Is Fat Loss Part of Being Healthy? with Jonny Landels

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 242. Today I'm sitting down with coach Johnny Landles, and we're discussing is fat loss part of being healthy? Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance in movement, package and position their products, services, and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

What's up, coach? Thank you so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson, and if this is the first time you're hanging out with me today, welcome. I'm super pumped that you're here. I have a really great, exciting episode on tap for you today. Coach Johnny Landels is joining me on the show. He is a health coach working online and is passionate about men's body image and helping people overcome disordered eating habits. And inside of this episode today, he shares his journey and we have a very canton conversation about how the fitness industry is turning being part of the solution rather than part of the problem regarding messaging around fat loss. Does fat loss. Is fat loss part of a healthy journey, a healthy lifestyle? We discussed this pretty candidly and both share some of our context for why we're having this conversation. And it's such a good episode because I think so many people and as a which I share in the episode is that I've worked with so many coaches who are constantly asking themselves, do I look the part? Am I practicing what I preach? And. And we're really unpacking that inside of the episode today. And we're also talking about the. And I share my experiences of feeling like, oh, man, I thought I already healed that. And then recognizing and realizing, oh, nope, there's still more work to do and how we can navigate this inside of our own coaching practice and how it can be part of an effective solution and raise the industry standards instead of continuing to perpetuate and be part of the problem. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. What's up, Johnny? Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. How are you, Beverly?

It's my pleasure. I'm honored to join you. I'm great. I'm doing well. I mean, it's rainy and cloudy in England, but, you know, it could be worse.

It's kind of sunny here in New York, but it was so funny before we hit record, it was like the tech. It was the tech catastrophe of the century. And now I'm like, all right, well, now we're settled. Everything's fine. Okay, so let's just. I'm really excited for today's episode. So for those of you who have never met you or heard your work, would you mind sharing with us a little bit about who you are, who you serve, and how you got there?

Yeah. So my name's Johnny Landles. I'm very much a coach who focuses on disordered eating practices and clients with sort of like low self esteem, low body image, and. And low confidence, really in the. In themselves, their eating habits and where they want to get to with their fitness and exercise. Outside of that, I was someone who has always struggled with my own weight, my own confidence. Thought I'd kind of found the answer with very strict calorie tracking, very intense exercise, very high volume of exercise, until I really found myself struggling to maintain what I thought was a healthy weight. Having quite a bad relationship with food and exercise in general. Always feeling like I had to be doing some form of, you know, diet, fasting, or counting calories to maintain what I thought was, you know, healthy or good for me. And that led me down that path to really uncover sort of what disordered eating means, what intuitive eating actually is, what it means to have a great body image and a healthy relationship with self and exercise. So I went through that process of sort of getting those things myself and then revamped my coaching practice, very much so, to help other people with that. So a big transformation, really, in the coaching that I do as well.

Oh, my gosh. I have so many conversations. I have so many questions. I feel like this is a big conversation these day and this. And I have so many things that I want to ask. So hopefully you don't mind. Can you listen if I ask anything that's too personal? You could just be like, beverly, stop.

And no, don't worry.

Okay. So one of the things that I'm curious about, and honestly, these questions come from my context. Just. Just to give you some, is that I came from a musical theater background, so I used to have this. I used to have this. This drive in me that thought, you know, if I just fix my body, then my perfect job will be on the. On the next side, right?

Oh, yeah.

It really wasn't until I got my children that, like, transformed my life in this regard. So this vein that you. That you coach on has been something that's clearly clear and close to my heart. So I have a lot of my own personal experience which I'm happy to share in this show. So I'm curious, okay, as a professional, can you share a little bit more about what your point a was? Like, were you a coach at this time? Were you kind of operating from this place of like my body image isn't an issue? Like, how did you uncover that? Oh, hey, I've got a not so healthy relationship with this and I don't even, I didn't even realize it.

Oh yeah, I was, I was very much coaching with the same business that I have now, you know, operating under the same coaching title, the same business name was very. And that's what made it very difficult to share my struggles because I felt like I had to be the pinnacle example of perfect physique, health eating and all of these things. Whereas actually I was in more turmoil about these than other than ever. And interesting you said that. My, my background's musical theater. I studied at a drama, drama school in Wales. You know, spent a couple of years in London trying to be an actor. It was actually in London when I became a fitness professional because that was my job when I was trying to be an actor. You know, I found that was the best way to be flexible around auditions and, and jobs and you know, if I need, if I needed to go and do a three month pantomime, you know, I was going to be able to get time off from being a fitness professional rather than having a real, quote unquote, real career. So I had chat about being sort of too big and things like that in my musical theater days. Some of it was based on body size, some of it was based on muscle mass. You know, neither of it is okay, let's be honest. But. Right. And it's a very aesthetic driven industry. But when I started realizing the real dangers of my eating and, and body image. Yeah, you know, it was, it was only a few years ago. I think it was very much post Covid because, you know, through, through Covid and through lockdown, I was very much able to sort of live within my own bubble of I have some weights at home. I can, you know, I can just do intermittent fasting. I can eat really low calorie through the day, you know, protein shake and veggies, only sort of for two meals, just have a more indulgent dinner. I'm staying pretty lean this way, exercise a lot, go for my one hour walk a day, every day type Thing. And it wasn't until I started to really realize that, okay, if I wasn't doing those things, if I wasn't exercising every day, if I wasn't not eating until 12, and then for my first two meals, only having protein and veggies, if I wasn't doing those things, then I was putting body fat on. And I was thinking to myself, well, why? How can I not maintain something sort of leaner than without those practices? And also, what's my obsession with being leaner? Like, where is this all coming from? And I was seeing my own clients really struggling with their own quote unquote results or their perception of what their results should be, which was this, this scale weight loss that I was promising everyone, you know, come and work with me. I'll help you lose weight. You'll feel great, you'll be able to keep it off. All you need to do is know how many calories you're eating type things. That's what I. I'd mastered myself. But really, I had this big inner turmoil of, I'm not happy with the way I'm eating. I'm either having to track or I'm not. I'm feeling quite obsessive about all of it. I'm never really happy with the way that I look. My clients were feeling similar. You know, if they weren't tracking, they weren't getting the results, or they would quickly burn out from having to track all the food they ate and weigh themselves all the time and take progress pitches. Because, of course, why wouldn't they? Because those things take a lot of mental effort. And it wasn't until I then did a coaching certification which was all about actual behavior change, you know, behavior change, motivational interviewing, coaching conversations, that they started talking about disordered eating. And when I started looking at disordered eating and the mindset behind disordered eating, kind of compensation, the bargaining, the all or nothing, the tight rules, the schedules, the restriction, the. The necessary out, you know, external control, focus. And if that wasn't there, the lack of control that was shown, you know, like binging, overeating, these things that I was just like, wow, there are so many alarm bells going off here about my own lifestyle, yet I was still coaching other people in this way. And so for me, it was just a massive warning light that I was like, what I'm doing actually isn't okay, both with myself and with my clients. So I rapidly started to implement those things with myself, and I rapidly started to implement them with my clients as well. You know, kind of changing around my messaging, changing around the way that I worked. But it was very much a two to three year gradual shift from being, being very weight loss focused to being very weight neutral. And I didn't share a lot of it online until now, until I could very safely say this is where I was back then and it wasn't. Okay. But obviously I couldn't share it back then because I felt almost as if I would have been a fraud to let people know that I was struggling in those ways. And the life of fitness that I was living was actually very much a mask for some things underneath the surface that weren't. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. This is amazing. So first of all, you know, as a former district maintenance manager, I've hear. I've heard this a million times. Right. And one of the things that you said, you know, I don't look the part, I don't feel the part to be a, to be a trainer or coach or whatever it is. And I think it holds so many people back and they don't. And people. Coaches don't realize that, you know. You know, look, the part compared to what? I mean, that's so subjective, right, that you're. Are you comparing yourself to people, People's, you know, photoshopped video, you know, photos that are still, you know, on magazines, on social media, whatnot. I mean, it's so easy for people to photoshop themselves these days. I know, right. And so there are people compare themselves to that. So it's like, look the part compared to what? And it's interesting. And then I, you know, I've also been in business coaching programs where people have legitimately said that. So it's. No, what like, oh, you need to look the part. And no wonder people have this pressure on themselves. Right? It's just what's disappointing is. And one of the things that you said or that you didn't share, but I know I've experienced, which is that the shame cycle. The shame cycle of like, man, I fell off the wagon, I didn't do it, blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, we don't give ourselves a human experience.

No, you know, no, no, not at all. Yeah. And it's hard, you know, you said there about what are you comparing yourself to? But it's very much that, that fitness aesthetic that you see online on magazines and on, you know, movies. Movies and TV shows, you know, you can't, you can't actually escape that. And I know for women it's bad, but if you think of it from a guy's Perspective. If you look at the COVID of men's health magazines, that's the only aesthetic that you ever see. If you look at superhero movies and James Bond movies, it's very much a case of, now that, you know, that V shaped, thin waist, big chest, big shoulders, big arms. It's. And, and the kind of fitness rhetoric you see is a lot of personal trainers who use their, you know, their photo. Photo shoot, transformation pictures from when they were at the, you know, the biggest. The leanest part of their lives is the only thing they showcase online. And I felt privy to that as a trainer. You know, I, I had periods of my life when I was very lean and I was exercising a lot, and I would use photos of my days at that stage, you know, at competitions to say, hey, like, you know, I. I managed to get this from here because I did these things. You can have this life as well. I didn't know any better. You know, I was in my mid-20s and I was trying to genuinely help people. And that's the thing as well. I was trying to genuinely help people. I never did any of this out of malice. I was never. But. But I was sat there and actually, it shows how bad my body dysmorphia got, because I look back at videos, even of myself through Covid where. And through Covid, I know that I was self conscious about my body size and I'm bigger now than I was then, you know, and back then I thought, oh, I need to get back to here. It was just always this obsession with being lean and thinking that that was the sort of ticket to self confidence and all of these other things, which, of course, it isn't.

Mm, okay. I mean, it's so good. And I also feel like there's so, you know, it's a nuanced conversation because I'll be honest, there's stuff that keeps me up at night. Right? Where, where, especially as someone who helps fitness professionals with marketing and growing their business. And there is this one component of, of this, you know, we dive. We dive really deep into messaging and honestly, the psychology of humans. And something that keeps me up at night is, is when you know this concept and we've all heard it before, where it's like, you need to meet people where they're at and what it is that they're thinking, and then carry them along for the ride. And then you have to start asking yourself these hard questions of why did they think that they didn't come out of the womb thinking, I need to lose weight, right? Or for aesthetic reasons, whatever that is. Like, that's not what they're thinking about. I have those six and seven year olds, they're not thinking about that.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, so you have to start asking those questions like, what came first, the chicken or the egg? And are you, as someone who's trying to grow a business and genuinely help people, are you facilitating a transformation or are you making it worse, making the problem worse? And it is something that keeps me up at night where it's like, how do you, how do you find that dance where you actually, in order to meet them, you, you meet them where they're at and, and then actually shift perspective and raise the bar for the industry.

Yeah. And I mean, I'm really glad you brought that up. Lovely. Because I think it's changing as well, our perception of what the transformation actually is and what that means. Right. Because I know as someone who's worked with marketing people in the fitness industry as well, it was very much a case of, you know, promise the biggest result in the shortest space of time that you can and try and do that in an atmosphere that requires as little of your time as possible so that it's a scalable product. Right. That was, that was things that I was taught.

Yeah.

And, and watch other fitness professionals do that, you know, showcase before and afters. Hey, this was done in eight, eight weeks. You can do this too. And, and you know, set their business up, sort of promising these transformations. But I know for a fact that the business that I have now has clients who have been, been with me for longer that are paying me, you know, more money because I, I genuinely have one to one consultations with them and I spend a lot of time working with them from a case of, you know, behaviors, relationship with food, psychology, all of these things. And they're getting results that are that transformation where they're like, I feel so much better about this, this, this and this, you know, I've genuinely changed behaviors in a way that I didn't think possible. And when I check when I put all of this content out there now about, you know, the person that I used to be and how I struggled and, and how, you know, it's not that this happens and it's not okay that there's negative weight, stigma and you know, here's, you know, here are the downsides to kind of these messy relationships with food. These things create, you know, I'm getting a lot of inquiries from that and one I had just today, you know, they even mentioned to me how doing a Six week transformation. Actually it was psychologically damaging, not because of the lack of a result, but it was also because she felt so pressured time wise. You know, like I felt like I just needed to be doing better. You know, I felt like I needed to be more disciplined, doing better and getting better results because the time was running out. And so a lot of the times we think that's like amazing accountability because they're going to really drive action, but actually it's driving a lot of negative self talk within the consumer that they're not doing enough or they're not doing it right and they're running out of time. Whereas actually health and fitness should be something that we engage in for the rest of our lives.

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's strong. It's, it's, it's one of those, it's definitely one of those things that we have to be cognizant of in terms of, you know, making sure that you sleep at night because sometimes that the time, the time can be a good window to make people feel safe in the environment. And it also depends on how you're communicating it and also depends on who and the specificity and who you want to pull in. Right. Some people do really well with deadlines. I tend to be someone who does well with deadlines, some people really don't. And I just think that personally, it's my opinion is that people get trapped in their dogma and like this way is. And I can say that because that's been me. I feel like I have done that both in my, my own fitness, in my business building. It is a huge conscious choice for me to remind myself that there is right and that there's left. There's, there are lots of pain, there are lots of ways to get to Rome. And I think that what makes a coach really good is being able to meet people where they're at and then build the path that's going to work best for them as opposed to, no, you got to do it my way.

Yeah.

And that's hard for young, for less experienced coaches. Not young in age, but when you don't have that clinical, the clinical experience, you have that drive in you to be like, oh, it's got to be this way. Because this is the one way that I know that works. You know, it's hard.

Yeah, it is difficult. Yeah. And all the one way that I felt I've had a result from, or other, other clients have, I'm then kind of showcasing, as you said, it's Knowing the way that you're communicating, any timeframe that you might use and what the kind of benefits are and how you can mitigate any downsides from that. You know, like as I just said there, just said there about that person having that mental downside to it. You know, you can communicate that if that's part of your, part of your offering and part of your messaging to say, hey, you know, some people might feel this way. And here's why that doesn't need to be the case. It can become a strange to understand where people could, could get caught up.

Totally true. Okay, so the other thing too that I want to talk about is that in the vein of dogma, so since we're talking about this, is that on the one side of the pendulum, you have people that are like, starve yourself 1200 calories six days a week, no days off. Everyone is the same 24 hours in the day. Like you can blah, blah, blah. Right. You've got, I think of like 20 year old version of me. Okay, yeah. But then on the other flip side, there's now this whole new group of people that also get into their dig, their dogma without even realizing it. Right now I come at everything with like, look, at the end of the day, if I'm, if you're in my world, I know you're a good person and that you just want to help people we're not trying to hurt. But then you've got this. And I found myself here on this side of the spectrum that is like if my clients were going to tell me that they wanted to lose weight, that it was like, Beverly is going to be mad because I want to lose weight. Right. So how do you navigate this fat loss experience and not equate it to self esteem loss? Because just because you want to lose fat doesn't mean you have low self esteem. So how do you navigate that with your clients and with yourself?

Yeah, it's interesting, Beverly, because you know, I have got clients who are, who have explicitly said to me, you know, this is something that I would like to work on. And I'm always just very quick to tell people, apologies if you've got any background noise from me, me building work. So I'm very quick to tell people that. Really? Because in the past I would just been like, yeah, we can get you that, no problem. Like we'll be able to do that, no issues. Whereas actually now I'm very quick to tell people, I can't really promise you that result. But what I can promise you is Being in control of your behavior so much that the result could happen, right? And it's putting the power in their behavior change. Because I say if we focus on this external result, it doesn't necessarily mean they've got low self esteem, but it becomes all about that external result. And everything becomes very obsessive about this external result or this loss on the scale or however they want to see this change. Whereas actually if we can bring the power back to the client and say, what is it about your, you know, your behaviors or your lifestyle that you are looking to make a change on or that you're not happy with or that you really want to achieve and where the fat loss goal is coming from? You know, where, where is that coming from? Because there genuinely could be some body image work or some rejigging around their education on what health means or some activity, you know, it could be something else entirely. So it's really digging into what that means. So then it's just helping them really say, okay, how would you feel if you were, you know, completely in tune with your hunger, your appetite, if you were choosing foods that helped you feel satisfied, nourished, if you were eating plenty of fruits and vegetables, you're eating plenty of fiber, you were eating plenty of protein, you were exercising regularly, you were sleeping well, you had great boundaries with other people, so therefore you had great relationships as well as great self care. And when you say that to people, they're like, yeah, okay, that's what I want. And you're like, cool, well let's work on making that happen.

Okay, so now I'm, I'm also curious, in your clientele, do you bring, do people come into you? Because there is a, you know, we also have a, you know, we have to look at visceral fat as well in terms of, as people. Like, at least I can speak to the, the, the, the stats in the states, which is that you've got, you know, 88% of Americans that are metabolically inflexible. Okay? So regardless of, you know, and listen, I've seen all of the garbage out there of like people saying that and using that to really mask behind, you know, their own body image stuff. This is why I think that this is an intense, nuanced conversation because people will use that stat and say now and, and stop glorifying obesity. Right? So that's not what I'm saying here. However, it is something to look at when it comes, you know, as we age, you know, and I feel like as a mom, when I was in a 200 pound body. I had 200 pounds on my body and I was trying to chase my, you know, I was trying to walk up the stairs for my two then two year old and I was like, I can't, this is, I can't live like this. And so how do you navigate that conversation and really uncover like, okay, this is a health risk and we need to look at this from a healthy standpoint lens versus, you know, masking it?

Yeah, no, it's a great question, Beverly, because as you said, it's not about turning that around to then cover up your own fat phobia and say stop glorifying obesity and all that. Because that would have been definitely something that my former self would have gone into. You know, this is about your health, this is about all of these other things. Because again, visceral fat. Yes. Is a risk factor. Visceral fat is usually a lifestyle related fat deposit. And so usually you can, it's interesting because we can't assume that everybody in a larger body has a large amount of visceral fat. They might have large amounts of subcutaneous fat and actually be extremely active. We can't assume somebody's health status and their behavior status just from looking at them. And this is a lot of the content that I create now. You know, it's not okay that two people in a fast food restaurant will get very different glares just because of the size of their body, because you actually have no idea of what else they're doing or what they're ordering from that restaurant. And with clients that work with me who might be in larger bodies and who are uncomfortable, you know, I do remind them we have research now with people in higher BMIs who are living just as long, as long as they are eating plenty of fruits and vegetables, not smoking, drinking very moderately, exercising frequently and getting great amounts of sleep. Sleep. It's just like if you're not doing those things, let's work on those things. And it's, and it's why I'm very much a case of. I truly believe that when people eat fully in attunement to their hunger signals and appetite signals that their body will return to where it's meant to be. That just might look different for different people. Particularly because you're in the States, I'm in the uk. You know, so our population now is very, very mixed with regards to their ancestry. We're going to have different sized bodies within that population. There could be something to be said about, you know, a more palatable food environment. I Personally have seen research recently that's shown over the last 30 years our metabolisms have lowered despite not a decrease in activity. And the kind of like, nihilistic theorist inside of me wants to kind of blame diets for that kind of like famine restriction sort of cycle of doing that. But that's obviously could never be studied. I'll keep that opinion to myself. It's just interesting. I find that I think, you know, things, things like visceral fat and, you know, blood glucose and cholesterol levels and all of those things can be measured and tested. So, like, let's measure and test those things and then do the behaviors that we can do to mitigate those risks rather than just blaming it on the side. You made a good point about being in a large body and struggling with activity, and it is a good point. And I remind people as well that again, activity you spoke about. 88% of Americans, you know, have this risk factor. It's also just because a lot of Americans and a lot of UK people don't actually meet activity guidelines. You know, they don't, they don't go walking regularly, they don't play sports, they don't strength train. Bringing those back into people's lives is a big advocate of mine because I think really finding hobbies that you enjoy, strength training, going for walks, and being in nature are massive components of living a healthy lifestyle.

Well, and I also think that there is an environmental component that people don't want to really look at in addition to, you know, just our food choices. Right. And I don't even, I'm not even talking about going into a fast food restaurant. Like, I'm just even talking about, we have a, you know, as fitness professionals, people who've been living this life for so long regardless. Like, for me, I don't, I don't coach train, I don't train people anymore. But like, I, I can still look at a serving of chicken and know, oh, that's a serving of chicken. And know it unconsciously, you know, just because I've done it for so long. I think we take for granted the fact that most people do not have not lived that life. They don't, they don't look at, they, they have a, they don't understand. They can't really even tap into their hunger cues. They don't even know what that looks like. They can't listen to their body. They don't know what it like. And then 90% of that, like. So I'll give you another tangible example. I have significantly reduced my Alcohol intake. Right. Significantly reduced it for lots of various reasons. But the one, and I only did one thing. I just stopped bringing it into my house. That's it. That's the only thing I did. I just stopped buying it. And so I didn't like put any rules or restrictions on it. I just made it a hell of a lot harder to get access to it. You know what I'm saying? And I just think that people don't, they're just not living in that, in that type of, in that way anymore. They're underestimating the cons of convenience.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. And I think it's very much a case of being a very much a full circle change. And it's why, again, it's why I'm very quick to create content around. You know, just because you're larger doesn't mean you are, you know, downing extra servings of food or like having all of these extra potato chips or all the rest of it, because then it's that negative judgment is unfair to people who are genuinely not doing those things and creating content. Creating content around that can still then create awareness of a person if they do find themselves eating mindlessly or they do find themselves binging on certain foods or having certain trigger food foods. And it's interesting you spoke about alcohol because I think there's a big difference between convenience foods and, you know, snack food and alcohol. And that there's not really. I mean, alcoholics disagree with me, obviously, but with people who aren't alcoholics, you know, you're not going to go to a store and buy like two bottles of hard liquor and then like drink them in your car before you drive home and hide the bottles so your partner doesn't see the containers. Because one, you wouldn't be able to drive home, you know, you'd be absolutely legless. And it's just there's, there's more stigma attached to that sort of behavior. And I think then consciously not buying that in and you saying, okay, well, I'll just have another beverage, like, you know, a soda or something, or a diet soda or something. So I still get like a cold, refreshing, you know, fizzy beverage very similar with food. It's interesting when you really look at that kind of pseudo stealth restriction, how it might manifest as almost the forbidden fruit syndrome of like, actually I need this, I need, need this more than ever, you know, and, and things like ice cream and crisps and, well, potato chips. You can have them out of the house, but can find them easily. And it's, and it's kind of thinking about, again, for you that that kind of environmental cue worked for someone else, it could work with food for someone else, it could be the exact wrong thing. So again, at least it comes back to that same metaphor of there are a lot of roads that lead to Rome. Let's find the one that's going to work best for this behavior change for you.

Totally. And I also think that there's a whole lot of context involved in that. Right. So it's like if people who are. Because I always tell, you know, nine times out of 10, you're people have tried to get healthy and fit before. And so it's all going to be around the neural pathways that are associated in their mind. Right. Maybe they've done like, they've removed things from their external environment and it made the problem worse. And so now that neural pathway is there inside of their brain. And I really just think it comes down to uncovering what's going to work best for them 100%.

And I think then that that comes as full circle to that kind of question of like the method for the person and the awareness of their intake and their own exercise habits. Because that was definitely something that happened for me with regards to my own previous kind of control around food, was that I do now have a massive awareness of certain, you know, calorie information and portion sizes and things like that. And I can't deny that that's. That is definitely within my head. But when I make food decisions, because I've had that past and I've now gone through more of an intuitive standpoint, it's one of those where I do go very far into the kind of principle 10 of eating for health, where I know that I feel very satisfied if I have protein at most meals or if I have a lot of fiber or a lot of fruits and vegetables. Like, I know that having balanced meals, most meals, is satisfying and understand that's a healthy component to eating. I don't have restriction and I have an abundance of foods that previously I wouldn't have trusted myself around. But it's, it's. There's a. Definitely a systematic process to kind of getting to that point. And that won't work necessarily for everyone. First up, so it's thinking to, to if you're a trainer listening to this and you've got a client who wants to make behavior change, it's definitely helping them become a focus of their own change. And so not necessarily restricting foods or making them count calories or all the rest of it, but actually helping them become very aware of their own behaviors and the changes they want to make. Because only then will those changes stick. Because as you said, so many people have tried to get in shape and fail because they've done something that would be a diet where the focus was outside of them, like Weight Watchers or Slimming World or something else. Like, everything's about putting the trust outside of you. We've got to bring the trust back onto the client and help them understand that they do have the power to change behavior and to trust themselves. We're just their guide on the side to help facilitate that change.

Yes, yes. So one of the things I'm also curious about in your own journey, because I know this came up for me a lot of that, right. Is that, is that I would have these moments of where I would feel like I've evolved. I've overcome this feeling of, of I'm no longer restricted. I've healed this, I've arrived. I call these, like, mountain. These are the, the mountain peak moments. I noticed this to myself, even in business, right? Wherever you go, there you are, right? Likelihood of, of. Of, you know, we're always uncovering the onion, right? And so what I. Why I'm giving you this context is have you ever had these moments of, of like, oh, man, I'm falling backwards, or oh, I thought I'd already taken care of this before. Oh, my gosh, here we are again. Right? So, for example, I would get into these moments of like, after I had my babies, I'd be like, okay, I've already. I've done the healing. I've done it. And then now I look back at these photos and I'm like, o, you thought you were recovered here, but you weren't. And you had this. You went back, you went back, you slid back into being obsessive even though you were pretending you weren't.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. I think over the last few years, as I've made more of a move into being more intuitive about my own food and, and using that as a tool to help clients with, there was definitely a free. A free phase where I was. I sort of ditched calorie counting and had felt like I was kind of making progress forward without it. But then I was falling into more. More like, because you can have guidelines and you can have frameworks and you can have them not be rule based, right? You can say to people about, you can teach people about balanced meals, you can teach people about eating every, you know, three to Five hours to regulate their eating patterns and of course avoids any sort of under or overeating. You can talk to people about kind of being mindful about their snacks and kind of being conscious about their eating decisions. And you can do those things without them becoming diet rules and being restrictive. And I, I definitely found myself being very rule based and restrictive. Right. I'll have one purposeful snack a day. And other than that, they're just going to be main meals and I have to be 100 hungry for that main meal. And every main meal has to be 100% balanced. If I was going out to eat, I would still be looking at the calories of the meals, for example, and like looking at the components to say, oh yeah, okay, but you know, should I eat that? Do it. Like, is that actually going to be okay for me to eat or is that healthy? Rather than genuinely thinking about. There's definitely a place for considering your values and goals as a person when you make an eating decision. But you've also got to consider your desire and what's going to be more satisfying to you and have permission to know that if you want to have a burger at a restaurant, for example, but you find yourself halfway through being actually very full and very satisfied, you can leave that and you don't need to finish it because it's the last time on earth you'll allow yourself to have a burger. So it's kind of that I found myself getting too restrictive again.

You know, I'm laughing because that's the exact same crap I used to say to myself, like, I have to eat. This is the last supper.

That's what we call it. Last, last supper eating, you know, based off that restrictive model or restrictive mindset of eating. So when you go out, if you break any of your rules or you have a cheat meal, it's like, well, this is the last time I get to have this. So let's, let's go, you know, let's, let's totally.

So now I'm curious, you know, from your perspective, how when you started to make this transition and realizing this, you know, sharing this with your clients and moving your clients towards this, what was that transition like? Because I know for me, and I'm just a firm believer and I know it, I see it all the time. Like attracts like. So the people that are coming into your environment are the people that are very similar to you. So how are you able to navigate and transition outside of, you know, this new learning and this new way of being healthy?

Yeah. So because I'VE got clients that have been with me throughout that entire shift and the ones, and there have been ones that have left, but they've left because they felt like it was the right time for them to leave anyway or they've got the result that they were looking for or you know, you kind of have that natural ending to client road ships. Anyway, ones that have stayed, we've definitely had genuine conversations again about because some of them still do just want to lose fat. And I have said to them, I would much rather I said this is completely up to you, but you know, the way that I work is very much going to be based on your kind of behaviors, relationship with food, your relationship with yourself. And we're going to let the chips fall where they fall really on that, on that continuum. And I'm happy helping you with that regardless, with you knowing that that's the case rather than kind of throwing you almost to the back to the walls of the online coaching world for them to potentially be, you know, helped by someone who doesn't have that same ethos. And so far people have just been, yeah, cool. Like that's the change that I want to make. And if a fat loss happens, then it's going to happen and I know that it's going to be a result of my identity and my, my lifestyle and all the value these other behaviors that I still haven't 100 nailed yet be nailed. Cool, let's go for it. And then, yeah, new people. I think for me it's also, it's also showcasing a lot more of my inner personality with regards to, you know, the fact that I was a massive people pleaser, the fact that I had a lack of boundaries, the fact that I had, you know, massive hero worshipping issues where I would always look for the answer from someone else or outside of me and how that played out into my relationship with food. You know, my insecurities around my body and where, where those came from and how I've started to overcome those things and all of the kind of deeper person and you know, my love of musical theater and sport and, and dogs and all of these other things, like all of those things have then attracted people who want to work with me because of all of those things and not just the fact that I could potentially help them with their relationship with food because it's not like I'm the only intuitive eating coach in the world.

So now do you have, do you, do you call in now anybody who. Do your people still want to lose fat?

I don't I don't actively call them in. I'm very, very key to say, I can't promise you that, but I have compassion, if that's still a goal of yours. And I say to people that your body might return to a set point that is lower than where it is now as a result of behaviors. And then so there have been people who I've had consults with recently where that was a goal of theirs, you know, in the form that they wanted to be fat. And then having that chat with them about. It's not something that I can promise, but I can promise this. It's having that conversation. That's very much where I'm at now.

That's great. So now the people that you're calling in, what are they struggling with?

I think the biggest thing they're struggling with is that endless noise in their head about whether or not they're doing the right thing when it comes to food, whether they're doing the right thing when it comes to exercise. The fact that they've gone around the meals 100 times with different exercise plans, diets, even potentially different coaches, and never really got the result that they were either promised or quote, unquote, thought they should have reached. And genuinely a conversation I've had with a lot of people is they just don't even know how to eat anymore. You know, they've got that much noise inside of their head about that's bad, or that's got too many calories or that's a sin, or that's got too many points that they just genuinely don't know what to do on a day to day basis. And they feel furious and frustrated about it because actually a lot of these people are like high achievers at work and things like that as well. They're like, you know, like, I'm actually really, you know, successful, but I feel like I've never cracked this. But the cracking of this, it's almost helping them redefine what that means. Because it should be about what they think cracking it is, not what they think it should mean, if that makes sense.

It does make sense. It does make sense. So now I'm, I'm also curious in terms of, you know, in terms of your messaging, essentially. Right? Because what I'm hearing is that it's like you, you don't want the people to be you. You almost, you want them to shift their focus around, like, stop chasing weight loss. Stop chasing, stop chasing weight. Weight loss in order to lose the weight, the unnecessary weight, essentially. Right. That's. That's what I'm hearing from you. Right. So how do you, you know, shift their perspective?

Yeah, good question. I think people who work with me, it's interesting because people who work with me don't necessarily just follow me off the bat and then they're like, oh, my God, you know, I want to, I want to work with you. No, and, and it takes a lot of time from, you know, from them following me, conversations, you know, maybe listening to the podcast, you know, looking at the content I produce, the testimonials that I have from clients to kind of genuinely start to ask themselves the questions like, okay, if it's not, if it's not just weight loss that I want, if it's not just this drop in the scale that I want, then, then what is it? You know, what is my life if it's not associated with that outcome? Because I talk about all of those different things, things all the time. And when you talk a lot more about the genuine, you know, energy improvements and fitness improvements and health improvements that come, as well as the, you know, the change in positive self talk and confidence in just real, like trust around their eating decisions and actually enjoying their lives with regards to food and stuff again, then people start to, it starts to change that narrative in people's head about, okay, well, maybe that's what's going to make me happy. Rather than this transformation photo or this weight on the scale that I seem to have been chasing, that I've never really grasped or I have had in the past, and actually it wasn't a big thing that I do is remind people of times when they were lighter. I say, look back at when you were lighter, a picture of yourself in the past, and then think about that time and ask yourself if you were happy then or were you trying to diet. And if you were trying to diet at that time and you weren't happy with your body, then it's not about, it's not about your body or the weight that you see on the scale. It's something deeper than that.

Yeah, so good. Okay, so I really want to be mindful of your time. I just real, I mean, I, I could talk about this stuff all day long. I think this is, this is the important stuff, right? Is that it's just really understanding human behavior, what connects, you know, humans and, and I can just, you know, talk about this all the time, but I want to be mindful of your time. So for those of you who are listening, chatting and want to connect with you and go deeper with you, what are some of the best places I can send them.

So Instagram I share, you know, multiple times a day on my personal Instagram, which is just my, my name is my handle, so it's Johnny Landles. J O N N Y L A N D E L S is my username. I have a podcast as well, which I produce weekly. Talking to a lot of people in the eating disorder, intuitive eating disorder, eating space, about positive body image and things like that. You know, I had a very big body image researcher actually on just the other week and that's called beyond the Mirror. That's the podcast name that's on all podcast platforms that you can find things on. And I've just written a sort of mini book about this kind of whole thing called Break Free from Food and Body Obsession, which I'll. I'll share the link with you for Beverly.

I love it. And we'll, we'll be sure to definitely link all of that up in the show notes. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. This has been so amazing and thank you for pouring into me and into the community. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me.

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