How we Habit Stack for Ourselves and for our Clients with Amy Lang

You're listening to the PT Proffit podcast, episode number 309. Today we're delving into how we have it stacked for ourselves and for our.

Clients with guest Amy Lang. Are you ready?

Let's get started. Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance and movement, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast. Welcome back to the PT Profit Podcast.

My name is Chris.

I'm going to give you the intro today.

Now, for this episode, Beverly is hosting.

An engaging session exploring Amy's transition from high tech to health and fitness and.

Her innovative approach to health coaching.

We'll uncover insights from Amy's book Thoughts.

Are Habits Too and discuss how her.

Techniques in emotional regulation and growth mindset.

Are reshaping the way we think about.

Dieting and holistic health. Get ready for a transformative conversation on.

Habit stacking with Amy Lang.

What's up, Amy? Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. How are you?

I'm good. How are you?

I'm doing so well. I'm so excited to dive in today. I feel like I have a best selling author on the show today and so I'm super excited to dive into your book and all the things that you do. It's going to be just such a great episode. So thank you for joining us.

Well, thank you so much for having me. Truly, I love it.

For those of you who have not been introduced to your work, can you please share with us a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there?

You want the short version or the long one?

You give me whatever version you want to give me.

Oh. So I am a master health coach. I owned Pacific Heights Health Club in San Francisco for 15 plus years. So from 2004 until 2019, it closed right before the pandemic hit.

Okay, before we go any further, I must have Pacific Heights. I must have ran into you at some point because I lived in Bay and Polk.

Oh, yeah, that's pretty close. Pretty close, yes.

But I was always in Black Heights. I was always in Black Heights. Anyway, sorry. Okay, keep going. So then right before the pandemic, you closed that space.

Got it. Yeah. And so before that, I actually worked in high tech and my story has been that in tech, it's you're working with all these engineers who are like building cool product and then looking for a problem to solve. And I remember thinking, no, the world has real problems. Let's focus our energy on that. And health had always health care. Health had always been a passion for me. So moving over to actually owning a health club made perfect sense. So from there I became a personal, certified personal trainer, nutrition coach, all those kinds of things. And I was watching members, I mean we probably thousands of members over 15 plus years. And I really was paying attention to what worked and what didn't work when it came to people creating healthy lifestyles. And really that's, that got me into the coaching world because it was, it wasn't just, oh, I signed up a new member, it's done. A health club membership is about a relationship and getting folks to stay and to keep using it. And I felt like I didn't have the ambivalence of signing up a new member and not caring about whether or not they came back. So through coaching I was able to increase retention. People got the results they were looking for. We had a wonderful community in addition to that. That really made closing it a hard decision. But since then, I mean the timing couldn't have been more perfect really. I shifted to online coaching. So I do health coaching and especially during the pandemic, I had to really hone my skills on like sleep, stress and recovery too because the stress level, level at that point was through the roof. So yeah, I ended up writing the book because I wanted to reach that many more people. And I understand that some people do well with videos, some do well with audio. Right. Some people want to read a book. So I'm like, let me, let me get this message out to more as many people as I know how to do.

Yeah, that's great. So can you. I have a couple of, of questions though, because I'm curious about this. A lot of my clients, my accelerator clients have been kind of going through this is is. You said that your clients were seeing a lot of results and that they were doing very, they were doing well. What would you attribute your health coaching comp, like what components about your health coach coaching would you contribute to the success of the client? Why were they getting better results? And how do you recommend people use coaching to help their clients get better results?

Well, I think so. One of the things we were doing, I mean I was doing Facebook ads back in like 2015, 2016. So I was kind of early to the game of Facebook ads. And it was video, it was it was me on camera and I was attracting people who wanted coaching as opposed to members who were joining just because they. It was the do it yourself mode. So I think I was getting a higher percentage of people who were raising their hands saying I want help. And then I sat down with each new member for an hour and a half. So part of the challenge that I usually use to get them in the doors really covered that cost. I, you know, I know you talk about like self liquidating offers and things like that. I will tell you back in like 2016, I remember running an ad. It was two weeks before the start of the program. I spent $800. I signed up 25 small group training clients. I made 8,000 on the front end. I mean I wouldn't be able to repeat that now. Right. I understand that Facebook advertising is much more expensive. It's a much more crowded field. But that's what I was able to do then. And when they actually then went through the challenge, then I had to get them past the six week mark to do six months a year, whatever that is. And there we were talking about anywhere.

From.

Like an, a prepaid annual for two people. I remember having someone like, okay, 15 grand, let's do it. So it's definitely possible. I think as far as what helped them is so I sat down with them one on one and we really, we went through their health history. I really spent a lot of time helping them sort of nail what their why was. Like coming up with a really compelling why, getting from their head to their heart and lining it up with their values, what was important in their life, how it fit in. So they always could go back to that context of why they were doing what they were doing.

Okay, great. And then is that how they, is that what you use to help people when things got hard? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, so I think part of the beauty of training too is, is you develop a relationship with the person and you know, you make it as easy as possible for people to get scheduled so that they, they can block it off their calendar. So how do you help them figure out this is like a non negotiable. I already got it on my calendar. Now I'm going to schedule around it as opposed to, okay, I'll schedule it later. And then it becomes like the first thing to go and doesn't happen. So we did everything. I really encourage folks to like get into that. You. I talk about habits all the time. Get into a routine, pick two or three days a week where you're going to do it and same time, they, you know, like, have the trainer be the one changing up what's happening during that session, but that they're showing it, they don't have to think about it, oh, when was it again? I don't want them to have to remember it. I want it to be as automatic as possible.

Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned habits. I'm super pumped to get into it. Tell us about your book. How did you create your book? Like, what. What brought on the book?

Oh, so the book is titled thoughts or habits 2. Master your triggers, free yourself from diet culture, and rediscover joyful eating. And what I really wanted to unpack was how many of our thoughts serve us and which ones don't, and being able to uncover and identify the ones that don't and reframe them so that they do. That's part of it. And then when I talk about, like, mastering your triggers, there's a lot around, like, emotional regulation, learning how to process your emotions, and that is a skill. So I think one of the things I really want folks to hear is that most of the things that I'm talking about here are skills that we can learn, and through practice and experience, we can get better. So it's that growth mindset idea. And if you talk about, like, the beginner's mindset, anything that you're trying the first time, if you're trying to develop a healthy habit that you don't have, let's say it's to drink more water and you don't end up doing it. It's that whole ability to give yourself permission to fail, too. If a baby's learning how to walk, we don't say, you know, the first time they fall. What's wrong with you? We would never do that. It's always encouraging. When you think about, like, your favorite teacher, a mentor, your favorite boss, what did they do? They instilled that sense of, like, I believe in you, and I believe you can do it, and we encourage folks. And so the book itself was really, there's a few things. Right. I talked about just wanting to spread the message. I think the other thing was in response to the intuitive eating movement. So I went through the whole certification program to become an intuitive eating counselor cast with flying colors. I could promote myself as that, but I won't because I fundamentally disagree with two key things that they talk about. The first, their first principle is to reject the diet mentality, which I'm all for letting go of diets. But the second sentence in their principle number one, and if you go to their website, you'll see it. If you read their book, you'll see it. It's to get angry at diet culture. And if you're getting angry at this thing, you're giving your power away. You're giving your power away. So I remember a post that they had on social media where they said that the scale was a tool of oppression. I'm like, it's a scale. I like the, the social media posts that talk about like the scale is just, you know, a measure of your, of the gravit. Gravitational pull, something right. Of your body. It's me, right? It's your weight, the fat. So. Meaning it's just a fact.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. And so that was the first thing. And then the second thing was they really had an issue with this concept of a healthy weight. They're like, there's no such thing as a healthy weight. I, I had one on one calls with one of the co founders, Evelyn Tribally, and I said, well, okay, I understand healthy weight, especially as it relates to what a normal or healthy BMI has a lot of issues associated with it. Okay, there's bias there, all that good stuff, but there's still like a healthy weight. So how about if I say optimal weight, right? Optimized for your body, your body type, your activity, we want to optimize it for the things you want to do. And she said, well, that implies that there's a suboptimal weight. And I was like, yes, there's a sub. Yes, there is. Like if you're 5 foot 8 and you weigh 75 pounds because you have anorexia, that's not an optimal weight. If you're 5 foot 8 and you weigh 500 pounds, that's not an optimal weight. Your body wasn't designed to carry all that. Right. Your joints are going to hurt, your back, your knees, your hips, all that stuff. So yeah, so I wrote the book really, because I was like, I. One, I wanted to be able to speak from a place of like, I know what I'm talking about when I say what intuitive eating is and isn't. And two, there's a better way because they're always talking about letting go of intentional weight loss. Like they, if you're doing intuitive eating, there's no intentional weight loss associated with it. And I much prefer the concept of detaching from the outcome. Like you can have that goal and you want to be moving in that direction, creating conditions to make a much more possible. Right. Increase the chances, understanding you don't control the outcome, but doing all the stuff that you can and then like, it's like Steph Curry playing basketball. He can't control the outcome of the game, whether they win or lose, but he can control what he does, right, in terms of what he eats, how much he practices, the sleep, the conditioning, the mindset, all of that stuff he gets to control. And, and he falls in love with the, he fell in love with the process. He loves basketball, the game. He likes winning too, but he loves the game.

Yes.

And so that's kind of when I talk about joyful eating, it's like, let's fall in love with the process that, that we've laid out here. Let's put in place habits that really do nourish our body, that show how much we love ourselves, that we trust ourselves, that we're grateful for what we have.

So you're. I love that. And so I'm just curious, in terms of your process and you the, and bringing back and, and, and thinking about the concepts of joyful eating specifically, are you speaking in the context of all goals or in the weight loss goals specifically?

I am focused specifically on being happy and healthy and health. So I. So weight loss. Yes. I'm looking more at, I call it deep health precision. Nutrition refers to deep health. So I'm talking about not just physical health, but mental and emotional health as well. Because one of the issues I have with dieting is one, I think it's inherently flawed because what, what are the stats? It's like 95% of people who go on a diet to lose weight, and, and so we have to define what diet is.

I was, that was the first question that popped in my mind. How do you specifically define diet? Because if you look at the dictionary, diet is, is the word used to describe one's eating. How they.

Yeah, well, so I think there are two different definitions of diet because I, I remember looking it up. So there's diet, like, you know, we talked about the Mediterranean diet. Those are more about like the things that you eat habitually. And then like how, you know, when people say how healthy is your diet? Or something like that. But then there's diets like, excuse me, diets like programs or plans that are specifically designed for intentional weight loss. So how do people use the ketogenic diet? If they're treating epilepsy, that's one thing. If they're trying to lose weight for an upcoming wedding, for example, that's another thing altogether. They're avoiding carbs. There anything where you're counting Calories or tracking points where there's a, you're basically telling yourself there's this rule, there's a limited number of something, limited number of X that I'm supposed to eat. And so like people who are tracking points, I won't name the program because I tried really hard not to. I'm talking about the concept here. So if you're tracking points, if you find yourself saving points, there's a scarcity that you've created in the process. I only have X number. How am I going to use them? And I actually think like in foods that have a very high calorie count, think alcohol like a martini or ice cream or apple pie, they have a high point value. So now you've actually put all this value on foods and drinks and actually aren't necessarily nourishing. Not, not nourishing in the sense of nutrients for your body. Alcohol is actually toxic for your body. Now. Now social drinking on the other hand, like, you know, there's benefits to socializing. So I kind of want to make sure that I'm, I'm not being super black and white about it, but what.

I heard about your process is specifically we've got, you know, mental, emotional and physical health. So while there are components of your physical health, like alcohol, that doesn't serve your physical bucket, it might actually serve your mental bucket sometimes, or your social or your emotional bucket sometimes. Does it have to? No, I just think it's more about being present to the truth about move your habits.

Yeah, absolutely, Abs, you've got it exactly right. So, so when we talk about the restriction, it's when I only have so many, whether it's calories, points, whatever, I can't eat certain things, then we're triggering this state of scarcity.

Red, yellow, green.

And then you have the deprivation that kicks in. And I mean there's thought suppression research that shows when you tell yourself you can't have something, part of your brain is monitoring for compliance. You're not doing it, are you? I'm checking on you, are you? So you wind up thinking about it more. I think it's ironic that like, so for some programs like the social media feed will be of all these recipes and the point values of the food, the amount, the preoccupation with food is so prevalent and I don't think a preoccupation with food when you're trying to lose weight is helpful. I, I think it, it goes against, we just want to have, have, be free around food. Right. You want to be able to choose when you're going to eat it, how much you're going to eat it, not feeling like you're craving it all the time. So I think that deprivation leads to a lot of cravings if you're not actually nourishing your body. So I have the fundamental five self care habits. I'm sure you'll ask me about that later. And if you don't, I'll bring it up.

Go into it now.

So the fundamental five, it's to drink half your body weight in ounces of water, so it's to stay hydrated. Five servings of fruits and vegetables. So I'm looking for three servings of vegetables to two fruit. Eating all the colors of the rainbow, making sure you're getting green leafy vegetables in. That's not to say that I don't think protein and healthy fats are important, but I'm talking about if you look at the US diet and the things that we're deficient in, it's the plants, the fiber, all the antioxidants and stuff that go with it. Seven to nine hours of restful sleep, 30 minutes of mindful movement and eating until you're comfortably full. So those are foundation. I'm not saying that I think that's enough. I'm saying that's the foundation. So 30 minutes of mindful movement means going for a walk, a 10 minute walk outside, it means taking the stairs, all of that counts. And then I would add in cardio fitness and strength training and flexibility and all that stuff. But I want to get folks moving first and feeling good in their body. It really is about identifying the habits that do serve you and those that don't and recognizing the thoughts that trigger the emotion we have. And thoughts, by the way, I always say, like we want to break it down further so we have thoughts. Like when you see something, you go, oh, that's a chair or that's a scale. And, or maybe you step on the scale and you see a number. That's a fact. We could all look at that number and agree. And then there's an interpretation and it goes through the filter of beliefs that you have about yourself and about the world. And it's that interpretation of what you make it mean and what you make it mean about yourself. So that whole scale is, you know, a tool of oppression. Why are we making it mean that? As opposed to, this is a measure of how much I weigh today on this planet Earth, right? With its gravitational pull, I could go to the moon and weigh one sixth of what I weigh on the earth, I'd be a little taller over time. And then we want an interpretation that actually serves us. So is the interpretation if I weigh a certain amount that I need to lose weight, that I'm not good enough, that doesn't serve us? Is it the scale can't measure my talent, my creativity, my capacity for love. I think that's a far more helpful way of thinking about the scale. When you're standing on it, if you're beating yourself up, if you're saying, you know, I want to be able to fit into this outfit in my closet, I'm like, so you're not choosing to wear clothes, clothes that fit you, you're trying to fit into an outfit. So we're basing how we feel about ourselves on this external thing. Like who came up with the rule that you're supposed to be a certain size, that it, you know, a certain, if you're a certain body type, you're at a distinct disadvantage. If you're big boned, you're going to be disadvantaged in the way we have things set up. So I'm like, I say find clothes that you feel good in that help you show up as your best self, that help you think in terms of how do I take care of myself today? And if you're doing all those things that ultimately do serve you and your body would be at a lower weight, optimally, where you're managing your stress and all that stuff, you may very well get smaller. So from that perspective, I am aligned with the intuitive eating folks that I think we will shrink or expand based on the conditions that we create for our body. So how do we create conditions that are optimized for us?

Okay, so with that said, I'm curious your opinion and you started talking about intuitive eating, but I'm curious your opinion on navigating the differences between, you know, what gets measured gets managed. Because we, when we were defining, with diet and we were talking about restriction and what really stuck out to me is that you were talking about how we have that. You know, there's research now that demonstrates and shows us that the actual, you know, the actual thinking of like, don't have that, don't have that. The restriction is actually just perpetuating more of the problem. Right. It goes along with what you're saying that where you put your attention is where you grow and in is what grows. So how do you navigate the nuances and the differences of getting present to what needs to be changed? Because if you want to do something different, it means that Something different, something needs to change. And so how do you navigate, you know, what gets measured, gets managed. Easy is earned. You need to make sure that you, you know, you have to be honest with yourself about know, relentless execution versus perpetuating the problem, constantly thinking about it over restricting. How do you, how do you navigate the differences and the nuances of the seemingly paradoxical existence?

Well, I was, as I was listening to you, I thought how much it sounded like black and white, all or nothing thinking. Right. The. What was the one that you said something about is earned.

Easy is earned.

Easy is earned. I. I don't really actually even know what that means. Easy is earned.

The concept of like effortless eating or the concept of like, it comes from this idea. The idea that like anytime you try something new, like even if we're talking about like learning how to walk, if you watch a baby learn the mechanics of walking, the amount of effort that it takes to first learn the skill will eventually have a compounding effect and become unconsciously competent.

Yes.

So that is the, that the idea of like, it needs to be easy and effortless, actually a compounding effect of a ton of effort in the beginning.

Yeah, Yeah. I think there's, it's like a two by two. We talk about unconscious versus conscious. We talk about incompetent versus competent. So if folks aren't familiar with that grid, then it would be kind of like in the beginning. A baby doesn't even know that they don't know how to walk. Right. So they're unconscious and they're incompetent at it. At some point they decide they want to, but it's takes a lot of effort and then it gets easier over time with practice to the point where now walking, we don't have to think about it. We're conscious, we're unconsciously competent. That's. So the easy is earned. You're talking about that. Correct. Okay. So. And walking is kind of a habit. Our body knows that. It's. It's when you look at the habit, you've got the part in the prefrontal cortex that's a conscious thought that says, I want to go to the kitchen to get a glass of water or to refill my cup with coffee. And then all that procedural memory is stored in your basal ganglia. You don't have to think about how do I put one foot in front of the other. Unless you're recovering from something like a stroke or an accident where you're learning how to re. Walk. So. Or learning how to walk again. Um, so in my book, I actually. Well, the book doesn't cover it as much as I say, very similar to what James Clear talks about in Atomic Habits, that we want to make it easy so that it can be inevitable. And there's a. There's a lot of, like, I give an example of motivational interviewing in there, too, where, you know, I want you to figure out whatever that habit is that you want to create. I'm actually a big fan of picking one at a time. Like, I don't want people to do all five at once. That would be all or nothing. Thinking that saying, I need to do all of. Well, no, you don't actually need to do all of them. We will trust that eventually you'll get them all. But let's pick. How about when you're first starting, pick the one that sounds like it's the easiest one for you to do and then find a version of it that is doable. So right now, if you're drinking four glasses of water and you want to get to nine, are you going to be able to do that all at once? Or how about we go from four to five glasses? And then you were talking about tracking, measuring. So you need to understand where you're starting from to know, right. It's like, what are you trying to improve? And how will you know that you've improved if you don't have some specific ways? So when it comes to not measuring. Well, so I have an aura ring because I think sleep is really important. We're supposed to be spending, like, right? Yeah, spending. What is it, a third of our life sleeping? I think it's not just like a pillar. It becomes a foundation for so many things. And the. Our ring gives us some objective data, but they're subjective as well. If I asked you this morning, how did you sleep? Are you going to rely completely on the data that the Oura Ring app gives you, or can you tell me how you feel? Do you feel like. And sometimes I'm like, I think the aura algorithm is off. Since I woke up, I'm like, I don't think I was awake for that long. I remember waking up briefly, but this is saying, like, I was awake for 15 minutes. I just don't think that's true. So I think it goes back to, like, how much do you trust what you know, your own sense of what's happening as well? So when you talk about measurement, I do think we want to be very deliberate about what we're choosing to measure. So when I'm talking about weight, Loss. And I, I always say if I could unzip you and look at you on the inside, how are you doing? So I don't want like when you look at, if you're flying a plane or driving a car, there's a dashboard. If you're running a business, there's a whole bunch of different metrics that you're looking at. If, if you're running a business and you only look at the revenue line and you're not looking at your costs and your margin and your profit like you're going to be in trouble. So when we talk about weight loss, if you're only focused on the scale, I think that's where you're not figuring out where some, some of the balances are. So I look at things like, you know, your blood pressure, your cholesterol levels, we look at your body composition, the percent body fat, we can do some measurements of, you know, like a wall sit or how many push ups you can do standing on one leg. Right. All of those kind, how long you can hold a plank, all of those things would be a measure of strength too. So yeah, so I think when you talk about what doesn't get measured, kind of doesn't get. It's, it's where we're choosing to focus, place our attention on. Yeah.

So it's interesting because you know the title of your book, you talk about thoughts or habits too. That's the name of the book. Right. And so yeah, that you know, even down this habit, you know, or even in this conversation around like measurement and, and then getting clear on part, you know, what it is and being intentional with what it is that we're managing in the vein of that the thoughts itself are also habits. I think high achievers or people who are in a perpetual mental state, state of like never feeling like enough, doesn't matter what the measurement is. What are some of the ways and things that you help them navigate and improve the mental component of shifting their thoughts.

So I think the most important thing there is making a distinction between self worth and self esteem. When we talk about love and acceptance, we're talking about who we are. When we talk about self esteem, we talk about approval, validation, pride, all those things. It's about what you do, it's about what you've achieved, what you've accomplished. And when you conflate who you are with what you do, that's where I think we get in trouble. So as a parent, parents would probably get this really quickly. Like you love your child unconditionally, doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what they do, you still love them. You might not be proud of something they've done or you might be very, very proud, but it's of what they've done, how, who they are. And so I think that chasing that feeling of good enough from what you do is, is where it's like, it's like, it's like emotional eating where you're trying to solve an emotional problem with food. It's, you know, if you have physical hunger, food is going to help. If you have an emotional hunger, food is going to be a very temporary solution, but it's not the long term solution. So we want to separate love from approval. We want, right, we wanna, so like external validation telling you that you're good enough, but the validation is about something you did, not necessarily about who you are. Does that help?

Yeah, totally. Do you, do you break this down and talk about this inside your book?

I do, I do, yeah.

So do you talk about how, you know, do you, you know, how you gave us a clear example of how people can muddle this? What are some of the other habits that people get into in terms of, you know, mixing up self worth and self esteem and then how do you break that apart?

Well, I think the most obvious in, in weight loss would be the, when I lose the weight, then I'll be happy. Then I'll feel, be able to feel good about my body and about myself. Like how many, how many trainers, how many nutritionists, dietitians, like have heard that, like when I lose the weight, then I'll be happy.

Listen, I've heard this from my trainers. My trainers have sat in their business plans and said to me, I don't look the part. That's why I can't grow my business. Like this shows up for them as well.

Yeah. Or I'm not fit enough.

Yes.

Train trainers who say I'm not fit enough. And I remember thinking when I own the health club, I, I heard trainers say that and I found like, I heard plenty of people when they signed up because they watched my video, they like, they said, I love your energy, you seem so fun. They didn't care about what I, how fit I was. It's like, who do you want to be around? Who helps you feel like I can do anything and I might not be able to do it today, but I will eventually be able to do it. And ultimately that's my goal, is about being healthier and happier. What's going to set me up for that? So, and, and I Mean, I'm saying this because I went through it myself, right? It's not like I never, I had those, I had those thoughts. I still, they still creep up. And then I remind myself that who I am and what I do, like, let's not come, let's not conflate those two. When I'm confusing those two, that's when I get myself in trouble. And then I re, I do, I reset. I'm like, what? So it's, it's. You and I both hear this all the time about that. It's not the answer. It's about asking a better question kind of thing. So it, when I catch myself like, oh, I need to lose X number of pounds or whatever, like I'll catch myself saying that or I would feel better, blah, blah, like, what can I do today to take better care of myself? That aligns with this goal that I have, whatever my long term goal is. It kind of reminds me of the movie the Hunt for Red October, when Alec Baldwin's character, right, he's like shaving or something, he's looking in the mirror and he's like, how do you, what was it he was doing? Something about how do you get the crew to want to get off a submarine? How do you get the crew to want to get off a nuclear submarine? It's like as he raised the question more clearly, the answer became apparent. And so I'm always kind of like, how can I ask myself a better question so that I end up doing the things that I know are going to nourish my body, are going to be good for me.

This is so good. So now something that you brought up that I'm curious about because you used you specifically as an example. You were talking about, you were talking about, you know, how you noticed that this still comes up for you. So now even though you are an authority, you are also an expert and you still are a human having this human experience. What are some of the things that, that, that you do to help reset yourself when you feel like, oh man, I've messed up or I'm not in alignment or I should have figured this out by now. What are some of the things that.

You do so should need have to. Those are all words that I think if you hear yourself sing. And you know what I found? Should isn't necessarily a trigger word for everyone. It's a trigger word for me. But my partner is a retired police chief and he's, he's like, should is a good idea. Shall is like illegally like thou shall do that I'm like, okay, it doesn't have to. So if it's not a trigger for, for you, that's fine. I, I'm just for. So it depends on the person and.

Potentially interpretation of the should. Yes.

Yeah. And, and who, maybe where it originated from. So there's some sort of rule we've made external. We've put the locus of control external to us. When we use words like I need to, I have to, I should. My question would be who says that? Who says that you have to? Where is that coming from? And can you find a, a way to reframe that to rephrase it to be more empowering? And it's, it's funny because I had a good friend of mine from junior high was reading my book and can I actually, let me see if I can find her message because it was, it was a perfect example. I hadn't thought about doing this, but it was such a perfect example of exactly what I'm, I'm saying. So this is right before Thanksgiving. I, I asked her how goes the book reading? She wrote, it's really good. I have not had a lot of free time to just sit and read peacefully. I need a quiet place to read and to really think about everything. That's the hard part. I'm only on chapter three. Let me rephrase that. I am taking in everything so far and I'm excited to be on chapter three. Abundance thoughts. I will make time tomorrow to read. Hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving. So even in that one little text message you saw like how she was able to shift the energy of what she was saying. Those, those thoughts create like an under a mood in us when we tell ourselves that, like we're beating ourselves up as opposed to I'm choosing to do this. What. It's sort of like what am I going to. How do I want to structure my day today to be able to get the things done that I really want to get done? I just thought it was in like one sentence how much she was able to just shift it.

So speaking of shifting, you know, I'm curious. Have you ever encountered someone where you. Where they just couldn't shift the thought? Where they knew logically in an unconscious level that, that they needed to do that, but they just. On an unconscious level, they just could not shift the thought or they kept thinking, thinking that they were responding from a new habit, but they weren't. How's that come up for you? And why do you think that happens?

I had one client that I remember saying to her, I'm like, you're being really hard on yourself. And what I noticed, if we had a session where she'd gotten a good night's sleep, she was much better able to practice what we were talking about. When she was sleep deprived, she had a newborn. When she was sleep deprived, she, she really couldn't think straight. She is super smart woman. And when I brought it up intellectually, she understood it. A lot of times if, if I run into people who are really struggling to become aware of the thought because once we can actually like identify the thought and, and I go through like, I have like a four step process we go through. There's a couple graphics in the book too, but lots of examples, especially where I was working with a client to help them like take a situation and break it all down. So for her, she could understand it. If we could identify the thought, she could, she could see it. The question, the struggle wasn't identifying the thought. And so I encourage people to do things like, well, try meditation. See if that helps you become more of an observer of your thoughts. I also say that, you know those subconscious thoughts we have, every once in a while they might bubble up where we become aware of it. But it's kind of like that dream that you had where you wake up and for a moment you can remember it, but it's fleeting. And that's when I say, well, let's journal, let's get it down. Because even just the distance of putting it down on paper and then going through like an exercise of what's fact, what's a belief, what's an interpretation. If you're drawing a conclusion, that's an interpretation, right? What's a feeling, what's an opinion, what's your opinion, what's someone else's opinion? Like anything that says you should do, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, that's someone's opinion. You may have internalized it, but that's someone's opinion. So being able to get some distance and look at what's being said objectively, I think can really make the difference. But the first part is actually just becoming aware of the thought. So have I run into someone who, who can't do it? I think it's, it really is kind of the awareness of thought piece. They can, everyone can get it intellectually with an example of their own stuff, right?

How long does it take people to shift it?

There's no. It depends. It depends, it depends on what it is. It depends on like, it depends on if there's trauma associated with it like real. That we're not talking about like little traumas, we're talking, you know, big trauma, big T trauma. Because I think, I think a lot of the habits that folks have, especially around anything that's really mood altering, where you're really avoiding something, right? There's, there's like the, there's like mindless eating from boredom or from when you're trying to make an unpleasant task a little more pleasant. My sister talks about the mindless eating she does when she's charting. She's a family practice physician. That's an administrative task that she does. I don't know of any physician that really enjoys charting. Where was I going with this? So that's, that's, that's not a trauma, right? That's not a. Yeah, that's not a trauma, but a big T trauma. If, if, I mean I, I would imagine if someone were sexually assaulted, right? Or raped and they turn to food as a way to protect themselves. Like maybe the story is like, oh, there's been a lot of victim blaming and if I get heavier then I won't be as attractive and therefore I will be safe. Like those kinds of things, you need to uncover that as the subconscious belief that's driving the behavior. That's, that's, that's outside of my scope. I can recognize it, I can refer, but I'm not going to try to, you know, I can, I can work more from today going forward. What can we do to shift and work with a therapist or psychologist, psychiatrist to, as part of a team to help that person and focus on the habit but not on the. How do you sort of change the way you think about that big T trauma? But I recognize that that can be happening and I think it's important to recognize if it's happening.

And, and I, I also want to ask, and I want to be mindful of your time though. You know, we, we, we often compartmentalize, you know, big T and little T. But the compounding effect of little T and being constantly disregulated in a constant state of, of, you know, critical, critical, critical. You're too fat, you're too like those are neural pathways in your brain that also need to get rewired that are also habitual that, that you know, have depth. I think about frequency, right? We think about how potent our life force is. And if we all, if you know, a toddler, a 96 year old woman who's never pitched before and like pitcher for Yankees step up to the plate to throw a pitch, the Speed and strength behind the throw is all going to be different for each one of those players, even though they're doing the same thing. So regardless of the depth of the trauma, it's not to invalidate or say those don't work. Because depending on how big that neural pathway is, honestly can depend on how potent and frequent, you know, the frequency of that habit. Would you agree?

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I think habits, it reminds me of like I use the, the analogy or the metaphor of the Grand Canyon and the Colorado River. Like think about the power of that river and what it was able to do. And so if you have a habit like you brush your teeth with your right hand and you try to shift it to the left to be automatic, that's gonna take a, a long time, that it may never feel natural.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

In which case I would say get a sonic hair toothbrush.

Interesting though. You know they have all these like, you know, I say they. The Universal Day. 26 days to change a habit, 21 days to change a habit. So I, I was curious your opinion on that and where that comes from.

Where that comes from? It, I think it depends on the habit that you're talking about. I think it depends on the person and how big a shift that habit is. I mean if I said I want you to develop the habit of going for a 10 minute walk every day and you currently walk five minutes, is it going to be hard for you to get to 10? Probably not. There's also. So when we look at the anatomy of a habit, there's the cue, the routine and the reward. That's, that's from Charles Duhigg, the Power of Habit. And then James Clear talked about the anticipated reward creating a craving. The reason we do what we do is because at some point, whatever that habit is, solve the problem. So people will say, oh, success, success is a poor teacher. This is why we have the habits we do. Because it successfully addressed some problem and provided a solution for us, a reward. And the reward could be something as simple as avoiding discomfort. So I don't mean reward is always a pleasure seeking thing. It could be a avoid pain discomfort thing. Don't you think there's some reward in.

Pain for some people?

Yeah, sure, sure.

But they've gotten comfortable with the chaos of pain.

Yeah. It keeps them from having to do something different. It's the devil you know, it's the certain, like I, I might not like it, but I know it. So when you're trying to change a habit, if you can get really clear on like isolating what is the actual. And I believe it is a thought. I. You know, James Claire talks about different triggers as being like emotions and stuff like that. There's a thought that triggered that emotion there. And, and it might take a while for you to figure out what it is. You might feel it in your body and then have to like reverse engineer to figure out what happened. But something h. Some thought triggered a whole bunch of stuff, right? It's not a situation. I don't believe situations trigger thoughts that trigger emotions, blah, blah, blah. So if you can get really clear on what that trigger is, you're aware of the routine and you identify what the reward is. If you want to change a habit, you want to make sure that you've aligned everything so you're really getting clear on what that reward is. And if you can do the James clear thing and create an anticipated reward, then the habit can take hold much faster. So I do think you can. The creating a habit by design, if you will, can accelerate the process. So there's a, there is a method to making it more able to stick. Right. You like, in very simple terms, it would be like habit stacking. Excuse me? Habit stacking. Crowding out. All those things do work. There's a, there's a basis behind those.

Yeah. Okay, cool. Okay. This has been amazing and I want to be mindful of your times. So what are some of the best places I can send my people if they want to learn more about what you do? Read your book. What are some of the best places I should send them?

Oh, okay. Well, I didn't mention in the beginning, so I do have a podcast. It's happy and healthy with Amy Lang. You can find it on Apple and Spotify. For the book you can go tothoughts or habits2.com and you can order it there. I actually have a free bonus. So it's actually a live workshop happening on January 2nd at 4pm Pacific time. So we're going to go from 4 to 6 and it's a two parter. So the first part took place actually this past weekend. It's my goal Getter series. So part one was Dare to dream bigger and the replay is available for anyone who buys the book. You can, you can watch the replay. And then part two is make your dreams come true. So this is where we're actually gonna actually going to create like what your. And it's in the book. Like I talk about it in the book. So this is really a companion to that. It's. There's a. There's a companion workbook that goes with the book. And in the workshop, I actually take you through those exercises. And so I'm a firm believer that we gotta practice. It's applying and applying and integrating. Knowing it isn't enough. Goethe says that. Right. Knowing it isn't enough, we gotta apply. So. And it's not just applying once. I want. Yeah, we talked about that practice. Becoming unconsciously competent requires deliberate practice, especially in the beginning. And then over time it can get easier. And so thoughts are habits too is a good place to go happy and healthy with Amy on Instagram, my handle is @habitwhisperer. It's also Habit Whisperer on YouTube. I'm just starting a channel there and I actually, I have the replay of the workshop on there. And then on Facebook and LinkedIn it's Amy Lang coaching.

Okay, amazing. And we'll be sure to link all of those up inside of the show notes. Amy, thank you so much for pouring into me and pouring into my community. This has been an awesome episode. I really appreciate it.

Oh, well, it's been a joy. Thank you so much for the opportunity to share.

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