Mace Training with a Scoliosis and a Fused Spine with Teresa Teuscher

You are listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 198. Today I am sitting down with Teresa Toucher, talking all about mace training with the scoliosis and a fused spine. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance in movement, package and position their products and services, and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

What's up, coach? Thank you so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson. Today I have a very special guest. I call her Mama T. I know her as Mama T. So hopefully I said your name, your last name, right? Mama T. Please forgive me if I didn't. I'm super excited to have her on. On the show today. Truly, her story is an inspiration to many, to others, and how she has been able to really share her journey in an empowering way is a gift to her community. So Teresa is a trainer with spinal fusion who trains with a Mace, and she shares with us her experience from what it was like becoming a trainer or deciding to be a trainer at age 40, become a movement professional within what she perceived to be limitations and how she has now transformed and taken those limitations to truly be her superpower and inspire and help other people who have scoliosis and. Or train and move with a fused spine. So, without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. What's up, Teresa? How are you? Thank you so much for joining me on the show today.

Thanks for having me.

I'm super excited. And first of all, can I just say how weird it is to, like, say your name. Usually I call Mama T. Mama T and I have gone back. You know, we have known each other for. Since the dawn of time, really, for at least for me, is what it feels like.

Yeah. Since the beginning. Since the beginning.

Since the beginning. How amazing is that? Okay, so for those of you who have not had the pleasure of knowing Mama T and knowing your work, I'd love for you to share with us a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there.

Sure. So my name is Teresa, also known as Mama T. I have scoliosis, and I have been a personal trainer for 12 years with. I'm going to kind of go a little bit in circles or Zigzag. So I was diagnosed with scoliosis in the late 70s and had surgery in about 82, 83. My spine was curved like an S. The degrees were 45 and 55. And I have what are called Harrington rods with screws into my spine, so I cannot physically bend my spine. When I bend, I'm as flat as a wall, basically. My movement is extremely limited. Lateral movement side to side is minimal. But when I turned 40, I decided to become a personal trainer. I have a background in dance, and when scoliosis happened and I had the surgery, it terminated all of that for me. It was a very hard and dark time, but I still found ways to move as much as I could with the limitations that I had. I live in New York City. I pretty much walked everywhere. I lived in Germany for years. I rode a bike. Didn't matter what the weather was, but I just found ways to stay as mobile as possible. And so when I turned 40, I became a personal trainer having nothing to do with scoliosis. I went on that journey because I had gained a substantial amount of weight and treated myself to a trainer and found that I could lose the weight and did the work. And then I said, if I can do this, I want to help other people do it. Along the way did that, and then it became more of a passion of working with people who have scoliosis or spinal fusions. In particularly. In my experience of being a trainer, I came across something called a mace, also known as a gadda. And Bev, AKA Dutchy, has, has seen some of what I do, and it's a tool that has been around for thousands of years. The original form is called the gada, created in India, and they use them to compete then and still now. And. And what I love about training with that is that I feel limitless with my limitations. I've been doing that now for about five or six years. I've gotten certified in a number of things. Another thing I got certified in specifically for the feeling of, quote, unquote, feeling normal. Which meant that I didn't feel like I was limited, was I got certified in mat Pilates because it gave me the feeling of feeling normal. But I really have gravitated towards training with the mace. And I have had the opportunity and honor of working with people who have spinal fusions who have scoliosis and who are open to training with the mace. And it's been, yeah, I mean, I pretty much use that method for training daily. It's a way to increase mobility, strength, power, and Fire your core and when you have a spinal fusion, it is really hard or it can be really hard to fire those core muscles. But training with a mace, it's just. It brings you there without having to think about it. And that's kind of my story in a nutshell. My daughter, as you know, was also diagnosed with scoliosis five years now. But she. We did something called Schroff, which is specific scoliosis therapy to decrease her curves. So I did that with her and she's part of my journey, I'm part of her journey. And we changed the dialogue of her story to one of empowerment and strength. And she now is soaring and knows what to do and knows how to engage and is just a firecracker. But that's pretty much my story. And I'll just interject really quickly with being pregnant and having scoliosis and having the rods fused to my spine. People often wonder what that's like because you have all this abdominal weight and then how it's going to impact on your spine. I personally had no problems. I had a C section. My daughter was born in Germany and I said, you're not touching my spine with an epidural because I didn't know how much they knew about my spinal surgery. But everything was fine and I'm still fused and it's 30 plus years, no pain. I pretty much train every day and with the mace and, and I get to train people if they're open to it with the mace. And if they're not, then we use other modalities. But that's my, that's my story in a nutshell.

Oh my gosh. There's so many different things I want to talk about. You brought up some really awesome things. So first of all, I just want to acknowledge that it is so amazing to be part of the journey. That and watching you really inspire and motivate and help people who really feel. And I can't speak from experience or from, from experience because I've never had a scoliosis. Scoliosis or a fused spine. But I have had those moments of feeling like I'm never going to be able to move again. So watching you being able to inspire and help people feel hope when they've otherwise feel hopeless is truly incredible. And part of what I think makes your work essential in the fitness industry space because most people really think of fitness as a very vain and very aesthetic experience when the truth is that it really does a number for your mental health when you're not able to move. And so it's just been amazing to watch you be part of that. So I just have a couple of. And really facilitate that, facilitate the pathways for that. So I want to just ask you some clarifying questions. First of all, what brought you to being a trainer? How did you go from being a deciding, like, what were you doing before you were a trainer where you were like, no, forget this, I'm turning 40, I'm changing my life. Like, what happened? What was that decision like?

Well, in Germany I had a desk job. And if you've got a spinal fusion or if you have any back problems or you don't, you know what sitting does, right? And in Germany I had a desk job. And then I came back to the States and I worked at a doggy daycare and then I had another desk job and I was like, ew, I can't stand this. And, and it was basically like when I, you know, like I said, when I turned 40, I, I signed up with a trainer. And, and, and I loved that I was able to just get strong and I saw how weak I was, right? Because even like as women, upper body strength, I couldn't do a push up. I was on the Smith machine at like the highest level and I was like doing these little micro push ups and I was like, okay. And I, and I, and I gained weight and I was like, I don't want this. This is, I walked by myself in a window and I looked and I was like, who is that, right? And I said, I, I need to change. And that's where it started. And then I said, if I can do this. And I got to a number that I wanted to be at, which is so often the case in the personal training world, right? People want to be lean, they want this, they want that. And I did that. And I was like, okay, this is cool. But I still want more, you know, I still want more. And that's kind of where it started. And it just kept going. And, and you know, I had the opportunity to work with some amazing people and just learn so much more about the function of the body and the dynamics. And what I also learned is that we were all broken in some way. You know, we all had some kind of something going on and that kind of just, it really exploded from that. And it wasn't about weight anymore. It wasn't about weight and it wasn't about what I was eating and what I wasn't eating because I still kept eating what I wanted to eat. I just didn't eat the amounts that I was Eating. So it just, you know, that was the beginning stage of it and. And I just kept moving forward. I just kept moving forward and it's just, it's an amazing journey, you know, and it doesn't stop. Yeah.

So cool. So can you take us to the Pilates experience? Because there was something that you said in there that in your story that I'm curious to dive a little deeper on. You were talking about, you know, being fused in term, you know, and saying that, like, you wanted to have access to your core and feel normal.

Right.

So can you tell us a little bit about, like, the experience of Pilates? Like, how are you still using Pilates in your practice? How are you using Pilates? And how are you navigating that sense of wanting to feel strong but feeling limited?

So with Pilates, there are certain moves that there's a movement, specifically, it's called a mermaid, right? And it's just a lateral stretch over. And I was like, I feel normal. I'm barely moving, but I feel normal. And so that was one thing. But specifically to dealing with the core, there's a whole series in the mat, Pilates that targets the core and the deep seated core muscles, not just, you know, the superficial ones. And I was able to do those in a way where I could still feel, quote, unquote, the burn. And I didn't have to. I didn't have to and I couldn't, I couldn't curve my spine. So it's all lying down on your back, right? And just extending your arms up above, lowering your legs, doing something called the lower lift, or doing in the training world, bicycles, but then adding a little extra touch to it to increase the burn and to do it in a way that I was able to. Because if you're to do it with your mobility, I can't, I can't. So, like, I can do a plank. But for instance, if you're fused, some people are fused into their, into their pelvis. So how do you tuck your hips under? You can't, right? So you have to find a way. And Pilates gave me that. So sometimes I will. With clients, I will use the ab series I did not use as a warm up, but the leg series can be used as a warm up just to firing the glutes because you're lying down on your side. You can be comfortable if you put a towel under you based on the location of your ribs and how it feels. But sometimes things are used as a warm up or just spine stretch forward is a nice way to release the back, it's kind of like a pike or also a downward dog to help lengthen the spine. Those are things. And even if with a Fusion, I find that I can still create that lengthening. And the hamstrings are then lengthening as well, because you're reaching forward in a spine stretch forward. It's a gentle stretch on my spine that is not going to hurt in any way. There's ways in which you can modify that if you have to sit on a yoga block or roll up a towel or bend your knees, but still to get that feeling of lengthening gently. So, yeah, yeah, I mean, that's cool.

So now, how did you get introduced to the maze? Like, what brought that? I know why you love it, but how did you find it?

So the mace I found on Instagram. There's somebody, a couple of people that I. Well, at the time, I think I followed one person, Kels Bells, 88, and she was using this thing called a mace and Agata. And I was like, I kind of want to try this. And she lives in Connecticut, and she was coming to New York, doing a workshop with. It was herself. And one of the, in my opinion, top people who do this, who has been doing it for a very long time, named Paul, and he lives in Australia. And they were coming to New York and they did this workshop. So I was like, I'm going to try this. I don't know if I can do it, but I'm going to try it and I'm going to sign up. And. And I did. And it was weird. I was like, I don't. Like, I'm swinging this thing around behind my head and it's. It's metal. And what. You know, like, I don't. This is. I've never done this. And. And. And that was. I did that workshop with them, and I spent the whole day with them. And I really got to know the whole process behind it and what it's about and the meditation process behind it as well, because there is a meditative space that it brings you to. And that was it. And I did it with them. And then I've worked with other people along the way. Rick Brown and another guy named. I call him Primal 6 out on the West Coast. But that was the introduction, and I didn't really know anything about it. And I thought, you know, in the training world, we always want to increase our knowledge. We sign up to do certifications. And I thought, this is something that I can try and maybe I can use it with my clients. I Didn't know. And it just. That was the beginning stage, and it's. It's gone that much further. And, you know, people often say that when you train with the mace, you look like a badass, but it's like. But it's so not about that. Mm. Yeah, it's just not, you know, I. It's. There's a whole holistic process of the mace and the gada, and it demands you. Right. You've got, like this. If you're using a gada, it's concrete with a long stick. Or if you're using a mace, you're swinging steel.

Yeah.

It demands respect. And I cannot, for me, personally, I cannot. I'm going to choose the word accept that it looks like something that's badass, because I don't see it that way at all. Yeah, you know, I. It's. It gives me the freedom to move in ways that I can't.

Yes, yes. And. And can you share with us a little bit of, like, not only have you done that for yourself, you also help your clients do that when they feel like, you know, they can't move. So can you share with us a little bit of, like, what that experience is like for them? Like, when you're working with your clients, what are some of the things that they talk about that they share with you that. That the mace has really helped them move through?

Well, I have. So in the membership, we. So where there's a group of us and it's. We meet every week and we're fused and one. One person in the membership, she shared a couple of different things. She's a cellist, and she has said that her posture has gotten better. Her range of motion prior to training with the Mace was limited. And since she's been training with the Mace, her range of motion has increased and she doesn't have any upper back pain. And she shared with us a while ago that her mother said to her, she's even standing differently. And I heard that, and I was like, it doesn't get any better than that. You know, it doesn't get any better than that. And somebody else has said she's dance phobic and she's born with scoliosis. She's swinging the mace now in ways that you just kind of. You just. You're in awe, you know, and to see. To be a part of that with. With people. And they say that. And there was. I did. I trained with the mace also with a Schroth specialist who is for scoliosis, and she was Even saying, like, it fires your core in ways that you don't even think about. And to hear that from a physical therapist for me, was. Is really. It says it all. And then I worked with somebody who's also fused, who's in Tennessee, and she tried it on and she's like, it fires muscle groups without having to think about it. So I'm, you know, all these people are saying these things to me about their experience, and some are fused, most are fused, some are not. But they're all getting empowerment through training with the mace. And I get to be a part of their journey in that.

Yeah, it's powerful. So I imagine, and I'm going to assume, so correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I imagine that there's a lot of fear around moving, period, when you have scoliosis and when you have a few spine. So what are some of the things that you recommend to people who might be working with someone with scoliosis or people who have scoliosis? How do they navigate through those feelings of uncertainty and trusting their body's ability to move?

If they are working with somebody, then you have to trust the process. But if you're working with somebody, I would say do your research on that person and have patience. You know, nothing happens overnight. I didn't start swinging a mace like I swing it now. That didn't happen overnight. When I started, I swung 10 pounds now or 5 pounds, and now I'm swinging 15 pounds of steel, which might not seem like a lot, but the force of it is very different. But trust, trust the process, have patience and do your research. Because trust takes time and we are embedded in fear. If you're not all, but some can be embedded in fear, and that is really hard to overcome. So I think it's really important that you find somebody who understands your body and whether that person is fused or has scoliosis. Because when I worked in a gym, there are people, you know, I've talked with so many people who have scoliosis, and they have a trainer. And I'm like, do they know? And they're like, they. They didn't know what scoliosis was. And they were like, yeah, no problem. And I'm like, that's a disservice. It's a disservice to the community in anything, you know, and that will. Like, I could go on and on about that, but just do your research. And it's also the responsibility of the professional to say, hey, if this doesn't work, let me help you find somebody else.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

You know, but, but be patient. And I know that patience is the hardest thing, especially when you've had surgery, because the period sometimes post surgery can you, it might take six months for you to be cleared. And now post surgery, you have to learn how to walk again and walk and you have to learn how to get up out of bed. And there's all these things that, you know, it's like having a C section. There's all these things that we think about that we might take for granted that we don't think about. And we're like, oh, man, nobody told me about that.

You took the words right out of my mouth when you were talking about, you need to find someone who understands this because getting out of bed is something that we take for granted all the time. But I'll never forget when I had my cesarean and all of a sudden things that I didn't, that didn't even take conscious thought all of a sudden required all of my attention. And that was, you know, that is something that I never would have thought to, to have, you know, taken into consideration as a movement professional working with people. In fact, I've joked so many times, like, my sweet moms, thank God the bodies are resilient because I can only, I only I just vision all the things I used to do with them and that I've now.

But well, that's the other. Go ahead. Sorry.

That's a perfect example.

So you, so the, the other thing is like with a spinal fusion. Right. And you're pregnant. Right. All those ab exercises that let's say you can do. Yeah, I have to be careful because if I sit up, my stomach can go into a cone. Right. And that we normally have that post pregnancy or we can with the diasterecti. So now, so if you think about, okay, I can't bend my back and I'm going to do, somebody wants to do a crunch or whatever they want to do. You know, you have to be aware of this, of the abdominal wall going into a cone shape. Now you have a trainer who doesn't know. Or I'll say a professional, I'm not going to say a trainer. A professional who doesn't know about scoliosis and who doesn't know about that. And it's like, I, I, I just gave this analogy over the weekend. It's like going to a male gynecologist and them saying, I know how you feel. It's like, no, you don't. No, you don't. And so if you don't, you know, you don't have that. But that's something also. Nobody talks about that. Right. So you're pregnant. We have this just post pregnancy normally, but now it's something to think about. On top of having scoliosis and a spinal fusion diasterecti. So that's another layer of what's happening with the body. Yeah.

The pressure management component, that is something that you have to be thinking about all the time. The pressure of the air is going to go somewhere.

Right. And how do you navigate through that? Right.

Yeah.

You've got to navigate through a rotation of the ribs which then can impact the organs with the curvature of the spine and you can get winded. Or if you have surgery, your spine isn't always completely straight. There might be some curves in there. And then you have, then you get pregnant or you don't and then you have diasterecti. What then?

So now you met, you started to go into some of the things that, you know, someone with a few spine or with scoliosis, they have to manage, like getting out of, up out of bed. What are some of the other things that people don't consider, like, you know, you're going, and you were talking about pregnancy. What are some of the other things that, that your community manages that most people don't realize?

How to pick something up. Yeah, how to pick something up. How to take dishes out of the dishwasher. How do you bend? Right before surgery you might bend, hinging your hips back, back coming straight down. That's not going to work. So now you have to relearn that. And like when I had surgery, nobody taught me that. So I had to pick things up with my toes. And I was able to, I, my hip mobility is still good, but I was able to pick things up with my toes and put them in my hand. But people don't teach you how to bend post surgery. And that is for some people, that can be really hard and really frustrating, you know. And then how do you, how do you bend? How do you pick things up out of, off the floor? How do you carry a bag? How do you carry a bag of groceries? How do you do all the things that you used to do normally? How do you bend over to brush your teeth? Do you have to lean on the sink? How do you do the dishes? Can you do the dishes? Some people can't stand for long periods of time. What about is overhead for some people it can be really hard. It depends on your range of motion. Right. You have to Build that. To be able to put something on a shelf. It. It varies for everybody, but I would say the biggest thing that I have heard the most often is how to pick things up, you know, and then also people. The fear of falling. The fear of falling. And. And there. And you. I mean, I hear the worst of the worst. The rods break. Yeah, the rods break. Then you have to go back in for surgery, and then they have to take the rods out. Or. Or you're. Or there. Or you get infected, and they have to take the rods out. Then you go through the whole psychological aspect of revisiting that and what that means. Yeah. So it's.

I can't even imagine. And I do want to talk about the psychological component, because I know that that is. Those are invisibles that no one ever wants to talk about. But I want. I do want to. And I recognize. I realize I'm asking your opinion. So it's your opinion on the idea of surgery and rods. Like, are there. Are those. Is that 100% necessary? Are there things that people can do? Like how do we navigate whether or not it needs to be, you know, fused with rods or, you know, managing.

Yeah. So there's. There's. There's a couple of different methods that I'm aware of. There's mine, and then there's something called tethering, which is where they just put, I believe it's screws into the spine with wire, so you have more mobility, and they go in laterally, I think, through the ribs. And that's a more modern version. Not everybody is in favor of that. It really depends on the individual. The. The first thing I would suggest is Schroth. And Schroth is a therapy, I think, that came to the states in about 2006, and it's a physical therapy specifically designed for people with scoliosis. And it's from a woman named Katarina Schrost in Germany, and they have an intensive program that they still do there. I think it's like maybe eight weeks, like 10 hours a day. It's super hardcore. But there are specialists who do it here. If anybody is diagnosed, I would suggest that. Because there are orthopedics who will say, you need surgery. Not everybody, but there are ones out there who are like, you need surgery. And my opinion is you don't get to tell me what I need without me doing the research first. I've spoken with people who have scoliosis whose curves are. I think if you're at a 30 degree, it's considered mild. No, 15 is mild. I'm not quite sure which number, but there are people whose curves might be a little more aggressive. And they made the choice not to have surgery as teenagers. Their parents gave them that decision because they said, if we do surgery now, then there's really no going back, but if you want to do it later on down the road, then you have that possibility to do it. So I would say start with physical therapy talk, you know, social media. Thank goodness you're here, because it is a great platform for us to all be in a community and to ask questions, but. But do your research, you know, and their surgery might be for you, and it might not. Nobody can make that decision for you except you. But check out. Check out Schroth. Check out therapists on social media, on Instagram. See if there's any in your state where you are in your country, because I know that that's a whole other. If you go to Europe, it's much harder at times, or even if you go to, like, the Midwest, Schroth is few and far between. But investigate that and talk with somebody and find the navigation system that works for you, and then you can make the decision on which route you want to go.

That's so powerful. You did bring that up like, that. I didn't even consider that. Like, when a teenager is younger, they're still growing and developing. So is this something that, you know, can change in terms of, you know, if they started seeing physical therapy, can they actually change their bone structures?

Well, they can change the curves, so. So I'll give the perfect example of my daughter. Right? When she was diagnosed, it was an accident, and, like, my emotional scale went through the roof, and they wanted to move aggressively with her because of me. So they said, we're gonna set you up with Schroth for three times a week for, like, 12 weeks. And they wanted to put her in a brace. And I was like. I didn't know. I was like, what are you talking about? So her curves at the time were 16, 21. She had an S curve, and she was fitted, and then she did schroff twice a week with the therapist. And then I told the therapist, I want you to record me doing everything, and I want you to cue me doing it so that I know what to do with her. And I want photocopies of everything that you're doing with her so that I understand it. And fortunately, the. The Schroth book is a literal translation from German to English. And living in Germany for seven years, I have. I'm able to Understand it. So we did it. And her curves went from a 1621 to a 169. Okay. And then she was cleared. So they. When the. When they stop growing, the curves generally stay at that place. But, yeah, so we. That was it. We, you know, shross seven days a week for two years, and now she's in college and she knows what to do. And she still even implements some of those things into her routine, because it's not like, do it now. Stop. Right. You have to continue the process. Was she feeling any pain when she. When it was found? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She. Because she had fallen, and she was complaining that her ribs kept hurting her. So I said, okay, let's go get an X ray. And I saw in the X ray the curve. And I said to the guy, I said, her spine is curved. And he said, yeah. And I said, what do you know about that? He's like, well, you got to talk to your doctor. I was like, well, let me tell you, I know about it. And that was it. And that was it. So. Yeah. And that. That component. And she. She had even said she didn't like the therapy. She had to lie down on a foam roller. She didn't like any of it. And at one point she said to me, mama, I want to have surgery. And I said, no, you don't. No, you don't. You know, and she was like, I don't want to do this. And I said, you don't have a choice. But I said, this is. You know, we're in this together. Yeah. And I mean, you saw. You saw. And. Yeah, and anybody that's a parent, you know, you see your kid in pain and they just are doing something, you just break down in tears, and your heart just hurts, and you're scared, and you have to hold that fear behind because you got to be strong for them. So. But she did it, and she's a rock star now, so. Good.

I am curious. Do people find the curve and find scoliosis through pain? Is that typical? Is. How do people usually find it?

So generally what happens is when kids are. I'm not sure if it's middle school or grammar school, there's a toe touch test. Like when the nurses come around and, you know, they do the physical therapy or just check the kids overall health, they will have the kids bend down to touch their toes, and then they can run their finger along the spine, and that's generally where the assessments can start. Sometimes kids are in pain. They might talk about that with their parents, but in my experience, that's where it's generally started. But there are other times where people do that and they find nothing but, like when the kids bend down and the nurses will just run their finger along the spine.

When does scoliosis typically start to show up for people? If they have.

Varies. I mean, it starts. My story started at age nine. Tara's. My daughter started at age 13 or 12. So. But it's generally in the, you know, adolescence, teenage years. But then. Sorry. No, keep going. No, but then people have discovered it when they're adults, so it really varies.

Is it genetic? Is there. Or let me rephrase. Is there a genetic component or is there not enough research?

Yeah, we don't know. There's. Some people will say one thing. Some people say it just kind of happens, you know, I mean, I'd be interested to see if my parents have it. My dad had two herniated discs. That was it. My mom, Nothing so interesting. But my daughter has it, so I don't know. Yeah, that is interesting.

It is. And it'll be interesting to see as time goes on and more research is done in the. In the industry. It'll be interesting. It'll be interesting to see what comes later.

Yeah. And the. The. The amazing thing is that it's still continuously growing. Right. Like, we will. It could go this way. It could go this way. I mean, I remember when. When we worked at a gym. Yeah. A co worker of ours showed me the Schroth book, and we Googled it, and I saw these horrific pictures and I was like, I can't. What are you talking about? And then. But looking at those pictures and then seeing how that was a hundred years ago.

Yes.

You know, thankfully, and how it has since evolved. It's a continuing process. And I think. I mean, even from my story, it's gotten so much more. It's gotten so much better. Right. I know. And usually the first thing was, like, surgery, and now it's like, no, you have a choice.

Let's try this first.

Yeah. Right. Right. And so that's. Yeah. I mean, I hope it continues to go that way, but people just ultimately have to do their research and. And reach out. Right. You know, reach out. Because everybody is open for questions, and if they're not, then you have to question why they aren't. Yeah.

People need to feel supported.

Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

So the great segue into. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the psychological component, which I feel like is very. I can only imagine it.

Yeah. Well, it's. It's you know, you've said this. You don't know what you can't see. You can't see my curves. You can't see the. The. The debilitating part that. That leaves. Because I'm limited. Right. Like, I'll give you an example. There was a. Somebody I spoke to. She's a dancer, and she was a professional dancer with abt, and she would go to get fitted for costumes, and they had to redirect the zipper of the costume, or, you know, she would leap into this guy's arms and he would have to hold her a different way. So you think about that, and you're like, but that's hard. That can be hard to really take in. And you feel different, you know, And. And. And what it does. The psychological aspect. So you think about, okay, now I have trouble breathing because the rotation of my ribs are compressing against my heart or my lungs. But you can't see it. Right. So it's like, what's wrong with you? Yeah, but you can't see it. And that's. You know, and I mean, for me, with my story of. It was. It was a very dark time, and I didn't look that much different than anybody else. But what I saw, what I had in my head was, I'm done. Like, my dance career was done, but you couldn't see that. And then over time, I learned to change the language. People are like, you have the best posture. I'm like, I have the best posture of anybody you'll ever meet. You know, like, I can't change this. But, you know, like. But I can't. I can't sit like you can, you know? And, like, if I sit for long periods, it could be really. It could be really dark. Because if I sit for long periods on something hard, then I have trouble getting up. Yes.

And that probably took time to learn as well.

Yeah. Yeah. And. And, you know, like, even when I had my brace, this still is in my head. When I had my brace, when I was in grammar school, the Milwaukee brace, there was a screw on the back, and it would put holes in my T shirts, and I was like. And then I had a belt, but this kid would pull me from the back. Oh. And I couldn't do anything, you know, And I've spoken to him about it, and he has no memory of it. But how do you. How do you let go of that darkness? Because you are vulnerable, Right? You're vulnerable. And how do you. Like, you're pulling me and I'm disfigured in Quotes. But I don't see it. You don't see it. And I'm being tortured through this contraption. And now you're making fun of me because of this contraption. And how do you. That's still dark in my mind. That's still. You know, it's still there.

Of course. And I mean, that. That.

And then.

Plus, you have all the. You know, it's not like anyone's having conversations about it.

No, they're making fun of you at that time. I mean, now it's very different. But at that time, sure.

But like. But, you know, I. I'm thinking about the con. Context of my kids. You know, they're in second in kindergarten, and I wouldn't know if someone had scoliosis in their class because it's not talked about.

Right, right. And they might be wearing a brace, and it's under that shirt, and you don't see it.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, I mean, I, like, just back. Backtrack to my daughter Tara, when she had the brace when she was on the swim team. You know, Like, I just. My. My story is going through my head, and she's got the brace, and now you can have the brace in different colors, and you can have the Empire.

State Building on it.

You can do all this cool stuff. And. And I. She's like, mama, they're gonna look at my brace. And I said, so what? They look at it. I said, let's have everybody write on it. Sign your brace. You know, like, they want to be part of the cool kids. Sign my brace. And you just change the language so that it's not as daunting, because it can be. And it can be very isolating because you can't see it.

Yeah.

And kids can be cruel, and you can't see it. You can't see what's going on underneath the layers so hard. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, now, how do you, as a professional, in addition to your story and in addition to your personal. Your personal investment in. In. In this community, how do you protect your energy and. And stay, you know, and not go down that spiral of despair?

I just keep it real. You know, I keep it real. And, like, I look at what I can do versus what I can't do, because what I can do feels a lot better, because I don't think there's really anything that I can't do. I just do things differently. Yeah. I just do things differently. And, you know, I. Like. Even when we were in the gym, I'm not the person who's going to deadlift £320. I don't want to do that. It's not worth it for me. So am I going to do that? No. But am I going to swing a mace? Yeah, I like swinging. I like swinging a mace. I, you know, I like the movement of this modality flying around, giving me freedom. So I choose to look at what I can do versus what I can't do, because what I can do is much more empowering. I can't bend my back. Okay, move on.

There's so much more that you can do.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's powerful. So what are some of the things. Can you talk to us a little bit more about? You started to. But can you go deeper into some of the things that you love about the mace and why you think this modality is superior for you and for your community?

Because it gives us freedom. It gives us freedom. It gives us, you know, the, the. The feeling of being limitless again, with limitations. The. The respect that it demands, the meditation process that it brings you to. Like, you don't even think about it. Like, when you first start training with the mace, you're like, okay, this is really hard. And this is, you know, I'm getting used to swinging this thing, but now it's like, it just moves. You keep going and keep going, and it's fluid almost. And there's a freedom in that, you know, and, and, and being able to. To do a360, to go into a lunge, to do a chop, to do a 10 to 2 with heavy weight, it's no easy task. And it's. It's just. It's freedom. It's the only way I can describe it. It's freedom. And it's. For me, it's not at all about being a badass, because I think that that's the farthest thing from it. Do I get interesting looks when I walk down the street with it? Sure.

I can only imagine in New York.

Was it great when it was like six feet apart? No problem, you know? No problem. But it's not about that. It's just. It's the. It's the freedom of movement and the freedom of expression is the best way that I can describe it. And it's happening with clients, too. They're just. They're moving in ways that they never thought possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So cool.

So, yeah. And it's fun. Like, you bring a bunch of people together. I did it this weekend. People have scoliosis who are fused and they're swinging a mace for the first time. And they are into it. And I'm like, yes.

So fun.

And they're like. And they're doing something. It's called a just. It's a tricep extension. Right. But the elbows are up in the air and that's called a bullhorn. So you have the weight of the mace, of the globe of the mace shifting behind you with your elbows up. And they're like, yeah, I feel it. And it's like you're doing the bullhorn and it's like they're just doing that and they're like, oh my God. And now you're bringing it over your shoulder, so you're pushing it away and pulling it in. And the demand of the core strengths to do that, whether you're holding like somebody was holding a 5 pound mace, another person was holding his 10 pound mace, another person was Holding a 7 pound mace and another person was holding like a 12 pound mace. And they were like, I feel it. And I was like. So it's. Yeah, it's just. And it's a good time. Yeah, it's a good time. And I get to be a part of that. It's amazing.

You get to be a part of it and facilitate it.

It's amazing. Yeah. And I, and I will say there are a lot of people out there who swing maces and gaddas, but there is nobody out there. And I don't want to say this to toot my own horn, but I'm going to toot my own horn. I was the first person, I think, who started this in my community and I get to watch people do it. And it's so exciting. So cool. It is. Yeah.

So, Mama T, thank you so much for pouring into me and into the community and I want to be very mindful of your time. So for those of you who want to learn more about mace training, about working with people with scoliosis or maybe even potential, you know, maybe potentially you are interested in learning more about moving with scoliosis. What are some of the best places that I can send them?

So Instagram is super easy. It's. My handle is T number three. F I T T. It's the same on TikTok. And then on Facebook it's fitt number three. And then my website is t number three fitt.com.

Okay, great. And we'll be sure to link all that up in the show notes as well.

Thanks for having me. Yeah.

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