How To Program for Your Clients with Todd Bumgardner

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 51. Today I'm sitting down with Todd Baumgarter of Strength Faction and we're talking all about how to program for your clients. Are you ready? Stay tuned. Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance in movement package and their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast. Welcome back to another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson and thank you so much for pushing Play today because we have an awesome interview. I sat down with Todd Baumgartner, who is the co founder and CEO of Strength Faction, which is a mentorship program for fitness professionals that's dedicated to helping coaches and trainers create their own path in the fitness industry. He's also the co owner and director of staff development at Beyond Strength, a private training gym in Northern Virginia. And apart from that, he also serves on the human performance team for a full time tactical unit and is the founder of Human Predator Pack Meal, which he does talk a little bit about in his introduction in this episode which is a training service devoted to backcountry hunters. And in his free time he hunts, writes, reads and plays guitar. Now this episode we talk a lot about how to create effective programs for your clients, whether they are new, whether they are seasoned. We talk a lot about how to create buy in for our clients and of course I cannot help it, but I have to talk about marketing as well. It's just always in me. So while this is a Thursday episode and we do get into some science here and we talk about the main components for programs and Todd even talks about how in Strength Faction specifically they teach how to create a program in six minutes. That's one of the components that's part of Strength Faction. We do start talking a little bit about some marketing things, about how to position yourself, pricing, and we talked a little bit about messaging in here from a fitness standpoint and what are some of the things that you can do. So it's a really well rounded episode. It was an awesome conversation. And I share in this episode a little bit about my experience working with Strength Faction. And one of the things I didn't say, but I'm going to say it here because it's really important that one of the things that Todd and Chris specifically do very well in their programs is the way that they take care of their clients. And what I mean by that, as someone who was a client of Strength Action, the personal touch that they included in their membership in how they connect with their clients, it's unlike most things I've seen. As someone who's worked with hundreds of personal trainers, they're. The little stuff goes a really long way. And what Todd and Chris give is unlike many programs out there, even on a scale model. Because I'll tell you which I shared part of this story inside this episode that you're about to hear. But I use their programming templates for years and Chris got on a call with me when I was struggling with with programming something specific for a runner and the personal notes they give to their clients, even a Strength Faction member, it was top notch. And so I'm really excited for you to get into this episode because it's an awesome one. So without further ado, let's roll that interview. What's up, Todd? I am so excited to have you on the show. Thank you for being here. How are you?

Oh, I'm great. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I'm excited to talk.

Yeah, this is going to be so great. As people heard from the intro, I really feel like Strength Faction and working with you was right at the beginning of when I started. So it is really a pleasure and a privilege to have you on the show.

I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Okay, great. So just let's go ahead and just dive right in. Can you share with a little bit, can you share with our audience a little bit about who you are, how you started and who you serve and how you got there?

Yeah, for sure. So as the intro said, my name is Todd Baumgartner. I co own a gym in Dulles, Virginia. Well, it should be called Sterling, but everybody says Dulles because they don't want to say Sterling called Beyond Strength. We're actually just rebranding right now and changing our name and we do mostly semi private training which most people would know as semi private training. We call it small group personal training. Just because when you say semi private to someone outside the fitness industry, like a client, they have no idea what you're talking about and it's hard for them to conceptualize it. So we call it small group personal training. I'm also the co owner and co founder of Strength Faction, which is a mentorship program with multiple levels for fitness professionals, strength coaches and personal trainers. And I'm also on the human Performance team for a full time tactical law enforcement unit, which is a mouthful and I have to say it that way because we were not really allowed to talk about who the group is. So I do that. And then I also have a little side gig that I'm going to grow called Human Predator Pack mule, where I train hunters for mountain hunting.

That is amazing. So first I didn't know about the law enforcement and of course since NYPD detectives. So that is something that, you know, resonates with us. And I'll, you know, not, I'll confess and I've said it for a while that, you know, his strength and his weight management, that's definitely been a concern. So I know that that's, that's really important.

So for sure.

And hunters, that's so cool. I mean, oh my gosh, my mind is going all over the place with, you know, you want to talk about niching down. That's very specific.

Yeah, well, and that's, you know, but it's something that I'm passionate about. So it's easy because I'm essentially, I'm training people like me, which makes it easy to tell the story and send the message. And then, you know, I wanted to have another online business that is more of an outlet and more of a passion for me. And the thing about it is, just as I'm sure that you've talked about, especially right now, starting 2021 with everybody going online, unless you're solid with your niche, you're just going to be white noise. So it's like I'm, I'm trying to niche down with that as much as possible, so.

Good. All right. I have a million questions based on what you said, but I do, you know, so one of the things that, you know, speaking of niching and I know this is a Thursday episode, so we are going to get into some science. Don't worry. But you know, I'm curious. One of the things that I talk about a lot is making sure that we're solid with an offer and one offer at a time. But how are you managing multiple offers and almost multiple different businesses with your content and how you're showing up for your different audiences?

Well, the good news about the gym is we have a team. So that makes it a lot easier to have all the work spread across six people. And you know, for there it's. When we set up our offer for the gym, it was what we thought about was what do we really need to give to people to cut the risk but also give them the opportunity to experience what's really valuable about coming to our gym. And so since we do small group personal training and there's multiple offers within that, we do a free week. And that free week rotates into a 21 day VIP experience, which is essentially a trial. But we just don't say it that way because when we used to call it a trial, we'd get a bunch of tire kickers. And so that's how we manage that and Chris manages a lot of that stuff for the gym. When it comes to Strength Faction, we have a value ladder and we market our lowest level offering, which is our monthly mini courses. And you can start for the first month for a dollar. So it's a pretty easy, low risk ton of value first month. And then we walk people up into our coaching program and then if they are business owners, we also have a business coaching group when they're ready to be there. And then quite honestly, with, with Human Predator Pack Mule, everything is referral based mostly right now. When I first started it, I had some, some clients and they've just been bringing me people and I haven't really put the structure to that business yet to know exactly what I want to do with it. So.

Okay, great. But that's, that's amazing. Okay, so I know today we were gonna, we're gonna sit and talk about programming and I lot of people and I'll just say for me, the reason why, the reason why we're talking about programming is my experience with Strength Action when I worked way back, like, I think I was maybe generation two.

I think so, yeah.

I think I was the second generation of that program. One of the things that I. There were two things that were the most valuable to me, which was number one as a fitness manager, because that's what I was at the time. I'm working with trainers and I'm working with my own clients. So I had absolutely no energy reserve for my own programming, which I think happens to a lot of people. And I think people miss that. They miss the fact that once you become a business owner or a fitness manager or a trainer, you're going to have the same problems that your clients are having. I'm too busy, I'm not motivated, I'm too tired. Somebody's got to take that programming off your plate.

Oh, without a doubt. I think that's honestly one of the first reasons that we started Strength Faction in the form that it eventually became. Because Chris and I look back at the times when we were super busy and we were stressed out and we had businesses starting or we had busy client schedules. And the first thing we started to do, I mean, stop doing, was taking care of ourselves. And then as soon as we started taking care of ourselves again, everything got better and we actually made a lot more progress. And we just saw it as, you know, the common theme across the industry is as soon as people get busy, they start cutting their session short or they start thinking that, well, if I can't do the whole program, it's not worth doing anything today. And then it just snowballs into this, like, negative momentum of you wake up one day and you're really unpleased with your fitness, you're unpleased with your body, and you're unpleased with your health. And if you get to that point, it's really difficult to take care of anybody else, so.

True. And I'm a firm believer that if you're not growing, you're not just staying stagnant, you're getting behind.

Absolutely. I think it's tough to lead people if you're not doing the things that you need to do to take care of yourself, too. And that's one of the things that we have as a value at our gym for our coaches is to seek challenge. Because if we're not constantly trying to grow in some way and we're not on that path, it's difficult to help anybody else get on that path and stay on it.

And from an energetic perspective, if you are not practicing what you're preaching, people can feel that.

Oh, yeah. And you feel it, too. You feel like a bum. You don't feel like. You feel like an imposter.

Exactly. Or you start to feel like you can't sell.

Yeah.

Because you're not practicing. And it's not about. Which I always say, it's not about the look of a body. It's not. Your look does not measure your health. But if you are not practicing what you're preaching, that's different.

It is. It's totally different. And it is. I think it comes down to a confidence. It comes down to confidence and being able to sit in front of someone and. And. And tell them that you. And be confident that you can help them. And if you don't feel that way, you're not going to be able to sell yourself. You're just not. And I think, you know, from the programming standpoint and really understanding what you can provide, it's. Unless you have that dialed into, it's really tough to sell it.

Yes. And so that's also a Great segue too is that a lot of trainers struggle with their confidence in their programming. It's literally the number one question that all that trainers will have across the board in terms of beginner, intermediate and advanced. Because I think that you're faced with two different struggles. Number one is what? You know, how do we even, how do we even put a program together? And then number two, how do we create a client buy in? Because sometimes programming is not fun, but they have to do the same thing over and over again. So how do you create that client buy in and then how do you hit the patterns? You know, when you're working with a client for maybe a year, two years, how do you keep it?

Well, I think just jump in with buy in. I think there's a couple things to get it up front is I'm sure that you say this all the time and I'm sure a lot of people hear this, but it really needs to sink in is you need to make the process about the client and not necessarily about you. And now are there things that I don't buy it. When people are allowed to say that we're not the expert, that they're the expert on them. I don't totally buy that because it's like, well, we kind of are the expert. But that being said, we can't come at it from like a one up type position where we don't listen to people. I think the most important thing is in your intake process to have something that allows you to understand what's really important to that person. So one of the things that we have on our intake form that we've used many times before is a scale. What are these? What's important to you? Is sweating during a workout important to you? Is, you know, feeling like you got your butt kicked super hard, is gaining muscle, losing fat, and really dialing in what's important to the person. So that way you can speak to how your programming is going to help them accomplish those things that, that they want that is important to them. And then from there it's continual measurements and check ins. I think one of the things that we made mistakes with in the past was not having enough data for people to, from different perspectives to see whether or not they're making progress. And that's super important because people, while they might be coming to your gym or working with you and enjoying it and liking you and things like that, you know, people are paying for an outcome and if you're not providing that for them, they're gonna have a hard Time with buy in or if you can't help them understand the process and how long things might take, it's tough. So having multiple measures to show progress. So maybe it's moving better, maybe it's moving more weight, maybe it's body weight, maybe it's measurements, maybe it's. If it's important to them, the scale, it depends on the person. And to have multiple measurements that allow people to see where they might be progressing while also understanding what's really important to them, I think is really how you keep that buy in. Start and keep that buy in.

And I would say an ad, and I'm curious what your thoughts are, is that there are times where we need to sometimes shift the perspective of our client, but making sure that we are communicating. For example, you might have a client that is super obsessed with the scale. But then if you can dig a little bit deeper and find out why they're obsessed with the scale, what's causing that and what's the root, the root desire, then you might be able to shift their perspective to get a, to move away from that goal. But maybe they feel better in their clothes or they have more energy to play with their kids or they can sleep better. Sure.

And it's finding out what those things are connected to. So it's like you mentioned, what are the actual whys for the weight loss, for the energy for those things. And then showing people that there's a path to get there, I think is it. And also, you know, having some level of like an escalating belt type system, people like to feel competent, people feel like they want to grow. And you know, one of the things that we have at our gym is our strength standards. And people feel super accomplished when they get to a strength standard. We also have base things that people need to do before they get to the next level. And when people feel as though they have those things to accomplish and can move up, not only does it make it easier for you to write programs because it's like, well, if they haven't passed the strength, the strength standards yet, then these other things aren't on their program yet. So it makes it simpler for you, it makes the process simpler, but then it also, it gives them something to look forward to and something to accomplish and people want to be able to climb the mountains, so to say, and know that there's a direction for them.

So great. So I'd love to circle back to, you know, we've talked a lot about programming. I'd love to circle back to, you know, For a new trainer, beginning trainer. I'm going to ask you a two part question. So the first one. Okay, the first part of the question is how do you start to build out a program? Like, how do, if you have a client, what are some of the fundamentals that you work through to build out programming? And then the second part of the question is, what do you think causes the struggle for people to create programs?

Okay, the first part of the question is having is not starting from scratch. So the first thing that I would do if I was a new trainer is I would go learn some kind of programming system. It could be ours, it could be Mike Boyle's, it could be somebody's. Don't try to make it up because there are people that are already doing it and they're doing it really well. So go steal their stuff. And then from there, as you start to gain experience and you start to see what works for you, you learn more. You see what you agree with, you see what you disagree with, you can start to take that system and make it more of your own. But I think the first thing is think about who you work with and who already out there has a system that works for people like who you're working with and then steal it and use it and learn what it is. I think we have to, if we don't have direct apprenticeships, we have to apprentice ourselves to processes in some way so that we can learn, so we can understand how to make those decisions and we have a place to start. Because if we. I didn't do that, I can tell you from experience that that is not what I did. And it made things really, really hard for me because I had to build it all from scratch. And that took a lot, a lot of time, a lot of effort and a lot of wasted energy. So I would say new trainers, go attach yourself to someone and learn what they do. And then just do that and see how it works. Because the reality is, is I don't mean this to sound like a jerk when it sounds. You just don't know enough to make those decisions yet. So go learn enough to make those decisions from somebody that already to do it. The second part to that question, what keeps people from doing it? I think people are uncertain about whether or not it's really going to work. And I think that that holds them up and it makes them procrastinate because they're like, well, I don't want to put this down on paper because I'm not even sure if it's going to work. Anyway, it's like I've been writing programs for Jesus, almost 20 years. I'm never 100% sure that something's going to work. It's the plan that gets you to the next plan. So if you have something down on paper, you actually have something to evaluate about how it's working or not working, and then you can make adjustments. But if you don't have that down, it's much more difficult to make decisions down the road. So the thing I think that helps is letting go of that need to feel like there's certainty, because there isn't certainty. You don't know. It's just a plan that gets you to the next plan.

So true. And so. It's so true. So good. And so as you are working with the client for a long time, right. Do you. How do you. Let's say you're working with a client for a year. How do you change up their program so that you're keeping them engaged? And do you ever let go of the program or do you always have it?

What do you mean by let go of the program?

Meaning, like, have you ever had times where you're worked with someone for so long that you. You don't write it down?

Oh, no, no, I. So working for somebody for so long is really keeping them involved in the process. And, you know, for us, we have a system called end of phase and end of block. So blocks are four programs and phases are one program. At the end of each phase, we talk with our clients, how do things go? We make sure that we're still in line with the goals that they had and that we're making progress toward them. And then at the end of the day, the block, we look back on what happened? Did we move closer to those goals? We set new goals that extend out forward. And then we have a system of checking in on them all the time. So it's a process of involving the client in the conversation and then having a system that allows them to project themselves forward into the future and then allows you to work backward with them to write the program that's going to take them there. So I think the magic is in all of that. If you can condense it down to one thing is communication.

Yeah, I think, and I think too, you hit something. It's really important that I want to reiterate it too, is that if you're not programming, sometimes there's. It could be this sense of not feeling competent, like, oh, what if I can't get this person the goal? But what I Like to just remember is that. Or to remind people is that we need the data in order to decide. Because if they're not getting to the goal, then that problem is still there or that challenge is still there, whether you talk about it or don't.

Right.

So you either address it and you learn from it. Get the lessons that you need or the success that you want.

Sure.

And that's how you're going to continue to hold on to this client.

Yeah. And I think, too, there's so many parts of people's lives where they're not involved in the process of what they're doing and having that. Even though we have three different archetypes of clients that we've defined for people that come to our gym, we have what people, why people and how people. What people just want to be told what to do. Why people need a very clear explanation before they'll commit to doing what you want to do and how people are more concerned with the relationship before all else. But a lot of people come in as what people, and they just want to know. But as they gain context and they gain experience, they start to get interested and they see in context that they can do XYZ or they learn about things at your gym, and then they start to have a richer thought process about what they'd like to do and how they'd like to accomplish it. And I think that plays a big role in giving people the ability to express that. For example, we have big tractor tires at our gym. Honestly, Chris and I want to get rid of them because it's like they just take up so much space, but they're. They're this, like this dragon for people sometimes, especially women, they come in and inevitably one woman will see another woman flipping that tire, and they're like, she just flipped. I'd like to flip the tire, too. So it's sometimes gaining context about what's possible and then having the structure to be able to continually have conversations that plan around what people see themselves doing. And I think if you have that, it makes your program design much easier. And then there's just the nuts and bolts of the things that you're going to steal from other people until you have your system. And that's the what exercises? How do you make decisions about those exercises? Where does it all fit in a weekly, monthly, and yearly schedule? And that's stuff that honestly just goes steal first. Don't try to make it up on your own.

I love that. What are some of the exercises that you would say you need to Steal in order and put them in your program exercises or pillars or however you.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's any more complicated than what we've all taken from Dan John. People need to hinge, they need to squat, they need to push, they need to pull, they need to carry, and they need to role and do everything else. And I think that that's really it, and it's just understanding at what level of those things that a certain client might be. So you need a way to evaluate that. And we have. At our gym, we have an onboarding system that moves people through our progressions and regressions. And so it helps us find the perfect level for each person, for each. Each one of those movements. And that's how we individualize our programs.

I love that. And so, you know, one of the things, too, that you said is that you tend. You're always communicating with your client, and then you reset goals, especially after these blocks. Right. So I'm curious, what are some of the things that you do for the clients that perhaps don't necessarily have a goal, but they want to maintain? How are some of the ways that you measure progress in that way? And how do you program for them.

When you say that they don't have, like, a goal, but they want to maintain? When. What do you mean when you say that?

When I say maintain, I mean that they want to continue working out so that they still feel good and they want to continue to move and eat well. But they don't necessarily have benchmarks. They just know that if they don't come see you, they're going to stop working out well.

And I think, you know what, for folks like that, it's. It's being okay with the fact that they just want to come train. And I think as. As coaches, sometimes we try to interject our own values. And I've been guilty of this in the past of saying, like, well, no, we have to do this and we have to have this, and we want to have to. It's like they just want to show up and train because they like being there. And so we let people do that and we progress their programs and difficulty, and we try to find things that might be interesting to them to do from an exercise standpoint, from a loading standpoint, from all those kind of things, and we just let people be. And then eventually sometimes the spark hits them. And sometimes it's just like, I want a cool environment to go to when I'm not working, and I want to work out, and I enjoy this and we just leave it be at that.

I love that. Now, this is something you haven't said yet here, but I've heard you say it before, is that you, you know, also one of the things to consider when we're, when we're talking about programming is that sometimes we think that we are programming because the client's bored. When then the truth of the matter is that the trainer is just bored.

Mm.

And it's not, you know, we have to make sure that we're checking in with, you know, realistically, are, is it that you're bored or that the client's bored?

Yeah, and that's. It's true because sometimes we put, I think it stems from a certain hammer and nail syndrome that we have as coaches and trainers where we have to look for a problem and we have to, we have to try to solve it. And there's not always a problem. And so we have to. If you have the structures in place that we were talking about. So if you, if you steal somebody else's programming system, if you have shrink standards, if you have these goal setting systems, if you have the ability to communicate with your clients consistently like that, those things kind of go away. Because you don't need to make changes just to make changes because you have all of this information and these structures that allow you to make the changes when they need to be made. That sounds like a lot. And it's taken us years to develop all that stuff. And so that's why I don't want to overwhelm people when I talk about that. And that's why I tell people to simply just, just go steal something from somebody else. Seriously. It's, it's the best way to start. It's, it's how everyone starts. That's how everyone. Not, however, in some way, everyone starts that way. And it's, it's, it's best, I think, to start that way. It's just, you got to start with a, with something on your slate. Don't try to start with a clean one.

Well, and for the, you know, I've said it to people before too, is that no one's reinventing this, reinventing the wheel. Like we're, we're not trying to reinvent how, you know, squat biomechanics, like, sure, squat as a squat. Right. It's, it's, you can't reinvent that. But I feel like there's this urge to cut through the noise.

Oh, well, everybody wants to be unique and they want to be the one with the, the cool exercise or something like that. And you know, people, people show up for relationships and results and that's why people come to see you. So if you can do those two things, you can have the blandest programming in the world. But if you're doing those two things, you'll always have clients.

So true. Now, in your programming specifically, like when you're going through, you know, a block, say, you know, do you have, you know, how, at what level do you have repetition? And what I mean by that is your repetition of the exact same 30 to 45 minute workout. How many times do you have one person do the same thing over and over again?

Well, it depends on the client and how many days per week that they're training with us. You know, if somebody's incredibly new, I mean they might do the same exact thing twice per week. You know, and sometimes I've had, in the past, you know, I've had clients that I've done the same thing four days per week. But as it stands at our gym right now, once per week. And then, you know, we just balance things out where one day per week the main lifts are hinge and push. So like a deadlift and a bench press. And then the other day of the week the main lifts are a squat and a pull. And then our assistance work or whatever would be, would be the opposite. So if we're, if we're deadlifting and bench pressing, our assistance work would be some kind of single leg squat type work and some kind of pull work. And we just balance it out throughout the week like that. So typically it's, it's once per week. Now if someone's training three days per week and they're just doing, they only have two workouts on their program. So like they'll do one workout twice one week and then the next week they'll do the other workout twice and they'll progress that way for four to six weeks. Great.

Now you have mentioned too in here that you've been programming for people for 20 years. So you've been in this industry for at least 20 plus years. What are some of the things that you have done to keep, you know, to stay cutting edge and also, you know, stay interested and not be bored?

Yeah, well, I think for clarification, I started writing programs for people when I was in high school. So that's, that's where the 20, 20 years starts, where I would like write all of my friends training programs when we started. Honestly, it's seeking new problems to solve and seeking new challenges. So you know, at first it was powerlifting because I started out as, as a powerlifter. That's what really got me into it. That and training to be, to be stronger for football. So it's just, for me it's been a progression of different problems to solve. So it was started with that, training athletes, training gen pop folks, moving on to things like law enforcement and now it's training hunters, training mountain hunters to go and do extreme things with their body to be able to survive on the mountain and also be successful. So I think it's a constant evolution of trying to level up your skills and solve bigger problems and really just staying in tune with what actually interests you. Because I think a lot of times we try to force ourselves into a hole of like this is what I should be doing instead of just paying attention to what actually interests us.

I love that. What caused you to leave or move away from powerlifting?

I was just done with it. I, for me personally, I did everything that I wanted to do. So I deadlifted £615. I squatted in the five hundreds, I benched into four hundreds. And it's like, you know, for me to continue to progress, I either needed to put on an unhealthy amount of weight or honestly I probably needed to start taking steroids. And I wasn't willing to do either of those things. So I was just done. And I didn't want to beat my body up anymore. So that's why I got away from powerlifting. And it was one of those things where a couple years after I still trained some powerlifters, but I just wasn't passionate about it anymore because I wasn't involved with it.

Let's see. Did you ever combat injuries?

Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I hurt my shoulder, I've hurt my hip. I had, I had the, from playing college football and also powerlifting, I had, I had just compounding injuries from the time I was little boy until I was in my mid to late twenties.

So do you still have to deal with that now?

No, I train in a completely different way and I think that that's, that's definitely helped. I mean one of the things that helped a ton is actually developing my aerobic system. And it's just been super, super helpful for the health of my body. And you know, I just don't, I don't force myself into movements that I shouldn't be doing anymore. I shouldn't really squat heavy. I'm not built for it. I don't have the raw materials that I need to be Putting weight on myself like I did when I was younger. And I'm just. I'm not silly about that anymore. I just don't do it.

Experience. Time and experience.

It's just. And it's nice to feel good. I. It's used to be, you know, feel like there's this badge of honor to go in and beat the hell out of yourself and then feel sore afterwards. And it's just like, I got stuff to do. I don't have time for that. I want to feel good. So.

Yeah, no, that's undervalued. I feel like it's undervalued, especially for people that are, you know, at the beginning.

Sure. Yeah. You think that's boy. It's also a marker of progress or accomplishment for people. So if you wake up the next day and you feel sore, it's like, oh, it must have worked. And, you know, folks just don't have the context to say, like, that's not the best marker of progress, you know, so. But it's a physical sensation, so it's easy to latch onto.

So now strength faction has changed since I have been in there. But I'm curious, you know, what are some of the. From the people that you constantly work with and trainers specifically, or physical therapists too, specifically. What are some of the things that continuously come up for your people when they're putting together their programs or progressing programs or. Or, you know, adding regressions in there? What are some of the things that keep coming up consistently that you see?

Well, programming as a whole. You know, you said earlier that it's one of the biggest problems that you hear about. It's the biggest problem that we hear about. It just. It seems like this big maze or this big beast that people don't know how to. To get around. And it's. It's. I think people see it as much more complex than it really, really is. And I think that that's a. That's a big issue for people because it can be really, really simple for us. Mostly what we see is people don't know how to onboard people into their first program and really gather the information that they need to make decisions about that first program. And then it's. The stuff that you and I talked about earlier is what do you do when you've had a client for four years? How do you continue to train them? And those are the things. And it's really, quite honestly the stuff that we talked about earlier is do you have a way to find out what's important to a person Evaluate how they're moving and make decisions about the right exercises, and then just have a way to check in with them and consistently progress them.

And I also think too, that we're in the information overload era, which is a blessing and also a curse. Like everything, right, for sure. We're inundated with access to information that, listen, we did not have even when I was starting. That's only, you know, 10, seven years ago where you had to wait for certifications like nobody was going to. Instagram did not exist in the way that it does today. Right?

Absolutely.

So I'm, you know, I'm curious, how do you recommend people shift and navigate that experience of consuming but then also implementing?

I think as you consume, you need to do and try. And that's one of the things that we preach in Strength Faction is experiential learning. So one of the things that we do for all of our Strength Faction members, like you mentioned, is they get a program. And the purpose for that is twofold. And the first is the one that you and I had already talked about is you don't have to think about it. Here's a really good program, and you can take all that thought off your plate and you can focus on your clients. But the second reason for that is as you're learning about our program design, you get to experience it from the inside out and say, feel it from the client level, learn about it intellectually, and then also go and play with the principles and the things that we're teaching and use it to write your programs. So I think it's rather than trying to consume so much and consume, consume, consume, it's immersing yourself in maybe one, maybe two things for a little while and using them and trying to understand them at the deepest level as you possibly can, rather than having shiny object syndrome and trying to jump around to different things or just trying to keep up with the Joneses, because everybody else is trying to do all this stuff and really these books and do all these things. And, you know, it comes down to knowing isn't valuable if you're not doing anything with it. And it's just if you're, if you're reading a book just so you can say, oh, I read that book too. Like, that doesn't mean anything. So I think the biggest thing that you can do is apply as you're learning and experiment and see what happens in real time as you're taking in that information.

I love that. Now I'm curious, too, out of, you know, how do you how do you navigate and read, or read is not the right word, but assess is the right word. Assess the data of what happens with the program. Right. And what I mean by that is, you know, let's say a client, because they're going to get a result whether it's the one they want or the one they didn't want. Right. How can you, as a trainer, assess what to do? Like, is it something. How do you know if it's, you know, you need to push the client a little harder? Maybe the program's too sophisticated. Maybe you need to regress. Like, what are some of the ways that you determine what to do next when you get the data?

Yeah. So, you know, first of all, we having things like string standards, which have they progressed through that? And if they haven't made steps towards the objective things like that, then what's the point progressing? And if they have, then we have a system set up of knowing where to go next. We also, you know, we use an rp, the RPE scale, and that helps us determine how much effort the client needs to expend in a certain exercise and the total roll, total overall rating of perceived exertion for a session. So we have that information. Then there are objective measurements based on, you know, what they want to do. Are they. Are we taking some kind of circumference measurements? Are we measuring fat loss in a certain way? Are we doing any of these other things? And we can take all that information and use it to make decisions about. Okay, so is this person. Is this person doing everything that they can with us? Is the program right, Whatever it is? Because the reality is the program is only. It's important and we need to understand it and we need to do it well. But it's only one piece of the puzzle of transformation, and it's a piece that we have responsibility over to do well. But, you know, there's so many other things that people have to do because, you know, if you're training somebody three days a week, they're with you for what, three hours a week? And there's so much outside of that that you don't have control over. So that's where you can ask questions. And that's why we have certain things set up outside of the gym. Like, are you drinking seven glasses of water a day? Are you. Are you getting seven hours of sleep? Are you getting at least 7,000 steps in? And that stuff that we borrowed from Strength Matters, and it's like, so if you're not doing these basic things, if you're not coming in and training two to three days per week hard, then what changes do we really need to make? We need to hit these markers first and then we can start to think about it. So really it comes down to, are we doing these objective things? Did we meet these standards? Where are we at on these kind of measurements? Did we get stronger? Did we get leaner? Did we do the things that we want to do? And then that way we know, do we really need to make a change? So, and then from the interpersonal standpoint, you know, you're in the session with people. I mean, if you're training in person right now, you know how hard somebody's working, and if they're not doing the things they need to do, then that's a conversation to have, you know.

Now, I love that you bring this in because you said if you're training in person. So it leads me to this question. What are some of the ways that you, what are some of the things that you've had to change in your programming and in, in your client experience since moving primarily online? Like, what are some of the big differences that you think trainers need to really hone in on as they move to the virtual scene?

I mean, I think clarity of what people, what things mean. So all the things that would just be implied or that you communicate in person, you need to do that in either writing or in video. So people really have a good understanding of what they're doing and, and why they're doing it and how to do it. I think two, which probably isn't being said well enough is really qualify who you're working with when you're going online. And rather than just taking on. And I know it's tough because we all have to ring the cash register and we all have to eat. And I get that. And I can say this from a point of luxury that a lot of people don't have because of the position that I'm in my career. But when it comes to that, man, it's like, if you know that you need to work with people that have some experience because you don't have all the other systems to help somebody that's brand new with fitness and do that online, then work with somebody that's experienced, take on the clients that you know that you can help the best, and don't just take on anybody because it's going to end up in a place where they don't feel like they're getting what they need or there's some level of failure and it's Just bad for everybody. So I think really niching down, understanding who you help and understanding who you can help before you start to move your business online is super important. And from there it's, you know, we're both in person and online right now at the gym, because we're open at our gym. And you know, one of the things that we did is we just got really flexible with what people have access to. And like I said earlier, having that program design system that you're going to steal, we have a great one called Home Fitness Program Design Made Easy. So that you can just take that and apply principles to different situations where it's like, there's always going to be a hinge, there's going to be a squat, there's going to be a push, there's going to be a pull. What do you have access to at home? Okay, well then it's that simple. And I think it's a combination of those things that are going to make people successful when they're training people virtually.

And I think for me, I'll just share too that the hardest thing that I had to really get used to was communicating my cues verbally instead of tactfully.

Sure. Yeah.

That's a skill. Because you can say, you know, it's much easier if a client allows you to just touch them in places of like here.

You need to.

Yes. Versus trying to communicate it both from, you know, personality wise people sometimes aren't audio learners.

Yeah. And it is trying to make that coaching environment as rich as possible for your clients. So, you know, when you're doing your videos, there's the solid demonstration, there's the demonstration of what not to do, there's where should you feel what and how do you do it? And you have to build that rich environment both in person and online.

So good. Yeah, so good. I'll also say too that there's been a shift in terms of making sure that you're communicating the value of online because it's still your time.

Sure.

A lot.

Yeah.

A lot of trainers will come into the online space and think that it needs to be cheaper, just not the case. Your time, you're never going to get back.

Yep, that's. I mean, that was one of the first things that we made sure that we told all the string faction members that as Covid hit in March and everybody started going online and they want to start discounting, we're like, no way, man. Like, it is still your time, it is still your effort, it is still valuable. And quite honestly, I mean, no I know there's different options now but like at that point it was like, well this is their option anyway. Like you're providing a huge gigantic value to their life because quite honestly you're going to help keep them from going insane. And you know, and as it stands now, it's like you're. I think honestly a lot of times it takes more effort to train people online even if you're just doing like a program design system and check ins and it does to train people in person because you have to gather information a different way. It's just, it's a difficult process. So I don't think it's anything that should be discounted unless you're doing some kind of like mass produced program that you just sell thing. That's a totally different thing. But if you're doing individualized coaching online, it should not be discounted.

Absolutely. I mean fitness, fitness is changing and whether it's. And that's a good thing and it's always going to be changing. I mean I can think about what it was like 10 years ago, which, you know, it's always changing and it's important that we're always staying, staying current.

Yeah, for sure. It's, it's because people are changing and culture's changing and society is going to change and it's, we're a small slither of that and, and keeping your thumb on like the zeitgeist of what's going on is only going to help you adapt.

So what are some of the trends that you, for that you're foreseeing for 2021 man.

I think that the hybrid stuff's still going to be big. I think we're going to see boutique gyms, it's small group personal training and those kind of gyms start to thrive. I think they're going to do really well because people can control who they're around right now because people are still bugged out by Covid, you know, so anything where an environment can be in control to the amount of people that you're exposed to I think is going to be something that's, that's going to do really, really well. I think that quite honestly, it sucks to say this, but I think a lot of people are going to fail this year and I think it's important to listen to some of the messages that you're saying and that we've talked about today about finding out who you really serve, being able to be adaptable and doing all of those kind of things because the people that don't they're not going to make it because it's going to be tough this year. It's going to be tougher than it usually is.

Yeah, it does suck to say, but I, you know, I agree. And I also think, too, that, you know, you're going to have always more people enter the market space, and it's going to be really important that you are confident. And I always say that confidence comes from competence, and competence comes from just taking messy action consistently and learning, growing. And so I think that, you know, there. You know, you'll. We'll see more failures because we'll see more people come to the market space without being open.

Yeah.

Yeah. And without growing.

Yeah. And I mean, you know, it's a time to. It's a time to really make sure you seek out mentorship because this is a time where experience is even more valuable than it has been in the past, because it's just the. The. The. The environment is harsher. It just is. It's the reality. And it's. It's. And I don't know that it's like. It's not something that I necessarily think. Sucks to say. It's just like you have to decide, really, whether or not you want to do this, and if you do, then you need to listen to people like you and like me and what we're telling you.

Yeah, agreed. And I'm gonna. I wanna be mindful of your time, so I'll make, you know, I'll make sure that I won't pivot too much. But I'm curious, too, just out of your perspective, because we're talking a little bit now about positioning ourself in the market space. I feel like I keep talking to people who want to charge. You know, I'm a trainer. There's so much noise. I'm gonna charge a dollar. And I'm exaggerating. I'm exaggerating. But, you know, I'm constantly talking about content being a. That what you are solving a $10,000 problem. Don't forget that. That, you know, what's easy to you is not what's easy to people that are faced with, you know. You know, I feel like Covid's taught us more so than ever that we need to prioritize our health.

Yep.

You know, so how are you teaching people to remember to charge their worth and their value?

Well, I think it's. First of all, the foundational things that we've talked about is making them feel as though they can. That they have the skills that they have the systems that they have, what they need to be able to solve the problem so that they can stand there and say, yes, I'm worth this. So I think that is a foundational thing. You know, the second part of that is for people to understand that people evaluate things based on how much they cost and the perceived value. So, for example, a few years ago. Oh, geez. More than a few, five or six years ago, I was teaching a course in Chicago at a gym, and one of the people in attendance was a client of the gym. And she. I have a talk that I used to do called the Art of Coaching, which is just essentially, you know, the softer skills systems of what we do at my gym. And she was like, you know, I think you'd be a really good corporate trainer to come in and do some leadership training and stuff. And, you know, I'd like to try to get you set up with my company and blah, blah, and all that stuff. And, you know, we had some meetings after that and we got on. Actually we got on Zoom and we had some chats and she was walking me through the process and she was like, if you don't come in at this price for this many hours, so for an afternoon, she's like, no one's even going to look at you because they're going to say, why are you that cheap? It's not even worth hiring this guy. This is, you know, so to have that level of. To have that understanding that people evaluate things that way, they don't just look at, like, price and get scared. They also look at price and say, well, is this valuable enough? And I also learned that from direct, directly in our industry when I was doing some in home manual therapy and training around Greenwich, Connecticut and Westchester County, New York. And when I was there, you know, my friend that was getting me set up, she's like, look, if you don't say this much around this much, they're not even going to pay attention to you. And the numbers that she told me at that point in my career, they like, made my heart jump into my stomach. Like, I can't ask people for this much money. But then you do it. And they're like, okay, all right, okay, cool. So I think it's just getting over that hump of actually asking for that money. And some people, you know, if you have people kicking tires, then a lot of times there's two things to think about. Do you need to work on your sales skills and how you value stack what you sell, or is this actually the right client for You. And sometimes it's just if they're, they might not have the money or they just might not see the value in what you do enough, and you might just need to work with different people than that person.

It was great. I love that. I love that. And I think about my own behaviors. Right. You know, if someone came to me and said, you know, I'm gonna build you a seven figure business for $5, I'd be like, what are you talking about? That's funny. Yeah, you're not right. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. You will find yourself saying things like, oh, you know. Yeah, I just. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Right. Or yourself asking like, well, that person's charging 10 times that, so what are you not teaching?

Yeah, yeah. And you can't be the best and be the cheapest at the same time. People, people will. If it seems out of sync for people, they, they won't buy.

Exactly. And which is going to be our last question is that if you cannot, you know, generate revenue enough to reinvest in yourself to get smarter, to start, you know, continue your education, grow your business, then you're not going to be able, then you won't have a business.

Right? Yeah, yeah.

So my last question was, you know, what are some of the, you know, what are some of your favorite edge, you know, scientific education resources to help sharpen the saw?

Okay, so one that I've really dove into recently. What is Building the Elite by Craig Weller? And I can't think of the other guy's name, but it's a book about training special operations folks, which is part of, you know, my job with the tactical folks that we work with. But it also has a lot of resources for just developing aerobic, developing the aerobic system and programming for it, for understanding the mental side of training and all the things. And they have a lot of really, really good information, that book. So I really love that. I've been on a big kick for energy that energy systems lend towards things for the past few years. And Joel Jamison's book, Ultimate Conditioning for mma, I think that's what it's called. But either way, that book's I don't know how many years old now, and it's still incredible. I love that. I mean, anything Dan John's written is worth reading. And one of my mentors, Bill Hartman, who goes a little bit into the deeper aspect of things, but I always love learning from Bill. And of course, I'd be remiss if I didn't vote for myself and say I think Strength Faction is worth the investment for being a well rounded, well rounded coach that understands how to navigate the industry.

Yeah, I love that and I'll say too from, you know, for me and I share this with you, but I, you know, when Todd says steal someone's programming, I use their programming templates for years. Years. Like if you looked at my Excel spreadsheets now, they are still look similar.

That's awesome. I'm happy to hear that.

So I used it for years and honestly that's what having that template is exactly what helped me, you know, reduce my time. So many people think that programming is going to take hours, but literally it takes 10 minutes. Plug and play.

Yep. It shouldn't. I mean we have a, one of our, one of our tests, one of our things that we do with folks when they first start our program design curriculum and Strength Faction is can you write a program in six minutes? Because we've run into that situation. It's like, oh well, we could actually do this because our systems were tight enough for us to make that decision.

Yeah. So good. I love that. Okay. And so of course I'm going to link up all the stuff that we talked about in the show notes. But for anyone that wants to learn more about you, where should I send them?

Yeah, I mean, you know, for coaches that are interested in Strength Faction, you know, you can go to our website. We have a bunch of free resources there that are awesome that you can get and our handle is Strength Faction on Instagram. And if you have any questions, my personal email is toddyondstrengthperformance.com Amazing.

Love that. So, Todd, thanks so much for hanging out with me today. I appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it.

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