Program Design After Passing the CSCS with Dr. Matt Casturo

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 134. Today we're talking all about program design after passing the CSCS with Matt. Are you ready? Let's get started. Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance in movement package and their products and services and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast. What's up coach? Thank you so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson, and I am super excited to bring to you an awesome guest. Today we sat down and talked awesome all about some of the key components on what it takes to pass the cscs. We unpack what that is if you're unfamiliar. He shared his journey about how he was originally becoming a PT and how he now helps a lot of PTs and strength and conditioning coaches program for their clients, both athletic population as well as the general population. Matt Castoro is a strength and conditioning youtuber and physical therapist. He earned his bachelor's degree in exercise SC and Doctorate of Physical Therapy from the Ohio State University. Matt has worked in high school strength and conditioning, corporate fitness and personal training. He created the Movement System, an educational platform with the mission to make the world stronger. The Movement System helps fitness professionals pass the CSCS exam and learn about strength and conditioning. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that interview. Matt, thank you so much for hanging out with me today. I'm so excited for our conversation. How are you today?

Doing great. Thanks for having me on.

Oh, my pleasure. It's going to be so good. So for those of you who have never heard of Matt before or worked with you, I would love for you to share with us a little bit about who you are, who you serve and how you got there.

Sure. Yeah. So my name is Matt. I am the owner of the Movement System. I'm a physical therapist by trade, but I've actually never taken boards and never practiced physical therapy outside of clinicals because I kind of decided to go a different route after school and kind of enter the education space. And this is something that kind of evolved throughout my undergrad and then throughout my time after grad school or after undergrad and before grad school where I was in the strength conditioning space where I kind of got this interest in both rehab and strength Conditioning. So, you know, I spent time after undergrad kind of by choice, but kind of also by force because I didn't get accepted to any of my PT schools the first time around to actually go and head into strength conditioning and do high school strength conditioning and corporate fitness for a little while. I gained great experience there. Loved it. But then the second time around, I got accepted to PT school and decided, you know, I'd go back. And I got accepted to Pitt and then Ohio State and ended up choosing Ohio State, which is also where I went to undergrad. And then just throughout grad school, I tried to apply all the physical therapy and rehab content back to how does this relate to strength conditioning and started to really dive into that space and how that works together. So here we are.

Yeah, so here we are. And you were just telling me before we hit record, you and your wife, you moved to Vegas. So are you. How long have you been there?

Yeah. So after grad school, I just graduated in May of 2021. And throughout all of grad school, I was kind of putting content out in the space of rehab and strength conditioning. So I kind of got to be known as the guy who helps you pass the CSCS. And I have a whole Facebook group and a YouTube channel and a course and everything that helps people pass the CSCS exam. So I just took that and ran with it. I love teaching the details of muscle physiology and program design and nutrition and strength conditioning. So I kind of just ran with that. And, you know, it's a full time job just creating content for really people who want to pass the CSCS and even now continuing education after they pass the cscs. So we moved out to Vegas. This was a choice just based on, like spending eight years in Columbus, Ohio, on the east coast and just wanting to see some of the west coast. So we moved out there out here in May, and we've been loving it since. Just visiting all the national parks and like, you know, doing all kinds of stuff.

I love it. Okay, so can you tell us a little bit more? Like, we dive a little deeper into helping your coaches pass the csds. So what are some of the hardest components that coaches seem to struggle with when it comes to. To passing that test? What is first unpack that test? What is it? Why do people take it? And what are the struggles?

Yeah, the cscs, you know, if we're just using this acronym, I'll spell it out. So Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist Exam is something from the nsca, the National Strength Conditioning association. And it's really the gold standard in strength and conditioning as well as in the sports rehab space. So I don't know, maybe 25% of at least the students who come to me and like, do my course are actually either physical therapists or physical therapy students and want to obtain the cscs just to improve their sports rehab knowledge. And ironically, actually the sports clinical specialist board exam overlaps with the CSCS and there's similar questions. So those who are interested in down the road or maybe a residency or something in the sports rehab space and becoming a sports clinical specialist see that overlap as well. I think PT school is great for learning a lot of things about, you know, rehab and the body, but it's not great at learning program design for strength and conditioning. You know, you don't learn sets, reps, intensity periodization and progression schemes and loading protocols and progressive overload. You know, there's a lot of things that PT school is great for in terms of like muscle physiology. But some of the things that especially the PT side of the students struggle with is the program design side. And that's typically the most challenging part.

Of the exam is a program design.

Yeah, program design. And it's program design for plyometrics. You need to know plyometric physiology and then how to apply that with acute to chronic workload ratios and work to rest ratios and then energy system specific training. So there's a lot on program design side of things that is definitely outside the scope of like the traditional, like what we learn in school. And you kind of have to dedicate yourself to actually learning, you know, through the textbook and through other. Other means.

Ooh, so other means. Does the cscs Now, I have never taken this test. Now I have looked at it before and it's really kind of just even confusing to figure out what it is that you're signing up for. So I'm curious, are there practical components to that you have to pass when you're taking this test?

Sure, yeah. It's designed for strength conditioning coaches. So it's half scientific and half practical. And out of the exam it's split roughly 50, 50, where the first part is all scientific. Muscle physiology, exercise science, nutrition, sports psychology. That kind of thing is on the scientific side. You know, you take that for the first part, like an hour and a half or two hours or whatever, and then you take a little break and then you go back into the practical side of the exam. It's still on the computer, so you're still doing it as a multiple choice test. But it's very Video based and application based. So all the questions are like, okay, here's an athlete doing, you know, push, jerk or a cleaning, press cleaning, like a power clean or a full clean or a clean, a jerk or you know, some, some like Olympic movement or even like resistance training movements, back, squats, lunges, all that kind of thing. That would be like the exercise technique side of things. You also have like speed and agility. So you know, analyzing people's form for a sprint start or like a T test or the pro agility test or something like that. And then there's also like the program design aspect of things, which is like looking at strength conditioning programs and seeing like, is this the appropriate volume for like an in season, off season program? You know, what type of progression scheme or periodization is appropriate for this certain type of athlete? So you really have to understand like a lot of things to pass this test.

Ooh, it does sound very intense. And I've known that it's intense for a while. I guess one of the things that I'm also curious about is I realize and recognize that it is very specific to sports and to training an athlete. But I also feel like people who are, are also training the general population, they still seek to take out this test. So what are some of the components that people can pull from this test and apply it to your active population that isn't necessarily competitive, but active?

Yeah, sure. So I think, you know, one of the things that this test and just the knowledge about strength and conditioning in general is good for is like understanding how the physiology relates to like the practical side of things. And we don't always make that connection through like school or through like experience. Like you kind of have to have both. Like you have to have like the practical knowledge of like how the stretch shortening cycle works and the neuromuscular mechanisms of like activating muscle, like motor units and like the different muscle fiber types and all those things. And you have to understand that physiology, but then you have to understand exactly how that relates to training. So like, how do like heavy loaded exercises affect like muscle fiber recruitment? How do like high volume training programs, you know, relate to neuromuscular adaptations versus strength adaptations versus hypertrophy versus endurance adaptations. Like, and how do we peak that for athletes? So there's a lot that goes into it and I think the big benefit is just understanding how the physiology relates to the adaptations and how to practically achieve that. So that way even if you're not like training for a sport, you don't want to waste your Time whenever you're like in the gym, like, and a lot of people are because they don't understand the physiology side of things. So, you know, even just for your general fitness client, it's really good to make those connections.

I love that. And I'm also curious, you know, can you walk us through a little bit of your process? Because for me, in working with, I worked a lot with big box gyms, so I had newer trainers that were coming into the space. And oftentimes when I'm working with trainers and putting together their offer, one of the things that they really struggle with is this concept of program design and affirmative, effectively making the decisions to take someone from where they're at, whether it's pain rehab or, you know, they're just wanting to look, move and feel better to where it is that they want to be and how to really make those types of decisions. So I'm curious, can you walk us through your process and how your system carries a coach through that to make those decisions?

Yeah, yeah. And I think as a new coach, you're almost like you're making like hundreds of decisions a day. Right. So learning this, learning this, well, like learning program design really well helps you make like one decision that will make a hundred future decisions for you. And for the new coach who's just trying everything out, you know, they see something and then they immediately try it. And this is like pretty common. Like you do, you kind of do want to do this to some extent because you have to see what works and like gain experience. So one day you're doing waveloading and another day you're doing like high intensity work and then another day you're doing, you know, low intensity work combined with like strength and, and you're trying everything. But over time, and especially if you want to be a professional that's like very efficient with your work and getting the best results for your clients, you kind of have to create a system for yourself. And the way to do that is to learn like the fundamentals of program design. So like, what's an appropriate, for example, acute to chronic workload ratio? We know from the research that like, if you put more than about a 30% increase in volume into a client's program from one block to the next, you're probably going to start to increase the risk of injury without necessarily getting any additional results. So if we, and this is something that a new trainer might not understand entirely is that we can't just go from like a low volume strength program where we're trying to like, do one rep maxes and then just jump right into like high volume hypertrophy training. We need blocks of training that are structured strategically from one to the next to actually optimize results and not create burnout, not create over training. So like, having a system for that is really important. And just understanding the basics of maximal recoverable volume and acute to chronic workload ratios and just like good program design fundamentals. And that just comes over time with like learning about and seeing a lot of examples of good programs.

Yeah. So, okay, so I have so many questions to ask because one of the things that comes up, right, is that we hear things like, you know, RPE and then we also hear 30% volume additional from, you know, from block to block. But, you know, the question is, what's the baseline? How does someone assess whether or not they're actually, you know, over programming or they're adding too much volume too quickly? How do they assess that? What are the metrics that matter essentially in place for them to evaluate? Oh, I need to pull back or not. Is it just, you know, what is the adaptation that you're looking for? Adaptation response that you're looking for?

Sure. So let me walk you through. I guess my, my system. Like if I, you know, I'm not working with any personal training clients right now, but I did for about seven, eight years. And the system that I kind of went through was day one movement assessment. And this might be different for different trainers. Some people call it like a movement assessment, some people call it just like a starter session or like a, even a trial session will do this like for free. A kickoff, sure, like any of those words for it. But within that, you want to accomplish a couple things. You want to accomplish like trust and relationship with your client, which is like by far the most important thing. But then also from like a practical standpoint, you want to gain some information about what that client is currently doing. So are they going to the gym once a week or they, have they not been to the gym in six months? Are they training four times a week already? Like, what are they doing now? And then what do they want to get to? And then you just have to, as a, as a trainer, use your knowledge to bridge that gap. So if they're training once a week right now, it's not necessarily a bad thing to jump to three or four times a week training. It's just you have to make strategic training decisions based on what we know about muscle physiology. We know that eccentric exercises are very damaging and very taxing. So if you Just go from once a week where he was doing the elliptical for 30 minutes and then a circuit. You know, that's pretty easy exercise. You can't just crush him with a bunch of eccentrics. You know, you need to maybe develop like a concentric, focused block of training where you're doing sled pushes and you know, other like concentric based exercises and something that's like relatively low impact, three times a week, if that's how he wants to train. But then like over the next two, three months you can start to tweak out like where you take out one of your easier concentric exercises and you progress that to like a more intense exercise. And by doing this, not only are you going to decrease the risk of injury as they're starting this, this new program and increasing, you know, what they're doing, but you're also going to be more effective because if you just jump right into like something that's really high volume, high intensity, they're just gonna be really sore for a while and then they're gonna plateau. And that doesn't do any good for free, for adaptation and adherence or from like building a good relationship standpoint. So you want to do just enough that they can recover optimally and progress week to week and then as soon as they adapt to that, leave room. So that way you can progress.

I love that you talk about, and I love that you talk about progression and plateaus because I feel like, especially if you've been working with long term clients and I also love that you talk about buy in. So I've got two things to talk about, to ask you.

Sure, yeah.

But when you have. And the, and one of it, I'll start with the buy in is because I feel like in the fitness industry, especially in, in Gen Pop, if you are training, you're training in a gym or even if you're one step above, I'll even call Gen pop because I've got some clients that have high level gyms and they're not in a big box gym. However they are, their clients are still inundated with a whole bunch of group fitness, high intensity programming that is, that is not specific for them, that they just add in if they're seeing their trainer one to three times a week. Right. And so I'm curious, you know, if you're trying to really work on a progressive overload and you are doing repetition, how are you keeping your clients interested? How are you keeping that buy in when you're essentially very repetitive in, in your programing Potentially, I feel Like a lot of coaches don't are nervous to repeat the program because they don't want their client to get bored. So how do they, how do you combat and create that? Buy in for your client?

Yeah, I think that's a good, a good point because not all clients are going to respond to your system. So some clients are just going to constantly seek novelty and just want to do something very different, whether that be for like entertainment or just they think that's like what's going to work for them. So I think you have to understand that. And like some clients you might have to introduce more novelty to. But there are clients that I've had like that I had for two, three years that lost 40, 50, 60 pounds doing 13 exercises, you know, over six, over a six month block, you know, because you don't really need that much. Like if you do 13 exercises and then you, you cycle those in and out and really account well for your volume and your intensity, you could get great adaptations. Like it's, to me, I take a very scientific approach. So it's just like if I can see this specific progression that I'm looking for this block, then that's what we're working to and I communicate that very directly to a client. Like we're looking to go from whether it be like a movement, like some increasing like movement complexity or like movement skills. So we're like, we're looking to go from like a basic step up to you know, a reverse lunge. And we're going to just nail this reverse lunge, this block of training. And that's kind of like our goal. And the adaptation you're going to see from this is, you know, leg strength and you're going to feel more stable and that's going to set us up for our next block of training. And like we just put that out front. That's our, that's our goal or maybe, you know, a different client. Our goal is to go from a 200 pound squat to a 225 pound squat. And we're specifically doing a low volume block of training. We're specifically doing, you know, 70%, 80%, 70 to 80%, you know, whatever it is in this block of training because we're going for that goal. I think that this results in better adherence because at the end of the block I can show a measurable improvement to that client. Like here you could do this now that you couldn't do four weeks ago, or you hit this number that you didn't hit four weeks ago. Whereas any clients that I've tried to do just like random stuff with. They don't see that, you know, I mean, maybe they're making progression, maybe they're not. But if you can't like measure and show, show them something, it's, it's harder to see. So certainly some clients will seek novelty and you might have to adapt to that and, you know, program with maybe a wider variety of exercises if you're, if you're trying to reach that client. But also like, you'll find the clients that work with you and work with your system and buy into that as long as you can show them results.

Well, you have to tell us what the Magic 13 exercises are now.

Oh man, it was like patterns, like a squat, push, pull, hinge. So I think the clients that I used less exercises with generally have either had less equipment availability. Like they're trying to do all their workouts at home with like a certain set of equipment or like a large portion of their exercises at home. Or I've had some clients with like some sort of like disability or something like that that they have like a fairly limited ability to like do a lot of exercises. But we can still get like a lot of results out of what they can do. But I would say like, for most clients over six months, maybe we're getting like 20 or 25 exercises.

Yeah, that's amazing.

But you could make great progress with like very few exercises. You'd be surprised.

Yeah. Well, and I'm also curious, so now with those clients, how are you, how are you varying your volume or your, your intensity if they only have limited access? Because your intensity isn't just, you can't just keep adding weight. How, if they don't have access or are you like, no, you have to, you have to go buy more, more.

More dumbbells or something. Yeah, no, yeah, there's a lot of ways to progress. Like you could think about like time under tension as one. So like you could just, instead of going from like, I don't know, a two second eccentric, a zero second pause, and a one second concentric, you can go to like a three second eccentric, a two second pause, and then a one second concentric. And now all of a sudden you've added like 20, 30% or whatever to the time under tension. And that's a big progression right there. Or you could just, you know, progress, you know, other variables of exercise, like lever arms, you can make longer, you can make, you can make the workout go from like, I don't know, 10 reps to like 60 seconds where you're getting like the first week in 60 seconds, you're getting 14 reps, then 18, then, you know, 20 over that block of training. So there's a, like, there's a lot that you could do to progress beyond, like, just adding weight.

How long are your blocks?

I always do a month or four weeks. And this is just from a practical standpoint that, you know, like at the end of the month, like, you can kind of test and see. And you might even have like, you know, because four weeks is 28 days. You might even have like a day or two off where you can do kind of like some just like, random stuff. Like if that client wants to swim once or they want to go do something like a circuit workout or like something like that, and then like, start to the new block, then that way they get like a day or two, do something new, and then boom, get back on it. You can do six weeks, though, and that, that works as well.

So, you know, this is a great segue. Because I was curious. You were talking about, you know, I remember I. I'm circling back because I said I had multiple questions. So you were talking about progress and plateaus. And so I'm curious, you know, there is a, you know, the body is designed to want to stay in homeostasis basis. Right. So how. How do you. Is it. And we also know that your progress isn't always going to be linear, like just week to week, week over week. You're just, you know, especially too, if we're dealing with weight loss, because that's what I used to work on, so I'm familiar with that. But I'm curious, you know, how do you decide what is considered a plateau or that this is natural, normal? Like, what are some of the ups and downs that you're looking at and assessing when you're deciding how to progress?

Sure. Yeah. So let's look at this, and I think a really good example of this is, like, what's the difference between, like, what like a bodybuilder might do, like, they might do, for example, over a year, eight blocks of like, hypertrophy and muscle building, and then like, four blocks of, like, strength exercise where they're, like, really working on strength. A powerlifter might do the exact opposite, where they're doing, like, eight blocks of strength work and they're really trying to focus on strength and like, four blocks of, like, muscle. Muscle building for weight loss. What does that look like? You have 12 blocks to work with. If you're, like, talking about 12 months you're probably not going to lose weight all 12 blocks or like, all 12 months. But, like, realistically, most people can for like 8, 9, 10 months see weight loss and then just have a few blocks throughout the year where they're focused on something else that's a positive physiological change. And often I'm not like, focused on the weight loss numbers. Usually the clients focus on that enough so I'm not like, pushing for that more. So, like, I'll focus on like, some other metric. Like, can we improve, like, how fast you walk three miles? You know, like how, how, like how long you can walk on like a 5% incline at a certain heart rate. Like, there's like so many other variables that you can work on and strengths, obviously one of them. But typically for clients, like, I'll have three or so blocks in a row where they'll try to like, focus on the goal, the primary goal being weight loss. And then we'll try to program, program like one block. And if you could do this around like Christmas time or like a vacation, it's a really good way to like, take stress off of them as well. We're like, we're spending this month on strength. Like, we're probably not going to see weight loss this month, but we're going to set your foundation. Like, and there's a lot of research to show that, like, we need these blocks where we're not focused on weight loss from a metabolic health standpoint and to make sure that we're not just plateauing. So, and this is really where I've seen clients go from. Like, honestly, people reached out to me, like, when they got to that plateau. And this is what helps them break through. That is like having times or blocks of training where you are focused on weight loss. And this is a tough sell, especially for clients who are already seeing progress. They're like, I just want to keep the progress going. And I'm like, I get it. But, like, this is what we need. So. And if you build that trust, you can do that. But like having those blocks of strength or muscle building or endurance or something like that, where you're, where you're focused on something else and then you return to the primary goal of weight loss.

You know, it is interesting. You know, we're talking about weight loss because, you know, 88% of Americans are still, Americans specifically are still metabolically inflexible. So of course, this is a predominant conversation when we're talking about people who were once active or maybe they are active. And then, not to mention We've got all this pandemic, pandemic stuff so that there's just so much to unpack. But you know what I've noticed in people is that once they hit this plateau for a certain amount of time, then they start making, they start hurting their metabolism even worse. Like just cutting calories, even making it, making the journey back to progress almost harder for themselves. So how long do you let your, so do you, do you work at a maintenance or a strength strength block for a month before you start trained to go back?

Yeah, I think that's, that's generally a good idea. Um, again it's going to be specific to each client. Like, or do they have like some like competitive endurance goal as well as like a weight loss goal or are they really just there for the weight loss? And if they are just there for the weight loss, can we over time show them that there are these other benefits that they're there for? Like because once, once you see it, clients will adhere to and understand the positive effects on mental health and strength and just like other things that they'll notice in their day to day life that they're getting from it.

So mood, stress reduction, sleeping, all different kinds of benefits. Weight loss can often be the ripple benefit where that's, that's a side effect to the actual outcome. Buy in. Right. Um, so you know, what are some of the things that you've noticed? Oh, well I'll, I'm going to put a pin in that one. I'll come back because I'm curious. You started talking about different types of athletes and the blocks that you are making for them in, in terms of you know, in season, off season, what are the athletes that you primarily, who are the athletes that you primarily work with? And do you treat your gen pop clients as like an athlete? Like do you build in, in and off seasons and on seasons for them?

Yeah, that's, that's a really good question. So I think overall like over the last five years I worked with about 50% general population clients who had like general goals. A lot of like you know, just because I was in the health system, you know, being in physical therapy school, I got to meet a lot of like physicians and like, like nurses, health, health professionals who just had like general fitness goals. But then just through social media and whatnot, I got to work with a lot of like endurance athletes and you know, other other forms of athletes and that was like half of my clientele. I think for the general population clients it's important to have blocks of training Whether that be seasonally or not. And you know, it might not sound like a big difference for like us if a client's in winter and they like want to go to the gym like, and do more like strength training. And then in the summer they want to get out and do more like softball league or walking more outside. Like to me that's like there's, there's their season. Like we want to, let's go, let's, let's do it. Like let's peak for your, you know, summer softball league or your wedding that you have to go to in July. Like, I'll use anything as an excuse as long as like, that'll get them to like work hard for it. So literally attending a wedding could be there in season and we'll peak for that, like, if it's a general fitness client, because it's just more exciting. Um, yeah. And you know, peaking is fun. Peaking is usually something you do for like one to three weeks, maybe like one, maybe a block, like four weeks. Uh, but usually for each peak there's like, I don't know, four months of like base or like building work. And this is for endurance athletes. This is for like strength and power athletes. And you have to build those base physiological adaptations, like building your lean body mass, building your, like, your muscle mass and your strength. The neuromuscular adaptations associated with that, like, that takes like four months. And maybe that takes the form of like primarily being in that like 8 to 10 rep range. Like just doing like a moderate to high volume of work. And then over time, as we approach the season, we're typically, if we're peaking for like power especially, we're going to decrease that. We're going to, you know, focus on like moving faster. Like, let's move like, let's, let's incorporate like more like plyometrics, for example. If it's like an athlete side of things, if it's endurance a little bit different, which we could talk about if you want to. Like, often they're doing like more like race specific efforts. Like, you know, if they're training for like. Yeah, yeah. If they're training for like a half marathon, for example, we're gonna like nail in their half marathon pace and do some like, maybe lactate threshold specific work as they approach that race. Um, so that's different for everyone. But like, as much as I can, I try to get even like a general population client to like approach things as if they have like a season or like something to like look forward to and like work For.

Yeah, well, and that helps keep them motivated. It helps me feel motivated at least. Right. Because you know, we're all human beings having. Going through a human experience. Not everyone is super excited about working out all the time. So what does your off season look like? You're programming for your off season. And I'm also curious, you know, four months for neural adaptation. That's how long you spend in that.

Well, yeah, four months is like usually like base work. And actually I would say that's more like hypertrophy, muscle building specific for most people because that's like metabolically healthy. It's like moderate to high volume where you can like recover from it well and like get like good long term adaptations. Um, you know, hypertrophy and strength are something that like, once you build it, it lasts a fairly long time. Like if we're thinking about like athletes specifically here. So you could, you could build muscle and not do like a ton of work. Like do like once a week, twice a week training and maintain muscle mass for a long time. But if you're trying to increase your sprint speed or your vertical jump, that's very transient. It doesn't last very long. Like as soon as you stop training, that, that tapers off. So typically like speed and strength and power are things that are very like in season specific or like late preseason specific because those gains are very transient. Oh yeah. Where we were going with offseason though. Personally I do like endurance events. So you know, I am training for like last year I did Ironman 70.3 Arizona. Super fun. A lot of training for that though. Like I was training.

I'm laughing only because you're like, oh, I'm in my off season. I'm gonna do an Ironman. I'm like, oh, you mean my.

Okay, so no, yeah, well, okay. Ironman Arizona is like in October. So like it kind of actually is a little bit in off season. But that's only because it's in the desert and you have to do it in October, you can't do it in July, which is like the peak of endurance seasons. Um, but yeah, anyway, like off season you're typically doing like higher volume training anyway because like you can handle like a lot of volume, a lot of base work as an endurance athlete at least. So like it's not very hard. Like you're just hopping on the bike, like chilling for like an hour, an hour and a half. Like if you're, if you're training for like an Ironman distance type race, um, if you're like a Marathoner or a half marathoner. You know, this might look different to everyone, but like maybe you're at like 20 miles a week or something like that. 25 miles a week. It really depends like how you split that. Um, but yeah, like in an off season is also a good time to build strength as an endurance athlete. So like I'll do often, I'll often pair like lower intensity aerobic work, but like higher volume low intensity aerobic work. So like longer runs, longer rides with higher intensity strength work and usually that goes well together because low intensity endurance doesn't really tax you that much from like a neuromuscular standpoint. So you have room to adapt from like pretty high intensity strength training. Whereas as you approach your race and you're doing very high intensity aerobic work that's like race specific, that's going to be very taxing on the body. You're naturally going to have to let your endurance or your strength, I mean, fall off a little bit. Like maybe you're still doing some like muscular endurance work and like, you know, specific work to like, you know, posture and like running economy and stuff like that. But you're probably not going to be like under a barbell doing like heavy squats and also doing like really heavy interval and race specific training. It's just a recipe for like over training.

Yeah. And so I'm actually really interested and curious to your perspective on this because I'm curious about where the prehab comes in. And I call it pre have because I call it preventative. Right, it's the preventative work. Because what are things that I think is just different for an athlete? One of the many, but is that when you're an athlete and you're a high performing athlete, you're doing repetitive pattern patterning over and over and over again. Whether you're under the bar, lifting really heavy and you're trying to, you know, max out your reps in those three lifts or you're a marathon runner. So how does the preventative care come into play in your programming to help support their joints, help support their, their movement patterns to prevent injury?

Sure, yeah. And this really highlights the need for an off season. So like after I got done with my ironman, for example, I just took like four weeks where I really didn't do much in terms of like biking, running, swimming. It was more just strength training or just like general movement patterns and general like healthy things. Like because your body can only take those very sports specific demands of like racing and training for so long until you need like a break, like mentally and physically. So, but once you get back to like, your training and you want to like, for example, have five, six months straight of doing like biking, running, swimming, those are repetitive tasks. So you're probably going to have to do some amount of prehab. Um, I'll just talk specifically about my stuff because that's, you know, at least going to give you an example. So I did a lot of like long lever hamstring bridges where, you know, like. And actually I will say first that I had a coach. And my coach was Chris Johnson. He's a physical therapist out of Seattle, super smart guy. And as a coach, I had a coach. I think, you know, if you can, if you can manage it, like, a lot of people can really benefit from a coach. Because, you know, my first ironman, I tried to train myself and even though I know a lot of these things, it's really hard to get yourself to adhere to it because, like, once you feel good, you just want to keep pushing yourself. Keep pushing yourself and you can run into trouble that way, which I did. So this, this time around, having a coach and having him like implement into my training peaks, which is like a calendar for endurance athlete training. You just worked right into that, into that calendar, like long lever hamstring bridges, for example, like step ups with, you know, a tempo or like a, like a metronome. Some band work, some closed chain band work I found to be really effective to where you're like, maintaining your knee and hip position on one leg, but then also kind of using the other legs to tap out and back. I think he calls them lateral toe taps. And I found that to be really, really effective because it's a closed chain long time under tension exercise to develop muscular endurance, specifically of the transverse plane muscles like your hip rotators. And that really helped me a lot with like knee alignment position and like hip and pelvic stability endurance for like long runs. And that really got me out of like hot water in terms of like some knee pain that I was running into whenever I wasn't doing this prehab hab work. So like band work and these mini band stuff and like bridges and bridge variations, step ups. Marching. Marching was huge, like, heavy, loaded marching. People don't know what marching does from a physiological, like, adaptation standpoint. So they don't do it. Like it's very obvious what bicep curls do. They like, make your biceps bigger, so everyone does them. But marching helps you improve, like your posterior chain and your postural muscle muscle endurance. Right? So Your ability to like maintain level hips under load, you know, and there's a ton of other adaptations from marches that I actually wrote a whole blog post, a whole Instagram post on it. I'll probably do a YouTube video at some point on it. Because marches are great and like, people need to know the adaptations from them to like be able to have a reason for programming them and doing them. But yeah, all those like, rehab exercises, really, really effective.

I'm also curious to go for you to go deeper on the marches because I've done marches too, and I have had moments of like the. I. I've had moments of like, I don't even know what I'm doing or why am I doing this? It doesn't feel like anything. It's almost, I feel like an idiot. Right? Like, it's almost like what are you supposed to be going after when you're doing the marches? So I definitely want to, I want you to expand on that. I'm curious your take on this.

Yeah, yeah, you do need pretty heavy load for marches to be effective. Like if you're holding ten pounds in each hand, probably not doing like a whole lot, but like, I think the, the goal that we shoot for as endurance athletes is like around at least 50% body weight total. So like, if I'm 200 pounds, I want like a 50 pound dumbbell in each hand, for example, doing these and like, if you can, getting to like even like 75% body weight plus. So I think I got up to doing these with like maybe like 70 pounds in each hand or something like that for like 60 to 90 seconds.

And you've got so many other positions though that you can be, you can be holding these weights, you got, you know, suitcase, and it's going to have a different, you're going to be going after a different thing depending on where these weights are, right?

Yeah, I will say like 90% of the time I just did bilateral marches and you can definitely do like the variations like you do offset marches where like you're doing like a suitcase. Um, and there are some different adaptations for that. And for example, like if you were a, I don't know, like a rower, like you, you had to like have a lot of core strength that might be beneficial. Or if you were, you know, like a rotational athlete, like a lacrosse baseball player, I could see like programming a larger amount of unilateral carries for that specific, for like the specific adaptations for them. Because you're going to be taxing like that, that oblique system a little bit More like internal external oblique of your, you know, opposite sides. But for running specifically, like you just want a lot of load through one leg while balancing for about like three seconds in the air. And that's really the adaptations that we're chasing. Like we're chasing the adaptation of like being able to stand on like your left leg with your knee and your right hip like a 90 degrees of flexion. So like you can imagine like left legs straight, you're standing really tall, like shoulders are back, like upright torso there. And then your right hip and knee are at like 90 degrees of flexion and you're holding that for like about three seconds. Then you take a small step forward. Typically I'm trying to land on the ball of the foot here and doing it with the opposite leg, like three second hold with a really heavy weight. And what you're doing here is like you're, you're training the endurance of your lateral hip in the actual way that you do running. Like you're, when you're running the. And like you can think about this from like a like physiological demand perspective. Whenever you're running, the load on your hip is very similar to like very heavy weights in your hand. Like doing a minivan clamshell or like a lateral like leg lift. You know, just on the ground where it's open chain, it's activating the same muscle. The percent of maximum voluntary isometric contraction is higher. As if that matters. Like we do a bunch of research studies, we find that. But it's open chain, it's not very movement pattern specific. So it doesn't translate well to running. So there's a ton of runners who go and have this like, you know, it band type pain or like lateral hip issues or like knee issues that probably stem from something at the hip. And they get prescribed like a lot of these exercises that are like open chain a high percentage of glute activation, but it doesn't translate to the specific movement demands of running. Whereas if we can do like heavy loaded marches, the joint, it's joint angle specific and it's loaded in a specific way that it replicates like the endurance and power demands of the running gate.

Oh my God. This is just the scratching the surface. Yeah, I was going to say you're just scratching the surface on this. I also want. You did say this. So I want to circle back on this. I think is really important is that coaches have coaches. Right. You don't see dentists trying to give themselves root canals. Right.

So.

Right. So I just think it's just. You're gonna push, you're gonna get pushed, you're gonna learn, you're gonna. It's just. It's just important to have somebody's eye on you. And sure, yeah, you could video yourself doing it, but who has all that time in the world to not only perform it, then assess it? Like, no one. No one. So I just think that's really important. So I'm curious, you know, as you grow and as you develop and I want to be mindful of your time. So as you grow in your. And as you learn and develop and do research, what are some of the ways that you continue to sharpen the saw? What are some of your favorite continuing education programs or places that you learn more about your. Your specific field?

Yeah, you know, so, I mean, I'm interested in the rehab space as well. I think I just had, like, a lot of opportunity to create content around strength conditioning, and I was kind of like, I had a large demand for that, like, out of school. So that's kind of where I've been for the last year. But, like, long term, I actually do want to get into, like, you know, teaching and learning about, like, movement assessment and, like, other. Other things that relate to rehab a bit more, too. I think I learned. I learned really well from, like, applying things. So, like, as soon as I read something, whether that be, like, a book or a podcast or, you know, like, even someone's, like, post or blog or anything about, like, you know, anything related to, like, what I'm doing, I, like, pause that and immediately think, like, how can I apply that? Like, can I write a post about that? Can I, you know, tell my followers about that? And I think that's been, like, really, really beneficial because it's kind of boring to, like, read about power and, like, work equations, which is, like, part of the cscs, like work and time and whatever. But, like, if I can read an article, and I did the other day from, like, LinkedIn that showed about, like, Alabama football players putting out, like, 2,000 watts and at 65% of one rep max on barbell back squats and, like, saw this interesting graph, and then I could show that to my Facebook group, and then I could show that to my Instagram followers, and then I could explain it on a YouTub, and then I could relate that to, like, oh, well, what's the wattage of, like, a kettlebell swing? And, like, look up the research on that and then talk about how, you know, 300 watts during a kettlebell swing for 50 seconds is more Specific to cyclists and, you know, these, these barbell movements with high wattage at this lower percentage of, you know, allows you to peak for different sports. Again, I can like, dive into that and get excited about it. I think showing, like, showing it, showing that to others and like figuring out how I can teach that is like, it really makes it interesting and exciting. So that's, that's what I try to do. And I, I put everything out there on my YouTube for. Especially in like Instagram and everything for people because that's what helps me learn. So, and just getting feedback from that and like, people will ask questions, then I'll dive into that and it just, it kind of goes and, you know, feeds forward.

Love, I guess my process right now, that's so good. And I love that. And I think that's an. I think that's important. I think too, especially, you know, people who are paying attention to your work. Right. They are already high level. They're not looking for, like, the quick fix. They're wanting to really dive deep. They really, they're wanting to learn. And I think sometimes we can get stuck in the learning process because good coaches tend to fall under the coach's curse of it depends. And so they never feel like they're enough now when the truth is that you need to learn, you need to apply to learn. No one learns how to swim from reading a book. You got to get in the water.

Yeah, yeah. And just like, that's really important for coaches. Like, and I try to make that a point with, like, all of my content is like, how do you apply this? Because, like, it's one thing to read the book, but, like, actually being able to apply this is really the next level. So, like, you know, my latest course is actually about program design specifically. And, you know, I have, I have my course for, like, helping people pass the cscs. Ton of people have benefited from that. But then you actually have to do continuing education, like, keep learning. And, you know, even after you do the cscs, you don't really have, like, a great grasp on program design. Like, you understand, like, how it relates to athletes. And CSCS is very specific to, like, what works for, like, groups of college athletes. But like we talked about, like, not everyone is applying this to groups of college athletes. A lot of us are working with individual clients. A lot of us are working with, like, in a rehab setting. So, you know, that's why the continuing education course that I decided to create was about program design, which is called Program Design 101. And it's specifically, it's very applicable. And I think this is what makes it different from a lot of other continuing education courses is that I spend an hour and go through the current hypertrophy literature. So a lot of those studies are 20, 15, 2016, 18. So they're even like, since a lot of the CSCS content's been out and it covers RPE and RPM, all, you know, reps in reserve and things like that. But you learn for an hour about, like, hypertrophy research in, like, maximal recoverable volume. And I show you some charts that help, like, kind of simplify it and give you that knowledge, but then you immediately apply it. So I give you like an example program, a, you know, a template, and then immediately you write a hypertrophy program for yourself. And then you go onto the strength section, do the same, the power section, do the same, the endurance section, and do the same. So the way at the end of this course, instead of, you know, just getting your, your, your. Your continuing education hours and a certificate, you actually have a portfolio of programs that you can then go use for your clients and use it as different blocks of training and you write it specifically for your clients. So, like, to me, that makes, like, way more sense to, like, do continuing education in this way. That's, like, very applicable and very useful learning. I always focus on, like, learning just in time, just in time to apply it, rather than learning things just in case you might need it someday, you know?

Yeah, so true and so, so good. And I think important. I think it's something that our industry misses. And I also like that. I mean, it's just. It's awesome. It sounds awesome. And of course, we'll link all that up in the show notes as well. So if. If people are curious about learning more about you and about this and about your programs, where can I send them?

You know, I'm on all the platforms pretty much as the movement system, you know, YouTube, Instagram. My Facebook group is where I really try to really get, like, very like, intimate with people. I get like more Facebook lives and like, daily questions and stuff like that. So a lot of people join that to study for the cscs, but then also just to continue to improve their strength conditioning knowledge. There's like a lot of PTS and PT students in there as well, but it's just called the Strength and Conditioning Study Group. If you search that on Facebook, you'll find it. And I also put a link to that on all my YouTube videos. But yeah, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, those are kind of the primary platforms and also have a podcast as well. It's called the Movement System Podcast.

Cool, cool, cool, cool. Okay, so we'll make sure that we link all of that up. You know, I'll say one of the things too, that you said I think is really important and I. We can end on this is that. Is that there is a difference between under understanding something and then really knowing it. Right. I could explain to someone how to lose £100 in an hour, but that doesn't mean that they're going to lose £100 in an hour.

Yeah.

So I think that that practical application and having the systems and the support to really help craft this, learn it, know what to do when things are going, you know, sideways, because they will inevitably go sideways because we're human beings, no one knows what we know. No one, no one's identical. No experience is going to be one way. So. So I just think that's really powerful and important. So thanks for all you do for our industry.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on.

Yeah, for sure. Okay. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

All right. Yeah, take care.

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