Olympic Lifting, Breathing, and Pain with Dr. Caity Haniver

You're listening to the PT Proffit podcast, episode number 60. Today I'm sitting down with the Barbell Osteo, and we're talking all about Olympic lifting, breathing and pain. Are you ready? Let's get started. Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance and move, package and position their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast. What's up, coach? Thank you so much for joining me for another episode of the PT Profit Podcast, and I'm really excited for today's guest. I'm sitting down with. Okay, we practiced in the episode, but I'm going to have to practice again, and I'm so sorry if I messed it up, but I'm sitting down with Dr. Katie Hanover now. I say it right in the episode, so forgive me if I do not say it right now. And as someone who has a very challenging maiden name, I know how aggravating that can be, but honestly, it just comes from best of intention. So please forgive me, but I'm sitting down with Dr. Katie, which is what I called her also in the episode, who is the owner of the Barbell Osteo. So she is incredibly passionate about the human body and about helping people and specifically helping them maximize their potential in optimizing their health and also their performance goals. So she's been in the industry for over 10 years, which she does share inside of the episode, that she has a very competitive athletic background and she realized there was a big G between the clinicians who worked with athletes and wanted to compete in sports like weightlifting and Olympic weightlifting and crossfitting versus the people who don't. And we actually do talk about this inside of the episode. She's a graduate from RMIT University, a double bachelor degree in health science and applied science, and since she has worked as an osteopath, she's used her knowledge of strength sports and her education to help athletes increase performance in the sport of weightlifting through coaching, mobility, programming, and in addition to that, help other coaches and clinicians in her seminars. So hopefully you're just as excited as I am. So, without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. Hi. Okay, so we've been practicing how to say her name in the green room, so I'm just going to try right now. Welcome to the show Dr. Katie Hannibal. Okay, so that was super formal. Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm super pumped to get into it. I know that you help a lot of people, so I'm really excited for this episode. How are you today?

I'm going well, thank you. How are you? And thank you for having me. I'm stoked to be here.

I'm doing well. This is super fun because it's like 1:00pm Your time, right?

Yeah. Yep. 1:00 clock in Melbourne.

Yeah, it is 9:00pm My time here. We're hanging out. This is fun. So this is a really a special treat because I know our time zones aren't the easiest to coordinate, but I'm really excited to have you on the show. So can you just share a little bit with the audience, a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there?

So I'm an osteopath, so in Australia that is kind of like a physiotherapist with a bit of a combination of chiropractic I suppose. So I'm an osteopath who also is an Olympic weightlifting coach and athlete and I basically work with that population. So people that do barbell sports or want to get into barbell sports or even like a quite high level barbell athletes, weightlifting athletes, as well as just general everyday people that kind of want to get stronger in a way that is sustainable and good for their body without all the downfalls that kind of strength training can sometimes bring upon them.

Oh, I love that. And I'm sure we're going to get into that. So do you work out of a facility right now?

Yeah, so at the moment I'm in a clinic. We're actually in lockdown in Melbourne again, so I'm not working at all today, but I work out of a clinic, which is awesome because I have a massive gym. So I have gym in my facility with all of the toys to play with. And then we obviously have like the treatment room as well, but we've got pretty much everything your heart desires in terms of a gym. And then I also do some online work as well with some of my athletes. So I like program them and coach them remotely and I do some kind of mobility consults for athletes that are coached by other coaches that maybe need like a little bit of things, plugging up their holes in their program.

Amazing. How did you get into that?

I think for myself like being a weightlifter at quite a high level. I was always having some kind of injury niggle pain issue that I was trying to deal with. And I felt like I kind of went to a million people and no one really spoke my language and no one really kind of could get to the bottom of what I needed. And it caused me to kind of spend a lot of time chasing my tail and trying to rehab things and maybe moving in the direction that I didn't need to go. So as I was studying osteopathy and kind of realizing that there was like a big gap in the market for people that understood what weightlifting was, it kind of started to drive me in that direction to try and be like that person that I guess I needed when I was coming up in my athletic career. And then Covid last year kind of shook things up a bit, I suppose. We had a lot of time in Melbourne where we were locked down and we weren't like, no gyms were open and no clinics were open. So I started kind of trying to figure out how else I could help the community, what else did people need? And that's when I started going back to more like online coaching and giving people options to increase their ranges of motion or get out of pain without needing me to be there and touch them, and also without me needing them to have equipment like getting them to just focus on breathing and position and things that maybe a lot of trainers will look at as basic. But a lot of people kind of like skip over them when they start doing a high level barbell sport. So taking a lot of people back to basics and seeing if I can help them get out of pain that way, I love that.

Okay, now you said for you specifically, you had pain, where was your pain and were you competing at a high level? Like, were you in the, in the pro sports and dealing with this pain?

Well, weightlifting, unfortunately, in Australia is not a huge sport. It's a pretty small community. But I was, I did compete for Australia in 2017, and I've been kind of in the national top three, top four, top five the last five or so years. So relatively high level for what we have over in Australia. So I basically can just have a laundry list of all the things that I struggled with. But basically every body part you can think of a lot of back pain, a lot of shoulder, knee pain, posterior rib pain, wrist pain. It kind of just got a bit crazy by the end of it. I think most things hurt a lot more than things didn't hurt. So it definitely drove me to try and figure out why that was happening. And seeing people around me in the same position and realizing that it doesn't actually have to be this way. We can still perform and lift huge weights without feeling awful all the time.

Yeah. Now you know, just for me, right? Just for a little clarity, for me, when you talk about osteo, it's called osteopathic. Say it again one more time.

Osteopathy.

Osteopathy. Okay, can you clarify just for me, because I'm sure there are people in the audience that know this, but for me, what is that specifically and how is that different than, you know, a typical physiotherapist that you would find in Australia?

So we're basically like in the US you have DOs or doctors of osteopathy and we're kind of like a semblance of that. We're not a full on physician. So like a medical doctor or anything like that. We can't prescribe drugs or do surgery or anything like that. But we do get the same medical training. So we go through very, very similar training in terms of like organ systems and lymphatic systems and circulatory systems and understanding all of that. First, before we kind of get the musculoskeletal stuff pushed on top as well as the rehabilitation stuff as well, then we've got like psychology and those kind of things incorporated as well. So I guess in Australia or osteopath. Osteopath in Australia versus like a physio is mainly just that we've got a bit more medical training and a little bit more of a broad lens to look at the body. We look at organ systems, we look at overall health versus just where it hurts and kind of helping the one spot that it hurts at.

I see. Now what are some of the things that you do for your clients? Like what are. I mean, and specifically, you know, when they come to you, where are they? What's their level of pain?

Essentially it does depend and it kind of. Most people come because they're sick of hurting somewhere or they have a pretty significant range of motion deficit. So for weightlifting we need to be able to get into some pretty crazy positions. So it's the snatch and the clean and jerk, basically a full overhead squat position as well as like the barbell being up overhead. And for a lot of people those positions are not attainable. So they either come in with those goals trying to get into those positions without pain, or, or they're able to execute them, but it hurts as they do it. So there is kind of varying levels. I don't see a lot of acute kind of injuries like someone that's dislocated an elbow or done something during training. It's more this like chronic, ongoing, accumulative kind of pain. And someone comes to me when they're just like, I'm sick of it and I want to do something about it. I'm sick of ignoring it. I'm sick of being told by my coach that this is just part of weightlifting.

I think too that that's where we get into a lot of trouble, is that we have these well meaning coaches that just that, you know, they, we tend to be the first line of defense because people will come and see a physical therapy or come and see a personal trainer before they're going to deal with pain. Like, I know for me, I'll just be like, oh no, you know, we'll, we'll work it out. It'll, it'll figure itself out. And then trainers just not aren't sure yet how to manage that or how to bring the network of people close to them so that they work on this client.

It's hard I think, because like trainers obviously are there to help people move. And sometimes people come to a trainer and they're like, I haven't moved in 20 years, I just need to lose some weight and move again. So it would be normal for that trainer to be like, okay, you're probably going to be in a little bit of pain because we're just trying to undo a bunch of sedentary time. I guess the difference with my particular community of people is that these people are normally already active. So they have coaches and trainers who have well meaning intentions and they want to get like the patient to where they want to go. But sometimes the coach or the trainer just is missing something. And that's kind of where we can be really useful because we can kind of zoom out, look at the person as a whole, look at all the other aspects of their life and kind of start to like fill in a few pieces, direct the coach or trainer as to where maybe we want to try and strengthen or kind of giving them some intervention as well.

I love that. And so, you know, I'm curious just a little bit about what your perspective is in terms of pain and pain management. Because I know that it tends to be one of like, you know, for lack of a better word, but a trigger word in terms of, you know, either coaches will feel like not, it's not, you know, don't worry about it, we'll push through, or they feel like, oh, this person's so delicate, we can't do anything so how is it that you work with your coaches that you. That you work with to kind of navigate the waters of pain and what is in their scope of practice and what is not?

It's a tricky one. And I guess, like, I try to get people just to meet the athlete where they're at. Like, someone is in pain, they're experiencing their own experience. And it's hard for us as coaches or clinicians to kind of know what that is. Like, we. We can only really take it on face value. And there's definitely coaches that will just be like, oh, that's just part of it. You just have to push through it. Or they encourage that. Then there's the complete opposite that kind of like, wrap people up in cotton wool and be like, oh, this is remotely uncomfortable for you. Let's not do it. And I think part of rehab or, like, really just getting stronger is doing things that we're bad at and exposing our body to, like, a novel stimulus so that we can improve and get better in those ranges of motion or those positions. And I think when it comes to pain, the interesting thing is, like, a lot of people will go to a chiropractor or a manual therapist and be like, hey, push on the sore spot. Like, it hurts there. And I want you to push on it because it feels so good. And yet when we come from a perspective of movement of like, okay, it hurts a bit to take it up overhead, but we're going to do it slowly, and we're going to do it with some nice calm breathing and a little bit of load. And someone's like, no, that hurts. I can't do that. It hurts. And it's like, well, what is the difference really, from you going to someone who's pushing on that point and making it sore, but you're, like, accepting of that versus leaning into an exercise that might be mildly just uncomfortable, but being terrified of that, because they associate that exercise with pain, meaning damage. So I try to get everybody to step back and be like, just because it hurts doesn't mean there's something actually going wrong. It could just be that that particular area of your body is sensitized or that particular movement, your brain and your nervous system isn't quite accepting of it just yet. So we need to slowly step you through the processes to get your body more comfortable with that. So pain in that regard is something that is probably a good guiding post for us. We know a little bit of discomfort. Maybe we're on the right track with that. Maybe we should be exposing you to a little bit of that versus keeping you in this very safe box where nothing hurts ever, but you can't do half of the things you'd like to do.

Oh, that is amazing. And I had never thought of it like that because we all go to, you know, massage therapists and we're like, just press on this as hard as you possibly can and lean into that. But then the slight, you know, you know, sensation of pain and discomfort, that's, you know, that's really, that's really insightful. I hadn't thought of it like that. So I'm curious, can you walk us through a little bit more about your process in terms of how you really assess a client's level of discomfort versus their pain and what's a little bit of your process to help get people back into their better ranges of motion?

I guess it comes back to kind of understanding the person and their story and like their goals. So especially with weightlifting athletes, there's kind of like two buckets in my head. There's someone that loves the sport, loves the movements, wants to be able to do these movements, but also wants to be able to play with their kids, climb the stairs, go to work and not be in pain. So that's like kind of person A, and I think of that person as like someone who's chasing health, but they just love the movements. Then you've got like elite level people that come to you and they're like, I want to make a world team. I need to snatch double body weight, I need a squat triple body weight. And their kind of bucket is more performance. So there's trade offs that they might have to make in order to achieve that performance because of the highly specific programming that they'll probably have to follow. So once I've kind of distinguished where you are at in terms of that, whether you want to be that person that's going for an Olympic team versus the mom who just loves snatching because she feels powerful and like a badass when she does it. I then can kind of like progress you on from there because there's so many people that want to be column A, they want to be health, they want to feel great, but they're training like column B. And if I, like, if that's the first thing we need to rectify. So I kind of will dive deep into their programming, chat to their coach if I need to, to try and get a good sense of what they're doing, what we're working on and kind of where we're at, and then from there, take them through a bit more of a musculoskeletal assessment. So that'll be like ranges of motion of different areas, how they breathe, like how they organize themselves under gravity, like when they're standing, what do they look like, where does the body weight go when they're laying on the floor, how can they control themselves? And then I also kind of dive a little bit deeper into the general health habits. So like, are you sleeping? Are you feeling well? Do you have pre training meals and post training meals? Are you hydrated? Do you have someone in your life that you feel safe to talk to? Because all of these needs, like really will drive how sensitive our nervous system is to things like pain. So if we're like taking care of like all of the, we're doing all the foam rolling and we're doing all the mobility, but we're sleeping four hours a night, we don't eat, we hardly drink water, and we're always fighting with our partner. I kind of feel like anything that I give you is going to be redundant. I can give you like the most beautiful mobility program with heaps of like loaded positional stuff, but if you don't get your basics right, then it's kind of almost like pointless and I'm just wasting your time. So I really try and A, make sure where they are, who they are and understand that. B, kind of make sure the basics are being nailed and that they are taking care of themselves as a human first and an athlete second. And then from there we'll dive deep into like, what injuries have you had as a kid? What injuries have you had as an adult? How do you spend your time? Are you like a tattooist, that side bent and rotated over a bed all day? Because your body's going to tell me that story and then you want to be in like this bilateral position where you need to be perfectly symmetrical, which doesn't exist, but you know what I mean? Like trying to be symmetrical. And you've just spent nine hours prior to coming to the gym in this like one sided rotated position. So we kind of have to understand like, where are you? Where do you exist in space? How does your body self organize? And once we've got that picture, we can start to give your body the little things that it doesn't quite have at this stage. And I think giving yourselves like almost like micro doses of positional stuff that you previously didn't have makes a massive difference when you try and get under load so good.

Now you talked about so many things, so let's pick up one first, right? You know, you mentioned that a lot of people in column A, so you know your mom that feels like a badass when she's snatching train, like, column B. And I'm just curious, from your perspective, does that usually. Where does that come from? What causes person A to train like person B?

I don't know if it's, like, societal pressure to kind of conform to this, like, fit chick ideal or that people just subscribe to this idea that, like, more is more is more. Like, I want to get better at snatching, therefore I need to snatch seven times a week. And I really think, like, I have conversations with patients all the time, and I'm like, the gains you're making in the gym happen in your bed. And they're like, what? What do you mean? Like, that's crazy. Like, well, really, like, we're doing an exercise and you're. And you're developing skill and you might be building muscle, but if you don't go home and, like, have that downtime and get into a parasympathetic state and start the recovery process, like, that's all redundant. And I think with mums especially, like, there's so much on their plates. They're trying to be, like, an amazing parent, an amazing partner, and then have some space for themselves to, like, exercise and look after their health. So it's almost like no one has an off switch. In my experience, a lot of, like, the women I work with, they're just running around trying to tickle these boxes, but they don't ever even think to consider the box of, like, rest or, like, take some time for me or, you know, tune out for a minute and just kind of get back into a more grounded state. So I don't know where it comes from, whether it's something that people are just trying to do because to them, they think that's what they should do. And maybe the education piece is what's missing, but it's an interesting one. And I think, like, as soon as we empower women to train smart versus, like, always training super, super hard, that's when they start to get the results that they're looking for.

I love that. And I think for me, you know, as I think back on my experience, both as a trainer and as a client, right. I feel like. And as a mom, specifically in that bucket that you're talking about, I feel like there's a pendulum. I feel like you don't often find people in the middle. You either have the people that are like, the crossfit rider dies orange theory, you know, every single day. Or you have, well, that are like, oh, I just want to roll around on the ground and. And I don't want to, you know, I need to do my mobility work. I need to just stretch. And you're like, wait, but you're not getting any work done.

Yeah.

Right. I feel like there tends to be people that live on both sides of the spectrum, and it can be hard to navigate that middle.

And I think the middle is like, where we should be, really. Like, a couple of days of column a couple of days of column B is like, what is it? Like, a good recipe for balance. But as you say, like, a lot of us don't really have that introspection as to what we're doing. We're just kind of doing what we're doing and doing our best without really having that education behind us or the coach to push us in the direction that we. That we want to go to kind of achieve our goals, you know.

And what's interesting too, you know, as we're talking about this, is that I tend to find, you know, in my years, you know, as I'm growing and as I'm working with people, is that we tend to compartmentalize buckets of people in terms of, like, we've got the trainers and the coaches here, and then we've got the gen pop people here. But what I'm realizing is that trainers function, you know, they're humans, too, and they tend to do the same types of things that, you know, your gen pop people do. You know, they're trying to run a business, they're running themselves into the ground, working, you know, training session, day in, day out, day, night, you know, they're hustling for clients, and they're not, you know, they tend to not prioritize their health either.

Yeah.

So I'm curious, you know, do you, you know, or, you know, they're either, you know, they're, you know, stressed too hard or they're running themselves to the ground and not really, like, spending time on the rest.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. Like, trainers need a trainer, in my opinion. So if you're a coach, you should have a coach. And if you're, like, really serious about practicing what you preach and like, having a community that looks up to you in a. In a respect way, because they see you talking the talk and walking the walk at the same time. Like, you should have someone that you're accountable to, because as trainers or therapists or whatever, like, we're so good at giving advice and being like, you do this, you do that. Like, bossy people, type A people that are great at, like, helping other people see where they're lacking. But we need that too. Like, we need someone to zoom out for us and be like, hey, did you realize that, like, you've skipped training four days this week to fit in a client or to fit into a patient? And, like, I'm terrible for it. Like, I myself will be like, oh, I'll just pop someone else in here and I just won't go to the gym tonight, I'll go for a walk instead. And then you zoom out one month later and you've done eight sessions when you'd normally do 25. Like, it's a slow creep. But if we don't have someone like, checking in on us and being like, hey, mate, like, are you, are you really doing what you should be doing right now? We can really easily fall into those human traps as well. And I think trainers think that because we are trainers or we are therapists, that we should know it all and be able to do it all and program for ourselves and have all the answers for ourselves. But it's so hard to be someone else's point of call as well as check in with yourself on the regular.

I agree, and I think too that coaches are specifically designed to see which you can't see. So you know, you're watching someone's position on a squat. Who's watching your position on a squat? How many times have you thought, you know, filmed yourself and thought, oh, yeah, I'm nailing this right now, I'm totally going in for tempo. It's not a two second pause down there when you watch it back, right? So it's, it's so important. And I also, you know, I. You bring up a good point when it comes to, you know, ego essentially, for lack of a better word. But we tend to feel like we need to be the best or we need to be the top. And somehow it means that if you're being coached that you think you are missing something or that you don't know something, which is actually one of the worst things that you could. Because coaching is just going to expand your, your experience, your life. And if you. And for me, the way that I operate is that if you are selling coaching, you better walk your talk. You don't need to be shredded, you don't need to look a certain way, but you need to practice what you preach.

Definitely. And I think coaches like having a Coach enables you to get another perspective on things as well. And, like, some of the most amazing things I've learned have been from having a coach who's taken me through some drill or program, some nasty workout. And I've been like, that was awesome. That was so cool. And then it, like, trickles down into your patients or clients or whatever. Like, we're all kind of, like, continually building a community where coaches coach coaches, and we learn from each other. And we have a point of call to be like, hey, like, I'm struggling with this position. And what do you think about that and helping each other versus looking at each other in, like, oh, that's my competitor. I'm not going to pay for them, or whatever. That may be, like, having this mindset of, like, let's lift each other up, because we want everybody to be benefiting from coaches doing, like, great coaching versus trying to tear each other down and being like, oh, no, I can't help her because she's over the next town and she's got some of my clients. Like, I just think building each other up is so important.

Oh, I know the rest of the world is there for us, to tear us down, so I'm all for that, too. And also, Tara, I don't know what it's like over there, but over here, you know, my certification, I learned from reading a book and, you know, for us, and a certification, I'm not. I'm not. I didn't go to, like, a med school, you know, or trained to be a doctor. And so there's no practical component. And nobody learns how to swim from reading a book so you can get certified. And now you are going to go, you know, train human bodies. I mean, oh, my gosh. I've said this before on the podcast, and I'll say it again, but thank God human bodies are resilient. Because when I first became a trainer.

I feel like if you don't look back at your programs from, like, three years ago and cringe, then you're not growing, like, quick enough. You know what I mean? Like, you should be looking back and being like, oh, my God, did I do that? Like, taking enough personal development and education courses that each year I'm like, whoa, this is new. This is how I'm going to approach this. And then you slowly get this lens of multiple ways to go after one problem versus, I guess, taking a certification and being like, oh, I know it all. I'm going to stay stagnant and continue to just do the same stuff. And then, yeah, You've got a lot of poor, poor broken bodies in your wake because maybe, maybe you haven't leveled up and started like to realize the way that the body really should be moving.

So can you talk a little bit about, you know, what are some of the things that you know when you look back at your stuff and how you train? Like what are some of the things that you, you know, have learned in your career?

I was like, I took, I took myself way too seriously as an athlete from the get go. I've always been an athlete, so I was very, very disciplined and very regimented. So I was like at some stages of my career doing 10 sessions a week as well as working a part time job and studying osteopathy. And I'm, and I'm the one here preaching about sleep and food, but like there was not a lot of sleep and food going on. So even just some of my movement patterns, like I subscribe to the idea that in weightlifting we wear like a heeled shoe. So I was like, oh well, I'm always going to be wearing a heeled shoe, so why do I need to be able to squat well without it? Just like all of that kind of idea of like, oh well, I can wear a belt, so why would I need to spend time not wearing it? I can like wear wrist guards. So why would I ever try and get stronger wrists without wrist guards? So it was very narrow minded. There wasn't a lot of thought about longevity and it was very like much that more, more, more idea, if I work harder, if I do more, I'm going to be better. And I think like I basically had to run myself into the ground multiple times and dig myself back out of the ground multiple times to realize that that wasn't really the best way to be moving or training or taking care of myself. There was literally zero space for anything other than like weightlifting and sleep and work.

Yeah, yeah. And that's hard. I get that. Now you also mentioned too that you know, speaking of your athlete life and also your, you know, awesome moms that you work with, have you, you know, I feel like Olympic weightlifting specifically is very different than the gen pop people. And when you go into like, you know, gyms and you see trainers, strength training, like you're not going to get a lot of people like excited about how to, you know, barbell snatch. Right. So are you working with people that you have to buy, create that, buy in or they are already invested in the movement?

Yeah, I get a lot of people that have been introduced to the movement by CrossFit. So the, like, the requirements for the movements are very, very high. And in CrossFit circles, like this is on a bash on CrossFit. But just my, my observation is that there's no like, prerequisite for someone to get into that position. It's just like, if you can, you can. Great, let's load you up until you can't. And there's no like range of motion assessment or like injury history taken. It's just kind of like, go for it, have fun. And everyone kind of like falls in love with the movement because it's a pretty cool, empowering thing to throw a weight up over your head and feels great until you've been doing it for a little while and it starts to hurt. So I tend to see people that have been subscribing to it, they love it, they think it's fun, but they're like, A, I can't do it heavy enough, B, it hurts me. Or C, it looks real ugly. And for some reason they're like, I want to fix one of those things. And some people like, it looks real ugly. And that's fine. They're happy with that because they're like, oh, well, I'm doing it. But you can see them, they're like teetering on the knife's edge of like, they just push one more rep too far, like the whole thing's gonna just fall down.

Yeah. I mean, and I have such a love hate with CrossFit because the love is that, you know, they created a space for people to fall in love with, with fitness and for women specifically to love lifting. Right. And I know that it's not like a woman specific sport. That's not what I'm saying. But for so long you have, you know, people and women specifically, like, I don't want to get bulky, I don't want to touch weight, you know, and then you have CrossFit and it created a community and it created people falling in like everyday people falling in love with movement. And like you said, empower them to know and believe in themselves to do it. So, you know, it's such a love hate relationship. Because on the one hand that's incredible, but on the other hand, you've also got those cons of like, you know, just anybody can throw up, you know, 15 above their head. It's terrifying.

I think of CrossFit as kind of like a gateway drug to like barbell sports. You know, like, it's, it tends to be the way that a lot of people get Introduced to either weightlifting or powerlifting or even, like, strongman, strong woman kind of components. And, like, for that, I'm incredibly grateful because, like, that's how I found weightlifting. Like, I was doing CrossFit, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna go to regionals. Wow. And then I was, like, running? No. So then I had someone be like, hey, you know, you can just do the weightlifting. And I was like, what? This is insane. So that's how I. And, like, so many of the people that I weightlift with, that's their story as well. So I think, like, I'm super grateful at Fuller in that. In that way. And, like, as a young female who found it really young, it gave me so much confidence in the shape and the body. Like, that I had, like, it was cool to be strong. It was awesome to have a big butt and big legs and big arms. And, like, that made you a badass. And you were comfortable to wear short shorts and take your top off. And that was all cool. Like, I didn't feel like I had to disappear. Whereas prior to CrossFit, as a gymnast and as, like, a teenager, it was always like, be smaller, be smaller, be smaller. So for me, it was like, a super powerful time in my life because I was able to just be like, okay, like, this is actually, like, what I am is enough. What I am is healthy, and I can do all these cool movements, even though they were probably pretty ugly at the time, but I could still do these cool movements and feel super, super empowered by it and have women around me doing the same. So I thought that was, like, one of the most important things for me, like, as a trainer and as an osteopath. That was one of the times in my life that I think really shaped who I am now.

Yeah, that's amazing. And CrossFit does have the ability to do that. And I'll just say, you know, you don't see that very often in your, you know, group fitness classes at Crunch Jam, which is like our.

That's our.

One of our local gyms around here. Okay, so now you also work with other coaches, and you teach that now in your work. Are you helping them become better coaches, or are you just teaching them how to move better?

I think a combination. Like, I'm trying to help people see the things they probably were already seeing, but apply it, I guess, in a weightlifting context. So for the seminars that I run, they're for coaches, but also for athletes and, like, therapists, even that free people in the weightlifting. CrossFit, strong woman kind of space and just try and help them understand, like, the patterns that we see in people's bodies. And because the movements in weightlifting are so repetitive and the same, a lot of similar patterns will kind of start to pop up. So you kind of see that like rolled forward pelvis or anterior tilt people call it that. You might see a rib cage that's a bit flared. So you see someone with a pretty big lordosis or like curve in their lower back, and that kind of affects the way their hips and their shoulders move. So if we can start to see where they exist to begin with, then we can start putting interventions in our programming or in the athlete's warm up that can help kind of get them in a better position to then begin their lifts. Yeah, go on, keep going, keep going. So I think, like, that can be really powerful because you've got someone that's feeling like a little bit of discomfort and you can be like, okay, let's give you some of this positional stuff that maybe my normal program isn't. And they're like, wow, that discomfort's gone completely. Because we've just introduced some variability into their system. So rather than being really extended all the time, where you would be if you were doing a snatch or a clean and jerk, we bring them into a little bit of flexion and they're like, oh, that feels so great. And then they're able to complete their workouts without that kind of niggling, painful feeling.

So getting them into the right position can give them instant relief, is what you're saying.

Oh, huge. Hugely, instant relief. Like, people can come in with like eight years of lower back pain and you put them in a position and they breathe there and they squeeze a block and they activate some muscles and then they're like, oh, my God, like, it's gone. And it's not always like that, but I think it's like that often enough for me to kind of see that this is really valuable stuff and that it can help a lot of people. And it's not always going to be straightforward and easy. But because I feel like I intimately know the weightlifting community and the positions and the. And the program that they would have to follow, I feel like then I can very easily give them like the little things that they're not experiencing and sprinkle it into their programming or their warm up enough for them to be like, almost tricked into just feeling better.

Yes. Because that was kind of going to lead to one of my next questions, which is, do you feel like when you're working with that high level of an athlete or performer, even if it's your everyday mom, do you have to create a sense of vine to get them to lay on the ground and breathe and squeeze a block. How do you get them?

Yeah, I think sometimes when they're seeking your help, they've got a level of buy in already, especially if it's online because they're like, okay, I've tried manual work, I've tried chiropractic, tried needling, whatever, and I'm not feeling any different. So let's try this. I think what I do tend to see is when people are in acute pain, so they've had something that's just happened and they're like, oh, it's so sore. They're very, very likely to kind of do what you're asking of them. And then once the pain starts to settle, it becomes like more of a, like, okay, we've got to keep checking in on this. But the other thing is like I ideally with the people that I'm working with, they're super strong people. So I ideally like laying on the floor and breathing is something for like the very first session when they're super acute or they just need to learn how to organize their body. And the floor is a really good constraint because gravity is not going to be on them. But like by session 2, 3, 4, they should be up. Like they're using heavy weights and they're in positions and they're breathing in those positions. So they're own those positions. But if I was to just give someone floor based work and then they go snatch a hundred kilos, like the floor based work becomes redundant. I need to load them enough that they get stronger in these positions and they get an exposure to their position through their nervous system without it being like too low level. So it needs to kind of be like challenging enough for them and their nervous system to take it on. And I think that's when they buy into it more because they're like, it's really hard and I suck at it so it must be good for me. I think that's like the psychotic way weightlifters and crossfitters think. It's like I can get your leg twitching because you're just standing on your left side and you haven't experienced that before. They'll be like, whoa, this is crazy. I definitely need to do this. So there's definitely some tricks you can kind of use to get a little bit of buy in if you're struggling. But overall most of these People will seek you out because they either have seen what I'm putting out there content wise and they're interested, or they're like in pain and they're like, okay, I need to try something different.

So you're bringing up two questions for me. Number one was in the seminars that you're running for your clinicians and for your trainers, what are some of the biggest questions that come up over and over again?

I think people like just want to know the why behind breathing and why it's important. Because I think because it's something that can happen automatically without us thinking about it. People don't think about it. How often do you sit there and be like, oh, I'm breathing through my mouth today and I'm breathing way too quick? I think that all the time, but not very many people do. So I think getting them to understand why it's important is the first step. And I always try and introduce at the very beginning of my talks is that breathing and walking are the number one thing that human beings need to be able to do to survive. Evolutionary. We have walked and we have breathed. And they're two movements that as we've become into a more modern society, they're two movements that a lot of humans can't do very well. That's kind of scary. And if you look at that from an athlete perspective, it's like, wow, I can lift all this heavy weight, but I can hardly walk because my pelvis doesn't move and I can hardly breathe very well. I snore, I have sleep apnea, I need a CPAP machine to get through the night. So I think like, just pointing out some of those things are very, very powerful for people, the breathing and the walking. Everyone's like, oh yeah, like that's two things that if, like, if it's like you sprain your ankle and you can't walk, you're like, oh my God, I took walking for granted so much. But people don't realize until you're like really pointing it out to them. And then they're like understanding the power behind being able to do these things really well.

Oh my gosh. I mean, honestly, you just said like 700 things that are so important to me. You know, I'll never forget when I was, you know, after I had my cesarean section, you know, cesarean, I couldn't sit up out of bed. And I literally would say to myself every day, like, please let me just do a kiddible swing. I'll never, I'll never complain again, right? Because we just take for granted the things that come so easy to us. And it's just so important to say that because so many trainers and coaches that I work with under value and underestimate what they are able to do for people because we do it unconsciously without thinking about it, right? So many people like in this, in our circle, right? They're like, oh yeah, breathing. Everybody knows about breathing. Nobody knows about breathing. Nobody knows about it. Nobody say to me, everybody's talking about breathing. And I'm like, well, who's everybody? All 1,000 people of your follower in you're following. Okay, there's 8 billion people in this world. Nobody knows about breathing.

Yeah, yeah. And I think like, it's so powerful because as I said before, like, it happens automatically, but it's the one part of our autonomic nervous system that we can actually consciously control as well. So like, we can't be like, okay, heart beat slower. That doesn't happen, you know, but we can be like, okay, hold your breath. Okay, control your exhale. And that's going to have like far reaching impacts on the rest of your organ systems, your nervous system, your mental health, your mental clarity, like your recovery. Just so many impacts. And it's like everyone's like, oh, what's the best recovery hack? Like, should I get a theragun? Should I get my legs dry needled every night? And you're like, okay, well maybe we just learned to exhale and then inhale again. That's probably the first thing that I would do to get your recovery hack. And because it's not sexy, everyone's like, oh yeah, I can breathe. I'm like, no, you probably can't. And like myself included before I started on this journey and I still struggle. I was not good at a lot of this stuff. And the breathing work has made a massive impact on the pain that I was experiencing. But I've still got a long way to go. Like we're all in this together. We're all kind of, we all suck at breathing. But I think like having these conversations are important because it gives people an opportunity to reflect and then to like try.

Yeah. You know, it's also too. Is that for me at least I had a singing, I have a singing background, so we're always talking about breathing. And pelvic floor was introduced to me back then in a singer's context. Not after I, not after I had a baby. Because let me tell you, I pretended that I, you know, I knew someone said don't Google. And I took it to the nth degree. Like, I literally had no idea what to expect when this coming out. My sister even had a call with me. She was like, you know you're still gonna look pregnant, right? I was like, what? No, the baby's out. I literally knew nothing. But anyway. But in. In terms of musical context, I did. And so I did have that leg up. But I've worked with a lot of gen pop people who really have no access to the diaphragm at all. Someone says to me, like, hey, let's have a diaphragmatic breath.

I know what that means.

But they think, like, they try and breathe into their belly. I'm like, wait, there's no there.

Yeah. Part of my assessment, literally, is like, okay, lay on your back and just take a few breaths. And I'm just gonna watch you and everyone, like, everyone does belly breathing because they think that's what I want them to do.

Yeah.

Every single time. I'm like, cool. So I'm. What are you feeling? Like my belly is going up and down. And I'll be like, okay, cool. Where are your lungs? And they're always like, oh, yeah, like, up here. And some people don't realize that the lung comes all the way up to, like, the neck, essentially. Some people just think the lungs are kind of, like, behind your breast. But a lot of people don't realize. And I think that as trainers and therapists, sometimes we need to really. It's not, like, talk down to someone, but just assume that we don't know the anatomy that you just take for granted. Like, you're so used to knowing where things are that you expect a certain level of kind of competence from everybody. But it's like, okay, let's explain the basics and see if they can execute that. And I think the other thing is that whole belly breathing, like, message gets pushed in things like yoga and Pilates. And it's not that that's wrong. But if that's the kind of message that a lot of women are choosing to hear because that's where they're going for their training or, like, postpartum care or whatever, then they're not really getting the whole picture. And it's not that belly breathing is bad. It's just, like, your lungs are up here. So we should be getting some expansion as well.

It's a cue, right? I get the cue. Right, because we used to hear that, too, as singers all the time. But it's just. This is why, you know, the other thing, too, that I hope trainers really take away or coaches take away is that people's, your cues that you're going to come up with might are going to land differently on other people.

Yeah. Well, to your point, in weightlifting specifically, women and women and men are trying to lift a lot of weight. So I suppose pelvic floor conversation is really important for that kind of demographic. Women and men obviously both have pelvic floors. Men don't know that they do, which is another education piece that I like love to blow people's minds with. But the other thing I suppose is in my experience weightlifting is a male dominated sport dominated sport. A lot of men are coaches. So they're well meaning cues of like push out into your belt or push out into your belly when you're bracing can be misconstrued by female lifters. And because men don't have the same anatomy and they don't have the same issue issues with pressure management, a lot of the time those cues can be very damaging to female lifters. So this is something that I talk about a lot because I find it really like mind blowing that they don't. Men, sometimes coaches that are male don't realize that we have those extra openings. So pushing down onto our pelvic floor is actually the last thing that anyone should be doing when they're bracing. You add 150 kilos on the back of your body and you're trying to do a squat, like that's a recipe for peeing yourself. And so many lifters come to me and they're like, oh, I pee myself about 80% and upwards. My coach tells me to go put a tampon in. There needs to be something else that I can do. And it just blows my mind that teaching them to sense their pelvic floor, teaching them to breathe and stack their rib cage and their pelvis correctly like 90% of the time resolves things. And like I'm not a pelvic floor PT and I don't do internal exams and I, and I always refer if I feel the patient requires that kind of care. But a lot of the time I'm seeing like young women that haven't had children, seeing like women that really should not be having stress urinary incontinence. But they are because the cue that has been used is getting like mixed in translation. And it's a well meaning cue. No one's deliberately trying to hurt anybody. But it can really make like some bad stuff happen for these poor girls when they've got 100 kilos and they're peeing themselves in front of everybody at the gym. Like, they can either leave the sport or they think that, like, something's really, really wrong with them. Whereas if they were just given a different cue and explain something a little bit differently, like, it can be almost like life changing for them.

Yeah, that's such a good point too. And also, you know, and not just in the CrossFit community. I mean, this is, across any heavy weightlifting communities, powerlifting. There's almost a celebration of like, oh, I must have worked really hard because I peed myself. Or I, you know, it's almost like a sense of achievement that they've done this when they can't, when they've, you know, peed themselves. And like, there's even people that are designated to come and. Yeah, pee cleaner upper.

Yeah. And I think, like, there's. It's very. It's a hard thing because I absolutely would never want a woman to feel shamed about it. And I would absolutely never want a woman to like, not compete in her sport because she was concerned about that. And there's this kind of like that mentality of like, woohoo, like, you got the lift, who cares if you paid? And like, I subscribe to that. If your goal is to lift the most weight and you end up leaking a little bit, like, that's okay. Like, it's not like a death sentence, but in the same breath you should be like, checking in, talking to a professional, doing something and it does get better. It doesn't have to exist like that. It's not just like, oh, I leak, therefore I always leak. Like, there's things that you can do. And like, I've struggled with it myself, like lifting heavy, heavy loads and having coaches and clinicians work with me on it. And it's changed, it can get better. But I think, like, we need to make sure there's no shame around it for women. But at the same time, we don't want to celebrate it to the point where someone thinks it's like, normal. Like common. Yes. Normal. No.

Yeah, I love that. Right. It goes back to what we were talking about earlier. The areas of gray. Right. You don't want to push yourself so hard that you're like, oh, this is awesome. But I can't go, you know, I can't go without even feeling that. Go walk into the gym without feeling urgency. But at the same time, we're not so delicate that if it happens and you have to go back to rolling around on the floor and doing all that. Right. That it's just, you know, I Always talk about pain in. In terms of business. And as you know, pain means pay attention. Yeah, you're broken. Or that the machine's broken. It just means we need to put some attention on there.

Yes, yes. Like, pay attention to the environments, the habits, the actions, and what needs to change.

Yeah. So it's so good. You know, just out of curiosity, because I hear this a lot. I heard this a lot, and I remember it was really confusing to me. Is that. And you brought it up earlier when you were talking about how most people think, oh, we're in an anterior pelvic tilt, and you got that low arch and the rib cages are nice and wide. And then I remember getting into postpartum training, and it was like kind of the reverse, where people were like, no, mom's over tuck, and they need to untuck their butt because everybody's, you know, because we're trying to compensate for this. That's out in front. Right. And so it's a very tricky, I guess, way, you know, thing to navigate in terms of, like. Is that really true? Are most moms really in a posterior tilt?

Oh, I. In my experience, I think, like, every woman's pregnancy journey is different. Every woman's birth journey is different. So there's going to be, like, so many things that are different and unique to that individual. So some women, yeah, totally, like, they clench their butt, and that's how they create stability through, like, their deep glutes and their posterior pelvic floor because they've got that baby in front of them a lot of the time. Other women will have a baby on the hip all the time, so they're going to hike one hip up and load one side of their pelvis more. So I think, like, my biggest thing is, like, don't take medical advice from social media, because I feel like there are so many things that could be true for you, but until you're assessed as a unique individual that you are, like, we can't know, and you might make some positive change, like following generic advice. And there's a lot of things that are generally just good for everybody, like the inhale and a full exhale and getting some contraction. But at the same time, like, everyone is unique, and there's always going to be outliers that need less of the norm and something, like, completely different. So I guess, like, with my patients specifically, it's so interesting because once baby arrives, they take the baby to so many appointments. Like, it's like maternal health care and checking this and checking that, and like, sometimes at the clinic, we've got like a child specific osteopath and the mom is taking the baby in because they're not latching or they're not feeding well and they go and get osteopathic work on them. Then I'll be like, okay, mum, so baby's eight weeks old. How many appointments have you had for you? And they're like, oh, none. Like, I'm solely existing to like keep baby happy and healthy. And it's like. And then these pains and these injuries and these issues pop up and it's like, but baby's now, Baby's now three. Like you've maybe gone through another pregnancy, like, and you have literally not even checked in with yourself once to see where you're at. And then we have this like massive journey of like unraveling the issues that have popped up postpartum because we've just ignored them for so long. And like, I haven't had children, so I can't speak to the level of exhaustion. I can only imagine. But at the same time, like, I just feel like we need more health professionals pushing mothers to be like, okay, you need to go have a pelvic exam or you need to go just have like some kind of assessment. And especially before you're getting back into exercise, having like a trainer or a therapist that can like give you a bit of an assessment and figure out what's going on and give you unique and guided advice for your specific body type is so important. But it sometimes feels like it falls on deaf ears for mums. They are giving so much to this little human and not leaving much for.

Themselves, you know, And I'll say too, and this is the first time I said this, so it is rather interesting and I think it's just because of the context of what we're going through right now. But I. Moms get a lot of love when it comes to like, moms don't fall asleep to yourself, but you know dads too, right? I know dads didn't have the baby, but when you become like a parent, you just, you know, you. Life stops, right? You want to talk about lifestyle changes, right? Moms, you know, especially, like, have no bearings. Like, there's just absolutely no. Because you're so sleep deprived that there's like no bearing for your baseline, right? And dads go through it too. My, don't get it twisted. My husband is the one that wakes up in the middle of the night and deals with that stuff usually, not me, right? So got lifestyle impact too. So Parents have a hard time putting themselves first.

Totally. And I think, like, the reason I suppose I target that message to women is just because of, like, that whole change that happens in their body during pregnancy. Like, that uncovers so many things. And, like, I'll have patients that are like, I was fine, and then I got pregnant, and now I've been in chronic pain for eight years. And I always think of pregnancy as, like, you know, there's like, invisible. Like, invisible markers, and it's, like, written all over the place, but you can't see anything. And then you do the top one. Do you know what I'm talking about? And then you color the top marker over the top, and you've got, like, this squiggle line everywhere. Pregnancy is just like, that marker over the top, uncovering all this stuff. You've got all these changes that have occurred, and, like, you don't even realize until you have a baby. And you're like, whoa, now my body is, like, in a completely different position. I have to change the way that I manage that gravity, the way I walk, the way I, like, support my body. It all just gets so twisted.

Oh, yeah. And then it doesn't go away when the baby comes out to my surprise.

No, I wish it did. It would be so much better for everybody.

No, I mean. Oh, it's just crazy, right? It's one of those things that people, you know, we were taught our whole life. Same with breastfeeding, you know. Oh, it's natural. It's natural. It's natural. Well, just because it's natural, A, doesn't mean that it's easy, and B, that doesn't mean that change, like, your whole.

System changes everything, the brain, like, everything. Everything's just shaken up. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, honestly, we could probably talk about that for 2000 years, but I want to be very mindful of your time. You've given us a lot of insight, a lot of things for. For us to, you know, take away, think about in our own practice, in our own bodies and for, you know, our clients. So, out of curiosity, if there was one thing that you would tell somebody, like, if they were like, Dr. Katie, where do I start? What would you say?

Where do I start? I would say, like, put down your phone, leave it at home, go find some part of nature, like, some beautiful area in your. That you can go outside, like, take a loved one, go for a walk, look up at your surroundings, experience that moment and be with someone that you care about. Like, that is, like, if you. If you can't do the breathing, you can't do the sleeping, you can't do the eating. Like literally just go outside, put your phone away, take someone you care about and look at, like look at nature. Because I think that can do so much for your nervous system as well. And it's enjoyable. And you'll probably come back feeling like a bit more of a whole human being.

So, so good. Okay, so where can I send those of you who want to come and hang out with me?

You.

Where can I send them?

So my website is www.thebarbell osteo.com. so there's all of like the information on there, the services I offer, the upcoming seminars. I have got my seminar just recently been videotaped. So I will be selling that online as well for people that can't make it because I'm in Melbourne. So I'm looking at maybe doing kind of a zoom thing as well in the next six or so months. But I will hopefully have it online for sale for those of you, the people that are interested. And also Instagram is a great place to get in touch with me, so I'm Hebible Osteo as well.

Okay, amazing. And we'll make sure to link all that up and then of course when you are ready to sell it, we'll, we'll also link it up in the show notes.

Thank you so much. That would be wonderful.

So much for hanging out with me. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me. Lovely to chat.

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