The Cues to Help Your Clients Move Better with Logan Dubé

You're listening to the PT Profit podcast, episode number 254. Today I'm sitting down with Coach Logan and we're discussing the cues to help your clients move better. Are you ready? Let's get started.

Hi, I'm Beverly Simpson, former fitness manager turned online personal training business owner. And this podcast is where smart fitness professionals, including trainers and clinicians, discover how to increase client performance in movement, package and position their products and services, and get out of their own way so that they can increase their revenue to live a life that they love without sleazy sales. Welcome to the PT Profit Podcast.

What's up, coach? Thank you so much for pushing play on another episode of the PT Profit Podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Simpson, and today I'm bringing to you a very special guest coach Logan, who is the director of education for the Pain Free Performance Special Specialist certification. A former retired soccer goalkeeper who has been in the industry for 20 years and successfully coaches trainers on how best to get their client to the desired outcome. Now, this episode is really awesome. We broke down a lot of really tangible components using a lot of their structures and systems inside of the Pain Free certification. And in today's episode, Logan really broke down the queuing pillars and the systems that they use to really help their clients execute the desired positions and movements so the clients actually get better results. They also unpacked the pattern pyramid and a systematic framework to carry someone who's never heard of you before and actually turn them into a client using a very simple framework that includes movement to actually create an empowered environment for the client to make a decision on moving forward with you as a client. So without further ado, let's go ahead and roll that in.

Interview.

What's up, Logan? Thanks so much for coming to the show today. How are you?

I'm doing great, Beverly. Thanks for having me.

Oh, I'm of course. My pleasure. I'm super excited for today's conversation. So for those of us who have not been introduced to the pleasure of your work, can you please share a little bit about who you are, who you serve, and how you got there?

Sure, yeah. My name is Logan Dubay. I'm currently the Director of education for the Pain Free Performance Specialist certification. And so really, how I got here, I mean, I serve personal trainers in general fitness professionals. I still work with clients because I love it. So I still do that layer of the job. And how I got here is, I mean, kind of by accident. I was an athlete and that was how I first got into the gym. Really was wanting to strengthen my body and be a better athlete, avoid injury. And at the point where I finally retired from what felt like a pretty long athletic career, I kind of accidentally became a trainer because at the time that I got into it, there weren't a lot of people doing that. I had some, some people that I was working with in group fitness ask for some help and I thought, sure, I guess I can show you what I know. And then people just kept asking. And so at a certain point, I sort of took a look at the fact that I was getting paid more in grocery and coffee gift cards than I was from the real job that I was doing. And I thought, well, geez, maybe I should make the switch. So I feel like I've gotten to where I am as an educator from just a really step by step, authentic, living the journey kind of place. And I think ultimately what made me a great trainer was that I loved to teach. And so ending up as an educator is kind of just now, instead of teaching clients, I teach trainers. And it's felt like a really natural kind of step by step over the last 20 years.

Also, you've been in the industry now for 20 years?

A little bit. I'm never quite sure how to share that number. It either makes me sound really old or people don't believe me because my face doesn't match many years. But yeah, it's coming up on over two decades now, which has been a surprise and a joy for sure.

Oh, that's amazing. So now is your, is the certification that you are a run of, that you're part of, is this through an in person facility? Are you running your own gym, are you working or are you working 100% online now?

So I did run an in person personal training school for about five years and I did a lot of internal education for a company that had at one point up to about 300 personal trainers. So I've been in the commercial space for a lot of my career at this moment right now. The PPSC is a certification that was created by Dr. John Russin, who's a pretty famous bald dude on Instagram. Just kidding. He developed a training system and got some really great results out of it, helped a lot of people and decided that he wanted to help improve the industry as a whole. And part of that was educating trainers so that they could do a better job of helping people. So I work as a part of his education team and we mostly teach live and in person weekend certifications. That's the bulk of it. We kind of think that you learn better if you have a chance to try the thing, do the thing, feel the thing, coach the thing.

Right.

But of course, we also do some online stuff and we try to provide more support beyond just that weekend by having a pretty robust online platform for our trainers to use. So it's, it, it feels like a little bit of both, but really the, the crux of it for me is still being able to show up live. And, and I find that that's going to be the best way to, to really help people.

I love that. Okay, so now does your servication really serve people who have been in the industry for a while and they're looking for continuing education? Or is it more for the people who are like, I'm a fitness gym rat and I'm considering switching careers. Or, or does it.

I love that question. You know what? I think what it comes down to for me is we serve people who are looking for a better way or looking for answers, looking to navigate problems. When we say we are the pain Free Performance Specialist certification, part of what is inherent in that title is we want to help trainers address pain. But there's lots of different kinds of pain.

Right?

There could be the my knees hurt when I'm squatting type of pain and there could be the I used to be an athlete in my 20s and now I'm in my 40s and I can't really do that type of workout anymore. But I do prioritize my health and my fitness, but I'm going to have to find a different way to do it. And there's a sort of, there's some growing pains around shifting how you train to be a better fit for your goals and your lifestyle over the course of your lifespan.

Right.

In all fairness, a part of how I address things like learning how to screen, assess, coach, cue and program movement is that if you're a really passionate fitness professional and you really want to help people, but you only have three or four clients, the pain point is you're having a hard time making a go of being a full time fitness professional. And so how does learning any amount of content help you bridge the gap to My schedule's full, I charge what I'm worth, I have some client retention. I can see making a career out of this. So I think we really have something for everybody. If you're new or trying to get into the industry, you need to learn some stuff like what proper movement is and how to cue it and how to program it and how to screen for things when to refer out when you can keep people. Right. So there's some really practical stuff for new trainers. But then we also get feedback from a lot of career trainers, a lot of veterans, they come to our course maybe because they need CECs, maybe because they're interested in what John's doing. And they come away from the weekend and say to us, you know what, there's a couple things that were brand new to me, but in general, I'm familiar with a good chunk of what you taught, but I got reminded of stuff I forgot I knew or you systemized it in a way that's really going to help me navigate and use what I know more effectively. So I think it's kind of cool to be able to work with anyone at any point in their career and still be able to offer up some golden nuggets, so to speak.

I love that. So if you wouldn't mind, I have two questions. This is. This is a bad habit of mine, so I'm going to ask one at a time. I usually am like, oh, just a couple things. So the first is that I'd love for you, you kind of started to talk about it and I'd love for you to dive just a little bit deeper in terms of how you unpack and define the word pain. Because I think in addition to trainers and coaches wanting to navigate dealing with pain, there's also a lot of fear around what is in scope and what is out of scope. And you started to talk about, when do I refer out? How do you really, starting from that beginning, define the word pain and navigate it.

Yeah. So I'll give a little context just before I answer your question. I'm a personal trainer. I've got a bunch of personal training certifications. I've learned a lot of stuff, some which I can use in my scope and some which I realized this is interesting, but I can't use it. I sort of navigated that frustration for myself in my own career. But part of what I like about the PPSC team is some of us that are really proud to be trainers. And then there are also clinicians, physical therapists that make up the team. And in my mind, that's actually the sort of perfect way to do it. Personal trainers have the ability to impact a lot of people on a really big scale, partly because we see our clients more than almost any other type of healthcare practitioner that they might see. But that means that we are then also sometimes the person that people come to first. And there's a lot we can do. But every now and again, they need to see someone else first. And so the same partnership that we have on our education team, where we work together to deliver our content, is kind of the thing we are trying to help trainers build for themselves, which is that sense of when can you keep the client in front of you and how can you help them, versus when do you need to go refer or recommend or lean on a network that's going to be able to give this person the proper care. So how do you do that? Well, that's really what we've tried to create in this system is when someone first comes to me, rule number one is, I mean, don't hurt them. Right? We're pain free. But rule number two is like, we empower our clients. So we're not there to say, as a result of this screen, I have determined that this is unavailable for you. You are broken in these ways. You cannot do X, Y and Z. Z for you guys, Zed for me. So really inherently important to the system is that if someone's going to be brave enough and step out of the front door and walk into the gym and ask for help, which is already a huge win, right, Then we want to make sure that we have a way to help them continue moving forward from that moment, not send them back into their house, back to sitting on their couch, back to being in pain. To circle back to your question, what is pain? Well, pain is actually a normal part of the human experience. 1. We want to get past the idea that pain on any level is inherently bad. Really, what it is is it's a message. It's information. If I am walking through my house and I whack my hand on the edge of the table, I'm going to experience some pain. And that's probably a reminder to me to be a little more careful the next time I walk through my house, not swing my hands so wild. So from the level of pain is information. Part of what we're trying to help trainers do is gather the information about pain that allows us to decide, can I work with you or should I refer you out? And really what that is, without exceeding scope, is you walked into the gym today. That's a great start. Are you comfortable trying a little bit of movement? The choice is yours. Yes or no? Yes. Great. Please try this movement. Let me show you how I'd like you to do it. I'm observing as a trainer, the joints, the alignment, the structure, the movement.

Right.

I'm observing and gathering information through my own expertise. And I'm similarly going to say to you, hey, how did that feel? And between what I'm observing and what you're telling me, we've created this very easy to use system that allows me to go at least step one inside of my own scope on saying, hey, you know what? I think I can work with you. Here's what I'd like to do. Let's go ahead and give that a try. And what we recommend is that inside the system, if we work together for three to four weeks and we start feeling better, that's really great information that we're moving in the right direction. If we are starting to work with someone and all of a sudden it's not feeling good, it feels worse, we're going to say, hey, no worries, I'm going to have you go and talk to this person that I know they're going to give us some extra help. Or if we get to the end of that three, four weeks and there's no improvement, then we might also at that point say, you know what? I really just want to give you the best help possible. Why don't we go check in with this person, get some extra information, make sure there isn't something in the way of us making progress. So really what we hope that that does is removes the fear of someone walking in the door saying, I'd really like help losing weight, but my knee hurts. Oh, oh, no, you better go talk to someone. No, there's a bunch of stuff we can do first. And that to me, is the part where we're empowering people because they came to ask for our help. They came to us first. There's a measure of the help that they're looking for, which is, please help me get moving and be proactive and take care of myself instead of right away because of the presence of pain, which could be totally normal and not harmful, Instead of right away having to go into the medical system, which is slow and scary and expensive and kind of disempowering because of that big, huge gap between the client's knowledge and the professional's knowledge, right? Like we're kind of in the middle and we get to say it's a smaller step forward to get started with me, as long as it's safe to do so. Here's what that looks like that's so powerful.

And I also encourage my people to remember that everybody is operating at some level from mistakes and misconceptions. And what personal trainers often miss is that they are the first line of defense more times than not, because I'm more likely to go visit a personal trainer than I am to go to physical therapy because we have misconceptions of what we think that process is going to be like and what is required in order to qualify for physical therapy. So I think that that's really powerful. So I'd love for you to share, if you wouldn't mind, a little more on, on your actual process and your system. It sounded, from what you were saying is that it, look, it sounds like it's a combination of screening, programming, cueing. I'd love for you to kind of walk us through your framework, if you wouldn't mind.

I'm feeling really good that you pulled out those three things. That means I'm doing a good job of explaining stuff. So nice work. You nailed it. That's essentially it. I kind of say that there's two sets of three. So the first set of three, when someone first walks in the door and this is a little bit almost the, the client acquisition business strategy, how do I get them to say yes thing? We take that first point of contact or that first in person point of contact and we say, look, we're going to take this hour, let's say it's an hour. We're going to take this hour. We're going to break it into three parts. One part is an interview, right? Like I need to ask you some questions, I need to learn what's important to you. I need to understand why you're here today and what is going to feel like a successful hour.

Right.

I could do a bunch of really cool stuff, but if it didn't meet your expectations, it's really hard to get a yes at the end of that, right? So there has to be a build trust, build rapport, communicate, create some level of comfort right at the beginning and that's really important. Then the second portion needs to be a workout experience. I talk about it being the test drive. I'm not going to go buy a car sight unseen because it looks pretty on Instagram. I want to sit in the driver's seat, I want to take it out on the road and I want to make sure that I feel comfortable right in that driving experience. So that portion, the workout portion, we spend pretty much our whole certification, our whole two day cert, really trying to dive as deep as possible into all of the ways to make that workout part successful. And we call it a plan smarter strategy session. But really all it is is their first workout. And what it needs to be is a combination of see how they move, right? So screen or Assess, depending on exactly what techniques you're going to use. There needs to be an element of teaching them what they need to know to move better in order to train with you.

Right.

And then there needs to be an element that actually feels like a workout. And the reason why we say that is because you can screen and educate and the client never breaks a sweat.

Right?

You can. You can have them break a massive sweat, but they don't learn anything.

Right?

So all of these kind of ways where we're hitting 1 out of 3 or 2 out of 3 don't get us the same result as if we managed to get all three of those components into that workout block. And what I usually say is the result is that they should be smiling, sweaty, and feeling successful. Smiling because they've had a good time. And also a little bit they're glad that it's over because it was hard. Right. Successful because they come, they've done the thing, it met their expectations. They have overcome some of the challenges that you presented them with. Like, hey, can you do 10 of these? Wow, that was hard. But great job.

Right?

And then sweaty, because again, like, we're not. We're not medical professionals. If they don't come in and get a workout, we're failing to meet their expectations on a base level as being what personal training is.

Right.

So that's the second block of that first session. And then the third piece is you've got to make a professional recommendation.

Right?

Where. So where you said programming, there's kind of an element of that. And what that looks like to me is we're going to sit down for a couple of minutes. I'm going to review and remind you of why you came in. I'm going to. I'm going to tell you a few of the things that we went through, what my observations were, and again, from really empowering place. So not, you can't do this, but, hey, we were able to do this successfully today. And then here's what I'd like to do more of to help you reach your goal.

Right?

So the scariness of the sales process, I think, often comes from, I really want to work with you. I don't entirely have the confidence that I'm going to be able to help you reach your goal, but I don't have enough clients and I really want to work with you, so please just do it. Instead, the ability to say, here's what you wanted, here's what I observed. Great job doing this. Here's what the plan is. Do you want to get started. That's sort of bringing that whole piece full circle, right? What's the point of screening and assessing somebody for only my knowledge? If I'm not going to share back with them some of what that means for them moving forward, then what was the point of doing it? So that's the system, right? We learn screens and assessments, we learn how to coach and queue up all the foundational movement patterns. We learn how to program based on their current entry point to a movement and then we show them what that programming looks like as they move forward. Because, hey, if you work with me, you're going to get stronger, you're going to learn stuff, you're going to move better, we're going to make progress. The program pacing is going to sort of match your improvement over time. It's not a static. Learn these eight exercises and you're good forever.

Right?

So that whole thing is sort of like the structure and what we hope trainers come away with when they are done at the end of the day on Sunday.

That's so good. So now I'm curious, you know, as they continue to implement the systems and structures that they, they put in, what I have seen in my life and in my career, I have seen a lot of trainers and I'll, I'll say trainers specifically because that's the majority of who I was work, who I work with, which is, you know, what I see oftentimes is how trainers make data driven decisions based on the outcomes that are happening from their program.

Right.

I always talk about guessing, testing and assessing. And what I see oftentimes is a lot of people struggle to navigate what's the next best choice. And when I say best, all I mean is that, that, you know, based on the data, what do they think the next thing to do is? Do I stay course? Do I need to course correct? Are we moving the dial? Is this adherence? And they start to navigate some of those muddy waters. Because learning and adaptations, as we all know, is not linear. We don't just go, it looks like this. And if you're listening to the podcast, I'm doing like a wavy arm. It's just not, it's not as linear as oftentimes it can look like when we're programming. So how do you help your trainers and coaches be discerning in their decisions based on data?

Love it. So in the PPSC course we teach the screen, the assess, the movement pattern, the queuing, the common strategies, and then we have this really cool visual which we call our pattern pyramids. So the six Foundational movements are squat, hinge, lunge, push, pull, carry. And just in case you haven't been familiar, we don't just mean loaded carry, we also mean carry is basically core. So dead bug and plank and side plank and half kneeling. Those are carry exercises because I am managing to carry my body in space, resist rotation, resist flexion, whatever it is. So carry is grip carrying, heavy stuff. But it's also just I can put my body in a position, maintain that, and then do a movement pattern on top. So that's it. To be a human, those are the things you have to do right now inside of, let's say the squat pyramid. On day two, we screen, we assess, we coach, we strategize around how to help people squat on day one. The goal is what is your appropriate entry point to squat? And the reason why I think this is important is because sometimes when we talk about screen assess and first session and consultation and all this stuff, the way that we talk assumes that every single person we meet for the first time has never exercised before, is deconditioned, is overweight, has pain somewhere, and in general they're a mess.

Right?

And that's fine. A lot of people come to us from that position. But what I also find really interesting is we get people returning to exercise after an absence. We get people navigating an injury, but they are good at a bunch of stuff. Like we, we get people on day one at lots of different levels. So the system doesn't work unless the system allows us to address day one with the person in front of us, no matter where they are in their fitness journey. So this is what I mean by entry point for exercise. If I take that older, deconditioned, overweight, weak, never exercised before person, maybe their entry point for a squat is a body weight squat to a box. And what I'm teaching them is getting into a nice neutral spinal position, bracing the abdominals and strong feet on the ground. And your shin and torso angle are parallel. You know what I mean? All that stuff, Maybe that's what I'm teaching them. But what if I walked into your gym for the first day? And part of why I'm looking to hire a personal trainer is like, man, with my new job, I've been sitting a lot, I've been traveling a ton. I'm not feeling super consistent. I'd really like some help kind of creating a plan that I can be flexible with as I'm traveling. And my former pro athlete brain has a really hard time with good enough. So if I'M not perfect. I do nothing. And that's why I need your help. I need your help getting back to good enough. Because it's a priority for me to exercise. I'm just having a little bit of trouble figuring out how to manage it with my current lifestyle change.

Right.

That is also a very real day one. If you give me a body weight squat to a box, you're right. And I'm not going to hire you because I could do a loaded variation quite easily. And so if our screening system is like, well, everybody starts on day one. Everybody starts with stability, everybody starts with foundations. That's not correct, that's not appropriate. Then the pattern pyramid says, okay, well a bodyweight squat to a boxer, even a suspension trainer squat is a very foundational layer which is an entry point for a squat. But a goblet squat is an option. A zercher squat is an option. A landmine squat is an option. If they squat well, we could add rotation. If they squat well bilaterally, we could go 1.5. And so what the pattern pyramid does is it just kind of puts it in order, which is like first do this, then this, then this, then this, then this. And at the very top is front squat, back squat.

Right.

Because that's a real thing for some people. They want to learn that and what we say is anywhere that's appropriate for them to enter, start there. If they want to do barbell lifts, they probably need to be able to do these things underneath. And if they don't want a barbell lift, if that's not important for them reaching their goal, they don't have to. There are lots of ways to create progress and progression through variety, variation, all the various ways that we can do program. So then to go back to your question, which was something along the lines of how do you take the data and figure out what to do with it? Step number one for us is that pain free training. The goal is to get and stay strong. There are lots of ways to do that beyond adding load in a linear fashion.

Right.

So the first thing is what's the movement pattern? The second place is what's the appropriate entry point. The third thing is who are they, what do they want, what's their goal and what do they have available? Where are they working out, what can they actually use? And then using that pattern pyramid, using some of our programming templates, blueprints, the structure that we provide, instead of staring at a blank sheet of paper going what do I do? Or instead of saying, I guess we'll add 10 more pounds this week. We've got a lot more options to play with that match. Human movement and human goals and human lifespan and realistically also human psychology, the element of fitness, which is be interested, stay engaged, learn something new, which is not just learn how to lift heavier this week. So it's not like a super clean answer because it's a tough thing to address. Right. But the idea for me is that within this pattern pyramid, we have this cool way of saying progress looks like added sets or reps, added load, different tempos, different exercise variations, different setups based on the needs of the person and ultimately all directed towards helping them achieve their goal. And that again, is where that interview is so important. Because if we don't know what they want and why it's important to them, then we're going to take a shot in the dark at, hey, the way I like to train must work for you, right? And we find a lot more room for variety when we have a better sense of like, oh, but what matters to you, right? Your agenda being more important than mine. I'm the bumpers on the, on the bowling lane and you're the one actually tossing the ball. That kind of becomes the difference then around how those pyramids help us create that progress.

So good. And I think that, you know, I asked my question through the context of being a high achiever, which so many athletes, you know, can, can relate to, because there's this idea of I need to achieve. I need to do it the right way. I need to do it the best.

When.

When in reality, all roads lead to Rome at the end of the day, for, you know, a lack of a better word or lack of a better analogy.

All.

There's so many different variations and combinations and ways to achieve. Achieve the goal as long as you're keeping them the hero and not you. And I think that that's hard for a lot of people. I think we're looking for that automated, systematic way of like, no, no, no. This is what I learned in my certification. I need to be able to do that. And every person's going to look and do and move the exact same way. And the reality is it's just not true.

Can I take your all roads lead to Rome as a jumping off point? Because I love it. Yeah, sure, sure. I think if we're talking metaphorically, I think that's a really great example of kind of the thing that I was trying to say. Let's say that in our textbook body weight and then goblet and then add a Barbell and then eventually barbell back squat. Let's say that that's the road to Rome, Right? So there's a little bit of a misconception around. As a personal trainer, my job is to be your travel guide to Rome. What if I don't want to go to Rome? What if I want to go to Ireland? I think a little bit of what the pain free training system does is reframes what our job even is. Our job is not necessarily one particular destination point. It's that can we make sure that our clients every day for the rest of their lives can walk down the road or can sit on their toilet and stand up from it, can go to the gym and feel successful? Regardless of. I have a ton of energy today. I don't have a ton of energy today. My knee's bugging me a little bit because I went on a big hike yesterday. I had a very restful weekend. My knee is feeling great.

Right.

So if instead we were able to reframe our job as, hey, I want to keep you moving forward. Understanding that Forward is literally 360 degrees available. Like, I can move forward in any direction. That I think is kind of the key to, like, you know what? I actually would just like to be as good as I am right now for as long as possible. And there are a million recipes or a million rows that are going to get me there. There's both. The frustration that that's like, but damn it, give me the roadmap.

Right?

That's. I get it. As a trainer, it's like, I really wish there was like one of two ways and I could pick which one works for my client. There's not. There's a million ways. And so how we make that easier is to say there's a million ways, but here's the system. There's a million ways. You can go to any city in the world, but you're going to have to do it right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot, right. And I think that's sort of what we're trying to get at because that's more realistic for meeting everyone where they're at and making sure that everyone can make progress no matter what's important to them. Inside of the confines of strength and health have to be huge priorities. Realistically, the research is in. Strength and health have to be big priorities. Nothing we do as trainers should supersede those two things as being overarching, important, keystone, foundational things.

Right?

We don't go on a diet that sacrifices health. We don't really endorse doing a bunch of flexibility and losing our strength.

Right.

So if we look at strength and health as being kind of the two ways that we're setting how we walk down the road after that, we've got lots of options available.

So.

Good.

So just real quick. You use this word. I use this word all the time.

Time.

And I heard you talk about it a little bit. I'm curious, does your certification cover it? I think that there is. And the word specifically is coaching. We talk a lot about coaching. And I'm curious because for me and in my experience with coaching and my, and my, I guess I'll say my path during, you know, training, coaching, one of the things that was really challenging for me as a coach was this concept, this idea of I can't do it for them and I'm gonna have to let them learn their lessons. So what are some of the ways that you help your trainers become coaches?

Yeah, I love that. I think similar to you, I probably had a moment. I can remember it. I know the client I was training. I know where I was standing, I know what exercise we were doing. I demoed an exercise, I said, do this 10 reps, off you go. And I watched her start to move. And in my head I was literally like, that's not what I showed you. What are you doing? And so I was like, in my first year of being a trainer, right? So I said, okay, great job. Let me, let me show you again. I want you to do it like this. And then I demoed it. And I was like, okay, now you go. You're going to get it this time. And she did it the exact same way that she had done it in the first set. And I remember in that moment going like, oh my God, what do I do?

Right?

And so I kind of started to realize at that point, you know, at that point I'd had 20 some years of athletic experience. Some of it on the field, some of it in the gym. I would say as a function of 10,000 hours, I could do most movements reasonably competently. Not because someone had taught me how, but because the body kind of self organized. And when we get into play as the way kids learn how to move, you kind of just, you figure some stuff out, right? So I had a moment where I was like, oh my God, what do I do with people who are intentionally moving for the first time at middle age, right? They've never played, they don't have any of this experience. And so at a certain point I realized, oh, being good at something, me personally is going to be really different than being able to communicate with my client so they can get good at doing the thing they need to be doing. And for me, interesting, I find this to be interesting. For me, that was group fitness. So at the same time that I was kind of getting into fitness, a big focus for me was group fitness. That's just how I happened to be invited into the industry. And what was cool about that was I had choreography to follow and I had a class format to follow and I had the music going, whatever. So there was this foundational set point. And then after that it was like you got to say stuff and you got to be enthusiastic and you got to kind of do it while you're huffing and puffing and demoing the thing at the same time. And so what group fitness did for me was it gave me a place to practice saying stuff to like 30 people. And then I could get feedback about whether the thing I was saying was helping that person in the back row do the thing better. And if it didn't, I could say something else and I could say something else until we got there or didn't.

Right.

But what it meant was that I got to practice saying stuff. And in a group setting that was actually less intimidating because the thing I was saying was right for somebody, maybe not quite that person yet.

Right.

And so I got to practice trying to get someone to extend their spine in a bent over row by saying four, five, six different things. And then I walked away with a bank of 4, 5, 6 different things that I could use to try to help someone extend their spine in a bent over position. By the time I was focusing almost exclusively on personal training, the thing that I had was a big bank of vulnerability vocabulary, a big bank of queuing. And therefore, if I said one thing and I didn't get what I needed, I tried the next thing and I tried the next thing instead of trying the two things I knew and then getting stuck and have nothing else to say. So I think I was lucky in the sense that the thing group fitness demanded gave me this really big leg up when it came to personal training. And then as I got into educating, as I got into helping my peers and then formally educating, I kind of saw the need to go, well, here's what the textbook says and here's what doing it properly looks like. And in a room of fitness enthusiasts who are interested in becoming trainers, you're going to see a much smaller percentage of movement variability. Most of them are going to be reasonably Good at it. And so in that live teaching experience was a way of saying, okay, great, you've got it. You know what it's supposed to feel like. What would you say if you saw this? And I would demo bad form, and then we would work on that. And through a lot of years of sort of figuring out what helped my students get to the point where they could communicate more effectively faster. Like what exercises, what activities, what drills, what head games, what homework, what helps them get better faster. We started putting a lot of that stuff into the PPSC course. And what it looks like is, well, it's about 50% lecture, and it's about 50% practical. And in the practical, what I'm now trying to do is draw out the. I don't know, like, sometimes stuff that rhymes works really well, or sometimes there's a cue that works really well for this thing, and we start trying to highlight that and really making sure that the participants have a chance to see it, hear it, practice it, write it down, and then put it in that vocabulary bank.

Right?

So I'll give you an example if I. If that helps. But when we talk about the core section, when we talk about carry, when we talk about posture, the way that we talk about it is pillar. So hips, spine, and shoulders, those all have to be in a certain position in order to be able to brace and then move, load, right? And we see things like people arching their back or people rounding their spine or rotating their hips. And those would be. Those would be moments where we are not maintaining pillar, right? So we're talking about cueing pillar. Is this really important thing that's going to translate through to every other exercise that people do? So we spend, I don't know, an hour on a bunch of pillar stuff. We get to the point where people are going, oh, my God, I've never felt my core like that. This is amazing. And then we go, okay, now think about how you would teach that to someone brand new who's just come back, their baby's two now, and they need to start exercising. And so we've created a cueing structure that we think does a pretty good job of most of the time, getting our clients to where they need to be. So, for example, set the bones, co contract, breathe, brace, move. That's a structure that we can use when we cue every single exercise. And as we, as trainers start repeating that sequence, inserting the appropriate anatomy for whatever the exercise is, we start seeing that our clients start setting up exercise better, moving better, performing better, feeling less pain. And so Again, there's a system for movement and then there's a system for coaching movement. And they need to be the same. Essentially. A trainer needs to learn how to move well, but then also how to teach moving well. And so that's something that I think has come in the last couple of years as we've been able to work with thousands of coaches. Right. And sort of be able to go well on Monday morning. Can they implement something new that makes the client session better? Yes and no. If we talk at them a bunch, Monday morning doesn't look any different. They come away tired, inspired, exhausted, fulfilled, whatever, But Monday morning doesn't look any different. We want as much stuff as possible in the certification that makes Monday morning different, better.

Right.

Where the client immediately goes like, oh my God, what did you do this weekend? Because I've never felt that before. And that's really a big focus for me in terms of education, movement education, right. Personal training education, anatomy is great. There's a certain amount of it that you need to know, but who cares if you still can't get them to extend their spine in a bent over position? So that's been the fun part of kind of diving in on a lot of this stuff is getting it to that point.

So good. So now in terms of your queuing pillars, I'm curious for you, how do you navigate making sure a client doesn't feel overwhelmed by being over cued? For example, especially when you have so many toolboxes and the coach is really struggling to like not, you know, get them to be in the set the bones in the way that they want you want them to be set, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So. And then I'm also curious, you know, what is your, what is the hardest position?

Lot of coaches struggle to cue, so I got really interested in a lot of functional training tools, maybe even you might call some of them unconventional. I got on board really early with trx. I've been using kettlebells for a really long time. You know, my own training as an athlete, like I didn't sit on a machine and push in one direction. Why the hell is this machine in my way? I need floor space. Right. So my own natural form or style of training was, was really more functional, movement focused. And so I, I think I had to figure stuff out to be able to deliver that type of training style.

Right.

And that certainly helped. But in general, when we talk about cueing versus over queuing, there's kind of two things to think about. And again, I'm going to go back to the pyramids. A body weight squat to a box is foundational, simple, right? As best we can. It's kind of the easiest version of that thing. Whereas a side facing rotating squat to press, it's still a squat. It's got a rotation in it, which is cool and athletic because the hips move that way. And a landmine is cool, right? It's still a squat. If you think about just the queuing alone for those two exercises, the squats of the box, we don't have too much to say. The rotating landmine squat to press thing, well, there's like a lot more going on in there. So if as a trainer I arguably make the mistake of saying, hey, new person, we're going to do a landmine rotating squat to press today, I'm kind of putting myself in a kettle of boiling water because there is no, there's no foundational understanding of the squat that allows me to then say, so now you're going to squat and rotate and press, right? So step one, when we're thinking about how do we cue clients for success, is like literally giving them the right entry point to the exercise. And in my mind, when I look at things like TRX and kettlebell and even mobility, flow and all kinds of stuff, one of the things that I get called on positively is you seem to say very little, but your clients move well. And I go, yeah, because the thing we're doing today that's new is this tiny little extra thing on a thing they got really good at last week, right? So part of programming, progression, cueing, coaching, all of that is being able to pick the right exercise for where the person's at right now, right? And one of the things I find myself saying a lot to trainers is like, look, mastery is actually just deeply nuanced and enthusiastic repetition of the basics, right. I think we see on Instagram sometimes, like, people will post like, hey, most trainers basically do some version of these 10 exercises all the time. And they don't really post their own workouts because that's boring. They post all this random crazy stuff because that's what people are going to watch and click on and right. So there's an element of that which is like, really a big part of programing is just like, the basics are best load them, train them in different schemes of characteristic, right? Strength versus endurance versus power versus right, Apply different tools to them. But like, a squat is a squat is a squat is a squat, and.

We'Ll do it from the moment we're born till the moment we pass.

I Mean, hopefully, I would love to be squatting until the moment I pass. Because the alternative is what? Excuse me, I need the bedpan. Right? So, like, yeah, basics are pretty damn important. So one of the things about over queuing is like, be careful. Have you given your clients something too complex for their current capability?

Right.

Regression does not mean it's easy, Right. We want to talk about simple exercises that are brutally tough. Go ahead and properly load a split squat. It doesn't matter how fit you are. It doesn't matter how athletic you are. That's hard all the time, no matter what, right?

All the time.

Yes, all the time.

The exercise I drive.

So honestly, that's layer number one. Are you bored? Because it's not about you. You got to give your client the exercise that is the best fit for them. And clients who work out two or three days a week are going to make progress more slowly than we are. Where we've already been working out for years, we work out every day. We have all of this experience with all of these patterns, right? So variation is earned, variety is earned. And a lot of times when we overcoach, the mistake that we've made is too much complexity before they were really ready for it. The second thing about coaching or over coaching really comes down to what learning even is. There are three stages of it. And I had a phenomenal reintroduction to learning in the physical space. For about a year, my now wife and I did ballroom dancing lessons. I had this grand romantic idea in my head that getting good at ballroom dancing was something that I wanted to do. And, hey, let's use the fact that we've got a wedding coming up as a. As a reason to get into it. So I moved pretty well. Beverly. I've got it down. You know, I can.

You're like, oh, this is no problem.

Pretty well. But you know what I can't do very well. I can't do Zumba, right? So, like, when I walked into ballroom dancing, I was. I was a baby giraffe. I had no clue what I was doing. I even remember saying to my very patient and lovely instructor that there was something about salsa that kind of felt like using Indian clubs. And she kind of was like, what's an Indian club? And I showed her video and she's like, well, that explains why your salsa looks the way it does. And I just. I just kind of laugh because obviously salsa is different, you know? But the three stages of learning, we have this very incompetent first level, which is like, I have to think really hard. And I'm trying to learn the words and turn the words you're telling me, into what my body's doing, and I can't even feel my body yet. And that's that first stage, right. Second stage is I'm still thinking about it really hard, I'm still processing, but I'm starting to get a little bit better at it. And then finally, after a lot of practice, I get to the point where I'm good at it and I don't really have to think. And I can tell you this, one year of ballroom dancing does not get you to that third stage, right?

Are you there yet? That's the real question. Are you at the third stage?

I mean, I've got one. I've got one Roomba routine that I feel pretty good about, and the rest of them, no, I am still thinking incredibly hard about it. So again, we kind of come back to coaching, queuing, and over coaching, we also have to kind of acknowledge, like, all right, well, there's these three stages, right? And. And people are going to move through those stages in different speeds. And I'm sure part of that is based on experience, but part of that is also just everyone learns at different speeds. And so again, when we try to. To give something that's too complex or if we try to progress people too quickly, imagine I'm giving you something brand new and you're still in the. I. I'm thinking about it. I don't feel it. I don't think I'm doing it right stage yet. And. And so some of what it takes is some patience. And so then let's get specific, right? If I were to think about how I'm going to help somebody learn a movement, start to feel it, get out of thinking, get more into feeling, well, then I've got some actual techniques, some methods that I can use to help them with that learning, right? So, for example, if you think about it, step one is really an isometric. So let's say I'm doing a split kneeling, bottoms up, kettlebell press. My arm is moving, right? But the isometric underneath that is a split kneeling position. And what do I need to do to have that split kneeling position be successful? Well, there's a certain hip mobility prerequisite, right? So that I can get my pelvis stacked on top of the femur in that bottom leg. I need to be able to resist rotation with my pelvis. So you often see people, when they step their right foot forward, their right hip hikes up in the air, and we Got to learn how to reset that.

Right.

And so, you know, when we go back to that sequence, one was set the bones and two was co contract. So set the bones is like, put this knee at 90 degrees and put this knee at 90 degrees. Every now and again, we've got one person whose hip anatomy might mean that the front foot needs to be a little wider for them to be comfortable. Fine.

Right.

And pelvis neutral. And spine nice and tall.

Great.

Now let's co contract. So squeeze the glute adductor, brace the core so that if I kind of shove you a little bit, you're not going to follow over. That's the isometric of a successful split kneeling position. They gotta have that first. Then maybe I can add a shoulder press or a cable row or a palloff or whatever the hell else I want.

Right.

So the isometric is kind of like the first place that I want to leverage, not over queuing. And I don't mean to say that every trainer should take every new client and have them do nothing but isometrics, but what it does mean is if you talk a little bit while they're setting up and you get them to a successful starting position and then add movement, you are going to have to talk a whole lot less than if you say, all right, let's go. And there are three reps in. And then you're like, oh, my God. Level your pelvis, drive your knees out, keep your chest up, pull your shoulder. Oh, my God. This is not going the way I want it to.

Right.

So the key is, in a polite and friendly way, kind of being in control at the beginning and being like, yo, let's nail the setup of that isometric position and then move. Because once we're set up there, we're automatically going to be way more successful. And that's my long winded way of saying, how do we talk less? Yeah.

And also, I also just want to finish this thought off too, because I know for me, I used to think that my value was in overkilling, and I think that that was, you know, obviously I don't do that now, but, you know, I think that as a new trainer, when you're trying to get the reps in, less is more, and we forget that.

Yeah, for sure.

So this has been amazing, and I want to thank you so much for pouring into me, pouring into the community, and I want to be mindful of your time. So anyone who wants to learn more about the cert, go work more closely with you. What are some of the best places that I can send them.

Awesome. Well, I mean, one thank you. I've also enjoyed the conversation. I can't imagine a day where I will not be excited about even the most basic stuff of being a great trainer, so it's always fun to find other people who feel the same way. I would point people in two directions obviously, with the majority of my work being with ppsc. You can find us on Instagram at painfreetraining or on our website get ppsc.com easiest place to find me is also Instagram. It's Logan3DFIT and at the moment I have a very lovely group of followers, but it doesn't overwhelm me. So I'm pretty good at answering DMs and stuff and I'm always happy to connect with anyone who's interested. Cool.

I love that. We'll be sure to link all of that up in the show notes. So thanks again. I really appreciate it. Thanks Beverly thank you for listening to.

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