your ideal clients come to you and you go from wanting clients to a wait list of clients ready.

For your service services.

Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you on the next episode.