How to Build a Program with Principles with Dr. Michelle Boland

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 311. Today, Beverly is bringing back a return guest, Dr. Michelle Boland, to talk about how to build a program with principles. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance and movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

Welcome back to the PT Profit Podcast. My name is Chris and I will be giving you your intro. First and foremost, if you haven't already, I highly recommend going back through the episodes to listen to Michelle's first appearance on the PT Provide podcast. You'll have to go back to some of the very first episodes to find it, but it's worthwhile and I highly recommend it. Michelle is someone I have personally interviewed as well in my own podcast, so I've gotten to know her and she is someone who has a lot to offer to the industry. So this is a must listen episode. In this episode, we delve into the nuances of creating impactful fitness programs that are principle based and tailored to individual needs. Dr. Michelle Boland's expertise is not just in her methods, but also in her ability to simplify complex concepts without diluting their power. For this episode, tag Beverly and Michelle in your Instagram stories with a screenshot of where you are at in the episode to let them know when you what you enjoyed. Your feedback is what makes the show what it is and I know that they'd both love to hear from you. Additionally, as you know, a podcast grows with the support of listeners just like you. So if you've been enjoying this podcast, the PT Profit Podcast, you can support it by leaving a rating and a review which encourages new listeners to tune in for the very first time. You could be helping someone more than you know by putting the show on their radar, but that is enough for me. Let's dive into this episode.

What's up, Michelle? Welcome back to the show. I am so excited to connect with you today. Thank you so much for hanging out with me. How are you?

I'm fantastic. I'm so excited to talk to you. You've had a major influence on me and I haven't talked to you in too long, so this is going to be great.

Oh, this is gonna be amazing. Right before we hit record, I was just saying that you were the third episode on this show, and now you be the second person to have a second appearance. So I'm so excited for this show today. It's going to be really good.

Amazing. I'm honored to have a second appearance.

No, this is. This is my pleasure and my privilege, and I cannot wait to get into it today. So for those of you who have not gone all the way back, I'd love for you to share with us a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there.

Awesome. So my name is Michelle Bolan. I started off in the professional setting probably wanting to be a professor, but I ended up getting a job as a strength and conditioning coach at a D1 institute for a few years. And then I got an offer to be the director of education in a private gym. And that's when I transitioned from kind of public to private. And then I was like, you know, I feel like I. I can go off on my own and do this for myself. And so that's when I started Michelle Bolan training. And that was an LLC and credit to you. You helped me learn how to write, copy, do marketing, create email funnels, and you taught me so much when it comes to, like, sales and marketing. So that's helped me quite a bit. Now I move to a corporation. So now I am reframed performance and I'm building, I know, a remote coaching platform specifically for runners and hikers.

Okay. So this is amazing. And thank you so much for the kind words. I really appreciate it. So I. I love it. I think one of the things that I was so, you know, what I found so profound about your work specifically was that you were really, really, really, really good at taking and still are. So I don't. I'm not going to say were. Are really good taking complex thinking and simplifying it without sacrificing the complexity. I think so many people in the world or so many people in this space, they, in an effort to make things simple, will oftentimes. Will. Will oftentimes sacrifice the complexity that is needed when it comes to human performance and movement specifically. And one of the things that. That gets lost in, I feel like, is program design. And one of the things that happens to so many people is there they'll say, you know, they'll come out with these incredible certifications, weekend takeaways, and then they can't implement it. So I'm curious for you, how specifically are you, even with your reframe performance, how specifically are you creating this this new, this new vision, this new method and being able to, to rubber meets the road, set up the. How you take someone from where they're at to where they want to be.

That, that's a great question. And I think this goes back to my time in academics, really seeing what's missing when they teach people things. Because I think there's a huge gap between accumulating information and consolidating. And a lot of my courses that I sell have to do with this in terms of, I think people have the information, they just don't know how to use it appropriately or apply it appropriately and can make this reference to anything. You could make it into like marketing and sales. It's like if you teach someone kind of a general outline of how to post on social media, how to write copy. Well, if you know the principles, right, you should be able to apply that in any context, whether you're whatever course you're selling for, product you're selling for, and that's kind of the stuff you teach. But if you turn it into program design, it's like, okay, I went to all these biomechanics course, all these performance courses. And your world does get flipped around when you work with general population clients. But it's like you need to like have an outline of like your beliefs. What do you think is important no matter what the context is? And then when you, someone comes in to see you, that's context. That's like the person in front of you. Okay, how can I apply these principles and concepts to this person? And that really has to do with like, okay, they may not be able to squat like this, but for this specific person, I'm still going to get them to squat. But maybe it just looks differently, right? Maybe there's just a different variation. So I think it's really taking information and then being able to apply it. And I think that's, that's the key to like learning.

I love that. Can you walk us through specifically how you map this out for yourself and for other professionals? So if someone new knew were coming to you, they were, you know, where do I start? How do I start organizing? How do I start figuring out what my beliefs are? What, what's the process that you carry them through?

Yeah, for sure. So I think it starts off with like making a template. So when I work with, I'll stick with like the context of like remote training clients. So I have a template that I work with where it takes you through a structure and really typical strength and conditioning things. You know, you do warm up. You do like the plyometric speed section and the resistance section. Right. And then the conditioning. And it's like again, it taking complex, making it simple. The reason why that works for so many strength conditioning coaches, it's like you're exposing them to all those types of qualities. Right. It's a fantastic structure to follow. I kind of do the same thing. I may just word things a little bit differently. So my warm up, the intent of the warmup is basically what have I seen in their movement assessment that I think I can push them in the opposite direction to improve maybe a range of motion or position that will help them throughout the training session in terms of. Then I go to the next one. Okay. I need. I need to start really like ramping things up, like increase heart rate, like increased body temperature, all those things. I still follow those things, but I still stick with principle. Excuse me. Positions as like my main thing. Okay. So if I'm doing like a plyometric, if I'm doing a med ball throw, if I'm doing a skip, maybe I'm just teaching them a certain way to do it. That's still following what I did in the warmup. So it's kind of like layering context on each. I'm just increasing intensity. Same thing for resistance exercise. Now I'm still putting them in the same positions that I think will help improve movement quality. But now I'm just using load to be able to do that. And then conditioning is kind of the same thing. Now I'm adding like intensity and like duration of time, but I'm still trying. I'm selecting things that are kind of, I think, putting people in a better position to be able to do, like, accomplish that. So, like, I follow that general outline, but I'm just using different tools such as intensity, load, and like the modalities that I choose to kind of go after the same thing. Okay, I love that.

No, I love it. I love it. And we're gonna. I want to build on that because now, now when it comes to like the template, now you've got the structure and you mentioned that it's different for in person than it is for remote. So I do want to get into why and how you think through the differences there. Curious as well, before we get there is what is the progressive overload process that you think through in terms of your client? How do you improve? Like, what are the blocks that you build out? And how do you assess the performance to either modify or progress?

That's a great question. Progression is Something that I've been thinking a lot about recently. Yes, we do have to have progressive overload for improvement. And that could. But that could look so different. I think in the strength conditioning world we get so obsessed as load is the only thing is. But just doing the thing because it needs to be done or it feels good is still a way to push forward. So like for example, if I do a skip with someone, maybe my intent is to get some more range of motion through their hips and upper back back. Maybe doing a cross pattern. It feels good. It's increasing range of motion, which is kind of what I want, or putting them in a better position. But do I need to add load to that? Do I need to add intensity to that? I don't think so in some cases. So yes, of course you can progress someone with load. But when does that stop? Like, okay, you can't do that forever, right? You can't just keep adding load, especially without possibly having negative consequences. So I think one subjective like feedback and progression. Like is this person being still being able to continue exercising? Maybe you add complexity to the exercise. So more advanced things maybe intensity through more dynamic activities. So there's all different types of variables that you can progress without just having load.

I love that. Makes me laugh because it's like, especially when you're dealing with general population, like not every general population is person is going to a power lift meet or, or a bodybuilder. Sometimes the goal is just to stay consistent 100%.

And it's like I think the biggest lesson for me is I'm wearing a Northeastern University sweatshirt right now. But when I move from public to private, like the athletes I had for four years and some of them never trained before. So they made huge progressions instantly. Right? Then you start working with general population clients. 99.9% of them like don't have performance goals. They and you can't treat them like bodybuilders and Olympic weightlifters. And most of them are in some sort of like persistent pain where it's just still being able to have a movement routine I think is building momentum and progression in and of itself.

I love that. Okay, so now you. So I do want to go back to what are some of the differences that you have used in your programs? Vers with remote versus in person. What are the differences?

That's a great question. And I do distinguish between the two because they're almost two businesses. So for remote clients, they buy a package. So I sell five weeks because four weeks. I don't think Allows them enough time to progress through the training program. Because the first week or even two weeks, they're still learning the exercises. They're probably still watching the videos, figuring things out. Things are probably taking them a lot longer to get through. So I do five weeks and someone's paying you up front for that. Five weeks of coaching and I'm sending them a program for say like three days a week for five weeks. They go home, they do it. If they have questions, they can send feet like videos for feedback. But they're probably in California or Ohio and I can't have access to them. So I do need to provide them with more structure. Right. In person. People where I'm seeing them a couple times a week, things like that. Well, things fluctuate in their day where they can come in with something. Maybe they're having a stressful day, maybe something's bothering them, maybe something's not looking right. I change things on the fly a lot more. So my training plan is much more unstructured and flexible when I work with people in person because there's. I like to be a little bit more like ex. Let's explore things here, see how things feel today and then try new things. Like I don't have. Okay, we've been doing this for four weeks. It's time to change things. If someone's looks good doing something, I just change it right there. Right. So it's a little bit more, you know, like free for all kind of a thing.

Valuable. It's more flex. Yeah. So now to that, to that in that regard, when you are navigating, you know, I know part of it is experience. Part of it is just straight up getting the reps and being able to know your clients and know your, and trust your skill level. But I'm curious, you know, especially for someone who might be new or, or intermediate or haven't yet, you know, started to fully trust themselves. How do you navigate the difference between, you know, being malleable and being flexible as well as, you know, being a complete free for all is like you know, just now, like how are you measuring performance and improving, you know, so that the client deepens the sense of trust and buy in of like, oh, this is working for me.

Yeah, I definitely was like that like early on in my coaching career and especially when I started working with like team sports. When you, you're in front of a group of 20, 30 people, it's nerve wracking. It's. It's like a public speaking thing. And I always had a plan And I really didn't deviate that from that too much. And when I started working with general population clients, then you're right. Like, you just get more experience, you feel more comfortable making changes, and you eventually get to that point. I think the biggest thing is continuously trying to acknowledge changes or achievements, so making sure that, like, nothing goes by in a session without giving positive feedback and reflection. I don't take videos of people enough. That's something that I highly encourage people to do. I don't have my, like, cell phone on me during training sessions, but I think it's important to be able to show people, hey, like, remember when you used to look like this doing a split squat that had nothing to do with the weight and then show them a video? I think that's insanely valuable. And then also in terms of like, the performance aspect that you referred to having checkpoints. So still have to keep track of things. So I have like, a notebook where I have like, my plans and then notes that I've changed or things that I've looked at in the session. So I can always reflect back because I can say, hey, like, even though we're not striving to push, load, push, load, hey, you did 20 reps today in the dumbbell bench press. Say if I just give them like an amrap, maybe every couple weeks, as compared to a few weeks ago, you only did 10. Like, just showing them the progression and acknowledging it, I think is important. But that also has to do with like, quality of movement. Like, hey, you look so much better doing a split squat today. Do you remember when, like, you had to hold on to the bar or couldn't get that low? So it's, it goes both ways.

So good. So now I'm curious for you, right? As someone who has been in the industry for so many years and worked and continued to work with so with so many people, how do you keep your, your programming feel fresh for yourself as well as for your clients?

So for myself, I think I used to get so bored lifting. I just done something for so long and it's just like. So I've, I. My personal fitness journey has completely taken a 180 and I'm off doing other stuff. But in terms of clients, I think the hardest thing is when you've had clients for years. Like, I have clients now that I've had for three or four years. And like, no one talks about that stuff when you're learning or first coming into the industry because, like, it's always just like this linear progression that you're like, oh, you'll just keep pushing people and like. Or athletes where like you'll have them for. They talk about seasons.

Right.

It's like, okay, no, what happens if you have someone for four years? Yeah.

What do you do? How do you, like, how do you, you know, it kind of also goes into the. Like, how do you, you know, there's only so many times you're gonna squat, but you have to squat. So how do you keep interesting. We're not reinventing biomechanics here. So you know, how you. How do you not.

Yes, for sure. Right, for sure. So I would probably do like planned check ins. Like maybe it doesn't have to be anything crazy. It could be like two times a year where you're just like, hey, like, are you. This is the direction that I'm thinking, are you interested in maybe pushing in another direction? What do you like doing? What do you not like doing? Some people, and that's knowing your client too, because some people like novelty, but a lot of my clients actually are pretty comfortable. And this is how you get better at something of doing the same things over and over. Right. And having predictability when they come to the gym. Yes. That, that is just like a consistent conversation with clients for feedback, I think is really how you have to have to get that.

And it's really hard for people to do to get feedback from their clients because it's.

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Sometimes you ask. It's not comfortable. It's just really not comfortable for either party involved. Right. But then at this, then it's just the most valuable feedback you can possibly get.

Exactly. And I think sometimes it's you making things up for them to achieve and that's totally fine too. Yeah.

And, and sometimes they want that. It comes back to knowing your client.

Yes. Oftentimes when, if you ever send like, I'm sure you've done this before, like a, A feedback or I don't know, some sort of survey, the chances of you getting that back are like slim to none. Zero. No one's gonna write out a survey or anything like that to you. So conversations are the best way to go. For sure.

Maybe you'll get one. You'll get like one. Right. But.

You know, no, just talk to them.

It's hard, it's hard to do though. So, but you know, so speaking of that and in that vein, like no matter where they are in the journey, what are some of the things that tools that you have used to improve your clients adherence?

Oh, so offering hybrid Programs so. Well, there's, well, two things. One is a business. You're, you're incentivizing them to show up when I have things like a 24 hour cancellation policy. Right. So there's kind of like a consequence. Right. If you don't come, which I think is important. On the other side of that, introducing more hybrid programs. So for example, you know, working with a personal trainer can be expensive for some people. It's a relative thing. But someone's working with you once or twice a week, will you offer them an at home program that they can do once or twice a week? So it's like they're getting more from you and then they're also getting that accountability of being able to do it on their own. And I think building that is pretty important.

So, so good. And so I'm curious too for you and your own education in terms of how you to grow and expand, what are some of the modalities that you continue to learn about that you implement? Like what are some of your favorite things that you do when it comes to continuing education? Interpreting the saw that that's great.

So I, the first thing you have to do is identify gaps, like what am I struggling with here? So what do I want to learn more about? And then I will find a resource that I want to dive into a little bit, whether that be biomechanics, whether that be business and sales, then I'll go through that resource. And I think the biggest thing people fail at and I try to do as much as possible is cut time out where I'm not learning. I'm writing my own thoughts, writing my own notes and then saying, okay, how can I actually implement this information? What do I find that's really useful for me and what's not useful to me? Because that's also okay. Like just because you learn something doesn't mean you're going to be successful at implementing it or it's necessary to implement it. So I think my focus fluctuates. So I try to pick something. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say quarterly, but I would say probably twice a year where I'm either learning biomechanics from something, someone, maybe I'm learning some business things from someone. You know, I go into things even as like taxes. I want to learn more about taxes. Right? Yeah, I know. And then I won't ever.

Just kidding.

Yeah, exactly. But at the end of that I'm like reviewing my notes. I'm writing notes for myself about, okay, I just learned about taxes. Write A sheet of notes for when you go to do your taxes or talk to your cpa. I need to ask these questions or I need to keep these things in mind. And I kind of have like notebooks and folders where I kind of keep things that I'm learning. And now I'm kind of in. This is okay too you. It is okay to get to the point where you're stopping taking information in not pursuing continuing education things for a moment in time. For me, right now I'm more interested in learning about like running and hiking and those are through like experiences that I'm seeking out in less formal education, like books. So I'm going to like a training camp and luckily it's a business expense, but like I'm doing the thing versus, you know, reading about it in a book.

I think one of the things that you're talking about, which I think so many people miss, especially high achievers. I've noticed this a lot in high achievers is that they, they are always, they, they know and live that in this continuum of it depends and that there's always more to learn, but oftentimes it's at the expense of trusting themselves to know enough now. And I think that, you know, I always talk about contact content and context. You need to have both. That's how you separate yourself is learn something, you have some input and then you put your con, your own context in. And in order to do that requires implementation. And I feel like so many people just miss those parts or they think that that's not valuable.

Yeah, you're, you're so right. Because like, especially if you're bringing things in constantly. And then I think the thing that crushes people the most is the, the statement of you should be like, you learn something and you're just like, I should be doing this. Or you see someone that you look up to and they think about things a certain way or like teach these high level biomechanics and you're like, oh, I should be doing that. And it's like, no, not necessarily. And it's like, well if you can't implement, it's not going to be useful or like you're not doing it right and it's ineffective. Like maybe you should just push it to the side.

Right? Or, or you might not enjoy it. And that can be enough thing that, that could be enough of a reason to not do something.

That's a good point. Yes.

You know, like I, I, you know, not everyone wants. I remember when I was, you know, first learning kettlebells not everyone wants to roll around on the floor with, like, a kettlebell on their forearm and have this, like, big, giant bruise on their forearm. Not everyone wants that. And that's okay. There are other things that you can do.

That's such a good point. That's like, such an annoying thing when, like, the kettlebell rests on your back or wrist. I always am like, yeah, I'm not gonna do this.

I'm not doing. I just thought, okay, I'm going to use the dumbbell for this. For. For this reason, I don't need to have the big ouchy right here. Okay, sure.

Exactly. That's hilarious. Yeah, exactly. It's so true.

And, you know, I just noticed, you know, a lot of people and I noticed this in myself, so it's no shade. It's just that, you know, when we're new, we tend to be more dogmatic about things like, oh, no, it has to be this way. It's because we. We trust in a process which I think can be very powerful. But as you start to, you know, get. As you start to get more seasoned, it becomes more like, well, are you progressing to the client's goal? Are they adhering? And if so, then high five.

Are they, you know, are you not hurting anyone? Amazing job. A plus. I think a lot of people too, get into this blurry line or confusion between, like, facts and beliefs. And it's like, it really comes down to probably most things are just a belief system. And so you don't need to take yourself too seriously.

Oh, my gosh, it's so true. It's so true. Oh, you get, you get to this point where you're like, everything's a belief.

Yeah.

The facts are, someone showed up and they moved, period.

Exactly. Like, how to build hypertrophy. We follow this, like, specific rep scheme and do certain modalities. Well, you actually probably could achieve that 100 different ways doing 100 different things, you know, so who knows?

Is so true. So what are some of the things, like you. You've talked about how you're getting into running and hiking. What are some of the nuances and the differences that you're finding for training, for running specifically, versus just, you know, everyday movement?

Oh, it's a great question. I've. Once I get into something, you know, this about me, it's just like the whole world just stops and I just become obsessive. It's really. It's a positive quality and a terrible quality. I got into running and now I'm like, running ultra. So, like, it's just getting crazy. But for running, for me, I'm running long distances. I'm putting a lot of training volume on myself. I have to say to myself, I'm putting stress on my body. What do I need to do to help myself be able to handle that stress? And the answer of that isn't always put more stress on. For example, people think, oh, I'll go into an ice bath and that will help me recover. That's just probably another stressor on your body. I need to lift weights to be able to move or be stronger or whatever. Well, it's like, I have years of weightlifting, and that's just like another stressor that's going to add to my body, however. So I've tried to, like, excuse me, over this past year, I haven't really been lifting weights that much. If I do do stuff in the weight room, it's more of like, I'll say a movement routine where I'm focused on creating joint ranges of motion and getting some movement through my body. Because running tends to squish me and squeeze me. Like, it compresses my system a little bit. And so the whole idea of stuff in the weight room has turned less into load strength, muscle building. And now it's more like, okay, what do I need to do to be able to move more freely so I can run better without, like, consequences? So that has, like, really shifted for me, if that answers your question.

It does. Now, I'm also curious, you know, as you go through these components for yourself, do you find yourself attracting clients and working with clients going through similar goals, or do you. Are they completely different?

That's a great question. So I think this. And this brings back to your stuff. Like, you're going to attract people who have similar interests in you for the most part. So ever since I have been putting up on social media more of my running interests and whatnot, I have been getting people who have the same interest in me. And that's kind of why I'm gonna open up a different platform for that and for me and my personal life, being able to combine business and my personal interest to me just seems like the ideal thing to be able to do. And that is really intrigued me. So. Yes. And. But okay, this is a question I have for you. You can answer this. This is something I'm struggling with in terms of when I go out and run and train and I do a lot of trail running. That is something that I consider that for myself, that is a experience for me. I don't have my cell phone on me. Typically, it's the highlight of my day. It's joyful. Right. But then it's so hard when I need to use that stuff to market and use for content. So then I started recording myself a lot. You know, I would set up a camera and record some running and then I was like, this is completely taking the enjoyment out of it for me. And then that was kind of like a thing where like, okay, when I'm mixing these worlds, okay, it's negative, negatively affecting it. So I've kind of tried to be like, okay, I'm going to go out and record videos like a separate time. And I think that's been a huge kind of change for me too.

Yeah, I mean, that's what I would say is because. And I think this is one of those things that gets blurred a lot in the social media and personal brand world is that there's this. Yeah. In concept that if you're not being vulnerable or you're not showing. You know, it's this concept that I always fight against this idea of know, like, and trust. And people toss that around all of the time without really realizing what it is that they're saying. And what I mean by that is that I'm not saying that no one has to like you or whatnot. What I'm. What I'm really saying is, you know, we need to understand how people are making buying decisions. And if you are always, always, always trying to build a community of people that just like, like you, then that's not always going to be A, your buyer and B, then always pour into people always, all the time forgetting that we're. We also have to have input for ourselves.

Right.

I feel like. No, like. And trust is people pleasers. Like worst nightmare because everyone just always is like pour out, out, out, out. Everything is content. Everything is content when really poor from an, from an NC cup. You know, and so I feel like there are certain things that you can. So like, for example, my kids are getting older and so I have completely removed them from the Internet. Like anytime I see something that they've. That I've posted of them, I pull it. Like, I do not. I talk about them, but I do not post them on the Internet for lots of reasons. But like, that's, you know, not everything that I'm doing in my life has to be for other people.

You know, I think you crushed it on that one. And that's something that you as a business person really need. And I think you kind of said it right There you have to talk to yourself and have discussions about this stuff because you can't just be like for a free for all. You have to create some sort of boundaries. And I think your point about the kids too is, you know, it's. It's an important thing you need to like, think about.

Yeah. And I think that, you know, and. And people will hear me say that and they'll say like, oh my gosh, like, what a mean person. But it's actually not mean. It's not. It's not about, you know, and I use like document parts of your life. I still document my life all the time. It's just not. It doesn't have to be everything. And you can eject, like I would say, like, I love the idea like, of, you know, trail of trail runs. Like you can have off days or have someone, you know, like to get footage of you, like where you're not training and it's just footage that you're creating that is the f. It's specifically going to be used for that. But it doesn't have to take away from your personal input.

Exactly. I think it crushed it. And I just, like, I'll bring someone with me, we'll go somewhere and get Right. Videos and that's not me, like, doing the thing. So that's been a huge help.

So it's so true. And I think that it's one of those things that people just don't talk about enough. It's like a personal brand all of a sudden. It's like you think that you have to like, you know, be filming content when you're going to the bathroom. You just don't. You know what I mean? Like, not everything is for other people.

Yes, exactly. That's, I think the huge difference. Like this is off topic, but like the huge difference of the social media. It's like your world is no longer this like, internal family structure. It's like everything you do is for the world. It's like it. Everything is external and like, that's just hard to navigate. It can be.

It definitely can be that the true masters are the ones that make it seem like everything they share is public. When the truth is there. It's not.

Yeah, it's not, you know what?

You know, so it. But. But you get captivated in these stories of these people and it's like you think you know them, but do you?

No.

No. You know, so it's interesting. It's just, you know, super interesting. And I think it's important, especially for people who are Professional who are new to the space. Because easy to think that, oh, I just need to do all these things. Do you?

Exactly, yeah. No, I think being very clear about what you're doing is key. Same thing as learning, right? Same thing as like programming. It's all, it's all the same things. Of like, you need to have discussions with yourself. Of like, what do you believe? What do you think is overarching, like important. What's. Concepts like principles in program design are the same thing as someone saying what are your values in life? It's like you need to determine how you want to live. You need to determine how you want to program for people. You can't just like be at everything at a whim, you know? I do.

So, you know, it's interesting, right. So sometimes when I get into these conversations that, that just really are so simple because some of this stuff is just, just really simple. It starts to get me to wonder, you know, why is it so hard for people then? If it's just so simple, why do so many people struggle, in your opinion?

That's a, that's a great question. It's, it's hard for me sometimes to talk about like program because like you, like you said, it's like the, the context. But I think I try to really drive home the idea of like. You need to outline what's important to you. If you can't establish what's important in programming, then when you go down to program for someone, it's, it's going to be overwhelming. You're going to just throw things on a piece of paper. It's going to take a ton of time for you. It's not going to allow you to kind of have a direction. So I think before you program for someone, you should program almost your belief system of like. And then like you said, taking the complex is simple. Write it all out. It's probably going to look crazy. There's going to be a lot of words on the page and then take another blank piece of paper, cut it down and then cut it down, make it more simple. And then boom, turn that into just like a decision making process. Step by step, that's for you. And then boom. You'll, you'll be amazed at how simple things can be after that. That.

Are you still collecting your like, library of like? These are my squat patterns. These are my, you know, hinge patterns. Are you still collecting your exercise selections and then plugging. Plugging and playing it?

Yeah. So that's a great question. So I kind of have my decision Making model. When it comes to what exercise am I going to select the biggest thing on the bottom of that? It's like a pyramid. The biggest thing is position. And I have like a whole course, like position principles. And it's okay, like this person is biased towards moving a certain way. They're kind of locked in, maybe in their upper back. Maybe I need to open up that space a little bit. What position is going to allow them to open that space up? Maybe push them in the opposite direction that they're biased towards moving. And then, okay, I say, now what fitness quality can I add to this? Am I gonna put them in this position and do a row, Maybe do a press, maybe do a squat? And then, okay, how are they doing that? Are they not doing it so well? Okay, maybe I'll just elevate their heel. Maybe I'll have them hold the kettlebell a different way. And so that would be a variation. So my decision making processes, what position do I want to put them in, what fitness quality or activity do I want them to be doing? And then any variations or modifications? And that's how I basically build exercises. So I don't follow the whole, like they need to do a push pull, a knee dominant, hip dominant. I just say kind of what I talked about. Like, I want to help them move better. What's going to help me do that? Okay, what exercise, like, do I want them to be doing and then change it how based on that person in the context.

So speaking of that, does your decision pyramid change depending on what their goal is? Like, for example, if you have someone who wants to run an ultra marathon, is your decision pyramid gonna or your decision process gonna change versus like a gen pop who's never worked out in a gym before?

Yes, exactly like that. Someone who has like a performance goal. I'm probably gonna be a lot more specific and I'm also gonna consider what that performance is doing. Think people try to be like, okay, this person's a runner, this person is a hockey player. Let me, let me do things in the gym that make it look like this. For example, like if I'm running, right, and I'm doing plyometrics in the gym, well, isn't running just like a low level plyometric? Right. So aren't I just doing the same thing and putting more stress of the same thing on my body? Maybe what I need to figure out is what I'm not good at and do the opposite of that in the gym or do what I'm not good at in the gym, whereas a general population person would have a larger spectrum. So you need to hit like things they are really good at and like you need to load the system, stress the system a lot more and sprinkling some things that like, are limiting them or like barriers. So there's definitely going to be two approaches there in terms of the performance oriented person. That is the thing that you should be considering versus general population. It's like, well, they need to be exposed to a lot more, more things and like the gym is almost a performance setting to them where I think people get confused that the gym is not the performance setting for like a professional athlete or someone who's competing in something.

So true. So good. Okay, so I want to be mindful of your time and respectful. So thank you so much for pouring into me, into my community. I really appreciate it. What are some of the best places that I can send them if they're interested in learning more from you or going deeper with you?

Awesome. So feel free to reach out on Instagram. That's where I basically post everything. And that is at Dr. Michelle Bolen. And then my website is michellebolin-training.com and it was an absolute pleasure. It was great to see you, Beverly. So good.

And I'll make sure that we link all that up in the show notes.

Awesome. Thank you.

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