Pivotal Career Moments with Cameron Puls

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 185. Today, I'm sitting down with physical therapist and business owner Cameron Polson. We're talking all about pivotal career moments. Are you ready?

Let's get started. Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance in movement, package and position their products and services, and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast. What's up, coach?

Thank you so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson, and if this is the first time you're here hanging out with me, thank you so much. Welcome. I'm super pumped that here I wanted to thank you all in advance for your patience and consideration with the audio quality in this particular episode, which I will share a little bit about why. And I'll also do my best to keep it short, because the episode I have on tap for you today with Cameron Pulse, physical therapist and strength and conditioning coach is fire. And I want to make sure you get that as soon as possible. I just wanted. It's an important thing I wanted to note. There's two things that I want to bring up is truly the people who are incredibly successful in their business. One of the things that really separates them, in addition to deciding and continuing to decide, is number two, staying in integrity with their word. Honestly, really look and ask yourself, are you staying committed, disciplined, and in integrity to your word, to doing what it is that you say that you're going to do without the expense of at all costs. And this is a nuanced conversation because I'm not saying go to the gym with the flu because you said you were going to go to the gym for the flu. It's your job to really understand what is resistance and what requires you to just stay. Stay committed to yourself and what needs rest. So, for me, one of the things I'm doubling down on is the commitment to getting the podcast out. And my podcast manager, he really helped me see that and remember that, because I was gonna push the episode because I just had a lot on my plate. And he said, you're committed to this. This is what we can do. And he gave me an alternative. So thank you for that, Chris. And number two, for me, what I'm also, in addition to my podcast, I'm also Getting really committed and specific in prioritizing my time when my children are back at school. And for the longest time I keep putting off the things that are going to fulfill my mental and physical health and I'm no longer available for that. I'm drawing a line in the sand and I'm no longer available for that. So this is an example of me staying true and committed to my word with potentially the audio for this intro being just a little under. But I'm willing to put that on the line in order to stay true to what it is I'm committed to. And so for that I will also invite you today to do the same. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. It's powerful and from an incredible open hearted scientist.

Let's go. What's up Cameron? How are you today?

I am awesome and that's sincere.

I love that. I'm super pumped for today. This is just going to be such a great show. So for those of you who are listening and haven't had the pleasure of meeting Cameron, I'd love for you to share with us a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there.

Yeah, so I'm Cameron Pulse, I'm a physical therapist and I just started my own clinic online and in person business called Performance Therapy Institute. Yeah, so I do physical therapy as well as some personal training and so and it's. I've only been going since about January 2022. In terms of who I serve for the most part I worked in like outpatient physical therapy for about 10 years and more recently the. One of the reasons I decided to start this business was, you know, a few different reasons. I never really wanted to be a business owner but I was, had seen I realized I was running into limitations in the medical system in general with insurance and whatnot. And I still just had no really wish to start my own business. So actually I always wanted to sort of serve this role from people ending physical therapy and then there's still this gap of them trying to get back to what it is they want to do, whether it be hiking or lifting, running or just going for walks, whatever that may be. And it just, it just felt like in the environment of just physical therapy in network where I'm at, it just wasn't, I couldn't really serve them. I didn't really know what to do about it, to be honest. I was already working a lot and actually I decided that after getting some feedback from a friend of mine that I'M really close with. And I trust. And he was like, yo, you just need to get better at, like, dumbing things down for people to start with to get them to, like, buy in to keep working with you. Um, and I was like, well, I think I'm pretty good at that. He's like, no, you can get better at dumbing it down even more. And I was like, okay, dude, like, I trust you. Like, you're, you know, you're given to me, so I'm going to go ahead and look into that. Uh, so actually, I was like, I don't really know where to start with that. I saw you were on a podcast, Beverly, with Encore at that point. Fractal Biomechanics. I had never heard of you before that. To be honest, I didn't even listen to the podcast. I just saw you're on it. And I know everyone else he talks to is the only people that are highly respect in the field. So I was like, all right, you were doing a free webinar at that point. And I was like, all right, I'm doing this still with no intentions of starting a business. Did one of the workbooks and whatnot that, you know, we started the thing off with, there was like, how do you sort of see your life? And that wasn't the first time I had sat down for a couple of hours and really thought about what I was doing with my life and what I was. And I knew that there was this problem I needed to solve and I didn't know what to do about it. And so, yeah, it was quite literally like doing that workbook that you gave out for a first assignment pt. Profit formula. I was like, I'm gonna start my own business. Yeah. So I don't know if you knew that.

I did not know that. That is truly so amazing. You know, I love that feedback, honestly, because I think as business owners and content creators, and this is true, whether if you're listening to this and you're, you know, a coach, a physical therapist, and you create this. These workbooks, or you create this exercise or program and you have the intention of this is going to change someone's life, and then you just never know. You put it out into the world and you're like, well, did I change someone's life? Sure hope so.

Yeah. Well, yeah, you did. You flipped it upside down. In a good way. Like, in a good way in a situation and only that. But the conversations we had, you know, even via dm, once we'd started working together, if it was. Yeah, I mean, it was definitely. It's changed the way I've approached a lot of things where if I feel that, like, resistance versus something that's, you know, uncomfortable. But that was. Yeah, that was a big. I remember sitting there doing that, and then going to my wife after I finished that workbook, and I'm like, I think I'm going to start a business. Like, how do you feel? And I asked her, like, a dozen times, and I was like, you sure? You sure? You sure? You sure? All it would have taken was her to say no once, and then, like, this would have never happened. It's amazing. Yeah. So that's how I decide. I thought that there was this gap. I didn't know how to get into it.

And here we are.

And here we are starting your own.

Business, which is amazing. And you've done some amazing, incredible things, like with your opening and with your clinic, like, it's just really, really powerful and amazing to see and be a part of. So thank you for that. And I'm curious, one of the things you said, and I'd love for you to go a little deeper on, is that you had noticed that there were limitations in the way that you were serving and caring for people. So what are some of the common things that you were seeing that you felt like needs to be changed?

There's sort of three big things. Let's see if I'll start talking about one, and then I'll probably forget what the other two were, but. Or think that there's five, it'll be one of the two. So I'll start going a little deeper into it. So one of the first things is. And to be honest, I thought that there was three things to start with. And now that I've gone, now that I've started this business, I realize there's many more things that were actually limiting me from showing up for people that I just sort of. I didn't think that there was another option. And for some people, there. There is not another option, but you start anyway. Since starting this business, I realized there's been more obstacles than I even thought there were. Once you start to, like, once you peel back what you thought the original obstacles were, and then you realize there's more. There just continues to be more things for you to be able. Maybe not for me to show up for people, but for other people to show up for themselves and then. And. Or even to be able to work with me. Like, there might just be reasons why they can't.

So good. That's such a Powerful point. And honestly, I just said this on a podcast the other day, which is that we take for granted what comes so easy to us and we think, oh, this is so easy. Everyone must know that when they don't really.

No, no, it's. And that's something that's taken me a long time to understand, but you've definitely helped me with like big time. But it's so one of the first things that I noticed was is so with. With the in network model or really just where I was working in in network and health insurance. So I mean, I. No one really wants to listen to a podcast about the difference between in network and out of network health insurance. But usually in network, like the PT company or whatever has a contract with the health insurance. So like that's usually when you go to your doctor's office or PT and you have a copay and it's 20 bucks or 40 bucks or lately it's become even more than that. So anyway, the it is the PT company, once that contract sort of signed, like we don't have any way to negotiate that contract, especially as a small private practice. So for instance of the health insurance company at the end of the year goes, hey, we're going to cut your reimbursement rates by 5 to 10%, you know, or more. Then you sort of go, okay, like if Anthem Blue Cross. No, what are we going to do about it? Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield's going to come and go, oh, we're cutting everyone in the area by 5 to 10%. Or we're going to make some other rule. Like there's, there's not like a, there's like, there is no negotiation power. Like, what are you going to do about it? You know, you're going to what, take them to court? Like where we don't even have like a profit margin at that point. We've just like already been getting lower rates anyway.

But they're still collecting payments. So they've just increased their profit margin.

Oh yeah. They've increased their premiums that they're collecting from the patients. They're decreasing the amount that they're going to pay out. They're increasing the amount of their deductibles and their co pays and their coinsurance. So essentially, without changing their business model at all, they are collecting more money from patients, they're collecting more money in premiums and they're paying less out in general for them. A great business model, except that this is what our whole health system operates on in general. That means as that happens in order to stay at trying to, like, just not just to even make our salary and keep the doors open, you have to see a certain amount of people, right? Like, you have to see a certain volume. And unfortunately, where I was at, the business owners were very good at keeping expenses low and living a life on the. On the ownership side of things to make sure that we didn't have to see a lot of people and they didn't have to stress us out. Like, they didn't have to worry about billing high and whatnot. So, anyway, so as people came, started to just notice, like, I didn't think that I was seeing that many people in terms. In context of my career were, like, in a day, like, a full day would be 12 people, which, as I say that.

Wait, wait, what? Oh, my God.

No, but, like, yeah, in context, that's like. Like nothing. Like, my first job, I see somewhere between 16 to 20. And I've had other. Other jobs where, like, every day, a perfect day was 16. So, like, 12 in context, didn't seem like much. So I thought when I started this job, like, oh, it's not that many. Like, I can. I can do this. But I just realized that about four to five patients within the day, I realized my paperwork is getting slower. I couldn't think as much. And I just kept thinking, like, I was lazy. Like, how do other people do this? There's this book called the Power of Full Engagement. I can't remember who wrote it, but anyway, Bill Hartman had recommended to me at one point, and it just. I didn't understand the concept of energy. So that was, like, the first obstacle I realized is, like, I kept thinking, well, there's eight hours in a day. Like, all other PTs are doing this. But then once I realized, oh, like, at four to five patients, I was done because, like, I love doing this. And I get up every morning and for about 45 minutes to an hour, like, I study or I read or I watch YouTube videos or I ask mentors or I go over old notes and I try to get, like, just, you know, from the. Was it James Clear? The Atomic Habits. Yeah. Book where he's talking about, like, that 1% better. So just, like, in the morning thing, just get, like, 1% better. But then you started to realize, like, if you're trying to get better with every patient, like, that requires a lot of energy. So, like, every session is a learning opportunity for myself. But at about five patients, I was done. I just realized I was done. Like, not like, I was there. And I Had to. I had to. Everyone is showing up for themselves, right? They've gone to their doctor's office, they're coming to pt, they're getting doing or anything I'm asking to do. They're paying quite a bit of money and we're not really getting a lot of that money necessarily, but they're having to pay a lot of money. And, and I was like, I don't know how I can keep doing this. Like, I can't tell if I. Cause I want to get better. But I couldn't tell if I was not getting better at my craft because either I was too tired. And then the story comes to my second obstacle, which was like, like I love my co workers and there's especially the people at my last company I was with. There's a lot of people that I would, I would send my family to go see. But as I. But I don't expect them to necessarily see movement or health and performance the same way that I do. Like, that's, that's fine. I don't expect them to. But as I'm trying to get 1% better every day, if we're having to share patients because we have so many, because we have to see so many for sharing patients, and then I see that they're spending the next session or two doing things that I would perceive as interference with what I was trying to work on them with. It became difficult to tell if the person's plateau with care. They weren't particularly getting any better if that was because I wasn't. If there were concepts I was missing or if there were. If there was interference from their previous sessions before they came back. So I just didn't know how to solve those two things without sort of being the only chef in the kitchen.

I mean, that's really big. I mean, there's two things that I want that I think is important to highlight. And I feel like people miss this is. That is. You know, you mentioned that and I think this is true of high achievers because you had mentioned that, like you started to feel like it was you. Like, I'm not disciplined enough. This is, this must be my fault. I'm not disciplined enough. And I think that we internalize that and we don't look at the bigger picture and realize there's way more here at play. And especially you talked about energy. And it's funny, I have the sticker right here. Everything is energy. And I look at it often, right? And I think that when we're talking about business, specifically in business, Building people will say all the time, oh yeah, my model works, my model works. But they totally take for granted the amount of effort and energy it takes to acquire a new client, fulfill on a new client. And, and all of that takes so much effort that we're like, yeah, it's just going to happen. No, no, it adds up. It adds up.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Especially when I just think about, you know, the, I mean, like when I went to go buy our first thing of like merch, right. Like, or merchandise, my logo on it and it was like this huge catalog and I was like, I'm just flipping through and I'm like, oh, I kind of like that. Oh, I kind of like that. My wife is like, well, are you sure? Like you want to. I'm like, I have so many other things that my energy requires.

Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah. Just to make decisions that I wasn't planning on making. The decision making process requires so much energy.

So true. And people don't realize that decision fatigue. Right. Your clients have this too.

Yeah, it's like offering too many options to the client. Whereas, like, and again, like, I didn't really understand that until more recently when it's like if people reach out and they're like, how much, you know, if they're to be like, how much is it to work with you? You know, and it really sucks. And that's another thing that sort of sucks in the, in the health care realm, especially in network, as people call and they go, how much is it per visit for me to come work with you? And we're like, I mean, this is always the case, even out of network is sort of like, I don't know. Yeah, right. Because it's like, well, we're going to build the insurance and then we don't actually know what they're going to like, bill back or what they're going to allow. So the amount. So that's one of the other things with this business is like, I didn't want people coming in worrying while they're on the table, while I'm trying to talk them through some weird breathing exercise or foot sense, you know, whatever it is. Or we're talking about pain and I don't want them thinking about how much is a session going to cost me. Right. Like that's. They're not really engaged and I just didn't, you know, I heard, and this is something I heard Sean actually I talked with him on the phone about it. That was the first conversation we ever had, was about insurance, actually with Sean Astroga from amp performance and rehab is. He was telling me his thought process behind it and I was like, yeah, I don't want people on the table wondering, geez, I wonder what my bill is going to look like after this. Even if it's going to be at worst case scenario, I want them to know when they walk in how much it's going to be. So they've already committed to it, they're in there, they're in the moment. And so that was just something that a lot of people, like at the end of sessions, they just like, they didn't know, they didn't already know how much it was going to cost them, so they couldn't even commit to like how much energy and time in their schedule like they were going to be able to do. So it was just, it was those, those like three things were, were the issues in terms of showing up for people, and the other one was like being able to show up myself. So like, I realized I didn't have enough if I didn't have enough energy for my patients and clients. I also, and on the other hand, if reimbursement rates are so low, I realized the more money that I spent on my own learning and getting help from myself, the better outcomes I was getting. Yeah, like I've, I've made probably the least amount of money I've made in a while this year. Just starting a new business. Right. Just like getting everything going. And yeah, I spent more money on continuing education this year, but every time I go to do something or learn something, it's an immediate feedback of like, oh, you know, you, you, Sometimes it would be like when you get tired, you know, at the end of sessions and you're busy at, you know, it's the 12th person of the days and they're like, okay, you know, you know, thanks, that's helpful, you know, I guess. And then if you're like, hey, do you, you know, you have appointments scheduled for next week? They're like, oh, I'll call later. And I'm like, they're not going to call later. I mean, sometimes they do, but like, I mean, statistically the chance of them, if they're not, as opposed to now, people, you know, get off the table or get done with their session, I don't bring it up. They have their schedules open. They're like, when's our next one?

Yes. So you're, you're bringing up two things or three things because I, I also want to circle back on the other thing too that you talked about. And it Goes back to energy in the sense of like, there has to be an even energy exchange. I saw this in the gym all the time. Is that the client, the patient, they're investing thousands of dollars, like it is an investment for them. But then when the provider doesn't get. But then the provider doesn't see that same investment and they're barely paying their bills because they're getting paid, you know, $20 or $30 or $15 in some cases. Right. But you know, that is a mismatch in terms of energy distribution. And then people aren't, aren't happy with that type of. People aren't happy. Therefore the patient care suffers. But when you can really provide an immediate response or, you know, some type of quick win, this is the other thing too, is that, you know, people, people just need the buy in. They need the win for the buy in to the proof that shows them that their investment of time is worth it. Right. They don't need, they don't need to have their ACL repaired in two minutes. They need to know that, oh, I'm moving the dial, I'm getting 1% better every single day. And then the rest will take care of itself.

Yeah. They just need to have trust that the pros, the process they're about to enter is helpful. Is, is the ideal process. Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes. So good. And, and there's also going to be a compounding effect. And, and it, it is happening for you as the person who's reinvesting in your skills. Reinvesting in how? In, in your business growth. Sure. You're going to have moments of like, more investment before you get to the exponential output. But then it'll come right.

Yeah, right.

It'll come right.

And you can. And that's one of the. I guess it's. I mean, that's where I sort of noticed it. You know, we're sort of talking about like, you know, where I'm showing up with people, but at least I don't, I don't. This principle of the exponential growth of reinvesting, like just, it applies to everything. Right. It's like Fibonacci circle, basically. It's like, you know, one plus one is two and two plus one is three. And then, you know, know two plus. And all of a sudden it's like, all of a sudden the next jump is this giant. Right. It's just big and it's like. And sometimes that even comes with. But that comes with people. The person's rehab is like, there's people that I've been, you know, some people I've been seeing for a while, and it's like these little changes, a little change, this little change, this little change. And all of a sudden they've got all the pieces, and now in one session, you sort of put it all together and then they go, whoa. You know, which is what I tried to do with. Which is like, you're trying to make something sexy that's not with, like, my, you know, my free, like, PDF that I give to, you know, clients or patients is like, it's basically like the top three skills. They can get those skills down. The exponential growth comes after it. But it's like, how do you. But it's like you're always saying, it's like, how do we get. How do you make, you know, step. You know, step Z is awesome, but, like, you have to get people excited about B.

Yes.

Yeah. Step A, step B. Step C. Yes. Because step C, Step D might be like, what gets them really excited. But they have to. They have to. You have to somewhat. You have to communicate with them, which is another. Which I guess, to be honest, is another thing, which is an energy thing, but a little bit of. But also, but also, also time. In this case, we're being able to communicate with them. And that's the other thing too, is communication and having, like, I'm. I guess I'm personally okay with. Because I'm. I have more control over the situation because I take a lot of pictures, a lot of videos of patients, and I have them. I discuss with them either on the phone and through email, and then I give them things to sign off that are very clear as to, like, I'm only going. I'm going to use these so you and I can discuss or if you're okay with it, if you're all right. In certain instances, like privately sharing these videos or pictures with my peers and my mentors so I can get feedback. So, like, I know you're in the room with me, but you're not just seeing me. You're seeing my network.

So, so powerful.

Right?

And honestly, the network, for me at least, is the network. The network is what helps me feel confident in delivering on my prom. Meaning that I know, A, that the process works. And I also know that if I ever get stuck or I'm fit with it or I'm. Or I'm met with a challenging case, that my network is vast enough that I could get the support I needed to fulfill on that hard case.

And. And when it does, when you're able to fulfill on that hard case. Like, like last week I had somebody working with for a while and I've spoken to a number of different people and like, and you know, I was going back and forth on like drawing pictures and trying to come up with concepts and practicing like on my wife and other people. She came in and she, we got this like, great response. Like, right, she's coming for like hand stuff. And by the end of the session, not only was her like hand numbness gone, but like for the first time in years, she could turn her head to like look onto the freeway to merge without pain. And she like texted me and she's like, whoa, that's crazy. And like, I got so amped. Like, I was so pumped. I was like, I was like, babe, we're going out to dinner tonight. Like, I'm just. We did it. Yeah, it was like, it was just like one of those, like, just a concept that, that becomes. I guess there's another thing that you couldn't with an in network situation is it can't be as fluid because there, there are like bureaucratic and policy liability reasons why, you know, there's so much extra paperwork and things that like, I can't really just like share people's pictures with other professionals because like, I'll have everyone on their intake paperwork. Like, I'm going over this. I'm like, I feel this is so important if we can do pictures and videos. You know, I want this, I want that discussion to happen before they even walk in the door. So it was. But you know, people already, you know, coming in and, and that, that wasn't really a part of the sequence there. So. So now it's like being able to build my own workflow so that technology is part of it so that I can, you know, draw on their pictures and discuss with them like what it is that I see or just send them like a text message. Especially now with Apple has the, the like, you know, record your screen while you talking to it.

I know, Isn't that so cool?

I love that. Like now, yeah, now I just take videos of people and like, you don't have to do slow motion video. You can literally just with your thumb just slide through frame by frame and just be like, like, look, remember that measurement we took? And that hurt when I did this. Like, look at you squat. Boom. Right there. There it is. Look at you shift, you know, look at, look what your back's doing right there. And then like, oh, bottom, you know.

Yes.

So there's that. So that's that's how I am. So I show up for.

That's amazing. How did you get into physical therapy?

Yeah, it's not like. It's not particularly, like. Complicated story. I. I had always wanted to do it since I was 17. My. My mom is. My mom has post polio syndrome. So I don't know if people. So like everyone. Well, not everyone, so. So anyway, she had polio as a kid. She must have been like, one of the last people, because she's quite young for it. I think she had some other illness and she was like, one of the last kids to be, like, in the Shriners Hospital where they used to leave the kids there. And the parents would just leave because they thought that that. Because they thought that every time the kids cried when the parents came to visit and they leave, they thought they were doing trauma to the kid rather than realizing that, no, the family should be there all the time. This happens now, which is why they have, like, the Ronald McDonald's houses, like, next to the, like, hospitals and stuff. So anyway, I think that she was. I don't know what else she was sick with, but she ended up contracting polio as a child. So. Yeah. And then she used to be an occupational therapist, so before she had to retire from that because. Because she had. Because of post polio syndrome. So. So basically, polio. It's kind of one of the reasons I wanted to get into it is. Is there was. There's a few things that. That just sort of always intrigued me. One was, like, sort of sports and athletics about just. Why. Because I would go from Maine. We'd go. So I'll sort of bring this back to my mom. But like, we would go to, like, AAU tournaments. And us being up. Up in Maine, it was like, you know, we go down to Florida or we go to, you know, what's weight. Went to Florida a lot. You know, like, Virginia, stuff like that. And it was just like. And I always sort of wondered, even in high school, like, why I could work out. Like, I worked out a lot. Like, I ran a lot. I played a lot of basketball. And, like, why were there some kids that did nothing? They would smoke weed, drink stuff. And, like. And they would come. They would go into a weight room or go out into a basketball court or go on a soccer field or whatever, and they're unreal. Like, they're just good.

Yeah.

And I would just. I was so baffled by it, because if the prince. If the. The principle that in the general public and even physical therapy, you know, this is this is, this is a true principle. This, this isn't untrue. It's just one variable is the, the overload principle. Right. Is, is progressive overload. So starting on one thing and then as you gradually add, you know, in this case, you know, as we sort of understand it as adding a little bit more weight, you know, to get bigger muscles. But this like idea that bigger muscles equals better performance, like, it's. It's not true. And you. And they could see it on the field because I was working on this all the time and yet. And not only that, but like I didn't know about the nutrition or the recovery or energy. Like, I don't know about any of this. I was like, why do I plateau with my workouts? Why do I get hurt when everyone else isn't? So I just was always like, this doesn't make. There has to be other things involved and I don't understand what they are. And that was almost more curious to me than actual like being good at a sport. I just didn't understand how that was possible. So then I go to someone like my mom who has so polio. What the polio virus does is, is it is. It goes and it attacks, it eats. Basically the point at which the nerves connect to the muscle. So there. So the connection, the nerve to muscle connection is eaten by the polio virus. Got.

Which.

Which is sort of. Yeah. So what'll happen is when they get so unlike a stroke or a brain injury where you'll have like, you'll have this sort of patterned measurable, like, sort of like it makes sense. It's like, it's like where they have nerve weakness. A polio is more like dalmatian spots. They have these random areas.

Of infection. Yeah.

Of just like weakness. And the. In the people like way back in the day, like in the early 1900s, where they had. If it got to their. Hopefully I'm saying the right nerve, the phrenic nerve that goes to their diaphragm. That's why they're in the iron lung. Right. Because they couldn't. This basically was like the first version of like a. Of a ventilator, basically. So. So essentially what. What happens is though is, is a lot of polio patients and I just reading a book about this recently, but is anyway they' they'll have the sort of recover like their strength sort of comes back and they're like somewhat normal and they're good and they might spend their whole life being good. Post polio syndrome is like decades later for whatever Reason their body starts reverting back to the point at which they were first infected with polio. Like, whatever compensations the body is able to do, it goes back. So they think they're getting polio again, but they're not actually. They're just going back to, like, what they were like when they had polio.

The neural pathway.

Correct. Whatever it is, whether it's because obviously the nerves. So what they used to think that it was a. Is. I don't know. This is my own opinion, but is that the original theory was when people recovered, it was like the nerves locally. Like, you know, let's say someone lost hand strength. It was like the nerves, like, sort of. So if we sort of got a death here, like nerve from here, nurse from there, sort of branch out and do extreme extra work.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, maybe. But, you know, they. They've. They've been doing, you know, they've done a lot of, you know, but that mean there'd have to be like a change in the brain as well, so. And as well as the spinal cord, for that matter. So it's like, for whatever reason, it's. It's very odd. It's somewhat predictable. As people go back to post polio, it's like this weakness comes back again. So the issue is with people that have these sort of neurologic issues is they have seemingly this. This principle. I don't know if it is a principle, but it's called, like, neurologic fatigue. Meaning if you were to go and do some, like, say you go for a hike and you're tired and you give yourself a, you know, a day, an easier day, an easier workout, recovery the next day, get in a pool or just go for an easy walk, like, you feel better. People with, like, neurologic weakness, if they get neurologic fatigue, which is basically any fatigue, so would they get fatigued? Like, they will be, like, bedridden for days, like, they can't really move and they're in usually typically, like a lot of pain as well. So, yeah, so it's like. So this. So if the one thing that we're taught in sort of PT school and his personal trainers is this idea of progressive overload, and that's like the only sort of principle you walk away with. It does not apply with people with neurologic weakness. Like, I mean, it does, it does, but it doesn't. You don't know where to start then. Because if you're. Because if the idea is you have to make people fatigued, then therefore, if you apply that to someone with post polio syndrome or Ms. Or often stroke patients, they won't be able to train the next day, which is an issue if you need them to be doing something every day to get better at skill. They need to get 1% better, just like you and I do. But you've overloaded them, fatigue them so much to the point where their body can't do anything.

Okay, this is. Okay.

Okay. Okay.

So can we just unpack this for one second? Okay.

Yeah, for sure.

What. Who are the people that fall into this category? You started to mention like polio, Ms. Like, who are the people that fall into this category? And there's. And what about the. There's also like. I'm going to botch this word, so can you fix this for me? Is the. It's the. The over doms. Like the. Starts with an R where they. Delayed onset. But it's muscle soreness. Yeah, but it goes too far.

Yeah. So it's basic. It's essentially that. Right. But it's like.

What's the word I'm looking for?

Room. Room. I mean, I think you're looking for like delayed onset muscle soreness, like inter. Or like, like it would be.

It starts with an R. Oh, like.

You'Re, you're talking about like extreme, where you start getting like muscle breakdown.

Yeah.

Is that what you're talking about?

They. They can't. Like, people in my gym would get sued for it.

Yeah, yeah, I, I know you're. You're. I, for whatever reason, because this was like something that. I don't mean to throw a CrossFit under the bus, but they got, they got sued for this many, many times. I know what you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah. CrossFit gossip for this, all that. It's like rombards or.

Oh my gosh. Rap. Rap.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's it. Rabdo, rab, rab. Anyway, anyway, so who are. It'll come to us. We'll hit.

Yeah, it's so, so it's similar, but it's like in this case, like, it's like the, the nervous system itself cannot produce enough action for the muscles to reach that point. So there's a breaking point before the muscles break down. Because when the muscles break down, then it's. It's very, very bad because it can be like life threatening. So you start getting these proteins that are breaking down, getting into the bloodstream and starts to like clog up your, your kidneys. Like that's, that's, that's an Issue.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right. Yeah. So like your kidneys and liver start to like fun like that. That's sort of that, that crossfit muscle breakdown thing. So like in this case though is like they. And the danger, what they used to think is like, and this is somewhat true is like potentially with post polio syndrome. Fortunately, my mom hasn't had this, but it obviously it's sort of similar to Ms. In that case where like is if you start to get weaker, like you overwork it like too much, then the risk that people are afraid of is you get too much neurologic fatigue is that you never actually fully recover. Like you. I hate using this, this, this analogy just personally because that's something I need to unpack. But there's a certain politician that, that literally believes in a thing called the battery theory, meaning that like you only have so much life like energy and once you run and the more active you are, the faster you die. Which is what? Not true.

That is insane. But are we surprised? Okay, yeah.

Basically if you just Google who battery theory, politician, you'll get your answer. But anyway.

Okay, that is crazy. That is crazy.

Okay, so, so no. So I'm going to use the battery analogy. Well, let's say we're talking about like because for the most part people, I think, I think we also know how like a laptop and cell phone battery work. If it's, if it overcharges too much, it start like the actual highest potential charge of the battery can have, starts to drop. Right. It's like the more it works, like the potential drops. That's what sort of the theory is for people that have too much neurologic weakness. Okay. So it's like, so you've got this situation where you've got people. So like people can work out too much whether if they had, they don't have a neurologic issue. And to your other questions, like who else is involved? So this be strokes, Ms. parkinson's, post polio, like brain injuries. I mean it's like just like any other type of weird neurologic. It can even be an autoimmune disorder.

I was about to ask you, could it be like, does autoimmune fall into this?

Yeah, this where you see like, like again, be very careful with this diagnosis when I say this.

So this is for educational purposes.

For education. Yeah. So when I, when I say like words like fibromyalgia, there are people that are heavily. I worked in hospital systems where that was heavily over diagnosed. They could not There I myself was not the right person at the right time for them. And no one in the community was the right person at the right time for those people because they had very. They had so fibromyalgia to be sort of this, like, widespread body aches and pains and fatigue. But it's like, literally, like, someone can come and just like, touch you like this, like, just the swipe and it's like on these, like, 13 points of your body, and it like, sends them through the roof. This isn't like, oh, my knee hurts and my foot hurts and my neck hurts all on the left side. It's like, I see that all the time. That's not. It's not fibromyalgia. It's a lot of things, but it's not fibromyalgia. Right.

It's like the catchphrase. It's like sciatica. You get like low back pain, and everyone's like, you got sciatica?

Yes, sciatica. Yeah. It's like, oh, where do you feel? Oh, in your back. Okay. Yeah, it's okay. But it's at this point now, it's like just sort of like. It's like I just say, okay, we're gonna. We'll leave that. If that's how you. If that's the label you've given it, then therefore I'll. I'll let you keep the word. If that's what the word means to you. Have you had anything go down your leg? No. Okay. So you picture sciatica being in your back. I don't care where you want to go. You want to call it schizcatica, I don't care. So, so with. So like. So, yeah, so an autoimmune type stuff, it'd be a similar thing. Like you. Because you're going to put your body into this sort of heightened state of inflammatory markers get increased. Right. When you go to, like, work out hard, which is. Needs to happen because that, that is the sign that you're creating, you know, sort of the. If we want to call it like micro trauma, you're causing stress to the body, you're using energy, and you now need to have a recovery. Right. So, but the threshold for people with these neurologic things, the energy that they can output is so much lower. So how do you, like, for some people, potentially you could elevate maybe, but we don't know. But there was theory was that if you tried to do this, you tried to progressive overload, you ran the risk of their battery potential Falling every time. So people. Right. So like, so that's a lit. Because that does. Well, that's the thing though is like with diseases like post polio, they don't really know because no one's doing research on it anymore because it was basically eradicated. So everyone's like, why spend money on grants and research to do this when hopefully in the next 20 years no one has polio in the world? And that's not true. It's coming back. There's already coming back in African countries. And now there's been a case in Japan, I think in Britain and the uk and then now we're going to potentially start to see it more that people don't want to get vaccines. So is this somebody that has lived with someone who has these diseases that could potentially be eradicated? Like, I don't think people realize how bad polio is. Like, it's, It's. Yes. I don't think they realize just how bad it is. So. Yeah, so. So it's one of those things where I was like, I don't know. Right. So like my mom, her whole life is basically like, had no answers in terms of what. And this is someone that grew up riding bikes. And she's always like, she's never been able to run ever. So she's always like, she had like. Like a lot of people have dreams where they fly, but she's never been able to run because she never formed a hip socket as a kid. Kid. So like she has dreams about running.

Oh my gosh.

As opposed to the rest of us, like fly, which is really, really common. So it's so, it's, it's just like it was, it wasn't so much that I was like, it wasn't. That was like seeking answers like for my mom or anything. But like, I just, I wanted to get into. Like, to be honest, I didn't even know this was a profession. Like the whole strength coach and performance coach thing, like, if I had known that existed, but growing up in small town Maine, that wasn't really around me. So like to be. If I had known about that and seen it, like, if I'd run into people like that, that's probably what I would have been doing. But. And then I was like, I'm gonna get an athletic training and like my guidance Counselor and some PTs were like, Nah, like, you can go down that road later if you want. But like, in terms of like your, like, lifestyle, think about what you want with your life. You know, it's like. And I was like, nah, okay. I do want to go into PT and I just never. I mean, what I thought it was when I went into it was something totally different than what it turned out it was. Yeah, it turned out to be a way more beautiful thing than I could have ever thought it was. But. And then I always thought I wanted to work with athletes and I just, just realized, I just watching people just like go through their journeys and like, for me personally, studying athletes helps me understand the really beat up people because it's like, I mean, for a couple of reasons. One is like, in PT school, you go and you like, you sort of learn what? Not really. Like, you don't really. I don't really see movement that way anymore of like how I learned in PT school. But like, you sort of go in and you have this like, you get like a little, little dose of what normal is and then you talk about diseases, but you don't really know what normal is. Normal, yeah. So the only way to study normal is to study sports medicine and study training. So like, I'll make a lot of posts and then like, and a lot of my like, peer group and mentors are all people that like, work with high level athletes. But it's because they have to, they have to understand what healthy is to a high degree so they can sort of bring that person back to like performance. High performance. Bring them back to healthy. Right. But if I'm dealing with someone that can only be this healthy.

Yeah.

Then like below the bar. Yeah, I, I don't know what this is. So like, how do I bring someone up here if I don't know what it. It is?

Yeah.

So like studying athletes for me, I find to be really, really helpful. Which is sort of why my company's name is Performance Therapy Institute. Because it's like studying performance just helps me better understand the boundaries in that case. Yeah. And then when you start telling people like, you start giving them examples of what athletes are that have never been an athlete, they appreciate the fact that you think of them as an athlete. They're like, oh, here's the thing, I'm broken. He's not giving me examples based on other broken people. He's giving me examples based on like, you know, Tim Lincem when he was, you know, at his highest pitching for, you know, the San Francisco Giants or whatever. You know, he's, he's telling me I'm, you know, I'm closer to having a foot like LeBron's. You know, if you ever see pictures of LeBron's foot and stuff, rather than, you know, this other broken person in the hospital. You know, not saying that. Just not saying that. I like your life's ending when you're. But if you're the broken person in the hospital, you still want analogies based on, you know, you want someone to see hope for you and to see you where you can go, as opposed to being like, you know.

Yeah. The belief in possibility. Right. People think. People underestimate how powerful it is when, you know, you get to borrow belief from someone else. Meaning that some. You might not feel in that moment, like, oh, I could. I'm never going to be able to perform at that level. But when someone says that it's possible or shows that they believe in you to be possible, like, that is so powerful.

Yeah. I thought it was gonna, like, I tried. I didn't. It was actually, like, feedback. Since I started this business, there was this woman who's had, like. Oh, just. She had a new replacement situation that went very, very, very, very, very bad. But the fact that she was like, the Olympics were going on as the Winter Olympics, and she. We were talking about getting up and down from a chair, like, as if she was getting in and out of a cut, like a. Like a running cut, planting her foot and going the other direction. Because she couldn't really use one of her legs, so she had to use the other leg, as if she was getting into a cut, coming out of a cut. Same principle. So as I was sort of describing it that way, then she started watching skiing, downhill skiing, and she's watching them go in and out of their turn. She's like, oh, that's what they're doing. Like, I never used that analogy. She's like, oh, I just started watching them how they lean over that side, get their hip and their knee sort of lined up in that, and then they just come out of the cut and, like. Yeah. And then, like, come back. She's like, oh, yeah, this is easy because I just watched, like, you know, I was watching old films of Lindsey Vaughn do it or something. Like, okay. It's literally. It's the same thing, just at a way higher. You know, just different levels of magnitude, really. So. But.

That'S amazing. Yeah.

So, yeah, it's like, once it's. It doesn't feel like I'm not treating athletes. It's the same principles. So it's like, there's never any. So it doesn't really make any sense. I know there's, like, a prestige of working with professional athletes, but there's Also, I don't know, it's the same exact thing, which is sort of why I, I wanted to apply these principles. I don't know if you needed to go or anything, but.

No, no, no, I don't.

No is to the, to the gamers.

Yeah, I want to talk about this. Let's. Let's segue.

So. And I'm very much an outsider looking in with this gaming industry situation. Meaning like, I'm like, it's something I've always been curious in, even though, like, I'm not a competitive gamer myself. And I was really very much hoping to like immerse myself into it in the local college and unfortunately, actually, I didn't even tell you this. The coordinator I was working with at Husson University with their esports program recently left for another position. So I've got to like, reintroduce myself to. I was supposed to be doing a, like a, like a media info talk to the local, to the local news at Husson tomorrow, but now I don't even know if they have coordinators, so I don't even think it's happening. Happening. It's worth following that. Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely, I'm just, I'm just. For whatever reason, I've always been sort of curious about like, I grew up playing video games. I love video games. When I was chronically ill myself and I had chronic low back pain myself, I was like, the only thing I could do was essentially at that point without feeling sick or anything was play video games. So I played like a lot of Call of Duty at that point. And then, then I found out it was a way for me to stay in contact. I mean, like, let's face it, picking up the phone and talking to your guy friends, I mean, I think it's hard for women. Like, it's, I know, you know, it's hard for women too. But like, so like, like I don't like pick up a, like I do. There's a few friends, there's a few guy friends I pick up and I catch up with and. But like, it's just so much easier to just be like, hey, you want to hop on, Hop on some War Zone or Call of Duty, you know, and also it's like you talk for two hours. So I have a buddy of mine that's like, know. And so I, and then I, you know, you just see the different ages and things that, you know, video games can bring together as well as the toxicity part of it. But I know that the gaming community is actively Trying to stop that.

So funny because my husband plays and he's like, I can't play with the teenagers. They're so mean to me.

They're so mean. Yeah. And then, and I didn't realize this too. I didn't realize how many, how many women were in competitive gaming. But they don't. I think I might have messaged you about this is they like. I went on Reddit to go find out more about like women playing in esports because I mean esports is kind of cool where it's sort of like chess. But then I looked into chess and realized that's sort of messed up too. But, but for the most part at the moment, like in competitive gaming, especially in the collegiate level, there's actually a fairly high ratio of women competing at the collegiate level in esports and they compete with men like there's no separate division. In fact, in the United States, their esports is not considered a sport. So it actually doesn't fall. It doesn't even follow under Title 9 or anything anyway. So like that means it's basically. They're essentially considered clubs.

Okay, interesting.

So there's no. So it basically makes it the Wild west, meaning there is no NCAA regulation. So there's some cool parts to it, but there's definitely some things that can go wrong very fast. Which I think is why the toxicity part exists because schools aren't. They're getting a lot of money from tuition from kids coming in, but there's. They're not required to have like this whole, like these high qualifications to have a coach or coordinator run the program. So like basically anyone can come do it. And they, it sounds like many times I've looked into it are not, they're not qualified to be, to be managing, you know, 60 young people at one time and coordinating, you know, so if things go wrong or the seasons downturning, instead of this having be a young person to growing into adulthood like many sports are, it turns into a very high stress, something that is not a positive transition. So, so there's that. So the other part though is there's no regulation in terms of like. And this, the other thing is, is people think in the gaming world is that everyone takes that sort of corporate question mark posture or they look like.

Yes, that's what, like, like this, the hunched over and the. Yeah, yeah, that's what I think that's what's depicted in the thing. Like we, so we see it all, all over the time, all over the place.

And that's. I mean that's what I thought myself. And then you go, but if you like. So when I'd go to Huss and I, I just, I just wanted to go shadow. The kids were cool with it, the coordinator was cool with it. And I wouldn't want like, at first I was like, this is boring. Because they really don't move. Like, because they're playing at such a high level for a couple reasons. But they, they, they physically don't move because they're playing so fast that they're literally just like doing this.

Their hands are just like barely still.

Because, yeah, like they're, they're moving. They're playing 200 to 400 action moves per minute. So to give it context, next, the recreational gamer, like fire to go play. I make like 40 moves a minute. They're making 200 to 400.

Oh yeah.

And so what they do, depending on the game that they're playing is like, they're so it. The, the clicks on the keyboards and the mouse isn't like they're moving because they, the more expensive the hardware they're using, the less it actually moves, so they can make those moves faster. So they're just, they're not doing much. It doesn't look like much, but they're doing a lot of calculations and they're reacting very fast, much faster than, I mean 200, 400 moves. Meaning like, like if they're aiming at something, like I might just like keep it there and then go, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're going like.

I'm also, I'm also curious about the intensity of, you know, when someone's at that level of performance with that type of like non movement, what the impact is in their breath, in their breathing, in their stress response. Because I think of me when I'm hyper focused like that, I'll definitely have moments throughout my day where I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm. I'm literally holding my breath right now. I need to breathe well.

And so that's where it's a. As I was hoping to do some research at Husson, because right now, in terms of the literature that I found, because the literature is like brand spanking new, like there's literally journals coming out, right? They're making the journals now. And so I've been finding is that, well, they keep doing research where they like take people's heart rate and blood pressure before they start playing and then they take it after. I'm like, I don't care about before and after.

I care about right now, care about.

When they're quietly arrest when they're not about to train. And then I want to compare that to when they're under stress. Maybe that's. But at the moment, it doesn't seem like any. I don't. I don't know why, but that's been the case. So I was hoping to find that out. Um, but when watching them, it really looks like they're, like, holding their breath. Especially when games get faster. Like, they're. They're. And. And I would say half of them are not in that question mark or C shape position. I might even say more than half of them do not take that shape.

What do they like?

So a lot of them, like. So from the side. Some. A lot of them will be because they have these, like, really nice chairs and everything. So they'll actually be sort of like. Like this. Yeah. Chin tucked. The monitor will actually be somewhat lower than I probably like them. So they're like. They're like this. That feels awful just doing that. Which closes off your airway and it actually slows your eyesight down. Cause it. It takes away your fast vision, your ambient vision, your peripheral vision, which is how we see things. Like. What was that? Yeah. Oh. So like, how we sort of draw their attention there as opposed to our. It's like, sort of like that's our 120 frames per second, like slow or 240 frames per second, like slow mo video on her phone. And then like, right in front is like our 30 frames per second. Clear.

Who designed the setup for them?

Well.

Is that a loaded question?

So no one really has. But this is where. This is the issue, I think, that is currently in the rehab in training world of gaming. So there's three people that I know of at the moment who are. Who. To their credit. They're. They're smart. They have similar. I mean, they're. They're smart individuals. But I don't think any of them have ever had, like, an actual, like, mentor in terms of, like, biomechanics or performance or any. And they don't seem to have a. They're. They don't seem to have a network of what it means to be a rehab or performance specialist in an organization. So from what I've gathered, because a lot of them have done podcasts or they've written blogs about themselves. So I'll just try to go and understand, like, how did they get into it? So it seems like the guy in the United States who's first done it. And I'm just talking about the United States, like Other parts of the world are seem. They've been like. A lot of like professional football or soccer organizations are actually bought. Have created esports organizations. And so they're. I think I don't know what they're doing. So I'm only speaking in terms of what I found in the United States so far. Again, it's not considered a sport. It's the wire wall rest west. Anyone can do anything crazy. So there's no filter. So in this case, like if you were to go work for a professional sports team in traditional sports, say like the NFL fell or something, there's. It's not. It doesn't matter. Like it's like, oh, you're good or smart. Like there. You have to like there's a certain amount of networking that you have to do. Not just for the sake of. Oh, it's who you know, who you know someone who knows someone. You're getting vetted, right. Not only by your skill set, by your personality. Because they don't want toxicity in their organization.

Yes.

Because everyone from the top down wins super bowl. Right? Top down, bottom up. Like the equipment managers. Everyone is a part of the team. You have someone that doesn't operate well there. It does not go well for the most part. You know, maybe the 90s bulls were the one thing with that situation anyway. So like you're being. So you're being vetted on you and your skill set and your ability to communicate with the organization and the players. Players. So right now in gaming that doesn't exist. Yeah. So I think in the training and rehab like realm, what it sounds like the sort of. The three sort of top companies where people have done is they did realize they had a passion for gaming and they did like working out. So it sounds like the first person that's sort of been in the business for a while, like back in 2015 or 16 would go to gaming events before they turned into the giant monstrosities of events that they are now. And he basically went and pitched it to all of the organization owners like at these arenas. And one person said yes. And that sort of opened the door for him to other people because everyone else wanted to copy the other successful organizations. So like to his credit, relentless selling confidence in himself, showed up for himself. Like I, I love that he did it. I love that he opened the door and that and he did this stuff. There's another woman that, that teamed up with him is. She was basically a new grad in PT school, got into gaming at that point and started like writing articles based on like entry, entry level physical therapy concepts. So as I've. And then there's one other individual who's, who started another company and has gone down that route and he's still sort of by himself and they all sort of done that same thing. Like they're practicing the same concepts. I know this sounds bad about PT school and everything else. Like, well, don't you learn how to be PT in PT school? And it's like kinda, it's kind of, it's kind of like, like, do you really know how to drive that? Well, when you first get your license, like, you know, it's like some sort of hands you the keys and you're like, okay, well you seem to be good enough that you won't kill anyone or you seem to, you know, pass of whatever the exam would be that you won't kill someone. Maybe. So it's kind of like what it means to get your, your doctoral degree at this point. Yeah, like, oh, okay, yeah, you have, you, you, you have a basic understanding of the key concepts to continue learning. It's really how it should be seen. Not that, oh, you've reached a terminal degree, you have a doctoral degree, you know everything. There is no. About physical therapy. Heck no. You don't know anything. It doesn't seem like I knew anything at that point.

Yeah.

So anyway, so that's sort of. So there's, there's no mentors, there's no peer groups for these individuals to sort of bounce ideas off and be held accountable to. Mm. So they've kind of got, they've gone into these organizations in this industry in gaming in which has had their. There's no, there's no background at any of these individuals or these organizations to sort of filter out what is helpful and not helpful.

Yeah.

So they sort of have carved this niche which is again, like, I applaud them for doing it, but it's gotten to a point where it's difficult to not look away and to just ignore. Especially given that there's going to be a lot of money every year. That's. This is already over a billion dollar industry and it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger every year worldwide. The United States is getting very big. It's very big. Much bigger than I thought that it was. I mean like they're packing giant arenas, standing room, and they're having. There's a tournament called the International. It's usually in Vegas, I think, but it'll be in different parts of the world and they'll have it in the states and the pot at this point is upwards of 25 to 30 million dollars for like the winner. Wow. You're talking big money. Big money. Yeah. Talking big investors, you know, talking Red Bull, you know, you're talking different car companies, you're talking large Chinese companies. Yeah, so. So the issue is like there's a lot of people throwing a lot of money at it and then there's. At the moment there's just like. So there's people sort of coming in and then. And this is. I don't, I don't have. Again, I don't have a problem with this. I. As something I'm thinking about doing later is that these other pts and strength coaches for these organizations again, they're like right outta school and stuff and they have quite a few affiliations. They're affiliates for different products. Again I'm cool with that. But it's like a lot of the content and stuff they're putting out like just the products in general. Like I don't particularly. Like I don't think they're particularly all that helpful. And it, I think it just with this being such a baby, such an infant thing to start just putting in all this, this other outside sourcing, it just, it just, it just seems muddied already. Like it wasn't like that when baseball started and hockey training started and foot. You know, like it started. It got to build and we got to build all of this literature and people got to talk and we got to. And then you got to start putting money in it just sort of like have this thing and then you start. Boop. Like we're gonna start making it corporate already. It's, it's gonna, it's gonna be in there. It's gonna happen. But it's, but I think there needs, there just needs to be the. And I don't see anyone else providing the principles that are in traditional sports or in like in healthcare that we've been talking about this whole time in gaming. So that's, that's what I would like to do. Yeah. So cool.

I mean this is, I can't wait. Like this is just like so exciting. Like I just see all the, all of the potential and support and help that this business needs that you're going to get to be part of or, or this, this movement needs that you're going to get to be a part of.

Well, it's because I mean so many kids are like, I mean they're having to retire at like 25. Is the, is the average retirement age for like professional players, and. And some of it is like. And again, some of it's like what we've been talking about, this energy thing, like, they just. There's this idea that you need to just play the game for 12 hours a day. And the professional ranks, they're. They finally are starting to not do that. They're starting to get down like five or so, but it's still like, you know, it's, It's. It would. It would be like. I mean, NFL combine training centers are usually doing active work for about six hours a day, but a big chunk of their day is nutrition rehab and, you know, mental health time and stuff like that. So it's like being able to say, like, hey, to be better at the game, there's a. There's a threshold. And once you go over that threshold of five or six hours, like, you need to fill your time with high energy, recovering actions. Um, yeah, so it's, It's. Yeah. So I think, you know, and I, I still need to immerse myself more so. Because people in this industry can kind of sniff out bs like, if you're not a gamer and you're there to just sort of like, be someone trying to collect on that money aspect, like, they can. They're not done.

Yeah, people can sense that for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's sort of where I'm at with. With the gaming aspect is trying to create some sort of type of, you know, I just want these people that had passion for. For video games. You know, I don't know. It's like, it's like anything. There's a, you know, there's a payoff. There's. There's things, you know, with sport, you can do it too much and it takes away your health and. And, you know, video games can do the same. But, you know, to have people, like, be burnt out and have type 2 diabetes or have a lot of these other health issues that are, you know, because if you're burning out and you have health issues at 25, when the rest of the sporting world is hitting their peak. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

And they deserve to have support, too, even if it's not, you know, because that's what lights them up.

Yeah. Like, if that's what makes you excited and that's part of the community you're in, you know, and that's sort of the one thing that irked me the most, was it's just like an example of hearing their esports research network had a. It's like this international group, mostly academics, but they had like an expert panel. I know I went on a rant about this on Instagram at one point, but where they had like a one. One of these people who is the PT for one of the top level professionals teams. And they hired, like, a strength coach. And so anyway, he was like, oh, I don't really. I don't know. He wasn't like, even valuing. Valuing himself where they was like. He's like, oh, like, I don't really treat injuries. Usually we try to do prevention stuff with ergonomics and so they don't actually have to. And I'm like, you know, they give rewards out to athletic trainers for having players not get hurt. Hurt. Like the rehab and training staff are graded on who didn't get hurt.

Not like, how the. How well they.

Yeah, how will they rehab them? Yeah. So it's like, I don't know why he's going. It's like talking himself out of a job when it's like, dude, that's literally your number one priority is to, like, not have them get hurt. So it's like he didn't quite understand his role in the organization.

Right.

And then on top of it, they hired a. A strength, you know, a trainer. And he was like, yeah, actually I've been having to treat more, like, back and knee issues since we got a trainer. He goes. But I think it's cause it's because they've been like, deadlifting more and they're getting back pain. And it was. But that's normal, you know, I think that. But, like. But you could. Could. Could you imagine, like, for, like, I'm up here, everyone hates them. I know. Maybe not because Tom Brady's not here anymore, but like, New England Patriots. Could you imagine like, getting like. Like one of the. Dante Hightower or something, one of the linebackers, like, going to the athletic trainer and going, dude, ever since we got this new strength coach, like, my back's been killing me when I go to practice.

That's normal.

And then. Yeah, and then you go to, like, and you tell Bill. Bill Belichick that. Right? And they're like, don't even get to Bill Belichick. Can I be like, bye, thanks. Yeah, probably don't. Don't ask for. Don't ask for a referral. Yeah, but like, to hear someone say that online, recorded. I know, it's crazy. And, like, he just doesn't understand. But anyway, so that's what I got for Danny.

It's amazing. Okay. So I want to Be mindful and respectful of your time. So for those of you who want to go deeper, connect with you, what are some of the best places I can send them?

Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, definitely like my Instagram page where I put a lot of stuff on there and the handle, which is I think is in the show notes. But yeah, that's probably the easiest place to DM me and communicate there. I like to put my favorite stuff on TikTok, but the messaging situation is sort of odd there.

Yeah, it is. Instagram's the best place.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's probably the easiest place to sort of connect, you know, comment dm, all that stuff there.

Love it. And we'll make sure we link all that up. So, Cameron, thank you so much for hanging out with me today. You are brilliant. Thank you.

Absolutely.

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